How Undertale & Deltarune Create Fear

[@NezumiVA]

Pinned comment question: what non-horror game has scared _you_ the most?

[@cable_g0re]

m i n e c r a f t

[@cheshirecreeper3743]

Probably Deltarune

[@SerenaMidori]

Frog Fractions 2, since I don't even know how to categorize that game

[@Mayovanimates]

The dark closet scared me a little.

[@VallRoyArts]

Batman Arkham Asylum and walking around the entire place with no music on while paying attention to every detail of the game

[@quarth9396]

the worst thing about berdly's death is that the moment he realized something is wrong and noelle is genuinely afraid he dropped the whole smart gag and jumped to questioning kris and trying to protect noelle. he's up his own ass but he's not a bad person, he jumped to protect his best friend when he realized something is incredibly off

[@All54321]

And in the pacifist run, he just seems to be dense/unaware during some situations

[@whiskeredwolf4861]

“There’s nothing wrong with him. He’s just annoying.”

[@firewall_breach.8313]

Also during that fight is that if Kris gets downed berdly will tell Noelle that they can stop listening to kris they are down. And Noelle will say or well think "kris is down but...I can still hear there voice." Not exactly that but basically, it's telling you that you're the one doing this to Noelle not kris. That YOU are the monster.

[@issacthompson330]

It is a shame that when that fight is over, he has Fallen. If you do not know or remember, the Fallen State is essentially when a Monster is on their Death Bed. Their Soul still has enough magic to keep their body stable but they are functionally dead. The only characters to survive it in Undertale are the Amalgamates and we all know how big an exception they were.

[@quentonfrancis2616]

Been killing UT over and over again and same with DT.

[@PixelatedPerfection]

honestly, a quote from the game "Nefarious" fits your description of the genocide route: "The good guys have to win every time. The bad guys only have to win _once._ "

[@Hessonite_Dragon_Helen]

Could you explain this a little more? I can’t quite get what you mean Call me stupid but I don’t see who’s who 😅

[@lederp7151]

@@Hessonite_Dragon_Helen Good guys would have to stop bad guys multiple times to get them to stop, but if a bad guy won then there’s almost never going to be anything after that, good people could protect someone multiple times from death, but if they do get killed then the bad people win, how it relates to Undertale is, you could die multiple times by all the true heroes protecting the underground but the moment you finally kill someone then that’s all.

[@Hessonite_Dragon_Helen]

@@lederp7151 Ohhh! Thank you for explaining And yeah, that perfectly explains Genocide

[@lederp7151]

@@ishaalimtiaz6715 Oh my god, I never even thought about that, like the only time I can ever think of it being addressed in an Undertale game is in TS!Underswap and that’s an entire au not even made by Toby, legit thanks for telling me that, that really makes me think

[@Slipperyslab]

Slice was here

[@ChickpeaTwo]

I can’t do the evil routes at all. I even feel bad making Kris hug Ralsei because I didn’t pick up on the clues that Kris doesn’t like hugging people, and doesn’t particularly like Ralsei either. It’s so hard because Ralsei is scientifically designed to be the cutest, fluffiest boy.

[@diamoond11]

And also, I don't want to make Ralsei feel bad! He really appreciates Kris. It's sad to think nobody actually appreciates him as much as he does with them.

[@AstroAnalysis]

If it makes you feel better, Asgore's dialogue does specifically mentioning Kris not like 'this type' of hugs (paraphrased), meaning that Kris might not be negative towards hugs generally! Especially since there's dialogue implying Kris asks for a hug from Susie, whom they absolutely do like a lot. Furthermore, even taking the tea information into account, Kris doesn't necessarily _dislike_ Ralsei either, but seeing how Asriel leaving affected them, they could be a little defensive regarding getting attached to someone who's like their brother in many ways. That's how I interpret some of it, at least! I'm glad there's no text (like Ralsei's interal monologue/thinking) that implies Kris looked particularly uncomfortable, at least. I totally feel you though!

[@Twisted_Code]

Me neither. My conscience won't allow it. I'm too attached to these characters. And I especially don't want to force Sans to stop being lazy. That's practically torture to him...

[@rosegray4061]

@@Twisted_Code Funtime sans and chill Jevil is weird

[@tear959]

The player grew attached to Ralsei, not Kris

[@thecheck968]

I appreciate that even if the Sans fight wasn't relevant to your discussion, you understood your entire audience's collective need to vibe to Megalovania

[@pinkajou656]

XD true, true

[@Zombie14193]

and the spamton neo section. Short, to the point and understandable.

[@PWNDON]

I nearly cried hearing it because i hadn't heard it in so long

[@Garbo_trashcan]

also acknowledging the absolute banger that is Finale

[@originalnamehere470]

I really love how you can only get a “no-mercy” run in deltarune by using Noelle because she (and by proxy Berdly) aren’t in the legend Ralsei told, for Kris Susie and Ralsei THEIR choices don’t matter but since the legend never accounted for other lightners getting sucked into the story they’re free to do basically whatever they want in the dark realm it’s kinda eerie how we take advantage of that and force Kris and Noelle to do the snowgrave route JUST so that we can have that free choice to kill everybody again

[@wolfenden9805]

I'm 100% sure susie and ralsei are free enough to make their own choices despite being the so called hero's from the prophecy. There were implications where susie outright ignores whatever the player tells them only to do whatever she wants (eg: the ferris wheel scene and in her entire story in chapter 1). While ralsei only assists you while also acting out as your guide in the role of a darkner. Only to follow whatever the lightners intentions are. If anything kris is the one who's choice's don't matter in this case. Which could explain why YOU Don't get to change the ending. Only the routes.

[@dumbvillage9253]

Actually legends has abillity to choice, however, it is only because world wont just work well, like in neutral, berdly will have disabled arm, meaning his future might be not the best, so yea, effect is small.

[@drk-xr]

On the game side that might be true but on the meta side only *YOUR* Choice doesn't matter anything that happens can only be changed by their choices not *YOUR'S*

[@thedevildarksoul9727]

@@drk-xr Hence why YOU try to control Noelle

[@drk-xr]

@@thedevildarksoul9727 yep

[@vicenteabalosdominguez5257]

I love how the fanbase collectively created and adopted the name Omegaflowey. His transformation is never given a special name in the game (except for the credits where he is named photoshop flowey) but almost everyone agrees to call him Omegaflowey because it sounds cool

[@TheBodyEuphoric]

@@vicenteabalosdominguez5257 i think it's also because omega flowey is at the end of the game for most people, and omega is the end of the greek alphabet

[@Wobbmin]

Remember all those fanmade Chapter 2 Genocide Route stuff? How everyone was so fixated on the idea that if Chapter 2 DID have a Genocide Route, it would just be "Undertale Genocide but again" and play out the exact same with forcing Kris to kill everyone? Not _once_ did even a _single person_ consider that it could be something *_so much worse._*

[@umutefebozbyk6342]

Yeah man. Those fan made stuffs were supposed to dark but they were just edgy and none of them maked sense just like most of the Undertale AU stuff. But then Toby just had enough and said: *"Alright, you guys wanna see some dark shit? HERE IS THE DARK SHIT!"*

[@IcedTheLocalClown]

@@umutefebozbyk6342 *sr pelo scared scream intensifies*

[@Colddirector]

@@umutefebozbyk6342 The only AU that did being dark right was Horrortale, and even it never managed to actually be scary like vanilla Undertale is sometimes.

[@billybobevansss7068]

@@Colddirector ok, check out Axetale. It's horrortale but better

[@shadow_shine3578]

@@billybobevansss7068 by better do you mean not abandoned? Because if so where can I find it I feel hollow since it got discontinued.

[@momsaccount4033]

One small detail that many people miss is that when Flowey begs for you to not kill him, the text isn’t using Flowey’s voice as the individual letters appear… it’s Asriel’s voice.

[@leedlelel2373]

he changes to asriels face as well

[@car26]

well, It's the same person lmao so it makes sense

[@momsaccount4033]

@@car26 of course, that’s why it’s a gut punch

[@zhankazest]

@@car26 whats your first channel and why are you using your second one to comment

[@jezd2223]

flowey using feelings for the first time agaisnt a soulless murder lol

[@memeyartist5591]

can we PLEASE talk about how the player is very obviously controlling Kris, and how much more disgusting and horrifying it makes the Snowgrave route??? Because you're not just roping in a third party, you are FORCING Kris to ABUSE their childhood friend, and they can't escape from the players' control to stop you. Imagine the horror of that situation, an invisible hand choking your soul and forcing you to do unimaginably cruel things to someone you care about.

[@porfer0]

Then you realize that you were created just for a sequel to a legendary game

[@Jeduardo17]

@@yalovoyhznepomny that the player is a separate entity? Literally everywhere. From chapter 1 Ending when Kris takes out their soul, to chapter two multiple instances: in the ending, Kris taking their soul once again and doing things out of our control, Kris showing emotions after Spamton NEO pacifist fight (they react different if you answer "Yes I'm ok" (where they "sound not very sure of that answer") or "No, I'm not ok" (where they Scream the answer) both situations noticed by Susie and Ralsei), or after you find Ralsei and Susie in the Snowgrave Route, where Susie notices that there's something "off" with Kris. The game constantly tells us that as players, we are another character, different from Kris

[@tr1xtrr]

@@yalovoyhznepomny in deltarune there absolutely is a player in the lore of the game. The only ending of chapter one shows Kris ripping out their “soul” and controlling themselves. We’re left in the cage controlling the soul. That was almost damning evidence, but in chapter two, there’s multiple moments where the narrator says “Kris does x” or “Kris looks y” showing that Kris is the one in question, but in the snowgrave route mostly (from what I’ve seen personally) it says “You do x” or “You say y” (Direct example being the fight between you and Spamton Neo. When calling out for help, it says “Kris calls for Ralsei” and “Kris calls out for Susie” but when calling for Noelle, it says “YOU whisper noelles name”, the capitals being in game, not my own annunciation. Not only does this summon noelle almost instantly, but tell me how Ralsei and Susie weren’t able to hear Kris calling for them, but the moment Noelles name is said in a whisper she hears and comes to our aid. It was us saying Noelles name, beckoning her back to the party) Kris is also said to be acting more quiet than usual, more stoic, no expression to their face. Once again, after “killing” Berdley, Susie and Ralsei say Kris looks shaken up. If Kris was in control and wanting all this to happen, why would they be shaken up.

[@dumbprotogen]

​@yalovoyhznepomny Bro just said "You have evidence but I don't care". The "examples" you pulled up, are completely different games. Not only would it be boring for it to just outright say but it also just doesn't make sense with Toby's story telling? His entire thing is show-not-tell. Yeah it's indirect, that's the whole fucking point. Its been proven already that yeah the player, us, is a different entity from kris. It's been made pretty obvious in multiple occasions.

