Is Marth Worth Using in Ultimate? Feat. MkLeo

[@juicemanvon9859]

Short answer: No Getting tippers is still satisfying, tho.

[@justice8718]

The fact he isn’t instantly makes Ultimate a bad game (mechanic-wise). Marth is a character that embodies great spacing and punish game. The fact he can’t land tippers consistently and it’s a huge struggle to combo with him means that Ultimate is way too limited for a smash game.

[@juicemanvon9859]

@@justice8718 I don't agree with your thoughts on Ultimate. Marth is a bad character because of his design in Ultimate. The fact that he can get a tipper and take a stock at 50-60% is what Ultimate is all about(along with being quick as hell) so in order to balance him, the Smash team thought it would be a good Idea to make tippers hard to get and link that to his knock back and combi ability while all other FE characters don't have that issue. A slight retool of the character is what's needed.

[@justice8718]

@JuiceManVon “ The fact that he can get a tipper and take a stock at 50-60% is what Ultimate is all about(along with being quick as hell) so in order to balance him, the Smash team thought it would be a good Idea to make tippers hard to get and link that to his knock back and combi ability while all other FE characters don't have that issue.” Do you realize how stupid this is when Roy is in the game? How in the fuck did they decide on the design above when Roy is much more consistent, has arguably the best punish game out all of the swordies, can kill at early percents, is quick as shit, and can get decent combos from his weak hits? Right now, Roy is a contender as a top tier. But even then, he’s also held back from the “no macro spacing” bullshit in ultimate, because he ALSO can’t space his sweet spots from the furthest possible distance. Think about it, the best potential sword fighter in ultimate struggles with spacing! Marth sucks because BOTH his character design and the game itself is badly made.

[@juicemanvon9859]

@@justice8718 sorry, bro. Ultimate doesn't suck because Marth is bad. You might want to watch the video again as it reinforces everything I said. A simple tweek to Marth's tipper hitbox would make him a better character. And think about this, Corrin and Byleth has better tippers than Marth and they're beneath him on most tier charts.

[@justice8718]

@JuiceMqnVon Byleth sucks because they are the kind of character a troll makes to describe the current trend of FE fighters (slow and laggy as fuck), except that meme somehow becomes an official smash character. Corrin is a part of that god awful kit trend.

[@Bladavia]

Roy : You can't be too far, but you don't care if you're too close. Marth : You can't be too far, and can't be too close either.

[@sonpham3438]

you can‘t be just right either

[@diamoniquewilliams7807]

@Adam Thompson As someone who plays as Marth at times, I have to agree

[@ramchop-_-7320]

If someone asks me why I prefer Roy over Chrom, I will just send them this

[@GreedBreh]

"people will say im crazy but sometimes the tipper doesnt work" story of my life

[@veccccctorrrrr]

Marth is still undeniably cooler than lucina despite being worse

[@jj6148]

Both of them are still annoying to face lol.

[@aidanflynn2037]

@@jj6148 for me just Lucina. Just because Lucina can throw out pretty much any aerial at any time and it'll work. If marth is spamming I end up living to 180 cuz he can't kill unless my opponent is actually thinking. So if I die at like 60 to marth I don't get that bad.

[@fullcoffee950]

marth is always gonna be cooler bc lucina is just a female alter of him and a product of the full of fanservice fire emblem awakening game, so i got ur point, he is worse fighter than her in ultimate, but cooler in lore and appearance, by far.

[@sunnythedrunk]

He's only considered cooler because Lucina is a better character. They're both extremely boring in this game aside from side b mixups.

[@veccccctorrrrr]

@@sunnythedrunk marth is cooler because of his better combo game, kill confirms and the satisfaction of hearing a tipper land. It's not that I don't like lucina because she's good, it's because she's one of the most linear, flow chart, 2 hit combo characters in the game.

[@owen9517]

I'll deadass main Marth if they buff tipper

[@dylanr.7760]

Ow1 I played marth in tournament once. I agree with you man.

[@jnblack02]

Ow1 Patch 9.0.0: Marth | Grab | Made it so that it grabs people from across the stage.

[@sammoisture4876]

Ow1 facts right here

[@leegak6872]

Ow1 that's so true, right now he does not feel rewarding at all

[@jnblack02]

NotGonnaTell MyName ... y e s

[@Koujicoco]

Since they buff based on online results, everyone should pick marth and sd

[@seansolo3583]

Huge brain

[@TheCodingGamer]

Careful tho, if they see too many SDs they might just think his recovery sucks and buff that... :|

[@joekenneally1844]

They don’t even know how to that look what they did to dr Mario

[@IAm-zo1bo]

That's something we ddd mains try to do But i can't do it trying to lose feels weird

[@IAm-zo1bo]

You can play worse on purpose

[@thomasg7060]

For the tipper: Yes For Viability: No

[@liamsennott7434]

I love that you included a clip of you getting ken combo'd by Ken himself. Perfect

[@bigcheese6417]

Tipper is super inconsistent in this game. His tippers feel like they land 60% of the time. That 40% you are hitting at max range but it feels like the tipper isn't a constant active hit box. I've played him offline in friendlies a lot and I'd say I have really good spacing, but tipper just doesn't work sometimes, Leo even said in this video, sometimes you land a hit max range and tipper doesn't land.

[@thekingbradable]

60% is generous lol

[@leegak6872]

Id say buff the tipper range by like 10 to 15% and buff launch distance on fair and bair on tipper hit. Its not normal that marth kill 5% earlier then lucina with a fair tipper. It should kill at least 15% faster

[@indigoiozzi]

Also there are moments I hit a ftilt tipper super up close because the move is super small when it comes out, so it hits short characters with the tipper Same with uptilt. Makes no sense

[@woomynation]

@@thekingbradable it's not that generous tho. That's saying only 60% of your'e smash attacks kill at decent kill range. Only two thirds of the time you hit strong attacks against the opponent. And this is just Jacob's experience when playing casually with friends (I assume). That means it would be harder to hit more than 50% of attacks as tippers against pros in competitive.

[@bibliomaniacme7454]

Jacob Noel U DONT NEED TO THINK ABOUT THE TIPPER, U WILL FEEL IT

[@sirtimothy92]

Nintendo needs to give Marth and Lucina separate changes. Every time Marth gets something good Lucina gets it too and most of the time it benefits her more than him.

[@IAm-zo1bo]

Yeah like why no one would complain if they are getting more seperated

[@robertwindshade7629]

Considering the biggest complaint about the FE characters is that they're all the same so... Yeah.

[@justice8718]

I have no clue on why they do this. Why don’t they want both characters to be interesting in that Lucina has different combo tools from Marth? A PM mod did this shit years ago.

[@joseluistrejo1859]

Marth truly deserves some buffs

[@Shyningfade]

I always wonder why echoes weren't given moves based on the custom moves from Smash 4. That would help Peach/Daisy too.

[@darksnytax4131]

Larry Lurr: "So now all you have to do is time your attack" Roy Mains: *mashes c-stick*

[@bradl.602]

Roy main here, can confirm.

[@Multi_Step]

Friends a Roy main, can confirm, but don't forget to short hop aerial across the whole stage when your opponent is halfway across the stage and never hitting them.

