No Narcissism Spectrum or Subtypes! New Neural Findings!

In this video, we're diving into a fascinating topic: the belief that there is a narcissistic spectrum, various subtypes of narcissism, and that everyone has narcissistic traits. This challenges the belief that there are different types of narcissists. In truth, it's more accurate to say that individual narcissists have varying levels of psychopathy.⁣ Let's explore what neuroscience has to say about it.
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© KimSaeed.com
Sources:
American Psychiatric Association. (2013). Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (5th ed.).
Kernberg, O. F. (2016). Narcissistic Personality Disorder. In G. O. Gabbard (Ed.), Gabbard’s Treatments of Psychiatric Disorders (5th ed.). American Psychiatric Publishing.
Pincus, A. L., & Lukowitsky, M. R. (2010). Pathological Narcissism and Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Annual Review of Clinical Psychology, 6, 421-446.
Psychological Medicine, Volume 41 , Issue 8 , August 2011 , pp. 1641 - 165
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www.psycheblog...
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[@skerrycampbell3658]

It's a relief to know I'm not on a spectrum with them. You either are or you aren't. Also, that it is a brain disease it helps put it in its proper place. This person is not workable. This person is best avoided. You can better separate yourself from them. Thank you for sharing this insight!

[@KimSaeed]

Yeah. The idea that everyone is a little narcissistic or has narcissistic traits never set well with me. So, I got to work on seeing if that was true or not. And it’s not, but mainstream psychology and old school therapists just love to say it is.

[@tranquility9325]

​@@KimSaeedexactly

[@denisedevoto5703]

I have always thought it was something different about their brains. Glad science is finding more about it.

[@MikeKollin]

The first time I heard that phrase: "Everyone Falls on the Spectrum of narcissism" I wondered who made that up? I always thought it was a narcissist because it gives them the perfect out. "Oh well we are all narcissists, thus it's okay!"

[@InvisibleWarrior279]

This is an interesting perspective for sure. Ever since my first encounter with someone who I believe to be a true narcissist (meaning having narcissistic personality disorder) almost 30 years ago I have felt that the people who most people call narcissists AREN’T. They are people who have strong narcissistic (call it self-centered, arrogant or whatever) traits. Basically they are just unpleasant, unlikeable people BUT not actual narcissists. I have crossed paths with another (I believe) actual narcissist since. And yes these “people” (in name only) are something entirely different that you can’t really understand unless you have experienced them yourself. They are the absence of a life force and yes - the entities’ goal is to suck the life force out of you and use it to temporarily survive until they can find a new life force to drain. They are a sub-species amongst us. And yes I too absolutely believe they are hardwired to be this way. It does help in not taking the experience personally. By and large we are not taught about this sub-species amongst us as children so we don’t know how to defend ourselves against it. But the good news is: we CAN (and must) learn!!

[@babybear19791]

I've finally concluded that I was raised by one. I finally started getting mental health counseling, at 43 and a lot of things came together. I started remembering more of the things my grandmother used to do. She was frequently accusing me of things, that I didn't even know anything about and I had wondered why I was being accused of things that no one else knew that they occurred. I was the teenager, but I would have happily opened up and had positive communication with my grandmother. Rebellious teenagers was something that always amazed me. I was always respectful and attempted to be communitive. I saw teenagers on TV shows, when I was a teenager and was also amazed that the teenagers had mature and respectful conversations with their parents. I figured out I had a parent with a mental level of a 5 year old, by my early teens. Attempting to ask her why she acted like she did, resulted in her telling me to shut-up, I was lying and trying to kill her. Then it was followed by a screaming and crying rage. She was doing that well into her 80s.

[@S070-g8q]

These are all things I suspected, but never was able to articulate so well.

[@stacielivinthedream8510]

Your information is up to date and above the rest! Very impressive!

[@KimSaeed]

I appreciate that! Thank you! :)

[@stacielivinthedream8510]

@@KimSaeed And I appreciate you! All others say the same things most know, but you are packed with knowledge and quite succinct on top of that! Thank you, Kim! 🫡

[@KimSaeed]

💖💗🥰💞

[@micheledeem4633]

❤this is exactly what I see

[@stacielivinthedream8510]

@micheledeem4633 Good to know that others are learning what Kim is sharing! I am actually surprised that others aren't sharing all of this information because it's kind of a shock to hear it as it's very different from the common knowledge, and so affirming to what I've experienced from these devils!

