Icons vs Porn | with Matt Fradd

Matt Fradd from Pints with Aquinas get to know each other and we discuss iconography, religious art, nudity, pornography and how Christianity has found solutions to these questions.
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[@tessysingh1327]

Thank God for Jonathan Pageau who can intelligently push back on the Christopher West et al notion that nudity can be appreciated without the element of shame in man after the fall. Jonathan Pageau has a deep religious modesty/humility that recognizes the need for veiling or the skins of death to protect the human body from death/exploitation even in art.

[@greggeverman5578]

Perhaps so.

[@gabrielsyme4180]

51:30 “A young man may keep himself from vice by continually thinking of disease. He may keep himself from it also by continually thinking of the Virgin Mary. There may be question about which method is the more reasonable, or even about which is the more efficient. But surely there can be no question about which is the more wholesome.” -G.K. Chesterton, “Heretics”

[@monolith94]

Fantastic quote

[@servus_incognitus]

One can do so by continuously thinking about death. Dust thou art.

[@davidb4020]

Pornography is the devil's iconography - Blessed Seraphim Rose of Platina

[@ALLHEART_]

Wise words from a holy man. Fr. Seraphim Rose, pray for us!

[@strider_hiryu850]

Prostitution + iconography. As aposed to the sacred arts in the nude that aren't supposed elicit any lower desires.

[@Bolt892]

@@strider_hiryu850 Cope

[@paulywantsacracker69]

Wow

[@eightbittemplar7394]

@@Bolt892 Literally how is this cope?

[@VS-vv6pq]

This way of looking into christianity, finally gets to me. Like it makes sense.

[@LukasShannon]

Same here, and it keeps making more the more I listen!

[@seanbyers6736]

I was the exact same way. I always believed because I saw no alternative, but these two gents made what I believed comprehensible.

[@meusisto]

Same here! Former non-religious some years ago.

[@garrywindshield1]

Of course it does guys. When you embark on your own journeys you will meet things you need to learn and understand personally. That makes even more sense. You can't get that from KZbin or anywhere. Christiany is very discipline and work-oriented. Nothing can express the power of a mass. You have to experience that.

[@carlotapuig]

Julle Jönsselsön, same here

[@deathtoallpoets]

“Pornography is the devil’s iconography.” -Fr. Seraphim Rose

[@christianlacroix5430]

Based

[@Mrs_Puffington]

It doesn’t have to be though. If more genuine artists had the guts to play with erotic themes, we would have a different standard in this matter. Including education of course.

[@METAMORFOSIS36911]

@@Mrs_Puffington absolutely degenerate

[@Mrs_Puffington]

@Texas Why not? Or let's say, why can't an artist achieve it in his own way? I understand this is a thin line but I saw drawings of women that captured a true sense of character while also being kinda hot. So... isn't this bringing those opposites back together, making this image into something worth more than porn but also keeping the integrity of the soul (of the artist, the model/actor or whatever).

[@Mrs_Puffington]

@@METAMORFOSIS36911 For a personal insult your wording is incorrect. It should write: "Absolute degenerate." With this, you emphasize the person behind the comment and not just anything and everything. Also note the big letter at the start and the dot at the end, making it clear that this arranging of words is supposed to be a sentence. I hope this helps with further insults.

[@jacob5283]

"I'm just old and curmudgeonly. Everything pisses me off--it's not just Canada."

[@nicholasdonin1465]

Speaking of parlar, Laws and regulations are being replaced with terms and conditions.

[@mmyr8ado.360]

Rosseau's Social Contract 2.0

[@jeffreyeggstein329]

brilliant summation, the old eclipsed by the new

[@alkebulanawah4242]

Woah

[@no_more_anymore]

Great quote, I gotta share this around.

[@fr.timothycurren5592]

22:45 as one of my earliest spiritual fathers said “Atheism is a healthy response to bad theology”

[@ManuMiAS]

they are all egotistical with bubble circles.

[@suntzu7727]

I think it's more correct to say that atheism is SOMETIMES a reasonable response to bad theology. I don't believe in trying to be all kind with them given that atheism in it's current popular form is full of willfully ignorant people.

[@maxsiehier]

@@suntzu7727 He didn't say reasonable, he said healthy. It's healthy to deviate from bad theology and escape that whole scene because it's false and hypocritical. Atheism is then the most straightforward result. However it would be more reasonable to not disregard all of religion because of the bad environment you personally grew up in. So it would be more reasonable to stay a theist and seek better answers. More healthy too in the long run though.

