Is There Too Much Guessing In Modern Fighting Games?

IS THE PROBLEM ACTUALLY GUESSING, OR IS IT SOMETHING ELSE?
In the Modern Vs. Old Fighting Game discussion that's been permeating social media of late, one topic in particular keeps cropping up: guessing in Fighting Games. Many claim older games didn't have as much guessing involved, but is that really true? Is there something more to it than that? James explores this in detail.
== TIME STAMPS ==
0:00:00 Intro
0:01:46 FGs Have Always Had Guessing
0:06:19 Risk Vs. Reward
0:12:20 The Shoto Fireball Trap
0:18:51 Low Risk And High Reward
0:21:37 Defensive Options Are Bad
0:25:05 The Guesses Are Too Defined
0:29:17 Virtua Fighter Is All About RPS
0:31:37 GUESSING IS NOT THE PROBLEM
0:37:25 Defensive Rewards Are Too Small
0:43:02 Different Games Are Different
0:45:47 Why Is Xrd's Guessing Not Problematic?
0:47:30 STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT EVERYTHING
0:51:25 Things Are Supposed To Be Cheap
0:54:27 FGs Are Fun With Variety
0:59:35 Games Have To Teach Better
1:06:48 People Like To Feel Powerful
1:09:02 Defense Needs To Be Rewarding
1:10:41 Zangief Green Hand Rant AGAIN
1:13:17 Variety Of Guessing
1:16:42 Can Defense Be Hype?
1:19:44 Giving Players More Info
1:23:34 We Can't Blame Guessing And RPS
1:33:07 How Do You Stop Heat Smash?
1:34:07 Closing Thoughts
Find the KZbin version of this episode here:
• Is There Too Much Gues...
Get the audio version of this episode here:
/ guessing
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[@azizkash286]

Brainless low risk high reward offensive structures are the issues. Most fighting games right now are ending rounds from such few interactions that they suck to play but are fun to watch

[@PorkBelly-]

Tekken 7 in a nutshell

[@numa2k147]

It started in the last generation of fgs

[@richr161]

There is a reason for that. If you make offensive too risky the best strategy becomes to turtle. That has always been a fighting game problem. Making offensive fun, not necessarily perfectly balanced.

[@akairibbon4658]

GGXX #reload was way more fun to play even though slayer and eddie were running wild. You actually took a while to die in those games, I think that helped.

[@horplesmoff]

I really love this long form, intellectual discussion content, FGC needs more of this, it makes my commute so much better, thank you james!

[@deelystanonfightcade2]

I’m a long time brain dead player and I love it too!

[@gamelairtim]

Would anyone even play a game where every move was so slow you could react and every character had an answer to every attack?

[@UltraChenTV]

Ugh no. That would be awful!

[@gamelairtim]

I think that a lot of the people complaining about guessing have trauma from guessing wrong too many times in the corner under pressure... which is supposed to happen. I don't think they are realizing that less guessing would lead either to ridiculous defense options stronger than perfect parry, or offense with more readable telegraphed moves... which would lead to everyone turtle poking.

[@imcel8953]

Not a traditional fighting game but early on in For Honor it was exactly that and it was terrible lol. Couldn't throw out any moves or they'd be parried.

[@brandonkellner2920]

Didn't someone make a turn based fighting game? Regardless, people play strategy games, so yes, except the part about an answer to every attack, which sounds like hyperbole anyway.

[@BingusBiggums]

The thing about guessing in fighting games is that yea its true that most interactions are centered around making reads and guessing. The problem I see which you mentioned is the risk reward being so skewed in favor of the aggressor. In older fighting games, the reward for guessing correct was not as huge thus more interactions were required to win. A good example of this is if you had a literal rps tournament and the winner was determined in a best out of 100 instead of best out of 3. The best of 3 would feel a lot more random and volatile due to the sample size being so small but in comparison the first to 100 would employ a lot of accurate guesses and allow players to adjust to each others strategies.

[@cynical_perks8725]

The bit about the Street Fighter car tricking me into learning about highs and lows blew my mind lol great discussion James

[@benmcgiggles7655]

As a Gief player, I 100% agree with your point of how to fight grapplers. We think landing grabs is the most fun thing in the world, so you have to take away our fun. Just like zoners stop having fun once you get in. We all enjoy the moments when we can play to our character's strengths. But honestly, I've learned to love running into the people who run away the whole time. One, because it's good practice on how to stop those strategies, and two, because the feeling of finally cornering someone and getting your hands on them when they've been avoiding you the whole game is so goddamn satisfying, and the best part about playing a grappler in the first place.

