J.D. Vance vs the Proposition Nation

[@bengesell]

Excellent commentary. I love Americana. Shared loves and an obligation to those loves.

[@Adj7991]

Ask Ben if Israel is just an idea.

[@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast]

Lol

[@rinihogewoning6528]

Great point.

[@fandude7]

I Thank God for president Trump all the time. He respects people of faith and leads with conservative values. I don't look to Trump for religious instruction or teaching. Love your channel.

[@HotelCharliHill]

Definitely. But it is unfortunate he’s so enamoured with the gay crowd AND WORSE, won’t recant on his covid response

[@fandude7]

@@HotelCharliHill I know. I'm still waiting for the perfect president to run for office. In the meantime......

[@conceptualclarity]

At least he didn't do any shout outs to the grays in this convention speech. Would like very much for him to lose his "Log Cabin" friends

[@fandude7]

@@conceptualclarity Gays are people too. It's not the normal gay people that are your enemies, it's the "gay mafia."

[@HotelCharliHill]

@@conceptualclarity Grays? Aliens? Log Cabin friends? What's that?

[@josuepenaloza4030]

Great commentary, fully agree. I came to this country 25 years ago, in the first years thanksgiving had no meaning for me, now I love this holiday, but it’s a process that indeed takes years. I’ve followed Shapiro for some time, he’s conservative but politically pragmatic, this time he went off the rails, every conservative but him understood Vance’s words.

[@djgdjg6612]

I agree our ancestors and what they did for America matters and makes us Americans also

[@krismckenzie7759]

I thought Trump responded to the attempt on his life in a very humble way. He seemed very sincere in giving God the glory. I was afraid he would respond like Herod in Acts 12.

[@MisfitTina]

God who? He needs to bow the knee to the Lord Jesus Christ.

[@asimon8313]

Agree with you 100% on Shapiro.

[@davidhay6235]

Showing deep thinking and understanding Wise post

[@Eric_Lichtenberg]

We actually should not be surprised that we are hated for natural affection.

[@conceptualclarity]

40:25 the stance that Ben Shapiro has taken is that of holding two views on marriage redefinition: in one pocket a public policy view in support of it, and in the other pocket a private religious view in opposition to it. It's basically pro-choice Mario Cuomo on abortion all over again. "I personally oppose abortion and I'm a really good Catholic--and don't you dare tell me that I'm not-- but I cannot impose my religious view on public policy, and therefore I support a woman's right to terminate that baby." As Jon pointed out a few years ago, even a Gospel Coalition article advanced this view on marriage redefinition, and this is where Walter Kim has taken the National Association of Evangelicals. This is a heinous stance, and Christians need to oppose vigorously within the church the idea that it is morally or spiritually acceptable for Christians to advocate wicked public policy stances and try to wash their hands by simultaneously claiming to have a differential private spiritual view of the matter. However as Jon has stated recently, this is where most of conservative punditry has gone since the Obergfell decision proceeded from the Supreme Court in 2015. We should not be permanently resigned to it, but it's the reality we have to cope with for now. I do not hold secular conservative pundits to the same standard as Christian spokesmen. I would not say that these people are not conservatives at all but I would call them weak, unsound conservatives; basically what Sean Hannity has clearly been for a long time . I think we need to keep in mind that the enemy is the Left. Just like Mormons and Conservative Catholics who may not be regenerate, weak and unsound conservatives like Ben Shapiro and Sean Hannity can be cobelligerents in the culture war to some extent, so that we may live to fight another day. I would caution people against getting riled up against Ben Shapiro as though he were on the opposing side altogether. I agree with Jon that Ben Shapiro is not somebody who should make the cut in terms of podcasters whom Christians in general listen to regularly because we only have limited hours in the day and there certainly are 20 podcasters more worth listening to than Ben Shapiro. In my own area Matt Walsh was on at 9:00 p.m. until recently when he was replaced by Ben Shapiro. I protested to the talk radio network and they did not heed me, so I don't tune in at 9:00 p.m. anymore. Obviously Ben Shapiro is not the ideal conservative pundit but neither is he the enemy, and we should not make a big issue out of his tribe when so many conservative pundits outside of his tribe have similarly let us down. For years before I found this out about Ben Shapiro I have been sick and tired of hearing conservative pundits say "I don't care who you sleep with"😝

[@th6252]

That wasn’t the first time JD Vance made the statement about the US not being an idea but a people and a nation, but i was thinking of the 1607 project when i heard him say it the first time. Also, looking through the lens of research from people like Mark Dice, I realize Pat Buchanan never stood an honest chance against Bush. It was already predetermined who the next Repub candidate would be well before Reagan’s time was up. Would be interesting to see Jon have a convo with Dice.

