This Argument Will Change Your Thinking on Exclusive Relationships

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Ep. 170
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[@chriscook9433]

People mistake pleasure for happiness & comfort for safety.

[@UnknowwnnHero]

Both are essentially the same want and need

[@Galvvy]

True, but it's not a mistake of perception, it's intentional indoctrination. Most people are not introspective of why they do the things they do, and when you pull the rug out from under them under most circumstances their ego collapses. The fact most people follow a blueprint society imparts on them is not unnatural or unusual, the problem is when it is maligned by nefarious entities.

[@Mico-Xiyeas]

I love how succinct this description is.

[@Mereologist]

Many philosophers have taken pains to draw fine lines between different kinds of pleasure. For example, Aristotle considered the best and most lasting kind of pleasure to be that of 'eudaimonia', which he defined as the pleasure of living up to your fullest capabilities and being the most you can be through virtue, as opposed to a mere passing pleasure of 'hedonia' from, say, a good lunch or basking in the Sun on a summer day. Even the famous hedonist Epicurus argued that the very temporality of those latter pleasures made them vastly inferior to things like good relationships and just generally avoiding unpleasantness.

[@kaoskronostyche9939]

@@Mereologist Wow! You used the word "eudaimonia." I haven't seen that word ever, anywhere since I read about it in the days before the internet when words and wisdom were still transmitted on paper.

[@evanathome]

I hate how my generation and the ones after ( Millennials and Gen Z ) get painted by the media as wanting polyamory and “open” relationships. Many of us do not! In fact a GREAT MAJORITY OF US DO NOT. Our generation has been wrecked by loneliness, porn, hookup culture, social media making ( men and women ) both feel like shit for no reason at all. Monogamy, marriage and long term love are not “outdated” or “wrong” but is the BEST WAY for long term happiness and love for both partners. I don’t want to hookup with many people. I want to be that special one for someone. :)

[@Ruby_Villain]

You sound like you have a good head on your shoulders and are on the right track. Good on ya, friend. You’ll find her. 💛

[@skyrat174]

As someone identified as polyamorous.... I agree, mostly... It's not common for people, surprisingly being polyamorous actually limits potential partners significantly.... although I would like to say I hate how polyamory is always discussed and commented on as something with purely sexual intentions.... it's really not.... some people look at it as a glorified way of being a slut.... I like to look at it like this; I can't possibly expect myself to meet all of someone else's needs all of the time, and vice versa.... one girlfriend or partner might really like hiking and want someone to hike with whom they love, another might want to travel lots, another playing video games and twitch streaming.... I view every relationship in my life as unique and don't compare it to other relationships, they are just different... and if i have someone's best interests at heart, I want them to have the best of the best no matter what it is and to learn and grow and experience all they can, and i can't always provide that.... so if they have another partner who can provide that particular need or facet of growth for them, that's awesome! And for me... same goes... some people I enjoy discussing Jordan Peterson's videos with, some people just can't .... just can't do it... and so I won't... if i happen to be very attracted to that person who does enjoy talking about JP's content, maybe it's not just their intelligence, and i begin to grow very fond and care for that person, then i will nurture and protect that love if circumstances allow.

[@kenofken9458]

About 5% of us are poly and that number is not likely to change significantly.

[@missylks1239]

@@skyrat174 Question( and this is just curiosity so, tell me if I am misinterpreting something): Why do you consider each of those relationships love and not just friendships? For me (a monogamous individual), it is very much the same way, it's simply that those other relationships are not "amory" aka love, it's mere friendship. I can't expect my partner to be perfect and do everything and fulfill my sexual desires. So, I have my male friend I do kickboxing with. My female friend I go hiking with. My Saturday brunch pals to have political and philosophical talks with. But, in my mind all are just FRIENDS not loving partners. So, where do polyamorous individuals draw the line between friendship and love?

[@thesmiths629]

I think the baby boomer pursued polyamory and just called it divorce and remarriage.

[@UNCHART3DGAMING]

Married in Vegas 33 years ago - we met playing co-ed sports, we’re genuinely compatible on many fronts and we chose each other - it was “our wedding” not “my wedding” - 2 grown children and still evolving……

[@MaesArmstrong]

Lobster logics (me)

[@reallythere]

At the end jordan peterson talks about marriage being a commitment in front of family and community. For many of us, there is no family or community😢 and this makes it harder to demand commitment because there's no structure under yourself, and no one has got your back. Hence not being married. Strong families aren't a reality anymore for a whole lot of people. And loneliness will have the best of us on our knees eventually accepting unfavorable conditions just to not be vulnerable alone or in the world. Without real friends or any family we are that weak.

[@proudatheist2042]

In such situations, we have to dig in ourselves to be the strength that we need to keep a marriage going. People also come from dysfunctional families that can't give sane advice for marriages, such as the family I grew up in. We need to be willing to read and listen to learn what we do not know. We have to talk with our partners and listen to them to ensure that everyone is fulfilled in the marriage.

[@reallythere]

@@proudatheist2042 unfortunately I never was able to find a partner.

[@julieCA58]

You stated the problem perfectly.

[@coachzaynab355]

This is why humans need religion. After being a Baha’i for years now I really understand the reason why religion is really a gift and necessary for humans to have moral discipline and accountability.

[@Foxie770]

That’s why you need to join a community. It’s out there. You simply need to find one that has the values you aspire to and join it. That’s also the best way to meet a quality spouse. Then you get married and create the family that you wish you had. I’ve had to do it and many others are doing the same. You don’t have to accept a broken life but you have to be willing to do what it takes to create the new life you want.

[@encouragingword1172]

Had a successful relationship but husband passed after 32yrs. I miss him every day. Its been 4 yrs. I have no desire for any other relationship of that kind. At 65, life is now just an existence but am grateful to have known and experienced the satisfaction of monogamous love and commitment. We were both far from perfect. We had fights, we made up, we hurt each other’s feelings, but affirmed each other also. It was a dance of ups and downs, comfort and discomfort, and passion mixed with times of dullness. We were simply two very different people who loved each other. It was interesting, challenging, satisfying and good. What better thing could life offer than this?

[@philgowan6298]

A Wonderful Story.

[@stephenbrough8132]

I genuinely misread the title as The Surprisingly Sound Case for MAHOGANY. I thought it might be about deforestation or something. Must get my eyes tested.

[@Ruby_Villain]

It tracks; Dr. Peterson is a classy dude. I bet he smells of rich leather and mahogany (name that reference 😆)

[@airgin3000]

Hahahahhah

[@jenniemay5163]

I read it as, misogyny, 😅. The trolls would have field day!

[@kenofken9458]

I'm down with mohogany. Monogamy, not so much!

[@stephenbrough8132]

In my defence / defense - I had previously been watching a David Dickinson video, the antiques guy who appears to use wood stain on his face.

[@franjocilic2694]

Love is not an emotion. It's a decision.

[@_munkykok_]

*decision

[@spambot_gpt7]

But it's only possible with a cooperating partner

[@ChaoticNeutralMatt]

Feelings can sprout from that which can themselves also be called love. But these can also be smothered by the circumstances of the shared reality of both parties. Something to consider.

[@flower9015]

It's both, a feeling & a decision that's more like, surrendering

[@spambot_gpt7]

@@flower9015 Or it's like taking on a responsibility. Depends on which side you're on.

[@lindsaytwort8655]

My mother used to say……..Why buy a book….If you can go to a library and borrow one! I think woman have made themselves far too easy, to their detriment. What has happened to morals. People behaving like rabbits! What about love and commitment? I have been married for 50 years, three children, and eight grandchildren. I would not have changed any of my life. We all loved each other so much, and have had happy and fulfilling lives.

[@thestorybehindthat5236]

If you value morality then you treat a woman right and expect the same from her. Morality is independent of what others do or don't do. In other words, if a man needs the collective of women to withhold sex to seek out what looks like a real relationship, it's actually not. It's a facade, cause if given the opportunity to "be bad" he would take it. I think today women are able to see who's who and not marry low character men. The incel movement is evidence of this.

[@mickcrovo5238]

@@thestorybehindthat5236 No, they just marry wealthy men, regardles of character.

[@VisionaryVicente]

​@@thestorybehindthat5236You are completely missing the point. It flew right over you. His point still stands. Why would you buy a book when you can borrow it? As long as commitment is not required to get what you want then why would anyone commit to get it? It's like if everyone is getting on the train for free by skipping the fare, then why would you pay $20 for it? You'd be getting punished for doing the right thing. You'd get the short end of the stick. You'd be the only fool to do so.

[@thestorybehindthat5236]

@@mickcrovo5238 I see plenty of not wealthy men wearing wedding rings everywhere I go. Stop making excuses.

[@mickcrovo5238]

@@thestorybehindthat5236 Your anecdotes don’t refute the overwhelming statistical data

[@mcgarry2588]

Wonderful piece here. Mr. Peterson, might I suggest doing a piece on single Fathers with 100% custody. It is a growing phenomenon in western society the I myself am going through. My daughter is 7 years old now and I raised her alone since she was 7 months old. I would love to hear your advice.

