Illegal Warhammer vs Legal Warhammer

[@BenjisHobbies]

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[@ThatGuyKal]

Thanks, needed some new brushes :)

[@John2r1]

You do realize that all of games workshops models are 3d painted. After which they do the clean up work which is literally the only difference. If you have good quality resin and are willing to put the time in to get a more detailed model out of it there almost identical in terms of quality. It's all about the quality of the base material and the detail level.of the program being used. It's honestly a good thing that the 3d painted models require some extra work to make them on par with Games Workshops 3d printed models. Doing the work yourself give a hit of appreciation in the the work done when you do choose to buy a model you can't 3d print for whatever reason. Usually to do with the physical restrictions of your set up. Most people don't buy the very top of the line 3d printers. Ps. Thanks for the link to the brushes needed to get some new ones.

[@ThatGuyKal]

@@John2r1 I thought they only 3D print the prototypes and then they print the masters, clean them up good and make a mold for mass production.

[@John2r1]

@@ThatGuyKal it's easier and cheaper to use 3d printing for mass production. Granted their using high end 3d printers and more detailed programming. They use to use molds . But technology changes. In either case the process is effectively the same. And the real differences are in the quality of the resin and that they do all the clean up work.

[@lewissmith5759]

this code isnt working for me

[@bogatyr2473]

I have to disagree with the statement that the prices are justified. My reasoning is simple, Gundam and model aircraft and tanks exist. Gundam kits are well designed enough to articulate and fit together fantasitcally with push fit design. They even come with decals and in multiple colors per kit, never mind the shear volume of plastic in the box which is typically dollar for dollar about three times as much as GW.

[@Trinioutsider34]

Gunpla model kits are insanely priced as well. You have a community of people who bash Bandai for their pricing of kits and wait for bootleg versions of certain kits to come out and buy them. There are companies like Super Nova, Dragon Momoko, and Daban that people praise because of their prices compared to Bandai, yet their bootleg kits are built like trash and weak-ass plastic. When Bandai goes after them for protecting their IP the bootleg community gets pissed off and starts attacking Bandai.

[@unestegosaurio8002]

@@Trinioutsider34 bruh, a single contemptor dreadnought cost 60$, and its tiny asf, with that you can buy a MG gunpla, that has more things on it

[@Trinioutsider34]

@@unestegosaurio8002 I don't know where you're getting MG kits for 60$. But where I live MG kits ain't that cheap and aren't getting cheaper either.

[@AngusBeef0]

@@unestegosaurio8002 MG and RG Gunpla priced compared to GW models (which uses all 1 plastic compared to gundam's color range) is shameful really and that's on top of needing couple hundred in literature to use your toys, which don't move like gunpla either...

[@Steampoweredgeekery]

So checking Hobby Link Japan shows master grade Gundam models going from 20 USD to 115 USD.

[@joel6376]

>justified when overheads are taken into account Yes, all those lawyers are expensive.

[@nemisous83]

This is why GW refuses to outsource production so they can keep prices high because they can cope and say "bro we are such a small shop"

[@nikushim6665]

​@@nemisous83 GW outsources a large chunk of its injection molding oversea's. The whole "Its all made in Nottingham" is a outright lie.

[@MrDUCKMAN5555]

While i understand that game workshop has alot of cost for things but sometimes they take the piss £65 for a one model is insane and the fact they can make deals with 3rd party companies to sell them cheaper clearly shows the cost of the model is not as high as they make it out to be

[@DeepbloodFang]

the price tag is not in the mini, it's in the "premium". I worked in toll, actually handled quite a few of these mini's, and I can tell you, they don't even cost a 1/5th of what GW is asking for them.

[@akantor0811]

sometimes take the piss? it costs around 5 quid if that for fully customizable squad of resin to print off a squad of terminators Games workshop want 30-40 for them and they are dated looking games workshop have been ripping people off for years and for the ones saying but the rules ect.... they wont stop making the rules while they still sell games im not saying they shouldnt make money but dont mark up 400% on plastic kits from over 10 years ago also remember GW sent us out finecast happily knowing it was a shit version of the plastic molds and still increased the cost of them

[@IPrint3dMinis]

@@akantor0811 Resin print all my WH stuff. GW is too pricey, especially if you are looking for out of print, or just artist creations. I am not into the WH game, but I am more of a collector, so for me $100+ for one model is just too much. Not when I can print a model for $5, or buy a Chinese version for $10-$20.

[@wakkru]

@@DeepbloodFang That's exactly why a single Commando unit costs the same as a 10 Model box

[@euansmith3699]

😂😂😂 Have you seen any of Squidmar Minis' videos about assembling a Forge World Tau Manta? What an absolute chore that was.

[@Luke-md7up]

The fact is game workshop is incentivizing 3rd party models by their unnecessary high prices. As far as I’m concerned they can suck it. Don’t try to extort your customers and they’ll by your models instead of looking for alternatives.

[@Trinioutsider34]

There are legit no 3rd party Warhammer miniatures. If GW isn’t outsourcing their IP to anyone else. Those recast miniatures that are being sold are considered bootleg. I see this same sorter argument in the Gunpla community.

[@demon1103]

@@Trinioutsider34 Sure there are....it's called other companies and 3d printing proxies. Can go to Mantic and pick up some Riftforge Orcs to be used as Ironjaws. There are plenty of 3d printing alternative models that will fit just fine and are legally distinct.

[@Trinioutsider34]

@@demon1103 Who has GW outsourced their IP to so they can recast their miniatures for their game?

[@demon1103]

@@Trinioutsider34 Oh I wasn't talking about recasts. On that I will grant you. I was just saying there are 3rd party Warhammer models in the form of proxies.

[@Luke-md7up]

@@Trinioutsider34 there most certainly are third party models. It’s the reason why even in their own sponsored tournaments they allow these models as long as they’re close enough to the originals. And btw they don’t have to license there IP for it to be 3rd party. GM has incentivize this by arbitrarily charging outrageous prices. I by my main pieces from them. The rest I go to third parties and 3D print them.

[@proposterous2808]

For anyone who thinks GW's pricing is in any way fair, I'd recommend you research gunpla; the most expensive (MSRP-wise) model to date is the MGEX Unicorn gundam, priced at 230-250 USD. This model comes with a crap load of accessories, a display base, and LEDs. Now let's compare this to something of around the same size: a Warhound Titan. The MSRP of a Warhound Titan is, according to forge world, 621 USD. this is a model that doesn't even include the Titan's limbs or any weaponry, mind you. All you get for the price of mid-end graphics card is the torso, legs, and head of a figure barely the size of two coffee mugs. Mind you, this is a resin kit with no arms being sold for almost 3 times the price of a high quality, posable plastic kit which includes a display base, literally a whole armory, and LEDs. That's without mentioning the cost to the distributors to get the damn thing from japan. Now, tell me, do you still think GW's pricing is fair? When you can get a kit like the PG Strike Gundam, which stands at around 30cm, is completely posable, highly detailed and durable, and comes with a few accessories for the same price you could get Mortarion, who is either the size of a coffee cup or as small as a box of tiktaks depending on which version you get; I ask you - where is the "fair pricing"?

[@z-mkgaming7464]

The manta is £2000. That is a high level gaming pc or a good chunk of your child's education fees

[@Trinioutsider34]

As someone from the Gunpla community. I'll tell ya now, some people hate Bandai's pricing and defend bootleg kits. Been in that community for years before getting into Warhammer. That community ain't any better when it comes to people complaining about pricing on Bandai's kit. They always insist the bootleg companies put out better kits than Bandai to defend themselves in buying bootleg kits.

[@ysbrann3059]

@@Trinioutsider34 people will always find excuse to justify immoral act like stealing etx.

[@Trinioutsider34]

@@ysbrann3059 Yup and that's the lay of the land. The Gunpla community, Warhammer, and gaming community are full of people like that. And when they get caught stealing they ask why.

[@ysbrann3059]

i am prety sure Gundam model are not made for table top game.

[@stingray4567]

Some other points to consider; - Recasts can be the only way to get old models that GW no longer wants to sell. I just wish GW would license 3rd parties to recast/sell OOP models in a legit way (I wish, but dont for a second think they ever will...) - 3D printing also allows you to print at different scales e.g. scale up for some inquisitor RPG 54mm scale minis or (my favourite) down to 15mm 40k. We really need to make 15mm 40k a thing.

[@ForTehNguyen]

forgeworld is it its own worst enemy with its cost, chronic out of stock inventory, long shipping times. You can find recasts that will arrive in 3 weeks for 1/3 the cost. Then sometimes the recast resin quality is better than FWs

[@BenjisHobbies]

Good points! Thanks for contributing something positive to the conversation!

