LDS Church Fined $5 Million for Hiding Money w/ Mark Pugsley | Ep. 1732

[@mgeuleinstsear]

A few years ago, while my husband and I were still attending church, my husband stopped paying tithing because he didn’t like that the Church wasn’t open about its finances. We then decided to always donate our „tithing money“ to family members and friends around us who really need it. This way, we know exactly what is happening with our hard-earned money. Looking back, it was the best decision ever, even though it cost us our temple recommends ♥️

[@Mizzlenum]

yup, better than being stashed somewhere doing nothing, while needy members are told they are in need because they don't pay tithing. One time in Guatemala a church leader was given a speech told a story when he was a kid one day his dad gave to the church all they had for food, and that same day some member who they didn't didn't know, came to their home with boxes of food, and he related that as a blessing; and indeed it was a blessing but maybe from some member like you who decided not to give to the church instead to a needy family.

[@kwobee3745]

D&C 137

[@MrPaultopp]

It costs nothing to go to church, praying doesn’t cost a penny ….God doesn’t need money, he needs you to believe only . A human being / paster needs the money to make their pockets full , nothing to do with God

[@mgeuleinstsear]

@@MrPaultopp I mean, it’s okay for churches to take some money to pay for new buildings, maintenance, pay their workers, donations, etc, but the Church definitely owns a very excessive amount of money for „rainy days“. I wonder what happened to President Joseph F. Smith‘s promise to the members of the Church at the General Conference in 1907: „We expect to see the day when we will not have to ask you for one dollar of donation for any purpose... because we will have tithes sufficient in the storehouse of the Lord to pay everything that is needful for... the kingdom of God."

[@MrRickb75645]

​@@mgeuleinstsear we are not there yet. But here is the problem. The church is perfect. But the people are not. In the last days 50 percent will drop away and before the end , 50 percent of them will also drop away. And evil will come for the church in every aspect and seem to be doing good. And those who are paying tithe . It's because you own nothing. It all belongs to God. You have all that you have because of God . 5his is his earth . Not yours. And every thing on it . Including you. And all he ask , is 10 percent of what you make. And that is to keep up his church and his people who are less blessed than your selves. And I've seen this myself. When I've needed it and when I've had a lot myself. I've been on both sides of the spectrum. He is hoping we have love and faith. It's for our benefit not his.

[@elwren75]

Oakes was once a part of the Utah Supreme Court, and was twice considered for the U.S. Supreme Court. He also studied accounting in college. That makes these actions even more disturbing. He knew better.

[@jon952]

Someone needs to remind the first presidency about "upholding, honoring, and sustaining the law."

[@sinisterhug1394]

Well shoot, who’s going to take their Temple recommends away?? 😂

[@jonathangatto]

That's not against the law

[@berdytv3739]

Yes your right

[@JC-vq2cs]

I am extremely disappointed that the fines were so low for 22 years of intentional illegal behavior signed off by the 1st Presidency - which has included MBAs & a former Utah Supreme Court Justice, Oaks, who happens to be next in line as president & corporation sole leader. This is such a trivial sum & the US treasury should have gotten 100x more from an otherwise tax exempt organization that isn't doing much real charity given its massive assets. Please do much better, CJCLDS - there is so much need globally + right here in Utah.

[@JC-vq2cs]

Why were no individual charges or fines made against individuals? (yet?). ~1:30 Mark & John discuss "misfiling" of 13F required disclosure forms by token church employee "managers" of deliberately deceptive clone LLCs with no actual assets. Someone or a team - senior manager/s - at Ensign Peak had to have prepared the 13Fs because the LLC managers had no assets so no clue. Those people + the senior leadership are the culprits, the LLC managers were "following orders" ( not that that makes it right). White collar crime is OK by churches as lying for the lord?? Do all these people still have temple recommends? Where are the "courts of love" for them for not being honest in their dealings? I glad at least some active members seem just as upset by this. The settlement document is eye-opening, ty for explaining it. Will contact senators for sure after reading the links.

[@deejayohdumb]

As an accountant that studied ethics and compliance with law, especially with the SEC regulations, I am totally disappointed in who I used to revere as prophets, seers and revelators. I’m probably going to resign over this.

[@TS-iv9ml]

It has cemented our walking away.

[@charlesmendeley9823]

​@@736748402east since you seem to have a strong testimony, could you refer me to the scriptures talking about investment arms of Christ's church? Thanks in advance.

[@charlesmendeley9823]

@@736748402east still waiting for your answer. Mr. supersmart surely was the scripture hunt champion, weren't you?