[@conceptualclarity]

This is what I said. Buchanan was a protest candidate like RFK Jr running this year in the Democratic primary, not a serious contender

[@ZephaniahL]

Of course Shapiro also appears to lack the self-awareness to acknowledge that his reasons for supporting the US. ‘idea’ and the Israeli national idea are entirely opposed to each other! Great points as usual, sir - having the patience to break down arguments as you do is most important, and we greatly appreciate your hard work!

[@nicobrits5111]

We moved to Canada 23 years ago. We will probably be always somewhat of outsiders. Our children are more Canadian than us they speak English with a Canadian accent etc. They haven’t been back to South Africa since 2012. They are not interested to even visit SA anymore. (The South Africa we left doesn’t exist anymore. It is almost like emigrating without changing your address a weird experience). I think our grand children will be fully Canadian like those living here for generations. The South Africans are not many so we don’t really form a South African community. I think people with bigger immigrant communities that can easily marry into that community will take much much longer to form part of the country they immigrated to.

[@michaelclark2458]

Ben Shapiro: “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.” ‭‭1 John‬ ‭2‬:‭22‬-‭23‬ “For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: for he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.” ‭‭2 John‬ ‭1‬:‭7‬, ‭9‬-‭11‬ ‭

[@jackblack496]

Why yes, he is Jewish

[@josephalbatross5961]

So Trump is a liar and the antichrist then? My point is that you are shoehorning in a premise : "if not a Christian, then wrong" and that is neither sufficient for truth nor necessary for truth on a particular topic like "What is a nation?"

[@misswinnie4.8]

How quickly we forget The Bush Family in 3 generations: 1-Barbara Bush (W's mother & HW's wife) believed & wrote that abortion wasn't "murder" bc the soul didn't actually enter the human body until the exact moment of birth. Barbara Bush (wife to George HW) wrote & believed that abortion should not be a presidential issue but rather an issue for the pregnant mother, her spouse/partner & the physician. 2-George W and his wife Laura raised 2 pro-choice & pro-same sex marriage supportive daughters. >The week POTUS George W was set to be sworn in as the new POTUS, his wife Laura Bush told Katie Couric that Roe should NOT be reversed due to medical & "other issues." While on her nationwide book tour (during the radically pro-abortion Obama era) Laura reiterated her support for abortion and her support for same sex marriage. She revealed that she discouraged the RNC from making same sex marriage an issue at the convention to re-elect her husband for his 2nd term. >Lest we forget: George W was the 1st POTUS to appoint an openly homosexual cabinet member. He also hand picked/ selected Dick Cheney as his VP, who was publicly pro-same sex marriage, pro homosexuals in the military and pro-abortion. At that time, 1 of Cheney's 2 daughters was also lesbian 3-In 2017 Barbara, the daughter of Laura & George W, raised over $500,000 for the Fort Worth Texas Planned Parenthood by serving as their annual fundraiser's guest speaker.

[@Christisking-b7d]

I’m absolutely not surprised Shapiro doesn’t get it

[@marcyoverby3817]

HI JON..PRAYING FOR TRUMP SALVATION..I THINK SOMETHING CHANGED WHEN TRUMP GOT SHOT. AND THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE ARE SAYING THE SAME THING..I WAS HAPPY TO HEAR THAT..AND PRAYING FOR TRUMP....THANKS FOR POSTING..

[@TimMiller-n7k]

How many Indians are going to move here in the next 4 years and become part of that ‘people’?

[@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast]

There’s definitely a scale at which assimilation becomes impossible.

[@stvnhr]

How do you spell the macentire person you mentioned?

[@TimMiller-n7k]

@@stvnhr Auron Macintyre. He’s a good dude.

[@Ransetsu]

​@@TimMiller-n7kI love his show. If you like John, you'll love it too.

[@JDJ616]

Michael Knowles is outstanding. Clearly the smartest and most interesting guy at the Daily Wire. I stopped listening to Shapiro a year ago.

[@conceptualclarity]

Matt Walsh is also terrific and in my area they canceled him for another hour of Ben. I did not play along

[@ZephaniahL]

Vance is like if Kevin Williamson were brave and did not hate himself.

[@conceptualclarity]

@@ZephaniahL I have not heard much about Mr Williamson lately I suppose it is because he seems to be his own worst enemy with his self incriminating writings

[@spudruckus7297]

The more I see that clip of Ben and think on it, the more angry I get. He knows exactly what he is doing and he believes that a shared collective identity for us, is against his groups best interests because he knows if that is achieved we will effectively advocate for our peoples best interests, not theirs. THAT is why he is fumbling and obfuscating.