[@trancandy1]

if you lose to someone like that it says more about you

[@lidofzejar]

@@trancandy1 Our states pgr literally refers to him as buttons because nothing matters, his shit just always works. I'm even an ex Roy main. Nair indefinitely combos into itself and tech chase's as well as crosses up. Fair indefinitely combos into itself and tech chase's as well as crosses up. Uair indefinitely combos into itself and can ladder combo and crosses up. Bair can lead into fair, which indefinitely combos into itself, and can cross up. Jab leads to every aerial, and keeps all of toys Aerials safe on shield because he can jab people who drop shield following an aerial. Every tilt (yes even utilt when sour spotted) leads to a forced tech chase. Tech chases can be looped consistently with dtilt or ftilt. Neutral b is safe on shield, and if your opponent tries to punish it or escape, flare blade on shield > jab is true because they can't jump, roll, or dodge before the hit registers. They must keep shielding. It hits too high and too fast for any other option lol. Fthrow will force tech chases if you di for dthrow, and those chases will lead to jab > bair > fair. Dthrow will kill you if you di for an fthrow because it confirms a bair > fair combo. Everything this fucking character does either leads to a true combo or a 50/50 with a 1 to 2 frame window of difference, lol. Even his fucking sour spots are amazing because they can true combo into his sweetspots for kills. EDIT : This doesn't even mention the cheeky shit. Because of jabs consistency and multiple setups,the only reliable escape is if you mash an aerial. But Roy's jab has so little endlag he can actually parry that and kill his opponent for it. Upward dancing blade and dthrow also does this. Speaking of dancing blade that whole move is busted it kills at like 50 and combos off jab. Flare blades limited end lag makes it one of the best b reverse moves in the game. Roy has an amazing up smash out of shield, and an up b oos with super armor. Like bro this character doesn't even require two hands let alone a brain half the time lol, sometimes I play Roy with my nose for memes.

[@PrettyKoolCrocodile]

Also Side B

[@giorgioguercio3331]

I think they should reverse his up throw back to the one he had in smash 4. It's not much, but it will give him an extra option over lucina

[@maxliu3041]

Giorgio Guercio I doubt they would only buff the throw of Marth and not Lucina, as they are meant to fundamentally be the same character, except Marth has a tipper and Lucina doesn’t. It would make more sense to buff Marths tipper hitbox so it’s less inconsistently

[@eizzah8323]

@@maxliu3041 Them being more different wouldn't be that much of a stretch, look at Chroy or the Shotos, they have significant differences

[@Duck-re3tm]

@@eizzah8323 yeah but he is right marth are intended to be like the same character way more than the shotos or chroy. Comparable to belmonts, pits or samuses

[@eizzah8323]

@@Duck-re3tm The shotos are just clones for the reference to SF, I get it, but Roy and Chrom ? Also it would be great to have more differenciation between clones :) [though very unlikely, I'll give you that] Also Chroy are different mostly to let Roy have his unique reverse grip that Chrom doesn't use

[@IAm-zo1bo]

What he means is nintendo won't do it

[@zabdielespejel6336]

Short answer, the game mechanics are wack in this game. Beefy smash doods made a video about it, and using the C stick for aerials for Marth specifically creates minor drifts forward or backwards, can’t remember very well, and that, plus having less priority on his sweet spot hitbox just makes it about impossible to space anything remotely close to consistently with Marth. The game in general, down to its bare essentials, screws Marth pretty hard. Doubt they will ever fix it to where he becomes viable to solo main. And I’ve been saying this for a while, thank you Leo for saying it, sometimes the Tipper will just NOT work.

[@Saskaruto16]

No wavedash, no shield stop, no precision dash dance, no perfect Pivot, shorter range than older games, tipper not having priority all the time. Marth sucks in Ult because the mechanics all try to prevent precision.

[@justice8718]

@BornBeyond If the offstage and combo potential was higher in smash 4, Leo would pick Marth over Cloud.

[@Spearra]

@@Saskaruto16 I think this length video went into detail on how bad it is in Ultimate: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jKCwkqCVo62Sa5Y Which explains to me why Ultimate always felt off despite being fast paced.

[@Capris9x]

After playing mostly Marth since release, I can identify some issues that can be buffed/fixed. The things I have listed aren't frame data changes because the devs will also do the same changes to Lucina if they buff Marth's frame data. Here's my list of his biggest issues (long read): 1- The tipper/non-tipper knockback ratio for Fair is 1.6x whereas his other aerials is 1.8x. I believe the ratio for Fair in Smash 4 was 1.8x and they reduced it to 1.6x. Either they could simply buff Fair's knockback for both tipper/non-tipper, or make the move have slightly more range like in Smash 4, although the chances of that happening are near zero. 2- Fsmash tipper/non-tipper knockback ratio is freaking 2.2x, the highest of all his moves along with Ftilt. I know how satisfying it is to kill someone with a tipper Fsmash at 40% at the ledge, but for this game I feel he doesn't really need that... So nerf tipper Fsmash & buff sour Fsmash a bit. Also the tipper hitbox's transition frame-by-frame is pretty terrible, which explains the huge reward you get from a tipper. They could make the tipper hitbox ever so slightly bigger inwards (rather than outwards of the blade). Another thing (this also applies to Lucina), Fsmash's transition from frame 10 into 11 has a big gap between the hitboxes, which causes the move to actually miss entirely if the opponent is in this gap, giving your opponent time to make a coffee and sandwich and then punish you accordingly. 3- Bair is his aerial with the smallest tipper hitbox. It is tiny. If you compare Bair to his other aerials like Uair and Fair, you notice the red tipper hitbox protrudes out way more than his Bair. It is frustratingly difficult to hit a tipper Bair even after playing him so much. For a character that should be rewarded for landing tippers, spacing Bair needs to be perfect to work and the reward is barely better than Lucina. Bair is the biggest punch in the face to Marth compared to Lucina, along with Fair's weak knockback. When Leo mentioned that some of his tippers seem to not even work sometimes, Bair and Fsmash are the worst. 4- You heard it a million times. Dancing Blade is super polarized. Either it kills at 50% at the ledge (or lower with rage), or it doesn't even hit at all. This move is simply broken with both kill power and functionality. The better changes to do here are to nerf the tipper knockback on the last forward hit, and also make the tipper bigger on the INSIDE of the blade. I don't care if this move kills quite a bit later when tippered, at least I'll be in control of what happens to my opponent when I use this move. Also the game has the same tip from Smash 4 that explains that the upwards Dancing Blade lands early KOs, even if it can't kill until over 300%. So if they want they could also buff the knockback on the upwards version, or remove the dumb tip entirely. Also side note. Roy's Dancing Blade (or Double Edge Blade) has a HUGE sweetspot that connects even with hitting at almost max range. Roy's DB is basically Cloud's Limit Cross Slash without a meter. I don't know what they were thinking with this one and why they didn't tone it down... You see Goblin punishing out of shield by just jumping into side B (which is a frame 12 oos option, not great but can still work well) to KO at 80% or earlier. 5- The rest is mostly nitpicking, but his dash attack is the worst in the game. It is worse than Megaman's, Bowser JR's and I guess it is tied with Lucina. Trying to land a tipper with a frame 13 move that shifts your character THAT much forward upon startup simply doesn't work in a game this fast. It pretty much connects only from a landing Fair or Nair at low percents. The move lasts a ridiculous 49 frames and has an active hitbox that lasts 2 frames in front of him, and 2 more frames above him. It is a clunky, unusable move. It is way too weak for the startup and endlag. Ftilt replaces this move entirely. 6- Uair's hitbox lasts from frame 5 to 9. Comparatively, Roy and Chrom's Uairs are frame 5-12. Now I know they are different characters and having a longer lasting Uair for fast fallers makes sense. But Marth's (and Lucina's) falling Uair simply misses a lot because of this. You clearly see the blade swing past your opponent during frames 10-12 that have no hitboxes for Marcina. If they added at least a hitbox to frame 10 of Uair, just one frame, I'd be able to consistently hit opponents in more situations. Feel free to add more to this list if you want, but this is my take on what is really holding Marth back.

[@topino1262]

I love how people compare double edge dance to limt crossslash when cloud has no endlag when using the move while roy has a lot.

[@Capris9x]

@@topino1262 Valid point, however as a quick punish it is very strong.

[@Capris9x]

@@sakwja Thanks for your opinion. I would say the KB reduction for DB would be rather minor. It just needs slightly bigger DB tipper to be able to hit all characters correctly. Some characters have a leg or an arm that's just ever so slightly inside the sour hitbox of the last hit of DB, and that's what ruins it for me. I agree with the polarity associated with Fsmash and DB, which is why I think those shouldn't be changed as much as Fair and Bair at the very least.

