“You PREACHY vegans turn me off” (Debate gets interesting)

[@JoeyCarbstrong]

What did you think of this debate? Did you watch it to the end? How would you have handled this discussion? Did you agree, or disagree with the vegan position? Support my work here: www.joeycarbstrong.com/supportourwork 🌱 For free help going vegan 👉🏻 Start here: bit.ly/JoeyVegan22 Download my UK Vegan pamphlet here: www.joeycarbstrong.com/downloads

[@housevibez8828]

Well handled bro, and a nice ending with the guy coming up to you and the guy with the dogs. I agree with the vegan position, always did. Even back when i was eating "meat" over 7 years ago, i would have still agreed with the vegan position. How can one argue against protecting helpless animals that dont want to die. Who am i to decide that the chicken must die for me to eat......

[@marcusserrao]

It's was a good debate and you can see how they were trying to use logic to poke holes in your argument, yet kept painting themselves in a corner bc there was no moral consistency. The guy got heated at the end trying to say your morals to not want to kill anyone are not the morals of other humans. Ok 👌 the AV approach is to put the person in the victims shoes on the chopping block but that would require some level of empathy or even sympathy to the victims which these guys clearly had none. Good effort Joey. At least they will leave thinking about the conflict in their head now. Hey how do you know when someone has no legit argument for abusing animals? They talk about plants 😂

[@sunnyvictor1]

I disagree with vegan position. Vegans are providing alternative food but that alternative option also kills a living thing. If there is an alternative food which is obtained from a non living thing ,then the vegan position will be correct.

[@sunnyvictor1]

Being non sentient doesn’t prove that plants don’t experience. Vegan is just choosing an option which is less pain to human eyes. The debate should be about are humans being cruel for killing living things for just food. vegans does selective killing of living things and they question morality of meat eaters

[@Trolloftruth]

@@marcusserrao aaand both kids had animal products right after... Consistent means what?? Only important to vegans I guess I pet my dog while eating a steak...consistently

[@religionofpeace782]

"You are putting me in a awkward situation" No dude. Your actions are putting the animals in much more awkward situations than you can ever imagine. You feel threatened by just a war of words but put a knife across the animals throats and expect they don't feel awkward? What are you?

[@shreyaaashree]

i think awkward probably isn't the right word here tho. I get what you mean and I support you but I think pain or harm is probably the right fit here isn't?

[@pokemonitishere202]

Lmao the dude with the glassess made a simple yes or no question more complicated than Quantum mechanics

[@LichteDunkelheit]

Was thinking the same thing xD

[@PercivalBlakeney]

2:46 "You're putting me in an awkward position." He already was in an awkward position… he just became aware of it. 😌

[@Trolloftruth]

What??? No quotes from famous dead people?? You're coming around!! Next you will become normal and consume animals!! Baby steps

[@PercivalBlakeney]

@@Trolloftruth Baity, you could try coming up with some famous quotes that corroborate your side of the argument. The problem I have is that the only ones I can find come from dictators, plantation owners, mass murderers and serial killers. … but please feel free to prove me wrong. Your move Kasparov. 😶

[@Trolloftruth]

@@PercivalBlakeney the "problem" (your words not mine) is exactly what you say...thats the only quotes you "choose" Many, many people famous or not famous...have several positive quotes about animal consumption...LOTS MORE THAN DEAD ASSASSINATED losers...you know this Aaand you seem to either watch waaaaay too much news television...or have a house full of "as seen on TV items" Maybe both??!!??

[@TheRoarWithin]

Another plant argument. Always seems to come up when people are getting desperate for an excuse.

[@VeganhunterD]

So if Aliens say you lack a certain organ they have which lets them experience xxxxxx which they value like you value sentience and so therefore they think its ok to eat you would you be ok with it? Because its the same morals as vegans have.

[@monkeybounceereborn4909]

@@rondarkman. tough guy 🤣 good luck mate

[@monkeybounceereborn4909]

@@rondarkman. sure mate

[@Andyyybeeeee]

The other guy should have stayed quiet, would have been much much better than bringing up plant abuse... 🤣

[@blublubblubblu]

At least he realised it was stupid 😂

[@VeganhunterD]

So if Aliens say you lack a certain organ they have which lets them experience xxxxxx which they value like you value sentience and so therefore they think its ok to eat you would you be ok with it? Because its the same morals as vegans have.

[@trollsarebad1541]

It makes these debates more intreesting.

[@GametimeUKyo]

When joey said "you have eyes and a brain" etc I thought to myself "fucking hell lad you're being generous there" haha.

[@snowpz]

im shocked how many people don't understand you need a CNS to feel pain... it's basic science lmao

[@conniekorcsmaros3499]

Good job once again Joey!! 💗

[@30daymissionman]

Finally someone who truly cares about plant welfare. It’s good that he can share his concerns with Joey *sarcasm*

[@agnosticpanda6655]

This guy used heavy mental gymnastics trying to defend a position that was completely indefensible. The ending was wholesome though!

[@DrMontague]

Those dogs are privately owned. If you were to kill and eat them then you are damaging someone private property.Therefore you would be breaking the law

[@nigelpearson7228]

@@DrMontague Are Livestock privately owned?

[@DrMontague]

@@nigelpearson7228 It depends on the economic model e.g private public, nationalized but in essence we can say live stock is owned in some economic form..

[@KL-yc9xy]

🍗🍖

[@vietnamd0820]

I’m glad I made it to the end…I was thinking of stopping at the halfway point because the debate was getting frustrating to listen to

[@spliter227]

Imagine if someone was preaching to you about eating plants, you'd laugh. But when they preach to you about eating animals it bothers you, dude that's just your guilt/defense mechanism kicking in

[@VeganhunterD]

So if it doesnt bother you it makes it right?

[@OptimisticApocalypse]

@@VeganhunterD the exception isn’t the rule.

[@starcatcher3691]

I am a long time vegan and animal rights supporter. I remember thinking as a kid "Of course they treat them well" and "They were bred for that". I do not know why I thought the second idea made it OK. I don't think that anymore. Bred or not they are individuals and they suffer.

[@jaws8090]

And they're food. Get over it and grow some balls.

[@veganninja5886]

You should have mentioned that plants dont have pain receptors and reacting to stimuli isnt sentient. Focus on the rights violation aspect of it.

[@vek0vek0]

Even if we take plants into consideration, vegan is still many many times less plants needed for feeding the animals. Veganism is not the end goal ( which would be more like breatharian - living from sunlight radiation light, not currently feasible with 2 DNA activated strands) but a step in the right direction towards a lot less suffering caused and a lot happier life and existance.

