I don't recommend World of Warcraft to anyone

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Josh Strife Says is the official Twitch clips/Highlights channel for Josh Strife Hayes. This channel features Best Moments of Josh Strife Hayes, Best of Tangent Tavern Podcast with Callum Upton and sometimes clips from Session Zero DND Group which Josh DM's (Dungeonmaster) for players RageDarling, BillieTrixx and Callum Upton. Josh often talks about multiple MMORPGS like World of Warcraft (WoW), Final Fantasy XIV (FFXIV), Guild Wars 2 (GW2), Runescape (RS3), Old School Runescape (OSRS), New World, Diablo, Path of Exile, Tera, Otherland and other games such as Skyrim, Oblivion, Dragon Age. Some of the best content of Josh Strife Hayes is his React videos with Asmongold reacts and Zepla.
Visit Josh's Main channel for "The Worst MMO Ever"-series and second channel for "Was it good?"-series
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[@zsheets7483]

Now for Asmongold to make a 1hr+ response video to this.

[@Roflstab]

Looking forward to it ❤

[@sandrothenecromancer6810]

"Common guys it is not that bad"

[@LosKiwa]

He prolly would agree tbf, he doesn't play anymore, or as much as he used to.

[@Resi1ience]

What, where he agrees with every single word?

[@molochz]

I can't believe people watch Asmongold. Just can't see why he's popular.

[@BuzzaB77]

Also, "because Blizzard doesn't deserve your time or money" would be the rest of the argument.

[@echomjp]

@ULTRAOutdoorsmanI would argue that they had a significant amount of good quality staff even a bit after that, but World of Warcraft was devoid of good new ideas by the time of the second major expansion, and Starcraft 2 was a mixed bag (though overall still pretty good). Diablo 3 was a greedy mediocre game that didn't live up to what it should have been, and everything since then has been along those lines - mediocre. Of course, if you're taking a moral high ground you might be right, but from a quality perspective I feel they lasted a bit longer.

[@ultimaxkom8728]

It's likely directed at people who doesn't care about who makes them and only care about what they can get out of the game itself.

[@DrGeazy]

Tbf DF is the best game they have made since legion. I just think they need to make the game overall easier for most people. Mythic raiding is too hard for people and people don’t wanna do the “easy” version of the raid. It’s the same as with m+

[@kylehumble4793]

^^^ and I've been playing blizzard games since a wee lad and I don't think they deserve my dedication to their products. Which hurts but they aren't passionate about making games anymore, just do it to make money and not to make a game they themselves enjoy playing. Multi dollar company just focused on getting more penny's.

[@wile123456]

​@ULTRAOutdoorsmanI'd say the bigger reason is all the women they abused and harrahsed over the decades

[@surly_mel]

I was a WoW player starting with OG beta, left around Pandaria (edit). Felt that eventually all sense of wonder/excitement had been sucked out of the game and I was just logging on to farm. Tried several of the later expansions briefly, but they all seemed like "same sh*t different skin." In contrast: Elden Ring was an absolute joy, and can't wait to start Baldur's Gate.

[@radaro.9682]

Try the private server scene. Ascension, Vanilla+, TurtleWoW and several others are doing some really neat stuff.

[@newnamesameperson397]

I kinda liked cataclysm for changing the world and thought they would be doing similar things to keep the world from feeling stagnant. In wrath and burning crusade we saw similar changes but smaller. With cata it felt like something was happening in the world....then they left the world stagnant for close to a decade now. I hate how wow is so expansion centric and how each of those expansions are just bubbles that become stuck in time. Doesn't feel like a world anymore, just a theme park. I hate going to old zones and seeing old problems which seemingly haven't been resolved, like the plague lands. Really reminds me that this game is dated and if I want that level of developers who care and want to make their game feel alive I gotta look elsewhere

[@radaro.9682]

@@newnamesameperson397 yeah, changing the world wasn't the issue. It was essentially resetting the game every expansion. Literally nothing you did had any kind of permanence.which made all your time feel wasted. Didn't make garrisons a growing feature, didn't keep class halls relevant, change how builds play every few patches, basically give up on professions, don't bother to curate a theme park experience but instead funnel directly into play loops that encourage repetition over enjoyment. And all that started with Cata. "This is your build and you get to make six choices, no more".

[@newnamesameperson397]

@@radaro.9682 completely agree there. It's why I never bothered maxing gear or rep because "I'm like what's the point"

[@HnHSaitou]

"same sh*t different skin" Kinda feel like every single game out there for me, doesn't mean I can't have fun on games anymore but I definetely don't play games in the same way I did back then.

[@jasonfitzpatrick2197]

The release of Classic was one of the most profoundly agonising instances of nostalgia I've ever had. I recreated my toon from Vanilla, and relevelled him in the same locations. The whole time, about a month or so, I remembered how it was in 2005. All the people I played with, all the funny shit that had us laughing for hours on vent, all the idiots and ninjas and pointless wipes… all gone into the past.

[@LordSadCat]

Once you become an adult you can't have fun. Not allowed to have friends or laughing. /s The thing isn't the game it's you.

[@Elariesel]

​@@LordSadCatwhat do you mean? Obviously it's games fault that he is no longer living in 2004, when he was younger and had those experiences. Blizzard advertised this as bringing back the Vanila experience, so they were supposed to provide him with guild, ninja looters, raid to wipe with and time to play :)))))

[@LordSadCat]

Damn it Bobby Kotick. He strikes again!@@Elariesel

[@Elariesel]

@@LordSadCat l hope Kotaku keeps making fair and umbiased artocles and finally ruins this company and it's evil CEO

[@jasonfitzpatrick2197]

You guys all appear to think I said it was bad. I said it made me profoundly nostalgic. My point, which I thought was relatively obvious, is that it's the people you play with who are the most important factor in your enjoyment of WoW.

[@thatpoemguy2083]

That one chat message at 1:44 "It's like recommending D&D for your next tabletop campaign..." Man, MOOD

[@Morec0]

Play Blades in the Dark.

[@thatpoemguy2083]

@@Morec0 My guy, I am perfectly aware that there are other systems out there. I'm partial to 'Masks: a new Generation' myself, but my point was that very few others seem to want to play other systems.

[@andromidius]

As a WoW fan I still don't recommend it - because its got a horrendous community that's hostile to new players.

[@ArgoIo]

The entire new player experience is kind of a mess.

[@Niimsy]

Genuinely. People who think league of legends is the most toxic game community clearly have never played classic wow

[@Demoinsete]

Poeple are in the rush didn't explain anythink they. For them, these are things that have been taken for granted for years, which may not necessarily be the case for other players, apart from a few individuals who are willing to guide you well. It's really hell; there is very little teamwork, only to know if you're doing your 'job' correctly."