[@Captain_Tadpole]

@@ForTehNguyen I was done with FW dreams after watching a Manta unboxing and seeing the incredibly bad shape it showed up in.

[@proposterous2808]

@@BenjisHobbies "something positive to the conversation" = something that doesn't conflict with your excuses for GW's pricing and your blatant ignorance of and disregard for their misconduct and failings as a company. Man, you really must be starved for "positivity"

[@BenjisHobbies]

@@proposterous2808 ‘misconduct’ 😂 Dude, get out of your mums basement and go and touch some grass.

[@KappaKiller108]

The fact that GW sold us a new Contempt Dread kit, then REMOVED IT FROM THE GAME in less than 11 months is straight up crazy. They cant, at once, say you cant use thord party minis while also forcibly devaluing the minis you already bought from them by removing them from the game without massive fan resentment

[@charlesslaton5924]

And THAT is the real issue here.

[@WardenOfTerra]

They didn't remove it from the game at all. They removed it from competitive play for tournaments as it's less to balance. Find better friends that aren't meta cucks.

[@frontiervirtcharter]

Seems like they named it for how they feel about their customers...

[@hutchy1k94]

Anybody tells me my 3d proxies are illegal when I'm at a friendly club game, I tell tell them if they buy it for me, I'll use it. You know what they are, they're the same size, have the correct options... if you're gonna bite my head of about how that siege claw arm on that leviathan isn't official, you can go right ahead and either buy me the real one, or give me the money to buy a real one. I simply don't have the money for genuine models anymore. An stl and some resin, totally, but £35 for a basic-bitch troop choice? Hell no.

[@jizzchugger]

For real so many other companies provide hobbyists with good quality models for a third of the price it’s so annoying that i can’t afford it just because GW is too greedy

[@nikushim6665]

What does it matter if they are "unofficial" are not. Its not like it gains you any unfair advantage. As long as it follows the tabletop rules it shouldn't matter. No point shilling for a company who just wants to drain you for every penny. Mean while you can turn around and look at companies like Catalyst who just go F it print whatever you want, hell use cardboard cutouts proxies. We are happy people are just playing it.

[@CRAM079]

The issue with official models is that they are sold at practically a 4000% markup. Raw materials for those models is obsurdly cheap. GW as a business is very greedy and definitely price gouging.

[@thomasgross8289]

Yeah look at loot studio for example 70 models for $15.....GW 5 models for $45.

[@syndromBE]

@@thomasgross8289 that is such a stupid comparison lol. GW price includes packaging, graphic design for the boxes, studio paintjobs, marketing, factory costs,... Loot studio is a group of people who sculpt models and then just put them online, they have very little overhead costs.

[@grumpyhobbit4689]

@@syndromBE you are absolutely correct. still GW prices are bullshit.

[@syndromBE]

@@grumpyhobbit4689 i wasn't defending the prices. Just stating it's not a fair comparison. Plus for loot you have to invest in a printer and resin.

[@CRAM079]

@@syndromBE a one time $300 purchase and a $20-30 bottle of resin that lasts for tons of prints pays for itself in no time. I invested in a resin printer ans have gotten so much out of it.

[@jw32767]

Per their last financial report, GW’s profits are ~50% of their revenues. They could cut their prices in half and still pay all their employees.

[@Geostationary0rbit]

Understand that is looking at GW's overall financial report, preportionally the area seeing most growth is digital games, if the imbalence continues over time, and 3d printing continues to harm profits made by fabricateing minitures then you should expect significant changes to to GW's bussness model, like moveing its operations to china. Gone are the days where the guy running the show actully has a connection to the product, it is now a former hasbro exsec, so don't expect it to lean over backwards to keep its operations in Nottingham. And as of the past 5 or so years GW now considers its minitures bussness a collectables bussness instead, identifying that audience as the ones provideing the most profit, not wargamers.

[@03dashk64]

EXACTLY! Their profits vs their overhead show the prices really aren’t “necessary.” Just preferable. They can’t even use the “pay for the design” excuse when they are raising the prices significantly on old sculpts from the 90’s / early 2000’s (looking at you Skaven)

[@BlazeHeroic]

I don't think you understand how financials work. Just because they are making 50% profit on miniatures doesn't mean you cut the cost in half. It means you cut the profit portion in half. So for example, if something costs $10 to make, $2 to ship to stores, and they sell it for $20, their profit is $8. If you cut prices in half, they are now losing money. Now, if you cut retail down by $4 to $16, then you are still making money and reduce the cost to consumers. Its a very simplified answer, but its how basic financials and economics work.

[@myrar8708]

Exactly this. That whole justification in the first 2 minutes is a load of cr*p

[@DCAMM720]

A business wants to make more money vs. less money? Wtf

[@DoomFlavored]

The phrase “even in debt I still serve” comes to mind whenever someone tells me to “just buy official”

[@oec1002]

GW has a history of price hiking their models and still not paying their employees anywhere near what they could or realistically should be for their work, esp their artists. I will continue to support content creators and 3D print minis when I can, especially forge world models

[@chiselcheswick5673]

If everyone only used 3d print, then GW eventually ceases to exist. The only reason you are happy to print 3D is you know other suckers will keep buying legit GW and keep them in business. Calling GW out for huge prices but willingly stealing IP makes you no better. If you dont like GW prices quit buying and quit GW.

[@grendelprime166]

Welcome to our world. Burger flippers don't make anything near the money they should that corporate does at McDonalds.

[@ysbrann3059]

@@chiselcheswick5673 3D printign is good for smal scale production. Its horrible for the scale that GW has to deal with

[@aidan1R]

@@chiselcheswick5673 stealing GWs ip? You mean the IP thats stolen from - Lotr, Dnd, star wars, starship troopers, Dune, amongst others? Recasting is morally right. Buying recast is morally right. Thats why I do it

[@Trinioutsider34]

@@aidan1R, There's a difference in inspiration and stealing. Warhammer has been inspired by those IP's,just like those IP's are also inspired by other stories. Nothing was stolen from those IP's. Don't know where people like get the idea that being inspired by something is stealing.

[@AllThingsCubey]

"The overheads GW has." You do realise GW has a 36% profit margin, after all overheads, rent, power, wages, advertising, etc? That's insane. Most large companies have something in the range of 2-5% profit margins. GW effectively has no excuse for their costs. Yes, they have large overheads, but they set their prices so much higher than any reasonable justification you can provide. No mater how much their operation costs them, the numbers don't lie. They could slash prices 25% on everything they sell and would still be raking in a hefty profit each year. This is fact, backed up my many former GW employees who have seen their figures. Their costs are high because they decided whales would still be willing to pay them. Recasts are cheaper because you're paying closer to what it actually costs to produce the product, not because of sweatshop working conditions.

[@AllThingsCubey]

@@Stevie-J It's not entitlement. Some people are being priced out of their own hobby because of GW greed to maintain insane profit margins. You say entitlement. I say classism, or do you not want to admit what you really mean is "poor people need not apply to the hobby."

[@defeatedhusband1593]

If they slashed 25% off all prices, more current players would buy more models to complete their army/armies and new/interested players are more willing to start and buy even more whether they continue the hobby or not. In the end GW would likely make even more money after cutting prices than keeping them at the current price or higher.

[@XfoxstarX]

@@Stevie-J calm down, GW wont bang you. well, considering their prices... maybe XDDDDDDDD

[@michielroskam3877]

@@Stevie-J the hobby is gonna die becuz of gw greed.....come back after 10 years, read this message again and think: hmpph they mightve been right all along

[@MiniatureMasterClass]

Someone doesn't understand capitalism.

[@JonNuclear]

I think something very important to remember that wasn't mentioned here is that Games Workshop has a habit of making limited release models or just discontinuing popular products which are now impossible to acquire directly from them. This leaves you with either buying resale, which can be much more expensive than even the legitimate original model and is also limited in quantity while also not helping GW and their employees at all, or you buy recast/3D print. Recasts are a great way to preserve history and make older models available long after GW stops supporting them without having to buy your own 3D printer and still not coming out with the same level of detail.

[@hurnn1543]

Your recast and Forge World experience are the literal opposite of everyone I know who has done both.

[@hope121107]

Are you insane thanking that the prices of Forge World is reasonable? Do you really think that the rest of the world believes that games workshops customer service is good? How many times have we all bought models from Forge World that has had warped parts?

[@cromcraft3494]

1:45 Nah mate. 36% profit margins. Their costs aren't that big

[@justarandomname420]

Their costs aren't that much, but those executives have boat paymemts to make. Show a little sympathy for the rich and disconnected, would ya?