[@therearenoshortcuts9868]

good theology is a response to shitty atheism

[@ironymatt]

There's nothing healthy about atheism. Someone has to both turn off their intellectual faculties and crank their ego to 11 to think making the claim with certainty that there's no God is a legitimate worldview. Simply that the claim can't be validated is reason enough to dismiss atheism.

[@fredwiedenmann2524]

The internet definitely makes the world smaller. I thought these guys lived in 2 seperate universes apparently not!... This is great!

[@Veronica-di4cj]

One can’t help but be captivated by Orthodoxy and it’s worldview. To an open heart- it is inevitable.

[@nuzzi6620]

Indeed, to a soft and open heart, the truth is like water to a parched land.

[@markmulfinger3922]

Yes you can say that again we have two lovely Russian orthodox families that have moved into our neighborhood and they have been an absolute blessing to us! I have had the privilege of going to their Saturday vespers and even singing with them in their choir it is very special-even celestial!

[@nuzzi6620]

@Jerfbahn Hernkel God bless and forgive you.

[@Charles-ij1ow]

Isn't a main difference the Orthodoxy says only they know how to interoperate the word where as protestants can read it for themselves?

[@jamememes4114]

The conversation about the distinction between the nudity of the garden and the nudity of the fall is amazing.

[@Herdingcats1917]

I love Jonathan. We are fellow Montrealers and I love his Symbolic World channel. He is 100% why I came back to the faith and his wise insights comfort me. Merci mille fois cher Jonathan!

[@pu3he]

"Somebody told me I should interview you". I was one of those (I guess I'm not the only one). What a great channel crossover theme! Thanks!

[@falstmusic]

So glad I found this content! Didn't know this level of conversation was on the internet

[@oambitiousone7100]

It’s a level that accompanies Pageau wherever he goes 😘

[@Felipe-lo7jm]

"As we're at home and we encounter the world only through internet, that becomes the frame of reality, so if you're able to control that frame, then you have control of what reality is." That was very, very nice.

[@justinseligman9539]

Really appreciated hearing about your personal habits, for prayer or otherwise, Jonathan. It's comforting to know I'm not the only one who gets incredibly distracted while attempting to pray.

[@trnslash]

Logos Rising! This should be a great interview

[@trnslash]

And it is!

[@solberg7049]

E michael jones:)

[@transcendentalarts5942]

When?

[@TheBlueSquidGamer]

I'm completely torn between the east (Orthodoxy) and the west (Catholicism) right now as I'm seeking to convert to one of the two. These are my two favorite people on the opposing "sides". I wish I didn't have to make a choice, I feel as if something is lost no matter what decision I make. The two lungs of the Church should not be divided. Pray for Unity. I realize this wasn't directly the point of this conversation but Matt's western reason based approach and Jonathan's eastern emphasis on mystery and symbolism were on clear display in this conversation.

[@transcendentalarts5942]

You're quoting from st john paul II about both lungs 😎

[@greggeverman5578]

Catholicism. My very blunt vote.

[@petars4444]

Take Eastern Catholicism, best from both worlds 😊

[@orthodoxchristianchurch5387]

Eastern Orthodox Church is the One and Only Church. There are no two "lungs". The Roman Catholics popes fell into many heresies, such as papism, which made them break away (1054 schism) from the other five ancient Christian (Eastern Orthodox) Patriarchates. There may be good people Roman Catholics, however the ex-orthodox Roman Catholic (papist) church remains to this day unrepentant in its false teachings and distortions of the true faith. For more info read from the Eastern Orthodox Saints (Saint Justin Popovich etc.)

[@c.s.froggis9982]

When I realized the true sadism and sex traffic and torture behind and as the bedrock of the industry I was at that point sick at any unwholesome imagery. I would recommend for anyone struggling with this to ask God the Father to give you acute insight into how he views this evil.

[@LukasShannon]

I am one of the returning Christians you evangelized after talking to JBP! It fills me with hope to see you platformed on popular media, and watching you leave your comfort zone to let the Holy Spirit use you is a deep source of inspiration. Would you ever seek ordination? God bless Jonathan Pageau!

[@carlakatemia2228]

Thank you Jonathan! I really liked how you remained polite yet firm in your defence of orthodoxy. Gog bless.

[@ClementPoh]

Fantastic, I'm neither Orthodox nor Catholic, but both of you are great!