[@kyotanaka920]

Not to mention the new player experience of the game itself is also a big mess. You have this massive story, yet only the last and current one matters. Timewalking is a joke, and there is no real way to dive into this mess of a story that continues to find ways to retcon itself. The biggest petpeeve for me is being called a hero with having nothing done to earn it. There is a huge disconnect from the story that it makes the most basic thing ever the most difficult thing to get into. And it only gets worse the longer it isn't addressed.

[@DarkScreamGames]

@@kyotanaka920I mean.. Story is not an issue for new players. They get exile's reach and BFA. The problem happens when they cross from BFA to DF, because Blizzard swept SL under the rug, so there's no real connection from BFA to DF. DF will be the base levelling expansion soon though, and that will largely solve the new player onboarding issues, the quests are good, plentiful and mostly make sense.

[@zoltanvamosi4267]

I haven't played World of Warcraft in it's golden years. I wasn't even aware of it then. I feel quite sad about it as nowadays it honestly doesn't feel worth investing time or money into. Not just because Blizzard bad, it just feels like even from an outside perspective that it lost something over the years.

[@tchzaelous8144]

I played from launch to WoD. Was good for the first few expansions, then became about stripping your pockets and cultivating a cult-like atmosphere between all their games/cross promotion. All that was good about the company is long gone.

[@ldezzer3950]

I started playing in BFA, which almost every WoW keyboard veteran called 'the worst expansion'. Played for the whole expansion up until the Shadowlands release. Its not as bad of a game as people on social media make it look like - trying it for 1 month is just about enough to form your own opinion on the game.

[@monalisa-bs4zs]

Free is not cheap enough for me to download a blizzard product. they would have to pay me.@@ldezzer3950

[@Deusaga]

I dunno. I played it for a month when it released and just couldn't get into it. It could just be that most people were all younger, and it was a game that did what existing games did, but more.. But I played a couple dozen hours of Guild Wars 1 but just couldn't get into WoW. Maybe it was the music of GW because that sound track is up there with TES god level of musical poetry. Plus paying $15 a month for a game you already had to buy the disk for has always been ludicrous to me.

[@synmad3638]

I seriously got into WoW during some of its worst years and I had a great time. I also really enjoy Classic despite being a zoomer. Give it a shot.

[@SA-dc9el]

I played since launch until about March of 2020. After Cataclysm I started taking breaks for a month or two. When "time gate" started becoming a bullet point for expansions, it was easy to notice how little the game respected players times. BfA was like having a second job. Log in, grind out to level cap, grind out your daily allotment of world quest, faction quests, table quests, repeat for a month to a month and a half, get nothing else done in game, rinse repeat for 4-5 hours every night after work. Theres better ways for players to spend their time.

[@csguy3223]

Time gating killed the game. Started in Wrath. There was unintentional time gating designed into the game for vanilla and tbc but the devs started weaponizing it around the time Activision entered the picture.

[@TheFartan]

They got rid of time gating, for the most part, in Dragonflight. So right now you don't really have to log in if you don't want to. If you're interested in cutting edge content (like clearing mythic raid or pushing super high keys in M+), time commitment for the first month or two is still very high.

[@cattysplat]

@@csguy3223 Wrath is pretty insanely casual in time compared to the retail mythic+ and daily quest farm game, also the power levels and nerfed open world compared to TBC and vanilla which had dangerous open world. You just do your raids and heroics for the week and that's it. The real problem was the introduction of 10 and 25 man raids for every raid that you HAD to do to stay competitively geared. Now you had to raid the same places twice a week, not necessarily long in time but very boring. The real grind didn't start until Legion with infinite AP grind you HAD to do to be allowed to raid.

[@mrvoldis6688]

​@@TheFartan They didn't get rid of time gating. If you log a new character in dragonflight, you will still need renown to view parts of the story. Meaning you can actively do the start of the story, the end of the story that came with patches like the emerald dream and world tree. But the middle of the story you require renown for that will be impossible to grind out in anything less than a week or 2. So time gating is there, and it makes the entire story experience of dragonflight an even worse disjointed mess than the bad writing had it be anyway

[@noonenowhere877]

I feel like WoW isn’t friendly to new players. The story is incomprehensible, all gear that isn’t max level focused for that particular expansion is useless. Some of the older content isn’t even strictly speaking accessible and yet the game does nothing to warn you when you’re on a quest line that’s been glitched since the devs abandoned it. It’s a game filled with abandonware for seemingly no good reason.

[@MyAmazingUsername]

I like to imagine that lots of people are queuing up to ask Josh what sport they should play. "Ah yes, let's ask that vest suit guy."

[@brean2334]

People who prefer WoW Classic over WoW Retail never played WoW at launch. I played it in 2004 and it is absolutely a better game now even just mechanically. I just don't see any competitors beyond Guild Wars 2 and ESO that come close. But I also hated Runescape and grew up when it first came out so moral of the story everyone has an opinion.

[@ogre7699]

I used to be a big Blizzard guy. But it's really safe to say that it just isn't worth it anymore. Not worth the time or money. There's just nothing worth it left anymore. Gameplay, lore, so forth. WoW has sadly become more akin to an abusive relationship. Dropping the game was the hardest thing I ever did, but I felt so much better after a time. It's one thing to say the game sucks. It's another thing to actually follow through and vote with your wallet.

[@qtintervalmusic]

"Hey Josh, what sport should I get into?" What a common, natural thing to ask someone

[@The_Yukki]

The difference is that you can play 1 game/go to one practice of most sports and tell if it's for you. To say if an mmo is for you you need to spend plenty of time.

[@Nerobyrne]

I think the only people who should play World of Warcraft are people who want to play World of Warcraft 😂 That's basically the main selling point.

[@DirtCheapFU]

That's kinda where I'm at. I go off and play and binge another or new mmo/rpg then when I have my fill, I find myself back on wow complaining not being able to find a good Guild and soft capping a 3rd Warlock and hating the time I waste leveling and gearing my priest because they have the Lord of War title...

[@Tommy_The_Gun]

Recently I was thinning that maybe I should give WoW a try and see why it is considered "Best mmo" out there. So I did some research and was kinda shocked when I saw what kind of business model WoW has... still in 2023. Also weirdly, it collided with info that WoW is loosing players and is not attracting new ones either. So, yeah I agree. It seams that Blizzy does not care at all about potential new players, but rather they keep making stuff to milk whales who already play the game since long time ago. It is most likely one of the most "unfriendly" mmos when it comes to new players. So, I agree. WoW is for WoW players and WoW players only.

[@donksta4197]

I just started back playing Classic WoW with my friends I played it with 20 years ago. I'm having a great time but I get folks not wanting to play it.

[@kubasniak]

@@Tommy_The_Gun Lmao WHALES? Bro what is you talking about... 15$ a month that is a big mac combo is whaling? Give me a break and who FORCES you to buy couple available garbage mounts from the in-game cash shop, other than that, what? Buying tokens for gold? If you play you get gold passively for raiding mats basically. If you wanna talk about whaling a good example would be players in Maple Story on regular servers... now that's whaling and plenty of other games like that which are "free" but with insane cash shop.