[@meiswaffle101]

The big issue I have with his reasoning is he lists stuff like packaging and storage. When a ton of models just sit in shelves in an LGS and you can’t open a single large shipment from GW without stuff being crushed or crinkled. GW doesn’t pay for that storage and they certainly don’t pay for quality or reasonable packaging. Their product pricing simply excludes certain customers and part of me feels like it might be intentional. “Look you’re part of the people who can afford to play our games. Isn’t that awesome?” And recent business practices don’t steer me away from that answer either.

[@cromcraft3494]

@@justarandomname420 nope never 😂

[@cromcraft3494]

@@meiswaffle101 England is a has a very classist heritage, originating from the Norman racism towards the Saxons. While the race aspect is forgotten, do to race mixing, the culture of lower class vs middle class is still a thing. I'm quite certain that it has informed gws behavior over the decades. And humans are of course susceptible to hubris, so its no surprise that it has infected even American players. Pretty cringe people taking pride in being scamed. 😂

[@elsenorloco84]

I like the 3d printed ones because in my opinion commiting a crime while also playing chaos or non imperuim forces seems like an extra bit of role play

[@unestegosaurio8002]

Well, 3d print a original model is not a crime, only if you 3d print a scam of a GW miniature (sorry for the bad english)

[@01-gato]

lmao u got a point doe

[@proposterous2808]

You tried really hard to rationalize GW's pricing, specially regarding FW, but in the end, it's objectively overpriced. any other plastic product in the same market (ie: model kits and minis) shows that. It cannot be justified. The only reason is their insane greed and want for massive profit margins. nothing else

[@richardmoskalyov8503]

Yeah, that's what make him a sheep

[@RubberBeak]

Yeah and I don't like how this guy gets as rude if not more then the comments telling some guy to "get out of his mums basement and touch grass" is a pretty garbage thing to say

[@Gumlass1]

You've clearly not had the average Australian Forge World Experience. They take MONTHS to arrive in the first place, are very often faulty, and take MONTHS to have parts replaced. As for the legal arguments presented, we have a "significantly transformative" clause in our copyright laws. My interpretation is the 3d print is fine, but the recast is not. And if I'm wrong, then applying the same test means GW are likely infringing on the original IPs that "inspired" many of their designs in the first place. ... what happened to the "I'll be back" rule Necrons had in the 90s ?

[@biscutcrumbs6529]

I'll go back to buying Forgeworld when they redact the 30% overnight price increase for regions outside the UK. There is no justification for their pricing on that, and even so in the UK they still make a killing profit margin on FW products. Overheads do not justify this. And with the garbage rules they are pushing for HH 2.0 I'll just stick to my recaster.

[@moreplease998]

I'd buy forgeworld if they dropped their prices by over 50%.

[@yourfriendlyneighborhoodla2091]

@@moreplease998 same

[@milancora4637]

Where do you get your recasts it's for a friend

[@TexanJD]

Indeed. Not to mention the "internal conversion rate" GW overall uses. When 8th Ed came out if I'd been allowed to buy the FW indices in GBP(£) rather than USD($) it would have literally saved me OVER $10 PER PDF/ebook. At the time the £ and $ were not nearly far enough apart to justify that kind of difference. When I asked GW about it they literally explained to me "oh we have an internal conversion rate we use for calculating what people with other currencies should pay, we don't care about currency conversion rates". And the US isn't even the worst for this. Ask New Zealand and Australia.

[@K2SMOH42]

I'd buy ForgeWorld (again) if they actually had any semblance of quality control along with better pricing. Picked up some Krieg to round out my kill team and got models that broke when I clipped them from the sprue and models with gaping holes at thinner parts.

[@chromeghoul3022]

Nah, the prices are not justified. Look at other companies that sell comparable miniatures.

[@fateweaver9844]

Only other minis I've seen even close are Raging Heroes and Creature Caster and they are on par with GW price wise but are also resin which is way more of a pain to work with

[@mrorange8576]

@@fateweaver9844 Wargames Atlantic guard proxies are not just on par but better than what GW offers for a fraction of the price. it cost me less to buy 120 of their death fields raumjagers than it does to buy 30 cadians...

[@x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x]

GW is just Apple of miniatures. Apple is overpriced too for no good reason. You should just deal with it, poor thief.

[@craigjones7343]

Are their comparable companies with comparable number is staff, store locations, warehouses, exhibition hall, etc? It’s not the product quality that is the only factor in price. There is no company comparable to GW. Ignoring these factors is just stupid.

[@bloodbarage]

Idiots don’t use eBay. I got a deredeo dread with plasma and rocket pods for $80. You’re just bad with money if you think GW is too expensive.

[@magmat0585]

i'm more a lore guy than a model collector (don't have the space or the artistic capability for the figurines), but from what i'm hearing, the recasters and 3D printers are just capitalism in action. GW is offering a good at a price that the market views as too much, and so alternatives are looked at. You can argue about IPs and ethics, but if GW wants to curb or stop other people from printing out miniatures, they need to adjust their business plan accordingly.

[@calronkeltaran493]

in the end they can only fault themselfs, realy. first if you exclude marines, almost no other army got any love from GW for a very long time. many armies have models as old as the players themselfs. and dispite the age of those models, they are prized like they are the best stuff ever made. gotta love it when your most amazing elf lordes look like clunky dwarfs with oversized helmets and weapons while they cost the same as this badass SM captain, that get's an upgrade every year. it is just logical, that many players will eventually look elsewhere for nice looking models and tbh: once you have invested into a 3d printer, you never go back. you get high quality files for cheap or even free everywhere. GW doesn't even try to compete. they don't want to, in fact. their agressive IP marketing is like a last lash out from a diing tyranit monster after rolling a 6 for explosion instead of rolling a save.

[@magmat0585]

@@calronkeltaran493 i'm no lawyer, but i have a feeling they try to sue over some of these IP claims in the USA, they're gonna get BTFO'd by Fair Use if someone pushes back. The fact they'd be stupid enough to stop free publicity is amazing, it reminds me of when KZbin lets plays became a thing, you had game companies that realized "hey, its free marketing", and others who tried to stop it (sometimes because they had a bad game). Guess whose games tended to do better?

[@calronkeltaran493]

@@magmat0585 exactly. so many players came to warhammer because of Astrates or other fanmade projects and GW shut them down. this stuff never works for the long run but well... if GW shuts down, we will get a 40k 9th age and propably better rules support and updates. so the game itself is save

[@nathang4570]

Under rated comment. Every other take is idealism from what ever bias the commenter holds. At the end of the day people will pay what they are willing to pay and if cheaper alternatives become available GW will have to either adapt or fail. Such is the way of the world, every attempt at changing this simple fact of supply and demand has ended in catastrophic failure. GW is no more immune to the laws of economics than the late Soviet Uninion.

[@Slothamn]

Genuine games workshops propaganda. I live in the US you need to pay at least 116 pounds. That’s just for a few minis too. Of course I would buy off of third parties. I play imperial guard. I’m not paying hundreds just for like 40 minis. So I’m going to buy off of third parties that have actual cool minis. Third parties bring back minis that GW killed. I wanted ice warriors of valhalla. Third parties sell updated versions.

[@theemperorofmankind7706]

The moment you said the prices are justified, you lost me entirely, dude.

[@RubberBeak]

Yeah

[@Rohnon]

Let's get one thing straight, the GW prices are *not* justified. The Designers get little pay and the production of plastic models is cheap af. We're talking about cents/pennies. Plus anti consumer and anti employee policies lead me to the decision of not giving GW a single cent if it can be avoided

[@DCAMM720]

It's weird, I see this claim that plastic model production is "cheap" but I don't think most people realize it isn't THAT cheap. I work in a similar field and there is a fair bit of overhead, and it's SKYROCKETED in the last two years. (Not justifying pricing, just pointing out a fact)

[@truetheternal2314]

@@DCAMM720 and yet other model companies using the same material and methods are significantly cheaper even when dealing with larger models. Just go look at any hobby store.

[@ysbrann3059]

platic model as far from cheap , just the mold cost dozen of thousand to make. En even if so , giving your money to parasite like recaster is not justified

[@ysbrann3059]

@@truetheternal2314 so ? does that justify stealing ? we are not talking about essential goods here

[@truetheternal2314]

@@ysbrann3059 No I'm not say it is. I am just saying that they are over priced. Yes it cost money to make models and what but most is done with computers specialized equipment and the like that reduces the cost greatly. I work for a company that owns its models even though a 3rd party actually makes them and trust me if we can make a return a 2 cents a brush with expense then so can they. Also when I worked with pouring pewter we made our models by hand and that takes a lot more work and time. most likely they are designing their product on computer then 3d printing it then doing a reverse model and creating the model from that. Call it 2 days to make the model and a week to design and print all done by some under paid person most likely. I never promote pirated material but I do support 3d printing your own stuff if you want heavy customization and unique characters. If I want a squad of grunts I will just buy them sense it will take more effort and time to print a standard grunt then just buying it. But yeah prices are not reasonable for your average consumer.