[@Rhy2412TitanGamer]

Bowser Jr's dash attack can cross up, shield poke, & has not much endlag while lingering. It's better than marthcina's.

[@Capris9x]

@@Rhy2412TitanGamer Yeah I know lol. I was thinking of other dash attacks that would be considered sub-par and JR's dash attack came to mind but it's way better than Marth's lol

[@LendinSwiftbolt]

I'm really glad you made this video. It was an excellent discussion starter. However, I disagree. Marth is not as consistent as Lucina, but that doesn't dismiss him completely as a character. He still has the good range and frame data that Lucina does. It is true that Ultimate is not friendly to his specific playstyle and requirement for precision, but this can be downplayed by controlling the pace of the game yourself. By walking and playing more patiently, you can somewhat force your opponent to slow down and get the tippers you need. That is, of course, considering you think in the mindset that Marth always wants tippers. Marth cannot reliably always get tippers and should not always aim to get them. While base hits are not as good as they were in past games, they're still serviceable to get tipper hits off confirms like Base UAir > Tipper FSmash, Base UAir > Tipper UAir, Base Nair 1 > Tipper FSmash or Dolphin Slash, and, surprisingly, his tech chases. Marth gets a rather good amount of kills off tech chases. FTilt is rather consistent at Tippering opponents if grounded and all characters on a Battlefield platform who are grounded will get Tippered by FSmash. Dancing Blade will not only lock in of it itself, but it's a solid versatile kill option that can be shifted depending on matchup and spacing (FFFF vs FFDF or even FFUF). Marth also get a lot of setups for said tech chases due to having both base and Tipper boxes. Against a character like Lucina, Tipper Nair 2 can start tech chasing as soon as 0%, and his weakest move for tech chasing, his Base DTilt, will still tech chase at high %'s (120%) when even Lucina may struggle to get the right read for the situation. Marth's edgeguarding, while not quite as good, can make up for it with is ledgetrapping. Tipper Nair 2 and FTilt will kill much earlier in these situations, along with Tipper Dancing Blade F4 (this move is kinda ridiculous). If the opponent regrabs ledge, free Tipper DTilt to screw them over angle wise or even Tipper FSmash (which works pretty well as a 2-frame option if you practice getting the timing down). Marth also secures kills with things like a fresh Tipper UTilt at higher %'s (especially underneath PS2 Platforms) and I believe he has a better shield break punish game than Lucina due to this. You can do an initial dash into your opponent and one back out immediately to perfectly space Tipper FSmash after a shield break. This also works with Tipper Shield Breaker, which caps at being better roughly around ~45-55% (old #'s from Pugwest, but an eyeball estimate that will stand to still work). Is Marth inconsistent? Yes, due to hurtbox shifting, auto-drifting from buffered SH aerials, hitboxes prioritizing base hits, and an overall faster engine, Marth is inconsistent, especially to the untrained/inexperienced eye. I know at Top Level, it doesn't seem like Marth has been worth it. It's really sad that this Marth **doesn't** seem relevant. That doesn't mean people who enjoy this character should stop play him and trying to figure out how to optimize him. Want to see a relatively good Marth in action? I highly recommend watching VODs of Killakel, a NJ Marth, and watching channels like SkyLine16, Traystigo, and the older videos from Let Me Smash Gaming and even Fr0stii for more information on Marth specifics. Again, thank you for this video. I'm sure it'll help stoke the flames of discussion about this character. Marth, in many eyes of us players who hide in the shadows, is worth the effort. Glory to Marthkind.

[@LuzoroMD]

Agreed. To add a bit to it, off of a missed tech, Marth gets a sweet spot up tilt standing right next to most characters in the game. At very high percents, sour down tilt will cause a lot of players to miss, because at that percent, down tilt knocks them on the ground deceivingly quick. This is a nice little trick that can be added to ones arsenal of kill confirms at around 140%.

[@vincent1420]

agree. Structured really well too.

[@justice8718]

Fuck no, this game is coming to the switch with a Marth that’s actually worth the sqeeze: m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/on3WmpV-hNVpoKs

[@TUZOIVAN16]

Yes, pretty much this. A lot of people don't even try Marth more than 30 minutes before deciding he can't kill. He has a lot, also great pressure and combo game due to sourspots. Ftilt is OP.

[@Igneous200]

I kind of agree, but Lucina is better than Marth in most ways. He’s so inconsistent that, if you’re choosing between the 2, Lucina is always a better choice. There’s reason to keep playing him if you have always played him, though

[@yoyoguy1st]

One important thing I think was glossed over was how the movement in Ultimate is so much worse. You can’t space yourself properly like the other games, there is no wavedashing, there isn’t real dash dancing there are no perfect pivots so spacing yourself properly is significantly harder than it has ever been before. Of course walking is still a thing but it’s still not precise enough quick enough a lot of the time.

[@JordyFidis]

@NotGonnaTell MyName Bro, just SDI Easy combo drop

[@seansolo3583]

Jordy61601 you can’t really SDI peach’s combos. Maybe her down tilt up air loops, I can see that, but her bread and butters are fairly airtight

[@rtiq270]

Walking is absolutely viable, especially with Marth, who has the fastest walk speed in the game. Dash-walking is a tech not many people know about but should absolutely use more.

[@JordyFidis]

@@rtiq270 Dash walking has incredibly niche uses, and most of the time you do a dash walk, the opponent has already moved away from you. As for walking, you can use it for spacing, and although Marth has the highest walk speed, he doesn't have the highest walk-acceleration. So walking also has pretty niche applications.

[@JordyFidis]

@NotGonnaTell MyName I'm guessing you weren't around for Smash 4

[@jimsface]

Tipper feels inconsistent but it’s not like they programmed RNG into it lol. It just takes an unreal amount of precision to hit tippers when you want, so Marth mains focus more on combining sours into tippers. Techchase follow ups are great for tippers as well. Not saying you’re doing this, but I’m not really a fan of how much he gets bashed in this game. People act like he’s Smash 4 Marth and it’s just not true. You’re absolutely right that the pacing of the game, variance of the cast, and things such as hurtbox shifting all work against Marth. But he does indeed have some sauce: sour fair to tipper ftilt, nair 1 to anything, dancing Blade 4, etc. I’m part of the Marth discord and am happy to chat further about this. Marth mains have a very different philosophy than the mainstream understanding of the character.

[@vipermoon_]

the more people that mention hurtboxes (both variable between characters and the shifting & tumbling of those variables) being the real problem, the better people will understand 👍

[@IAm-zo1bo]

It is rng because of how the hurtboxes move in the game

[@doc8125]

@@IAm-zo1bo no, they move in a consistent way, it's just a fuck ton of variables to take into consideration

[@autonoma566]

vicvidvin vinvidvic you got the link to that Marth discord? 😳 I’d like to know more

[@Popotixovo]

So nice of you to bring an unknown content creator and player to channel! Really supporting the smash scene!

[@theimpersonator7086]

I really do hope they buff Marth in the future, or at the very least make his design less polarizing. A cool bonus would be making Lucina far less of a flow chart character in. Some Ideas I was toying around with Marth would be .Smash 4 Jab- His jab cancel combos in Smash 4 made him so much fun to play in that game. It is even cooler now that Roy has jab cancel combos(and functioning hitboxes finally). Also differentiates him from Lucina .Up Throw-Make Up Throw significantly stronger. Considering how you have characters like Samus, the Rat, or Zero Suit who have way stronger up throws but no problems killing like Marth .Side B- Make this move not be a game of Russian Roulette. I would accept a bigger tipper on the final middle hit in exchange for less knockback to avoid dying at jank percents. Dream buffs would be .Less Endlag on Down Throw .Less Knockback and Endlag on Forward Throw .Less Endlag on Final hit of Side B Upwards Strike.