[@dumbprotogen]

@yalovoyhznepomny Please. Shut up, you don't know what your talking about. 1. No, I never said that, you brought up a theory with little evidence and put words into my mouth. That is a theory, without much evidence behind it. 2. Why do you specify "YOUR". It really just seems like your trying to put yourself on a pedestal or make it seem like my theories aren't valid. 3. You severely underestimate the amount of evidence there is behind the separation of Kris and the Player. Yes the birdcage is one of them and one of the most telling. There's also the specific separation between Kris and You in actions in the snowgrave route, on how You, the player, is controlling Kris to the do this. Additionally there's the Ralsei thinking scenes in which the Player is shown a different area while Ralsei talks to Kris. There's also the sans dialogue in the overworld where clearly We are the ones talking to sans, saying it's "nice to see you again" despite the fact Kris and sans have never met before this. There's so much more evidence everywhere that I could bring up but I'm gonna stop here because clearly if you don't listen, you're just too dumb to admit you're wrong.

[@tsb4]

The more I think about it, the more I realize that Undertales Genocide /Deltarunes snowgrave route is like what you'd expect from a creepypasta. Like it sounds so ridiculous if you've never ever heard of these games, but I think it works so well. Really just a hidden horror game tbh

[@cosmicspacething3474]

Tbh I want to see more games have a secret creepy pasta route.

[@MoxieCat]

"And if you kill enough people, you can talk to Spamton and he'll give you the Thorn Ring" "Suuure, Jan..."

[@lhumyaki]

I remember once comparing undertae genocide oute to classic creepypasta tropes... The music you usually hear being slow down, the empty towns, the smiley appearing instead of an exclamation mark, the fun character everyone loves who tells you ominous things and in the end has a secret really hard boss fight where he remembers that you've reloaded your save after you die,,, then the final confrontation with a character that looks exactly like the character you play but with a few differences that make them look creepier, who has a screamer if you dont do what they want, and completely erase your file. Oh and also if you try to replay the game after that, even though it looks like everything is nomal, at the very end you see it isn't.

[@AshenDust_]

@@MoxieCat that was exactly my reaction when I heard about Snowgrave

[@suezuccati304]

To be honest Undertale's Genocide Route does fit with Undertale's overarching themes.

[@DOSFrost]

I was kinda hoping you'd go over how Flowey is actually watching you progress through the game in Undertale but always just off screen if you're not quick enough to spot. I dunno, that gave me a slightly eerie presence when I turned back to check on something.

[@NezumiVA]

Funny thing about that actually is that I've seen it online, but never actually caught it myself while playing the game. Probably just on me, but I just find it kind of funny that I've somehow never caught it, and I bought UT on release day.

[@hahafunnyman6916]

@@NezumiVA all you need to do is go into a *l o n g* room like the Snowdin bridge or something, go all the way to the end of the room but don’t exit it and then go to the beginning of the room and you’ll barely be able to see him go into the ground.

[@whiteface513abandonedchann8]

@@NezumiVA two examples I can think of are the long room in which Toriel hides behind a pillar, and the Snowdin bridge. When you've cleared the rooms and finished the interaction at the end, if you backtrack instead of moving to the next room, and pay close attention, you can catch a slight glimpse of Flowey retreating into the ground trying to avoid being noticed, it implies he's been stalking you and planning across the whole game

[@RahulMaru3507]

@@whiteface513abandonedchann8 i caught him in waterfall once too (I think the balet shoes room)

[@AnonymousButNott]

You can also find him in the cooking show room in Hotland

[@androdino5074]

One of my favorite differences in the genocide route is something so small and insignificant but it really stuck with me, and that is the instant noodles item. Because in any normal route, it’s a silly little “oh haha it takes forever to use and then doesn’t even heal much” sort of gag item that really just adds to the silly absurdity of Undertale. Then, in the geno route, having it be a great healing item with the simple use line of “It’s better dry” is so raw and just evokes so much the first time you see it. It’s such a small detail but it really adds to how much the tone changes and how all the charm and silliness of the game is completely thrown out the window

[@bigbangpegasusmaster]

It actually works like that in some of the more serious fights in neutral/pacifist as well

[@dizzy_jump]

i don't think that's exclusive to geno, but preferring them dry anyway is the most psychopathic thing you can do in undertale anyway

[@handhelder823]

You don’t have time to eat it done. There is murder to be done

[@acornmaybe]

I ate noodles dry bc of this line, it's nice it's like chips but noodles instead

[@brainthebrian3690]

This dude really thought he did something here. Pretty sure this is Jaden Smith's youtube alt account.

[@MadamLava094]

Fun fact: I gave up when fighting Undyne. She won, she stopped me as the true hero. WHY DOES THIS HAVE 312 REPLIES. DO WE ALL JUST HAVE THE SAME SKILL ISSUE 😂

[@monke6912]

old turtle gives you tool and armor and take one snow piece

[@baryphobia]

Same

[@thesalmonunderyourhouse318]

Same lol it was too hard

[@haifisch100]

Same

[@JesusIsMyAgape]

Don't ever start killing us again punk!

[@apawcalypse9781]

I'd like to also add on, just a little thing, that if you kill all of the dogs in Snowdin, and any other combination of encounters to make your kill count at least 21, when interacting with the dog food at Alphys's lab you get the text "It's a half-empty bag of dog food. You just remembered something *funny* ." This text relies on the dogs' deaths in particular, as any other kills will just result in "It's a half-empty bag of dog food.", or 0 kills being "It's a bag of dog food. It's half full." To describe such a thing as funny really portrays how twisted you've become at this point.

[@whiteface513abandonedchann8]

Well, most people believe that's Chara speaking. But like said in the video, Chara is intended in Geno to symbolically represent the player

[@unboundsoul3582]

@@whiteface513abandonedchann8 given that Chara is meant to be a mirror for No Mercy players, there's a little overlap in the two mindsets. After all, the narration in New Home highlights a lot of characteristics of Chara themself that wouldn't come across as the players POV (big one that I remember is the coffin text: "it's as comfy as it looks.")

[@armageddongirl612]

@@unboundsoul3582 "There is no chocolate."

[@tarniabook3076]

The narrator literally says: "It's me, Chara" in the no mercy route.

[@tridreamer7144]

@@tarniabook3076 I think that’s just Chara being there, not Chara “taking over.” After all, the Narrator just talks about a “You” which is either Frisk or the Player as seen with how Deltarune deals with “you”s. The narrator never NEEDS to talk about you, they just do. So when Chara begins talking, that’s what they’re doing: talking. When they say “you remembered something funny” it’s implying, chillingly, that Frisk is laughing. Consider the moments when Frisk would move on their own in the Genocide Route. Perhaps, just like Chara, Frisk is also becoming a sadist.

[@reuv8441]

Somethings I found pretty terrifying are… *In the snowgrave route there is no true hero.* In the snowgrave route, there is no undyne or sans who wants to stop you for selfless reasons. The only people who ever try to put a stop to your actions are berdly and spamton. Berdly and spamton have both done things to lead up to this situation. Hell, Spamton intentionally gave you a weapon, knowing you would do evil with it for selfish reasons. He stops you for selfish reasons. *Sans didn’t stop you until all chance of redemption is lost.* Just a small detail, which could have many implications. *Kris genuinely doesn’t seem to want to follow through with snowgrave.* In the snowgrave route, after killing berdly and meeting up with Ralsei and Susie they comment that Kris looks shaken. Although it’s a small detail..I’d say it’s just a little evidence that Kris is not at fault for Snowgrave.

[@61010anna]

one thing that I see a lot in a lot of let's-players is how demoralized they get after trying to beat Undyne the Undying. once they beat her, they celebrate, the first times they celebrate at a main character's death. they don't stop or contemplate, take a breather, stay there in shock. they celebrate. maybe a brief moment of sadness follows, but I believe that the reason why Toby made the battle so hard was to "desensitize" the player to the character's deaths. you go through the remaining monsters, nothing changes. getting to the Sans battle, you notice how uphill the battle will be. death after death, your resolve strengthens. all Sans needs to do now is to get you to give up. but they don't out of pure determination. their resolve strengthens after each death, their goal seeming closer to getting achieved after each attempt. they don't realize it then, but they aren't just rooting for the ending of the battle, like a normal RPG. they are pushing to destroy the world that was onces so full of lovable, quotable, and wacky characters that you murdered for selfish curiosity. only after you beat Sans, the final hope for all monsters in the Underground do you realize that your harrowing victory meant nothing. just an empty and short-lived celebration of beating a videogame character. you once again feel that ever familiar feeling of guilt and sadness for the death of such a memorable character. and yet, you continue anyways.

[@typo1345]

Berdly attempted to be that hero, but to no avail. As soon as he realized something was wrong with Noelle, he immediately drops his stuck up smart kid act, and starts questioning Kris about what they've done to her, and fights Kris to protect Noelle, his best friend. And despite having good intentions, and trying to be a true hero in that moment... it was all for naught. He dies the way all the others did, if more intensely. Being a hero doesn't immediately mean you're gonna be triumphant, but that shouldn't deter you from trying. And even the most stuck up person still has a moral compass somewhere deep down. Berdly may act all up his own ass, but he still truly cares for his friends and would fight to make sure they're safe and ok.

[@ifyoureadthisv1]

More evidence for Kris not being fine with SG is that Kris’ actions usually involve Kris’ name before what happened, while they start to have “You” rather than “Kris” in the text when you manipulate Noelle.

[@sploofmcsterra4786]

Susie doesn't say you look shaken, she just can't interpret the emotion on kris's face.

[@Ark...........]

It's because it's not kris's fault it's the player's fault.

[@Kat-ff6bg]

I think another potentially TERRIFYING concept is the relationship between Kris and the player. It feels almost as if you weren't able to make your own body, so you just hijacked Kris'. The thing is, Kris already had a life before then. A life that YOU have the potential to ruin. Numerous in-game occasions, like after the pacifist Spamton NEO fight, show that Kris is a separate entity from you- a person with their own thoughts, relationships and opinions that you don't know about and just randomly trample over. So far, the ramifications of the player's actions on Kris aren't too huge- it's just things like how they look hurt when you interact with the piano in the hospital (Kris can play the piano very well, but the player can't and just makes random noise). But with something like Snowgrave? A route where YOU, the player, go against Kris' own wishes and completely, perhaps permanently, twist their relationship with a childhood friend into a manipulative mess. Kris doesn't want any of this- YOU do. And they're so desperate to get rid of you that they go through what looks like a good deal of pain just to be rid of the SOUL controlling them for just a few moments. Edit: like 40 other people basically commented the exact same thing as me but way better what the heck are you doing liking this why does it have 1k likes my notifications nooooooooo Edit 2: replies misgendering Kris a little, just a heads up (not pointing at anyone in particular but if that's an issue for you maybe don't check those out)

[@abcdef-ms9mb]

Yeah, I feel like one of the main plot points in future chapters is going to be Kris trying to find a way to rid themselves of the player for good without dying (since clearly they can't live without a soul for long). Ideally without the player knowing, letting the most observant of us notice this sort of behaviour only through little hints Toby likes to sprinkle in interactions and flavor text. I think it's very realistic that this could happen in the future, and I'm absolutely looking forward to it.

[@thealchemistking4063]

Well it wasnt exactly my first choice to be in his body, BUT SOMEONE DECIDED TO SHOVE OUR SOUL INTO HIM AND NOW WERE STUCK TOGETHER and i personally would like to use Red Buster on the asshole who did it.

[@whiteface513abandonedchann8]

@@thealchemistking4063 so what you're saying is that Susie supports the death penalty?

[@thealchemistking4063]

@@whiteface513abandonedchann8 are you implying she dosnt?