[@Sara-hy1ru]

Facts 👆

[@MansterBear]

Ben has a problem with “tribal identity” and “in group preference”? That’s ironic coming from him. And “judeo-Christian” is a nonsense term. It’s just Christian values.

[@MisfitTina]

Really wasn’t Jesus a Jew?

[@nicobrits5111]

There is a big difference between Judaism and Christianity. Orthodox Judaism believes much like the Pharisees in the gospels and are focused inward. Christianity is focused outward more going into all nations making disciples.

[@spudruckus7297]

He's not that dim... He's that subversive and malicious.

[@Eric_Lichtenberg]

I think what you are highlighting about Shapiro also accounts for the difference between him and Tucker.

[@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast]

100%

[@NickDeranleau]

Love the show! What are your thoughts on Matt Walsh?

[@asmitmehra7373]

Dear Jon, I was in 100% agreement with you Until the last 15 mins. When In the Kingdom of our Savior God , citizenship depends upon faith in Christ, he doesn't take into account lineage, the faith of the parents etc. Then in the United States ( god's blessed land, ) it would be wrong to say ,I believe, to LEGAL new or aspiring citizens that you're not really American, you don't have shared experiences ,roots etc. EVEN when they are committing themselves our laws , history, family values , freedom & liberty AND especially the protestant CHRISTIAN faith . Look on the believing ones as JESUS looks on us when we enter despite our past. BTW I agree with you on Ben AND please do edify me if you think I am wrong. God bless ya.😊

[@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast]

@@asmitmehra7373 Thanks for the kind words. Have you watched my episode “What is a Nation” where I go into detail about what the Bible teaches about nationality?

[@misswinnie4.8]

JD Vance received those talking points from Robert Barnes. Interesting that you would think he was listening to your podcast.🤔

[@aribbonatatime]

Ben has somehow become the spokesman for the right. Too bad.

[@misswinnie4.8]

Why don't you run for political office Jon? Anything from library board to town council.

[@theresa42213]

l'd like to see Ben with Carl too! l couldn't ever get into Ben. He was _sooooo_ anti Trump, and Neo con ...ish for me. Hope your little girl is doing well, and that you, and Daniel are in glee over it. :D

[@DZ-Jn1516]

Agree with Jon. Before and around Obergefell, Ben Shapiro did mention a few times on his podcast that there was state sanctioned marriage and God sanctioned marriage and that a state could define marriage differently than God (paraphrasing Ben Shapiro). However, in the recent past around 2019 or so(?), Ben Shapiro appears to have done a 180 and appears to now hold that state sanctioned marriage should be between a man and a woman.

[@zach.shepard]

Totally agree on Ben Shapiro. What are your thoughts on Michael Knowles?

[@nathanwatson1915]

Hmm ... people born in Puerto Rico are American citizens out of the gate.

[@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast]

@@nathanwatson1915 True, it’s a territory. Probably should have used the DR as my example instead. This demonstrates part of the problem of American citizenship. It can be so broad.

[@jsigur157]

I found the beginning of the speech boring since I more less knew what happened but after that it was fine

[@stvnhr]

How do you spell the macentire person you mentioned?

[@HandlesAreStupid2024]

www.youtube.com/@AuronMacIntyre

[@conceptualclarity]

Absolutely no relation to Reba!😆

[@marymack1]

Billy Graham...check out a book called Billy Graham and His Friends by Dr. Cathy Burns.

[@HotelCharliHill]

Yeah, hope that’s not true…. Eerie

[@misswinnie4.8]

Harmeet Dillion has given the same "Sikh blessing/prayer" at multiple RNC conventions/events yet this is the 1st time Christian KZbinrs have chosen to comment. Why is that? JD Vance's Hindu wife chose not to participate in Franklin Graham's prayer but Christian KZbinrs have ignored it...why?

[@conceptualclarity]

36:47 ironic because I believe that the strong tribal in-group preference of Democrat-leaning people in the seminary culture is why we have such a bad evangelical Intelligentsia and why we have dreadful BigEva, which I see as the fruit of the evangelical intelligensia. It's why we have the curious and malignant situation that the evangelical intelligentsia and BigEva are hostile toward the majority of their grassroots evangelical constituency.