[@charlesmendeley9823]

@Randy G Yes, shame, guilt and gaslighting is the holy Trinity of Mormonism.

[@charlesmendeley9823]

@@736748402east I am José Mourinho. Lol, my account is as real as the Book of Mormon.

[@mariannedwyer8402]

I’m upset that my tithing was used to disobey the law. I want it back.

[@lesterrivers8804]

People go to jail for this kind of staff .

[@singingcatfishagain]

Just called the Senate Finance Committee and the person on the phone actually asked if my call was related to the Church of LDS. Clearly many other people are asking for an investigation!

[@fellowviewer1095]

Very good to hear!

[@marieb1422]

Called the DC number today and left a message. Urged them to hold a public hearing and to also take a look at the church's public response, which seems to flout the agreement of the order. Thanks for the contact information!

[@jameswalberg3265]

Mormon Stories is hitting new heights. Credible reporting on the LDS church from insiders. God bless the whistle blowers and Mormon Stories for giving them voice. If there was a Pulitzer for podcasting Mormon Stories would be a shoe in. Over the last few years, you just get better and better. An appreciative never Mormon (me). Thank you so much fpr so quickly. addressing this event. i pray that you and Mark don't get fair gamed. Endless corruption and deceit.to be exposed.

[@mr.s2005]

Not even close, but I guess jumping 2 inches is a new height for them. They just keep playing the same game most politicians and other youtubers do, rely on shock value for 15 minutes of fame while they prance around pretending they found something historic. When that fails, they have wait for something else "big" to happen so they can once again pretend they exposed something when all they are doing is talking about stuff everybody already heard and has already brushed off. Note, its been over a month since that story broke. If they were telling the truth and some major crime took place here at the federal level involving that much money being "hidden", then why were there zero arrests that took place...hm...like every other case involving money being hidden or scammed. The church paid the fine, which appears to be rather light considering how much money was supposedly hidden, and now nobody is talking about. Why because nobody, mostly likely not even you, cares about this anymore since at this point even I'm sure you actually are smart enough to realize this was just smoke with no fire when claiming something illegal happened.

[@hankbrock8609]

Correction: Mormon Stories is hitting new lows. Subtle & cunning, just like Gen.3:1.

[@jaredlopez2926]

@@hankbrock8609 zing! Lol. What part of this detailed, factual, and well-researched interview do you disagree with? Is the “Spirit” telling you his facts are wrong? Facts trump feelings.

[@Valeriamtzp]

​@@jaredlopez2926Lol, clearly this is too damning that even the most faithful members are struggling to defend it and their only option is restoring to discredit mormon stories podcast like the comment above yours

[@cherrybakewell1338]

Incredible to have such a detailed explanation. More Mark Pugsley please 🕊💌

[@Mizzlenum]

I'll be paying attention to general conference in April and see who's gonna be the one with the audacity to give a speech about tithing.

[@eag11e]

Hahahaha, good one!

[@timhazeltine3256]

They have no shame, so expect the usual.

[@honestyjones4101]

Wasn't there a statement from the church that "they consider the matter closed"... ummm, WTAF??? Questions obviously need to be answered but there is such a strong dynamic in the church that any discussion that "questions" (basically anything) is immediately framed as "encouraging apostasy", or "That’s being an apostate". Shuts down any questioning quite effectively.

[@bookslikewhoa]

Great guest & great convo making the legalese comprehensible. Thinking about this level of selfish hoarding of wealth makes me sick- if I had even a fraction of that, I would have the best time *actually* helping people and making the world a better place

[@tawnyachristensen7310]

Amen

[@michelemiller3798]

The church should be spending those $BILLIONS taking care of the needy. Particularly the women who got married & had kids, not getting a degree or having a career because they were told over & over that that's what they should do. But when their priesthood holding husband left for whatever reason - often for a younger, prettier woman - they fell into poverty. Those needy families are some of the people the church should be paying their mortgage, food, clothes, etc. And the men who were abusive &/or just abandoned their families should lose their temple reccomends!

[@blossom7582]

Mark Pugsley, making law and fraud hilarious, I could listen to this guy slay the church all day, not boring at all.

[@62Loralee]

I was the whistleblower on Henry Technical services in Fairfax VA. The bishop CEO of Henry tech and his team Susan Sutton namely soaked hundreds of thousands out of ward and stake members. I gathered info together as i was an employee and shut them down. I did hear some of the owners went to prison. I had guts and information for tax evasion etc

[@mlebaron1]

OK, so which of the decision-makers are going to go to jail? I mean, this makes the Martha Stewart scandal look like driving 26 in a 25 zone.