[@johnnytoronto1066]

Once you think about it, this is obvious since all survivors' stories are essentially the same. Thanks for the video.

[@1963keyboard]

Absolutely (predictable) makes complete sense. Thank you so much!

[@KimSaeed]

You are so welcome! :)

[@Imiike7]

Just because there may be no "spectrum" of brain structure (and we don't know this, the "studies" are not cited), doesn't mean there is not a spectrum in thought processes and behavior. Two people with identical brain injury will not display identical symptoms.

[@KimSaeed]

The studies are clearly listed under the video. As far as thought processes, I stated a few times that the brain structures are similar, along with reasons for differences in behavior. Brain injury can’t be compared to someone with the brain structure of a narcissist because head trauma usually affects different parts of the brain, whereas narcissists share the same brain abnormalities of specific parts of the brain.

[@liliya_aseeva]

@@KimSaeed Would be quite interesting to know what causes such changes to happen, for example, dietary deficiencies, radiation, polluted waters etc...

[@jennifergraham5615]

I was studying a lot on line and this helps with confusion over personality types and narcissism and how to keep our mind clear about it. It’s been a long road learning that’s for sure. Thank you:)

[@keithbarbaro7590]

Most narcissists here in NYC went to Catholic school and are drawn to jobs with authority. Police. School teacher. Court officer or clerk.

[@KimSaeed]

I can see that. They also enjoy becoming therapists, unfortunately.

[@maryshannon262]

Or were victims of physical and/ or sexual abuse who have had health issues for most of their adult lives. Some die relatively young from various illnesses......

[@maryshannon262]

I am speaking of the victims of narcissistic abuse.....and psychopathy

[@wascawywabbit0987]

They are the tares among the wheat.

[@evilbarbie2160]

​@@KimSaeedyes they are, screwed me up in 86, and worse in 2020 and this year... Like the abscess finally popped, and seeing right through all their sadistic psychological-spiritual warfare thats been going on so long.

[@richellepeace4457]

Demons. They could have done this all along just looking at frontal lobe function. This should be a required pass for any civil service work.

[@laniakeas92]

This. ^

[@laniakeas92]

And a test before allowing to have a child.

[@KimSaeed]

Perhaps that will happen one day, but I’m not sure it will be while we’re still alive.

[@babybear19791]

I couldn't agree more. My grandmother charmed DHS and got custody of me in 1980. She didn't start training me until 1984. I wished DHS could catch up with psychiatry. I can only imagine how many narcicisstic people get custody of multiple children. By the time my grandmother started training (physically, mentally, emotionally abusing) me, DHS that cares so much about the children, were long gone. They apparently didn't care much about me, to dump me in a hell and disappear. My narcissistic grandmother also destroyed my mother and taught my family that my mom was a troublemaker. By the time she got custody of me, I was the troublemaker, that also couldn't be trusted. I'm an Southern Baptist turned agnostic, but if there's a real Hell, I hope narcissistic parents are sitting in it and the members of DHS that enable narcicisstic parents. And the gaul of the narcissistic demon that raised me. The demon was always screaming that she hoped I had a wife and kids that gave me the hell I gave her. That was just her projection of her evil on me. I was underweight and bony, but I was overweight because my grandmother was. For the love of God, I hope DHS will eventually screens for narcissistic demon parents. I also hope they get a class-action lawsuit from all of the children they abandoned, their lives were permanently negatively affected and I would happily join.

[@stellablue7435]

Finally! Thank God! I always knew my kid was born this way. It was the 80's and it was all my fault according to experts and my child of course. Decades I sought the truth and ways to help my kid because my kid was one of 5 normal kids. How were the rest normal but I somehow managed to mess up the one? This information is life changing! Especially for parents who raised these kids. I am relieved!

[@jbvin]

This is very interesting. I wonder if these findings can help people who've been victimized and exhibit narcissistic mirroring traits as a result find more empathetic treatments.