[@cattysplat]

@@kubasniak Collectors will buy everything in the shop to have everything. This is what you don't understand, that is the entire purpose of these things in the first place. People don't just want 1 mount, pet, cosmetic, else people would just stick with default. So they still make money from whaling collectors, which happens to be a huge number of players still playing WoW.

[@ParanoidCarrot]

its such a shame i did not know boldering exists as a kid. im totaly hooked

[@Buggolious]

I tried bouldering a few times with friends, it was fun for sure but it's not for me as a regular hobby. Some time after I found padel which is amazing. No shade to bouldering just wanted to share my experience

[@Matt_the_pirate]

Omg yeah, I'd love to do it more but I panic and get paralyzed when I have to jump down

[@ripplecutter233]

pricey tho. but yeah fun as heck. literally monkey bars for adults

[@tuliomesquita1294]

Oh Man, me too fr

[@DVFHAFYT]

@@Matt_the_pirate So keep doing it until it doesn't happen, overcoming fear is also a very satisfying experience and a very important thing to do in life.

[@Fastwinstondoom]

I don't play retail, I don't play wotlk...but goddamn, I am so hooked on classic hardcore. It's old, clunky and not designed for permadeath...but it feels exactly like how I remember playing wow 20ish years ago felt. Mobs are scary, dungeons are risky, loot feels rewarding. I guess this is how the old school runescape addicts feel?!

[@Williosx]

Wow is a good game at it's core, but a bad product which is why it's not recommandable. Being a monthly paid game + paid dlc + cash shop + p2f battle pass + token + no customer support anymore, barely no game master to help + full bot + scripter in wotlk + GDKP + Unfriendly and toxic environnement. Why would you recommand a defective product to anyone?

[@alilarhdiri9666]

I regret no playing wow when it was at its peak. Now I can't play it due to lack of time and extremely toxic community

[@vearheart42]

I don't know what guild you are or communities you are a part of but most guilds/communities I interact with are very nice and friendly.

[@slanderpop8771]

its not any more or less toxic than any online or mmo community. I think people say things like that after a few bad experiences or just not playing it in a while. Ive had bad experience in ESo, ffxiv

[@anteprs7908]

@@vearheart42 yeah that bs

[@anteprs7908]

@@slanderpop8771yes it is sure it not lol or fps game toxic but it the most toxic mmo out on the market community wise

[@delanuma5]

As somebody who started in legion, the combat, transmogs, and overall art style + feel of the game keeps me coming back. I don’t raid, I don’t PvP, but I can spend 12+ hours easily playing. Whether it’s a mage tower attempt for the 700th time, or running old raids for transmogs. Or just chillin in Goldshire messing with toys and showing off mounts and outfits. This game isn’t a sweaty competition, nor is it a 100 hour a week commitment. It’s a flippin game, it’s not meant to consume your soul. If you’re interested in it, there’s no harm in trying it out. More than plenty to do especially considering all the expansions, zones, classes, armors, weapons, mounts, the list goes on.

[@thesnep4757]

As a former WoW player, who loved it for many years. I don't recommend it either. It doesn't respect your time, or even pretend to. The community is also awful.

[@hyperionnova2854]

You can tell how many people just saw the title of the video but not watched it, judging at the number of comments that missed the whole point 🤭

[@12SickOne34]

If we're talking about football. Can anyone explain to me in 2-3 sentences why the hell football is called soccer in the States and what American Football has to do with feet?

[@donksta4197]

I just started Classic again with folks I played 20 years ago with and I'm having so much fun. My buddies 70 year old mom is playing with us again. I get folks not wanting to play though.

[@XarkoCZ]

Josh looks like a Elder Scrolls vampire here.

[@bloodsports94]

LOL

[@DerortLightBringer]

I like World of Warcraft but I also like that there's enough options these days that others can try looking for something that suits their tastes

[@iyaramonk]

@@asicveg The mmo's that copied wow all died for the most part. So they can blame themselves for that. If they offer something wow doesn't, then they can thrive.

[@Tommy_The_Gun]

@@asicveg True, there are tons of dead MMOs. Too many games simply tried to copy wow, but they did not innovate. I think that the ones that are still alive are the ones that were were successfully. Take ESO for example. No one thought that MMO based on Elder Scrolls would work... but it did and next year there should be 10th (11th if you count beta) anniversary. There is also Star Wars and Star Trek mmos for the fans of those franchise.

[@AmongRevenants]

Inside the wow environment itself, there's often something to suit anyone's game style. Many different benchmarks to measure the worth of your toon. Raiding, all the way down to Saturday nights slap and tickle in GoldenShower. My benchmark was crafting and stacks of coins. All my friends raided. I'd supply the coin to finance repairs, supply them with pot and food. At only a raid item per week vig. Or I would have them do rip and runs, at the cross-faction auction houses.

[@Seoul_Soldier]

@@iyaramonk That's bullshit. There are so many unique MMO's like WildStar, City of Heroes, and Anarchy just to name a few, that failed BECAUSE they were nothing like WoW. Companies copied World of Warcraft because that's all that brain-rotted MMO players were willing to play. Every western MMO still alive right now is just WoW with a slight innovation. World of Warcraft destroyed the MMO space.

[@iyaramonk]

@@Seoul_Soldier Interesting take. Blaming the players not the game. Can't say I agree.

[@1stclasstutu512]

I wouldn't say you should play it on a private server, but there are ones that exist that are just genuinely better than what Blizzard offers.

[@Quark214]

Indeed, Turtle wow offered me a more fun experience than either Retail or Classic WoW. I really wish Blizzard would have taken a similar approach to Classic WoW. With their resources, you could have had even more extra content and have it be more seamlessly integratted into the game

[@masterpain7742]

Lmao how does turtle wow offer more when u can play retail classic wotlk and hardcore lol u turtle people are delusional with ur Chinese overpopulated servers

[@diamondhamster4320]

So basically WoW Classic Plus Expanded???

[@Quark214]

@@diamondhamster4320 Yeah, pretty much new races, new raids, new quests, new dungeons and they still have a vanilla wow feel to ti. They also have a hardcore mode if you're interested in it.

[@ArmageddonEvil]

Retail/Classic World of Warcraft doesn't even stop hackers, gold sellers, etc. All the while, those private servers do. Seems like the only thing at the head of Blizzard's mind is what Activision and its shareholders want.

[@deathkiidd]

I'll never recommend WoW to people, I actively tell them to stay away and play something else worth their time and energy.

[@iller3]

the saddest part.. is that the OLD wow that everyone fell in love with, was essentially just E.Q. 1.5.

[@cattysplat]

Because it was made by hardcore raiders of EQ. Who wanted the same but better. This changed with the Activision buyout from Cataclysm onwards.

[@Agoonga]

I used to play WoW all the time from 2007 to 2015. Then my PC broke and I have been too lazy/broke to replace it.