[@slm8125]

The Impersonator I don’t think Smash 4 jab will come back, all jab combos similar to that were removed in this games like Bowser’s, DK’s, etc

[@mrgibbles5427]

Revert fair and bair back to how they were in smash 4 (do the same for Lucina)

[@veccccctorrrrr]

The tipper hitbox for mid dancing blade 4 is so bad idk how mkleo makes it look so easy to land

[@theimpersonator7086]

@@slm8125 I mean you still have the fighting game characters, GNW, and Chroy. So unlikely but not impossible. Who knows with Nintendo though.

[@theimpersonator7086]

@@veccccctorrrrr Yeah. The hitbox for that hit is not only very sloppy, with the souspots overlapping most of the sweetspot. It is tiny.

[@chiweweman2010]

This game needs more interesting top tiers. Marth is a perfect candidate.

[@keeysOST]

For real. Most of them only have one move or gimmick that makes them good

[@MAlru005]

Top tiers in this game are good, the only annoying ones or boring ones are palutena, inkling & peach...

[@keeysOST]

@@MAlru005 it hurts me that I used to main palutena in ssb4 only to have people SD because they don't want to play me.

[@MAlru005]

Keeys don’t get me wrong, the character can be super hype but the way people her or any other character makes it seem boring, look at mkleo’s joker, you might not like joker but you can’t deny that his joker is impressively fun to watch...

[@Pavel7918]

tbh I would prefer to see low tier characters buffed to mid/high tier rather than have more top tiers.

[@LuzoroMD]

This is one of the best videos that I've seen from a top player on Marth so thank you so much for making this. I Duo-main Marth/Roy and so I wanted to give my opinion on the matter. First, something that MkLeo said is that Marth feels faster than Lucina. He said it was impossible but it's actually true. The reason this happens is that Marth's sweet spots and sour spots have different amounts of stun on both players. I don't know what this is called in the community, but every attack has an animation that happens when a move lands on something, like another player, a shield, or an item. Think of when a move hits Pac-Man's hydrant and makes the hit box last longer. It's the same thing happening. Marth's sour spots have less of this for both players compared to Lucina and his own sweet spots. When you are playing in neutral and hitting shield, or the opponent with sours, you have around 1-5 frames less of this lag, and so you will be able to throw out more attacks eventually, until you get a sweet spot and this lag is increased. Also I apologize as there is probably a really simple phrase for what I described, but I also don't want to be wrong and call it something like hit lag if that isn't what it's actually called. Another slight thing that MkLeo said, is about Marth's Dancing Blade killing slightly later than Roy's Double Edge Dance, but this is actually the opposite. Marth's will kill about 15% earlier, but the first 3 hits may add some extra damage for Roy, since his are sweet as opposed to Marths being sour. That may be why he said that Roy's kills a bit earlier, but i'm not 100% on if that bit of damage makes up for it. Marths' hitboxes are really small, or at least his sweet spots are. This is honestly the only thing I feel is holding him back from being one of the best characters in the game. I really do believe in him, and think that he could be better than Lucina in his current state, but I feel there aren't any super high level reps like VoiD with Sheik to push his meta and lab out his confirms. I have personally labbed out a kill confirm from 70 - 145, but I can't guarantee that they are practical to be hit in a real game because of DI or other factors, and they obviously change based on size, weight, fall speed, gravity, etc of the opponent's character. All of them are from a tipper down air on a grounded opponent, or other aerials, like Nair-1. There are also very interesting kill confirms at around 30 with sour up air into F-smash, and there are many other confirms into plenty of his most potent kill moves. Overall, with a slight decrease to the size of his mid sour hit box, I feel that his sweet spot would feel more consistent, and the window for combos and kill confirms would be larger, and it would only take a top player with the time to put the effort into Marth and he would become top tier. I also feel that if Leo put as much effort into Marth as he has for Joker, we would probably see some even more effective and consistent kill confirms, that would only be stronger with the buff I mentioned earlier, and Marth could definitely be higher than Lucina on tier lists. However, as it stands right now, I can see why people think the way that you do. As Leo said, if someone plays him and expands his meta, he could be quite good, and in my opinion, better than Lucina without a single buff. I'd still like to see that sweet spot be easier to land, but even if we never get it, I will still main and love the character.

[@zangetsu5549]

I want someone to make a mode where the whole sword of marth is a tipper

[@davidcatanzaro8838]

Already happened, check out VisheraYT

[@Andrew-gm1du]

They did. His name is chrom.

[@jcpote1711]

Marth: Hard mode Lucina: Easy mode and waifu

[@skyline1613]

Marth is a long term character, you will start up bad but with enough time you will thrive to better places that lucina can't reach. Imo marth and lucina take on different playstyle's and knowing what works for marth will help. Fun fact. Marth and lucina both have the same tipper hitbox in terms of side and launch angle. Only difference is knockback. To test this go to practice and put your opponent at 500%. Then land a nair 1 tipper and sour with both character's, they launch at the same angle

[@aidanflynn2037]

My respect for someone who mains marth is infinitely more than someone who mains lucina. And I used to main lucina.

[@keeysOST]

I guess I get no respect :(

[@aidanflynn2037]

@@keeysOST nah you get respect if you're good. Obviously me and everyone else in the smash community had tons of respect when Leo was playing Lucina. But playing marth is still much more impressive.

[@keeysOST]

@@aidanflynn2037 well I can't really say for myself if I'm good or not, but I agree Marth players really do some hype things with him.

[@I_like_your_handle_Mister]

Thanks man

[@quantumphysics7093]

I respect you because you USED to but now you dont

[@JackMeyHoffer562]

Excelent video Larry. It amazes me how you can break down a character you don't even ever use or play against. Even the best Smash 4 Marth says he's not worth using in Ultimate. I completely agree with both of your points. He's fun to play casually, but I don't ever see him winning a major by anyone. I had to retire my old friend, I've mained him since about 2002-2003 when I was undecided in the early days of Melee. #RIPviability

[@lewyn4k]

Marth's tippers, overall, WEREN'T made harder to land in a statistical sense. No tipper hitbox sizes were changed from Smash 4's last patch to Ultimate. The only cases where tippers did become a little harder to land were in the cases of fair and nair, where the sourspot hitbox was shifted a tiny bit inside the tipper, and because sourspots have priority if you hit both on a foe, these two moves have an essentially slightly smaller tipper. That last fact is another reason why Roy seems to 'work better' - his sweetspots have priority over sours, which is what makes his sweetspot seem so much bigger than Marth's.

[@eizzah8323]

Sweets should have priority over sours on Marth

[@soncscoot9929]

@@eizzah8323 no, no, otherwise marth could hit with the inside of his sword and get tippers. Marth should have "middle hits" similar to what Roy has. Make the second hitbox a semi tipper which is ever so slightly weaker than Lucina. Roy has similar middle, non-sour hits and it doesn't make him too broken.

[@lewyn4k]

@@eizzah8323 this has never been the case, and boy, you'd want it to be reverted if you ever had to fight that.

[@eizzah8323]

@@soncscoot9929 Roy has middle hits on like 3 moves ..

[@vipermoon_]

Bair is especially what you're thinking of. Besides DB, Bair had the biggest sour movement, ruining edgeguards a lot of the time - since you have to account for character hurtbox and animation shapes/movements

[@Domlightning99]

Keep in mind, even if one pixel of the opponent is touching the sour spot, it counts as a sour spot, even when it should be a tipper.

[@edgelord8337]

Grab range can no longer stretch to the moon. But he still has that tipper because holy fuzzy that's a great move.

[@theswagatron]

conquest in the background got me tearing up

[@kaletafirst5053]

jim is that what its called?