[@KimSaeed]

I'm not really convinced of the concept of "narcissistic mirroring traits". This is a concept someone came up with and it took off like wildfire, like so much of what we see from mainstream psychology. As the video explains, someone is either a narcissist or not, according to their brain structure. There is no spectrum as far as brain structure is concerned. What you're describing has probably more to do with how many targets of abuse get sick and tired of it and decide to give the narcissist a taste of their own medicine.

[@evilbarbie2160]

I love Kim's response to this. Going through the recovery process I met a very evil side of myself... well it was my inner child wants to be loved, my inner teenager that wants revenge, (just to hurt them back)... but my grown up self wants peace, justice. I let my imagination put them through lots of humbling scenarios, but in reality, I want justice and for the cycles of normalizing abnormal behaviors to stop. But never acquired the tools in life to change that.

[@laniakeas92]

I think it's more logical to call this c/ptsd.

[@tranquility9325]

Their pre frontal cortex, the amygdala, the anterior insular cortex are all affected by their narcissism. Brain scans have, indeed, seen these differences. I was always offended by ppl saying everyone has narc traits. NO we do not! Ty for the insight, Kim!

[@lolabear6788]

I didn’t like the subsets, either. They either are or aren’t. Any differences are personal preferences of choice of behavior.

[@VestalNumbre]

Study the Bible

[@VestalNumbre]

Isaiah 10 Woe to those who enact harmful regulations,+ Who constantly draft oppressive decrees, 2

[@lolabear6788]

Wth does that even mean in the context of my comment?

[@VestalNumbre]

​Bible study is back up by holy spirit

[@lolabear6788]

Yeah, I’ve studied the Bible. The narcissist is the wicked man of the Bible. It is Cain’s response to the fall of man. His perceived lack and unbelief in a Good God or his soul having good value. However, even then, God said, sin crouches at your door, but you will rule over it. Both Cain and Abel can find salvation in the blood of Jesus Christ.

[@loritaveal5089]

Great video, very informative and provides clarity in areas of narcissism that ppl don’t discuss very often… The brain of a narcissist.

[@KimSaeed]

Thank you...yes, without factoring in the neurobiology of the narcissistic brain, there is far too much room for public figures to publish outdated and even inaccurate information.

[@gretgirl6750]

Does this mean that narcissists are BORN narcissists, or does it mean that their brains gradually change and adapt to their developing narcissism?

[@KimSaeed]

Mainstream psychology loves to say that narcissism is due to a bad childhood, but it has genetic roots. Even an ideal childhood won’t necessarily stop them from becoming narcissistic.

[@k.s783]

There’s subtypes in the sense that a person’s environment and personality influences the way their underlying brain anatomy manifests. The fact that a brain scan can show that a certain individual’s brain is consistent with that of a narcissist doesn’t necessarily negate that it shows up differently in life. Saying there’s no spectrum is similar to saying every person with schizophrenia will act in identical ways. I do think there’s more overlap between psychopathy and narcissism than popular culture likes to admit. Having personal experiences with a professionally diagnosed narcissist it’s quite shocking how callous they are. The idea that they have an insecure and vulnerable core is inconsistent with their lack of empathy. If you have empathy you have the ability to understand others’ emotions, this means you must first learn about those emotions in yourself. Narcissists don’t seem to have this ability. They lack the capacity to feel empathy for others and for themselves. People confuse a narcissist’s hurt ego with vulnerability. It’s not vulnerability, it’s them feeling angry or frustrated over being perceived as “less than” or lacking. They truly feel superior to others and when people don’t act consistent with this conviction it creates cognitive dissonance in their minds. That’s the distress we may perceive as insecurity or vulnerability. It’s not. It’s just them being dissatisfied over the fact that others overlook or deny how important and valuable they really are.

[@IanMcFerran]

I think a video like this needs to be presented slower - there are virtually no breaks between sentences, no allowing the listener to process the sentence that has just gone.

[@KimSaeed]

Okay. Will do.

[@shobhnakapoor1399]

Change the playback speed. The top right icon that looks like a wheel

[@lolabear6788]

Thank you! Great information.