[@ThomasShepard-qj2ni]

With how many different ways there are to play WoW right now not mentioning or recommending it just seems like it's based on some kind of personal grudge over any good faith criticism.

[@anogredoctor]

I played WoW consistently since open beta up until shortly after Dragonflight's launch. I've also been consistently playing it with a friend of mine since late Wrath, and we both came to the same conclusion. It just isn't the same game it used to be and doesn't draw us in the same way it once did. I thought I would be sad about having zero desire to play it anymore, but considering I've been playing it for nearly 20 years, I'm actually ok with not playing it ever again. Not because I hate it or because I think it's bad. I think I'm just done with MMOs in general. I think what would suit WoW the best is just starting over and having a WoW2. Although I likely won't jump in anymore. I'm closer to 40 than I am 30 and just don't have the drive to want to waste my time in WoW. It was a good run.

[@bugmilk9182]

Problem with WoW 2 concept unfortunately is the fact it would be made by the same people who are developing current WoW. Dark times for mmo's indeed

[@Mineral4r7s]

IT doesnt matter if they make a WoW2 its still blizzard.

[@GreatWhiteNinja720]

@@Mineral4r7sblizzard is dead. Microsoft/Activision cancer is alive and well

[@Bat_Boy]

🎯💯 I miss it, but that’s exactly the problem. It can easily consume your time and life.

[@BeepBoop335]

I have played WoW since vanilla, but didn't like it and didn't really get into it until WotLK. To be clear to people looking in from the outside: the game is undeniably still very good, but very different from the old days. BFA and Shadowlands had some pretty glaring weaknesses so people are right to hate on them, but they did some things well. The modern pillars of the game - raiding, mythic+ dungeons, PVP have only gotten better and better. The problem is, people who loved the old WoW don't care for how the current game is, no matter how good it is. It's just a fundamentally different game - far more complex, analytical, and competitive. It is less of an MMO and more of a game lobby between dungeons and raids. For me, who loves raids and dungeons and min/maxing all games, I like WoW way more now and I actually really disliked vanilla.

[@Zectifin]

this is a really good point. When someone is looking for game suggestions they aren't looking for you to recommend Zelda. Everyone knows the biggest game of the year. Tell them about that great game you love that nobody has ever heard of.

[@haberak3310]

Here's the problem with WoW: assuming you just want to have access to the at any time past level 20 (which you will hit in only a couple days at the most), you are expected to spend, on average, $200 a year between the biennial expansion releases and the mandatory sub. The problem is that the quality of the game is not far enough above and beyond games like LOTRO and SWTOR, which, while they do offer a sub, they do not require it to play the game, nor is WoW significantly better than a game like ESO where it's a one time purchase with optional expansions and you're good. We are neither in a time where requiring a sub is industry standard nor are we in a time where WoW is that much better of a game than its competitors where Blizzard can get away with demanding it. Hell, WoW is even doing the one thing players don't want in a sub to play game by having a store where, among other things, you can buy gold and level boosts. While they are moving in the right direction in a lot of things since DF released, either the game or the payment model still need to improve significantly

[@lovropeter9988]

Ok but does anyone really care about $200 a year? It would take you 5 years to save up $1000 and there are many other things that cost you way more. I don't think it's a significant amount

[@haberak3310]

@@lovropeter9988 That kinda misses my point, but maybe that's on me for explaining it poorly. The $200 a year isn't the problem (though for a lot of people, it could be), it's the fact that it's $200 a year when you can easily get a comparable or better experience for a fraction of the price in other games. LOTRO, after the initial buy in of the current expansions(keeping in mind though that you can play much longer f2p on LOTRO than WoW, going to level 95 rather than 20 with a slower levelling pace as well), asks only (on average) $20 a year for mainline content, ~$30 with the sude expansions. SWTOR asks $7.50 a year to get the new expansions (you only have to spend more if you're really into the end game content). ESO has a $60 buy in of the base game and all expansions released since with only $40 annually if you want to get that year's expansion (which is optional since it isn't raising the level cap or anything, just granting a new zone). All of the games I mentioned are about as good or better than WoW at as little as 3% of the annual cost. The only game I can think of that has about the same annual demand as WoW is FF14, but you're looking at a game then that most people who have played both say is significantly better than WoW. The fact of the matter is that it isn't 2009 when WoW really was head and shoulders better than its competition, nor is the requirement of a monthly sub industry standard anymore. WoW's monetization system is ultimately archaic and unsuited to the game as it is in the landscape it's in.

[@Zibbit27]

GW2 and ESO are usually my go to recommendations when it comes to MMOS, ESO if you prefer to be a more solo-esque, and GW2 if you really like playing with other people and seing people all around you. GW2 does not require you to play nonstop, you can take a break and come back and not miss out on gear progression etc.

[@doppelkammertoaster]

Tried ESO but never could get into the combat system, wish I could though. I loved the lore of TES and they seem to do good stuff with it. But now it's FFXIV, and it's main story is a high bar I doubt many other games can reach. It also does solo and group content well. But man I wish it would look like ESO.

[@Michael-bn1oi]

​@@doppelkammertoaster I'd be really sad if the Final Fantasy game stopped looking like Final Fantasy. So would the vast majority of its players I think.

[@doppelkammertoaster]

@@Michael-bn1oi I don't refer to the design of the franchise, I refer to the lack of good environment design in FFXIV.

[@weirdafters4007]

sadly GW2 is dead now

[@RicardoAlmeida-bu2ph]

Uh? Gw2 u gotta by the worse recommendatiom tbh. ESO, wow and even ffxiv are far better for someone whom is starting.

[@Sorae90]

WoW gets infinitely better when you are part of a guild. I mean you could say that about any multiplayer game but the factor is so much bigger in WoW. Most of the downsides for beginners just vanish and there are a lot of chill guilds who just want to level and chat. Not saying that it fundamentally changes the game. Diving into new content with my guild and taking challenges with snappy gameplay is just enough for me. Hopefully they take the wheel around regarding lore and some systems.

[@cattysplat]

The problem is the WoW playerbase itself pushes new players away with hostility and elitism. It's a far cry from the old days where we just turned up to raids and wiped laughing all the way whilst learning mechanics, now winning first time every time is the only option or it's a kick.

[@KaneMeadowsGaming]

​@cattysplat Honestly as a new player the community has been pretty chill outside of a couple raid wipes

[@dinckelman]

I would take something absolutely insane, in terms of philosophical and gameplay changes, for me to even give it a shot again. They're not doing anything new, they're disrespectful of people's time, and the game also has a monthly sub. I can play literally anything else, and have more fun

[@donksta4197]

Not sure why folks expect games to respect their time, they are literally there to burn time.

[@vearheart42]

DF is literally the easiest expansion to run through and progress. It's the most time respecting expansion ever? So obvious y'all haven't even played it when you say things like this just making assumptions and lying to yourself and others.