[@gotenks5633]

1:51 False, nothing about GWs absurdly hyper premium pricing is justified, lets just nip that toxic thought process in the bud. Also, forgeworld models, by and large, are utter trash and are never reflective of the price you pay for them. Personally, Id feel a lot worse about buying from recasters if GW made any attempt whatsoever to respect and care for their customers, but I know that'll never happen.

[@douglochery8641]

I'm suprised that arguments about GW price gouging still rage. Anyone who thinks GW pricing is fair really do need to look at the history and learn the lessons. A reminder: When GW switched from lead to "white metal" we were told this would enable lower pricing as production costs on pewter were lower. Prices went up. When GW switched from pewter to mostly plastics, we were told it would bring the cost of the hobby down as plastic was cheaper to manufacture than metal. Single mini prises rose slightly. Boxed product stayed the same for a year.. ..then rose. When GW looked to move to finecast we were told comparable prices to metal but higher quality. Prices rose, quality fell. Now when I buy a single 32mm chatacter for my wife's D&D character it's in plastic and costs over £15 from GW. Similarly cool stuff from reaper, in metal, costs £6.50. WTF? I'm glad GW exist. I love their designs and the passion of the community around them but seriously, if you think GW is fair in it's pricing, Apple would like a word with you as you are likely their kind of mark. Support GW and your local hobby shops by all means. Just know that there's a reason most hobby stores sell gw product cheaper than gw themselves.

[@Keseleth]

There has been a lot of comments about GW pricing model below, but I would just like to add one thing. You are not wrong about GW having overhead costs that recasters or 3d artists don't, as well as the fact that workers are likely treated better by a company in UK than China given the labour laws, however one could also point to the scale effect that means GW has likely lower production costs, because they can negotiate lower material prices as a bigger client than most, have higher volume of production that allows to cut some costs etc.. It is also worth pointing out, that company which has similar mode of operation, so overhead costs as well, but on a smaller scale, while having their hq and manufacturing in the very same city as GW - Mantic Games - is still capable of offering their products at lower prices than GW.

[@OldManRogers]

The material cost is almost negligible.

[@dave-macleod]

Yeah material cost is barely anything, buying resin for a 3d printer at retail costs pennies per model, can't really get much cheaper than that no matter what your volume is. Where recasters save money is in low overheads, tiny wage rates in comparison, and zero design costs.

[@Keseleth]

You still need stuff like cardboard for boxing or other supplies, plus comparison to recasters on your part conveniently avoids my point of other smaller companies, but operating according to similar model, still being able to offer lower prices than GW. You can also check other comments here for points on GW's profit margins (that are pretty high already AFTER taking account of those overhead costs you believe to be a sufficient excuse).

[@dave-macleod]

@@Keseleth I didn't say GW's prices were good, I was just pointing out your comment on the material costs was irrelevant because the cost of materials is irrelevant. If GW was getting their cardboard for free it doesn't materially change the price of a box of miniatures compared to someone else paying 20p for it. I don't have to respond to your whole comment because I don't care about the rest of it, I chose to respond to the bit that was wrong, sorry if I hurt your feelings

[@TybJim]

There is no such thing as illegal Warhammer. People can 3D print whatever they want for themselves, their family and friends. It's when they start selling them on that it becomes an issue but even then provided its not marketed as Warhammer its perfectly fine.

[@jameshutton3960]

Disagree on the replacement policies I had a sicarian with a very bad mold slip on the back. I was able to provide examples of other sicarians I own and basically got told FW is for experienced hobbiests. It may be but it should also not be poor quality.

[@michaeljames1334]

interesting how all the reports about GW having horrible working conditions were not mentioned.

[@BenjisHobbies]

You mean the rants by disgruntled ex employees? 👍🏼

[@melonboi927]

@@BenjisHobbies oh yeah 100% just dismiss them because they are ex-employees

[@BenjisHobbies]

@@melonboi927 you missed out the ‘disgruntled’ part.

[@nerdhop1584]

It might not be the best job but it's better than China

[@deltharramorghal8130]

"Illegal plastic figure" Yeah. That makes sense.

[@oceanpete36]

if they where 'perceived' high prices..no one would be getting 3d printers or re-casts..just saying.. and no, they are not justified high prices, its outright greed.

[@robertotomasini2072]

I play many systems (bolt action, infinity, 40k, full thrust...) and I think you should separate rules from miniatures. Unless you play in official tournaments, any model is equal. I have a Tau army with no GW miniatures. Fire warriors are C3 infantry from warlord games; stealth are iron guard from Dust Tactics; tanks are 3d printed hovertank from Battletech; riptide is a converted Gundam Tieren model. No IP infringement, models are all legal (no copies or recasts), great and unique army, and far cheaper than from GW itself. And supports businesses and the hobby ... Just not GW. I openly hate their business practices, from the intentional power creep to the cease and desist policy for content creators

[@douglochery8641]

Holy cow. I thought full thrust had died a death. Happy to see another FT player.

[@eddieg82]

My thoughts exactly.

[@sirrathersplendid4825]

Couldn’t agree more - except that 40K is such a crap gaming experience I wouldn’t go anywhere near it even with independently manufactured armies. There are so many better games out there.

[@robertotomasini2072]

@@sirrathersplendid4825 Often the choice is between 40k game or no game at all... Other systems are better, just not as played.

[@sirrathersplendid4825]

@@robertotomasini2072 - Personally I would not play 40k, except purely as a social exercise.

[@handlinitificould]

I don't think GW marketing hasn't been doing a very stellar job given their treatment of the IP, the fan animations stance is a really hard thing to see, as this hobby had an undeniable, massive influx of members through things like TTS, Astartes, Death of Hope, SODAZ, etc. They deserve to lose money for it. Not just through recasting, but through the 3d artists too.

[@discipleofdagon8195]

yet they whore out the IP to mobile game devs like nothing

[@OGXenos]

I think a big factor for price hate a lot of British people forget about is that GW adds a massive markup in price in other regions that are not even remotely equivalent to the exchange rate. As an example, Demon Primarchs in the UK costs 100 pounds. A lot, but it's a Demon Primarch. These are some of the highest quality models they sell. You go the United States, and they cost $170. The actual exchange rate from pounds to USD would be $127. They're $43 more expensive for no valid reason. It's even more egregious because other regions are LESS prioritized for refills than the UK is. Chaos Knight War Dogs have been out of stock for NEARLY A FULL YEAR in the United States, both online and LGS level, whereas the UK gets a refill of them every few months. We're getting charged EVEN MORE for a hobby that is already expensive and a service that is objectively inferior to the homeland. The USA doesn't even have it the worst either. Australians pay $279 for Demon Primarchs, when the exchange rate should be only at $191. They are being charged nearly ONE HUNDRED DOLLARS more than the actual MSRP for UK prices. That's completely inexcusable, especially when Australians already get massively price gouged by their own cost of living. In fact, pretty much EVERY non-UK region pays a premium for the crime of not being British. It's these disgustingly blatant attempts at exploiting larger markets than the UK itself that makes people so angry about GW's pricing, and the reason a lot of us are more than happy to buy stuff dirt cheap off Ebay or buy recasts. Because even buying a legitimate brand new 40k model off Ebay from a guy in the UK costs less than buying from GW themselves. Even then, a lot of European Ebay sellers are aware of our constant supply shortages and gladly markup kits for +200%. You'd be lucky to find War Dogs on Ebay under $140. War Dogs are a $90 model that should only be $70.

[@BenjisHobbies]

But it’s not purely exchange rate though - there’s way more that goes in to it than just that and to just look at the exchange rate does not paint the full picture. Duties, taxes, transport, storage… all of this adds to the end cost and is of course passed on to the consumer.

[@JediMunchies]

Having built a few Telemons myself, the placement of those shoulder pauldrons will forever haunt my dreams.