[@theswagatron]

@@kaletafirst5053 yes, from fire emblem awakening

[@somasora7]

Facts bro. Still my favourite fe track

[@Maqb06]

I can see leo's improvement at speaking english, but he uses too much the word like hehe. Great video btw i still play marth in this game :)

[@DavidBrowne003]

That's because he learned English from the smash community. They all do it, to be honest.

[@BloodRain222]

sounded completely fine to me

[@dwybo646]

Leo already has Joker. They cant give him his Marth back.. that would be scary

[@EliSkers1]

Oh but it would be beautiful

[@philipkeane6417]

Short answer: No Slightly longer answer: Yes

[@foxtrotyeah]

imo reason why he’s worse than in previous titles is pretty simple: landing tippers requires great spacing. Ultimate’s movement options compared to previous titles is nowhere near as good, so you can’t microspace as much as you need to with this character.

[@Ki-gz8ve]

Joe Agreed. I think the best fix would be to add a bigger sweet spot with more priority for his tippers.

[@jasonlobo2350]

@@dubiouslittlecreature908 even smash 4 had more movement options xd

[@MorphRed]

@@dubiouslittlecreature908 Brawl and smash 4 were slower meaning it was easier to land tipper. Also smash 4 had perfect pivoting which was like Melee's turnaround cancel but better ? And c-stick aerial didn't make the character drift in older titles

[@michaeljames6737]

But ultimately fast that's one thing I like

[@doc8125]

Fast does not mean spacing is hard if you have proper movment options, that is what the game lacks

[@evanhamula]

Moral of the Story: Marth is worse than Lucina, But still a good character, and the day is his, not lucinas.

[@tertokis]

And he will live to fight again

[@nikhilm2803]

Marth is like that kid in school who works super hard, but still gets mediocre grades

[@keeysOST]

Anyone remember rising side b into drag down Nair into jab 1 and repeat? Some wack combos back in ssb4

[@De_La_Soto]

Very insightful and informative, as usual. Great video!

[@colinhoeg4728]

Honestly since the patch last month I hope they just leave him alone now when it comes to the tipper hitbox. I dont want it too big cause he'll go from underrated to broken. Tipper kills so early. Lighter weight characters like pikachu and fox die from forward smash at like 30%-35%. I love him where hes at. Requires more skill than any other fire emblem. And is way more rewarding.

[@edgarsanmartinjr.4278]

Been training with Marth online and stuck at the 6.5 mill mark, I enjoy him a lot and it always feels good to land a tipper, but I agree that the effort of learning Marth could better be put to Lucina for now since she’s an all around better character you don’t need as much technical spacing setups to be good with. However, playing as Marth does teach me about spacing my moves which is pretty transferable to other characters

[@wesleyheikoop739]

I was thinking about this for a few days now. Yesterday, I played Marth in an online tourney, because I like to play as him. Then I faced a Lucina. I was a stock ahead, but I couldn't space correctly for her last stock and still almost lost because of lack of power without the sweetspot, while that Lucina was dangerous every hit. This is very unfair. This feels like you are doing hard work, but you can't space all the time and that Lucina is relaxing and still almost win with ease. The point I want to make here is that (although Marth isn't bad) there is NO SINGLE REASON to make Marth so weak to his counterparts, that being Lucina, Roy and Chrom. I mean come on, Marth is *the* main Fire Emblem character in Smash and in the series as a whole. So please Nintendo, bring Marth back in the game. He is one of the most fun and interesting characters in the game.

[@wesleyheikoop739]

@@dubiouslittlecreature908You're right, I said that because Marth is my second favourite character in the game. The point is that I don't know people who dislike Marth. I do know people that dislike Pichu, Olimar and the other characters you stated. That's why I said that Marth is interesting. The only advantage of Marth over Lucina is the fact that he is more fun to play.

[@nikhilm2803]

Marth is like that kid in school who works super hard, but still gets mediocre grades

[@justice8718]

@PK Kevin YT OFFICIAL That’s because Marth‘s gimmick is naturally cool and viable, unlike the characters you mention. The tipper gimmick is like Peach’s float, simple but very effective. Both mechanics are also meant to test out your knowledge of the game, your movement, and punish game. The problem is that fuck up the movement options and punish game in ultimate.

[@Blittsplitt5]

Shut the fuck up already. He's literally just as basic and cookie cutter as Lucina, Roy or Chrom. You lost because you suck. Stop crying so much about the character; if you think they suck so much, STOP USING HIM.

[@cag_0k642]

Guy Lloyd That was rude and incorrect, nice combo!

[@Person-ts9dy]

I think the community forgot that the only difference is one has tipper, and one has evenly disputed damage

[@theblackbasketball]

I read the title as, “Is Math worth using in Ultimate?”

[@shaan3512]

.. That is the title.

[@theblackbasketball]

Mr Confidential Of course, what was I thinking

[@shaan3512]

@@theblackbasketball.. I can't tell whether this is a joke that's completely going over my head 😅

[@cag_0k642]

Mr Confidential Tell me the difference between math and marth

[@marzipancutter8144]

@@cag_0k642 You need math for Marth, but you don't need Marth for math. As such, Marth is a subset of math we will henceforth refer to as "simple geometry".

[@Eroil]

It's cool seeing leo collaborate with a lot of KZbinrs, shows he's humble and doesn't mind helping "lesser known" players in the community. Good seeing that even when he's at number 1 he doesn't let the ego get to him too much

[@Blittsplitt5]

Shut up

[@Eroil]

@@Blittsplitt5 Thanks for the insightful feedback

[@emoimo4171]

No, a shut up is an extremely valid response Larry Lurr has had a huge impact on the competitive scene for years now. He's not lesser known in the slightest, just because he has less subscribers than someone like Zero. He's a top player, and they're friends

[@Eroil]

@@emoimo4171 Now that's something I can actually understand. It may surprise you, but not everyone who's watching Larry knows the full history of the competitive scene and the full extent of Larry's contributions. I said what I said because to a new viewer like me, he's an entertaining creator that has 14k subs and isn't ranked very high. Guess I'm a piece of shit, should've known my facts instead of giving a compliment

[@emoimo4171]

... 14? You mean 42k? What are you talking about? And it just comes off like one of those “Oh, it’s so cool that [modern young star] is doing a song with [legend of the music industry they don’t recognize]. He’s being so nice to that random old man” kind of posts.

[@thelordoftheweebs9501]

I think marth is high tier. He's inconsistent though, but besides that pretty basic playstyle. Half the cast is mid-slow speed. Which can help marth get tipper in some cases. Same goes for small characters. Might be easier to fight them. But fast characters like joker and zss can be a nightmare.

[@leaffinite2001]

That fire emblem theme mix at the beginnings is dope bro

[@dashmasterboss8251]

i wouldn't want to give up on a character that i enjoy, even if it means i might not do as well in tournament

[@keeysOST]

That's what really matters

[@-smudge-5209]

Marth buffs -make the back of upair not a wet noodle, why is there no hitbox?? -dancing blade up less lag so you can maybe get an up air out of it -tipper hitboxes slightly bigger -up throw kill like 10% earlier Everything else you can kind of get around. Yeah, dancing blade mid 4th hit tipper is tiny but its pretty consistent, theres a rhythm to it. There are just some things that are just aggravatingly not doable, and some things like the up air that don't make sense. Small buffs would just make this character more fun, regardless of tiers. I'm still playing him regardless

[@Milo-same]

Up air has always had that hitbox, just in smash 4 they extended the animation so the swing keeps going

[@MetalMusicMan]

I feel like they just need to buff the damage and knockback of Marth's Aerial Tippers and that would go a long way

[@leegak6872]

On fair upair bair and maybe nair. But dont buff knockback on dair cause he can confirm a fsmash to kill at 60 haha

[@richpichu1272]

Leegak that kill confirm dair into f smash is so satisfying

[@yosma6]

Leegak Omg those tech chases with dair to tipper f smash look SO cool

[@manongraymond5481]

Just fix the hitboxes.