[@jeremyroberts8822]

I mean it isn’t just wow, the entire mmo genre consists of games that want you to keep logging in and playing them nearly daily(some weekly). Games are really meant to be a time killer if you think about it so idk what you mean about disrespecting your time. If your into this genre of game you yourself don’t respect your own time lol

[@kevinc8955]

If you respected your own time, you wouldn’t be playing an MMO. Like complaining there’s too much sugar in birthday cake.

[@DanKojak]

It's mostly a question of if the game (or your peers in the community within the game) expect you to play a certain minimum amount every day or every week, or if it's more constructed in a way that you're more free to pick it up or put it down at your leisure for entertainment purposes anytime. Of course, in nearly all cases no game *forces* you to attend, but do much you have to keep up with the Joneses?

[@Tonbizzle]

"I played it a long time ago... I enjoyed being a demon hunter tank" Is a reminder of how far removed I am from when I enjoyed it and where it is now. Thank god for, ahem, 'alternative' servers, where I can play the game I used to know, even if only for a bit at a time.

[@snick0o0]

i lold too

[@owenreynolds8718]

Yeah, I played "a long time ago" as well, through 3 expansions, and at first I thought he said "Hunter Tank". Like sometimes when the tank goes down near the end of a boss a really good hunter can buy a few seconds and save things by grabbing threat with a tank pet. Then I was thinking "what race is Demon?" Finally it clicked: "Demon Hunter" -- I heard that was one of those desperate new emo classes after kung-fu pandas. Then came the sad "I'm old" moment when I checked and ... this "new" Demon Hunter class is 7 years old. But it's fine. If Josh had said a Paladin or Druid tank I'd have been "come-on man -- those are for filthy casuals" and lost respect. But by the Legion expansion Warriors tanks were a shadow. Anyone could tank ... "playing the Mailman class? Sure, here's a 2-button tank spec". He didn't know any better.

[@Michael-bn1oi]

​@@owenreynolds8718 you should deal with some personal stuff if you care so strongly about what class someone plays in a video game. Lose respect? Come on lol don't be a clown.

[@Outplayedqt]

@@owenreynolds8718If you played WoW and hadn’t heard of demon hunters until now, you never really played WoW

[@csguy3223]

Legion was by far the best modern expansion. I’ve tried every version of the game since December 2004. The only versions I didn’t quit, for more than half of the duration, were vanilla, legion and burning crusade. My favorite content was Emerald Nightmare through Tomb of Sargeras in Legion. Blizzard had a very high hit rate during that 7.0-7.2 period. Demon hunters are whatever as a class, but lots of people wanted that class fantasy because of the popularity of Illidan. I played balance and resto druid throughout Legion and it felt amazing.

[@burnttoast26]

The wonder of WoW has been sucked out of it by systems obsession, rampant datamining, poor storytelling, and a hyperfixation on mythic+ and being optimal. I do think Classic Hardcore is worth a play, but retail just doesn't really feel good.

[@Morec0]

Warcraft: Orvs & Humans was legit my first PC game ever. I have nothing but sorrow looking at it now.

[@JReyesTbn46]

Each time I quit WoW was when I didn't like that game and community pissed me off. The last time I quit, I just stopped giving a crap. Seems like every Blizzard game is a public beta until they get it right for one patch and then screw everything up all over again.

[@NickaLah]

Old WoW friends told me about hardcore classic the other day, talking about how you can die permanently and how great it is.... I'm just sitting there pretending to understand what their version of "fun" entails at this point. It's so weird trying to talk to one of them about other games and it's like it doesn't compute in his head. "Other... games...? There are others besides WoW?" I just don't understand how anyone can have absolutely no interest in any other games ever. Did y'all not play anything before WoW?? How does one cling to WoW for almost 20 years and never get bored enough to try any other game, ever? Then again, I experienced the height of BC and Wrath, even getting to Sunwell as a girl tank and surpassing Illidan was beyond my wildest dreams at the time. Sunwell wasn't that great, eitther, so even though my guiild didn't fully clear it, I think we all felt like we got to see what we really wanted to, especially when all I heard from friends in the best guild on my server is they kinda hated Sunwell lol. One of my oldest WoW friends who actually taught me how to tank properly didn't get so lucky in BC nor Wrath, and it feels like he has always tried to capture those moments he missed out on in the early days. That was the biggest issue early on, even talented players had to rely on luck a bit and be willing to leave friends behind to progress in a new guild that was able to clear content. I had a really good excuse for leaving my first raiding guild when my ex-bf asked me to tank the new guild he was forming and the guild I left was already stuck in progression at Gruul's Lair. Then when my ex didn't move quickly enough to start raiding within the first week I left the first guild, I got antsy real quick and was accepted into a guild already progging SSC. I got lucky and was able to raid with that guild up to Cata. That guild fizzled out, I got into the best guild on my server through friends, and lost interest a month into Cata. Turns out you still wipe in the best guild on your server lol. That and you could feel WoW dying even a month into Cata. Somewhere around there I got hooked on DAO and also dabbled in other MMOs like AION and Tera befor settling on single player RPGs as my fave games just before the huge drought in Bioware single player games started after Andromeda.

[@blakearius]

Just remember for every leveled up MMO character you have you could have played like 20 other single player campaigns instead. I realized this after the first month of Wow but everyone fell for the trap.

[@MrCarlWax]

As someone who has thousands of hours in several MMOs. A lot being in the bigger ones. I'd easily say that if you enjoy dungeons and raids and to push your skill in them, there is no MMO that comes close to how well WoW does it. They probably also has the most customisations of any MMO.

[@sonlen796]

I've played World of Warcraft since Vanilla WoW back in '04. Hell, I still play World of Warcraft regularly and I still don't recommend it to anyone looking for a new game. The game has come a long way towards being MORE new player-friendly (Emphasis on the more), but it's still not very approachable. Maybe next expac once the Dragon Isles are the new player experience it will be better, but there is still a lot more Blizzard needs to do.

[@divinecomedian2]

It's so casual now for new players. How can you say it's not new user friendly?

[@networknomad5600]

@@divinecomedian2It somehow manages to be very casual while also being obtuse af for new players

[@dosbilliam]

@@divinecomedian2 The same reason why Dan Olson was able to reference a location from Cataclysm, the Molten Front, as a place newer players might get involved in when it's overall irrelevant to anything current. Without a guild or someone to point you in the right direction, a new player's going to be very confused. For reference, that very same Molten Front is one of the things I'm going to eventually be working on since I didn't get that far in the game when Cata was actually out. :P

[@BEANSNOHELPME]

Started playing Classic Wow 3 months ago on a dead server with a small guild. It is heaven and I am so enjoying the game. Play what you love and enjoy your game time, it is so very precious!

[@SilverionX]

Orienteering is the sport for me. It's running in nature but you also have somewhere to go, and I'm pretty good at navigation.