[@whiteface513abandonedchann8]

@@thealchemistking4063 no I'm implying she does

[@hahafunnyman6916]

Also, something *cool* about berdly in the snow grave route is that he looks serious in his fight. Like he is actually trying to help out his friend from the monster that you are. And another thing is that if during the berdly kris goes down noelle will say that she can still hear their voice, kris’ voice, telling her what to do. Literally calling out the player and saying that it’s *your* fault, not kris’ fault. It’s not kris that abused noelle, kris never wanted this, *you did,you’re the one that wanted this.*

[@TheTrueJevil]

Also in Snowgrave Neo fight, when you start calling out for your friends it goes like this. "Kris called out for Susie" "Kris called out for Ralsei" "YOU whispered Noelles name."

[@pandabanaan9208]

When berdly looks heroic you know something is wrong

[@hahafunnyman6916]

@@TheTrueJevil yeah I know. It’s a very crepi and spoopy detail and it also ties in with what I said about the still hearing kris and stuff.

[@garr_inc]

@@TheTrueJevil I have missed this one! That's a strong moment!

[@fandomguy8025]

​@@TheTrueJevil There is an interesting Chara parallel here too. You whispered Noelle's name. And she came. And killed for you. What does Chara call themself? "The demon that comes when you call it's name." While Chara isn't directly manipulated by you, they just learn from you & start helping you they are very similar to Noelle. Assuming this is for a greater purpose than just killing without consequence. To become stronger. Chara is implied in the flashbacks to have been a somewhat shy sort, hiding behind flowers. The monster you meet at the end is far more confident. The same is true of Noelle. They assume this was all about becoming strong enough to get rid of your enemies, something Chara was denied when Asriel refused to kill the Humans & let their plan to save the Monsters fail. Noelle assumes the exact same thing. I wonder... If maybe, as the game progresses & we do more Snowgrave routes with Noelle, if one day, Noelle will ask us if we want to destroy the only thing left to destroy, and then, we say no & she realizes. Realizes this wasn't for a reason, this wasn't to help her become stronger, that you just killed, in Noelle's case forced her to kill, because you wanted to & thought you could get away with it. And like Chara, maybe she'll punish us like we deserve. "It was *you* who brought everything to it's end. But you cannot accept it." "You think you're above concequences."

[@TheIrrelevantYT]

Toby is absolutely a madman. Horror games make you feel fear by taking control from you: your sight with darkness, your hearing with ambience and creepy sounds, and your movement with stealth and detection gameplay. Toby gives you complete control over what you are doing; the realization of your actions, the consequences, and the aftermath is what truly scares you.

[@reuniq4256]

Another unsettling thing that cements that Kris isn't the evil one here is during the snowgrave Spamton Neo fight. At the end of the fight you tell Kris to call for Ralsei and Susie, which doesn't work. However, when YOU *whisper* Noelle's name she immediately proceeds to (kill??) Spamton. The fact that she appears when you whisper her name has many other implications as well.

[@nopeuarentgettingmyname7887]

“I am the demon that comes when you call it’s name”

[@chrisrobinson678]

@@nopeuarentgettingmyname7887 holy shit. That makes so much more sense in the snowgrave run

[@KEYe454]

Yeah i think kris is scared so they whispers noelles name in fear because they dont want to witness noelle kill again

[@sheogorath6834]

@@KEYe454 No. The game distinguishes between "Kris" and "You" during this fight.

[@suckerman7gm]

@@sheogorath6834 Yeah, it is obvious Kris tries to gain control in that exact moment and prevent us from calling Noelle at first. But he fails afterwards as we whisper her name.

[@Concon12316]

Other horror elements include: The True Lab and the huge tonal shift accompanying it. Flowey being behind you at certain points, just watching and disappearing when you spot him. And obviously, W. D. Gaster, which is creepy in just imagining randomly getting his fun events on your first playthrough. Also there's the secret tree room in Deltarune, the garbage noise from your phone in the Dark World, and the ambience when you stand near the bunker in Hometown.

[@MarcyTheKindaCoolWizard]

Gaster's whoel situation is terrifying Imagine not existing like him You cannot interact with the world Nobody knows you even existed All your works, all your life proejcts, attirbuted to someone else, all your efforts gone, you cant interact with anyone i nany way, you mever existed, your beloved ones dont even know who you are, and all you can do anymore is *watch* Even more if you add the "self aware" layer that potentially could push anyone into pure madness, realizing not only that there's a higher plane with powerful beings, but that to them, your world, your friends and fmaily, all your efforts... are nothing but a game, nothing but small factoids avout your "character" and they have ultimate control of everyobe's destiny no matter what they do Imagine how terrifyibg that must be

[@Concon12316]

@@MarcyTheKindaCoolWizard *Have you ever thought about a world where everything is exactly the same... *Except you don't exist? *Everything functions perfectly without you... *Ha, ha... *The very thought terrifies me.

[@TheMantisLord50]

Also the faces in the basement in deltarune

[@zachcrawford5]

I got one of the "followers" on my first run but it was a blind run so I didn't know how special it was at the time.

[@nellymurkthewitch]

About the true lab, the "so cold" battle was eerie af, especially with that music and lines.. Imagine being melted into some indistinguishible mess with some other people, slowly losing your memories and personality, living an animal-like existence in some lab, unable to escape, or see anyone you ever cared for once again.

[@mayo_nnais3]

"For those of you who are living under a rock" Very considerate of you, especially towards all those monsters we trapped under a rock

[@elijahkeay3906]

Toby’s biggest strongsuit has always been to make the player feel exactly how he wants them to feel at any moment. Excitement? Joy? Fear? Terror? Confusion? Determination? He always knows how to play with your emotions

[@playmotherthankmelater]

I cried when Frisk hugs Asriel in the Pacifist Route 😭

[@Ark...........]

GUILT

[@xem_ity]

ive always thought this but couldnt put it into words-

[@socksinsoda9517]

The scariest thing about Deltarune is the fact that Queen only plays mobile games 📱

[@cillianstewart9441]

* *Berdly has left the chat*

[@haphazardlylad2572]

i agree

[@kingofcrap4414]

What's funny is that Queen clearly enjoys arcade games, she just wanted to piss Berdly off.

[@kenziebalhatchet3918]

@@kingofcrap4414 and that she is a computer so she likely plays other games

[@ZaCloud-Animations___she-her]

@@kenziebalhatchet3918 , I came here to say these. She was definitely just trollin' him. Being so well-versed on the internet, she KNEW what would ruffle his feathers. ;)

[@bdletoast09]

I really like how Toby designed the Weird Route's beginning. Even when you weren't expecting it at all, once you got a hold on Noelle, you might be tempted to try her attack spells to see what they look like. And then the enemy freezes. And stays that way in the Overworld. And it clicks in your brain. "This... This is now achievable".

[@pkmntrainerred4247]

And even then just freezing what's in front of you is not enough to trigger the route. You have to backtrack hunt down every enemy in the overworld (Sounds familiar?), trigger specific interactions with some NPCs, get an item that hurts Noelle when she wears it, and then make her kill her Best friend who tried to protect her when he realized something is seriously wrong You really can't just accidently go down that path unless you're one hell of a lucky (or unlucky) bastard.

[@bdletoast09]

@@pkmntrainerred4247 Yes, but it's still pretty easy to find it by yourself, which is something I really enjoy. The Genocide Route in Undertale was rarely encountered randomly by player who didn't know about it because it takes some time to hunt monsters in the ruins before you get the But Nobody Came flag that triggers the route, and almost nobody would just grind the first level of the game when they're already clearly destroying every encounter. This route feels more organic in the sense that, once you found the frozen sprite in the overworld, backtracking becomes very intuitive because you want to see if something will happen.

[@pkmntrainerred4247]

@@bdletoast09 I agree there, I was trying to point out that you have to do very specific things deliberately to trigger this route in a fashion si.ilar to undertale genocide. You can't accidently stumble into it, you must deliberately do specific things to trigger it, the kinda stuff only the curious type would do.

[@ShyGuy261]

A quote from a silly indie platformer, that surprisingly fits the fights against Undyne and Sans and the Genocide run in a whole: "That's the funny thing about Heroes-- They NEED to win every time. The Villain only needs to win once."

[@anna48792]

what game?

[@ShyGuy261]

@@anna48792 Nefarious. You play as a typical Cartoon Villain that kidnaps princesses and fight the heroes that are meant to protect those princesses. The boss fights are pretty fun, since you are always the guy in the big bad robot.

[@lynchie2073]

@@ShyGuy261 i love nefarious its so good, i wish it got more recognition

[@ShyGuy261]

@epic ok If you say so... I didn't read through all the comments before I posted, but ok. I admit after reading the comments, there are similar comments that were before I commented, but that doesn't mean I stole it. I just had the same idea as the people who commented the same. Don't just assume someone stole something, just because they did the same thing as someone else before them. Maybe they just had the same thought individually.

[@gabusdeux]

@epic ok needless edge, may want to dull the razor a bit

[@lizardhats8637]

there's also something to be said about the spamton neo pacifist fight, ESPECIALLY the ending where everything stops cold and the puppet just drops dead. spamton is wrapped in wires and speaks normally, resigned to becoming an object to help kris and their friends break free of the players control. it's so impactful and i LOVE how it parallels kris' struggle with identity and autonomy

[@bushramanoo]

God. why did you have to right love in caps

[@zephytime8196]

For me, Spamton is actually the most unsettling character presentation Toby Fox has written so far. What at first glance appears to be a broken toy climbing out of a dumpster muttering to himself is actually a person, and he gets very aggressively interested very quickly in Kris, who is actually visibly afraid of the man. He's difficult to understand at first, and projects himself onto Kris, cackling before punching the dumpster in sudden rage. Then he goes right back to his sales pitch like nothing happened. *Then* he demonstrates that he knows more about Kris than anyone should. And he wants something from them. And won't take no for an answer. There's a constant oscillation in Toby Fox's writing between seriousness and comedy, but Spamton turns the frequency up to uncomfortably uncertain levels. His shop details this further, with the janky, downsampled circus music, and one-time-only monologues that are, again, frighteningly direct and yet so difficult to disentangle from the garbled mess of his thoughts. *Something* shuts him down from talking about the knight, *someone* tries to contact You through him, and worst of all, we get the briefest flash of coherence where he remembers for a moment all he's lost. Much later, the Spamton NEO fight has him desperately pleading and screaming for Kris to take some kind of deal that nobody but Spamton and Kris understand. "Do you want to be a heart on a chain your whole life?". Kris's whole situation is another kind of horror, and the only person so far who seems to understand it is a man shattered beyond comprehensible speech by the knowledge. And you give him the freedom he thinks he wants, only for he and Kris to realize the only freedom for them is total abandonment. It's easy to lose sight of all this because of how thoroughly the community has embraced Spamton and memed him to death.

[@ExistingKirb]

There’s also the implications that Spamton might not be as insane as he makes himself out to be. Compare Spamton’s role in the normal route to the weird route. In the normal route, spamton can barely speak in coherent sentences without spouting nonsense. The prices of the items in his shop also wildly change to match his “insanity.” In the weird route, however, his sentences while still a bit odd are MUCH more toned down in comparison to the normal route. When Spamton sells you the thorn ring in his dumpster, the price never changes, it’s always one specific price…. *1997.* While nothing’s been confirmed and this very well could just be me speculating too deep, it is an interesting detail I picked up on.