[@Emiridian]

55:37 - 56:17 Just this segment is a sentiment that should be wildly promoted and reiterated to everybody in the fgc and anybody even interested in watching the fgc. James absolutely nails it here

[@shaideyfresh1]

Great content as always, it would be dope if we can see actual visuals with some of the stuff you were discussing here. Great video as always James!!! #FGCTipOfTheSpear

[@verbatim7508]

1:03:52 - 1:05:19 i was just thinking that this little section of the stream where you're talking about heuristic tutorials in games would make a REALLY fire KZbin Short, lol.

[@TheWordPlay]

It's so funny. The entire time I was thinking VF, but I was not ready for it to come up in the discussion lol

[@aLiveKidz]

"try to check jamie's drive rush" amen to that ! I tried it in training room 2 days ago, that's soooo hard !

[@NotSnapdragon]

I'm glad you talked about KOF, UNI 2, and VF in examples of things being done right!!! It's too bad that they are niche in the west.

[@killahteck402]

Old games had more options selects and if you didn’t know someone it was hard to get the tech.

[@daRockReaper]

As A VF player, I don't think the problem is guessing itself. It's just that the outcome spread of most popular games is either you get out of a bad situation or you lose a chunk of health . There isn't really any ways to hedge your guesses at all defensively without a huge down side like drive parry or push block in 2D games

[@UltraChenTV]

Yup. Risk/Reward. That’s the main theme of this video. I talk about that a lot.

[@frothyslider253]

I think that’s a problem with player expectations though. Drive Rush and Wild Assault are metered mechanics. FD, drive reversal, parry, deflect shield all exist. You have to use the defensive mechanics the game offers you to deal with the stronger offense.

[@UltraChenTV]

Which is why people suggest to make raw Drive Rush use more meter. But I think that would hurt characters that need more raw Drive Rushes for decent combos. So if we can’t make DR cost more resource, increasing its risk would help mitigate that.

[@mutantmangoman]

Deflect Shield has been an underrated addition to Strive. It’s a nice piece of strategy on defense to get out of most mix up options in exchange for burst.

[@666slateran666]

Sometimes its fun to break up the flowchart and turn on the random switch and pull out move #69 that nobodies ever seen. Being predictabo is the easiest way to get got in fighting games

[@GanguroKonata]

Said it in the thread but it's so weird how I can't get oki on even Manon's hit grab but Ken can bring me across country to the corner off a bufferable safe normal and now I have to block for my life and somehow those two situations are different

[@francissebastiansamson8561]

In terms of the guessing - I think it's because offense and closing-the-distance options have been improved in SF6, and the closeup rps mixups situations happen a lot more frequently. The closeup rps mixup guessing game, in a way, dilutes the fighting game archetypes. The difference is quite clear in Tekken games in comparison to SF3 and SF4. In Tekken games, there are more target combos that move your character forward, thus closing the distance is a lot easier. Tekken is a game of keeping the momentum and mixing up the mid, low, or throw rps mindgames. The different characters are just different styles of the same rushdown momentum-heavy gameplay. The juggle combos also give good risk/reward to rushdown offensive gameplay. In, SF3 and SF4, the difference in archetypes are more prevalent. Unlike Tekken, you don't get to use rushdown momentum, at least not with a lot of characters. There will be "controlling the space" situations whether thru zoning or thru pokes and footsies, it depends on the archetypes. You're not in each other's faces the whole time. Now, SF6's driverush system gave everyone the offensive options that makes closeup rock-paper-scissors situations more common, with not much risk to the one on the offense. I can only imagine how Sagat can use his archetype style in SF6. I can only imagine a poker like Vega be like in SF6. Like what lots of people say, it's not that there is guessing, it's just that you are too busy guessing to have an interesting identifiable character archetype. "Everyone has an archetype until they get hit by a driverush." ... eventually everyone will be rushdown.

[@francissebastiansamson8561]

When rushdown options are too strong, other archetypes phase out.