[@matthewluisantero5051]

We'd love you to come over as part of the Tiber Swim Team

[@meusisto]

Are you a protestant? (I'll not pester you with unwanted preaching, just want to know more about the people with same interests here.)

[@ClementPoh]

@@meusisto Lol yes

[@SATMathReview1234]

It’s never too late to do the right thing

[@orthodoxchristianchurch5387]

Eastern Orthodox Church is the One and Only Church. There are no two "lungs". The Roman Catholics popes fell into many heresies, such as papism, which made them break away (1054 schism) from the other five ancient Christian (Eastern Orthodox) Patriarchates. There may be good people Roman Catholics, however the ex-orthodox Roman Catholic (papist) church remains to this day unrepentant in its false teachings and distortions of the true faith. For more info read from the Eastern Orthodox Saints (Saint Justin Popovich etc.)

[@handlebarfox2366]

"the sacrifices we're willing to make to get there" actually, the sacrifices they're going to make others pay to get what they want.

[@manuelmontiel8085]

I've been raised evangelical and still am, but love what you do. Keep up the great work!

[@edwardhall2067]

I'm a new catechumen, coming into the Orthodox Church next Lazarus Saturday, and I have to say that I have found a new love for Catholic brethren as I have journeyed into the Church. After 64 years as a serious Protestant, though cyclically falling into sin and repenting, always returning to Jesus, one of my two living sons and his wife became Catholic. They wonderfully shared with me what they were discovering, without judgmentalism, but lovingly, sharing their newly discovered walk with Jesus Christ in His Church, which led me to want to explore and examine, for the first time, really, the Catholic faith. I went through RCIA and the man leading the weekly catechism was a true man of God, a loving and good man who had a reputation as a solid believer among those friends of mine who knew him in the "near Pentecostal" church I had been faithfully attending for about 10 years. I almost entered into full communion with the Catholic Church, but decided to take a year, deepen my prayer life, and read more of the history of the church and the early fathers. I was at that time especially taken with the Didache and St. Athanasius. My other living son called me last August and asked me if I had ever looked into the Orthodox Church, and I had to admit that I had not taken a serious look at the Orthodox Faith. He sent me the links to introductory podcasts on Ancient Faith radio, and I began earnestly studying. In brief, I went to my first Divine Liturgy at an Antiochian Orthodox Church about a month later, and I was so moved I simply could not imagine any other path for me. I decided to comment here because of the mention of some Orthodox vitriol towards Catholics or the Catholic Faith, and that to me is simply incomprehensible. Where is the humility in vitriol? Where is the love? If we are to attain to the unity of the faith, each of us individually must cease "doing business as usual." Thank both of you for your work in communicating the faith in action, as we need to live it and learn it!

[@LeapWithGabriel]

"Pornography is the iconography of the devil." - Father Seraphim Rosa

[@benis3551]

What a delightful interview. And wonderful art, Mr. Pageau.

[@JackPitts]

I really appreciated hearing you two dive deep into the comparison between Roman Catholic and Orthodox aesthetics. One thing that wasn't quite addressed directly was the reason that sensuality should be avoided outright. I think the discussion of the importance of keeping some things hidden--even in religious visual presentations--is really helpful though.

[@steveb9713]

I used to not understand why people might worship a golden idol, but now I imagine if you took away all our technology and made a golden Kim kardashian people would worship it

[@ironymatt]

Her fans could probably argue that their obsession with her doesn't constitute actual worship, but it's difficult to say with a straight face that the end result doesn't essentially amount to the same thing.

[@alkebulanawah4242]

100%

[@joela.5933]

you want to understand why people bow down and worship idols? because they say it represents the god that they serve. but that practice is forbidden by God through His law... “You shall have no other gods before me. “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them..." “You shall not make idols for yourselves or erect an image or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land to bow down to it, for I am the Lord your God." “What profit is an idol when its maker has shaped it, a metal image, a teacher of lies? For its maker trusts in his own creation when he makes speechless idols! "

[@alkebulanawah4242]

@@joela.5933 interesting

[@Janine11155]

I think I already know people who do that

[@TheBlueSquidGamer]

I could've listened to 20 hours of this.

[@thamill3826]

33:00:00 Jonathan is so respectful about naked people in art from a catholic perspective. I’m catholic and I would be very happy if there were never naked people in the church. And honestly in any art I personally come across.

[@alexanderderus2087]

Absolutely brilliant. So happy to see you two talking to each other.