[@PocketMitts]

I think one of the easiest and most fair changes is to give Marth his old jab, BUT ONLY on tipper jab so that you have those guaranteed follow-ups (this way Lucina will not have access to it), OR just make his tippers work as they did in previous smash games; in the case that both the tipper and sour spot hit an opponent the tipper took priority. As well as fixing some of the absurdly bad hitboxes the first thing that comes to mind is side-b forward 4 (the tipper range is way outside the visual tipper hitbox).

[@Prokuaman]

I feel like even a fast paced game, more precise movement would benefit him greatly, like melee has with being able to dashback with a wide window, wavedashing, etc.

[@IAm-zo1bo]

Let's talk about buffs that are possible cuz you know nintendo won't do that

[@Prokuaman]

@@IAm-zo1bo ofc Nintendo won't make a brand new game just for Marth, it's just that he's benefited greatly from more precise movement options. Also I got no ideas for buffs.

[@Bizbang]

An extra note for the section that compares the effectiveness of Roy's mechanic vs Marth: Roy is still rewarded with hit-stun from the weak-hit when opponents are outside the sweet-spot, unlike Marth. When aiming for Marth's sweet-spot and the opponent is barely out of range you miss, and they get the duration of your attack animation to punish.

[@Danielsworlds]

Melee Marth is still being innovated on today. Years later. Marth will be good. The ability to use soft hits to combo at higher %s and once people get better at the game and the character and find those setups he will be able to kill. But it will take time. Marth took years to get good in other games. Why are we expecting it to happen over night in ultimate

[@Oceanandskylinevidss]

how about you start picking marth up and showing us cuz Me as a Marth main agree with everything the video says

[@keeysOST]

But what melee math has is that the game mechanics don't work against him unlike ultimate.

[@igirjei3717]

@@keeysOST I can't think of anything that works against marth in ultimate that does in melee too. If you think Marth's sours are minus on hit, you've never been crouch canceled in melee

[@keeysOST]

@@igirjei3717 what the hell are you even talking about. I never said anything about all of that.

[@igirjei3717]

@@keeysOST About sours being minus on hit? I know but that was just a common thing that's brought up and I used it as an example

[@ricardoludwig4787]

I also think that one very important detail is that their up throw was significantly nerfed(maybe not directly, but it really relied on rage to kill early) as it decreased the inconsistency of marth by assuring he could still get kills at reasonable percents with a throw. Also, 2 two matchups that playing math over lucina made the largest difference were the 2 most important matchups in the game in bayo and cloud, where his tippers allowed him to at least compete with the witch in explosive potential and allowed him to contest cloud at least a little if he spaced right, whereas lucina couldn´t do either

[@jnblack02]

Before Watching: I main Marth, just want to see what his opinions are. I want to see what he brings to the table. After watching: I really appreciate what you did, and I can understand where you are coming from. But there are a few things that I want to add or clear up for people: 1.) The only hit boxes they changed from Sm4sh to Ultimate was Fair, Bair, and DB. Fair and Bair moved the sour up just a bit. Makes them better combo tools, not necessarily for killing. DB is entirely new to this game and it is an extremely useful tool for wiff punishing and tech chases. 2.) There is a new kill confirm for Marth called Rend Heaven, and is sour falling Uair, sour Nair1, or Spike Dair into Dolphin Slash. This combo is always true and will kill at 100% depending on rage a d weight. 3.) Marth and Lucina have entirely different play styles. While they both focus on strings into juggles, edge guards, and/or ledgetraps, Marth focuses more on tech chasing. He can setup into a tech situation from 0% to +150%. IMO, Marth and Lucina should not be compared because they play drastically different. I do believe that Lucina is better, but not as much as people make him out to be. I put Lucina at Low Top Tier, while I would put Marth at Top High Tier. Thanks for making this video Larry, I really appreciate it, and I like that you had Leo voice his opinions. I don’t believe that Marth needs buffed, we just need to better understand how Marth should play in Ultimate, and have people adjust. Other than that, he’s really good. Good day, and thanks for reading.

[@topino1262]

Rend jeaven is such a badass name, btw for the sour up air into dolphin slash do you jump or do it in place because I know the move is weaker if you don't hit with the initial hitbox.

[@jnblack02]

Vic tor kzbin.info/www/bejne/nXyuh4xrfZh4oZY

[@davesnow7133]

My friend is one of the devs for this game. He said Marths tippers were based on a Gaussian distribution in this game so some tippers purposely don’t land.

[@dal4268]

Dave Snow why?

[@justice8718]

Fuck the devs, Dan Fornace is Jesus Christ in comparison (although, he practically is platform fighter Jesus Christ for pushing the heavies, tippers, and zoners to new nights).

[@emoimo4171]

@@dal4268 Joke, dumbass

[@Odd2cTV]

Marth is good in a game where being good isn't enough his tipper mechanic holds him back

[@DragonWarrior7771]

Nice! Full of information, never thought about how the speed of the game would affect him

[@stevendaily3695]

If I could play on his Japanese voice yes it’s worth it

[@robertwindshade7629]

Change the language to japanese in the settings, and he will speak japanese. You're welcome.

[@meloette9896]

@@robertwindshade7629 It's no longer the same voice.

[@robertwindshade7629]

@@meloette9896 No, but it is japanese.

[@stevendaily3695]

Robert Windshade but then all the other characters voice is on Japanese and I only need marth on Japanese

[@robertwindshade7629]

@@stevendaily3695 Well... You can't have your cake *and* eat it, so you're gonna have to pick. *Shrugs.*

[@doom9242]

Cool video. Like the way you make them Subbed

[@edwinvargas7969]

Marth has many combos and setups at a wide range of percents to setup for tippers, for damage and kills. I think it will take time though, and unless people take him seriously in that way, we might never see it come to fruition. I wouldnt hold my breathe on an update saving him too. I think Tippers are consistent if you become skilled at the spacing, and knowing what to do if you land a sourspot instead. Competetively, Lucina is the superior choice, however, to me, Lucina is too linear, so I believe as the meta moves on, she will fall off. This is where Marth can step up and replace her, just based on the variety, uniqueness, and kill power that he has. Of course, its not something people will simply be able to pick up, it will take time to develop his meta and be able to implement it as well.

[@justice8718]

Marth isn’t rising up in the meta, Roy is. If Marth and the game’s mechanics were better, Marth would already be in higher places.

[@archangelwolf1661]

I totally get what MKLEO says about tippers not working. I've had that happen to me multiple times. I think what hurts Marth a lot is that there isn't much for him to use for movement options. Other games he's been able to use wave-dashing, dash dancing, perfect pivoting, and walking to help him consistently get tippers.

[@anselb.7026]

Marth is literally the most unga character in every smash game he's in. Needing a basic understanding of spacing doesn't make a character hard

[@johnnycrash4892]

Try playing him in this game then

[@anselb.7026]

@@johnnycrash4892 I do?

[@Neon-yj9xw]

He's nowhere near as unga bunga as Ike

[@johnnycrash4892]

@@anselb.7026 liar!

[@emoimo4171]

Were you dropped as a baby, dumbass? This is literally the best competitive Marth player in the world No one cares how good little Timmy and his friends think the character is

[@q-bearschroeder8958]

Why are people so focused on the tippers? Sour spot leads to follow ups way more consistently than Lucina. The fact that you have tipper can lead to Tech Chase’s at several different percentages as well. Marth sour spot downtilt at ~120 (midweights) sets up a tech chase. Marths tipper downtilt set up a tech chase at ~80 (midweights). You can get multiple results from the same moves and it’s super easy to react to tippers and read your opponent’s options when you can put them in tech chases more often. Hit a tipper when going for a sour spot? You get immediate Stage Control and a potential edge guard. The best way to play Marth is to just play around the sour spots and react to sweet spots. Marth’s combo game is better than Lucina’s 100%. Lucina has more “consistency” but people just don’t want to take the time to learn the launch distances of each move for Marth. Marth also doesn’t have to commit to Smash attacks in neutral because you can just forward tilt and get an easy follow up or a kill at higher percents. People don’t play Marth now for the same reason people didn’t play Greninja. The combos were “too hard.” Just learn the percentages for when moves set up favorable situations. It’s really not that hard.