[@KimSaeed]

Thanks for watching! :)

[@par2788]

I always secretly knew that narcissists feel no shame. They don't have any feelings. I live with one of them. Being a narcissist is a gift for the narcissist and a misery to others. In fact they do feel incredible.

[@RexApplegate]

Were any of the rare and extremely hard to spot self aware "greater" narcissists examined for this study? I'm a far cry from a neuro scientist, but the idea that a greater narcissist and a lower lesser would have indistinguishable brain functions under scanning seems quite far fetched, and very remarkable if confirmed. I would agree with personality type being something that needs to be examined better, because I think my ex narc wife is an INFJ, same as me. HG Tudor in fact has largely already accomplished that pretty thoroughly with his far more developed and easily understood system to comprehend narcs interface to the rest of society vs the DSM and MBTI.

[@KimSaeed]

It takes 10-13 years of study to become a neuroscientist or neuropsychologist. Therefore, any studies that are published in that field are highly credible, compared to speculation or personal biases, as can happen in mainstream psychology. The differences in various narcissistic behaviors have to do with 1) their personality separate from brain structure and 2) the level of psychopathy they possess. In short, there isn’t really a narcissistic spectrum, but a spectrum of psychopathy. These studies have actually been around for a while, but a lot of people prefer the information published by mainstream psychology, even though it’s often incomplete or inaccurate. HG Tudor has some great material, but no one’s system is complete without including the neurobiology of narcissism and psychopathy. Therefore it’s not “far more developed”, even though he describes the thought processes of narcissists well.

[@RexApplegate]

@@KimSaeed excellent explanation, thank you. For clarity, I am saying HG's system is far more accomplished at personality profiling. I don't know that he knows or frankly even cares what the neurobiological implications are, beyond the fact it's apparently a permanent condition with no real cure.

[@mac-ju5ot]

My neigbhors are ex drinkers and I often wonder if they have Korsakoff's

[@arsenelupiniii8040]

I discovered that those with high Trait narcissism are very shame avoidant. just like children are. Add to that that many of them can only mature to about a 15 year old capacity. And that would be their arrested development, brain physiology would likely help this illness into fruition, likely a genetic link, I have heard of a certain gene, DNST3 that some humans are absolutely devoid of, it is observed through their lack of empathy.

[@KimSaeed]

It’s not necessarily that they’re shame avoidant. They simply don’t experience it because of their brain abnormalities, in the same way they don’t experience empathy, guilt, or remorse. But yes, narcissism is largely influenced by genetics.

[@Dana-ey1vm]

What I have found is that they can manipulate to appear they have shame even showing tears like everyone else and appear to have empathy. Although in my own experience they only "show" both when they are exposed and confronted about certain behavior and/or about to lose someone like a significant other. Or when they are trying to pull someone back into the abusive relationship. Can you explain how they can act like they have shame with even tears sometimes even sobbing. It seems in the moment they are being genuine expressing their emotions. Also genuine when they act lack they do have empathy. ​@@KimSaeed

[@alethea6781]

It would be helpful if you cited studies. I’d like to look them up.

[@Ldlax40]

I would question if the current fMRI paradigms and study design have the ability to differentiate narcissistic subtypes. There is a lot we don't understand about the ability of a hyper-stimulated Salience network to modulate the interplay of the default mode network and the frontoparietal network. In theory this could lead to excessive attention on self. In the current highly attention demanding environment it makes me wonder if we are training individuals to be narcissists.

[@KimSaeed]

The subtypes, in my opinion, have more to do with individual differences. Differences that all of us have, such as introvert vs. extrovert, etc. The neurobiological component determines an individual's level of narcissism, meaning the salience system you referenced. Simply speaking, narcissists have a similar brain structure as psychopaths. Thus, their level of psychopathy, along with their regular personality traits (i.e., introvert v extrovert) have more to do with seeming subtypes as opposed to different "subtypes" of narcissists.

[@Imallik2772]

Why all narc Are same and why all get a same experience with a narc.

[@jjjjk1241]

Thank you for spreading this new information! Does this mean lobotomies are in order? Now that we know this, what is the treatment for someone with NPD?