[@abel2933]

Stay strong. Clap clap

[@amazingjason455]

I suspect that much of the advice given here would apply. kzbin.info/www/bejne/bWbYpoqqh9ehgKssi=KxKIKmDFq0l8oXyN

[@electromigue]

I'm in my thirties. My dad raised me and my brothers alone since we were around 12. My mother came and left before she finally moved to another city with another man and totally renounced her responsibilities as a mother. I'm eternally grateful for my dad. He has been an awesome dad, always supporting us with love and understanding. Just do your best and it will pay off. You don't have to be perfect, any intelligent son or daughter can understand that perfect is just an ideal and we all go through personal challenges due to internal or external struggles, but you are family, and together you can get through everything. Thank you for staying in your daughter's life.

[@Perry.Okeefe]

Im in the same position, single father with an 8 year old daughter. I've been raising her by myself since she turned 3.

[@MZRTMusic254]

If her mom's not around you could get relatives if you have any that can act as motherly figures. My sister is a single mother (father fled from the responsibility) so my brothers and I and my late father filled the role of the father-figures. It's worth considering if there's any suitable candidates that come to mind

[@Huckleberry04]

Frustration is why most people divorce. They are looking to be happy but the concept of happiness all the time is a trap. No one is happy all the time. There is no way to obtain it for the long term because something will always go wrong. Society has accepted everything as disposable and to excuse our behavior by saying 'no one has to put up with....' well if you want anything to work, you have to put up with..... Way to many people jump into relationships too quickly and end up regretting it

[@moisesjimenez4391]

Underrated comment and wise understanding my friend. Your name will be respected wherever you go.

[@joedohn9727]

Don't marry just for happiness, marry for the real moments, the shared or alone tears, the whole ride. If you can't see the good and bad in your partner, you are living a lie. We all have good and bad moments/parts to us nobody is perfect.

[@Reallgeemachine]

Entitlement is why most women divorce men, and women are by far the most likely to divorce. Remove at fault divorce and remove the division of assets. I think you will see far more people work through their problems instead of divorcing for no reason. There is not much wrong with jumping into a relationship quickly. That is how we are built. Lust brings up together and pregnancy soon follows. Arranged marriages produce MUCH happier people. Most people are compatible with most other people. Separation or divorce should be reserved only for seriously heinous situations.

[@Huckleberry04]

@@Reallgeemachine sounds a little bitter. A man secretly beating his wife controlling her every breath should definitely not have to give up any of the marital assets to an entitled woman. I'm sure you have it all figured out. Especially those entitled women who were never treated like ladies as a child to even know how to be a lady. But I'm sure you took that into consideration also. Those entitled women who were sexually abused should never assume they should be treated any better in a marriage either. I also saw you never mention entitled men.

[@Huckleberry04]

@@Reallgeemachine sounds like you speak from bitterness. The men who dont want to lose marital assets will love this idea. Men feel entitled and beat their wives when they dont submit their every breath. I dont agree that any such thing is appropriate in this era. Men aren't men anymore and women aren't ladies. Barely anyone can manage relationships these days and no, not most people can get along. Just look around you. No man deserves anything they dont earn. If a man wants marriage then they can court and prove themselves. No woman should be told to marry.

[@HelenEk7]

Some people believe that sex gets less exiting in a long term relationship. My experience is quite the oposite. I've been marries for 20 years, and sex has never been better than in the last 5 years.

[@jarkachalmovianska7812]

Thats maybe just age, not the relationship:) but can be...

[@joanofarcxxi]

@@jarkachalmovianska7812 Even if that's the case, age... so? What better situation would you ask for as you age? She is a lucky lady! Her man is doing it right. You will age too. Better pray it works...

[@karllib]

Maybe due to you being a woman. Happy for you

[@beeb88]

That's so fantastic

[@Emmalynrosie]

duh that makes sense sooo much sense

[@caseyhenshaw]

for whatever reasons people don’t bother to work on themselves enough to have the substance to last a marriage, yes people are becoming bored of others because of ignorance or unwillingness to see the other person as the intricate being they are, but on the other hand a lot of people are actually boring unpleasant people. it’s the me me me mindset and the ability to construct a version of one’s self online that are two big factors here i believe

[@ForgingMindset]

Ego is truly the beast within. Imagine a place where it can run rampant and unchecked. What a time we live in.

[@caseyhenshaw]

@@ForgingMindset not only can it go unchecked, but is often encouraged and rewarded

[@stabnore]

If you are abusing ten women at the same time, that is not serial abuse. It's parallel abuse.

[@joshualambert8346]

You cant abuse a woman that does not choose to be abused. Society needs to stop infantilizing women.

[@Draqu3]

😂

[@stephensullivan1011]

​@@joshualambert8346bro.

[@jarkachalmovianska7812]

​@@joshualambert8346 well women are still earning less and are physically weaker so are still easier target. Charges for abuse must be more severe. Why does anybody feel need to abuse?

[@racheltarentino3314]

​@joshualambert8346 no one chooses abuse. 🤯

[@mattasticmattattack8546]

If you're in an exclusive relationship and not happy, communication is key. Just saying from past experiences, it wasn't just my ex's fault, it was also mine, don't try to spare feelings my brothers.

[@renansaffremussard9236]

Freed from desire, my essence is purified !

[@mitchelltyner5670]

Never enter into a contract where 1 person is paid to break it.

[@davidjones8942]

Funny how they keep talking about the "health" of the people involved as well as society in general, that is hurt by the decline of marriage in our society, but completely failed to mention the complete absurdity of the family court system and how the marriage contract is fully enforced on one side and completely dismissed on the other! As you said, it's a contract that is binding on one side but not on the other, and one predetermined party is actually rewarded (by both courts and society) to break the contract.

[@jenealeverett2269]

​@@davidjones8942how is it enforced on one sided but not the other

[@jenealeverett2269]

No one is paid to break it

[@davidjones8942]

@jenealeverett2269 that may be your point of view. Ours is obviously quite different! Try sitting in a family court room some time.

[@mickcameron821]

@@davidjones8942 Can't expect a woman to understand. She's the one getting the benefits of a divorce.

[@omegahunter9]

I would agree that some of the hesitation for male commitment to marriage has to do with a limiting of options, however I don't think that it's the primary driving force behind that behavior today. There is significant risk to marriage with the existing judicial system biases, no fault divorce laws, and the funding of judicial retirement through child support resources. It has turned into a gold mining operation both legally and for some people financially. I'm not saying that this will stop all marriages in western society, but when you see men (and women) question why they should do it, I think we should look at the existing incentive structures for and against the marriage institution for clues.

[@andrewhobbins1915]

Peterson is very conservative. Marriage has nothing to do with love but financial security. Most people are into eugenics. Not a good perception. Sex is the least important aspect of a relationship and alot of women are sex addicts and so are men. Hedonistic. Most people who are hedonistic tend to be abusive.Most women like bad men and visa versa.Alot of bad men. Famous people usually have horrible relationships. Abuse has nothing to do with monogamy or polygamy. It has to do with purpose and meaning between individuals.Jealousy and possessive people is a abusive trait. It is a piece a paper Its trivial. The strength of the relationship is valuable.

[@martinr2040]

I think monogamy without marriage is the way to go right now

[@apebass2215]

Life is full of risks. Previous generations of men were more prepared to take risks, whereas younger generations are far more risk-averse and quite frankly, cowardly.

[@omegahunter9]

@@apebass2215I'm not talking of courageous or cowardly behavior, I'm talking about society incentive structures. If you have a safe market for cheap groceries with a good selection you'll have a high percentage buying at that market. If suddenly you take away some of the selection, less people will go to the market. If you make some of the produce rotten scams then less will go to the market. If you make the groceries expensive then less will go to the market. If you make shopping in the market legally difficult and punish individuals unfairly then less will go to the market. See my point?

[@nzingahoney]

​@omegahunter9 I see your point. But I think that it does take courage to risk cutting off all other options for one person. I think the failure of society is it doesn't train the young to discern good partners and the tricks or features of potentially bad partners, also not much self awareness training. More of this will lead to less mismatching of individuals which is really what fuels the fear of losing either in marriage or divorce.

[@GinaBurlingham]

I'd say most people in relationships did not CHOOSE thier partner but instead they were in proximity to one another and both seeking to in a relationship. Most of the time it is only proximity, .

[@mlfigueroa]

It's "free sex" without the responsibility of caring for, feeding, or clothing the partner.

[@grndiesel]

Mr Peterson, I've always admired what you do, but I can't agree with many of the points raised here. I do not fear commitment, I fear an ugly divorce and being turned into a court-ordered slave. Not all men want to sling seed far and wide. Most of us wanted to find their own "forever person", but it seems that's no longer fashionable.