[@cawareyoudoin7379]

The horror of Spamton is exquisite!

[@kattastic9999]

Every single step of his quest, to me, felt like I was _ending the world_

[@corndogbark5915]

He’s almost like the Deltarune equivalent to Sans, but I don’t even think that’s a good enough comparison

[@TheOffside0423]

Dude wrote a whole TDA

[@lookw]

One thing i noticed about how the final-esque fights in undertale is how the final bosses fight you. maybe cause ive been playing games for a while but their style of fighting also factors into the overall theme of the fight. In the routes the bosses kinda fight like game players themselves would fight against an opponent. -Neutral route: Omega Flowey: He fights by overwhelming you with rapid attacks but more importantly relying on save states to manipulate the fight. just like a person using a emulator or TAS (tool assisted speedrun). you see right at the beginning that flowey saves one save states then uses a 2nd one to try and throw you off with how you react to their attacks (they reload save states between or even during attacks forcing you to react to the sudden reset). They are save scumming to get their desired ending. -True Pacifist route: Asriel Dremeer: Honestly this fight is pure spectacle. he uses alot of fun interesting attacks but overall its your love of the game that you have shown allowing you and him to have alot of fun with his attacks and connect emotionally. you cannot truly die so its more about connecting rather than fighting. As he has the power of 7 souls he could have just crashed the game like omega flowey but he was focused on playing with you and wanted it to continue as long as you did. -Genocide route: Sans: Honestly his fight is interesting for multiple reasons but what stuck out to me is how he doesnt fight you normally or even conventionally. He fights like a person doing a low level run would do against a overwhelmingly powerful enemy. His stats are the lowest in the game (1hp, 1 atk, 1def) but when doing a low level run you use any and all tactics to beat your opponents (cheap shots, system and glitch abuses, turtling, etc). he uses any and all of those tactics against you (attacking first with a complicated new attack, attacks not doing straight damage but poison that tics down at a constant rate, attacks ignoring invincibility frames, attacking during unconventional times, dodging all attacks, interfering with choosing actions, betraying you after you let your guard down, etc). that is what i feel scares alot of people (and excites them). When the game uses tricks like these against you like you are fighting someone who is the same type of player as you are. it feels cheap at times but there is a part of alot of players that would do the same back at them. See people doing no-hit runs of all the bosses, abusing glitches to speedrun, etc. it shows a understanding of a players psychology that hits close to home for alot of people. Deltarune is definitely aiming to show something similar but more on how you controlling a person instead of a blank avatar (or self insert) can come across like.

[@fall2743]

Another thing with sans is how he uses your tactics (I didn't read this completely bc too long, will read later) like attacking first, kill does betrayal kills, etc.

[@JohnSegway-RainingLamppost]

Damn I'd never thought about that with Sans, that's genius 👏

[@sindrevangenrobberstad2889]

@@drawingdragon Really cool analysis. I think it's also neat that, in the Sans fight, Sans isn't trying to win: he's trying to make you, the player, give up. He's pulling out all the cheapest tactics he has, just with the desperate hope that maybe, just maybe, he can overwhelm you with guilt or make you too frustrated to keep trying. As a player, you can't lose, only quit.

[@deelightfullp]

I would like too say that jevil uses thought but avoidable attacks. He wants a fun fight. While spamton Neo is desperate using any and all attacks

[@lookw]

@@sindrevangenrobberstad2889 Yes Sans knows what will happen once you reach asgore. See its another thing i noted about undertale. Normally (or just as originally concieved) you would only do a genocide run after you had run through all the other neutral endings. Basically once you clear the game completely you would go on the route that requires killing everyone (*just to see what would happen*). Once you finish that then what? there is nothing left in the game itself to do or discover. you would then stop playing after finishing the run. as you would then feel that there is no need for undertale to be installed and erase the game. that would destroy their world and therefore Sans doesnt want the world to end. you can be as evil as you wish and sans would only get angry at you. However if you become a world-ending threat........thats when he cant afford not to care anymore. Now that the genocide route is common knowledge with challenges and content that the main game does not have its become a route that people play in the game much earlier. specifically for the challenge of facing the bosses in the geno run is the most common reason i heard of (though there are numerous reasons why people decide to do it). Sans fight is designed to throw the player off and hopefully get you to at least stop. That rarely works however as it is appealing to see a fight that runs counter to expectations in such a way.

[@PsychadelicoDuck]

The other nasty thing about Snowgrave is that, asides from the characters directly involved with it, everyone _tries_ to act the same as on a regular run. No one knows what's happening, except the player. It feels even more violating than Undertale did, because at least there everyone knew things had gone horribly wrong.

[@user-xe1jg9pj1s]

Toby fox is an amazing developer, dude NEVER under-delivers, heck, you could even walk up to a wall outside a massive hotel in an alleyway and it has dialogue that tells you that it's "just a wall"

[@user-xe1jg9pj1s]

When did i make this comment??

[@kamilozo776]

Playing deltarune made me feel dissapointed when i try to interact with a trash can in a game and it doesn't have any dialogue

[@DynoSkrimisher]

I love how the main antagonist, Flowey, doesn't act like a genocidal maniac after you clear the true ending. He says "Dude, you may see them as variables, but you'll be dragging them away from paradise." and adds that the power he had, was what you were fighting to end. The roles were reversed here, You are now in Flowey's position, you have the power he once had and now the choice is laid bare. Reset everything and do what Flowey did or never touch Undertale again since everyone, and frisk, has their happy ending. It's really meta and wholesome.

[@hmwhat5429]

that's what makes me love his character, the fandom always just puts him on a complete evil role or just ignore him, he's such a deep and interesting character and deserves way more recognition

[@speedattack]

META1!1!1!1!(METTATON REFERENCE)

[@Banana-uk4ir]

I'm very surprised you didn't mention the fact the the player and Kris are two different characters, in the Spamton Neo Snowgrave fight the lines say "Kris called for Susie, Kris called for Ralsei" Kris proceeds (no joke intended) to scream for them, but with the last interaction you have, the last choice, the last line the game says in the fight before it ends was "you whispered Noelle's name" and then it ends, you go to hometown and, unless you visit Noelle at the hospital and took her watch in the dark world, it goes on like normal.

[@ZaCloud-Animations___she-her]

Yeah... How it's "Kris" for the first two, but then "You" for the final.

[@camiblack1]

@@ZaCloud-Animations___she-her There's also the whole thing of if Kris goes down in the Berdly fight, Noelle can still hear their voice, and likely doesn't realize that that's not her childhood friend she's hearing. Then again I think there's even a subtle tinge of horror in the normal route when you look just beneath the surface. That said, I think the even worse part is how Toby has implemented very creepypasta-like elements for the I'm gonna treat this like a traditional RPG and killem all routes. UT had it affecting every single game afterwards unless you did some specific things, and just how the Snowgrave route changes the ending ever so subtly (mostly stuff in Hometown). I think Snowgrave works a little better for that feel because UT's "No Monsters" route was easy to accidentally do if you skipped past everything urging you to spare monsters, Snowgrave was datamined, and involves 100% concious, directed, player driven choice to do.

[@aconfusedmistake5251]

@@camiblack1 Snowgrave was originally discovered on accident. While they did datamine it to find out how to continue, the beginning was found on accident.

[@rai1578]

I'm SO glad you mentioned how everyone essentially uses Chara as a scapegoat for their own actions in the Genocide route. That's my biggest pet peeve in the Undertale community. Edit: I got so absorbed in your quality commentary on Undertale that I completely forgot this video was about Deltarune.

[@edwardbo4666]

It's about both.

[@ketaminepoptarts]

player: (single handedly kills as many monsters as possible) player: wow i cant believe chara would do this

[@fgnmghdshd6056]

So fun fact, if you repeatedly do genocide, even chara of all people says there is something wrong with you

[@edwardbo4666]

@@fgnmghdshd6056 etac chara: NOW WHAT DO YOU MEAN "OF ALL PEOPLE!"

[@fgnmghdshd6056]

@@edwardbo4666 Chara hates humans iirc and is fairly indifferent to monsters. They did want to finnish things, but doesnt want to relive it over and over and over and over. Chara isnt good persay, but also doesnt enjoy killing for the sake of killing. Its wrong to pin the blame on the char for killing everyone, but they still arent a good person like the other chars (barring maybe flowey)

[@PixelCherries]

This is such a great analysis on the darker aspects of both games. The "horror" that both undertale and deltarune create have always fascinated me and you described all of it perfectly. Great video!!

[@baulvicork5199]

1.4k likes 0 replies? Wut

[@grendthelizard4716]

"Awwww deltarune is such a cute game!" *Snowgrave has entered the chat*

[@CT--Flare]

Heya, I’m genocide but worse

[@flmobilemusic4258]

@@CT--Flare the worse part is you '' technically don't do the geno route, you force someone to do it for your own desire, really messed up.

[@fluffybunny0124]

@@flmobilemusic4258 Yup. As a youtube viewer, we ask some players to do genocide routes. When they're regreted, we enjoy their remorse and "clean" our hand. You got my words, are you ?

[@arandomquark5922]

_It's so cold_

[@comicbillcomicbill1656]

"Haha, but it'll still be cute if we stay away from Snowgrave, right?" *Spamton Neo has arrived*

[@Echoingsunflowers981]

21:10 I completely agree, it always lowkey annoyed me how people used chara as their scapegoat. Especially when chara is the one who finishes us off in the end and serves as a reminder in any other saves we go down from that point forward of what we did as a form of consequential revenge for killing everyone they knew when they were alive

[@cawareyoudoin7379]

They are, in a way, a force of justice. They want you to atone for your sins, and don't let you walk away scott-free.

[@ThunderMouse1999]

I just realized. The player uses Noelle to freeze everyone Technically, Noelle is responsible for Snowgrave. Noelle is the scapegoat. Yet Snowgrave still feels bad

[@cocoabeanzwantstopuzzle]

@@cawareyoudoin7379 No, not a force of justice. They're your accomplice (they count down the monsters from Snowdin on, and get mad when you don't kill Snowdrake ("Comedian got away. Failure") for example). Them being a menace is the game telling you "Congratulations! this is what you've done! Now the world's going to be destroyed because you decided to be an apathetic murderer!" Destroying the remainder of the world is not even remotely justice, it's a continuation of what we put the monsters through. Now if you said they're our karma... yes. I strongly agree there.

[@ManicFiction]

​@@cocoabeanzwantstopuzzle Yeah. Plus it's even worse that Chara, despite hating Humans, love all of monsterkind, yet a Player's determination to keep on killing had them turn their backs on the only people they've ever cherished and become something far worse.