[@BenjisHobbies]

Good thing they’re not glued on yet 😉

[@MrRaashby]

Thank satan because that was almost awkward lol

[@captainweekend5276]

I think the human rights argument against recasts is flawed and something you present with about zero evidence to back up for such a bold statement. The truth is many recasters are actually very small operations, it's less one massive factory with hundreds of underpaid employees than it is probably about 5-10 guys operating out of a warehouse and making reasonably good money. Whilst GW have the overheads from the development and marketing of their miniatures, it's well known that their costs are much higher than they should be and they're not operating close to the line whatsoever. Recasts are basically the miniature hobby's equivalent of video game piracy/illegal keyselling, and to me the solution is the same, just provide a better service and a reasonable price and you'll take them out the market. The core issue is that a lot of the time the legit FW product isn't significantly better than the recasts (considering I likely know which recaster you bought your miniature from, they're renowned for having an iffy quality at best, as are most easy to find recasters, better ones tend to be cheaper but restricted to closed groups) and whilst the service of GW sending replacement bits if anything is casted wrong, even that can be questionable at best. I've heard cases of people being sent 3-4 of the same bits before finally getting one that is casted correctly. I think the core issue though is GW miniatures only ever get more expensive (a few outliers like blood knights being a significant exception). For instance with video games, older video games are sold for significantly cheaper than new releases, even on platforms that remain consistent like PC. In fact in almost every hobby, something that is older and still in production is almost always sold as significantly cheaper than a new release, however GW keeps the cost of all of their model kits artificially high, especially with forge world. To me it is completely understandable as to why someone wouldn't want to spend the same amount of money on a miniature made over a decade ago compared to one released this year. The majority of kits that are recasted are ones that have been around for years and simply remain overcosted, if GW addressed this by lowering the cost of kits that had already paid for their cost of production and beyond to a reasonable level, the market for recasts would shrink dramatically overnight.

[@meiswaffle101]

I never thought about the video game example, very well thought out comment

[@RedsGoneGrey]

Very well thought out and reasonable comment. Have nevery thought of, or heard the comparison between older video games, and decreases to pricing on older kits. I agree with this sentiment very much. You want to be careful with radical ideas like these though, however well expressed, you'll be tarred, feathered and run out of the hobby in no time.

[@lv100Alice]

just 3d print it instead of doing recasting then you zero suit samosa

[@captainweekend5276]

@@RedsGoneGrey Honestly I'm not really worried, I feel like recasting is actually a lot more common than people think it is, and anyone who would have a serious problem with me buying recasts isn't someone I'd want to associate with anyway.

[@mikemclaughlin3306]

Lol... all those human rights violations in the recasting "factories"...... while using a China bought 3d printer..... if that doesn't say GW simp, I don't know what does

[@Zoroak798]

No excuse for gw prices, I work in a plastic factory and most of the plastic smelled is 80 cens a pound.

[@claybrowning2700]

GW's pricing is absolutely ludicrous. They make so much profit off their minis, they could cut all prices in half and still make profit

[@pressngo]

People forget that GW had a factory in China. When they shut them down, the factory sold the parts to the casting. This was way before 3d printing and it one of the reason why you will find very good recast when order there. They are not prefect but I seen many recast from other players who order from Russia or 3d print. None of them match up to the China recast. Its very very hard to see the different in the Forge World models. ( That because Forgeworld model are not prefect and do require handy work to make them prefect).

[@MMc-mp5sj]

I like how you talk about poor working conditions in China as you 3D print using a Chinese printer. Good one.

[@BenjisHobbies]

You tried buying a British made 3D printer lately?

[@nerdhop1584]

@@BenjisHobbies lol It's impossible not to buy from China but if you have a choice you probably shouldn't

[@BenjisHobbies]

@@nerdhop1584 that’s exactly what I’m saying 👍🏼

[@nerdhop1584]

@@BenjisHobbies Ya 🤜

[@nerdhop1584]

@@BenjisHobbies Honestly that's a reason why I like to buy from GW. There's not a lot of large companies the manufacturer most of their products outside of china

[@AlphaShepherd]

The way I see it… GW’s issue for pricing extends to what they’re investing in and complete disregard to their primary demographic. They keep making things none of us can buy or want to buy… i finally caved for a Warhammer plus subscription and was thoroughly disappointed… thankfully it was cheap and I wasn’t too far out of pocket money. But to keep that streaming service alive there is no way the subscription fees are keeping it afloat and I feel like that’s where a good chunk of overpricing comes from… that and many more decisions create this overpriced product… I beg the question… how does digital casting become more expensive than sculpture fees??? Handmade sculpts and animation are one of the largest expenses… it’s why Disney went full Pixar. So how on earth does digital sculpting not lower the prices😅

[@bass_not_bombs]

-Says prices are jusitifed - Next recommened video is of a 1400$ piece of plastic being put together This maybe could have been justified before the wide spread availibilty of of 3D printers, otherwise this is just pure greed. I can promise you the "materials" they have to source doesn't consist of some magical 1000$+ plastics, they just know people love Warhammer and some will pay.

[@longle88]

lol , he forgot to mention that other UK mini companies also have the same overhead without the scale of economy a big company GW has, yet their prices are are consumer friendly. "significant overhead" and "wages" are crap, especially since we found out that GW are underpaying their employees. Do your research before believing KZbin shills.

[@RubberBeak]

Yeah agreed. I really Don't like how fragile this guy is, he gets so dismissive and worked up over conter arguments and others disagreeing with him if you read the replies. Even if we were wrong he needs thiker skin 😂

[@TyroneisWhite]

this video didnt age well, BABY WE BE PRINTING!!

[@PhynixDS]

Talking about IP theft, Maybe GW shouldn't have copy pasted most of their lore from the Dune novel series, or ripped off other IP's to craft their universe, just saying. God Emperor, Navigators, Warp Travel, Las weapons, just a few examples lifted from Dune an older IP than GW's WH40k universe 🤣

[@BenjisHobbies]

People keep using this as an example of IP theft - it’s not. You can be inspired by works, provided your own is different. You could ask two painters to paint the same picture, but both would be drastically different.

[@Dietsteve]

@@BenjisHobbies Actually, a whole lot of 40K is stripped right from other works. Power armor for example, the idea of a man-sized suit of indestructible armor with an arsenal of a tank came from Starship Troopers; as mentioned above, basically the entirety of 40Ks space travel is ripped right from Dune. The original Tyranid models were based off the Alien movies. Yes, they've changed things over the years, but way back at the roots, it was straight IP theft

[@Trinioutsider34]

@@Dietsteve If that's the case then Dune is just Lawrence of Arabia in space. I bet you didn't know Dune was inspired by that story.

[@mg03nma]

Huge price copes being thrown out. They're extremely overpriced, let's not even pretend there's any reason besides greed. I'm a tool and die maker, sure the dies are expensive. But with the amount they sell that cost is barely noticable. Their stuff is that expensive because they can get away with it being overpriced.

[@memnarch129]

Friend works in a factory that uses plastic and if remembering correctly a about 1 ton box of plastic pellets was, this was couple years ago, like 5-10 USD. meaning the number of boxes GW gets out of a single box of plastic, likely even cheaper as they order so much of it, that each box is less than to maybe 5 or 10 dollars to make. Then turning around and selling those for 60-170 USD. At MINIMUM thats a 6x return and at most your talking about over a 100x return. Yes boxing/shipping/storage/etc but that isnt going to multiply the cost 100s of times.

[@BiggusFroggus]

Plus the argument that GW staff has good working conditions is also not very true. Midwinter Minis has a video titles "Dear Games Workshop" where he discusses that the staff is underpaid

[@markhickson1066]

GW can charge whatever they want, it is their IP. Take Ferrari, Rolex etc for example. It is for them to choose their business model. They do not have to make it affordable nor do they have to justify profits. Either you buy or you don't. Everyone is free to buy illegal recasts or make 3D models that steal IP. Just don't try and justify it to others as something other than what it is. Me I have a couple of recasts and a few 3d printed addons. I know they aren't legal but I'm honest with myself about them being a form of theft.

[@z_is_for_zombie7423]

@@markhickson1066 They can only get away with that because of their reputation. Since they’re such a well established company. Also, people like you who will make excuses for them no matter what.

[@RedsGoneGrey]

​@@markhickson1066 Except GW lifted all the ideas in their IP from other SciFi IP's back in the day. 90% of their universe is just DUNE run through the find and replace in Word a few times, the other 10% is everything from 2000AD to Aliens. Pretty hard to defend GW from and IP standpoint IMO.

[@dragnridr05]

GW can stop trying to extort their customers and drop their prices by over half and that alone would bring people back to them. D&D can sell figures for $5 or less per figure, which has similar or more detail than GW figures. Taking that into account, I'd rather pay just a few Ork teeth for an stl file of a model that is very similar to the official one, and print it out than have it painted, ready to play than spend 3x the amount on just a few figures and not even have a squad ready to play. GW needs to step their game up.

[@docvaliant721]

Moral and ethical? The whole IP laws is a new invention by England. It’s a controlling mechanism. That’s it. It’s not a moral law. That’s naive. You go live in New Zealand and then tell me the cost is okay. I’m in Texas and I won’t give GW a cent. I can still get all models and books through other avenues. Freedom of choice. I’ll run my finances like a business would. GW has zero respect for any others IP and if they can get plastic cheaper they will go that route to save money like I would. They use slave labor in China. Moral grounds is just ridicules. You gotta be 5 to think morality and legality is the same thing.