[@joanofarcxxi]

Where are you looking for your "forever person"? Are you in a developed country? If so, you should not fear the court. In the modern world, in western society, the court sees no difference in gender. You are court ordered to do what is rightly your obligation, regardless of your gender. Have you a different experience of the divorce court system? Or maybe you heard it in red pill podcasts? There are a lot of bitter men who spew a lot of hate and (baseless) misinformation. You might want to look at the proper sources and educate yourself in these matters. However, if you are afraid of getting married because of a possible divorce, that's already not the best personality trait. When you are focused on the fear, you can't love. How do you then expect to find your "forever person"? In a marriage, you must give in a greater measure than what you plan to take. As a masculine man, that is the virtue you must possess for a marriage to work. Protect, provide, and serve. Lead by example. Be brave and bold, be fearless. And remember that perfect love casts out fear. ;)

[@grndiesel]

@@joanofarcxxi Hello Joan What you're describing is the age old, slay the dragon, win a princess and live happily ever after myth. Courage is required for love, and men are expected to demonstrate courage to earn that love. It's a story as old as romance, itself. My opinion on modern marriage comes from talking to real men with real "lived experiences", as some like to say. The online RP community simply gives some context as to why it happens. At a glance, the law does not discriminate based on gender. In practice, it's not so even handed. Most women will not settle down with a man who earns less than they do, so according to the spousal support obligations, men are the ones who pay, more often than not. And it's not by a small margin. A significant majority of all SP payments flow from men to women. One friend and former co-worker had his wife cheat on him and deliberately under-report her income in court. The judge did nothing about her little fibs and simply ordered him to pay SS for the next 10 years, based on her under reported numbers. Yes, he did have lawyer. Didn't matter. Another guy's ex when nuts with drugs and alcohol and child protective services went after him, instead (she got full custody). Only later, did they ask him why he didn't "speak up", once they realized she was a basket case. He was already considered the bad guy and was barely scraping by, so what reason was there to believe that they would take his side? Many men simply give up on speaking up. Once labelled a deadbeat, creep, etc, and threatened with jail, you're done. That second guy hadn't seen his kids for over 2 years. And yes, he was still paying for the house, plus all his other obligations. His ex even came over to threaten him a few times. Got it on video and everything. Didn't matter. A third guy ended up committing you-know-what, when an ex girlfriend and her current boyfriend started a non-stop harassment campaign against him. I found out through his colleagues. One of his colleagues had let him stay at his place for a while so things could cool off. She found him there, too and was shameless about harassing him even there. This last one hits home, because he was one of the best workers I ever hired. An older, stoic gentleman who didn't talk much but had a lifetime of experience in his trade. He had mentored many apprentices during his career and was well respected. Didn't matter. Fourth example. Guy gets married, has two kids. Both husband and wife have great jobs. Able to go on vacations. Kids are thriving. Wife tells him she never knew it was possible to be this happy. Didn't matter. Two years later, she files for divorce. All of the above examples are men that I know or knew or worked with. I'm not going to presume that women don't suffer. That's not my point. My point is, whenever a man suffers, the law doesn't care, especially if it's at the hands of a woman. It is presumed that no matter what a man goes through, women still have it worse. We only care about abuse when it happens against women. If a man is abused by women or the state, he's told to man up. He's told to change. He's told that he's the problem. Are you aware of the male suicide rate, and how it compares to women's rate? As with spousal support, the difference is not by a small margin. Are all women villains? No. Am I saying you would do that? I don't know. That's not my point, either. Not all women would, but any woman can. That's my point. Finding someone that wouldn't do that is not a zero risk venture. Fair enough. Show courage, right? However, ending up with a possible criminal record because of a vindictive ex does spoil the appetite. Here's a question for you, Joan: Would you sign a Prenup? And by the way, feel free to share some links to that more reliable information that you mention.

[@themuse11]

@@grndiesel and ALL those examples you mention - the same is true also among women. I know many who have had their children removed from them by a punishing partner who lied in court just because he didn't want to pay child support. Courts will even overlook spousal / child abuse and give the abuser custody if he has money to drain. Men who seek custody win it more often. Most don't seek it. Women are instructed by their attorneys not to tell the court about abuse, because it will reflect badly on HER. Also, men in those groups lie for cred. Men bond with other men this way. They often aren't truthful about their own actions, or what led their wives to divorce them. 'I don't know what happened' - of course they know what happened. Of course some women are just as shitty. But the system does not favor us in any way because of our sex. I dated a man for 3 years, who convinced me that his ex 'took him to the cleaners' and that the court punished him by making him pay excessive spousal support and child support (he kept the house, all their savings, all marital property and paid her about $500/mo total. He had convinced her to stay home to raise the kids then turned into a jailer. When she left, she took the $500/mo and thought it was generous... because all she wanted was to escape). I had believed him completely, until it became apparent what I was dealing with, left him - and reached out to her for the rest of the story. We all have cause to fear the courts. *Everyone should sign a prenup*

[@paulds65]

@@joanofarcxxi The court sees no difference in gender? Are you delusional? >90% of alimony is paid from men to women.

[@grndiesel]

​@@themuse11 Well, perhaps we agree on one thing: Prenups. Although depending on the jurisdiction, they can easily be tossed out by a judge. A prenup is an attempt to limit a Judge's discretion, and a lawyer's earning potential. Folks of the robes generally don't take kindly to that. Yes, women do suffer in divorce; it's an ugly system. But on average, men are punished more. Why? because in most long term relationships, men still earn more than their wives. Spousal support flows from higher income to lower income. So while the system doesn't explicitly discriminate, it does so in practice. Men have been paying more Spousal Support by a wide margin. This is not disputable, and exceptions don't disprove the average. The same is also true for "self-offing" rate. You gave an example of a relationship where the man was earning 100% of the income (or close to it). He had to pay SP but kept all the assets (or close to it). Curious...who paid for those assets if he was the only one earning income? Who owned the majority of assets when the relationship began? These details matter. Modern, no-fault divorce is supposed to operate fully independent of any alleged behavior that led up to the breakup.

[@joshuadiliberto1103]

I love the idea of 2 people committing to each other for life. I don't think the government should be involved in it. I married a woman legally once. I was faithful and she was not. So, the argument that the society and government help to buttress the marriage is poor.

[@Ruby_Villain]

One of my absolute favorite things about certain species of animal/bird/whatever are a that they mate for life. I find it sweet and meaningful, even if it’s not even so much that, for them. It gives me hope for people though. I have seen some outstanding monogamous relationships, particularly that of my grandparents. They were they most loving, perfectly matched couple I’d ever seen. Only as an adult did my grandma tell me shortly after my dad was born, they were at each others’ throats constantly, and one day stormed out the door to the courthouse to get a divorce. When they got there, they realized they didn’t have enough money, went home, cooled off, and stuck it out. It made me love them all the more.

[@nzingahoney]

​@@Ruby_Villain operative phrase PERFECTLY MATCHED. Unfaithfulness only comes with mismatching. When your shoes fit perfectly you don't want to wear any other pair.

[@johnbeynon3007]

Marriage is nothing but a social construct. If society didn't exist, then there would be no reason for marriage. Therefore, a society is the only real foundation to marriage. Society is required to respect the marriage between two people. If society doesn't support that contract, then there is no real foundation to the marriage. Pressure from society would crush a marriage if that society rejects your commitment to each other.

[@alexmiller6955]

Society and govt help crush men in divorce so be careful who you contract with and the local laws

[@liesecarey9494]

Society and government are bad for marriage, in our case, in the here and now, because our family courts are utterly corrupt and because of the selfish and ungodly popular norms. Hence why Peterson is speaking to the problem of our society tearing down marriage and family when we should building up those central, foundational institutions. I know how bad it is having been dragged through our ridiculous divorce court process for three years while he lived with the mistress he'd moved in with. But I also appreciate this speaking out in this video about how our society and government ought to be, even though I myself am unlikely to ever want to trust again or take the enormous risk again.

[@DrMorgo]

In the confused modern era, we are subject to the whims of our partners “happiness”, which few can satisfy given the fleetingness of such an emotion.

[@Foxie770]

That’s NOT a good partner. Get yourself emotionally secure first, then find a partner to marry who is also secure.

[@stevebutler812]

Man, I’ve been looking for this whole interview for the last year or two because it disappeared from the Internet This is a really important interview, man

[@mickcrovo5238]

It's not just a piece of paper. It is an unconscionable contract that promises nothing to the man and gives the woman the right to cheat on her husband, take half of his resources, and (usually) his children. No man in his right mind would sign such a piece of paper. I did it once and it cost me dearly. I would never do it again. Fortunately, in my case I had the support to enable me to gain physical custody of my son and now I am celibate and free. I take care of my son and my aging mother. Most of my male friends have similar stories.

[@lunalavender9665]

We have prenuptial agreements for a reason for those who need to feel more secure and protected in the marriage. But marriage is a dedication, a devotion that should be taken seriously from both partners. It should held in respect and honor.