[@madisonc489]

This is just so frustrating. I grew up with food scarcity and my parents have filled bankruptcy due to medical bills three times. Yet my parents continue to give 10 percent of their income away due to the fear of not being let into heaven. Or what's worse, they believe that if they don't pay tithing their finances will become worse.

[@lauraIngleswilder74]

That is the problem with the Mormon church. We can not earn our way to heaven. It is only by grace through faith. FAITH IS A GIFT FROM GOD. The Bible says our righteousness is like filthy rags. If we have to earn our salvation there would be zero people in heaven.

[@rebeccacall7348]

It's basically a huge scam that people are afraid to stop paying into because they're in too deep to give up on the reward now.

[@sc766]

Horrible! My MIL pays tithing on her tiny amount social security, no saving, is on food stamps and medicaid ...

[@deb6519]

Sooo sad 😭 and I've had a huge fight with my family because they continue to pay their tithing to the richest Church corporation on the planet yet we have family members that are in need where their money could be much better utilized!!!!

[@NateMeservy]

I can relate to your experience. It's crazy that a church that claims to represent Jesus takes advantage of the poor instead of helping the poor.

[@MorganNightshade3110]

Remember, the Church now considers the matter "closed"! It is NOT closed! The Church has significant numbers of membership that deserve forthright and HONEST explanations and some heartfelt churchwide repentance from the church leadership! But, in the end, membership has been bullied into never questioning the leadership! Stop being sheep, and start questioning! Demand Church wide accountability in their behaviours! Nothing will change until there is true accountability!

[@amdobler]

We thank thee o God for a PROFIT!

[@rebeccacall7348]

Good one. Lol

[@deb6519]

🤣🤣🤣

[@starguy2718]

Ah yes, the LD$ Church.

[@rebeccacall7348]

@@starguy2718 Another good burn! Lol

[@s.c.581]

Lol, good one.

[@troysnuffles]

That $5M fine is less than what the LDS fund earns in one hour. They have no incentive not to commit fraud.

[@ThisEveinEvening]

The tithes 💸 must be REFUNDED.

[@jmoney8962]

I want ALL my tithes and offerings that I paid BACK. Shame shame! I’m glad I am no longer a LDS SHEEP.

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

I love that Mormon Stories reviews actual documents (goes through them step by step), brings on experts and readily admits when commentary may be true or untrue. I also love the personal stories. This podcast has blessed my life in a BIG AWESOME way. ❤️❤️❤️

[@ThisEveinEvening]

I noticed that. I appreciate that so much

[@nymphalisantiopa3888]

Last week my branch president drew up a rota to clean the building. I work long hours full time, struggle to put fuel in the car, struggle to pay for food and heating and rent but pay tithing, and they have been doing THIS with my money while pontificating from a pulpit about my failings and faults and my need to repent, it sticks in the throat as an active member of 35 years who has served, free of charge, in every calling that I've been asked to do.

[@tuesdaycurtis163]

Leave, it's not a church but a corporate organisation. It's a Cult. Took me 52 yrs to figure this out. But being out is so less stressful and I still get blessings from the most high God of this world.

[@TS-iv9ml]

​@@tuesdaycurtis163we found this too. My relationship with my Savior is personal and intimate which does not require another layer of "modern day dishonest money changers in the temple". Absolute power & love of money proceeds the fall. 50+ years of being the obedient minion service, Now I know true JOY authored thru my Savior 💝✨️

[@PetsNPatients]

Sad

[@FFM115]

It should be obvious by now that this is not a church of God any longer. It’s s business.

[@FFM115]

@@736748402east I don’t what part of the scriptures that you don’t understand. Even the Book of Mormon condemns priestcraft, wealth accumulation, inequality among believers, etc. Zion which what God always intended to have does not require or need HR, accounts, lawyers, investors, businesses men, etc.

[@marciesteinhour5752]

Our Bishop used to ask if we were gambling, which included stocks. To find out that they were invested in the stock market is just one more reason I'm glad I left the church.