[@sunnyvictor1]

But then vegan might be killing a plant who wanted to live for many more years

[@loading2074]

Bro breatharianism is bullshit. Veganism is the goal, because it’s the best we can do. We have to eat something.

[@Stevelives13]

@@sunnyvictor1 Plants are nothing but cellulose, they dont have the ability to want or feel or know anything.

[@ashezza]

@@sunnyvictor1 look at this guy his plants talk to him

[@sunnyvictor1]

@@ashezza animals also don't talk

[@Masilya111]

It's sad how they dont want to grant *anything* for non human animals.. to the point of bringing up plants 😑. Just fucking sad

[@alekhinesgun9997]

It's sad how people assume animals have sentience but don't do the same for plants. How does that work?

[@xnoreq]

@@alekhinesgun9997 Because it's a well known fact. Plants don't have the ability to subjectively experience feelings because they lack the neurophysiology. And not every animal is sentient either.

[@alekhinesgun9997]

@@xnoreq So you've proved where consciousness resides? Better publish that ASAP

[@xnoreq]

@@alekhinesgun9997 Me? No. Neurologists have been saying for decades that it's in the brain and this is obviously true: just by altering your brain chemistry we can knock you unconscious. By altering your brain we can change the way you feel, behave, change your memories, your emotions, your skills etc. - your entire personality. Heck, there are even studies with split brain patients that have developed separate, distinct personalities. There's also the nervous system that is well known to be responsible for coordinating actions and sensory information. Any more basic scientific knowledge you're completely ignorant about?

[@alekhinesgun9997]

@@xnoreqYea no shit it's the brain, what part? How do you know plants don't have similar? Answer: You have no idea

[@gotatochigs314]

Good discussion. One suggestion for a response to the plant argument: ask them if they’ve ever been sedated for a medical procedure, and ask them if they suffered physically or emotionally _during_ the procedure. If they didn’t then you can point out that the things necessary for experiencing suffering are a brain, a nervous system, and being awake. Suffering doesn’t occur while in a vegetative state

[@sunnyvictor1]

eat plants but don’t teach morality by putting limitations. If some one wants to lecture about morality, then the point should be “don’t kill anything for food.” Putting the Sentient parameter as the ultimate moral argument is idiotic. killing the animals that i can see suffering is immoral, while killing the plants is moral as i cannot see it’s suffering. in both the cases victim dies.

[@Plixion]

@@sunnyvictor1 Plants cannot be considered victims if there's no one in there experiencing the world, suffering, well being, emotions...

[@PureExile]

Those things may be necessary for an animal to experience suffering but they are completely irrelevant to plants. Do you really think that an alien from another planet must have what you would call a brain and a central nervous system and it must be awake otherwise it can't suffer? Wtf?

[@gotatochigs314]

@@PureExile I wouldn’t count out the possibility that there are other forms of suffering, but right now we don’t have any evidence that plants can consider anything undesirable. If you’re implying that any reaction to stimuli is evidence of the ability to suffer, then sitting on a creaky chair would also be immoral because the chair is reacting to the weight on it. As for aliens, if they’re able to communicate to us that they consider something to be undesirable, that would be enough to convince me of other forms of suffering, regardless of what they’re made of. I’m just using our current best evidence. As far as I can see, the strongest form of your argument would be, “Assuming plants can suffer and are trying to tell us, how would we know?” That question can be asked about anything, including the creaky chair. Theoretically, we don’t know whether the chair suffers, but we do know that it doesn’t have a mechanism for suffering that’s comparable to beings that have a brain and a nervous system. And I can’t think of any reasons why we would interpret its creaks as a cry for help. The same reasoning applies to plants when we chop them down/burn them/eat them/etc. If the claim then would be that the relevant difference is that plants are alive and chairs aren’t, then I’d point out again that being alive and having the ability to suffer are separate things, which is one of the points of the sedation analogy

[@anti-ethniccleansing465]

@@sunnyvictor1 ^ pro-meat troll/ai

[@pegbuckner5074]

So many inconsistent humans out there. Meat eaters try so hard to reach for excuses to justify their abuse. Thank you, Joey for opening so many eyes and MINDS!! Love you! 💚🌱

[@Trolloftruth]

Inconsistent??? What does that mean? How does Inconsistent factor IN MY WORLD??

[@pegbuckner5074]

@@Trolloftruth you’ll have to watch the video.

[@Trolloftruth]

@@pegbuckner5074 I've watched video...I'm good

[@DrMontague]

Want to try me for an argument?! I know vegans who buy tins of meat for their dogs and cats. Why a Vegan Regimen Is Dangerous for Dogs Designing a meat-free food for dogs that contains all of the necessary nutrients for them to thrive is extremely difficult, even for licensed veterinary nutritionists, says Tufts. While the canine digestive system can get nutrition from plant matter, it has a much easier time processing animal matter. Fruits and vegetables are great for providing vitamins and antioxidants that can help your dog thrive, but they lack the necessary amounts of fat and protein. Proteins derived from animal products, like collagen, elastin and keratin - all of which are vital for healthy skin, muscles and joints - are difficult, if not impossible, to derive from a vegan diet. The bottom line is that, unless it's done very carefully under the guidance and supervision of a licensed veterinary nutritionist, making your dog vegan could lead to severe health complications and malnutrition. Therefore have your dogs and cats destroyed! Can cats be vegan? The short answer is no, cats can’t be vegetarian or vegan. Cats are obligate carnivores which means they need meat in their diet. With the rise in plant-based diets in the UK, many have started to consider altering their pet’s diet too. This can be for numerous reasons, such as environment, health or ethical reasons. However, owners must be aware of the risks involved before thinking about feeding their pet a vegetarian or vegan diet. Why do cats need meat? Caroline Reay - Head of Veterinary Services at Blue Cross wearing Blue Cross uniform This advice has been approved by our Head of Veterinary Services at Blue Cross The problem here is that cats requires a much higher level of protein than dogs and humans, and their ability to digest and use carbohydrates is much lower. Additionally, taurine, an amino acid, which are the building blocks of protein, is an essential part of a cat’s diet. Taurine can only be found in animal-based proteins and it’s really important for their eyesight, growth and immune system. This means that cats need to eat meat to get important nutrients that aren’t available in vegetables. Cats can become very ill if given a plant-based diet. Your cat needs a proper nutritionally balanced diet throughout their life. Pre-existing conditions, such as heart and kidney disease, will often need a special diet recommended by a vet and a vegan or vegetarian diet can make matters worse. Vegans have your cats put to sleep!