[@jonathanbell7287]

marriage is awesome. it promotes clarity, much like fatherhood. it brings out your A game and helps to establish goals and priorities. in short, you stop d*cking around. As an artist and musician, I became infinitely more productive and creative once I found a woman with whom I could partner with and plan a life. And my experience, the sex is better and steadier. perhaps I'm just lucky, but I don't think so. A lot of guys are, sadly, are addicted to squandering their lives chasing p*ssy. Having said that, I'm not gonna pretend that finding a good woman is easy.

[@Rozes301]

🏆💖

[@ChristopherT1]

I listened to this to find correction for my attitude that a marriage legal contract is foolish. A marriage agreement between my God, my community, and my wife is a worthy goal. The legal system creates a motive in most woman’s cases to not have to compromise and cooperate and an unfair contract for the men in most traditional marriages. Prove me wrong. Most woman, especially the ones who don’t make as much money as their husbands can just take half of his money and leave anyway. Why bother? The legal document is modifiable in a prenup. What’s it good for? The threat of leaving with nothing vs actually working hard to settle disagreements is a good incentive to cooperate and stay married.

[@QueenLightbeam]

This discussion needs to be spread far and wide. 🎉🎉🎉🎉

[@empiricalwolf1256]

Greatly respect jordan but I do disagree with him on why men don't want get married. It's because if the woman decides I'm out, that's it, he's lost everything he owns and then he's expected to pay for her for the rest of his life. All because the courts are heavily in favour of the woman, regardless of how she treated him. Why would most take the risk. Side note before anyone has a go, I do want to meet a girl that I trust enough to marry but that doesn't stop me seeing what's happening to a lot of guys.

[@bradleywang5739]

Solution date men.

[@empiricalwolf1256]

@bradleywang5739 kind of hard to produce kids with another dude, but I appreciate your suggestion 😅😆

[@bradleywang5739]

​@@empiricalwolf1256 Let me contextualize it like this, I'm sort of joking. I am an young adult I have dated both men and women. The fixation on women being able to betray you and take everything you have, and having to take care of them as a man. As well as marriage being risky is very silly in my opinion. Are these concerns? Yes they should be pollical and social concerns and people should advocate for mens' rights in these areas. I did used to have the same concern before I started dating as an adult. As an actual adult dating other adults, if you have these concerns you are dating the wrong person. The vast majority of people are perfectly normal and are not looking to take advantage of you. They can take care of themselves and if they can't you should not be in a relationship with them, they also expect you to take care of yourself. Having the fear of entering a relationship because of uneven power dynamics and risk is mostly an in your head situation. If the person you are dating or in a relationship is causing these anxieties or fears in you, talk to them about it or leave. Most people aren't and will not try to take advantage of you or harm you in that way. Regardless of being male or female. Men and women are the same in this regard one isn't better than the other or less risky. They are all people and act accordingly. (Though one thing I've noticed is men have a much higher tolerance for relationship based frustration). I mention this reason being I think the whole discourse around women and relationships being risky is unfounded and rather bizarre (Mostly because of how overblown cancelation and the MeToo movement are in the press and society), don't worry about it and find or allow someone you are interested in enter a relationship with you. Don't be a scumbag sexual harasser, womanizer misandrist etc and you aren't really in any risk as long as you are reasonable.

[@LeFlamel]

​@@bradleywang5739even if the woman you're seeing isn't trying to exploit you, they are highly incentivized to by their divorce lawyer. Power corrupts. The power to enslave the ex husband is extremely tempting especially if things end bitterly, which is hard to predict even if both parties are "functional independent adults." No matter how much you love someone you shouldn't put a gun in their hand and tell them to point it at your head.

[@themuse11]

​@@LeFlamel For some men, any obligation to a woman post-divorce is 'enslavement'. Even if that woman put aside her career, and served the man during the marriage, enabling his material success. Rare is the man who can admit, especially post-divorce - that her contributions to the partnership contributed to his success. Even if she worked in the family business. In fact, that's why women leave relationships most often - having their contributions taken for granted. Those husbands often think room & board is good enough. The outrage over the Crowders' situation is telling. She worked in his business - and in the home. He would not have had the material success without her. Single women, in other contractual relationships - get compensated. Only in marriage is a women supposed to be 'selfless' at her own expense. Yes, power corrupts. Power dynamics in SAHM situations are a perfect example. Two people, both acting selflessly in a marriage = good marriage. It doesn't work when it's only one.

[@Portia620]

Sounds like my ex!! Very jealous but he wanted to cheat on me too. This was NOT an open realionship and I brought it up and he said no to open realionship after he had cheated and been caught! He wanted to have me and cheat on me without my knowledge!

[@davien001]

So the solution to a cheater is offer an open relationship? No wonder you dated him in the first place.

[@racheltarentino3314]

Whats up with all these incels in the comments🤡🤡

[@user-hn1yu8nd5i]

I think she meant that she used would you prefer an open relationship to prove her point that he only wanted to cheat and have her reserved. Stop projecting on a comment first comment

[@hleniwefuneka7402]

If you want to cheat just be in an open relationship

[@caralho5237]

So he wanted a harem...Thats not how this works. Only very rich men get to have those

[@janker1676]

I actually agree with marriage is just a paper, my wife and I didn't get married for 6 years until I had a job that had insurance. We went to the courthouse the next week to get the paperwork done. We were married before in our hearts and a paper or the few ppl in the room didn't do that.

[@strigenteam]

Same. The ceremony was the done deal. The paper years later was like "Oh yeah, we should go get that done today" and it was just an errand. Not special and quickly forgotten. When you're all in, you're all in. That's when it gets interesting. A stupid courthouse document won't do that for you.

[@paulds65]

Agree that it is more than a piece of paper, it is a contract where one party gets a benefit when they break it. Men are not afraid of marriage, men are afraid of divorce. Want increase the marriage rate? Simple, abolish alimony and child custody by default 50/50.

[@itsshierlz]

I’m a woman and I have way more assets than my fiancé. That’s a broad generalisation.

[@LightHouse_222]

3 days before our wedding he said "it is just a piece of paper". I was 22 years old, the wedding was planned, I cried, and yet went through with it. He was a prolific adulterer for the 12 years I remained with him. He said his body was his and nobody was going to tell him what to do (with it). He was also very jealous, to the point of violence, especially after I moved out. This video makes perfect sense. Thank you. I have been celibate for 6 years. (Another unfortunate marriage and one engagement. All the same.) Now, alone at 55, it is easier, because the rules have changed. I was using the model my parents used. It seems to be outdated. Religion brings me peace now. I wish I had thought more carefully at 21 about who I married and used religion as the yardstick and not 1980s trends of freedom.

[@blessedly4499]

Thank you for all you do Dr Peterson!

[@mitchwatson6787]

To give fair creedance to the 'piece of paper' cliche: If a state has no interest in enforcing or even properly defining marriage then that document isn't worth the paper its printed on. It's no excuse to not take responsibility, but it is a fair criticism of the governments and societies who gave up their collective responsibility to uphold their end of the institution of marriage long ago. No wonder we are all getting divorced.

[@20thcentury_toy]

And especially if this very piece of paper is used in the divorce to exploit one of the parties

[@spambot_gpt7]

JP is good in his field, but he had no relationship experience. He is together with his childhood sweetheart. Marriage today doesn't have the same rules as the historically successful model of marriage. To compare them is to be historically illiterate.

[@1Plebeian]

Govt only enforces one-half of marriage contracts. The dissolution of the man's estate.

[@nzingahoney]

Love this i want to see more of this ❤❤❤❤

[@robertturner2516]

I agree with marriage in the fact of the declaration of "this person is the only person I will have an intimate relationship from now on" I am not against other forms of marriage that declare the same, so long as there is meaning to that promise

[@alastairsmith2173]

From what I have seen elsewhere on KZbin, men don't avoid marriage because they fear commitment, rather they fear divorce court.

[@Nosteponsneksss]

Maybe the men fearing divorce court should open up a conversation with women on why many end up asking for divorce

[@juanitome1327]

@@Nosteponsnekssswould you sign up for an insurance that most likely will leave you bankrupt and emotionally destroyed in the case of an accident? Would you then ask “why did you have an accident in the first place then?” Its a good question to ask why did it happen in the first place though, but this context is just not the right one.

[@PJ-om2wq]

​@@Nosteponsnekssswomen don't "ask for a divorce", they just do it, making a mockery of their wedding vows. Divorce has become too easy and it's undermining marriage, with divorced men paying the price.

[@lisaharmon8401]

I know a man who doesn't fear divorce court, given the way he's been acting. His wife has hung on through thick and thin, through fourteen children and 24 pregnancies in 23 years. Protecting her children from dangerous associates of his and still teaching them to honor him. She's a bit stupid, or something, but a loving woman. He's acted like she was nothing or as though he actively hated her as soon as the honeymoon trip was over. I think those situations are why God provides divorce and police interference as an option now.

[@alastairsmith2173]

@@lisaharmon8401 sounds like a nasty man and your friend may need help.

[@tomyoung8563]

I was married It was one of the worst experiences of my life. Life is much easier on my own. There are millions of guys like me…… which makes me wonder why the pro marriage people have to lie about marriage.?