[@the5thcourier833]

Look man, I’m not paying 55 dollars for some Chaos marines to have for bits in my kitbashing. Fuck GW their prices are not justified

[@drnobody1908]

I'm going to tell you this right now never trust someone doing a model review if their sponsored by the company they're supposedly reviewing other products too. That's like trusting a bank when it comes to loans all because of the clerk recommends it.

[@BenjisHobbies]

GW don’t give me anything, nice try. A swing and a miss there bud!

[@outburst1245]

Many fans are growing frustrated with Games Workshop's sky-high prices for their models. Still, some people, including various KZbinrs and commentators, defend these costs by pointing out the company's expenses, like production, staff wages, and taxes. However, for the everyday buyer, these reasons don't make a strong case. Customers expect reasonable prices, top-quality products, and quick delivery. They're not interested in the behind-the-scenes financial obligations a company faces. What's more troubling is that other smaller companies are outperforming Games Workshop. They're creating similar or even superior models at a fraction of the price and time. This situation leads many to question Games Workshop's practices. If smaller companies can charge less for equal or better products, why can't Games Workshop, with all its industry dominance, do the same? Consumers are practical. They don't see why they should sympathize with a company's internal costs when they're getting hit with steep prices. They want value for their money, and if Games Workshop can't provide that, customers will, and are, exploring alternatives. The problem runs deeper with the hobby community feeling forced to find other solutions, like 3D printing their models. They're driven to this not only because of costs but also to continue enjoying their hobby without the strain on their wallets. The community's shift is a clear signal - they're not just looking for cheaper options; they're searching for fairness and reasonability in pricing, which they feel Games Workshop isn't offering. Additionally, passionate hobbyists and independent creators are stepping up. They're designing and producing models that fans have wanted for ages, directly responding to community feedback. They're nimble, innovative, and most importantly, they listen - something Games Workshop seems to struggle with amidst their traditional, slower ways. Games Workshop's defenders need to see this bigger picture. It's not just about internal costs and company burdens. It's about fair pricing, innovation, and keeping the hobby accessible. Instead of justifying Games Workshop's high prices and practices, these defenders should encourage the company to listen to its fanbase, rethink its approach, and adjust its prices. Recognizing this could lead to a healthier community and, in the long run, benefit Games Workshop itself. It's time for the company and its proponents to stop masking the issues with talk of expenses and to start addressing the real concerns of the community. _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ I'm sorry for writing an essay. It annoys me when creators make excuses for awful practices by companies.

[@Hinokassaudifan1]

Warhammer summed up in 2 sentences: "Great universe" "shit company"

[@SuperDanielHUN]

Just FYI in plastic casting labour and material costs in manufacturing are almost negligible. With proper tooling you can make dozens/hundreds of figures per hour per operator. For raw materisls, a figure that size is a couple cents. GW easily takes a 50% profit margin if not more, even with UK manifacture.

[@tonyennis1787]

8:42 it's about the artist and the files. The printers are insanely good and are only improving.

[@wiresculptor5951]

as someone who owns no warhammer miniatures. the price point makes it so i will never buy any of there products for painting. i can buy model kits of various fantasy and sci fi aliens/monsters that has been out of print since the 90s for half the price of any tyranid price. the price is not justifed at all $100 for tyranid swarmlord etc. when its sooooo small

[@Itchyknee88]

GW apologists are so predictable in their excuses for GW’s crazy pricing model/scale. 🤡

[@ErgonomicChair]

Yeah as someone who works with UK programmers and Indian... no, the UK is not that much more expensive. I buy from Urkainian recasters myself.

[@johannisson77]

This video did not feel honest. Games workshop has a operating profit margin of 43%... Compare that to Alphabet Inc owner of google, they have a great business success and is extremely wealthy as a company and "only" have 33.7% profit margin. So GW is asking us for way to much money, they are gate keeping young players to be able to afford the game. Don't get me wrong, I love to play GW games, but they are way to greedy for there own good. So if I can skip paying fore forgworld, or to buy a whole other box of devestators to get one more plasma gun I will print or recast.

[@dxd8603]

Exactly this, and you can see Benji’s Hobbies only likes comments supporting GW. So kind of suspicious.

[@johannisson77]

@@dxd8603 Exactly, and to put the whole matter in to even larger perspective so a big Oil company like Chevron has 12% profit margin and Walmart has 2% So GW with its 43% is like top in the world with making pure profit. And that is the markup we players have to pay.

[@squirrel6687]

Speaking on IP theft. Games Workshop has stolen under the guise of inspiration and received copyright on said theft. They then protect themselves vehemently against the same practices. Hmmmm. I'm glad I just like listening to interpretations of the lore.

[@shadowsift]

Price isn't justified. Look at their profit margins to see.

[@craigjones7343]

Your right. It should be illegal for a company to make a profit.

[@craigjones7343]

@@moreplease998 lol. You posted some of the funniest content I have read today. Thanks for the chuckle.

[@shadowsift]

@@craigjones7343 excessive profit margin means the cost/profit ratio works well for them. It means we have every right to get annoyed when they jack them higher. Why is this hard for you to understand?

[@craigjones7343]

@@shadowsift you don’t have to buy anything that they make. How hard is that for you to understand? Unless you’re going to stop buying their product your bitching on the internet is just a useless temper tantrum.

[@Comicsluvr]

I'm anti-GW for a number of reasons: 1) They like to change the core rules for no reason which means I have to buy a hardcover rulebook every 5 years or so. 2) After changing the rules (which often invalidate armies from previous iterations of the game), GW has to release new army books. They often take YEARS to do this and whoever winds up at the end of the list is forced to try and compete against newer, often more powerful armies. 3) Just like the rules and army books, GW will frequently change armies which often renders models obsolete. So, they want me to buy the rules, buy the army book (IF it's even out yet), buy the models, build and paint them (which TBH is the only thing that kept me in the hobby), only to have to retire them within a few years at most? Screw that. GW has decided to milk the few players and collectors who have money for expensive hobbies and tossed the casual hobbyists to the side.

[@grignr3831]

3D modelling is getting more popular and far easier. GW will die if they don't adapt. They wont win when there is a cheaper alternative that gives the same or better customer experience. At the moment they are charging a massive amount for what is essentially bits of plastic you assemble yourself. For the price of a few minis I can buy a 3D printer and building materials. the only thing I cant do with them is play in official tournaments. If you are printing them. you can choose the quality/detail you want. Now for the other major plus for 3D printing. I can use it for a lot more that just minis.

[@Trinioutsider34]

GW ain’t going no where. People have been saying this for years now.

[@luketfer]

@@Trinioutsider34 However for years we've also not seen a major uptake in 3D printing, especially 3D printing with quality that can match GW stuff. With the 4K and 8K 3D printers your getting JUST as good quality sculpts are you are from GW because, I'll let you in on a little secret, they 3D print the prototypes using those exact same 3D printers people are using at home THEN they send them off to have moulds made (most of the modern models are nolonger hand sculpted either, they all sculpted in 3D programs and then 3D printed). All you're doing is cutting out the middle man of requiring moulds for injection plastic mass production if you're doing it at home because, well, you don't need to have that level of production from home.

[@Trinioutsider34]

@@luketfer I don't think you get what I am talking about. I could care less about 3D printing. What I am talking about is people recasting GW's work and re-selling it. Once again this argument I see in the Gunpla community. People think IP theft is a way of sticking it to companies like GW

[@piotrjeske4599]

We have been recasting since the 90s. There is entire industris build around it. There are guys who have 20 printers running non stop printing kasarkin, Votan exo armour, the new tau suit cmd etc.

[@anew742]

For me personally, I only use recasts for out of production models & Forge World stuff - in other words, products where my money won't go to my local game store anyway! The recast Forge World models I have are higher quality than the originals at 1/3 of the price, meaning I have money left over to support local stores instead :)

[@St0rmrider73]

This video should be retitled “Here’s an add for GW.” If I can print or buy a low cost model then I will direct copy or not and not lose a wink of sleep over it. People shouldn’t be prevented from playing a game they love because they can’t afford the models.

[@bobedwards7592]

Finally found a comment I fully support, I've seen propaganda before and this piece is one for GW

[@AmorphisBob]

As long as GW keeps charging a 4,000% markup on cheap pieces of plastic, I'm gunna make my own.

[@dandyx12]

Food for thought indeed, still not convinced that recasts or 3d have more than a minimal impact on GW's cashflow, as their last money wobble was over a decade ago and that was purely down to their own greed and lack of innovation. 3d is still very much in the niche at the moment but if it becomes plug and play i-printer that'll be time for GW to worry.

[@fateweaver9844]

Finally someone with sense.

[@Deus888]

Currently 3D printind is a hobby on its own. You need to do a proper research and testing before printing quality miniatures.