[@andrewmarusic1975]

see book: "Libido Dominandi: Sexual Liberation as Political Control" by Dr. E. Michael Jones

[@nicholaswatson4777]

Yes I'm so excited!!!! This is one of the best crossovers on the Internet!!

[@gtbtone]

For those of you young men like me who have struggled with pornography, keep looking to Christ instead. There’s no greater example of a masculine figure to look up to than him. Pray everyday.

[@ata5855]

Yes, prayer and mortification. Also, this "mantra", of sorts: Magnificat anima mea Dominum (my soul doth magnify the Lord).

[@marinbilic2893]

24:58 starts to talk about the topic

[@HoradrimBR]

Jonathan, as a catholic that studies art a little, and some theology, I can see clearly that the conflict between the tradicional catholic understanding and the liberal/modern understanding is alive, and your opinion on this subject is totaly aligned with the traditional Roman catholic one. I can see clearly as well the influence of John Paul II on the thought of Matt that IS NOT the traditional way AT ALL. This tension is expressed comparing the Renassence (that is paganism) and Barroque (same technic covering the bodies) I would ad that there's a contrast between medieval (gothic) and barroque statues when It comes to movement (your statues are very alike many gothic ones).

[@servus_incognitus]

I wish this comment would get more attention. There is a reason why medieval art looks like it does. You know what, I'll post a comment I made here below this one so you can see.

[@servus_incognitus]

Hail Virgin Mother of God and Glory to Jesus Christ! You can actually see quite clearly the spiritual course of society represented in the art of certain periods. First you got the classical sculpture, which depicted a humanistic, naturalistic side of the human, being obsessed with realism, that is, with the material world. Then comes the middle ages, a period where the Church instituted itself at the top of the hierarchy of the whole civilization, in which Christ reigned, and thus there was Christendom. In this period we see the art style become above all, symbolic, not trying to recreate materiality and nature, but seeking to penetrate it and elevate it to its profound meaning, that is, Spiritual meaning. Then, not as a coincidence, along with the end of the middle ages, of feudalism, of that structure that had the Sacred at its top, a period where the temporal power, the kings of the world started to dismiss the influence of the Church, a period of "reinassance" of paganism, of naturalism/humanism, of mercantilism (a sign showing that the concerns of the world had turned to material, financial things) and protestantism (which is nothing more than a humanistic, profane view of Christianity), anyway, along with all of that, comes a period of art which loses all of its symbols and deeper meaning, and it is obsessed with realism, with the complexities of representing matter as it is, not in a transcedental way, but in a way that fixes us on the mere worldly experience. That then, unfortunately, takes over religious art. So you could say, in a way, that post-reinassance religious art is profane, rather than sacred, if not in its theme, certainly in its structure.

[@servus_incognitus]

Here it is.

[@TheAnadromist]

Interestingly Hans Rookmaaker the great Dutch art historian associated with L'Abri also divided the nude between the shameful and that without shame. He said that anyone who could look at, say, the Jan Van Eyck Eve with sexual thoughts had a problem since the woman is portrayed in her purity. Also it is clear in the Old Testament that when Eve wears the skins to cover herself it is only for the groin area covered not the breasts. So what is and what isn't proper in art from a Christian point of view is always complex. And it is also dependent on the culture. In Bali traditionally women never covered their breasts yet showing the ankle was considered obscene. He points out that the two things that push a work into the wrong area are showing the opened private parts of the woman and the erection of the man. After that we have to consider the meaning of the work as the artist intended. After all the Bible also contains the Song of Solomon, which is tremendously sensual.

[@ALLHEART_]

CS Lewis actually has some great words you can easily find on Christian sexual morality and modesty. You can find readings of them here on KZbin. He mentions how this is somewhat culture-specific. One question, though: what makes you say it's obvious that, in the OT, Eve only covers her groin and not her chest? Not saying you're incorrect, just wondering where in the text your refering to.

[@demetriusmiddleton1246]

I also am interesting in understanding more about Eve and the covering issue you referenced.

[@TheAnadromist]

@@ALLHEART_ It's in the Hebrew. Most of our images of Adam and Eve are artist intepretations.