[@spambot_gpt7]

They use historical examples... ...but the rules were changed completely. These naive boomers have no idea.

[@godpilled9077]

I was married too, it was awful. I'm a woman and I have never been treated so poorly in my life. I'll never get married again. Men think when they marry you, they own you like a slave and can do ANYTHING that they want to you.

[@4120306]

I am married. Getting married was the best decision of my life. And this is coming from someone who had no problems getting dates/laid as a bachelor. And so marriage for me wasn't an escape from loneliness or any form of lack. I am not saying this to dismiss your experience. Nor am I in any way trying to convince people to marry. I'm writing this to give a balanced perspective on this matter.

[@godpilled9077]

@@4120306 I'm glad it worked out for you. I wish I could say the same.

[@lizh7777]

When it's a good marriage, it's heaven. When it's a bad marriage, it's hell.

[@jaredmatthews7988]

I think It is really cool when a person can love another unconditionally regardless if sex is involved or not.

[@farshadmn4273]

Thank you, 💯

[@SALTYCOMBATDIVER-ExInstructor]

Some men may feel like they want to keep their options open (although I don't know anyone like that personally) many men don't want to sign the paper that women are rewarded for ending.

[@Mereologist]

The secret is that paper does not create commitment from nothing... either it is there before and without the paper, or it is not there at all.

[@SALTYCOMBATDIVER-ExInstructor]

@Mereologist worse, just because it's there at the start doesn't mean it persists. Divorce is more than half of marriages and that rate has only increased.

[@Gt3ch]

That’s exactly right. This trope of demonizing men is hollow. The thing is, esp if there are no children, the state enforced marriage contract is anti men and gives women perverse incentives.

[@user-lt1jd1ye3v]

@@Gt3ch so every young woman in america suffers because of laws that were created 20 years before she was even born? make it make sense. So an entire generation doesn't procreate (men refuse to marry) because of laws that were written 20 years before they were born? again-make it make sense.

[@C12341]

There are unfortunately a lot of men in the past who would accelerate sadism and abuse once the woman was “trapped.” That’s why no fault divorce came about. A lot of people aren’t good. Women are still more likely to be unalived by their husband or bf. In the past lots of men abandoned families to start new ones. The economy is worse now and so that’s why it seems a burden, but the protections of marriage, no fault divorce, and child support exist for a reason. Why would anyone want to trap someone in a relationship they don’t want to be in, for any reason? It’s draconian. People in love treated well stay together.

[@andrewhobbins1915]

Its a commitment to the state and most people think that if the marriage doesn't work then they don't want to go through a divorce. The divorce rate is probably around 65😮 percent of the population.

[@allen4758]

As much as I would like to marry again one day,, there is not a chance I'd ever risk it again, the state can respectfully ( kiss my azz ) .

[@flashwashington2735]

Thanks.

[@vansserafim]

Very interesting topic

[@TarkMcCoy]

For many men it's not a piece of paper, it's a bear trap. Within those, "love" becomes a bait, not a boon.

[@mikosapps2476]

Agreed and unless the Office for National Statistics are making things up..men have a 50% chance of losing house,pension and a large chunk of their income. So those above accusing men of cowardice..it's not cowardice it's pattern recognition.

[@jgrif7891]

I like Dr. Peterson well enough, but listening to him talk about love and marriage is like a leper listening to a supermodel complain about her imperfections. My world is so different from his that I can't begin to relate.

[@Razear]

The problem with formalizing commitment with marriage for men in today's judicial landscape is that a lot of them end up financially brutalized in the event of divorce with alimony and child support. I personally don't take an issue with marriage from a religious standpoint, but I don't see a viable argument for getting married if you're a secularist. Involving the state in one's love life can't amount to any positive outcomes. Couples can share a long-term or even a life partner without the legally binding contract.

[@StepSev7en]

How about states where common law marriage exists? this is like being in a contract i never even signed. Peterson kinda touched on that at 14:00 I disagree "Couples can share a long-term or even a life partner without the legally binding contract." Stay safe brother.

[@stephenzaccardelli5863]

Laughing when I read Mr Peter 😆 reminds me of that scene in family guy with consuela 😅

[@r.walker7986]

The problem is there are not enough of the people , people actually want to go around.

[@1Plebeian]

I don't understand how these two can boil down the argument against modern marriages as "only a piece of paper".

[@flashwashington2735]

There Must be much you don't understand, You seem to suppose a 16 minute clip is the sum total of a 2 hour discussion. You also are seemingly blind to the reality behind the symbolic "piece of paper."

[@caralho5237]

Boomers being boomers

[@1Plebeian]

@flashwashington2735 Modern marriage is a piece of paper. 50% plus failure rate. What these two old gentlemen are trying to do is re-animate lifelong monogamy without resolving the structural decimation that modern law and culture have done to it. Their argument comes down to an appeal for a social fabric that exists around a couple, akin to the old timey gathering of your villagers and family to make a commitment in front of that you would be beholden to. Does that resemble reality today? Amish people, maybe. I could argue, "Hey, I'll do just the before friends and family thing, not the paper part." And their argument will just be, "no, you have to subjugate yourself to the nonsensical punishments of modern marriage, with none of the benefits of ancient, tribal marriage." This amounts to delusional thinking. They want the building block of society back, understandably, without doing any of the work that created and cultivated it. They're hoping "get good fellas, man up" is a blank check they can write to spend our way out of this cultural disintegration. It isn't. That masculine virtue requires sacrifices from the culture in service of its investment. The culture right now is annihilating it instead. Until that changes, you can go F yourself for lining us up on the chopping block of female caprice and modern courts. Marriage is a financial opportunity for women, and every man that runs foul of modern divorce is an acceptable sacrifice apparently. No. I think you will find you will actually have to treat men as valuable human beings who deserve the protection of their time and investments and family generation before you get those benefits. Because it is men with resources who start the kind of families you need. I will not be signing my life work, and as such, my eligibility, to a modern marriage.

[@sidneyslack7991]

Dr Peterson to say finger and hand tattoos make me a bad person and I am a SA perpetrator is wrong I was married to my wife for 32 years. She was my first sex partner and she passed away in 2022 I have not had sex with anyone else or even tried. I have piss off tattooed on my fingers because of a girl I lost who killed her self because of church politics when I was a youth minister she told me it means “people in shitty situation often feel forgotten”. So to say I am a bad person is not correct.

[@user-lt1jd1ye3v]

tattoos are fine, anyone under the age of like 50 doesn't care about tattoos. that was a boomer thing

[@sidneyslack7991]

@@user-lt1jd1ye3v it could be more he is from Canada also I guess.

[@delaslight]

Listen again. He did not say that. He was talking about the descriptions in the book. And, why damage your body and skin with toxins anyway?!

[@lillianpilto2377]

He described an ex of mine to the T. Wanting sexual exclusivity but also assuming all men were promiscuous I I’d be punished for being around other men, whether his social group or mine. The paranoia and entitlement is insanity. I’m very happy to be with my husband now. Marriage is not a peice if paper. It is a commitment of honour and devotion to building a life together-with consequences for breaking it up with infidelity or other atrocious behaviours. Everything is “not fine” just cohabitation. Women and men don’t want to always have the hedonistic looming of “once they are done with me, they’ll marry the next person.” Which we see so much of.

[@godsfan13]

First, I just wanna say I love you, Jorden you’re amazing keep up the good work! But I also wanted to add something else.. so I don’t plan on ever getting married. There’s multiple reasons but I don’t feel that the government needs to have a hand in my affairs(more than they do). I’m in the best relationship I’ve ever been in and we still don’t plan to get married. Our reasoning is we don’t see any point in it. When we got together, it was an unspoken understanding to love each other unconditionally. I would love to be in a situation where I could gather my family and ask for their support, but I know I wouldn’t get it. They might not openly object, but that doesn’t mean anything with my family. I guess I’m just trying to give you a different perspective on how relationships could work just fine without all the hubbub. My boyfriend and I tend to forget our anniversary because we don’t see that day any different from any other day. We love and cherish each other every day.

[@GraceHarwood88]

4:15 Because they know another man could offer his bang maid a happier romantic life, potentially without the added aggression drama. Perhaps even marry her, honour her and treat her right, unlike him. She probably hasn’t got those options. She’s likely loyally blind because he’s nice to her most of the time or he’s broke her down enough to believe no one would want her. Or she’s worried how he’ll terrorize her and her new man if she ever dares to have one.