[@DrMontague]

@Veggie Burger Why a Vegan Regimen Is Dangerous for Dogs Designing a meat-free food for dogs that contains all of the necessary nutrients for them to thrive is extremely difficult, even for licensed veterinary nutritionists, says Tufts. While the canine digestive system can get nutrition from plant matter, it has a much easier time processing animal matter. Fruits and vegetables are great for providing vitamins and antioxidants that can help your dog thrive, but they lack the necessary amounts of fat and protein. Proteins derived from animal products, like collagen, elastin and keratin - all of which are vital for healthy skin, muscles and joints - are difficult, if not impossible, to derive from a vegan diet. The bottom line is that, unless it's done very carefully under the guidance and supervision of a licensed veterinary nutritionist, making your dog vegan could lead to severe health complications and malnutrition. Can cats be vegan? The short answer is no, cats can’t be vegetarian or vegan. Cats are obligate carnivores which means they need meat in their diet. With the rise in plant-based diets in the UK, many have started to consider altering their pet’s diet too. This can be for numerous reasons, such as environment, health or ethical reasons. However, owners must be aware of the risks involved before thinking about feeding their pet a vegetarian or vegan diet. Why do cats need meat? Caroline Reay - Head of Veterinary Services at Blue Cross wearing Blue Cross uniform This advice has been approved by our Head of Veterinary Services at Blue Cross The problem here is that cats requires a much higher level of protein than dogs and humans, and their ability to digest and use carbohydrates is much lower. Additionally, taurine, an amino acid, which are the building blocks of protein, is an essential part of a cat’s diet. Taurine can only be found in animal-based proteins and it’s really important for their eyesight, growth and immune system. This means that cats need to eat meat to get important nutrients that aren’t available in vegetables. Cats can become very ill if given a plant-based diet. Your cat needs a proper nutritionally balanced diet throughout their life. Pre-existing conditions, such as heart and kidney disease, will often need a special diet recommended by a vet and a vegan or vegetarian diet can make matters worse. If you are still considering feeding your cat a vegan diet, please speak to your vet beforehand.

[@tarionp]

You did fantastic 👏👏🙏🙏

[@ladam9164]

The guy on the left needs a gold medal for mental gymnastics for sure. The social conditioning in society to try and defend this is so engrained it is scary. Great work Joey

[@alison9189]

You're incredible Joey ☺️

[@RogerHsu0]

Despite having faulty arguments, I actually think these guys were engaging in good faith. Regarding the guy on the left arguing that he is entitled to having a different moral framework, you should have simply asked him whether he thinks it's wrong to unnecessarily abuse animals. If he answers "yes", then his morals are in fact aligned with yours and he needs to face his moral inconsistency. If he answers "no", then he should have no problem with you abusing and chopping up a stray dog. Regarding the guy on the right arguing that plants might be sentient, you should have asked him whether he'd be more comfortable slicing up a carrot or a dog. His inevitable answer would be the carrot in which case the follow-up question would be why.

[@blublubblubblu]

Sometimes you shouldnt back out too much, you are right. But in the discussion sometimes its very dificult.

[@Azarilh]

I agree with the second one. Not with the first cos Joey already tried but the guy replied that he doesn't need to be consistent. :|

[@x-latetv-x6816]

No you can be inconsistent and love your dog and not care about a cow.

[@harveyplantharvester1502]

The problem with claiming plants have feelings is that they themselves don't even believe in what they're saying. Debating them just makes it all seem like a valid point when they know it's just defensive nonsense "You're doing this bad thing so I'm allowed to do this bad thing." Just say plants don't have brains, central nervous systems or pain receptors, and move on.

[@36ELRIC]

@@x-latetv-x6816 Unfortunately that seems to be the world we live in

[@adamsanders3521]

Joey, I'd recommend giving people like this more time to express their thoughts fully without interjecting as much. I think If you allow them more time to explain their position fully they will be able to better understand and internalize their own position and find the inconsistencies themselves. Well done mate and thanks for all you do for the animals. Your activism is dynamic and has evolved so much. Peace ✌

[@stoopwoop]

I agree, I think the approach is a tad bit too aggressive. People are more willing to understand and change when they get time and space to evaluate their own thoughts. Otherwise they are just gonna be constantly on the defence.

[@harveyplantharvester1502]

No, interjecting needs to be done when something so idiotic is said.

[@stoopwoop]

@@harveyplantharvester1502 Why?

[@36ELRIC]

I think the problem is Joey already sees the inconsistency so has to say something. Remember this is not a sit down talk it is street activism you have to get your point across quick

[@lauratanln]

you need to interject when untruths, misconceptions, unverified beliefs are said to avoid meandering further and further from the main topic

[@housevibez8828]

They were lost bro, lost in the matrix.

[@jalosor6823]

It's interesting to see when people think that they live their lifes based on logic rather than their programming. The way you approach these people, holding a mirror in front of them, is how we make life better, not only for other animals but for humans as well. Thank you Joey for being so awesome.

[@chrisarmon1002]

I would say you’re correct with most people but I also believe Joey is irrational and illogical. For example he was dishonest trying to relate Beaslity. He also tries to relate moral equivalency to other mammals and I would say that’s not logical at all. I can go on and on. The issue with Joey is he wants people to buy into we have the care and value other mammals such as humans.

[@heyalun]

@@chrisarmon1002 I agree. He started off saying his position was morally neutral, which I was surprised to hear him admit. But then when the guy asked him for the basis of his morality, he completely ignored that and described his morality instead. I feel like most of this veganism is a religious belief without a religion. The intelligent vegans know this and always avoid it. Where they kill is appealing to our love for animals. That’s what they should stick to. Because when it goes to morality and reason, they fail against someone rational.

[@36ELRIC]

@@heyalun Of course It's not a religion we don't go to church have a bible or whatever ridiculous statement.

[@36ELRIC]

@@chrisarmon1002 He is not dishonest about bestiality sure humans are not getting pleasure from it but it is still sexual abuse. You should have moral equivalency between mammals if they can all feel stress, pain, joy etc. Sometimes he has to compare non human animals to humans because that is sometimes the only way people can see how ridiculous their argument to eat meat is

[@heyalun]

@@36ELRIC if you preach morality, it’s not that ridiculous. You have beliefs and a lifestyle based on a code of right and wrong. There’s not a whole lot more to some religions. If you get a charismatic leader and some holy writings, you’ll be there

[@fanisff]

You are the number one representative of the vegan movement, keep it Joey!