[@TheAnadromist]

@@demetriusmiddleton1246 The word in Hebrew in Genesis clear denotes the thigh area. Breasts are not included as nakedness in the sense we often think of them. The breast of a woman are considered special and related to comfort. Yet there are no verses in the Old Testament that consider the breasts of a woman to be somehow obscene. I think many of our attitudes towards the female body were formed both by the extreme prudishness of the Victoria Era and the extreme reaction to that in the 20th Century. There are no strip tease shows as we know them prior to the 20th Century. Likewise there is no culture as obsessed with covering up as the 19th Century. Rookmaaker speculated that this was because people were reacting to the rationalist notions as expressed by Diderot in the French Encyclopedia that essentially there was no real difference between man, plant animal or thing. So the Bourgeoisie to proclaim there was a difference overreacted by considering the human body to be far too special. That the mere sight of it might destroy one. Neither the flaunting nor the hiding of the female form represent a biblical perspective.

[@ALLHEART_]

@@TheAnadromist Makes sense. Orthodox icons don't actually depict Eve with her chest covered by fig leaves after the Fall, only her groin. You'll only see her chest covered when she's given the garments of skin. This doesn't seem objectionable to me. I'd like to know what the Septuagint says here, too.

[@paoloromolini]

I'm catholic and totally agree with Jonathan Pageu on the depiction of nudity in sacred art. Amazing conversation by the way, I'm a passionate viewer of both your youtube channels. You should do another chat about the church fathers.

[@thamill3826]

Same!!

[@kbeetles]

This was so enjoyable! I love Jonathan's uncompromising simplicity. He does not need to endear himself with anybody. What a treasure! He even risks losing the mandatory standing which would be expected from an artist - I mean a REAL artist! ) i.e. the "duty" for an undisciplined approval of the sensual body in an image (if it is "art" and not "pornography")...Hmmmm......special thanks for this, Jonathan!! What he said about the Logos manifesting the world ( physical existence) is beginning to make sense to the phrase "in His image", which puzzles me a lot.....Thank you both, guys!

[@micahcartwright2341]

This conversation was very much needed. Thank you for your work.

[@xaviorjimenez2227]

Jonathan was my first introduction into Orthodoxy, not knowing anything about it. And now in Orthodox! A very brilliant mind and his take on creation is genius.

[@matthewclarknet]

Jonathan and Matt, thanks so much for this conversation.

[@rowanconley4212]

You are two of my favorite people on KZbin. I have recently converted to Catholicism from Anglicanism. The rest of my family were converts to Orthodoxy from Anglicanism. I have been watching Jonathan for 5 years +. I was just recently introduced to Matt. I love seeing you both together.

[@sudosara]

"The traditionalists and the soy boys" 54:18 😂😂

[@triscat]

This was such a great and freewheeling discussion. Thank you!

[@phrankenstein-wrongthinker1994]

Wonderful dialog while trying like hell to not be distracted by the inexplicable electrical outlet 6 foot up the wall over Pageau's head.

[@phrankenstein-wrongthinker1994]

@QQminusS Wisdom check or intel check? Who am I kidding. I have -1 on either roll.

[@phrankenstein-wrongthinker1994]

@QQminusS I am truly screwed then HA

[@David_Brinkerhoff93]

Im a Latter-Day Day Saint listening to a Catholic and an Orthodox Christian. How did we get here?

[@PintsWithAquinas]

And it seems you're a C&C fan. :)

[@bbnoblebright]

Beautiful conversation! Much love from a Catholic brother. It’s fascinating to hear your cultural commentary from the perspective of an artist. Regarding your comment on the sensuality of post Renaissance, western art: I’m reminded of a rather (in)famous scene in Mishima’s Confession of a Mask, and a certain depiction of St. Sebastian... I understand the argument of Matt here that there is a sense in which we can look on the naked body through, as it were, redeemed eyes, but that requires a great deal of holiness, and the occasion for sin presented by the viewing thereof is very real. At the risk of being labeled a “prude”, I agree that it’s best to avoid nudity, and especially idealized nudity, at least in sacred art.

[@edwardhall2067]

I need to add that my other son and his wife are also catechumens, who will be coming into the Orthodox Church as well! We are so excited and both of us have a new love and appreciation for our Catholic brethren! My other son, and his wife and two daughters are orthodox Catholics, devout, loving, and true followers of Jesus Christ, and we therefore share our joy with them.