[@nunyayoung5936]

...and my Uncle was called to be a temporary Bishop in a ward where someone was using Tithes to pay their own car payments and stuff. So what!! I thought it was horrendous when it happened 30 years ago, then I realized God already knew it was happening. THIS IS A PROBATION. Its where we get to choose evil or righteousness. Do you force your children to always do things your way or do you give them opportunity to make their own decisions and learn? This is a one room school house and we are all here learning and making mistakes and growing and falling down. Does ANYONE HERE actually believe in Jesus Christ and what I has told us? All that matters is that you use your daily opportunities to prove that you can be trusted with greater knowledge and power without succumbing to wickedness in addition to practicing all that the Savior teaches us. When you decide to get serious about this, you wont have time to worry about what everyone else 'thinks' about anything, because you'll be going to the Lord to find out if its even relevant to your progression and plan.

[@supertal6074]

That is stupid - no leader of any Church will say the stock market is gambling -it's investing. Quite spreading dumb lies!

[@fellowviewer1095]

Did he include 401ks in that? Ridiculous!

[@heyman537]

I don't know who your bishop was but if this happened it certainly isn't church policy.

[@ryanhollist3950]

Such a pathetically small amount of penalties for hiding such a massive amount of money. It's not even a penalty, just a simple cost of doing business fine at this point.

[@christinewilkinson5705]

Probably because they have their hands on everything political etc as well and know too many influential people who can influence whether they get a slap on the wrists or a heavy penalty. The average person would be facing huge penalties probably.

[@judysocal8682]

When I saw the story my first thought was -chump change.

[@joshuatoro8977]

I think the church should have been penalized more because they're just going to do it again

[@orlandovasquez7411]

The Church doesn't need to hide anything, it just keeps it sacred and private from the world... The Church and members obey and sustain the law of the country anywhere we live... ""We are the light of the world""

[@deb6519]

I think it was a slap-on-the-wrist but now they know that they got the government's attention.. so kind of a warning to watch out!!!

[@tylernorth6531]

One thing that absolutely bothered me when going through my faith deconstruction was how if I decided to give my tithing money to other charities, I would not be eligible for a temple recommend. Sure, you may win “bishop roulette” and get a progressive bishop that understands, but the fact is the temple promises include giving your tithing money to the church. When you realize that donations as small as $25 can restore sight to the blind (Himalayan Cataract Project), it’s appalling they demand first rights to your donations. And when you realize they have billions, they don’t need your money, but you can’t “be faithful” and devote 10% of your money to other causes and be “worthy”. Call placed to senate finance committee.

[@melissagarcia8169]

They got a slap on the wrist. So annoying they’ll probably keep doing it and just keep paying the 5mil

[@brannonorton3470]

Agreed, this is actually good business for them. The 5 million dollar penalty is miniscule compared to what they have made.

[@mr_ekshun]

Fines such as these are just the cost of doing business in the eyes of big corporations like the Church

[@beetles1964]

The real blow is the members finding out about it, which will hopefully lead to at least some eventually leaving. The church said in their statement that they are cooperating with the government and won't do it again. I'm guessing the bad press is more persuasive to them by far than the $5m, as far as not doing it again.

[@sunflowerbaby1853]

So if a member did something shady like this they would be kicked out, right? Well who is being held responsible and who is being kicked out?

[@barbaranavin2738]

And their little "slap on the wrist" could have done so much good helping earthquake victims in Turkey and Syria - if only 1) they'd been honest, and 2) they were willing to help those victims.

[@honestyjones4101]

I'm so unbelievably angry about this. I grew up Mormon all my life and when I think about my parents, who were faithful tithe payers all their lives, they sent my sister on a mission, sent ALL my older siblings to Church College all at great financial sacrifice. I can remember that meant they only had enough money to feed us soup and scones. They were faithful all their lives and died with NOTHING simply because of literal decades of paying tithing and providing for others, sometimes at the expense of their own children - all because of their unshakable faith in what is becoming clear is just an advanced PONZI schemes. I actually don't know how to process how appalled I am.

[@TS-iv9ml]

U are in good company... realize you are now part of the great awakening happening preparing for the second coming 💖 now you can & will move forward, healing, changing, and becoming who you truly are 🎁 not the minion on the hamster wheel. 💗 🫂

[@mszstm7427]

I’m so sorry. That must be quite a shock and heartbreaking.

[@heidisorenson4678]

Amen

[@DanielJesseLife]

I have had instances in my life - not so long ago, where I was in actual need of monetary assistance. I lived in downtown SLC. And my branch president acted as though the funds were coming from his own pocket, it was such a humiliating and demoralizing experience. I'm out of the church for different reasons other than that, but that is just par for the course.

[@brasguven742]

@@736748402east and a rude man is more manly. Financial hardship does not make a man less a man.