[@mehgamer467]

That doesnt excuse people from playing harder combo characters like peach. Peach actually has more reward long term. Mkleo and other pros don't care about that "difficulty" if the reward matches it or far exceeds it. The character doesn't and mkleo would just stick to marth before joker came out if that were the case. General population tho yes.

[@q-bearschroeder8958]

MehGamer There are set ups into Tippers which can kill at early percents. The risk reward is the same for Marth as it is for any character.

[@q-bearschroeder8958]

valy0f Lucina has “consistency” but it also makes the character so linear it’s hilarious. The trade off between Marth and Lucina is simply how much info you are willing to learn about your character.

[@mehgamer467]

@@q-bearschroeder8958 then tell me why other marcina players like mr.e and used to be mkleo NOT play marth very long? Thats the point of this video. If it was the same then marth would be played more.

[@leelee8d793]

I hate, how everyone drags down Marth, I think he's almost as good as Lucina, it's just that noone is willing to/ thinks its worth to pick him over her, because she's better and easier so why invest the time in marth? Also, I said it before and I'll say it again, Marth isn't more fun/ hype/ cool than Lucina. Both characters are stylish and hype.

[@cboscan1]

00:28 that dair fsmash combo is so easy and clean to pull off and kills at 55 lmao

[@curtisbrown547]

no, the amount of perfection in your play that you need to achieve to be better than a lucina's average top player is beyond human level. you just have no margin for error

[@BeretBay]

I'd say I'm stubborn for still maining Marth, but this video just makes me want Marth buffs I never knew I wanted for him.

[@dylanr.7760]

I brought marth into tournament one time and that was one of my worst ideas. It was BEYOND stressful. I rly hope they buff him :/

[@NiceIntelligentGamers]

You can hear the passion in mkleo's voice while talking about Marth

[@Gemarald]

The thing is while Lucina has damage that’s balanced Marth has theoretically better moves and would be better in every way theoretically, however to do that you would need to hit tippers all the time which is close to impossible in practice. The problem i would say is that the tippers are incredibly slim and to be better then Lucina you would have to hit tipper over 50% of the time, and that’s just not just incredibly hard to do but insanely hard to do. And that honestly just sucks, i mean the idea of Marth is way more exciting then Lucina, and Lucina’s existence basically makes playing Marth unviable. I mean would you rather watch a character that has a strong and weak hitbox that rewards spacing and strategy, or a character that just makes you space and rewards with more damage. If Lucina didn’t exist or just had the same stats as Marth it would be more exciting to play as them, trying to perfect spacing, and stuff like that as right now the hitboxes of tipper and the damage difference being 50% tipper 50% not tipper on Lucina is just insane. Personally i think Sakurai intended Lucina to be a better beginner Marth however it turned into being a better Marth. I just don’t think that Lucina brings anything good to the table and that she basically just takes things away. However i do see how some people would dislike the tipper, but does that justify making Marth way more unviable? Anyways that’s just my opinion so if you like not having a tipper that’s fine by me, i just think that it makes playing as Marth/Lucina more boring. Tldr: the tipper is an amazing concept however Lucina’s existence ruins it and makes the game more boring as she’s better then Marth who has the tipper making it unviable. I would love to hear what you all have to say as i might hear something that i didn’t account for.

[@guitarshredder456]

Always down to hear you and Leo chat about the game :)

[@Milo-same]

I appreciate you making the video, I don't care about your overall opinion but here are some general things that I felt the need to be corrected. Hopefully this can be pinned, if you don't mind The only hitboxs that were changed was Nair and bair. Bair was made huge in the same patch bayo dropped and that was undone. Mostly because it gave him a kill confirm off throw which were all taken out of in this game, and Nair was pushed back to cover a dead zone he had on his upper arm. Marth was largely untouched in the transition to ultimate. There also seems to still be a misconception that sours = unsafe, which isn't true. Both on hit and on shield sours are still safe when done properly. A good Marth literally fish for sours for 85% of a match. Both Marth and Lucina have generally weak aerials with killing, their aerials are combo tools and for gimping. Marth's Nair and Lucina's bair really being the only exception, both killing ridiculously well. Marth's notable kill moves are more so Nair, Ftilt, and DB. Fsmash only comes into play during tech chases and shield breaks. Lucina really only has bair and fsmash. But again, this is only considering on stage and not ledge trapping, tech chases and edge guarding where this characters get early kills from. On shield, their safety typically goes Tipper > Lucina = Sours. For example, falling Fair tippered is -5 but for sour and luci it's -6. Marth's dancing blade is actually stronger than Roy's. It'll kill about 15-20% earlier. The range difference in smash 4 seems to be brought up a lot like it's an actual factor? Their range difference was literally a single pixel more for Marth on most moves. It should also be noted that their range difference actually came from the fact that Marth had a slightly bigger model than Lucina. Their range was still technically the same. Their models are the same size now which is why they have the exact same range now. Marth can FEEL faster because sours have little to no hitstun. It sort of feels like Leo is implying Lucina has a better combo game? If this is true it doesn't even warrant a response, Lucina is a one hit reset neutral queen. The idea that you can land tippers or that it's harder in this game feels like such an odd though. Consistently landing tippers does exist, and it's ledge trapping and tech chases. At the end of the day, an inability to land tipper in situations like this with fixed positions it's strictly on the player and nothing else. As far ands match ups go, they have the same overall MU spread. You can argue Marth does better vs other swordies, like chroy, for example.

[@Milo-same]

If anyone has any questions or comments I'd be happy to discuss this with you. It's hard to believe most actually understand how the character works or what's true and not true

[@vipermoon_]

A couple of corrections: Fair and Bair sourspots were moved outwards by a lot, especially Bair - not good for consistent edgegaurds that Lucina easily gets. Aerial shield safety is like that with Fair but with literally all the other aerials, Lucina has tipper shield stun. Just how the damage and formula works out in her favor. There are others you should consider like Dtilt. Hers is way safer doing 9F of stun vs Marth's 7/10F (usually you get the 7/sour because shields are huge so a tipper on a character model is a sour on a shield). Tippers are not always on the player. Every character in this game has different sizing of their limbs, tails, bodies, heads and MOST IMPORTANTLY the recoil and tumble animations they go in when they get hit or are getting juggled. This is the only thing making tippers sometimes RNG, especially for Dancing Blade which doesn't work well on some characters due to harboring Marth's smallest tippers in his moveset.