[@Tripleseven09]

@@ManicFiction They got used to the killing, they became numb to it, if you do genocide mutiple times for some sick reason you begin to become numb to it, flowey became numb to it, Chara is just a third party in this example, the more you do something the more you get used to it, he said it himself, in other games you may grind for exp without even blinking

[@oldred890]

I think on your closing note about Toby's ability to combine the horrific and the joyous to make each highlight the other well... I have two things I'd like to discuss that encapsulate that point perfectly, with very different results. The lab. When you go in, there's real concern that someone who you may or may not personally like but you *know* other characters like and regardless don't wish harm upon is going to put themselves in harms way. Slowly you go through the carnival of horrors, seeing things deeply unsettling compared to the entire game thus far, but... there's touches of softness. The monster is about to kill you while you sleep in bed! Wait, it just pulled the covers over you so you'd be comfy. All of this hitting crescendo, your concern about Alphys having reached a fever pitch... only for her to turn on the lights and reveal she's fine, and that the abominations you've seen are just innocent monsters who are hungry and rightfully cranky given their situation. On the flip side: Spamton Neo in the pacifist run. He's regularly unsettling, targeting you when you're alone and insisting you be alone, making you go through the deeply unsettling experience that is the basement, scaring the shit out of you when he drops from the ceiling (even when you see him coming). On the flip side, he's also hilarious, and you can feel a certain sympathy for what's just beneath the surface. You fight him with your friends, cutting his strings, trying to free him. He realizes in these last moments how wrong he was, determined to redeem himself and live not for power, but himself and his friends. You cut the last wire.... and he falls, lifeless, to the floor. And the screen lingers on his body. Afterwards we see he wasn't actually dead, and he becomes an item to join you on your journey, but it's still completely off... and then the "cooldown talk" happens, and one of your trusted friends, one of the cutest beings in the game, tells you it was meaningless and not to think about it, despite the game clearly wanting you to think about it. In a lot of ways I consider the pacifist spamton neo fight to be the dark version of the lab. It follows the same isolation, the same build up of horror with softer elements... with a *completely* different pay off.

[@wooperman7]

I think the omega flowey fight was terrifying for another reason. It made you feel like the enemy. Like you can’t win, because he has the power to save over, like near the end. Or when you die, you realize that you can’t do anything. But what scares me the most, is that we had the souls to save us. I imagine the omega flowey fight is what every other monster sees when they fight you. Except they don’t have any souls to save them. They are trapped in an endless loop of looking like they’ve won, only for you to come back. That’s what scares me.

[@diamoond11]

The design for Omega Flowey is very disturbing to look at on it's own. The elements like the explosions and many other things are too realistic it doesn't "fit" the aesthetic of the game or any other thing on it. That's why it's extremely surprising and disturbing visually. But mentally it also plays with you, with the things Flowey says about save files and everything, you're going against something, a character that it's self-aware. More elements to that, comes the way the fight never saves (unless you reach to the point it does) and the game crashes everytime you loose. Then Flowey calls you out on losing.

[@nellymurkthewitch]

Yeah, but monsters can't remember anything after you reset, well, except sans

[@wooperman7]

@@nellymurkthewitch Exactly

[@suezuccati304]

@@nellymurkthewitch does he? Because if you kill him and reset he won't give it a second thought.

[@BuckBlaziken]

Toby: It’s called the No Mercy Route, not the Genocide Route. Fans: but Genocide sounds edgier and therefore, cooler.

[@JonnySpec]

I think I've heard that internally, Undertale calls it the Murder route. Maybe the best name for it would've been "LV grind route", since that's literally what you do.

[@aimeevn3869]

🤣

[@ChaosEnthusiast]

i just call it no mercy because idk how to spell it and a few other reasons lol

[@genderenigma8276]

"No Mercy" Is a separate Neutral Route: to kill those in your path. As opposed to Genocide, which is "Seek them out to kill them." i think. don't quote me on that.

[@SonicntZane]

No mercy is used to categorize a run where you don't necessarily grind, but just never use the mercy button. Basically just a normal rpg.

[@okreally6660]

@ 16:25 the cut to black where you see your own reflection, intentional or not, gave me goosebumps

[@61010anna]

oh my god you too

[@angrymushroom26]

The thing with Chara I always found the most twisted, They play the part of the naration through the game. even the "it's you!" in the mirror and such. While they aren't the most stable of individuls themselves, when Asriel and them go outside, they have a goal, the same goal that Toriel divorces Asgore for not doing, Go out of the barrier and getting 6 more souls to break the barrier. Chara isn't just some mindless monster, but when you get a hold of them, Frisk is basically possesed wuth their spirit. and through your action, you either push Chara just like you do Noelle and make their anger at the world that treated them poorly then caused the death and suffering of their found family over the top where everything should be destroyed. Or. you can go through the game peacefully, establish the connections that they lost or never had as what seems to be a very neglected child til the Dreemurs. Getting them from a state of being unable to rest, to knowing that in some long, roundabout way, they did what they wanted from the start, to help their found family be happy and free.

[@NezumiVA]

Yeah, exactly. That's what I find so frustrating about most people's takes on Chara and their characterization. They're not a _perfect person_ but they're not a _demon_ either. It's our choices that ultimately define how far in what direction Chara will lean, because they are our mirror. At the end of the day though, they are still just a child who was likely suffering to have even considered climbing Mt. Ebott (a place that is said to be one that no one returns from) in the first place. Also, buttercup poisoning is an *insanely* painful way to die, so they must have both had very strong feelings about freeing monsters (a noble goal), and unfortunately, about wanting to die, to have even stuck with that for as long as they did. It's very concerning to me that people would see a writer like Toby Fox, who is known for giving all of his characters nuance and depth, and assume that he would make a suicidal child _pure evil_ for basically no reason.

[@joaquinjovane4226]

@@NezumiVA hmm i feel like you are putting abit of your bias here

[@joaquinjovane4226]

@@NezumiVA also the only one who is truly evil is asriel

[@marylii04]

@@joaquinjovane4226 HOW is Asriel truly evil..?

[@getsouped]

@@joaquinjovane4226 bruh what are you even talking about

[@melovespoon]

I think one of my favorite details about the omega flowey fight is that his first theme sounds like it's laughing at you and he makes sounds like he's sarcastically saying "ow" when you hit him for 1-15 dmg. When finale kicks in and you reach about half of his health he genuinely starts screaming in pain.

[@moppermop5287]

"It's good to get stronger, right?" "Together we eliminated the enemy and became strong." "You whispered Noelle's name." "The demon that comes when people call it's name."

[@andreassmed2255]

I’ve come by a pretty horrifying theory a while ago. In Deltarune in the hospital waiting room there’s a bead sliding toy. If you inspect it on a neutral or pacifist playthrough, Kris will comment that the beads are “grimly marching along on their set path” In the Snowgrave route however, Kris will take notice that the BLUE bead has broken off. Undertale was all about defying convention and subverting expectations. In one of the many versions of the neutral route, if you’ve been playing the game like you would any other RPG (killing everything you come across, but not actively seeking out encounters and using the save system to change your choices) Sans will comment that you’ve been acting like you already knew what was going to happen. The meta commentary here being that you’ve been playing Undertale like you would any other game, so you’re acting like you would when playing any other game. So if Undertale was commenting on how you play games like it, could it be possible that the bead sliding toy is commentary on how you’re playing Deltarune as if it was Undertale? That you’re simply doing what you’ve come to expect of a game like Deltarune? If in Undertale the way to get the best ending was by breaking away from the standards that games before it had set, would the reverse be true in Deltarune? That’s a pretty grim idea. I know one thing for sure. Toby LOVES subverting expectations.

[@moppermop5287]

@@andreassmed2255 I'm pretty sure that Sans just tells you that if you play through the game two times. The thing with the bead toy is that Toby just seems to like analogies like that. If you visit the Annoying Dog's room, you'll find that they sleep on the metaphorical fabric of reality full of holes that needs to be "patched", next to a puzzle that's always "finally coming together." I also don't think that Toby would make a game with the moral of "it's a good thing to kill everyone." I mean Toby IS all about breaking expectations, but there's a right and wrong way to do that.

[@jaydatboi5859]

@@andreassmed2255 how does the blue bead specifically fit in with this?

[@pewterkat]

@@jaydatboi5859 The blue bead represents Kris breaking away from the path we expect them to be on, whether for good or for ill.

[@operaghost1825]

@@pewterkat I believe the blue bead was Berdly being ripped from the story because you killed him - in the pacifist run he’s still there so the bead is too but you removed him from ‘going down his path’

[@LoakaMossi111]

Chara being both a metaphor for the player and a character in their own right is one Undertale's few stumbling points for me. It doesn't help that the more likeable version of Chara, Narrator Chara, isn't very obvious to the average player. I think blaming Chara for everything is wrong, but I understand why so many people made that mistake. Toby kinda muddled the metaphor too much. The Weird Route in CH2 doesn't have that problem, so I guess he learned! I've seen *some* people still assigning some blame to Kris, but (1) a lot of those people are starting from an interpretation of Kris' other actions through both chapters, and (2) they're usually a knee-jerk reaction from people who just saw the Weird Route for the first time and haven't had time to think about what just happened. One thing that I admire about both murder runs is that Toby isn't afraid to still be funny during those routes? The "GEEETTT DUNKED ON!!!!!" scene is iconic, but one of my favorite lines from Toby is "Kid! I'm busy becoming [GOD]! Go play [MINECRAP] or something!" I know people complain about genres getting muddled (specifically complaining about comedy being in every work nowadays) but the humor on the Murder Routes kind of serves a purpose? It's like the game is punishing you for your edgelord antics by continuing to be at least a little goofy. BTW, this was a good video! I'm surprised it took KZbin a week to recommend it to me!

[@ohnaliirony8997]

Honestly I'm really glad somebody pointed this out. I feel like Chara was sorta poorly executed, despite the otherwise great character. Toby wanted Chara to be too many things. The one forcing you to atone for your sins? A tragic child who committed suicide with hopes of saving those they love? A manipulator with a lot of skill and not a lot of remorse? An angel of freedom? You?? Toby really should have picked one, or made a seperate character. Hell, even using the excuse "Chara kept resetting like you and messed up the timeline hence the inconsistency" could have gone somewhere yk?

[@chillagerr]

Chara I feel was also overly analysed, even in this video. Some things are really just as simple as they seem, and drawing ties to other things makes a long and confusing thread that just barely makes enough sense. To me, Chara is the player. If Toby is really trying to simulate how a player would normally play the game, then Chara's narrative lines up nearly perfectly. Starting out friendly with the Dreemurrrs, then after the loss of Asriel, a close friend, becoming more and more desensitised until it doesnt matter at some point. To me that's why you never see Chara at the end of pacifist. You did not lose a friend, and therefore you arent in the same position as them. Essentially, if Flowey is the more literal sense of the player reloading saves, then Chara is the player's emotions. Starting out soft, then slowly boiling down

[@late_prince8945]

@@ohnaliirony8997 It also doesn't help how independent Chara is after the Genocide route. They talk to you, as if they have higher morals here, even they aren't actually as monstrous or pathetic like we are. They even bargain with us. You can just "Stuck to the one interpretation" but it's hard to just ignore everything else that is out there. But another thought. Maybe Chara isn't us, they are their own character, but they are like old characters in another games, blank with no personality, only a vessel for the player. There is a character to them, and a story, but they never actually shine throw. But then it also messes a bit with what Frisk is.

[@ohnaliirony8997]

@@late_prince8945 Yeah, that's also a really good take on this. Tbh I think this is one of the reasons Toby was scared the game would blow up, I wonder if he's dissatisfied with Chara too.