[@nunyayoung5936]

Youre asking for Tithe money that other people have sacrificed to give and you dont think they should be skeptical and ask you questions? Those people believe they are responsible to GOD for the decisions they make with that money dude, as all faith's feel. Wanna know why no other churches have a much as the mormon church does? Because no other congregations TRUST THEIR LEADERS TO BE CAREFUL WITH IT! I have in-laws that are mormon and though I not one of them they helped me. I didnt feel any of what you described when I went for help 5 years ago, so that's on you and your personal perspective.

[@brasguven742]

@@nunyayoung5936 Assistance comes from Fast Offering and not tithes. Tithe funds is never used to help anyone. Those who give fast offerings know their money go to helping others. Everyone has different experiences in terms of need and how it when for them.

[@DanielJesseLife]

@@nunyayoung5936 Thank you for your analysis of my life.

[@celinhahemi2034]

So easy to judge people without knowing their life’s circumstances. As a young woman, no parents to care for me and my siblings, I was called by my bishop for an interview. Knowing my predicament, all he had to ask was why I wasn’t paying tithing. I was only a few months behind. I told him, I didn’t have any money, not even for food and other essentials. I asked for help. I had always paid tithing… he told me he couldn’t help me because I wasn’t paying tithing, disregarding my whole life in church, and my circumstances. That was an interesting moment, being abandoned in my time of need by the church I lived for. I witnessed that happen again, in different places and wards, to friends of mine who were very devoted to their faith, and obedient members of the church… they were refused help that they needed during a short moment of transition in their lives. Abandoned by the church of Jesus Christ.

[@sdfotodude]

They would have happily paid $100 million to have this matter closed and nobody know about it.

[@gladtobefreeagain7375]

Who's to say they haven't paid $100 million over the last 50 years to buy, sorry influence, state & federal politicians & judges who would write & interpret corporate tax law & SEC penalties. Corporations pay next to nothing in taxes. Elon & Jeff combined have less wealth than LDS Corporation. Huge incentive to hoard church wealth. Money is power. Just us little people pay taxes. /s

[@sdfotodude]

@@gladtobefreeagain7375 what if there were a Class Action lawsuit for back tithing that was obtained via the fraud of hiding its true purposes from members.

[@gladtobefreeagain7375]

@Richard Pecjak RFM posed question about law suits (class action would be good) against church for corporate fraud during the years ownership was illegally hidden from members & general public. Damages could be quite creative. Maybe a charity could be established as sort of a parable for corporate church leaders.

[@sdfotodude]

@@gladtobefreeagain7375 I am absolutely positive each and every member of the class action suit will probably go along with that. Otherwise may God bless them on their journey to get theirs

[@wendiclanton7003]

My knees are literally shaking and my stomach is turning as I listen to this.

[@vapixel]

Each time that the LDS Church announces that they are building a new Temple, they ought to be obligated to release of the names of 100 LLC entities connected to the First Presidency.

[@RampidWarthogStudios]

Hey, I just want to say I really enjoy your content. I’m an active Mormon… maybe consider a black sheep but I’m purely in it for the gospel…. Organized religion part… not so much.. served a mission and shaped a lot of my views that line up with a lot of thing discussed on this show. I believe in challenging my beliefs and not being a blind sheep…. And with all that said I just want to say thank you for covering this. I’m pretty heartbroken over this news but you guys did an amazing job breaking it down. I’m just interested if the church will try to say anything else or just try and sweep it under the rug. Thanks again (Also I love having these kind of conversations you do on the show) 😉

[@davidfarmer7581]

JustN claiming a belief and calling yourself a black sheep seems strange... It's ok to question things I get it! But don't let the advasary shape your opinion with gossip. Would you make financial decisions based on gossip? you wouldn't.

[@RampidWarthogStudios]

@Randy G I don’t mind at all. I get this a lot and I’m not sure my answer will make much sense. But a lot of it’s just based off my mission, a lot of personal things happen over the two years that really solidify my faith in God and the Gospel, including the Book of Mormon. So I guess the easiest way for me to explain it is I do believe in the church but the culture is what I distance myself from. I take what the prophet says with a grain of salt and come to decide if it’s actually true or not for myself rather than taking it as face value. This news about the church is very concerning I can’t lie, but like I said, a lot of it comes down to personal experiences that I just can’t really deny that there’s something there, something good with the church and I just want it to reach its full potential. But I’m not too sure if it can as of right now. Idk if my rambling made much sense and maybe some of it is a bit hopeful… but anything can change I suppose… I just try to be careful when considering leaving the church, for lots of reasons, family being one. I couldn’t bear the feeling of breaking my grandfathers heart even if i did want to leave but that’s why 😅