[@DJParamore]

@@rondarkman. are you part of the movement?

[@DJParamore]

@@rondarkman. offtt okay 🥴

[@GarudaLegends]

@@rondarkman. yep. vegans are extremely gullible and cant think for themselves

[@discursion]

I think Ed is doing a great job too.

[@ukqwerty999]

I think people argue the meat side so vehemently because they can't be bothered to think about the cruelty with a level of compassion that affects them, stick your head in the sand and carry on doing what you've always done because it's just easier ... and then try and justify it because humans want to be right so badly, for no apparent reason.

[@x-latetv-x6816]

I eat wild game because of the factory farming cruelty

[@x-latetv-x6816]

@Veggie Burger ok opinion man, il go ask the farmer for the wild hogs he shot to protect crops instead of dumping the body in the bin

[@x-latetv-x6816]

@Veggie Burger ok il ask the farmer for the dead hog in the field 👍

[@nicbongo]

The mistake here was focusing on the consistency arguement, too soon. Should have discussed more how and why morals change in a society. The guy was super defensive and was focusing on "my moral system". Questions related to "how did you develop your moral system?" This leads into the conditioning arguement, and that explains a lot of why people feel attached to their own behaviour, without being able to articulate why. By God, patience of a saint though. Great work Joey! X

[@36ELRIC]

There was never a mistake here, sometimes discussions can go down different paths. Joey did great

[@anti-ethniccleansing465]

@@36ELRIC Don’t be silly. Joey wasn’t acting with normal behavior in a conversation. He was being extremely dominant and that was indeed a mistake. He would cut them off _CONSTANTLY._ That will get anyone’s nerves, and rightly so. Someone being a 100% cheerleader to another person and saying that they are never wrong, like you have done here, is ridiculous, and doesn’t give any constructive feedback to serve the cause better.

[@36ELRIC]

@@anti-ethniccleansing465 No I disagree that he was interrupting that much anyway, not that it would have made much difference with what the guy was saying. The thing is Joey is 100% right if there was an argument for eating meat then you would simply agree with it but there is not in our current situation

[@TheAndyVegan]

Those two guys made my head spin, but when the two dogs came in at the end, it brought me back to life. How freakin' adorable are those dogs!

[@Patrick-yc3tf]

That guy was riled up all because he thinks Veganism is about making others look bad.. it's never about him in the first place.

[@じゃみっと]

Two dorks speaking total nonsense, thinking they're smart. You handled them well, Joey!!

[@MrDefiance000]

These guys were making some incredibly lame excuses to justify disgusting behaviors.

[@dominikbalo7813]

This is my indulgence when I loose my patience with people talking veganism. Thanks so much for your work Joey!

[@DrMontague]

Yet I know vegans who buy tins of meat for their dogs and cats!

[@reachtrita]

Some people, their belief is strong from society’s mainstream education and never think for themselves. They are smart but contradict themselves. But I’m glad they whole heartedly debated you with everything they had. It makes me believe that they will think about it some more for a long time. One day, they will get to the answer. Thanks Joey! Love you!

[@ryker4549]

Do you NOT understand that the ANIMALS CAN NOT SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES that's why there are ACTIVIST

[@vek0vek0]

So much twisting and twitching.IDK why it REMINDED me of how the devil would read a holy scripture trying to twist and manipulate the original meaning so it fits its wicked views.

[@ChaseAvior]

Ban Meat

[@redpillpusher]

wouldn't that be something ...unfortunately, I think we still have a mountain to conquer before that.

[@akihikosakime4598]

@@redpillpusher 2000 everset my friend, you need tho change the world mentality, dont ban meat, do what you want for yourself, let the other be, thei will chose temself my little sheep UwU

[@x-latetv-x6816]

Ban vegans😉

[@annoyingbutmorallyconsistent]

@@akihikosakime4598 What does that even say? Are you trying to say, "live and let live"? Because that's what we're saying - people need to quit filtering their nutrients through animals.

[@LisaCooper-thevegan-123]

Chase Avior, Agreed!👌👍👏😊♥️

[@Xero1of1]

I found this on FB and I felt like seeing the whole argument. You say that plants aren't 'subjects'. Like they don't feel pain or experience the world in the same way animals do. I think you're lacking in knowledge here. Trees communicate with all the plants around them through the ground. They share their resources, they warn other nearby plants if a predator is near or if damage is being done. Plants can trigger specific defenses against invasive insects and the like. We believe that plants are capable of telling us their condition via signals and sounds. Whether there's not enough light, too much light, too much acidity or alkalinity in the soil, etc. Plants, when actively being damaged can 'scream' in a way. It's a specific response to trauma. The issue is that we, as humans, are incapable of hearing or understanding these signals. Our ignorance of the pain, feelings and communication of plants does not mean it does not exist. We raise plants to be killed. We then eat the carcasses of those dead plants. It's the same thing with animals, the only difference is that we can more easily understand the signals of animals. "There is no subject inside of a plant". This is ignorance. You can't know this, but it allows you to kill plants without regard. Just because it's not a 'subject' that we can't understand, as an animal, doesn't mean that it's not there. You're using your ignorance as a justification for the mass slaughter of living things that can feel pain, communicate with others, defend themselves and 'bleed'. Do you think a tree wants to be cut down? Your argument is that a tree can't 'want' anything... Hook up some sensors to a tree, analyze its behavior and then start cutting into it and watch the signals change. Make sure you have sensors on the roots of that tree and others nearby so you can see the reaction at the roots of not only the tree you're cutting, but also the trees around it. Veganism still requires the wholesale slaughter of other living beings. You feel good about it because plants don't have faces. Ignorance. Your arguments are bad. 12:17 "But we can say the same about plants." "No you can't." Uh... actually... we can. "You can test reactions to the environment..." What the hell do you think pain is? It's a reaction to the environment. "They behave in a way that is subjective"... so do plants. "How do I know that you're sentient right now?" Uh. You don't. You can infer sentience based upon reactions created by electrical signals, but you can't KNOW another human is sentient because you're not them. "You have eyes, a brain, mouth, heart..." Oh, so you only consider something to be sentient if it's like you? How wonderfully inclusive of you. I'd love for you to meet an alien one day that looks nothing like an animal here on earth but is more intelligent than you are. Humans are omnivores. We've been omnivores for millions of years. We need both plants and animals to survive healthily. If we could survive on plants alone, then why do most vegans have to take supplements? It's because they're not getting everything they need from plants. Why? Because humans need plants AND animals. And to be honest, I think we probably need animals more than plants. People on the carnivore diet are arguably healthier than those on a vegan diet. Those on vegan diets who develop severe health complications often find those health complications disappear once they've added meat back into their diet. I'm not saying we should be cruel to animals. I'm not saying we should be cruel to plants. Hell, some animals would have gone extinct if not for the fact that they're tasty. And so we raise them. We expand their populations. We feed them, water them, give them shelter. We try to keep them healthy. And then, once they've grown sufficiently, we kill them and eat them. We do the same for plants. We raise them. We expand their populations. We feed them, water them, give them shelter if they need it. We try to keep them healthy. And then, once they've grown sufficiently, we kill them and eat them. You're not better than me nor morally superior to me in any way because you're vegan. You're just a hypocrite putting one kind of life over another to excuse the slaughter of that 'lower' lifeform. At least I'm consistent.