[@SHendrixx2]

Short answer is yes..Great vid btw

[@marlinmurrell620]

49:20 Exactly, I agree 1000%

[@Jonatha1908]

I dont think just increasing the reward for stopping Drive Rush is the way to go. The difference between the top tiers and low tiers right now is how easy it is to check their DR. If you improve the reward, top tiers' DR will still be difficult to check, while making other characters suffer even more to use the same mechanics. IMO they should just increase the hitbox during DR or have some sort of lower priority when trading, but I'm fine if they also increase the reward for stopping it, since some characters can barely get anything for stopping a DR.

[@joecoolmccall]

57:00 As I watch the game develop, the thing with JP is, while he might not be over powered persay, he does seem to be playing a different game. Grapplers and Zoners at least seem to come from similar cloth. JP seems out of place. 🤷🏼

[@MichaelJohnson-vu3bt]

Grapples and zoners seem like they're cut from the same cloth because they still have drive rush. What really made JP different is that he has defense that no one else has and is hard to beat.

[@HolySok]

I feel like he is deliberately designed to be the "anti-Street Fighter" character due to his attitude towards Fighting, the main themes of the game and the World Tour Mode. I think they melded that with his gameplay. To almost be an antagonist in his Fighting style and just not through his characterisation alone.

[@HiResDez]

YES!

[@dangerousshoes]

All the tutorial talk really makes me lament the loss of TFH's development. They were going to have more boss battles a la Melee Break the Targets & Adventure Mode. It's a shame.

[@via_negativa6183]

Yes there is, options being taken away in Tekken 8 that used to have interesting counterplay with lateral movement ect is my main problem with the game. Maybe it's less of a factor in 2D games but tekken is already difficult enough without it being turned into a coin flip in every interaction.

[@jamaledwards8118]

The truth is guessing has always been in fighting games. Just the knowledge back then wasn't insane like it is now. Street fighter 3 was a huge guessing game due to how insane some character offense was back in sf2 and alpha series. The sad truth people are complaining because they're losing and its easy to complain about. Back then fight games had insane guesses in mid fight. That will never change. Every new edition of a fighting game comes out there will be more ways to skin a cat and less ways to defend since watching someone block and win is boring vs someone attack and win. I have to agree with Punk when he says it limits our playstyles. Its hard being a player who guards and counter vs a player who pushes the safest button over and over again or do things with zero regard and lack of a real punishment for doing that. However old installments had top tier characters that could do these things. Which is why when I hear comments like "back then fighting games" it falls on death ears. I'm 35 and had my share play of a lot and i mean a lot of fighting games.

[@marlinmurrell620]

1:20:37 I mean, with Tekken you're supposed to pay attention to the hands when you try teching throws.

[@UltraChenTV]

I tried training that in Tekken 7 once and it was absolutely futile. I cannot see the difference nor process it fast enough to react with the right button(s). My visual processing is bad so for me it’s mostly reads and guesses to break a Throw. And even if I could see it, it’s different depending on the way you’re facing and I’m left/right dyslexic, so it makes it even harder for me. It would be easier if I could tech with 1 or 3 based on which hand is further back and which hand is further forward. Even then, I can barely ever see a difference. So for me, it’s practically a pure guess every time.

[@marlinmurrell620]

@UltraChenTV oh okay. I see understand. Tho just for general knowledge breaking grabs is based on which hand reaches further out. Left hand = 1 break. Right hand = 2 break. And both = 1+2 break. Now if im correct, new to Tekken 8 you can break generic throws (the character's 1+3 and 2+4 throws) with either 1 or 2. Though it would still end in a 50/50 break whether of they use a 1+2 throw so you use 1+2 to break or they use the generic throw which you press either 1 or 2. So my explanation might not matter that much to you lmao

[@carlospalhares40]

👌

[@tonymortison4816]

i actually agree with this, i've come to realize this too in sf6 after the throw loop shenanigan's that the western players are abusing and the asian players aren't incorporating that 50/50 mixup into their mentality, they're more skill based combo setup players than westerners. so early on i always brought up how cheap that throw loop mixup is at the corner and would get shut down like 'buh buh 50/50's always in fighting games'... i realize now that yea, absolutely but still something is off on how cheap throw loop is in the game of sf6 in the corner... and i've come to your conclusion in this video, its that the throw loops corners LITERALLY have very little risk involved in it. they actually need to reward the defensive players for guessing RIGHT on the throw loop, for instance +10 frames on throw tech IN THE CORNER which will grant the defensive player a meaty combo and/or wakup od dp that allows a juggle into a combo, this will allow the cheap mechanic like westerners to not feel like i'm bashing their secret method to winning games cheaply and at the same time allow folks who don't want to resort to that mixup gameplay and rely more on skills. its practically a win win really for the throw loopers, throw loops aren't nerfed at the corner you can abuse the 50/50, and the defensive players now have the opportunity to get more reward for guessing right.