[@sonicmarsh232]

As someone playing HC WoW, if you don't currently play WoW in any of the versions and you are curious, play either Classic era NON-Hardcore, or play with a group of friends in Wrath Classic. Otherwise don't bother, retail requires too many extra out of game things to install or set up and they break every week, and that isn't even touching the story design or just the feeling of gear permanence being empty. Wrath classic by yourself is just depressing with the gold seller market and now the WoW token having been added. Classic era at the very least can be played like a real MMO, HC or otherwise.

[@freeman8r]

“ oh hes talking about soccer “ Imagine not knowing soccer is slang for association football

[@taylemgames2652]

I agree. WoW is a soulless MMO that dropped the heart and RPG parts a long time ago.

[@hazyviews999]

If you're bad at the game just say that

[@phantombigboss8429]

I don't recommend anyone to Destiny 2 either.

[@void_bound]

Getting into wow in 2023 is like getting into gambling. Everyone tells you how great it is, and how rewarding it is after a 100 hours, but noone really wants you to succeed

[@albingranquist8290]

I wouldnt recommend retail or wotlk to my worst enemy. It can be fun like you said once you're heavily invested. But before that you have to deal with one of the most gatekeeping communities in gaming. Dont have gold? You are encouraged to buy gold to participate in GDKPS For a new player without alot of friends who will take them along youre are screwed if you want to progress without swiping the good old credit card, same thing in retail with m+ and raiding

[@BigRocker-ot2yw]

​@@albingranquist8290you don't have to buy gold or get boosted in retail to get to the high end. You just need to get good, farm m+ gear and farm gold for some crafted items (which can be easly done by doing dailies). High end raiding guilds requires people to be good at their role and class and the gear is easly obtained through mythic plus and raids (Aberrus hc is such a joke with 441-447 gear) and the difference between mythic raid gear and mythic plus gear is minimal. For mythic plus I'd say that getting to 3k is feasible if you are good and you have the right class, spec and patience. Getting to 2500 rio is a joke and can be done with every spec. Meanwhile to get to higher RIO scores it's better to find other 4 stable people and push with them.

[@FromTheAshes0762]

Im so american.. he said football and I was like "football is popular worldwide?"

[@m3m3sis]

If I was to start an MMORPG, I'd go with SWTOR just for the storylines alone.

[@TheGreatThicc]

I tried to give WoW a shot just before Dragonflight came out after a couple of buddies talked me into it and I couldn't even make it to one month. I thought I'd quite enjoy it since I put years into other MMO's like Runescape and Elder Scrolls Online but something about WoW just kept rubbing me the wrong way.

[@TheVenhammer]

Its because WoW is designed for engagement, not fun

[@lordbelh]

I stopped playing WoW just before WotLK, because work and life in general made the commitment untenable, and I was too used to playing the top end of the game to want to just become a casual. Picked it up again at Classic launch, and it was fun for.. a few months. Real nostalgia trip. HC is keeping me interested longer than the classic relaunch could. I'm a casual now, taking my time, but I also get the thrill of failure being around every corner, without having to spend every day prepping for a raid. Just doing regular quests takes planning and thought. I like that.

[@Phatolot]

The way i see it, retail has refined gameplay but feels like the game is rushing you to endgame without much time to enjoy the journey. While classic does have that rpg feel of going on an adventure and getting steadily stronger, it plays, well, like an old mmo. There is no middle ground.

[@cattysplat]

That's why Cata is so decisive and is the point Classic ends. The game is completely different.

[@LEWIS1992]

As someone who has never played WoW before, the graphics put me off. Let's be honest, the game looks VERY dated and desperately needs a remaster or sequel. That, and the fact that I simply cannot understand the order in which expansions are meant to be played. The world/lore is just TOO big.

[@Grom8P]

A few reasons why I wouldn't: 1. Blizzard is not Blizz anymore 2. Engame or die (retail) 3. Stale/old MMO systems that drag the game down. 4. RMT and bots 5. Classic is ok, but its does have its own issues. Blizzard still doesn't support it well enough.

[@eliasnilsson597]

I do enjoy retail world of warcraft but not as an RPG. I enjoy it the same way I enjoy CS these days. I think retail is at it’s best when you’re playing difficult content with your friends and trying to push your character to the limit. So I see modern retail more as a faster paced action game. I think that’s the best way to think about WoW these days because as a casual player there is very little enjoyment to be had in the world. I would also recommend other games if the person wants an MMORPG experience.

[@BaekSuryong]

When I was a kid I didn't have the money to pay the monthly fee for Wow, but I watched a lot of people playing it, but nowadays I can afford it, and that's what I did, I paid the monthly fee, I downloaded the game, I played for 2 weeks, straight, and that's when I realised that there was no right line to follow, I know that many people may find this stupid, but for me, who doesn't have time to go through each of the quests in each area and just wants to read the main story, it's horrible, I got through the tutorial and everything, and I was thrown into a world with hundreds of quests that had no end, I would start one hoping to finish it in a few missions, but every time I finished one there was another and another and another, with no end, and I asked myself "Okay, where am I? I can't even remember how I got here, someone help me." I went on forums to try to find the main quest line and it simply doesn't exist (I think), each quest has its own lore, each character and so on. That's incredible, but I really just wanted to know about the lich, not the sailor pig who wants to kill a giant fish. Basically I abandoned the game because I didn't know who to turn to, or where to go. And that's why I like Final Fantasy 14, apart from a few problems, it has a separate, even tonne of content (not as extensive as World Of Warcraft, but it has it). My experience as a new player, which was with the intention of having a story to follow and explore as the game progresses, as in FF14, was poor, and I would rather have left it in my memory. I still love watching WOW content and this experience won't stop me loving the game, but the game itself apparently isn't for me.

[@zavijah3200]

I'm a Wrath Baby. Even though that was 15 years ago, I will admit that on each return to the game has been less and less each time. It has it's defining points, I will always love how the classes play, but the rest of it - my tastes have outgrown what it can offer.

[@kerianhalcyon2769]

WoW just kind of needs to just...stop. It needed to end a long time ago. It's a game that's been on life support and has more or less been used as a cash cow for Blizzard since they quit Project Titan and started making Overwatch. It had a good run, it had a decent story, but everyone and their dog has problems with the game, the last time the story's been good was half a decade ago, and nothing new that they're offering has actually been interesting. It's like a soap opera that's run for too long, it just kind of needs to close. There's going to be people who defend WoW, even now, but it's at a point where I legitimately wonder how many of them are whales or in denial, especially given how much all the negative aspects of MMO culture are readily prevalent in WoW (you haven't played the game until X hours, raid tier is best tier, gear will be outmoded next patch/xpac, so on and so forth). Meanwhile the IP that the game is built around is more or less trapped by it. The Warcraft 3 remake was abysmal and still not worth playing, the side stories we got promised were cancelled and simply repackaged into the MMO later, and the one movie we got never went anywhere aftewards. Meanwhile League of Legends - a game built off of a spinoff mod of a map for Warcraft 3 - has managed to get its own side game and animated series.