[@cawareyoudoin7379]

YES YES GOD EXACTLY!!! I wholeheartedly believe the Narrator Chara theory, but I do also agree that it wasn't obvious enough in Undertale, and that Toby is, in a way, making up for it in Deltarune with Kris (a character very clearly separate from the player, and very similar to Chara visually and plotwise).

[@coreDesignix]

How *thin* the line is between comedy and horror are and how heavily both rely on subverting expectations and established standards to pull the rug out from under you is one of my *favorite* genre analysis rambles and it makes me go absolutely buckwild. TobyFox is an absolute master of surprise in both of those forms and I *love* that aspect of his work.

[@matti.8465]

Something else that makes the Omega Flowey fight horrifying is the fact that you are no longer in control. Right now, Flowey has the most determination, meaning he's the one who actually controls the timeline. You're only able to return from death because Flowey lets you. Even when you DO beat Flowey he just turns back time. You're no longer the player, you're the monster.

[@PuddleOfCats]

One thing thats sad about the fear in undertale and deltarune is that theres almost always the people who will do ANYTHING to not accept that they did a bad and saying literal kids are the true villains and how the game does literally everything it can to go "no, this is your fault" Though that could just show how effective it is at being scary and really getting to the core of people

[@caramelmousse8509]

It really feels like some people just forget how to read when it comes to the main message of utdr. Like, I get that analyzing media and understanding the meaning behind it isn't easy for everyone, but damn. Its right there!!

[@RichConnerGMN]

nice pfp

[@-hello6177]

What again is the plan created by chara The player is obviously controlling everything, not within the lore, chara is not an unwilling we're told that to our face very clearly in the genocide dialogue, especially disagree option, as well as shown if you try to do a pacifist run after Dope you like the narrator char AU's but that doesn't override the actual character

[@SonicMaster519]

@@-hello6177 It's not Chara's fault that you commited genocide though. You're the one who pressed the FIGHT button, the one who went out of your way to kill everybody. It's not like Chara controlled your controller or anything to make you fight, you're the one who did it. So blaming it on Chara is just ridiculous.

[@Whocares158]

Players don't have to care. Players can do whatever they want. You know this is true

[@kathana_da]

"Chara is not evil, Kris is not evil" FINALLY someone said it!

[@joaquinjovane4226]

asriel is evil

[@GrippyMiss]

@@joaquinjovane4226 Asriel is NOT evil. Asriel is soulless and got bored of eternity.

[@funnybones98]

@@GrippyMissbut flowey is genuinely evil since he's incapable of feeling love, right?

[@ManicFiction]

​@@joaquinjovane4226 When Soulless, Yes.

[@ManicFiction]

​@@funnybones98 They know. They're saying that if it wasn't for Asriel's "unique circumstance" aka being Soulless, They would not be evil.

[@missmax2492]

I genuinely think that Chara is the flavour text. It feels fitting, like how I swear there's a point during the pacifist route where it goes "..." In relation to something about Asriel. And it makes sense, everyone who knew Chara thinks that Frisk is similar to them, to the point of Asriel convincing himself that you are Chara. Which is why my secondary theory is that You corrupt Chara. They are a child, they wanted to help in life and they're very impressionable. So when they begin to give a sick smile because of everything you've done, how you've taught them to act- well, I find it compelling, to say the least.

[@NezumiVA]

Agreed. That and there's other examples in the narration text of things Frisk wouldn't know. And the narration in No Mercy takes an even more overt knowledge over things from Chara's perspective, like things about Asgore's room/belongings, or what he keeps locked/etc. Which of course, isn't to say anything about their actual demeanor, rather that it's rather reliable to assume _from_ that evidence that the narrator _is_ Chara in all instances, and their attitude/morality is, yes, informed by _our_ decisions, and not some innate trait of Chara's on their own.

[@Hex.A.Decimal]

I'm a year late, but I agree. And I would top that off by suggesting 'frisk' is the reincarnation of Chara, and that's why their SOUL is notably absent. We are shaping them, they are shaping us. This also sets the entire game into motion, Flowey called, and we- the reincarnated friend- came to help. We take over their SAVE, one more time from the beginning.

[@vissersixty-nine6246]

I LOVE this analysis, and I particularly like your discussion of Chara!! Having them as a twisted reflection of the player isn't a take I've heard before, but it's really interesting (although I'm very very biased for "Chara was a sad kid who needed therapy and also is the narrator" lol). I would love to hear your take on more of Chara's lore. I think one of the most nightmarish things about the No Mercy route is how they start to slowly spiral alongside you. The bag of dog food.... (starts crying) And the ways in which Chara parallels both Flowey and Noelle's character development -- how by being kind you can convince someone who thought he was long gone to give himself another chance, and how thoroughly you can manipulate a kind person into doing evil. And all of that being told through the NARRATION. Undertale is just so fucking insanely good.

[@NezumiVA]

I’m actually in complete agreement with that take narratively speaking! I was mainly speaking from the perspective of mechanics and the intention behind it as it pertains _to_ a No Mercy run but yeah I completely agree about Chara being an otherwise well intentioned party.

[@whiteface513abandonedchann8]

My take on Chara is very convoluted. I believe them to feel malice towards specifically humanity and have a very complex plan to try to kill them off, but that they harbour no actual ill will toward monsters. Idea goes like this >entice player into Geno >use world as blackmail for their soul >have them do Pacifist again (note they even say this themself to you) >now free to get rid of humanity Of course, the neat thing is how open-ended the character is, with which you can come to many many different conclusions. I do think they, in that particular route, were intended to reflect the player symbolically, and I do agree it's on the player for going the whole way through, but I also believe Chara wanted it from the start and did what little they could to encourage it without saying "Hi please kill everyone" since that would just make you not want to. Their hatred for humanity that's mentioned several times, plus now lacking a soul, means they're willing to get everyone killed to put themself in a position to take revenge on humanity for whatever exactly it is that made them hate humans (which I think we all agree seems to be a traumatic upbringing and unchecked mental issues). I do think in another world, they could be a good person, but Asriel says himself they were kind of problematic even in life

[@fandomguy8025]

The parallels between Chara & Noelle are very interesting. How they both assume you're just teaching them to become stronger. How they both are shy at first (Chara hiding behind Flowers in flashbacks) but become far more confident by the end of the run. And how, at the end of Snowgrave when all hope seems lost against Spamton NEO *Kris* it's emphasized, calls out for Susie, who they truly consider a close friend unlike Ralsei, calling for her twice, then calls out for Ralsei when she doesn't come... But he doesn't come either. Finally, *You* whispered Noelle's name... And she came. What is it Chara calls themself? "The Demon that comes when you call it's name." I wonder if these parallels will continue, they have no reason not to! If maybe, one day, if we keep going the way we are with Noelle, one day she will ask us if we want to destroy the only thing left standing and we will say no. Then she'll realize. She'll realize none of this was for a purpose, we killed, or "guided" her to kill because we wanted to & thought we could get away with it. "It was you who pushed everything to it's edge" "But you cannot accept it." "You think you're above consequences." And then, like Chara, she'll punish us like we deserve.

[@whiteface513abandonedchann8]

@@fandomguy8025 Chara never assumed anything, and was very brazen in the game's events (after their death)

[@fandomguy8025]

@@whiteface513abandonedchann8 They assumed you were killing for a purpose & assumed the reason they were brought back to life was to learn this from you. This is stated explicitly. "At first I was so confused." "Your guidance" Sound familiar? "You and [Enemy] teach Noelle how battles work."

[@notavailable2374]

When sans fakes sparing u in his fight and says “come on buddy, do you remember me?” I legit felt my heart break

[@BigDaddyKnez]

12:34 Basically everyone: *chooses themselves to do genocide route* Also everyone: Oh my god guys I can’t believe CHARA would do such a thing

[@joaquinjovane4226]

everyone really everyone aha what about the chara defense squad on the undertale subreddit, what about the people who didn´t do genocide is that everyone?

[@MaddyDoesStuff]

@@joaquinjovane4226 And? Like Flowey said: they still watched.

[@Thatonegamer182]

Probably because flowey is absolute bullet hell also that laugh

[@sappypunz]

"cHArA ForCEd ME tO Do tHat!!1" is literally what my friend's friend said when _they_ were killing everyone in the game.

[@Ark...........]

Fun fact: Chara is short for Character.

[@GhalanSmokeScale]

If you pay attention to the moment where Noelle thinks about stepping off the switch to let Kris get hurt or even killed... You can see her walking animation start up for just a frame or two as you're moving Kris through the deactivated laser. She didn't only think about stepping off the switch. She almost *did it.*

[@real-aether]

the merciless route is so ..disturbing. snowdrake’s scream/roar when hit still makes me sick especially the ‘but nobody came’ music, or the fact that you’re reminded so often that nobody came, there’s nobody left in the area. you killed them all

[@Baseiscc]

I’ve consumed everything (known) this game could possibly offer and over the years I’ve become desensitized to genocide’s true horror. This video brought back that awful, squirming dread that I felt the first time that I heard of its route. After so many years this game still has an impact on so many people, it fills me with determination :)

[@anthonynixon3706]

:)

[@zerotwo6814]

Something I really like about this video is how it also kind of addresses something that i've noticed with Deltarune a while back. I remember back around the time the first chapter was released, Toby Fox said something about him not thinking he could make people feel the same thing that Undertale made them feel, and so he wanted to make people feel something "different". With that being said, I feel Toby has absolutely succeeded in this, and the way he handle the horror aspect of Deltarune is a great example of it. It is no doubt different, but it's still in his style. It's familiar, but still new, (and, to be honest, in several ways just better). This is exactly what I feel Deltarune is like in comparison to Undertale overall: Familiar, but still different in the absolute best way.

[@Zer0Perplexity]

I just realized, you can visibly see Noelle start moving her feet right at the point where Kris would've been in the path of the laser to get hit. But she stays in place instead.

[@Male_Parent]

Snowgrave route literally gave me chills during that hospital scene. Also I'm so glad that omega flowey wasn't spoiled for me. Genuinely terrified me the first time. It's not as pixelated as everything in the game is. The theme bops though.

[@liondyi]

Your lucky, I got spoiled so many times that by the time I fought him I barely showed any emotion..

[@Im_A_Nerd]

20:46 i always assumed flowey overkilled asgore to make damn sure you couldnt get his soul and cross the barrier, because even flowey would realize by then "ok yeah this isnt good"

[@TheSkyGuy77]

So he basically did a good for once in his miserable life? Huh

[@nameless......................]

when you kill him he gets fear, you FORCE emotion out of a soulless fucking being

[@genderGodhead]

Something I find interesting is the fact that even Kris themself is a character outside of you. The only time you do not control them is when they take the heart out and are finally able to be themself. So in the Snowgrave route, not only are you manipulating someone to kill for you since you can't, but you're controlling someone into manipulating someone else to kill for you since THEY cannot kill. Also I don't know if Kris is evil, we'll have to figure out in future chapters. They're either the Roaring Knight and created the Dark Worlds this whole time or after learning about being able to create fountains, made the one at the end of Ch. 2. I'm excited to see where it goes. I expect Kris will end up being the main antagonist (maybe not villain) personally, some sort of vendetta against you controlling them.