[@SuperTwoU]

That kind of already exists with back dash in the corner. You can back dash a throw and blow up the attacker who tried to grab you.

[@tonymortison4816]

@@SuperTwoU that is true but we're talking about little risk, if backdash really was the solution u would see it incorporated by everyone by now but u dont instead u see the opposite really they just keep throwing. plus u also have to time the backdash just right in order to get the confirm. so adding a throw tech +10 frame at the corner would fight off a committed throw. so throw loopers wont feel their shyt is nerfed they now just gotta be careful now throwing.

[@chimpmasterflex]

I feel you largely covered what I was going to say lol. The risk reward is so fucked now. In sf6 there isn't a huge difference from corner combos or midscreen ones, and everyone is just buffering drive rush all the time. There is very little, if any hit-confirming going on, and on defense the risk of actually playing is so high that a lot of people just opt to not play lol. I mean that in the shimmy vs take the throw situations, and I'm just kind of sick of seeing that dictate so many matches. Seeing world-class players get thrown anywhere from 2-6 times in a row really says a lot on how bad things are with that. You also know there is basically zero chance people will drop a combo, so being at 60% or sometimes higher is already a "guess for game" scenario. I used to already call that out, but I noticed when Jwong is on commentary he says it constantly too lol. But even then, on defense, what are you supposed to do? What are they supposed to do? Risk parry when throw is such a common oki option? DI? which loses to throws too, or at worst just gets you counter DI'd and you die. DP? Well assuming you have one, a blocked one means the round is over and you're basically burned out and dead, and the rest of the round is a formality, let alone the 40-70% you're taking from the ultra max punish (pending resources). Level 1? Well same thing just no burnout risk, so you may actually get another interaction. Even then you can do a meaty jab to some characters, which makes their level 1 borderline useless for reversals. Backdash a throw? well unless you're in the corner, you're not getting anything besides "out" and even then actually punishing a throw is so light, that some characters get basically nothing without spending dr, which feels terrible. Jump? Oh you got anti-air'd or crosscut. Drive reversal? Very similar problems to DP. It is actually absurd how bad defensive options are. I also miss chip kills, and in some cases, chip in general. It was just an added/interesting layer to the end of matches, and just gave a reason to make offense happen. There is always that possibility that something absurd or crazy could happen. Daigo vs infiltration at capcom cup with the evil ryu is the kind of prime example of that. It isn't always so "pre-determined" in outcome, the same way burnout situations are.

[@VarthDaver]

I guess first you need to define "Old Fighting Game" because as far as skewed tactics that favor Offense you have from 3S Urien/Oro unblockable loops that are virtually riskless, to the fabled "Vortex" from SF4. And in other games it comes to mind Cyrax/Kabal/Kenshi in MK9, not to talk about how silly Injustice 1 Aquaman was and had one of the best defensive options ever.

[@megamawile8540]

We have been guessing since the beginning. Its a weird argument to me.

[@uberculex]

Guys never played against SF2 Vega

[@junior1388666]

Ah, yes. I remember in sf2 deejay turning green and getting in my face with plus frames all of a sudden. War never changes.

[@UltraChenTV]

Yup. I say this myself in the video. Guessing is a fundamental part of Fighting Games. But there is a difference with modern games. Hope you have a chance to watch a good portion of the video!

[@condescending28]

​@uberculex older games it would be a character or 2. But it wasn't the Mechanics like it is today. Of course we had to guess but it wasn't most of the match. Now guessing is the majority of the match.

[@uberculex]

@@condescending28 The only reason there wasn't more guessing back in SF2 was the prevalence of options selects which created checkmate scenarios.

[@Belbaisy]

The most guessing fighting game ever from my opinion is EVIL ZONE Who played it will understand what i mean .