[@your-username-here2308]

The only focus of WoW is copetitive Instances. Its not a open World with Adventure , its just Raids,M+ and PvP Instances. Espacially for new Players WoW is a bad choice. The leveling makes no sense, its all over the place. There is not one, single World to explore, just different zones, stuck in a different time loop. And the only real endgame is the current Expac. Then after it ends, almost all systems and things that got put into the game become pointless. They just replace the current content without expanding the Game.

[@yvechapman9342]

I'm playing it for the first time currently because I didn't get to experience it at peak (was busy being a sheltered Christian kid and then married teen lol) and my husband (not the first one) got back in for a bit. He originally played Shadowlands. It's been about two months and he's already quit. I have no desire to do endgame or any group content whatsoever because the community is so closed off and elitist in a game that I'm constantly having to Google my way around. The only interactions I've had with other players is people randomly calling me slurs with no provocation and getting mobs drug onto me by higher level players who steal my clickers and run off laughing so I die and have to wait for another spawn. The game itself is very disjointed and buggy and it seems like Blizzard just honestly doesn't care anymore. It's like WOW is their 35 year old basement offspring they're just hoping will eventually disappear.

[@ansems3309]

As someone who enjoys the journey the most, the leveling, I hate one thing about WoW: Old content is irrelevant. I think my idea would be easy to implement and would work on normal retail servers: In the start, give me the option to play as a adventurer (or what ever) this means that you will level in the eastern kingdoms and kalimdor as fast as you did in Vanilla WoW. And when you hit 60, you can go to the Outlands and there leveling takes as long as it did in BC. And when you hit 70 you go to Northend and so on. As someone who didn't really play back then and two months ago started playing Wrath Classic, I was so amazed by the fact that I needed to explore nearly the whole of Northend. And I think that this would be easy to implement. Just give me the option to basically need more exp to level up. I am not a hardcore player and it took me roughly a month to level from 70 - 80 in Wrath and it would be so awesome to play for half a year and then you are in Pandaria. And the thing that I hate the most about not having that option is that everything is there. The content is already there, you just level too fast to actually play through it.

[@radicalcentrist4990]

WoW is just one of those games that you must have been there for during its golden age. Too many things have changed, both in-game an outside the game to still get the same feeling that everyone got when playing in the 2000's. Even if you're playing the classic servers, you're coming to a game that has already been mastered and completely explored and you are expected to already know your shit. The magic of exploration and discovery is lost.

[@brainstormsurge154]

Just remember that the "football" he's talking about is called "soccer" in the US. Basically it's "football" everywhere but the US.

[@doltonnoak2656]

Yeah, box+$180/year+expansions not worth in the current year for the same game we all played 15 years ago

[@DagothDaddy]

The whole die once and you are dead forever from Hardcore just doesn't work for me. It makes more sense in games like POE or Diablo. I'd rather it be more like you die and you loose your items then get teleported back to stormwind.

[@wowwar2]

Same, It is fun if you are playing with a friend for a few hours, but once you have made enough progress, it is gonna suck once you eventually die

[@dutch8296]

I'm not a teenager anymore. I don't want to play games that take a lot of time. Like in wow classic where a dungeon like zul farrak takes 3 hours.

[@michaelm6179]

Started playing WoW Ascension which is classless and they've changed a lot about the game. It's a private server though, so there's that caveat if you don't trust them, but I'm personally having a blast.

[@chrisironland7050]

I'd try it, but I've no clue what's the worst that can happen with it. I rather not lose my actual WoW account or anything. But if worst thing that can happen is like "you lose Ascension account because someone decided you're a prick" then I'll give it a shot. Sounds interesting and I did check build calculator already just to see if I can come up with something ridiculously powerful or just funny :D

[@GhostOfSnuffles]

I quit at the Pandoria expansion, i draw the line at Kung Fu Panda.

[@2thre3]

Basketball 2s and 3s. Easy to get into - your local court and a ball - doesn't take many people, 4 or 6. Rules can be swapped and changed or added as you get better. Hella fun to play and the core principal is just put the ball through the hoop. For those considering sports ofc.

[@0ne0fmany]

The problem with classic, is that just because they reset the game, and just release it with better graphics, everyone will still know, how bad the story will turn out by the time we reach Warlords of Draenor.

[@Felipe_Ribeir0]

I would say to anyone, do not play any MMORPG. Its basically an infinite game that can trap you in and make you so addicted, make you invest so much on it that you just do not develop other areas of your life. After making out of it i just play single player games.

[@michaelstudeny8848]

Most of my life ive been playing wow on private servers, decided, that after so many years i might aswell give Dragonflight or Classic a spin, didnt like either too much, but still, an experience. Still playing WoW on a private server from time to time, having wonderful time, exploring (the custom content the devs added is immaculate), and just overall chilling. People pretend like Retail and Classic is all WoW has to offer.

[@xXLucromXx]

New players should def play wow, just because you already know everything doesnt mean others cant enjoy it cause its new for them

[@dafire9634]

New players will be overwhelmed by the amount of necessary addons + required knowledge everyone expects you to have thats not explained anywhere like interrupts/CC since you level at a breakneck pace and new players reach DF without even knowing how to do basic shit, The community surely doesnt help either with how hostile and impatient it is

[@xXLucromXx]

@@dafire9634 all information can be googled, which I also do when "visiting" some other mmo, for example ff14 also uses addons in a totaly different and way harder to find way, I googled it and now I am up to date with how things work, if you want something done or want to understand something you just have to ask/search for help

[@anteprs7908]

@@xXLucromXxmost mmorpg dont have + 30 abilites to learn and addons

[@stripe002]

WoW will never be the same again. The reason I played was for the progression and the adventure of exploring. I knew every town and region by name. Now, I don’t even know the base reason for entering WoW anymore. Progression is gone, and they’re just throwing content at you, while all the old lore is no longer relevant.

[@Delmworks]

Got in when I was a kid, then left. Came back for years later for Panderia got to max level…and then left because I enjoyed leveling more than actual endgame content. Even then I could tell it peaked with Outland and WotLK. Idly considered rejoining classic because of Barmy, but their videos are actually a strong argument to NOT do that

[@TheLegacyofKingXeno]

I arrived late to WoW and I enjoyed it, but the only reason I kept at it for so long was the cool people in the friend's guild that I joined. The memories were about the people, not the game so much. When other friends started 14, it wasn't hard to transition. I gave WoW one last chance at Shadowlands and really looked at the game this time, now having friends in both games and, well, I haven't looked back since.

[@natgrant-haysey3713]

Thats the only reason I still play as well, if the members of my guild leave I will most likely leave as well. Because thats THE only reason I play.

[@jointser1008]

shadowlands truely was the worst expansion

[@archaeopteryks]

Its like when someone says their favorite band is the Beatles. Like, the whole world agrees the Beatles were brilliant, give me a real answer.