[@iMykie]

Thank you to everyone in the comment section who sees Joey out in the wild and says a hello. It gives these videos like a pot of gold on the otherside of the rainbow. This one was pretty hard to watch, they both seem so smart... I just don't think they understand what we're fighting for.. humans these days are so far removed from nature that they don't know what life means, we just assume we're at a of top of some kind of food chain, but we don't fully understand the reality of this situation and we just let advertisements and lying governments to tell us how to live.. we're not a society anymore, this is no longer civil... this is stockholm syndrome

[@anti-ethniccleansing465]

That was so well stated. I absolutely love what you said, because it was nothing but the truth!

[@Riya-of6wj]

Joey thank you so much! I watch all your videos. I showed my partner your videos recently and he also went vegan. You’re making Australia and the rest of the world proud. Thank you on behalf of the animals!

[@redpillpusher]

4:25 slight criticism ...when you ask these people questions don't answer it for them ...make them answer it/verbalize it I just think that's important. I think you let him off the hook too easily. But don't get me wrong bro love your content ...just something I noticed.

[@breninaotearoa4152]

Yes on some occasions taking time is good. With this guy though there is a lot of jungle to cut through in a short time.

[@redpillpusher]

@@breninaotearoa4152 yah its a balancing act or the vid could have been an hour long 😝

[@kaleighandrews7538]

It’s just crazy how people will go to such lengths to defend eating animals. If he wants to defend eating animals because that’s what we did since our arrival. Then live in a cave with no technology , cook food on a fire, gather your veggies and fruits and no wearing modern day clothes. Then that would fall under that kids idea of consistency

[@jeffreylebowski4927]

When you are debating the sentience of plants you really should bring up the brain and nervous system that plants lack - it is a scientific fact that experiences happen in the brain through brain activity, so if plants dont have brains there is no hardware to experience anything with... - instead of appealing to their intuitive understanding of a dog being a "subject" but a carrot not...

[@VeganhunterD]

So if Aliens say you lack a certain organ they have which lets them experience xxxxxx which they value like you value sentience and so therefore they think its ok to eat you would you be ok with it? Because its the same morals as vegans have.

[@jeffreylebowski4927]

@@VeganhunterD Lol no, if aliens have MORE experience than humans due to an extra organ or larger brain or whatever, that does not give them the right to disregard our experience - plants however have NO experience. - its not like there are experiences outside of "sentience" that plants might have - if they had any experience we would call that sentience... The alien-human comparison you draw is alot like the human-animal comparison I and vegans draw. The aliens experience might be richer and more valuable but our experience is meaningful enough to deserve moral consideration just like animals too... - that ends though when you go far enough down in brainsize, with beings that have only a few neurons to control a certain muscle or plants that dont have a brain at all and cant have any experiences...

[@VeganhunterD]

@@jeffreylebowski4927 Of course you value your life. But what the aliens do is simply what you do with plants. They say you lack of something they have and therefore its ok to eat you. And even if plants were just a little sentient you would say but they still have less sentience than an animal or human. So in this example you are less sentient than the aliens because you lack of xxxxx. And when it comes to having a brain or not. Ever heard of the Blob? Its a lifeform which is able to do things scientists never thought would be possible without a brain. But the Blob proofed them wrong. So just the science to this date says something doesnt mean its the ultimate truth.

[@jeffreylebowski4927]

@@VeganhunterD Dude you arent even smart enough to understand your own analogy or basic things like having an experience... In your alien-human analogy we wouldnt be the plants to the aliens we would be like the animals in the human-animal situation and obviously vegans and me included argue FOR valuing animals and NOT killing them. - So for you to say that the vegan logic would have the aliens treat us like plants is just the complete opposite of the vegan logic - which would say "because humans have a meaningful experience and experience pain etc. you should NOT mistreat them". Obviously this doesnt apply to inanimate matter like rocks or to plants that cant experience anything. And your blob doesnt say otherwise, just because something can "do" something, deosnt mean it is sentient or is experiencing anything - stars produce all kinds of chemical elements during a super nova explosion but that doesnt mean stars are sentient, just because they "do" amazing things. It is amazing to see, how non vegan people like you cant see the difference between plants and animals but DO say that the difference between humans and animals is so huge that we can do whatever we want to animals, when the difference between plants and animals is orders of magnitues larger than the difference between animals and humans. You people are just stupid.... :/

[@harveyplantharvester1502]

I totally agree. I can't believe he didn't even mention that this time. No brain, no central nervous system, no pain receptors. Cut and dry facts, then just move on.

[@agataanzur7078]

Soo good to watch you destroying their every argument, they were really really trying to find justification for their actions, but could not find one :) :)

[@mattdonalds7007]

Since meat, dairy and eggs are subsidised by taxpayers, as taxpayers we have the right to complain about what's going on your plate. Our wallet our voice.

[@GarudaLegends]

vegans are mostly unemployed. you have no say in the matter.

[@mattdonalds7007]

@@GarudaLegends I call bullshit. Cite studies.

[@GarudaLegends]

@@mattdonalds7007 i also forgot to mention meat is the healthiest and nutritious food on the planet. another reason you have no say in the matter

[@x-latetv-x6816]

@@mattdonalds7007 you are allowed to complain, that is your human right.

[@mattdonalds7007]

@@x-latetv-x6816 sure, having evidence and logic to support my arguments sure doesn't hurt either. m.kzbin.info/www/bejne/nKO5qmSJn52ZZqM&feature=emb_title

[@wheninroamful]

This is exhausting; not putting blame on the meat eaters, and i like watching these sometimes, but this is just juvenile arguing. It's not about What the focus is, it's Who's right, both sides seem agitated and seemed to be going nowhere. Anyway, thanks Joey for being out there.