[@lux-veritatis]

Stable homes is how we end this. At some point we are going to have to collectively come together and prioritize something other than ourselves when it comes to marriage, which both sexes are utterly failing at. I think a lot of this started back after the one-two punch of the Vietnam war and 60s free love revolution. Not only do you have traumatized men coming home from war and creating instability in family life, but you have a relaxed environment for women to seek opportunity elsewhere when things go south. Divorce became normalized. Birth control didn’t help either. You also have the phenomenon of the latch key kids and moms no longer home to watch after kids because they’re out working. Young males desperately need supervision and strong male role models to do well in life. All of this relative ‘freedom’ creates a cycle of broken homes and poorly raised kids that perpetuates down the line. When no one has modeled stability for you, it’s very difficult to learn on the fly. By the time I was a teen in the 00s it seemed most of the kids I knew had divorced parents, myself included. We raised ourselves on TV and the internet. Public schools were fraught with social gangs because supervision was so low. Without a Dad in my life and dealing with a ton of instability, I grew towards progressive ideology because it was the only tool I had to feel safe in a world that seemed to want to hurt me as a young woman. I had to learn how to navigate relationships with men without ever really having a positive male role model and that had terrible consequences for quite some time. I entered into poor relationships, abusive situations and got divorced young myself. I had a lot of anger as a young woman that I directed at men as a group so feminism was very enticing to help me deal with my frustration. It took a lot of conscious effort to learn healthy boundaries, discipline and structure. Learning the tools that a father might have provided in my life led me to become more and more socially conservative, more and more understanding and appreciative of what positive male role models could be even though I never had them. I started to see how my parents’ divorce was a product of their liberal views and how that impacted me terribly growing up. Christian values later taught me the importance of monogamy and the sanctity of marriage that has changed my priorities for the better. I needed a dad to show me these things as a kid. I also thoroughly believe young males need supervision in a more structured apprenticeship like environment with older males to fix some of this too. They need to be taken under the wing of good leadership early on instead of rotting in a desk and developing little gangs of their peers in public school. Women also desperately need their fathers to show them how a potential mate should treat them. If we want this to change we need to start at our own home. I’ve made a lot of changes in life and have taken it upon myself to take marriage and child rearing very seriously along with my role as a woman. It’s been hard - the men my age seem to resist taking on their role as providers just as much as the women seem to want total freedom from men. Men grew up with no supervision, playing video games all day and the idea of actually having to work and be responsible for a family terrifies them. Women get angry at the idea of authority and having to possibly control their behavior. I’ve heard a lot of excuses on both ends but we can’t keep making excuses for our lack of participation in something we know is beneficial for ourselves and society. Even if it fails terribly, at least you strived to do better. Don’t blame society any longer if you aren’t actively working on making it better.

[@nzingahoney]

Front of the class lady. I bet I could sit and enjoy a convo with you. So much my dad did not tell me either. ❤❤❤

[@teresamagnusson]

Your novel is cute, but women won't comply. We don't have to be trapped in a marriage anymore.

[@nzingahoney]

@@teresamagnusson it isn't a trap if you're working with a real man on a shared vision. It is otherwise. #weonlyneedkings

[@teresamagnusson]

​​@@nzingahoneyThat's a big if. If he pulls his weight in the relationship it can work, but nuclear families really don't work in the first place. Extended families are what work. It takes a village to raise a child.

[@spambot_gpt7]

Not really possible when you have to leave your village for a job.

[@solenenusbaum811]

The whole episode is great. Some magic happens and also it’s fun. Please try to speak again with Mr Dalrymple / Daniels.

[@blairdurward4324]

I can speak from experience as I was engaged at 27 as a man, now separated, I was a VERY different man when I had the security of a partner around, and I’m sure there are others with the same experience

[@VEE727]

Alternative title: Dr. Peterson called 2003 and discussed relationships. Great information though hehe.

[@VisionaryVicente]

😂 They must have time traveled. In reality, they did. These are older dudes discussing it with their view from when they were getting married 30-40 years ago. Not seeing it from the real perspective of what a modern day young man is experiencing.

[@VEE727]

@@VisionaryVicente I was talking about the video quality of the guest

[@BarrySometimes]

“An unending calamity across every dimension you can possibly imagine”. If one were exceptionally limited in their imagination, sure. I can imagine hundreds of dimensions in which a) it is “ending”, & b) isn’t a calamity at all. Why does Jordan speak so incredibly imprecisely?

[@aaronweiss3294]

He's speaking precisely enough, if inaccurately. If you're going to criticize others, examine yourself first ;)

[@BarrySometimes]

@@aaronweiss3294 It's not precise enough, though. It's simply inaccurate to say a) "an unending calamity", b) "an unending calamity across every dimension", & c) "every dimension you can possibly imagine". Jordan is unproductively hyperbolic. So hyperbolic, in fact, that his statements often suggest mania, & become reliably false.

[@redshift86]

It's not till I find someone better but things can stop working out at some point or I may fall in love harder for someone else in the future and it's easier to make the change without that contract signed, yes. This is not devaluing the person I'm with now, in my mind living with that person for the rest of my life is also a possibility and a likely possibility. Also, I wouldn't want my companion to feel shackled by that contract either, if she wants to leave me, she should feel as free as possible to do so. If you want to achieve the opposite by signing a contract, then you are a selfish and a weak individual as far as I'm concerned. This is how I see it for me and at least I'm not a liar. If people were enforced to fulfill the promises they make when marrying, not even 0.1% would do it.

[@astudent9905]

I would love to hear this topic discussed between Dr. Peterson and a woman with similar education and experience in marriage counseling.

[@christianstill.6654]

HONEST QUESTION: Is polygamy the same as promiscuity? I feel like there is a difference that most people tend to ignore...

[@spambot_gpt7]

The two are both lifestyles that do not commonly result in stable families. So they are equally bad if you value that.

[@GaiaNeh1013]

Equally bad but the difference is that promiscuity doesn't necessarily involve any commitment to any degree. Polygamy still holds the idea that there is some commitment, only to multiple.

[@spambot_gpt7]

@@GaiaNeh1013 That's the theory. In practice, it mostly doesn't last. No commitment is less painful than broken commitment.

[@GaiaNeh1013]

@@spambot_gpt7 exactly! It's half-ass commitment. One foot in, one foot out, and under selfish circumstances.

[@aaronweiss3294]

They are not the same historically, but modern liberals practicing it are basically promiscuous with extra steps

[@polymloth]

I want to note that not all heavily tattooed people are violent. Some of them have had a rough past but have grown to be very lovely and rational individuals! Sometimes people might also want to protect themselves in a difficult environment by appearing tough and scary. But tattoos combined with hostile demeanour is of course a clear red flag.

[@delaslight]

Never seen one

[@terrydillon9323]

If two people are not happy with each other and this happens, I feel they should part ways, but it is each persons responsibility to take care of the children they produce. Quite often a woman has not worked or worked at a low paying job, and she is the one left with the daily care of the children, food, school, doctors appointments etc. along with working at the low paying job; men quite often don’t understand this.

[@patriciawarner9680]

The comments here are so one-sided. So men fear marriage because if they were to get divorced, they would lose all their money. Well boo-hoo. I guess it’s OK for the dads to have complete financial freedom while the mother has to use all her money to raise the children that dad helped create. Step it up, guys. It’s only fair that you help pay those expenses. You would be paying them if you were married, so it’s a commitment either way.

[@WTF-WithTheFlow]

The benefits of marriage for men have long since passed. Marriage is not necessary for a two parent household. What is necessary is two willing participants willing to stay together and work through hardships together. That’s what’s missing. No way in hell can I ever see myself getting married. Or living with a woman. Not in Canada. Not because I don’t want to keep options open and live a pleasure seeking hedonistic life, but because I don’t want my life obliterated by laws put in place by a society that hates men.

[@JulietCrowson]

Society doesn't hate men - more the uncivilised lawmakers might. Women don't hate men. Lawmakers profit from division by creating cases Imo 🙏☮️

[@delaslight]

Change your country and get a prenup

[@WTF-WithTheFlow]

@@delaslight Nah, I’m good.

[@daniele1296]

I hope you find someone to love, with the same morals as you

[@jackr2287]

10:50 This here now is the important bit. Society doesn't seem to give any feedback positively on continuing through rough patches. I suspect part of that has to do with the extremes being displayed often, or loudly, compared to those who stick it out, despite the absence of general invested support.

[@markprothero2666]

I’ve become quite discriminatory against people who are into polygamy, polyamory, etc. I just don’t want their influence in my life. I’ve brushed up against it already and decided I want no more of it. Jordan is right, there’s a lot more violence amidst those sorts of social circles. That’s just one part of the problem, and there are many more. These people can do what they like, sure. Just provided it is far away from me.

[@sherriflemming3218]

I hear that. Agree. Stick to their own kind. I consider it to be a cesspool. .

[@johngy6296]

I can think of a dozen reasons not to marry as a man, and none of them are “to keep your options open” while in a committed relationship.

[@user-ez4wy3xj9o]

If u dont want to be married, thats absolutely fine but you can expect wife privileges and expect ur girlfriend to stay with u thru thick and thin. She can leave u when ever she feels like it and u cant do anything about it because u are not man and wife.

[@Gt3ch]

@@user-ez4wy3xj9oNot sure that’s right. Women leave marriages all the time and are rewarded and incentivized by the marriage contract and the state for doing so.