[@Chicken_Little_Syndrome]

"He..James Joyce... distinguishes between what he calls proper and improper art. Proper art of course means art performing a function that is proper to art. The kind of function only art can serve. And improper art is art in the service of something else." "Now that’s the big thing. I see some notes being taken so draw a line down the middle of the page and put on the left “proper” and on the right “improper” and the whole thing will come out very clearly." "Proper art, says Joyce, is “static” and improper art is “kinetic.” Kinisis, as you know, means movement and Stasis, as you know, means standing still." "Kinisis: Improper art is kinetic in that it moves the observer either to desire, positive, or to loathe or fear, negative, that object represented. That’s clear and simple. Improper art is kinetic, it moves the observer either to desire or to refuse, to fear or hate the object represented. Art that moves you to desire is pornography. The Supreme Court of the United States can’t define pornography, therefore, that’s what we have. All advertising art is pornographic. You are going through a magazine and you see a picture of a beautiful refrigerator and beside it stands a lovely girl with lovely refrigerator teeth. And you think, I love refrigerators like that. Pornography. Picture of a dear old lady and you think, “Oh, lovely old sweet soul, I’d love to have a cup of tea with that dear lady.” That’s pornography. You go into a ski buffs department and you see pictures of ski slopes and you think, “oh, wow, to go down slopes like that.” Pornography." "You get it? It has to do with a relationship to the object that’s that of social, physical or otherwise action. You are not held in aesthetic arrest. Wow. What a picture. You get the point?" - Joseph Campbell

[@toninewilson651]

James Joyce had a fascination with scatology-yech!

[@Tartersauce101]

That might be one of the more profound things I've read. 👍

[@bruh-gf3no]

Caught this early! Thank you for all that you do Jonathan!

[@BowarePL]

The greatest crossover in the history of my subscribtion tab

[@PsychoBible]

"Flesh this out" . . . No pun intended, LOL

[@Shadeborne]

Is there a word for a Conspiracy where the "conspirators" are working in tandem towards a common goal without actually conspiring. The situation with Parler, where Google, Apple, and Amazon all did their part to destroy Parler, is an example of this. If there isn't a word, we should come up with one.

[@LukasShannon]

This is how spirits work toward a goal. Human beings are just their hosts.

[@LukasShannon]

@Can't Ban Jesus Very true. Diamonds form under pressure. Evil spirits may intrude, seduce, impose, consume, and ultimately destroy their hosts, but good spirits invite, share, teach, create, and protect their hosts. The wheat is being separated from the chaff. The distillate of eternal truth emerges from fire in purity and clarity. We worship the resurrected God.

[@danielgaughan4243]

Definitely a satanic hive mind. They also send through tv broadcasts, news stories with numbers and signs. I honestly think this cult communicates with jeopardy (the show). But they are surely one cult despite different companies and political parties. They can sense, too, if they're around someone that isn't "of the body" as they said in star trek original series. Like Invasion of the body snatchers where if someone exhibited emotion. Was a giveaway. Didn't answer your question but felt like commenting.

[@chrisc7265]

this is a conspiracy ... they are conspiring, clearly I don't think we need to go PC and start inventing new words cause "conspiracy" has been dragged through the mud

[@meusisto]

Who said they are not conspiring?

[@faithandlightsteubenville5691]

Awesome Discussion!

[@henrik_worst_of_sinners]

"opinons of the fathers" - Matt fradd quote of the week

[@kevinprice8627]

Thank you for this conversation. This is wonderful!

[@aestroai8012]

I'm amazed that porno is addictive. Speaking personally, it just gets boring, and I feel dumber for watching it. Porn is also someone else's sexuality, and it's usually completely devoid of any plot or acting which is why it can kill sex drive. It's as fake as pro wrestling.

[@greggeverman5578]

Not a bad point.

[@jeremysette3657]

Great conversation!

[@VACatholic]

Glad you did this! Looking forward to it.

[@fragwagon]

Fantastic discussion with the exact right person. Bravo, Matt (and Jonathan)

[@domesday1535]

this was a fantastic discussion, loved every part of it!

[@Beastinvader]

I would love for either of you to discuss C. S. Lewis's book, Perelandra, with this issue of art in mind. On Perelandra (Venus) Ransom encounters an "Eve" woman. He has to save her from an evil earthling who is tempting her. The nakedness of the woman and also of Ransom played some minor role.

[@ALLHEART_]

The key point with Perelandra is that the Eve character is nude, but nude in such a way that Ransom feels no lust toward her. Very interesting.

[@readgreatbooks9077]

I love that book. Just reread it.

[@ALLHEART_]

@@readgreatbooks9077 Its fantastic

[@MissPopuri]

The Venus character, or Eve, was meant to be original innocence before any knowledge of the Fall. You saw the same thing with some of the creatures on Mars who were not exposed to sin.