[@designbuild7128]

I must be dense on this topical battle (or at least out of the loop). I guess I will be watching Jon's documentaries to see if I can suss out the nuance of this discussion. To me, without overreading scholarly works of compare and contrast which seems to be throwing out the baby with the bathwater; I would say the issue is 'the wrong ideas' not just the concept of the 'proposition'. The right is often succumbed to new arguments by their ideological foes (and I would argue unaware). If you want to say that some of what our nation's history and makeup is not propositional, that would be fair. Or that God's precepts are not a proposition since an eternal God ordered them, we didn't invent them, that is fine. But there are ideas in how we govern and culturally how we live, even as families. They are inculcated in us by example and by training as we live in our family, in our town, etc. Jon's example of a description of what people eat is how we describe families, but not how moral they are or if they should change. Do you leave families, nations, churches to their devices? Is populism the answer? What is the argument other than conservatives sound like liberals on TV? Vance's wife may be buried in Kentucky because her parents forsook their homeland and she chose to live in Kentucky and be a Vance. That isn't hard to argue against that women on MSDNC network. Last. There is much to critique Shapiro on with his version of ideas leading to libertarianism. And maybe he needs to be pressed on his question in light of his past statements, but I think on this topic he wasn't out of line in the framing, just perhaps in the details.

[@barbaraasabre4663]

J.D.'s wife's family are not Vances😳

[@jsigur157]

There are many of us supporters that are not Christians but have a belief in God so of course, that would be a problem if Christianity took over the platform. We certainly respect the fact that the white race was forced to accept the Christian religion with the Roman invasion and now love it. I personally have never been impressed with the idea that God anointed one tiny place on the planet with "the truth". I personally think Jesus, if he existed at all, was an enlightened man whose deeds were exploited by Paul and the rest for personal reasons. Vance is great and represents the New Conservative point of view whom I hope takes over the party Evangelicals got behind Reagan as I recall as they stood against Carter so they were already on the right's side in the era you refer to

[@geno4god]

23:10 Heh, USSR made TV set 🤣

[@MansterBear]

Ben mentioned Vox Day by name? Was this recently? I’ve listened to Vox for years off and on. AFAIK Ben always refused to say his name or acknowledge he exists lol

[@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast]

In his book from I think 2017

[@cindyjones920]

Praying that everyone who witnessed this shooting, including Donald Trymp wl become devoted followers of JESUS christ.

[@jackblack496]

Jon, please stop dancing around the truth. White, Christian, super majority nation and well knowing the Jew and their role in the diaspora they desire for this identity and once great Nation (race,ethnicity, people)

[@billybob-wx2re]

Jon, I'm sitting here listening, enjoying your podcast, then all of a sudden I hear some harpy from MSM talk about "white males" and you kill my mood. Way to end the show. Thanks buddy

[@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast]

Anytime 😎

[@jincy5849]

Are we thankful he’s yoking up with pagan Sikh gods? She is definitely going to have an influence. Galatians 1.

[@misswinnie4.8]

>BTW Harmeet gave the same "blessing" in 2020 >JD Vance only recently converted from atheism to Catholicism. >Nimrata Randhawa never renounced her religion when she married her Caucasian husband

[@MisfitTina]

Yeah I was thoroughly disgusted when I saw that prayer. I can’t support any of these people.

[@nathanwatson1915]

Trump's outlook will best improve with a stint in federal pen.

[@georgeakoto6589]

Sorry, i love your input. But I agree with ben shapiro. America is primarily home but its also an idea. But its not just some abstract idea but very practical which gave birth to the best nation on earth, thus USA. Trump supoorts same sex marriage and so as jd vance

[@scottmcloughlin4371]

Do not waste time "being logical with words." You have no idea WHO is FUNDING people like Ben Shapiro and WHY. Here is WHO and WHAT is going on all around you: "Wife Of Notorious Never Trumper Max Boot Indicted In Foreign Spying Scheme." Look that up and read all about this. That little "story" is not an isolated case. Nope.

[@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast]

I don’t understand the argument. America is an idea, but it’s not abstract, but it’s also a land?

[@scottmcloughlin4371]

@@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast Most (even well meaning) Americans do not have relevant maps, calendars and institutional histories in their heads. We are witnessing some kind of GOP attempt at purging (some? enough? all?) Neocons from our massive and corrupt foreign policy apparatus while reshaping a populist nationalist GOP (those two efforts go together). But most Americans don't understand WHO Neocons are or WHAT Neocons did (do). Here. Not just "over there." Just repeating phrases like "New Right" constantly in mass media immediately confuses all these categories in (most) American minds (the ones who are even paying attention). The working vocabulary and histories of concrete institutions takes too much serious and sustained focus to get a grip on. NYT Neocon Max Boot's wife was just indicted on espionage charges: "Wife Of Notorious Never Trumper Max Boot Indicted In Foreign Spying Scheme." Most Americans don't understand that this is not about fitting words together like jigsaw puzzle pieces. In any case, this GOP effort is not going to be easy, clean, pretty or "logical." It might be useful to pull back some curtains on who are FUNDING many of these sock puppets (paid promoters, etc.) manically babbling in our legacy mass media. Too many honest Americans are wasting time taking their words seriously. Stay strong.