[@pinkt1t5]

Pros don't like PP, because it has almost zero, 0, repercussions. You just do it and most cases you dont get punished. 2000 damage should be bumped to 2500. Go back to old school SF2 days.

[@tayleson1727]

Heart

[@catnekokot]

The guessing game itself is never a problem, the problem is what game lies before guesses. If this is a game rich in nuances and a variety of options, random is just a part of it. If that's all there is in the game, it's a waste of time. Xrd great example, but not for "old FG was about guessing too", exactly opposite of that, fireball rc approach can look like 10 different thing with Ky only, not to mention about opp. choices. Kum mix - if you can by eye see what it is, it's your win in a small game, part of a Xrd game! If you can't - you can learn it OR leave it as random guess, up too your ability and invest, mb YOU think more hours in combo better for you? "rich in nuances and a variety of options". Modern games mostly tells you "do it like this or die" - sure, old got it too, but % is way lower. You can play fun set with "throw only" in Xrd and that would be rly fun; can you in your game now and don't fall asleep? GBVS make exavtly same thing with Rising, shred giant pack of knowledge and skill iteration to 66L and made the throw an impossible thing so you don't have to worry about it, so now it's full random game where random hit or open lead to win, that's it FTGJ, Strive and other modern FG still got cool choices and all, it's way more closer to coin flip than it was but it still not. But. They've hide it behind HUGE time invest to get there, they are HARDER in that regard exactly bc guessing is more important part of gameplay. Xrd example still perfect here - are you sure your begginer opponent doing fireball rc / Kum mix perfect everytime? I guarantee that this is not the case. Are you sure your begginer opponent Nago doing beyblade mix that you need to lab 24/7 perfect after 5 hours? I guarantee that this is the case for 99% of Nago who was in training for 5 hours. So from here there is NO choices, there is situatiun and right or wrong solution to it ONLY. Another coin flip, and you will create a game from dozens of them when you learn them 500h later. Once again - is this rly better?

[@maaramori3404]

This topic is the reason fgs are not popular. There isn't a single pvp video game with guessing that prevalent.

[@UltraChenTV]

It’s much more than just guessing, though. It’s very educated guessing based on psychology and pattern recognition. And a lot of risk/reward management.

[@maaramori3404]

@@UltraChenTV I've been playing these games for 4 years. Reached ultra gold in sf5, now diamond in sf6, fujin in t8. I don't know what to think about in matches, I just optimize my pressure, punishes and that's it. Everything else is completely random. I used to play LoL and Dota and there wasn't such thing. Even when we take a look at a simple 2v2 skirmish and omit the other aspects, every step was completely calculated in those games, because you have small number of abilities that are also limited by their cooldown. From here you can calculate what they already use, what's left - those reductions dictated your decision making and behaviour. In fg you have all those tools available at any moment, and proccessing such large moveset (like in t8 for instance) seems impossible to me. It's pure guess what's an opponent's going to do next. King's running at you and he can do either mid knee, low ball smasher, shining wizard, armor, etc. There is no mathematical reduction here, hence head's empty. I bet this is the reason not many players play gfs. Everyone want immediate meaningfullness, because only a kid would enjoy just mindlessly pressing buttons.

[@UltraChenTV]