[@ladyaudrey9976]

Excellent work, as always. Love your videos. 💚💚💚💚.

[@kaleighandrews7538]

Plants don’t have a brain or neurological system to experience pain also plants can regenerate leaves, stems etc. animals and humans can’t. Animals shouldn’t be consumed for something as trivial as taste buds like Joey is saying.

[@elmabayliss1989]

Absolutely love this video! Hope they “figure it out” eventually 🙂🙏🏽💚

[@JB.zero.zero.1]

@@rondarkman. i'm just going to claim that you abuse children

[@davidgiardina5424]

"You're putting me in an awkward position" awwww - poor victimized human....

[@RENX5]

What he didn’t realize is that there’s a reason behind that discomfort, the desperate search in his brain for a counter argument. This kind of discomfort should be embraced and analyzed, that’s how I went vegan myself, dissecting every argument with evidence and common sense instead of immediately dismissing the odd position.

[@VEGANISTA269]

I’m going to take a shot every time the guy in the glasses repeats “thereof or therefore” The more agitated he gets the bouncier he gets😆 The mental gymnastics in order to attempt to justify his choice in the horrific slaughter of billions of sentient beings is mind boggling. All I had to hear was what went on in the dairy industry ONCE, and I went vegan…. 16 years ago. They just DON’T CARE.

[@marcusserrao]

People hate being wrong. I hated it too. And when you have an ace up your sleeve like vegans do, all animals suffer alike, then it's a bitter pill to swallow and argue against as the debate has already been lost. The second someone calls me an animal abuser I would concede bc how can I argue with the footage? These guys really don't like being wrong and will fight tooth and nail no matter how ridiculous or callous they sound

[@PerpetuallyAnnoyed]

I read this comment before I watched the video and I had to come back because I know what you mean now! Dude is quite bouncy 😂

[@VEGANISTA269]

@@PerpetuallyAnnoyed LOL! Right! He gets bouncier by the minute. Probably something he’d do when he was younger while being questioned by his parents. Sort of a defense mechanism, fight or fight, and as you see he QUICKLY bounced when the guy with the dogs interjected. 😆

[@VEGANISTA269]

@@marcusserrao 💚

[@freshairkaboom8171]

Being morally inconsistent is fine, but if it harms others, then even if you think the ones being harmed is not worth fretting over, someone can take your moral inconsistency and for the EXACT same reason harm someone you DO think is worth fretting over. Think about that.

[@x-latetv-x6816]

Nope not unless you want to forfeit yourself from the societal contract

[@x-latetv-x6816]

@Veggie Burger if you harm humans you will be dealt with by societal contract

[@x-latetv-x6816]

@Veggie Burger no not necessarily but it's all we have to protect us, ye are trying to get farm animals into the societal contract like cats and dogs so it's the only tool that can protect them

[@x-latetv-x6816]

@Veggie Burger get a fence, what are you on about

[@x-latetv-x6816]

@Veggie Burger oh like how you produce all the veggies yourself and don't pay a man to grow them for you

[@LouisGedo]

*Facts And Logic Trigger Carnist Excuse Makers Every Time*

[@Trolloftruth]

Consumption of animal products trigger vegans every time

[@LouisGedo]

@@Trolloftruth Substantiate that claim.

[@Trolloftruth]

@@LouisGedo you first...or...first let me get the animal product grease off my screen You got triggered...soooooooo 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 You prove my point...THANK YOU

[@LouisGedo]

@@Trolloftruth More unsubstantiated assertions by you, I see. Have you EVER made a claim that wasn't just pure unadulterated nonsense? 🤔 Somehow I doubt it.

[@Trolloftruth]

@@LouisGedo what? Hahaha

[@rainedyani8505]

Great work as always, but it’s actually NOT okay to agree to disagree when it comes to the Animal Holocaust.

[@soorajjp1847]

When it comes to alternatives for meat it's not necessary that you have to always go for lab grown meat or plant based like beyond meat burger. Just go with legumes, pulses, cereals, beans, rice, millet, nuts, green veggies, fruits etc. You can cook tons of other vegan dishes from all over the world. You just have to add some spices or flavorings/ sauces to enhance the flavor. Also technically if u avoid plant based meat or lab grown meat then whatever else u find as vegan food will be definitely cheap. Only the factory processed food tends to be priced higher. Things u get directly from plants are definitely cheap. Also plants are not sentient beings becoz they dont have a central nervous system and brain to proces pain. Also they dont have any of the organs like heart, liver, kidney which animals have. They just react to external stimuli. There is a difference between cutting a tomato and slashing the head of an animal

[@shubhamsarang4136]

Non Vegans keep coming up with new shit. Practicality, Cost, Nutrition, Incomplete Amino Acid Profile, Human Superiority...They never stop. Always have some new shitty agenda....

[@bluetinsel7099]

Well meat originally meant plants not flesh. Flesh later became known as meat, but originally plants were called meat and what people call meat 🍖🥩 today was originally called flesh. So not using the term flesh brings a disconnect for people. Genesis 1:29 *“And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.”* Genesis 9:4 *”But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.”* Both verses show the distinction of meat being plant and flesh coming from sentient beings with blood.

[@shubhamsarang4136]

@@bluetinsel7099 damn. Why isn't this spoken about more. The general consensus is that Christianity and Islam both view animals as just things put on earth for the use of man. Thats clearly a wrong view, atleast in the case of Christianity.

[@bluetinsel7099]

@@shubhamsarang4136 That is coming from Torah and Torah in Hebrew means Law and that is where Laws Of The Almighty Most High Creator are given. Many people go one verse up and say well you can eat anything moving, but in Hebrew it’s clear that it’s speaking of bugs 🐜 🐛 🕷 not animals and that was post flood when there would be swarms of bugs. It’s about the least harm possible, as for plants they are regenerative so a plant can be cut and still grow back, a sentient being who has blood in its body is not the same way.

[@shubhamsarang4136]

@@bluetinsel7099 Ah. I see.

[@royceashcroft]

That was a really excellent way to end it on a positive note! Great job Mr. Carbstrong!

[@veganm8918]

Here come the meat trolls. Every one of them buys all their meat from small farms. They know the farmer personally and know the animals are treated with loving kindness and get killed with love. And if there is some cruelty and environmental devastation none cares about anything other than themselves.

[@akihikosakime4598]

what is your age? 13? trolls, realy?

[@angelocarantino4803]

@@akihikosakime4598 he's right they always say this when they know they get grocery store factory farmed meat

[@x-latetv-x6816]

@@angelocarantino4803 wild game is where it's at.