[@NightfireGamingYT]

Id guess you’re right. As much as it gets talked about I don’t personally know any Warhammer players that 3D print. And I only know one person who bought a Russian recast but only 1 model.

[@dandyx12]

@@NightfireGamingYT I've got 3 or 4 folks with printers in my local nerd herd of about a dozen, mostly its just bits rather than whole armies although one chap does have a Custodes 3d army but that's only 20 odd models, its usually extra guns or armour bits for 40k and appropriate terrain for other games

[@JamesEarlCash]

Resin printers are more and more user friendly. There are already first models that print normally, not upside down and don't need that many supports.

[@ScottAT]

The amount you guys pay for your game pieces is robbery. A guy was showing his 30 centimeter tall robot looking model he bought from games workshop and it was more expensive than buying a real authentic Colt .45 caliber pistol.

[@BenjisHobbies]

Tell me you’re American without telling me you’re American 🇺🇸 🦅

[@thomasmeglasson228]

I'm sorry, when you compare the models that come out of Forgeworld and compare them with things like products from Bandai, the prices just are not any kind of justified.

[@Slabri]

anyone who hates on 3d printed stuff isn't worth playing with. the vast amount of players in the community don't care and the rule of cool trumps all else!

[@richardduska1558]

I dunno about it. I personaly printed a Contemptor last week and while I haven't finished painting it it can easily stand next to the GW one and nobody would bet an eye. It always comes town to the files themselves. The one that you printed semed a bit badly scaled. A little bit of editing in Blender can fix all of those issues.

[@adrianoleotta3889]

The way he gobbles gw's balls is crazy, trying to defend that company is a sign of madness

[@BenjisHobbies]

@@adrianoleotta3889 thanks for engaging and getting me more views 😘😘😘

[@adrianoleotta3889]

@@BenjisHobbies don't worry about that, I love your channel and want you to succeed, all the painting videos are great

[@BenjisHobbies]

@@adrianoleotta3889 aww thanks. GW balls taste good btw 😂

[@adrianoleotta3889]

@@BenjisHobbies lmaoooo

[@03dashk64]

“Just got back from an event at Warhammer World” No matter what the content of the video, the outcome was decided in that statement right there! In all seriousness though: I don’t support IP theft nor recasting models (unless they are no longer sold anywhere) I do not support blatant IP theft in 3D printing. But “models inspired by” are absolutely fine and expand the hobby. I do not support GW’s pricing model when, despite their overhead, they still have record breaking profits. I fully support smaller game producers that are more consumer friendly and that are pushing the hobby in interesting ways. Making more interesting games and model kits that are both more affordable and more interesting (in my opinion)

[@sidraket]

They have a popular setting and profit from books and video games and other licensing. They could sell miniatures at cost purely to support the the ecosystem they made and still profit, and could probably profit more from it in the long run by spreading interest and snagging people who have a casual interaction with 40k in deeper by engaging them with an additional way to experience the setting. Of course its a public company so its probably not going to make good long term decisions.

[@Game-Boy.]

Hi Benji, Can you please present the facts of your allegation that the recasts are made in sweatshops in China. Please don’t present your opinions as facts. Why are you involving politics in the first place? Is it in order to make everyone else look bad? The recasts from all over the world for the models that are no longer in production by GW are the similar quality to GW but they are a fraction of the price not because of the production cost but due to GW profits. Please stop sucking up to GW it’s pathetic.

[@Dangerpurple]

I've not bought warhammer in 10 years, and I started collecting in 98. I've thought many time about reentering the hobby, but GW's constant price hiking and artificial scarcity has priced me out of it. Considering buying a kit of "knock off" 40k stuff for 50 bucks from etsy though. It's like, a whole army, not 1:1 copies mind you but generic power suit space soldiers, for a fourth of the price of GW for the same amount of models.

[@ZTRAIIN626]

If people had any ounce of an idea of how injection moulding works they would realise just how crazy expensive GW are compared to how much it costs to mould their miniatures, not to mention how cheap the bare material is they use.

[@JMcMillen]

It's not the casting that's expensive, it's those steel molds that they use that cost so much.

[@ZTRAIIN626]

@@JMcMillen In the context of it all the moulds cost fuck all.

[@blah-po9et]

My highschool had a 50 ton injection molding machine donated to it, an equivalent brand new machine costs about 50,000 USD, it took a highschool student 2 weeks to design from scratch a token to be used for good behavior and whatnot in the school store, from there it took a week to cnc the mold with no prior experience, we spent about a week trying to get the injection machine working till we called the place we got the machine from and they sent someone out and helped us get it running, all in all it took a highschool with NO prior experience a little over a month while only working an hour a day to get a product mass producing. The cost of the plastic is about $10 a pound which can produce about 1200 tokens and the cost of the mold in material is a few hundred dollars.

[@ZTRAIIN626]

@@blah-po9et it is very simple. Yes GW’s moulds would be a little more detailed etc. but the amount of product these machines can pump out now is ridiculous, and on skeleton crews. GW is a big company so they would have multiple spare machines and moulds so if their is a failure or breakdown they just switch over. Their moulding machines would be going day and night easily. The cost of their raw material would be extremely low also. In the hardhat moulding industry a hardhat is sold on average for like $10-$15 where I’m from. Material cost for that hardhat is 40 cents.

[@AngusBeef0]

GW needs to drop their single model prices across the board. Their bundles are about what you should get on average for the price.

[@Haanzer]

Ehhhhh.. This video feels a little disingenuous to me. I find it really interesting that you claim there is 'no grey area' and that recasting is 'morally wrong' and cite that it's taking money out of the pockets of the company designing and creating the game - but then are seemingly completely happy with 3D Printing as a viable alternative. I get that there's a difference between 'transformative' art (e.g. knock-off designs) and straight up replication (with recasts/direct copy 3D prints), but the end result is that you're getting a mini to paint that's based on GW's property - the lore, concept art and probably miniature designs themselves - and Games Workshop aren't getting any money out of it. Knock-offs aren't paying GW a license or anything. The criticisms of the recast model as well seemed a little forced. I've built and painted 100's of ForgeWorld miniatures in my time, and ForgeWorld aren't themselves immune to leaving big mould slips in very inconvenient areas or putting casting gates in less-than-ideal positions. Fair play on the cheaper, more brittle and cheaper feeling resin itself, but honestly that recast model you put together looked in better shape than a lot of kits I've received from FW proper. Finally, I thought it was a little weird that for your comparison, you didn't do three of the exact same model. Feels like you'd get a better comparison getting a recast of the genuine model you bought and 3D printing a direct copy rather than a 'homage' model. After all, if you're buying and showing a recast for the video, why not print a 3D print replica model as well? You touch on that, but rather than explore the inconvenient truths in this area you just kind of gloss past it. Just seems a bit less like narrative here is a little biased, and that 3D printing Warhammer 'alternatives' and recasting miniatures are a little more in a grey area than you suggest.

[@kilometersmetzker4516]

People who don't print figures don't mind paying thousands of dollars for toys, since their wives boyfriends are the ones actually paying for them.

[@nathanielmaghanoy6441]

Here are some rebuttals to pro Games Workshop apologetics. "If we don't buy their models the company will die." If it dies, it dies. JK. No, it won't die, it will sell. The portfolio of intellectual properties Games Workshop owns is worth hundreds of millions if not a few billions. If you owned a failing business that was still worth hundreds of millions would you throw up your hands and walk away or make hundreds of millions selling it? Some company that sees the full potential in the IP will snatch it up and shake things up. Also GW treats the customer like trash. They shut down fan animations that are free advertising for them and do not imperil their bottom line, they gouge you on prices, they won't update their models for literal decades(but they'll charge you ever rising prices for them) and they can't be bothered to invest in producing balanced rules for their own game then have the gall to charge you for their fuck ups. Why are you supporting this? "Their production costs are high, they have to charge a lot." This is most laughable. I work an industry which uses molds that endure temperatures over 2000 degrees hotter than even tough plastics, are ungodly expensive, and must be replaced more frequently. The case erector(s) and shrink wrappers they use to package are probably $150,000 - $300,000 including tooling. Their injection mold machines are most likely between $500,000 and $3,000,000 a piece and with proper maintenance will give 15 to 20 years of life. And yet this product is sold much cheaper than GW models. GW probably have a handful of artists in their employ, but most likely contract artists for pieces at much lower prices (and infrequently as they re-use art for decades). Also their artists and employees aren't being paid particularly well either. Amortize the cost of equipment and artists over years and take into account their scale of production and there is no way to justify paying $60 dollars for 3 Shining Spears that weigh 6 ounces of plastic, one of the cheapest materials on earth. No friends, you're paying the "Apple Tax" for a "premium product" which can be equaled and bested by the cheapest 3D printer and a $10/month Patreon subscription. 3D printing will upend the mini game market as the internet and MP3's did the music industry.