Yeah. The proper way to look at most Fighting Games isn't the guess that you have to make when King runs at you, more that... how did you get into that position in the first place? I once asked Floe (RIP Floe) how I blocked his UMvC3 high/low mixup that was basically an unblockable. He said, "Don't be there." And that made no sense to me. But as I watched him play Justin, Justin was NEVER in that position to get hit by it ever. He just played Neutral better and knew how to avoid Floe's setups to get there. Fighting Games are a lot like this. While a lot of modern fighting games have started leaning a LITTLE more into the guessing nature, they still follow that principle heavily. If you are getting Throw Looped in the corner in SF6, the question isn't "How is this fair?" it's more: "What mistake did I make to get put into this corner position in the first place?" Forcing you into a guess is typical the REWARD for smart play and getting someone into the corner successfully. And if you watch top players, oftentimes they NEVER end up in the corner to have to guess against weaker players because all of the wins they were achieving were in Neutral. Again, forcing the opponent into a guess is supposed to be THE REWARD for your smart play in Neutral. You said yourself you're not sure what to think about when you play Fighting Games. And that IS one of the hardest parts. Because there's SO MUCH you can do, how do you choose? It comes down to character matchups, system mechanics, etc. but the MOST important one is this: studying and reading your opponent. How do they like to play Neutral? Are they aggressive? Do they jump a lot? Is their Neutral really strong and they are just looking to whiff punish you? Etc. Your goal should always start from a BASELINE and expand HEAVILY in a direction that is SUITED FOR YOUR OPPONENT'S PLAY STYLE. If you are thinking, "What should I do with my character?", you're playing it wrong. It really should be, "Oh. I noticed they like to do X a lot. What does my character do that can beat X?" And that's how you grow as a Fighting Game player. And eventually, it doesn't feel like you're just guessing at what to do. Fighting Games are a 2 player game. And everytime you ask yourself, "What should I do here?", your answer should ALWAYS be based on information you've gleaned from your opponent. Always. For example, if I fight a Ryu, first thing I do oftentimes is backdash. If the Ryu chases me, I automatically assume they are a more aggressive Ryu, and I gear my decision making to be more defensive and letting them hang themselves. If the Ryu back dashes or starts to Throw fireballs, I automatically assume they are defensive so I try to play a little more offensive and figure out their poking patterns and how they want to defend. And it keeps growing from there. And you'll be wrong a lot. But as long as you can make the adjustments on the fly, that's all what Fighting Games are about. So hopefully you do give them a good chance again. I stream fighting games on twitch.tv/jchensor a lot and whenever people ask questions, I oftentimes launch into a tutoring session just for them. So if you ever stop by, say Hi, and hit me up and I'd be glad to help!

[@maaramori3404]

@@UltraChenTV The situation vs King is the neutral. You're already in that situation from the round start.

[@BLewTheKake]

It's the neutral skip

[@FapasaurusRexx]

I think you hit it on the head. Defense just feels much weaker and therefore we’re put into RPS situations way more often and that’s what’s really annoying. I’ve seen Sajam’s take on this and he says offense has to be stronger. IIRC it was something to the effect of the game being much more boring if defense is too strong, but I think that’s not okay because not everyone wants to play an offense oriented game. We have anime fighters or MvC esque games for that. I hope future iterations of SF6 introduce more defense oriented buffs or system changes to balance the scales a bit more.

[@elpib3407]

"Georges St-Pierre the famous mma player" lmao nerd

[@UltraChenTV]

When watching this back for timestamps, when I heard I called him an MMA player, I definitely facepalmed. LOL!

[@NoblesseSnake]

Not really just about guessing that's always been there in fighters. Its more about high offensive reward moves with little to no risk that lead into ridiculous damage. This is going on with Tekken heat system at this time. For example, Hitman when DnF first came out had a normal DP. However, when hes at low life his DP became safe on block and lead to a full highly damaging combo follow up if it landed. Very braindead. Its situations like these that people don't.

[@666slateran666]

You do notice most americans dont play or care about virtua fighter. Therefore people arent used to rps all day. Also whats up with the greenhand slander? And you call yourself a gief player lmao. Seems like the waifus with cammy and Kim are more your speed. Still rocking gief almost a year later and he just got the lariat super buff 💪 👌

[@UltraChenTV]

Because literally the Green Hand has never been actually helpful except in SFIV largely thanks to it having the EX version. And again, EX Green Hand is a LAZY move. I'd rather buff Gief in far more interesting ways.

[@akairibbon4658]

for me the problem is health is too low. You guess wrong twice and you're dead

[@Mage_Nichlas_]

I'm a Guile main but I personally hate Chip Kills even if they would work in my favor. However, I think the way that Street Fighter 6 does Chip Kills is amazing. Part of the reason that Chip Kills off of non-Supers is so annoying is because it throws the Strike Block Throw, the basis that Fighting Games is built off of, in the trash. A Chip Kill means that Throw beats Block and Strike beats Block. It's like if in Chess when all of your pieces get taken and you've still got half of your Pawns but your opponent can just phase through them for an easy Checkmate. Blocking from 2% Life and Blocking from 35% Life or 100% Life are mechanically different and that's not the greatest design. However when in Burnout, it is a different state where you have visibly failed in the game and Chip Kills are an extra punishment. It is your fault you're in Burnout and it signifies to the player the actual threat with no use of their Drive Meter and taking Chip Health instead of Drive Gauge Damage. Blocking in Burnout and Blocking while Drive Healthy are fundamentally different even if they serve the same general purpose and same input.