[@mariamsuma4548]

​@@user-ez4wy3xj9oPff! She can leave after the marriage just as easily. And will actually be rewarded for that by the gov and the court system. I'm a woman, but I completely understand why martiage for a man in the west today is a total scam with only 50 (or less) percent of success. And it's not just a sad nuisance if you don't succeed (Unless you're Jeff Bezos). For the majority of average men it's a complete trainwreck. A life destroyed. Sometimes - irreparably. If I was a man I'd never marry in the west these days.🤷🏽‍♀️

[@aztekenen1]

​@@user-ez4wy3xj9o she can still leave just as easily while married, this is not the 20th century lol. also, the marriage contract commonly pays out women even if they are the cause of the divorce. just need a valid emotional excuse. welcome to reality.

[@Milktube]

@@user-ez4wy3xj9o A wife has *MORE* incentive to leave a committed relationship - she will be given social status as a "survivor", alimony, half of the man's assets, 80% of the time the marital home property, child support with no accountability that any of it has to be spent on the child, etc. A girlfriend who leaves isn't legally guaranteed to get any of that (although some courts may give her some with common law-marriage stuff, it's still an uphill battle for her compared to the guaranteed victory that a wife gets.) A girlfriend also knows that she can be kicked the curb any moment and won't behave like a bitch, will make an effort to stay in good shape and be healthy, won't be overly argumentative or disagreeable, will care about the man's satisfaction and preferences, etc. A wife has 0 obligation or enforcement to do any of that.

[@JEKAZOL]

Welcome to the UK. The Celts are still here.

[@lanavalery174]

I would've agreed with the claim that marriage is the cornerstone of child's life (aside from psychological and social stability), but I have "a bone to pick" with that. Most of the people are getting married for the wrong reasons; they might be- pressure (both from society and the other party), false beliefs, need for control and not being ready for the responsibility. So when people, whilst having these issues and not addressing the properly are getting married- that's when it becomes hell from which there is no escape. Yes, you can divorce, but it can have big impact especially on women. So the issues is- how can you trust yourself firstly, that you are ready for this commitment, and how can you trust that your partner is ready? Yes, work on the issues that stop you from getting serious about your life and relationship and yes, grow up and become responsible adults. But as it was said in the video "most men don't want to tie the knot, because they don't want to close the door on variability", how are we supposed to build a healthy relationship let alone get married?

[@gurglejug627]

Wow, what a world of confusion: As one of the few men who has had hundreds of women (most of them decent/nice) I can tell you several things about 'women being beaten' categorically: 1. Women will pretend to have been beaten for their own manipulative ends 2. Women will say they have been beaten for financial ends (and indeed are encouraged (to say the least) by solicitors to do so, especially if custody of children (/and or control of a man) is an issue. When a woman can easily be proven to have clearly lied in civil court, even in sworn statements, even when officers themselves have seen it repeatedly, the police, as an organisation won't touch it, take a report or prosecute - there is no deterrent whatsoever. 3. Women confuse a fear of being beaten with actual assault and will report one as the other. 4. Women will provoke, even smashing a home, hurting a man as much as they can both mentally and physically, choke a man, even hurt children in front of a man until they are indeed hit/restrained, then claim assault and battery. Of course it's not every woman, but it is more than is recognised as a society- it's rife, especially in the UK (for whatever reason(s)). Women are given every opportunity to do these things, every encouragement in terms of child custody and VAST financial gain form doing this. It is not examined, it is not registered and it is becoming more widespread by the year if not by the month, now. It's a sign of court/police corruption/PC behaviour, overdone control feminism and fear by authorities of doing the wrong thing, and is absolutely guilty until proven innocent - ergo against all precepts of law. I suspect the majority of reports, even to psychologists/psychiatrists are largely nonsense and false, though I can't see how that could be proven.

[@jasperjones2493]

As Intelligent as these people are. They both have missed it or at least overlooked that fact that most men cohabitation is because they don’t want another man raising their children. They family court system is overwhelmingly supportive of single mother custody of children, therefore men will stay in relationships that they are not 100% committed to in order to avoid another man’s influence on the raising of their child.

[@a_passing_cloud]

This is it ☝️

[@jerrykudos9445]

Blind to the truth. Both of them. DIVORCERAP

[@TarzanWannaBe7]

It’s the state and what that “piece of paper” allows. Talk about that. Change the laws/family courts . Talk about that.

[@truthsucks-nz4fm]

"Women are wonderful, it is the men who need to step up."

[@benglasby8014]

I hope this is a joke 😂

[@jlnapoleon]

It’s very serious please think about it, most of the vape, abuse, crimes, murder, addiction, mass shooting, cheating commonality they are men. What can you say to that it’s clear if you men will admit it

[@sharonodom6423]

Marriage is not a piece of paper; it's a commitment to become 1 person UNDER GOD! God takes ALL COVENANTs seriously.

[@joshualambert8346]

He doesn't. See the modern church. It's full of single mothers.

[@Matlacha_Painter]

Theodore is a British National Treasure. Came out of nowhere actually. He reminds me of my old Professor Josiah Carberry. But Daryrimple actually shows up and delivers!

[@raymondchatwinfilms7542]

When you sign a mirage contract, you give another person control over your life, or at least the ability to take half of everything you have and make your life a living hell in the process. There is no bigger risk most people will ever take in their whole life. If you look at modern mirage from a purely logical perspective, like an investor making investment decisions, the legal contract portion of the agreement makes the investment significantly less attractive. (And don't think you're off the hook just because you didn't sign the paper. If you're living together or having kids, the court will treat it as a mirage.)

[@andrewhobbins1915]

If people took sex out of the picture people would be talking differently. Alot of people think life is about sexual competition and it's the least important aspect of a relationship.

[@s.e.studios1386]

The idea that socially enforced monogamy decreases violence is totally naive. All it means is that a woman has to be locked in a house with the man who has aggression issues and so the violence is kept behind closed doors. That´s all.

[@cecilymd]

There is a huge difference between decreasing and eliminating. I would only agree with your statement if you replaced the word decreases with eliminates.

[@xGeneralShrikex]

There are compelling reasons to have a marriage ceremony and make public vows. There are no benefits for men to sign a marriage "license" with the government.

[@OompaLoompaFu]

A couple relevant facts: Jordan Person grew up on the same street in small town in Northern Canada as his future wife. Yet, they didn't get married until college. She had been with other men at this point. It's not clear if Jordan had been with other women. She waited to see if he'd grow up to become someone worthy of her. We don't all get to marry our first crush, at pure as that would be. Without that purity or fairytale, you're left with practicality: how well you actually get along, if you can deal with her level of promiscuity (since women have more sexual choice than men, the man's will be lower on average), if you can trade novelty for fidelity. This is the reality. Beautiful? No. But we do it because monogamy is a social construct. A powerful one.

[@JonathanVachon777]

Its not a social construct. Its how we have been made. Promiscuity is the fallen state and social construct of the human race

[@spambot_gpt7]

Hmmm, I wonder why men are afraid of a piece of paper. Could it be that it brings advantages for women and society, but not for them? Marriage as it was practiced for millennia, had different rules than it has now. It cannot be compared. This is where Jordan with his high school sweetheart is in a naive bubble. The old working model was called patriarchy and someone smashed it.

[@kdbublitz88]

I think these days men are reluctant to marry into a system where the woman can walk away without any consequence and the system will award her half the man's assets, and in some cases he still has to pay her every month..

[@spambot_gpt7]

The historically successful model included rights for the man.

[@Nosteponsneksss]

But if a marriage is traditional, and a woman does not go to school or work and just stays home and takes care of the house, children, cooks and cleans- she has spent the majority of her life supporting the man. If that man ends up leaving her for a younger woman which has happened, that woman would have nothing. If not for the court system she would just be at the mercy of the man.

[@spambot_gpt7]

@@Nosteponsneksss Historically, divorce was very hard or impossible, even for the man. He could not just discard her. But he also had clear authority in his home, so there would be non-nuclear ways to fix behavioral problems. The deal was real commitment for real authority. You had too choose carefully, but this has always been the biggest decision of a lifetime. People aren't perfect, so of course this can't work perfectly either. But that's the model that civilization was built on. The other one just wears its name.

[@anon6599]

High oxytocin women (Nurses)- Extreme low oxytocin men (Violent psychopaths). I think its stereotypical polar atrraction

[@johnmorrison2894]

In the 1990s, some men might have viewed marriage as just "a piece of paper," implying that it was a formal commitment that didn't necessarily reflect the depth of their relationship or love. They may have felt that their relationship could be just as meaningful without the legal binding of marriage. However, in the 2020s, the perspective has shifted for some men. They might feel that the institution of marriage comes with significant risks and societal pressures. There is a perception that in the event of a divorce, the legal and financial consequences can be severe, with the courts often favouring the wife. This creates a fear of long-term punishment if the marriage fails. Additionally, there is a belief that wives are incentivized financially to leave, which adds to the apprehension about entering into marriage. These concerns reflect broader societal changes and the evolving dynamics of relationships and marriage over the past few decades.