[@Milo-same]

@@vipermoon_ fair was barely moved, fairs tipper size went from .5 to .4. The only notable thing about fair changing was the lowering of is kb and rage being toned down. It's hitbox is realistically unnoticeable in its change. I agree with bair, like I said, it's pre-bayo release bair now. Fair and Nair are the only aerials you're spacing with for shield anyway, and Lucina also doesn't share tipper safety on that move either. (Though Sour is less than Luci by a frame for Nair, even on sour at point blank Nair is ridiculously safe). You can consider shield stun, but that's also already considered when looking into safety and Sour dtilt and luci dtilt only have a frame difference while there's a 3(? Maybe 2) Frame gap between luci and tipper. As I said, in situations during tech chases and ledge traps, you are in extreme fixed placements. In neutral I would agree with you that tippers can feel like rng, they always have. Once you're in advantage though there's only so much they can do to prevent it, this is ignoring the fact that most players use their own movement to make the opponent go into where the tipper will be when you're in advantage rather than actually spacing it yourself

[@vipermoon_]

@@Milo-same Idk why that discord uses ratios, it doesn't tell you which hitbox moved and it's not precise. Look at actual game data. Smash4 Fair sour/tip sword hitboxes: position 2.0/7.7 units, sizes (radius) 3.5/3.5 units Ultimate Fair sour/tip sword hitboxes: position 3.5/7.5, sizes 3.0/3.0 This comes from memory but it's 100% accurate Results? Closest Possible Tipper: position 5.5>6.5 units (sour moved out 1.0 when radius change is accounted for) Change in Max Reach: 11.2>10.5 units (-0.7) Combine these two to get Tipper Zone Size: 5.7>4.0 units (-1.7) rubendal.github.io/ssbu/#/Character Bair's story is even more tragic. Want me to talk about that one? Nair is fine btw, besides an animation change reducing range, it's not hard to tipper (getting both hits to tipper is slightly tougher though, but that's because you're expected to move your character during Nair to catch the second hit's tipper) Edit: you're wrong about Dtilt, what I said is correct rubendal.github.io/SSBU-Calculator/

[@MetaKnightX6]

Well for the power differences I wholeheartedly agree on the killing power on aireals but on the ground all of his moves apart from like down tilt are astronomical units ahead of Lucinas

[@AHGavInDaUSA]

Lucina is so boring. Marth was really cool because you wouldn’t just mindlessly hide behind your disjoint all game, you would actually move and space. Lucina just goes slice slice slice with no thought. RIP Marth.

[@shikhar2327]

Considering how fucking massive roys sweetspot is, marth should have a bigger tipper hitbox.

[@carrot791]

Walmart

[@NaTzuSalamander]

i am pretty sure that lucina and marth had the same hitbox on smash 4, its just that marth was taller so his arm was reaching a little bit farther

[@DarkFox2071]

If he had his Japanese voice he would be better automatically

[@xozzy830x]

Great video. Quality content. Subscribed

[@ByoKora775]

What I find appalling is how some people think Marth is the clone of Lucina and that really goes to show people don't know anything about smash and Fire Emblem and I think he is worth using cuz I use Marth more than Lucina I love Lucina as a waifu but I don't care about playing her as a character or secondary or main also there are times tippers hit where they shouldn't and it's amazing. I think you should gave got Salem in on this conversation too cuz he believes Marth has potential more than most people in this game. Basically Marth needs better frame data to actually space or wall opponents out. I think Marth is more stylish than Lucina. I think people lose potential with Marth cuz they swapped off to Lucina and lose how to actually tipper. I've actually gotten up air to up air tipper plenty of times. I totally disagree with this opinion I don't give a fuck about consistency also cuz I just play marth more than Lucina because you're more rewarded playing marth and learning to space than Lucina and I just enjoy playing marth more anyway

[@Riley-u8m]

I’ve never heard a single person say marth is a clone of Lucina .

[@MrScruffy32]

Where's "El tech de Jesús" clip on the Sm4sh segment?

[@Aloly0490]

I play marth because the tipper is so fun to play with, lucina is much more of a brain-dead character compared to marth and i feel it makes her stale after a while, but with marth it is a good challenge trying to hit that tipper consistently, essentially fun cos i need to think while playing (also that sound effect for tipper is so damn nice)

[@elgatto3133]

By the way, dancing blade's F4 tipper is actually past the edge of his sword by a fair margin, so if you guys are having trouble killing that may be why. I'm a pretty bad marth main, but something about him makes me want to stick with him.

[@zentember]

delayed side B for kills is still super broken and yes the opponent is constantly moving which requires superior spacing but the opponent will sometimes extend their hurtbox out and give marth a free tipper. but i do agree with mk leo, and i don't know if he was alluding to the Z axis, but sometimes marth's tippers don't convert when they should and that should be fixed

[@Nitro1396]

Good vid larry

[@Eltrotraw]

One of the things about Marth's tippers is that if a tipper hitbox and a sourspot hitbox both connect, the game treats this as a sourspot hit - the sourspot takes priority. This was also the case in Melee, but as mentioned in the video, Marth had many ways to set up off of non-tippered hits in other games, Melee included. As a result, an easy way to buff Marth is to reverse the hitbox priority, thus making tippers more consistent. I'll gladly take a tipper damage/knockback nerf if this means that tippers can be landed more reliably. Another easy way to buff him is to make the sourspot hits less... punishing on hit? I get that Marth should be getting rewarded for landing tipped hits, but as also mentioned in the video, realistically that's not possible to do 100% of the time. Either more damage or base knockback would be welcome there (though I'm aware increasing base knockback by too much would ruin his combo game off sourspots too).

[@igirjei3717]

The only spurs that are minus on hit at very low % are f-tilt, rising aerials(besides n-air2), shield breaker, and DA. And sourspots having priority was 100% intended as if you gave his tippers priority, you wouldn't be able to land a sour when you want it at all. And marth still gets amazing reward off of sours, most notably his tech chase setups which will be Marth's easiest way of killing

[@parkermarker742]

I totally agree with MKleo on the tipper hit boxes feeling like they should be tipper and they aren't. Hell on Link his visualization of where the move ends and where the tip of the sword is hell of a lot better, its especially noticeable on Fsmash. Marth needs better visualizations to reflect the actual hit boxes, or hitboxes that match the visualization.

[@anthemofadam]

MKLeo's channel: kzbin.info/door/vAR_BDFclXJ1Q9ndUhWLCA not sure why Larry didn't link off to it in the description...

[@bluejay7688]

"What the hell is this" my exact thoughts when I saw this in my recommendations. How hadn't I seen this sooner!

[@deadchannellmao7409]

along with cloud I secondary marth. ive mained him since brawl and this is the only smash game where I haven't mained him even though I play him almost as much as my joker. I just want my tipper boi to get buffed.

[@Xrelent]

Want to add some stuff: Why Marth was better in Melee: - Bigger tipper sweetspot. - Wavedash and movement sensitivity help with spacing. - Sword swings are a bit slower in Melee. A little more lingering means a little more leeway. Edit: Also characters didn't have as much explosiveness so the slowness wasn't as much of an issue. Why Roy does better than Marth: - This has to do with hitbox priority. Roy's hilt is generally assigned an id of zero, while Marth's is generally the highest. If two of your move's hitboxes collide, the one with the lowest id wins.

[@igirjei3717]

The majority of Marth's tippers in melee were smaller actually, and sword swings are about the same speed, it's just f-air that had more active frames. Also if Roy's sourspot had priority, his hilt hitbox would be borderline impossible to hit at all, same with marth if you gave his tippers priority

[@RiskyBiscuit]

I'm imagining a scenario where a Lucina main would want to switch to Marth specifically vs other sword characters.

[@humblepawn]

I'm not sure if this could work, but I think he'd be much better if his sour spot actually did more damage than the sweet spot, but with just super low knock-back. The tipper hits should have low damage but even higher knock-back. This would allow him to play more aggressively at lower percents, and allow him to to get easier kills at high percents by spacing and playing safe; it'd much more rewarding and dynamic playing him.

[@emoimo4171]

No

[@igirjei3717]

Why would the weaker hitbox be stronger? Lmfao

[@DylanC333]

I think the best buff for Marth would be to just increase the area on his sword that registers as a tipper. Don’t change knockback or anything, just a slightly larger tipper hit box

[@igirjei3717]

The only tipper I would make bigger is DBF4, and even then some people disagree with buffing tippers at all

[@braydenhale7336]

MkLeo looking like hero in his command selection in the thumbnail

[@omarcasillas6188]

11:02 is a perfect summary. Cool character, better alternatives

[@Dimadome12]

Hey Larry, can you make a video about Wolf flash combos

[@ZWarrior89]

Sakurai has to somehow see this video.

[@spookster2265]

Marth is Lucina at 66% power but has a 20% crit chance essentially, with skillful opportunities to raise that chance. For fun character. I will mention though that his up smash is extremely good at surprise taking stocks as the non tipper version that scoops up from the side (after a roll, for instance) kills around 120%.