[@elliotwalton6159]

I haven't had Eucharist or seen the inside of a church since February of 2020 (maybe early March before lock down). I have to admit that your presentations on iconography and conversations with other people have been my Church for the last year.

[@peppy619]

Omg! Yes! Finally!

[@greggeverman5578]

That's OMGosh, right? Just asking.

[@Thabosshoss]

Great conversation! And subscribed!

[@c.s.froggis9982]

Beautiful and inspiring carvings Jonathan!

[@therealzarathustra7108]

The Master said, 'I suppose I should give up hope. I have yet to meet the man who is as fond of virtue, as is he is of beautiful women.' -Confucius

[@BobWangwenyi23]

When I watch this, I feel the worlds are colliding! I am anticipating (more like hoping) that Jonathan will have a conversation with Capturing Christianity, Unbelievable and Speak Life minsitry...

[@stevenanderson4515]

I'm hearing this and soooooo happy that I live in the country

[@alexwarstler9000]

Y’all need to get back together again! This interview was amazing!

[@PsychicAlchemy]

I've never had any interest in Christianity as I tend to be drawn more toward Buddhism and Paganism. But over time I've come to see that the reason I dislike Christianity is because it has lost its way, and fallen into the very same materialism it preaches against. Fitting, as the current age is the second half of Pisces; the anti-Christ fish. Only when we resolve this paradox of spiritualism and materialism can we do as Christ said, and follow the man who bears a jug of water into the next age. Aquarius is the age of he who carries his own consciousness. Jonathan makes Catholicism in particular very appealing.

[@nuzzi6620]

Jonathan is Orthodox.

[@greggeverman5578]

Catholicism is the new Atheism. I mean that in a good way.

[@JohnchapterVersesand]

Wonderful conversation. Was reading about Saint Bernard of clairvaux's view on too many Romanic style arts in Catholic church so he intended to ignore the distractions so he did Romanic Cistercian structure Catholic churches which has less iconic arts so that Benedictine monks could pray without too many distractions. Jonathan pageau is right about nudity in arts is not good.

[@JohnchapterVersesand]

@@newlin83 relax bro. Even The clergy themselves tries to destroy Catholic church and it not worked for 2000 years. So, let's pray for Catholic church forever. It's HIS church , Hades will never prevail it.

[@robertlehnert4148]

Jimmy Aiken said, when Catholic Answers was doing a tour of Australia, and Jimmy got posed, at one Question and Answer section... "What da ya think about Jenga?" Jimmy was perplexed, but answered that he thought it was a perfectly innocent party game, suitable for both adults and children, and then Jimmy saw the questioner was even more confused, until the questioner realized what the problem was... "GEN-da!, GEN-da, what do you think about GEN-da(r)?" Just barely bringing in the "r" at the end.

[@standandelivery]

Gin-duh, lol

[@rockybarookie906]

The Anglican church did not split from the Roman Catholic Church Henry the 8th turned his back on the church he excommunicated himself placing himself outside of the Catholic Church once he defended it then he turned his back on it he became apostate denying Rome he set up his own church to get his own way he set up his own church so he could make himself the head of it

[@IronKing66]

It's cool cause I've actually met Matt Frad's sister; she has/had a band. Cool chick

[@joshuaforeman2611]

Icons discussion begins 13:00 roughly

[@rockybarookie906]

When you look at an icon when a case of statue that is sacred it fills the mind with everything that is Holy then impure thoughts can't enter your mind

[@henryramosacosta7746]

I am a year late but I agree with the sentiment that icons help heal with porn addiction. Obviously not a silver bullet. The reason I think it can be a large component to healing is because porn is a sin people tend to commit with their vision whereas icons use your vision to draw one (albeit, slowly) deeper into the divine life which is healing. Not a substitute or panacea can be more helpful than people recognize

[@sunbro6998]

I too have to often rewatch Jon's videos.

[@truantj]

Jonathan was so gentle with this poor Trad Cath. Beautiful.

[@alfredolebron1428]

47:00 what about representing the Holy Spirit with fire and doves?

[@bzar_q]

Thanks for this dialogue!

[@eliascalisto7247]

Great talk.

[@aprilnelly]

Nice conversation. Matt searching for a loophole?! Thank you guys.

[@quad9363]

Your beard looks so great, Matt!