[@TheGreenWanderer]

3rd comment! Thanks for the video Mr. Peterson.

[@Foxxxo]

How can these two intelligent men discuss the issue of contemporary marriage without even once addressing the absolute madhouse family courts have become, particularly concerning men, and the total economic devastation men could bring upon themselves by entering in this contract? Without even acknowledging that this is an important issue, any debate on marriage has no value.

[@whatamerde]

These men fail to recognize two things: 1. Our species has an evolved bias favoring the protection of its females. Broadly speaking, human societies default to gynocentrism, a feature which requires a cultural effort to override. 2. The females of the species have just as much agency as the males, and the perception of female patience nowadays is an illusion of the times we live in. That's the "women good - men bad" narrative that we foster in this zeitgeist. And even if they did recognize this, they would still have to turn against the power of the collective feminine in its current deluded state. Which they won't. In the story of Adam and Eve, Adam had no choice but to follow suit once Eve had taken the devil's bait.

[@ddnick]

Because they can't accept the fact that men are not the problem

[@apebass2215]

​@@whatamerdeif gynocentrism is the default, explain why less developed Arab and Asian countries have lower levels of freedom for women and higher proportion of violence against women and girls compared with more developed western countries.

[@symbiont2932]

@@apebass2215I think for less developed nations it is mainly still the demanding reality that forces men and women to keep their traditional role models (with all pros and cons). But that is on the way to changing. For western nations it's the relatively luxury and surplus of free time that dissolves traditions and leads to the erroneous assumption we don't need each other anymore and we can dispose reality.

[@nzingahoney]

​@@whatamerde statistics based on empirical data are clear that females are physically endangered most by males rather than the other way around. Most female murder victims are offed by their male partners. It's not a 'bias' that comes from nowhere. It is a very fair prejudice that men have collectively created but have yet to take collective responsibility for. While I acknowledge that many women are toxic and abusive emotionally and psychologically you can come back from depression. Coming back from a single fatal blow to the head isn't nearly as easy. Even small men are stronger than their women. Men got to take responsibility for getting themselves in that 'bias' trap and start turning those stats around by sheer volume of gbv cases being decreased. With respect to females in their deluded state, I wonder what is the delusion you are referring to. A woman is always seen as used goods by most men once she has had sex. Much less has had children. Men are not seen that way by women to the same extent. More divorcés can and do remarry more easily than divorcées, as a result. So many women lose time in childbearing and child rearing that men don't. So when they divorce the settlement laws favoring them getting half etc are at least in part a reflection of these trends as well. Not to mention, Halle Berry and Mary J Blige etc are now paying their ex husbands alimony. It is important to recognize the factual realities and logical reasons behind some things considered unfair.

[@ddevilisinthedetails]

Separation of church and state, take the state out of marriage and voila.

[@linktofun3501]

I PREFER PLEASURE AND SENSATION WITH ETHICS THAN A MARRIAGE WITHOUT SENSATION AND PLEASURE IN WHICH I COULD BE , FAKE IT WOULD BE .

[@alexbarnett2430]

Don’t think I’ve ever been this early before

[@charlesbell5500]

Yeah sure, reducing violence as a society overall is a sound case for marriage, but it's not enough for a person, particularly a man, individually. On the individual scale, I believe there are 3 core reasons for marriage, 2 if you're not religious. If you're not a Christian, you shouldn't even believe in marriage, marriage is one of the most holy and divine concepts and most people miss that! Atheists still have 2 solid reasons, but their case for marriage would be stronger with the 3rd. Now listen to this: each purpose of marriage is associated with each of the 3 parties involved in marriage (God and the spouses). The primary reason for marriage is meaning, or to glorify God. Marriage is supposed to represent Christ's relationship with his followers or the church. Marriage, if done properly, fills your spiritual jar with rewards when you get to Heaven. It just adds more meaning to your life than if you never got married. Meaning or life significance is why you get married for God. Next is fulfillment, and I'm using that term in the context of overall life satisfaction, commonly referred to as happiness. This here is all about you. You're supposed to derive true fulfillment from your marriage, and it's really important that you actually enjoy it. If you're one of those guys that scoffs at your wife every time she says something, that's not it. If you look on Instagram more than you jump into your husband's arms, that's not it. Marriage is supposed to feel exactly like a dream career! You have to love it. Fulfillment is why you get married for yourself. Finally, love is the last purpose of marriage. This is all about your spouse. This is all about giving your spouse the best life you can, and fulfilling them, although it's not your responsibility to fulfill them. You need to want to love them unconditionally. Big things like planning a vacation for your husband, or little things like covering your wife with a blanket if she falls asleep prematurely, are examples of love. You need to address their wants and needs and focus on them. But notice that fulfillment is more important than, or takes precedence over love. That's because you're more important than your spouse because you should always be the most important person in your life. Love is why you get married for your spouse. If you're an atheist, if you're a playboy, if you're a sugar baby, please don't get married. If you're an atheist, you have a very weak case for marriage; it's a Biblical concept! The absolute BEST scenario for your life is to be CAPABLE of being a playboy or a sugar baby but CHOOSING not to be and instead choosing marriage. That's a fucking powerful man or woman, a person who can do that. LISTEN TO ME! If you're unattractive right now, don't just settle and get married because it's safe. Turn yourself into an attractive person and then decide. Most men don't want marriage, they just want sex. And most women don't want marriage, they just want money. The quality of most people's hearts is garbage these days. But hey, if you can pick up some girls, if you can easily get a guy to buy a pair of shoes for you, you definitely shouldn't get married if you don't believe in God. It took me 5 years to gain all of these insights and all of this wisdom but I hope you learned something from it. God bless.

[@1trompet146]

Marriage is actually mostly for the children

[@airgin3000]

I agree with Charles Bell on this one - Plus the children factor. Protect, teach and grow the best children ever.

[@charlesbell5500]

@@1trompet146 On a grand scale, yes, but I was talking on an individual level. Having children, for an individual, is a completely different pursuit, it's got nothing to do with your decision to get married. You should want to get married regardless of if you want children or not.

[@charlesbell5500]

@@airgin3000 Yes but having children is a different pursuit on its own. Saying you want to be the best husband isn't contingent on having kids as well, you should also say you want to be the best father too. I wasn't talking about children, I was just talking about why someone would want to get married on an individual level. Being a father? I could be a father and never get married, I could just adopt or get a girl pregnant and take the kid, see? It's got nothing to do with marriage.

[@charlesbell5500]

@@airgin3000 But thank you guys for your responses, I really appreciate them. 🙏🙏🙏

[@modern.performer]

Not comprehending why modern western men won't fall into big daddy's trap of getting married is beyond me. Calling it "just a piece of paper" is borderline dangerous for the young men who listen. Marriage isn't what it used to be. Also, if anyone doesn't want "to commit and close off all possibilities", it's predominantly women!

[@Bill-ni3es]

I've known a few couples that have been together for years... when they decided to get married, they soon after divorced.

[@delaslight]

Yes, marriage late in the relationship is usually correlated with higher divorce rates. Specially if they live together before marriage.

[@voncrowne6603]

Marriage laws in the US are punitive to men. I respect Peterson, but he's wrong on this one.

[@JoseLopez-eo4ze]

I think that's where he was coming from. These laws were rewritten overtime to support the new ideas of how society should conduct itself. As they both argued, this was essentially a mistake.

[@Questforenigma]

Both are true. Enforced monogamy requires punitive restrictions on both sexes equally. Something woefully missing on the female side these days. Women’s virtue had the highest value!

[@davidbacon9214]

After listening to this, I am very curious as to the origin of marriage and why multiple cultures instituted this practice. Was there a break from a group (clan, tribe, hunter/gathering) polygamous mentality for survival to preserve culture? Or a religious experience? Are we regressing?

[@cat67834]

What if you do meet someone else though? I'm not saying this always happens but for example, Rowan Atkinson has remarried and they've been together over 10 years. Ewan McGregor remarried. Hugh Jackman is now divorced. Nowadays I imagine someone might have had a couple of relationships/or less before getting married. JP has also said before that people lean towards monogamy, so that seems to be the state of things; as in that that's what people want. I think working on things is important however sometimes it does seem like people are unhappy and maybe married the wrong person idk.

[@Questforenigma]

Traditionally in the West long courtship was very much favoured. Our forebears definitely exhibited wisdom that’s sorely lacking today! It also shows that our forebears built a society that was built on the long game, not short term gratification. How we have fallen short today 🤦‍♂️

[@shanesawyer5103]

They were smarter than the average bear

[@nemam83]

Men not wanting to marry might have to do something with our judicial systems being ludicrously anti-male in that regard. Divorce courts tend to massively favour women and there definitely are those who would abuse it. So maybe it's not that much of a "I want to have other options" but more of a "I don't want you to have the power to ruin my life if you turn out to be a psycho".

[@facundomorera9762]

Interpersonal relationships shouldn't be enforced by outside forces. Some people have other kinds of relationships and that's up to them