[@angelocarantino4803]

@@x-latetv-x6816 pfffft. Yea murder it fresh that better 😅

[@x-latetv-x6816]

@@angelocarantino4803 better then the gas chamber, I'm sure you would agree

[@beeemo842]

Even if plants would be the same as animals, people who eat meat and other animal products still „kill“ more plants, because they are used to feed the animals.

[@DelBoy573]

It really is astonishing the lengths people will go to and the completely ridiculous positions they take just so they can continue abusing animals.

[@PerpetuallyAnnoyed]

They all suddenly become nutritionists and plants rights activists as soon as you mention you're vegan 🤔

[@Trolloftruth]

And we will always consume animal products

[@PerpetuallyAnnoyed]

@@Trolloftruth Cool. Not sure that's a badge of honor anyone would want to wear...But good for you.

[@Trolloftruth]

@@PerpetuallyAnnoyed I'm not sure buying and consuming animal products or vegan products have ever had "badge of honor" I only know I'm certainly happy with my decisions

[@DelBoy573]

@@Trolloftruth Are you happy with your choices because you just don’t care about animals or do you have an argument?

[@Jen-nr2kw]

Joey how do you keep going? You are amazing! Thank you so much for speaking out. X

[@robinwallace7097]

Joey, I think you'd be more effective if you let them finish their thought and come to the inconsistency themselves. I know it's hard since we've all heard the same reasoning over and over ... and over .... .... But they need to confront the disconnect in their own head. But thank you so much for what you do! 🤗😘

[@PiecefulKaos]

I think if someone brings up "how do you know plants aren't sentient but animals are", the simple answer is the lack of a central nervous system. Basically, I don't know (in a rigid, philosophical sense) if anyone outside myself has sentience. But I do know they exhibit similar behaviors to me and, importantly, the reasons others are sentient seem to be the same in me as well: we all have similar central nervous systems. Scientists have tested which parts of the brain do what. We know if certain parts of the brain or certain neurons in a region are dysfunctional, then a person may lose the ability to feel pain, process language, see, etc. In other animals, we see different but similar central nervous systems and neurons that seem to perform similar functions that line up with their behavior. A particularly strong form of evidence is if an animal chooses to seek out pain relief in the form of morphine or some other pain killer after some kind of physical trauma has been inflicted on them. Plants, by comparison, don't even have neurons, let alone a central nervous system. There is little reason to suspect they're sentient.

[@Stevelives13]

Without a brain to process signals its literally impossible for something to be sentient or conscious. Any reactions a plant has to environment is purely biological in the exact same way that our skin pigment reacts to sun exposure.

[@Essene_Awakening]

It’s always the same cognitive dissonance with all of their straw arguments. Just admit that you don’t care!

[@cynicalidealist11]

“Plants react to stimuli” - so is my phone as I’m typing this comment.

[@housevibez8828]

Who am i to decide that the chicken must die for me to eat....

[@Unmasking_Viandalisme]

The cats which I care for seem to have no such qualms.

[@DuelingPeaks]

@@Unmasking_ViandalismeI'd like to think you're a little more intelligent than your cats.

[@Unmasking_Viandalisme]

@@DuelingPeaks I've come to understand that my rejection of veganism classifies me as one of die Untermenschen & likely far less intelligent than a cat.. or pig.. cow.. chicken.. bee.. etc.

[@sarahdeshay1394]

Imagine getting “turned off” by something someone said all the while not getting “turned off” having a dead animal on the plate you are planning to eat off of.

[@davidiruya485]

I have been vegan for 5 years now. My girlfriend and some of my friends also turned vegan once they studied and looked deeper into the issue. My mother 62 yo is also vegan now. I wish everyone could have the chance to realize how important is to make this change. Thank you Joey, you are doing a great job. It's so refreshing to hear you talking and to see many people everyday finally questioning this disgraceful system. There is no excuse for not being vegan. 🌺

[@x-latetv-x6816]

More opinions

[@davidiruya485]

@@x-latetv-x6816 even your opinion cannot be a justification for killing. Opinion is what you think or feel about a certain issue. You should have the right to express it. Killing or support killing is a needless act of taking the life away from somebody else. If that's your opinion, you should not have the right to act accordingly.

[@x-latetv-x6816]

@@davidiruya485 thank God you're not in charge then

[@davidiruya485]

@@x-latetv-x6816 well, thank god soon vegans will be the majority. It's up to you if you decide to stay on the right side of the history or still ignorant.

[@x-latetv-x6816]

@Veggie Burger figure of speech, I'm atheist

[@kaleighandrews7538]

This kid is getting defensive which means he knows he’s wrong, like Joey could beat up that kid cause he’s vulnerable and should we just categorize him as a human. Also we’ve evolved and aren’t in need of living like cavemen and earlier ancestors.

[@chrisw7429]

Oh the old plants feel pain argument 😭

[@Stevelives13]

*Incorrect argument.

[@chrisw7429]

@@Stevelives13 ?

[@3dju]

Another great discussion Joey! Thank you for spreading the word!

[@VEGANISTA269]

“Plants tho. It’s expensive tho. They’re bred for that tho. Wild animals tho. I agree, the current system is horrible but…..” EXCUSITARIANS

[@Azarilh]

I'll steal this. Don't mind me.

[@VEGANISTA269]

@@Azarilh Sure, but the credit goes to Coleen Patrick Gudreau. She’s the first person I heard using the “excusitarian” over ten years ago. She’s an amazing vegan herself. 😊

[@Azarilh]

@@VEGANISTA269 Ooh i'll check her out!

[@Azarilh]

@@rondarkman. At least you are honest. Nothing to be proud to eat meat anyway.

[@Azarilh]

@@rondarkman. There is. Just like being a racist. But ofc a racist will not be ashamed of being a racist. Ble We live in a susiety.

[@sacnan]

Did i hear it right @16:42 where he said to Joey that being morally inconsistent would be damaging in real world. While he was the one just seconds before advocating for being morally inconsistent to be ok.

[@marklymer1990]

Joey...youre such a legend, but remember we cant fix stupid😉 keep it up you beautiful soul!

[@xveganx]

12:12 animal have complex central nervous system, plants don't

[@jeurrn]

I think he needed to see some footage right then and there

[@cynicalidealist11]

“We have two different ethical viewpoints” - sure but one is logically consistent and the other isn’t.