[@pokeblue596]

Kris being evil may not be known for certain, but he is definitely not good

[@ArturFlintchannel]

@@pokeblue596 Kris is actually like Chara in Undertale, in terms of a personality - a trickster, but on a leash of The Player now. So, Chara could do that, probably, if lived in a real world, not the underground.

[@bumbabees]

@@pokeblue596 considering how they are said to react to certain unsettling events, im not sure i believe that. we dont know enough about them yet to say a lot for certain, but i highly doubt theyre by any means a cruel person. might be a bit of a little shit, bit weird, but that doesnt mean theyre bad. they care about people, at least.

[@dunno7844]

Totally unrelated to the premise of this video, but I just realised: if Mettaton + Mettaton NEO were to test Spamton’s mechanics, then there’s probably going to be an Omega Flowey-esc battle in later chapters; I’m scared.

[@misterzygarde6431]

I remember having nightmares from Chara’s face at the end of genocide in Undertale. Nightmares aside, could you imagine if the Pacifist route in a way… tainted the genocide run? Imagine trying to start the run in the ruins, however, the attacks you do on the enemies, they don’t do much, eventually they flee before you can get a few more hits in. Eventually, when getting to Toriel, she mentions how the monsters noted that you tried to attack them but no matter what, you couldn’t do that much damage. She and the other monsters find it strange that humans who’d normally be able to off monsters easily are so…. weak, they can’t even kill them. You can’t get past Toriel unless you offer mercy with her dialogue changed to having her think that you might have realized that maybe trying to kill every being with a pulse isn’t always a good idea. Thoughts on such an idea?

[@clarise-lyrasmith3]

For new players, I personally think that this would instill the idea that you can't actually attack the monsters which would probably make them shut off the game because they won't really find it fun. It's a good idea despite this, I think that it'll work better with a select few enemies instead of all of them.

[@galaxypig4685]

An interesting idea, but I don't think that would likely work in practice, in terms of the story. If you intentionally compromise what is ideal so badly enough, that invites tyranny. That's in the form of Chara, who at the end of this 'No Mercy' run (because some people like to be sheltered from even the mention of such horrors), not only kills you the player, but also commits a hostile takeover of your save, and never leaves it no matter how hard you try to reconcile in that save. The only way to get rid of her would be to erase the save file completely (which is a prospect that such a tyranny when made, cannot be peacefully resolved.) I'm not sure how becoming saintly, so to speak, beckons a malevolent creature fully intent on murder for murder's sake to be peaceful. This isn't to shoot your idea down though - it's an invitation; perhaps if you can ponder this enough, you can find a way to end tyrannies peacefully (that would be very great). Martin Luther King Jr. did something similar when fighting for black votes in the 50's and 60's, perhaps you could try and study him for starters.

[@abcdef-ms9mb]

It's a funny thought to flip the narrative on its head, but I don't think it morally makes much sense, right? Because it's just like real life - you can do a lot of good in the world, but if you turn evil and start trying to hurt people, all the good you did doesn't really change much, you're still an awful person. Just in general, good things don't taint.

[@l0sts0ul72]

I feel like new players wouldn't find this sort of gameplay fun, but it's a really cool concept nonetheless. I was gonna try to make a game similar to Undertale, do you mind if I take some inspriration from this?

[@ninjawiz7932]

I don't think that would really work because part of the point of the No Mercy run is that if you are really going through with this, you don't really care. Sure "Frisk" or "Chara" might not want to do this, but they have no say in the matter, not until the end at least where Chara has had enough of your shenanigans and nukes the universe just to keep you out.

[@drek.475]

I just wanna say I massively appreciate the use of OFF's soundtrack! The lonely air of those songs perfectly match the feel of the darker routes in Toby's games

[@cosmicspacething3474]

It would be really interesting if Kris eventually straight up rejects the player in the end and becomes the “Sans fight” of Deltarune. The Player being the one controlling the Vessel maybe?

[@kirtil5177]

or kris' friends and perhaps even all your victims that survived trying to help kris get rid of you for the final fight

[@TheSkyGuy77]

And then Gaster appears, erasing everything from the board. Thanking you for your survey answers and then Deltarune shuts itself off.

[@sylentnote]

That would be really cool. I love how Deltarune plays with the concept of the player being the villain

[@theobserver314]

Noelle: I... I can't. It's not the way of friendship. Kris: *Dew it.* Noelle: *[Freezes Berdly.]*

[@spaciousflame]

It's not the Jedi way.

[@TheTrueJevil]

*Proceed*

[@heelturn2]

get rekt nerdly

[@theobserver314]

@@TheTrueJevil *FINISH HIM.*

[@kingofcrap4414]

Replace Kris' name with "Player."

[@Ubik_Bubik]

In my head, Deltarune can be summarized as "The Player as Home Invader". The idea that you are a foreign entity recontextualizes the game permanently as a horror-comedy inside my brain folds. Then again it isn't just that, it's a whole blend of genres but idk.

[@pastelsploosh8914]

What makes undertale super interesting and so terrifying is that unlike the usual horror genre, or even psychological horror genre where events in the game affect you, it's you affecting the game. Even games like doki doki lit. Club, a fascinating game that broke the 4th wall exceptionally and terrified people, undertale and deltarune are the consequences of your own actions and make people realize that you make things happen, and these consequences are YOUR doing. This is why kris rips the soul out of their body every single chance they get, Noelle hears a voice that is not Kris to freeze people, and even after you kill spamton neo, it is very apparent that Kris cant control even their own dialogue because of you. Unlike frisk, the shell that you can fit inside to display who you truly are, kris is their own person who is under your control. Undertale, the pacifist route was to prove flowey wrong, the genocide, the enemy was you. I believe the true enemy would be you in deltarune, it's apparent.

[@whiteface513abandonedchann8]

I'd like to point out that DDLC is a satirization of the fourth wall-breaking gimmicky games out there. People for some reason treated it like a serious game and I find that kind of funny because it's never taking itself _completely_ seriously. It feels like it's parodying old .exe Creepypastas from 2014

[@ucnguyen6375]

Definitely this, the horror in Undertale and recently snowgrave Deltarune always come from the players 's choices. You are never forced to experience it, the game go out of its way to stop you or give you every chance to stop but you keep proceeding anyway. So when you get the consequences, you truly feel like you deserve every last bit of that consequences

[@rockhistoria2537]

So in a certain way In Undertale, you are a protagonist, the """hero""" by certain extents Though in Deltarune, you are an naturally antagonistic force, which at the least will be annoying (every single time someone says kris is acting out of character, caused by the player's choices) and at worse it can do serious damage (see the entirity of snowgrave route)

[@whiteface513abandonedchann8]

@@rockhistoria2537 without the player's help, you would not be able to seal the fountains. You are not naturally antagonistic in DR. Toby Fox would not create a game with the moral of the story being "you're doing bad things by interacting with my content"

[@rockhistoria2537]

@@whiteface513abandonedchann8 oh... I see, sorry for the misinterpretation

[@mayabailes1653]

I think one of the scariest scenes from these games (for me) is when you do a Pacifist Route after completing a Genocide Route and, after the credits, you see Frisk's face change to Chara's. That is chilling. Even though you did a total reset and none of the characters remember you slaughtering them before freeing them, you will always remember it.

[@Concon12316]

And if you choose to leave Toriel the photo will have everyone's faces scribbled out in red and Frisk replaced with Chara.

[@bumbabees]

people always interpreted that as chara "possessing" frisk, but i always took it as chara refusing to let you go without consequences. refusing to let you forget about what you did. they are your mirror, your shadow. they follow you everywhere, always a haunting reminder of your decisions.

[@PH0B0PH1L1A]

on the topic of "undyne can kill you 100 times but you only have to kill her once," i always thought it would be a cool concept if a boss in a 4th-wall-breaking game like this where the boss kept track of how many times they killed YOU, and you had to kill THEM the same amount of times. maybe the first time you kill them, they start to fade away, then they go "just 34 more times and MAYBE i'll give up!" it would be horribly unfair-feeling, but i think justified, especially if it's made clear you only have to beat them one MORE time than they beat you. you'd memorize their attacks and be an expert by the end. and if you give up, hey, they win! that would be hellish but really interesting.

[@ziongamer6905]

What an amazing breakdown of Toby’s work. I have to say that as someone who just LOVES his games and someone who’s working on their own game, it’s a very useful study

[@MattJDave]

I live for the mini rants about how players try to distance themselves from their actions through Chara/Kris blaming.

[@samuelborchers8114]

Sans legitimately beat me in the Geno route. I was on the last set of moves in the game, and I decided to stop and finish the next day... But I didn't. I came back to find the my save file had somehow been reset. Through some glitch, through some infuriating bug, my murderous conquest was ended. I attempted going into the code to reach the room I had been in, increasing my level, doing everything I could to get to that point, and yet I could not reload the progress I had made. Up until this video, I saw it as a flop on my part, but maybe, just maybe, failing was a better conclusion than the one I've spectated over and over again. This franchise is truly one of a kind.

[@KnightmareDigitalis]

I just realized. The character collect screen really shows off Kris's relationship with the player. You expect to join this new world much like you did in Undertale, as an unnamed character who can interact with the world around them. But that's not an option. You have to uproot Kris almost entirely to experience the world. You had a choice to leave at any time, but instead, you choose to keep going. Its worse than only experimentation, as now you have friends. You can choose to kill others, at the extend of Ralsei trying to give you a lecture. But as time goes on, you realize Kris isn't the only one you can change...

[@pablopereyra7126]

A game where the only winning option is not to play... seems kinda contradicting to have 7 chapters of it

[@pinxelated2799]

@@pablopereyra7126 This is just like Off omg

[@OEBlackman]

@@pablopereyra7126 That may just be the point, after all, the player is the villain, so why are you playing?

[@kattybratt1353]

i think its worth mentioning that ten minutes of silence when you reopen the game after a merciless route and the changed pacifist endings just cuz it reminds you how horrible you are

[@fandomguy8025]

Yeah, this is something wasn't mentioned, this is when Chara stops being us, they say it themselves (especially if you do other genocide runs) "You and I are not the same" Chara, unlike us, has principles. They don't try to undo what we did because they believe in consequences & they'll make sure we will face them.

[@RoxasDreamkey]

I got to experience Undertale the first time this year and I was running on the mechanics of Deltarune, to say the least I accidentally killed Toriel and I'm not joking when I say I feel absolutely terrible for it. She's just a video game character but I had grown so Immensely attached to her that my accidental killing of her crushes me, I believe the encounter with sans in the Hotel Restaurant was enough to make me wanna close the game and not play it again. I don't even have the heart to do a hard reset. I begrudgingly continued my way through the neutral route, I'll never sleep peacefully knowing I murdered Mom The game is fantastic, it can pull so many strong emotions from a person via atmosphere alone.

[@edwardbo4666]

If you don't reset and give them there happy ending. Toriel would have died for nothing.

[@ethanotoroculus1060]

37:48 I'm genuinely tempted to subscribe to you on the spot for just this ending, that was so beautiful-

[@frandolled]

this video was so incredible!! everything from the bits you voice acted, to the lovingly made edits, it's so well seen to us all by your hard work.