[@HonestlyNow4Real]

I'm sorry, I think i''m just sort of feeling the gentle breeze of a tempest in a teapot, and it's so mild that I can hardly tell which direction it's blowing. (Metaphorically speaking, here...) There seems to be a strong push to marginalize Ben Shapiro (Shapiroo to ol' AD). But nary a hiccup regarding Trump or Vance. I don't count any of the three as problematic. They all seem to be acceptable partners toward the end of bringing America to a more Christian society - like the way the nation was founded, but better. Except that Ben is specifically Jewish - and if that's the issue, then Trump and Vance are probably not to be promoted either, because their Christianity is pretty weak - especially Trump's. I see clearly that Shapiro's religiosity is as intellectualized as his politics. But he has no animosity for stronger Christian families, stronger Christian churches, and greater Christian influence on our political institutions. In fact, he expressly advocates for all of that. He knows Christianity is part of the foundation of America, and encourages a return to these roots without reservation. Seems to me like a God-given resource and ally - why would we spend so much time and effort bashing him? Jon and a few others in the CN circles seem to despise Ben while lionizing Trump and JD (and Tucker and so on). If I'm listening well enough, you seem to be saying that homogeneity is the key. But we can't achieve full homogeneity even within the elements of Christendom that are most actively CN-ing. Some baptize babies, others do it right 😀, but we don't need homogeneity in order to be the broader family of God in every city and every county of every state of these United States. Diversity is not "our strength," as the full-on multiculturalists would contend, but our unity cannot be based solely on homogeneity - there will have to be unifying forces beyond our lineage and traditions if we're going to even exist in local churches together. Among our churches, it's ideas expressed as creeds: the Nicene Creed, the Apostles' Creed, the Westminster Catechism, and the 1689 London Confession. Ideas that bind us together, right? Our civic bonds need to be tighter, but they will always be looser at each level of distance from our family properties. And the farther out one goes, those bonds will be defined more and more on shared propositions and principles, won't they? Again, it just doesn't seem like any of us can be far off from the others - from Ben to JD to Tucker to Trump. At each level of civic life, then, there will be ideas that connect us, more or less tightly. And in the resulting "marketplace of ideas," we'll be there (I hope!), pitching the precepts of Scripture and leading the way (I pray!) toward the restoration of conservative, American principles as the core around which we build/rebuild our cities, counties, states, and nations. And those ideas will grow into new traditions and institutions, Lord willing, drawing us more and more into one big American family. Don't ya think? Can we as Jesus people be the leaders in rebuilding a workable fabric, over and against the efforts of the new pagans who do hate the revealed Word of God?

[@conceptualclarity]

What has JD Vance said on marriage definition?

[@NeanderthalWoman-ou8ev]

I like to get my news from Shapiro, especially legal analysis. He has a good research team. And I'm not going to stop listening to him. Good grief. That said, of course he has blind spots. He is super gullible about anything that sounds science-y. He's an evolutionist, owns an electric car, and he fell for the vaccines so hard. He still has not dived into the scandal of vax injuries that I'm aware of. This is because he is, essentially, a materialist atheist with Jewish trimmings. I don't think he conceives of God as a personal being. I once heard him describe what he thinks happens after death, which revealed him to be basically Hermetic in his view of God and man. Shapiro once said, "I have very few feelings," which I thought was funny and also true. He lives so much in his head, he doesn't really understand what most people's feelings are like and that they are important facts in themselves. He realizes that people get emotional, but he doesn't realize that emotions and imagination are also organs of perception of reality. He's a pure rationalist. Therefore it makes perfect sense that he doesn't understand the emotional and loyalty component of what it means to have a home in a nation with stories passed down. No wonder the propositional nation idea appeals to him so much.

[@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast]

I get it. I don't think he's a pure rationalist though. He's very emotional when it comes to Israel.

[@NeanderthalWoman-ou8ev]

@@ConversationsThatMatterpodcast Haha yes. He does understand anger/indignation . I mean, he loves his family, don't get me wrong, but I get the impression he thinks rationalism is the basis of the universe.