[@rowdybeaman1436]

I honestly would love to see GW sell the models they create as digital files for 3d printers, at a reduced cost from their normal mini's. They likely design their models using a digital software so it wouldnt cost them any extra because there is no extra production. Sure they'd run into issues with people selling their models after printing them but there are already laws in place for that kind of theft anyway. As a hobbiest 3d printer I would spend more money on the digital files from GW vs a Proxie model if they were the offical models.

[@blah-po9et]

Having ordered from GW and likely the same Chinese recaster as in the video, I can fully say I had a better customer support experience with the recaster than GW, I was missing a part out of one of the recast kits and I emailed the support, and overnight he emailed me back and had the part expedited and was there with a week vs GW who took 3 days to message me back and took over a month to get a Necron nightbringers torso replaced after I found a massive bubble square in the middle of its chest. And I do agree with the points about official GW, vs 3d printing vs recast but I don't have the time to 3d print an entire army, I don't support GW after the whole content creator fiasco, and the sheer cost of models from GW, like I don't have the money to buy an entire Warhammer army for $800 but from the recaster it was about $300.

[@just_me1232]

Do you remember the name of the recaster?? For educational purposes ofc

[@TheFGS]

Yes..I also need to be educated, if you could be so kind ;)

[@Deimos0]

more education needed here as well

[@parkerlindsay4606]

I would also very much appreciate the name purely for the purposes of avoiding said website of course.

[@Maesgae]

Everyone asking for the name: you won't get it unless someone doesn't care about having recaster availability. When names start getting dropped on threads and in comments is when they start taking down those recast sites, no one in their right mind would publicly post the name of a recast site.

[@techsupportnubrite4264]

Games Workshop should embrace this trend. Unlike the poor execution of Metallica against their own fan base, because of copyright. In this case Games Workshop should (EMBRACE IT - INCITE IT - LEAD IT) make their own 8K 3D printer, (PAY-HAMMER Printer) for their stores. Have a two tier hobby. "Base" army sets. Sold in boxes - starter packs and cost effective bundles. But then PAY-HAMMER the more exotic models, and customizations for their war leader and other special units. Pay-To-Win or Pay-To-Customize. The box set should come with a Internal scratch and win QR code for one complimentary PAY-HAMMER 3d print... like a WarLord or Heavy Support. Therefore all sold generic-pre-bundled-armies, get one highly customized model, to help distinguish that bundled army from other low cost bundled armies. This exposes the customer to the extremely nice experience of getting something special. In addition, the box for that custom PAY-HAMMER is also printed. Folded, assembled and all inserts / transfers / special terrain markers / options ... and other "goodies" are included in the box, along with the PAY-HAMMER custom.

[@greggonzalez661]

TBH, Forgeworld resin and packaging is crap. Every sword, spear and antenna is bent. IF you are lucky, no missing pieces, bubbles or miscasts. You pay more, and they have no quality assurance included in that price. Instead replacing stuff since those people make less?

[@ScorpionTechReviews]

Look, for me personally, it's not necessarily the prices that are the issue. Don't get me wrong, I'm firmly on the side saying the prices just can't be justified by production in the UK, R&D and all the current points. That being said, the newer models have become exceptionally hard to build, they are less detailed than the older ones, less customizable (which is a cardinal sin) and did I mention they are exceptionally hard to build? Aside from having mold lines in the most inaccessible of places, you have entire sections filled-in with plastic that take hours to carve and reshape - at the price point, this is completely and wholeheartedly unacceptable. Furthermore, the way the plastic minis are designed to be built is completely archaic and stubbornly refuses to use technology that GW ALREADY HAS AND USES!!! Why is everything designed to be glued together end to end instead of having push-fit for, for example, backpacks, arms and the legs mounted on the base? This would not only be easy for them to implement, it would incur no cost increase whatsoever and it would increase customer satisfaction immensely. Just think about being able to fully assemble the miniature before painting it and then being able to easily split it back again into several pieces to paint it with ease, then put it back together, even glue it back together if that's what you want. Doesn't that just sound massively better?

[@meepmop6]

What do you mean the 3d print is "not quite there..." that it's "more likely down to the files not being as detailed and refined as they could be" my brother in christ it's your opinion. Don't give us a "likely", just tell us you don't like the 3D print as much because the sculpt isn't as good. Also it's a bit much to assume the recasts come from a factory with bad working conditions. Recasters wouldn't have massive factories. You should check your biases.

[@Magick1an]

Dude... GW is gouging prices cuz they can. You can't defend that.

[@Chris-jl6vp]

At the moment, people have no choice but to recast or get third party variants if they want contemptor dreadnoughts. The plastic version is literally gone from the store without a trace and there are no arm options for them on forgeworld.

[@guillaumeargento4469]

you can alway buy preowned models, u can save on the cost at the same time =)

[@Chris-jl6vp]

@@guillaumeargento4469 Haven't had any luck finding fairly priced ones thus far, additionally I'm searching for volkite armed variants.

[@Conzor563]

According to my local GW man, its because they are redoing the plastic contemptor kit for the new Heresy line. Presumably they have run out of stock and are not reprinting because the new one is out soon

[@Normandy42]

Contemptor is off the FW and GW site because they’ve been very clearly saying for awhile it’ll be redone in plastic. And not the shitty one that came in the betrayal at Calth box. A redesigned, poseable plastic contemptor. I’m glad that they took off the old plastic contemptor because continuing to sell it on the cusp of a new released one would be awful.

[@Chris-jl6vp]

@@Conzor563 Yeah you and your LGW are right, a few others confirmed it for me too.

[@jkdragonjk6895]

I dont think I would ever buy recasts from China, if I am buying a model, its going to be from Gamesworkshop. But I think 3d printing is something I would think about doing, especially if I just want to try out an army and see how they feel in terms of gameplay and looks.

[@Ferretino]

I do agree that it's IP theft, but i don't really care. GW own ex employees and hired casters tell how much of a margin they get from raw material alone. Successfully casting island of blood ratogres for myself i can say that cost of one model was around a 50 cent. All other costs of "DESIGNING"(all ranges from 2000 and 1990s what still sell as completely new) and extra shipping kinda make GW prices even more laughable. Look at over companies. Compare their prices and GW. Perry brothers sell 39 prussian handgunners for 22 pounds. Or 12 armored horsed knights for SAME PRICE. GW sells 10 handgunners for 18 pounds. Or 5 Freeguild Pistoliers for 21 pounds. Quality of the sculpt is not that different, but somehow one company beliefs that their product deserves to be sold for super premium price. All that without even talking about heroes with price coming literally out of nowhere.

[@Ferretino]

P.S 50 cent of raw material without cost of the form itself. Form with all test of material before come to the ~5$ and was completely fine after 10 casts, only reason i stopped because nobody needs that much of same mono-pose models.

[@niftymoth723]

A castillus dread for 68 dollars?? Must have been in your closet for years!

[@JestaultSteinkeKachuik]

Technically Russian recasts are perfectly legal because they are a hostile company to Russia there IP's are not recognized and are perfectly legal to copy them in Russia (it's not ip theft because there is no gw IP in Russia). Also recast orders have taken from 3 days (faster than gw in my area) to a month so it is hit and miss for sure. Also recast vendors give the same replacement policy as gw. Some old FW stuff is literally worse than recast versions. You also didn't even touch on the primary reason to stay from recast... No one does because you won't discover the huge issue unless you have built a lot of recast. (Tip: it's personal health related).

[@pinoarias8601]

Does working with recast resin fuck with your health?? Damn, how??

[@JestaultSteinkeKachuik]

@@pinoarias8601 The resin is not regulated and my body now reacts to any plastic or resin sanding shaving and cutting quite adversely. I can shave mold lines and cut around 5 infantry models before it triggers maybe 10 if I'm wearing a mask and I'm outside. It happened after I built several larger recast models and now triggers with official gw resin or plastic. It's like someone allergic to pollen in pollen season.

[@MegaNinjaninja]

moral and ethical cost LMAO, bro cant be real

[@nickz1259]

Look, I don't wish to disrespect you in any way. You are entitled to your own opinions and beliefs, as is anyone else here. That said, your opinions are definitely biased and that really shows in the video. Sure Recasting is illegal, of course. But GW aren't saints, far far from it, and as a person not from the uk, idgaf about whose wage I am paying, and manipulating people by invoking such emotional topics in a video that's meant to "inform" is far from objective truth. You made zero effort of being objective, and that is what moved me to leave this comment here. You are completely misinforming people on the subject brining far too an opinionated take to be calling it "informing", you are simply pushing an agenda, and I won't stand for it. Have a great rest of your day.

[@commentarytalk1446]

Affordable Warhammer vs Unaffordable Warhammer.