[@shinypikagaming]

Sometimes I kinda wonder about Flowey killing Asgore like he did. Mettaton mentions during his fight, that you’re not just a threat to monsters, but to humans too. Even Flowey’s terrified, and you’re about to have the chance to reach the surface by taking Asgore’s soul, so he makes his move, ensuring you don’t get it. You’ll never get it. Even if you truly destroy all monsters, you’ll be trapped too. You’re the only monster worth containing now.

[@imthecoolestguyalive]

Okay, we could discuss the horror, but you already did that for thirty minutes, and did it very well, so I'd rather just comment on how the ending, the description of the finale gave me literal chills, and I teared up upon hearing the music and your words. Aside from Toby being an insane composer, and the visuals being great, I noticed you have a VERY poetic way of speaking, it's like when writing your script, you finish every paragraph off with beautiful writing. Like... Wow. Also, finally, someone who doesn't paint Chara and Kris as villains, and actually respects the characters' pronouns, sheesh-

[@lochedness3831]

One thing I noticed when watching both Undertale and Deltarune (specifically Chapter 2 of Deltarune) is that control and manipulation is one of the themes found in both games. In Undertale, while your choices do matter, you're controlling Frisk and their decisions. You're the one making the decisions, which leads to consequences that causes fear to you. Flowey asking us to just leave the characters AND Frisk alone to move on with their lives means that we're an obstacle because we simply have the choice to just start everything over and control Frisk whenever we want again all because we're curious. In Deltarune, it's very obvious that Kris does not like us being in control of their life, just like how Frisk was, (even though it might not be shown as much). Spamton being introduced and having similar struggles like Kris (being on strings, being controlled), is an important detail to take note of because like Frisk, Kris has little to not control over situations. Both are on strings, which is us. We're the puppeteer and they're our puppets. Imagine having a life where one day someone takes control of you and you can't do anything about it but watch? Living in fear of knowing that one day something bad will happen. I'd like to imagine both Frisk and Kris being in genuine fear and shock watching their previous friends be hurt. It's like if you watch your own friends and family getting hurt and you can't do anything about it. This is exactly why Snowgrave route shows it in a way where you can see the perspective of someone who is in control being influenced by YOUR decisions, via basically controlling and manipulating them. Someone you knew. I think that's also why people get personally connected to these characters, you've grown so attached to a character that doesn't exist yet you relate to them in a personal level. Curiosity is sure a fun but very scary thing to happen in both games respectively. (PS. I love the observations in the video, there's some that I didn't really thought of or taken consideration of! Great video. Also, this is just from my knowledge and my thoughts that I had from both games, so I may be wrong on some parts.)

[@danny_boi3537]

In Undyne's final theme (Battle Against a True Hero), the slow part of the song is the reflective part. It's not a slow point just for the sake of being slow. It's the final cry of a dying world, pleading with everything it has left for you to stop this insanity. The game knew what you were doing long ago, probably before you even left the Ruins. You were given so many chances to stop killing, but you trampled over all of them like you did to all those innocent monsters. From there, the game threw out so many cues, that in a _whole world_ full of monsters, you were the only *real monster.* Another example of this is in the title itself, Battle Against a True Hero, as in: _you are not the hero, and haven't been for a very long time._

[@Art-zp1qg]

I’m really liking this video, and I’m realizing how excited I am to see the horror of the upcoming Deltarune chapters.

[@TheTrueJevil]

Considering we're gonna have Toriel and most likely Undyne in the dark world, I have a feeling it ain't gonna go well for one of them

[@whiteface513abandonedchann8]

@@TheTrueJevil they're both incredibly powerful even just outside of it, mind you

[@jtlego1]

@@whiteface513abandonedchann8 Well Undyne is physically at least. Deltarune!Toriel hasn’t really shown any indication that she’s the fire magic adept that she was in Undertale.

[@ExcalibeonSwordofEeveelutions]

@@jtlego1 If I remember correctly, Noelle's dad did say that at a party Toriel once threw a pie at his face an it sent him across the room into the snack table!

[@JonnySpec]

Well, I don't think Chara is the player, but... considering Chara's dialogue, killing everyone wasn't their choice, it was ours, they even say that much.

[@anthonyj.crowley7361]

I love when people talk about games like this. You can tell they have a such love and appreciation for the game. I wish I saw them more.

[@cheshirecreeper3743]

AVATAR BEAT FOR THE RANT ABOUT HOW CHARA IS NOT TO BLAME FOR THE GENOCIDE RUN IS SUCH A POWER PLAYER MOVE

[@whiteface513abandonedchann8]

I like to think of them as a peer to the player, encouraging and helping them to follow through, for their own selfish gain, but that the blood (or technically dust) is still on the player's hands for doing so And yes Avatar Beat is sick, although it's ironic because the Batter actually does manipulate and force the player into killing everything

[@RealestShaggyRogers]

Based OFF fan

[@wormystring]

"chara is the villan in undertale genocide run and kris is the one manipulating noelle in deltarune!!" these are traumatized children

[@arttrixmix7178]

@gmodvideomaker2007 chara is absolutely meant to be the player, toby fox makes a point that you should call the fallen child your own name after all. i'm sure it's intentional that YOU are absolutely the one making the awful choices in the genocide route, then when people playing undertale didn't get the message, he hammered the point home further in deltarune's snowgrave route by making noelle realise kris isn't acting like themself and she hears a terrifying voice when you command her to kill. it makes sense

[@xatime2833]

@@arttrixmix7178 Well the end of genocide completely debunks the Chara is the player theory since Chara confronts YOU the player and not frisk since frisk doesn't appear anywhere as normal and Chara faces you, the player just like flowey. I think Chara is heavily connected to the player, meaning if the player is good, Chara would also be good, but if you become evil, Chara would also be evil.

[@joaquinjovane4226]

the true evil is asriel

[@xxstewiegriffin69]

"stop killing people" ummm... they're literally neurodivergent and minors? lol

[@joaquinjovane4226]

@@xxstewiegriffin69 the only one who deserves punishment is asriel

[@EmotionalDisaster]

Gosh, the way you talk about the characters… there’s so much love and care in your voice, it’s heartbreaking. And how you describe the massacre route, it almost made me cry. This game truly shows one’s ability to feel empathy. Even if they’re just characters in a video game, just like you said… it’s only the players point of view. Thank you so much for this beautiful video 💔💦

[@SerenaMidori]

This was such a good video about the horror of these games, and why we always are too curious to find the "No Mercy" and "Snowgrave" routes. I'm just one of those Sickos who watches and can't do it themselves :'3

[@hahafunnyman6916]

Well that’s the opposite of being a sicko

[@whiteface513abandonedchann8]

@@hahafunnyman6916 not according to Flowey, although I don't know if you should take his word on very much

[@fandomguy8025]

@@whiteface513abandonedchann8 I guess the Idea is if you truly love these characters you won't want to see them die. Because it *is* pretty sick to want to watch them die even if we don't if do it ourselves. I have yet to watch a violence route on Queen, even though we know she wouldn't die, because I love her so damn much! I have done it for Spamton NEO though, but I didn't like it & haven't yet seen one done on smol Spamton.

[@LucyTobler]

not gonna lie, i think it really goes to show how good Toby Fox is at this that I had to scroll down during the chara segment in dread of the jumpscare EVEN THOUGH i checked that it wasnt there. great video :)

[@quixoticornithologist]

OH MY GOD. off music in the backgroud, AVATAR BEAT DURING CHARA, the final quip about scaring transphobes, the wonderful humor, the incredible explanation of everything you talked about, just everything in this video is absolutely PERFECT. i CANNOT believe you only have 28k subs!!! you are one of my favorite channels now!!!

[@lizzyserf]

oh this is such a good analysis holy crap another thing that's a slightly different flavor of horror but has always hit hard for me is the exact relationship between kris and the player in deltarune. it's fairly clear that... they don't really Want you to be there. they want to do their own things. to be free. both of the fights with spamton neo bring out this idea even more, drawing parallels between him and kris. they're a bit shaken after the fight in the normal route, as spamton is continually talking To Them and stuff. in the snowgrave version of the fight it honestly feels like he's talking to you more than to kris. calling you out for everything. and the fact that it ends with "you whispered noelle's name" as opposed to "kris calls for help" is just... it's a lot. also unrelated but i am so glad you added that little end bit in. you don't know how many times i've found a seemingly interesting deltarune video but couldn't watch it all the way through bc the constant misgendering of kris just makes me so uncomfy. hell yeah trans rights

[@whiteface513abandonedchann8]

To be more specific, Kris falls under the nonbinary umbrella, with something more specific that could be defined as an identity that _can't_ be pinned down. Not only is Kris enby rep but also "confusing the shit out of cishets" rep

[@chineseobama6043]

Out of the two games what scared me the most was Spamton, not just scared me but made me sad and happy over different parts of his story He's just so wild in every way

[@LiterallyRyan_Gosling]

When Kris, Susie and Noelle all woke up after Deltarune Chapter 2 I was like: oh, guess it wasn't real after all And then I realized Berdly wasn't asleep

[@sleepyemily07]

This is an absolutely phenomenal video; this creator deserves MUCH more attention than they got for this masterpiece. Give them a philosophy degree, please. :)

[@NezumiVA]

Haha, awh, I'm glad I come across that well considered! Thank you!

[@_Tzer]

noelle's hp max before using snowgrave is 55.. which is LV in roman numerals AKA level of violence

[@theooftroop]

I'm only 11 minutes in, it's 5:58am, and the bit about holding hands with muffet had me cackling way harder than it should've. Great video so far lmao

[@crystalanimates5858]

Why’d I read this at 5:58am-

[@SuperWiiBros08]

I wonder if Deltarune will have its Photoshop Flowey moment

[@jishaboy]

Now that you mention it that TV at the end of ch. 2 looked pretty familiar

[@RealSquidShady]

It’s less of if, but rather *when*

[@ARSD219]

What if it’s Kris, who breaks free from the player’s control and is revealed to have gone insane thanks to what we did? And as a result, takes on a horrifying, corrupted form in an attempt to prevent you from ever taking over their life again? …this is just my opinion, but I’d like it if Kris, should they ever become a horrific final boss, suddenly gets fully-voiced lines. As in, spoken dialogue from a voice actor.

[@MarzaButTube]

I really hope so. I know it's a weird choice, but it might be one of my favorite parts of the game, it just hits all the right stuff for me, personally

[@billybob3064]

@@ARSD219 Thats a horrifying but great idea.

[@Hessonite_Dragon_Helen]

I’ve sworn off doing a single snowgrave route for the single reason that I don’t want to put my copy of deltarune’s’ characters through that I’ve been peer pressured (somewhat jokingly) by friends to do a Snowgrave, and I’ve refused simply because I hate what the player does to everyone

[@sarahbaxton5463]

You saying "click like to scare a transphobe" earned my like for sure if the rest of the video hadn't already. Great stuff

[@classicleafster]

Timestamp??

[@themagicfarawaytree21]

@@classicleafster 37:46

[@jasmineelhilali9152]

@@alarmy5211 ahah you're transphobic that's so funny

[@jasmineelhilali9152]

@@alarmy5211 no problem sweetie, it's a shame to see you fail so hard🥰

[@GNOMEM1LF]

@@legendplayz709 bad joke didn't laugh