[@LEPOREcloud]

Even in the garden Adam and Eve were clothed in the glory of God.

[@AprendeMovimiento]

Yes!!! I was waiting for this, you guys made my day. I can see how God is bringing his people together in union.

[@JaredandTasha]

It really is hard to talk about anything other than whats going on right now. Glad im not the only one who feels that way.

[@admiralmurat2777]

It's simply a power dynamic. Asymmetrical warfare. In a world where individuals have an ever increasing ability to cause significant damage the state in response will increase it's ability to respond & destroy you.

[@andyk2181]

Something I struggle to understand from an atheist viewpoint is how Christianity views sexual expression. If we are created in God's image, and have been created as sexual beings, how should this be manifest? You seem to be arguing that the only answer to this is within marriage. I'm sure you'd agree that marrying someone out of lust wasn't a good idea, and there are also many people who struggle to form relationships because of childhood abuse / trauma and would thus be denied any form of sexual expression. The tantric traditions are the only thing that really came to mind where sexual expression is encouraged while also being framed in a spiritual way. Does Christianity offer any answer to this, or is it that any sexual expression outside of marriage is sinful?

[@LukasShannon]

You might like C.S Lewis's take on this. Check out the C.S. Lewis Doodles video on sexual morality.

[@andyk2181]

@@LukasShannon Thanks for the share. I found two doodles. The first about a right to 'sexual happiness', while I agreed with some of the points, didn't address the health / expression of sexual being. I think this reduction of the need and benefits of sex are part of the problem. He did however attempt to address this more in the other doodle. He did seem to present a flawed argument by assuming that what was generally true of society was also true of every individual. Obesity is a growing problem but there are still people who are malnourished, often due to the very childhood issues my question was based upon, I think the scientific literature on eating disorders would support me but I'm not an expert on this area. You can't then apply the argument of excesses to someone who is lacking, but they may be driven to junk food which fails to fulfill the nutrition need... to continue the analogy. Saying "don't eat junk food" does not put fruit on the table... and thus I'm back to where I started. Maybe there was an answer in there somewhere but I didn't see it.

[@ManuMiAS]

@@andyk2181 they are just all hypocrites, they don't have an answer, preachy.

[@andyk2181]

@@ManuMiAS I think that's true of many people, they fail to understand or live up to the ideals of Christianity (or whatever religion they practice). I'm hoping that religious philosophers, who would be attracted to this channel, might have more to offer.

[@ManuMiAS]

@@andyk2181 they can't they need religion to control the masses.

[@orangesox915]

Great stuff. Thank you.

[@matthewgalicia1101]

finally figured out why I couldn't understand Pageau for the longest time, its St. Maximus the Confessor. i can't get that guy, but I am starting to

[@evgeny9965]

In my church we all received from a common cup . I have received from a common cup for 30 years with hundreds of others and never got sick. BTW only with the antidoron were separate paper cups used.

[@greggeverman5578]

21:18 Sums up the Jordan Peterson movement very well!

[@ianfrancis777]

Captivating discussion that is refreshing muse to one who is presently Pentecostal/Wesleyan/ from a Roman Catholic upbringing. What more can I say? I'm glad I happened upon your channel (Instantly subbed).

[@demetriusmiddleton1246]

I have heard it explained by many, including Pageau, numerous times how God is manifested via The Logos (and thus Jesus Christ) - but this time I gained considerably more clarity and an even greater sense of wonder regarding that concept / truth. I think it was the conventional nature of the explanation combined with the questioner asking the same questions that i was thinking at the very same time as i was thinking those questions, combined with the non-condescending / non-fluffy manner in which the questions were answered. This was a great conversation! Thank you both.

[@oldmum1524]

Re: State's claim of carte blanche to "stop the dying" -- this should be rewritten to "stop the dying FROM COVID" because deaths will rise from suicide, domestic abuse, undetected cancers, abandoned seniors, etc. And this all assumes that lock-downs stop COVID deaths, when there is actually a study out showing that more-strict lockdowns show more COVID death than less-strict lockdowns.

[@claymcdermott718]

I really believe that the state’s biggest boosters believe they can abolish death (subconsciously). AOC saying that Medicare-for-all would stop people from paying for funerals (which only makes sense if it makes people immortal), indicates this belief; the average person believes that more money on preventative care, will save money (which only makes sense if it keeps people from the dying-process ever). Quietly, in the back of their mind, they think the government can wish death away.

[@jimmyhartmanbass]

This is such a good talk.