[@juve0nile]

These guys are giving me brain death🤦🏻‍♀️ It’s really hard for me to stay positive in the face of such selective stupidity…

[@Jadeejj]

Joey, if afterlife does excist, shall we get married next life?

[@m34569]

Vegan 💜🌱

[@alexnewell2747]

Jeeeeeeeesus. Favourite so far. Such a good debate. Joey you are hot on it bro!!

[@rebelvgan4579]

Cute doggies tho 🐕! It seems like those who like their sandwiches with a dead body part in it will try to squeeze out any possible excuse why they should be morally inconsistent, to the point of making statements about plants (of which they also care nothing about). To take the life of another living being for no good reason is the ultimate line crossed in morality, because it is life that all beings value above everything else. Also - cheapest foods on the planet (so far) are vegan by default (not the processed stuff). 😁

[@aramekahn8070]

All the Mental gymnastic because I’m so addicted to body parts that I can’t change…

[@cmra_mane]

Thank you Joey for what you do, keep grinding 🌍 💕

[@nettle8605]

In court: “Well, that’s YOUR moral standard, Your Honour!”

[@x-latetv-x6816]

And that person would be technically correct but they broke the societal contract, off to jail you go

[@shannon3994]

ah the classic "a vegan was mean to me so I'm going to continue hurting animals"

[@Stevelives13]

You mean "Im upset I was proved wrong, so I'm going to act like a child and sulk". This comment section is full of them.

[@andrewhenderson7858]

That crazy man tattooed "Vegan" on his body. Wow.

[@carnismiscancer2108]

Veganism is rising and thriving while carnism is trying and dying! WE ARE VEGAN! WE ARE STRONG! IF YOU'RE NOT VEGAN WHAT'S TAKING SO LONG!?!?!

[@x-latetv-x6816]

Nope

[@Trolloftruth]

No

[@alexandervdr]

The vast majority of the world population, about 90% eats meat, and meat consumption is rising. So no, you're wrong.

[@Stevelives13]

@@alexandervdr Not really wrong when veganism is growing exponentially and has decupled (thats increased x10) in the last 30 years. Given that rate veganism will become the majority in the next 20 years.

[@gamevirus01]

because people like you is cancer

[@Muji-Exempt]

As a Vegan for 8 years now, I believe that might makes right, and so-called "ethics" only matter if you can enforce them. "The strong do what they can, the weak suffer what they must." -Thucydides, c.400 BC I strongly desire to see a more just, caring, fair, and benevolent world. And yet the more I examine the way the world works, the more it's obvious that this is almost logically impossible. If might doesn't make right - i.e., if there's some sort of "rightness" other than what happens, then whatever is meant by "rightness" has no functional bearing on the real world. If you believe something "should" happen, then either you have the power to enforce what you think "should" happen, or what you think "should" happen doesn't actually matter. (Obviously, soft power - such as the ability to elicit sympathy from others who can form a coalition with you to increase your ability to enforce change - counts just as much as hard power does). This succinctly explains much of what we see in the world. Rich people get away with more than poor people, because their positions of power and privilege make it more difficult to punish them. Police can do things that private citizens would never dream of trying, because nemo custodit ipso custodes. I am not saying that all of history's genocides, wars and atrocities like that were ethically justifiable because excessive might and or power was applied. However I believe these things happened because the oppressed and victims were powerless to begin with by comparison. America was founded on this very principle after all where everyone has certain unalienable rights and bear a duty to defend them from injustice. The answer to every social injustice in the world, at its root, seems to be an issue of "oh yeah? well who's gonna stop me?" Please change my mind.

[@aftermymath]

What debate? Amazing patience, I would lose my mind. Thank you on behalf of helpless animals

[@poppyred7865]

We are not top of the food chain, we are in the middle in between pigs and anchovies. Apex predators are top. My cat is at the top of the food chain as she is an apex predator, carnivore, kills her own food with out the need for tools outside of her own body and she has very few or no predators. The food chain argument is laughable. These guys literally have no decent arguments to carry on eating and abusing other beings or a different species.

[@GarethRiffStevens]

10.40 the famous plant quote... Joey.. I love your patience. But then again, in this subject, no question is wrong to ask. That guy with the dogs sounds like a great person, he is the perfect example of how people can be a big fat hypocrite, then correct there own actions after they realised. Be Vegan. 🌏

[@libertadvalerio870]

Joey, you've done it again. Thank you for keeping up the good fight. Those seeds were PLANTED

[@bradley3140]

Because plants react to stimuli doesn’t make them sentient or feel pain. Our bodies also react to stimuli by digesting food, fighting diseases, healing wounds etc, that doesn’t make us sentient. A functioning brain and nervous system make animals sentient and feel pain. That’s what gives them moral worth.

[@Stevelives13]

Not to mention our skin pigment reacting to sunlight our sweat glands reacting to heat and our hair follicles reacting to the cold.

[@cynicalidealist11]

When he said you have to face the consequences if you decide to kill the dog, the follow up question is why should there be consequences for that but not for eating meat from a slaughterhouse? What is the symmetry breaker?

[@meatflake]

Holy crap. Listening to that guy with glasses trying to make a logical argument 😂

[@davidramms]

I’d be more concerned if preachy vegans turned him on tbh

[@DominionMovementDotOrg]

they need to actually see what unnecessary disgusting brutality animal agriculture really is. plenty of photography and film out there that plainly shows it.

[@redbriarn6295]

@Joey Carbstrong can’t stand it when people ask him about global market dependence on the meat industry…. “Will people starve “? Joey we’re here in London…

[@oscarpall6604]

I’m vegetarian out of pragmatism, but I definitely think that veganism is the morally correct position.

[@antigroundhogday]

To vegans that reads as "I'm an animal abuser out of pragmatism, but I definitely think that veganism is the morally correct position. "

[@robsengahay5614]

Hopefully you are on your way to veganism. I got there via being a vegetarian. Giving up milk was very easy (mainly because I actually found oat milk better). I just kept cutting down on eggs and cheese to the point where I ate them so rarely that it was easy to stop completely because I realised that I didn’t need them at all. Then it was a matter of avoiding anything with animal products. The sooner you get there the better for the animals and the environment and for your own peace of mind. The guilt I have felt over my prevarication at every point of this process has been profound.

[@dountoothers]

Obviously defeated, those two guys retreated at the first opportunity -- but not before their logical inconsistencies were outed by Joey. God Bless you, Joey!

[@Paradox_Sol]

Joey looks pretty smart debating unexpected random meat eaters. I'd love to see him debating someone who had this argument before and have thought about stuff that would be awesome.

[@Magar6]

Thanks!