[@KimSaeed]

For all intents and purposes, there is no treatment. Mainstream psychology loves to say otherwise, but no one is going on Oprah talking about how their narcissist changed with the right treatment. If there were a successful treatment, that person or institution would be the richest in the world.

[@jjjjk1241]

@@KimSaeed yes, I understand that this has been the case. I was wondering if with this new research that could change. Now that we know it is a measurable brain pattern, if I’m stating that correctly.

[@hiraijo1582]

Wieder einmal das Henne/Ei problem. Wir machen einen Scan und sehen bei Narzissten typische Veränderungen. Aber wer sagt, dass diese veränderungen die Ursache für Narzissmus sind? Vielleicht haben sie sich ja erst im Laufe des Lebens durch wiederholtes Verhalten entwickelt? Neuroplastizität ist ja schon länger bekannt. Ich finde die Schlüsse, die hier gezogen werden sehr gewagt und etwas fragwürdig.

[@solideogloria007]

Absolut. Neuroplastizität ist ein Fakt.

[@KimSaeed]

There are genetic influences, including inheriting the narcissistic brain structure. This is not new information, but it's information that's not commonly found in mainstream psychology with its focus on outdated theories and concepts. It's not a chicken or egg situation. They are born with a predisposition, and then environment can possibly cause it to become deeper. However, it's also been shown many times over that a person born with the predisposition can have a fairly ideal childhood and still become a narcissist. The nature vs. nurture is a favorite narrative, but neuroscience/neuropsychology has more clear-cut answers. While the brain’s remarkable plasticity holds immense potential for personal growth and transformation, it is not a panacea for all psychological and neurological deficits. In the case of narcissistic personality disorder, the profound empathy deficits are deeply rooted in a complex interplay of neurological, psychological, and environmental factors. Neuroplasticity cannot overcome these deep-seated impairments; it requires a foundation of at least some basic empathic abilities upon which to build and strengthen new neural connections. For narcissists, whose empathy-related brain circuitry and emotional processing abilities are often severely compromised from an early age, relying on neuroplasticity to develop empathy is an unrealistic expectation.

[@hiraijo1582]

@@KimSaeed Nun. Das ist ihre Meinung. Ich bin Ärztin in Pension und habe schon so viele Genentdeckungen miterlebt, sei es nun die Prädisposition für diverse Erkrankungen, Krebs, Adipositas, Sucht, etc.. Was nie dazu gesagt wird, dass viele mit denselben Genen diese Erkrankungen nie entwickeln. Also benötigt es wohl doch Umwelt- oder Lebensstilfaktoren um diese Gene zu aktivieren. Aus der Neurowissenschaft weiß man auch, dass das Gehirn sich im Laufe des Lebens verändert durch Toxine, Drogen, Medikamente aber auch durch die Art der Ernährung und durch wiederholtes Verhalten, also lernen, üben. Interessant ist, dass das Lernen vom Betreffenden gewollt sein muss, also im Sinne von: Man lernt nur, was man lernen will. Ich bin also ihrer Meinung, dass Narzissmus nicht heilbar ist aber nicht weil eine angeborene Komponente diese Menschen zwingt empathielos zu sein, sondern weil sie diesen Weg gewählt haben und ihn auch nicht ändern wollen. Wenn es um Geld und Macht geht ist Narzissmus ein Vorteil und dieses Verhalten wird in unserer Gesellschaft auch belohnt.

[@Imallik2772]

This is TRUE

[@keithstewart7514]

Behind the Mask of my MoMster... Just Another mask & STILL a Mom 4a MoMster!

[@nugget6635]

Technically it's just narcissist. The "subtypes" are different masks used by them. For example grandiose narcissist has a mask of high self-esteem. Covert narcissist has the mask of vulnerability. In any case... It's always a mask.

[@nibornnyw3185]

Nothing. There's nothing back there at all. Totally empty.

[@kristinmeyer489]

They're getting this information you're so excited about by torturing innocent people. You really should know this, if you consider yourself to be a person with a soul.

[@KimSaeed]

First, they can't perform brain scans without court order, a doctor's recommendation, or someone's permission. Second, it's not torture, and certainly not on innocent people. Not sure where you came up with that. It's not like they're putting electrodes directly on someone's brain. You might want to do a little research of your own.