[@heathaltom8601]

I think that Blizzard forgot who the main players are and have for about a decade. There's very little interesting casual content. What do you do between M+ or raids? Farm outdoor content...thats not fun or casual. What can I do with 20-30 people thats fun? How about 5-10? The answer is nothing. Theres nothing to do that isn't either piss easy or actually challenging. Casual players need content. Also evergreen content would help as well.

[@Miragexe]

WoW is not for new players, nothing is done for them, the game is designed around the veteran player.. the whole leveling experience is just about getting you to 60 ASAP so you can play the latest expansion, but what does that mean for a new player? You get dumped into Legion content or whatever, no clue who is what or why, half the stuff is irrelevant and outdated content, the whole artifact weapon system is dead, the relics are trash items, the ilvl of gear is like 50 and that's not to even mention the horrible scaling that makes you get weaker as you level up until the game forcibly teleports you out when you get to 59-60 to play Dragonflight so they don't even let you complete the content.

[@kylewestbay9571]

Now I wanna know which sport Josh would recommend I’d get into

[@laertesindeed]

That analogy makes no sense.... because you're not playing that sport, you're sitting in a chair yelling for no reason about other people who play the sport. Whereas the mmo is a game you have to participate in and earn the stuff.

[@Grrimhildr]

@@laertesindeed what? have you never played a sport yourself? he wasnt talking about what sport josh would recommend getting into watching he meant what sport he would recommend playing

[@laertesindeed]

@@Grrimhildr Totally the opposite of what you just typed...... he very clearly specified "be a fan of" for what sport. You need to get your hearing checked.

[@Grrimhildr]

@@laertesindeed he literally says nowhere about being a fan of a sport. Also did you like your own comment 💀

[@Grrimhildr]

@@laertesindeed he says "which sport josh would recommend ID get into". never anything about being a fan of a sport 💀💀

[@Plasma-Wizard]

Outside the US, no one really plays "Football"... most countries prefere "Soccer". So no, I don't think that Football is the most popular sport in the world

[@justincider8892]

I don't know if Josh has ever talked about this sport, but Mas-wrestling is kind of a cool one that most people don't know exists.

[@Relbl]

That's an evasion -- the question was specifically for WoW Classic Hardcore. And considering it's essentially the granddad of all MMOs and to say people who haven't tried it shouldn't because retail is boring and Legion was better is weak reasoning

[@raphaelpoulain2128]

I still feel that Blizzard gave up on retail wow when they dropped classic servers "we’ll give them classic to chew on for a bit because it’s low effort" while they should work on getting the warcraft fans back bing with what mattered and putting it back into the game, also change they goddamn patch content that everyone is bored of

[@crimsonpotemkin]

I decided to try it 2 months ago and now I'm done. Without nostalgia glasses there's nothing there. It's grindy, boring, tedious and not even fun. It's a game built for wasting time, nothing more. Even the exploration wasn't as interesting as I thought it would be. I expected exploration to be the biggest highlight of the whole thing even if the gameplay was outdated as shit. Turns out it's just okay.

[@srdjan455]

Is any MMO doing it? Nobody's talking about ESO, players are starting to turn on FF14. So what's left?

[@stahliboi6249]

WoW is such a weird game for me in recent years. I used to be a hardcore raider but now a days i find myself mount collecting most of the time.

[@SuperShadowGuard]

World Of Warcraft is very quickly reaching its 20 year anniversary and it's starting to show. It has not done anything truly revolutionary in such a long time that I don't blame people for getting tired of it and recommending other MMOs instead.

[@divinecomedian2]

This is the mindset that ruined WoW. It doesn't need to do revolutionary things. It just needs to do what it does best, which is provide an extremely immersive, beautiful world to adventure in with others. Blizzard should've focused on horizontal expansion rather than vertical with all of the silly changes that introduced. WoW is hardly a shadow of its former self, and it shows.

[@gustavohermandio1440]

you can offer an extremely immersive, beautiful world to adventure in with others while doing revolutionary things. they did nothing revolutionary. a mission table is not revolutionary. @@divinecomedian2

[@ldezzer3950]

My brother in christ WoW did more than a decade of MMO revolutions. You just take many of those as granted like a spoiled kid. Check out Classic, then boot up retail, and you'll see that both are absolutely different games in many, many ways.

[@Rei-Rei]

"starting"?

[@SuperShadowGuard]

@@divinecomedian2 Perhaps "revolutionary" isn't the right word for what I'm trying to say. World Of Warcraft has to do something different to get players back in because there are so many more MMOs out there that have done many of things WoW has done and more. While horizontal progression isn't revolutionary, it would certainly be a refreshing twist on the WoW formula. WoW has added a lot of account bound things recently, which is great, but one of the largest issues that I have with WoW is that nearly everything you do in a given expac is rendered irrelevant with the launch of the newest expansion. Some of the community's most liked features the game has ever had (like legiondaries and artifact weapons) have been rendered out of date by the way the expansion work. I would prefer to see WoW expansions work like GW2 expansions, where each one adds a whole bunch of new zones that are never rendered invalid by growing level caps. That is, horizontal progression, like you said. TL;DR Horizontal progression would be a nice change of pace for WoW IMO.

[@bustercherry2054]

I was extremely addicted to warcraft until mists I would quit jobs and play 16 hours everyday and looking back I lost a lot of my life I never left my bedroom I lost all my friends it was very unhealthy

[@Icycrits]

This is completely true. I *do* feel the itch to jump back into WoW (classic that is, retail is a total shitshow) but then I think to myself, OSRS feels a lot more rewarding and is constantly developing new content for the game, and it actually feels like the game has a future. What is the point of classic WoW? Do the same thing I did 15 years ago for more than a decade? No thanks, I've played it to death.

[@NopeAce631]

played until cataclysm and never looked back

[@douglasduda9826]

Honestly, As nice as it is that Wow has gotten so many people into MMOS. IT was also a huge negative. Everyone expects certain things to be in a MMO because its in Wow...But honestly some of those things were Not in mmos before and many That I liked for many different reasons. There were many Copy Cats of WOW over the years and all of them died. But now we gotta always overcome this shadow of wow...that people can't seem to shake. Its kinda no wonder I guess so few mmos are coming doing anything different and none really thrive or even survive.

[@jeremyroberge1570]

Thats fair. I just started vanilla classic and I must say, it's so good though. Community interactions are great, the world is fun to explore and since there's no expansion the world feels lived in. You go to stormwind any time of the day and you see all kinds of characters. People in full bis, bank alts etc. I get how it got popular in the first place. I tried retail last year for a few months and it wasn't it for me.

[@Alpha17x]

No one outside of WoW has ever wanted to follow through and pay after a bit of a demo; too much effort or not enough time to get to a point of playing with me.

[@Colancio]

From an OG wow player, playing retail feels wrong. Playing Classic is just playing the same as I played 12-15 years ago. And wow hardcore it's just stupid, the game was not designed to be played that way. Wow as a whole just lost all the "awe" it has. Blizz should develop another big IP and start over, but they made it easy and keep milking the same cow.