[@UltraChenTV]

Strike/Throw is a relatively new meta. Old games were almost never about Strike/Throw. So it’s not even remotely close to being the basis of Fighting Games. And a lot of that is BECAUSE there was Chip Kill in older games. Too many Fighting Games exist with Chip Kill that feel just fine. Also, having Blocking feel different at different percentages of health is *awesome*. I LOVE that. Much better tension and consequence and story telling for players and audience.

[@Mage_Nichlas_]

I can't say you're wrong at all James. I never played old games against anyone but the CPU, much less competitively. It's just my view as a newer player I guess but I'd rather not Chip my opponent in exchange for not getting Chipped myself.

[@VarthDaver]

@@UltraChenTV I think we have Aquaman chip damage to blame for how games are chip-damage adverse now.

[@bbyjohn11]

In sf6 my biggest comebacks have been from making the opponent guess wrong on wake up 3 times, which I love. Also I hate when I guess wrong 3 times and get perfect’d 😂

[@MansMan42069]

I hate it when Zangief's loyal fans show up 🥲

[@bbyjohn11]

@@MansMan42069 I lost to a gief would caught me with a wake up level 3 and had to dm me like it was a long con for him eating meaties the whole match 😂. I could only be mad at myself but come on it’s does like 60% damage it only takes two exchanges to lose the match if the ca hits you.

[@MansMan42069]

@@bbyjohn11 Zangief's loyal fans, man... too stronk

[@bbyjohn11]

@@MansMan42069 when you neutral jump it tho?! Paper beats rock 😂

[@Chaoskae]

Hot take: I wonder if the people who hate “guessing” are they players who have an unhealthy nostalgic love for SF4. 😂😂😂 maybe they were carried by OSs and vortex into Unblockables. They don’t wanna guess they want their “set play” with nonexistent oki 😂😂

[@MansMan42069]

This is only a hot take to people with SF4 Rose tinted goggles.

[@Felipera_]

If it was all "guessing" (as in luck based guessing) MenaRD wouldn't be winning everything for fucking years. Or Justin before him. Or Daigo. Or whatever GOAT from whatever game you can think of.

[@yourstillwithme]

SF4 was the last SOLID fighting game we had. It had chip kills it had ONE of the best soundtracks it paved the way for online gaming for fighters it had meter management and didnt refill next round it had meter you had to MANAGE AND THINK about how to use it it had cheap vortex but wake up fadc ultra was scary too! defensive options existed with srk fadc on wakeup focus was a better mechanic then drive impact because you could fwd and backdash cancel it, and cancel from special moves. it had a lowISH skill ceiling and brought in new players it had extremely technical and rewarding characters with low health for high risk high reward (seth, akuma, viper, gen, cammy) it rewarded execution with actual difficult combos with 1f links it didnt have stupid 3f buffers making every single combo easy high tiers took skill to use and werent given wins. Elena was hard and so was Evil Ryu. SO MANY 1f links the roster was incredible. im sorry, but its the best we have ever had in SF at the end of its life cycle devs actually CARED about the scene and communicated to us!!!

[@MansMan42069]

🤦🤦‍♀️🤦‍♂️

[@yourstillwithme]

okay bro, SFXT then, UMVC# then, SF2 then, SF3 then, doesnt matter. Anything around the time of DBFZ, mvci, mk11, SF6 etc all suck ass dude. Fantasy land if you think those games are amazing lol@@MansMan42069

[@Chaoskae]

Blinded by Nostalgia.......................

[@yourstillwithme]

@@Chaoskae Im not blinded by shit dude. I have 14 master ranks and i hate the game and think it sucks. I barely put effort in and i beat 1700 MR players. Games a joke.

[@thepuppetmaster9284]

Rose tinted glass

[@patchworkx7955]

You know what I hate about this discourse. Who are these better players getting dogged out by "new" players? Is Mena not good because he beat Daigo in SFV? What about SF6? Why can't a new player beat a og in Virtua Fighter? If they did is VF ass now? There's so much ambiguity in this discourse where no one truly knows what anyone means.