[@RampidWarthogStudios]

@@davidfarmer7581 my opinion hasn’t changed brotha. I still love the church. But there are flaws I cant overlook. I call myself a black sheep because I tend to view things differently. For example I see no issue with tattoos, it’s not doctrine only opinions from prophets…. But it grinds my gears when opinions are passed as doctrine “that’s be best I can explain it. I guess church culture is something I’m very against, that could be another explanation. But I’m only in it for the gospel teaching and learning about Christ. But I don’t think this is gossip If the church is saying it happened. I wanna know more and decide for myself before jumping to conclusions.

[@RampidWarthogStudios]

@Randy G also wanted to say that I believe that anyone who desires to be in heaven or just happy in the next life will have exactly that. I don’t believe you need to be Mormon to “make it” I value genuine kindness and doing good more than what denomination you follow… just a side note I felt worth mentioning

[@RampidWarthogStudios]

@Randy G love that. I really hate the negativity around people who decide to leave. We’re here to find joy after all so go find it. But I appreciate the chat. It’s always fun talking about these things

[@AnnetteB-705]

Thanks!

[@LilyGold]

I’m a struggling member of the church, and it’s so frustrating that fellow members don’t want to talk about this. They immediately say that the church leaders must not have known and then they want to change the subject.

[@isaacmoore6803]

When that happens, it’s hard to dismiss the cult mentality the church instills in their members, who can’t admit their church leaders can do anything wrong.

[@matthewmitchell68]

It’s amazing going to a church that asks us what we want to do with our tithing money, we get to decide as a congregation where it goes. Plus my pastor tells me he is so glad and happy that I show up to church and everyone is so friendly, THAT NEVER HAPPENS IN LDS church!

[@swaneespeedramsey6080]

Yes,spill the tea on all the real estate investment properties. Let’s talk about their taxable entities.

[@dm-dk5lm]

I wonder if the timing of violating the law coincided with removing the question of honest business dealings from the temple recommend interview 🤔

[@beetles1964]

Whaaaaaat I didn't realize they took that out 😂😂😂

[@danconcompany9285]

It was simplified to say "Do you strive to be honest in all that you do?"

[@dm-dk5lm]

@@danconcompany9285that isn't asking the same thing. That's the kind question you ask when you want to open the door to easily justify doing crappy things.

[@danconcompany9285]

@user-fo3is4bo5f No, it's not exactly the same. But it is quite incorrect to say that the question was removed. The previous question was "Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?" Business dealings weren't specifically mentioned even before the change. Personally, I think that the current phrasing sounds more all-inclusive and applicable to more than just business. Don't get me wrong, I'm not disputing that the First Presidency was dishonest in concealing church assets, and I don't think they would be able to honestly answer Yes either before or after the question was changed.

[@marilynclawson]

What bothers me so much about all this………The very poor members that have to choose between FOOD for their family or tithing.

[@Sstarr77]

Because of this settlement, could it be argued in a court that tithe payers were misled about their tithes? Could that lead to anything?

[@mormonstories]

That’s the James Huntsman case in California.

[@Sstarr77]

@@mormonstories I didn't realize that was the basis for it! Have you done an episode on that case?

[@Chococatania]

I hope so. Maybe we will get our money back.

[@jennifershray4962]

How does the LDS church keep its tax-exempt status?

[@caseyjude5472]

They own several politicians & joined with other theocrats (including the great Satan) to lobby even more politicians. They also fund their propaganda & propaganda with other theocrats to influence Americans.

[@heatherbruce1668]

Just an excellent question! They should not be tax exempt in any way

[@realbedo]

as far as I know it's because they're regarded to as a religion. If that's wrong please correct me

[@orlandovasquez7411]

We the Church and members obey and sustain the law of the country. We are the light of the world...

[@realbedo]

@@jaykingplays so basically because they lied and said they were a small church and such

[@dalesnow1761]

Remember when the policy was to have the members clean all the church buildings to help reduce expenditures so the church could save money. Lol. Never have and don’t plan on going to help clean the chapel anytime soon.

[@cindystevens6692]

Amen to that one!!

[@Mizzlenum]

Don't they still practice that in some countries?

[@believeinnature8930]

I did it many times in Utah! No anymore! It hurts to know that they just took advantage of our good hearts!

[@barbarasmith2130]

We do that (clean the buildings) in Australia

[@Mizzlenum]

In the country I grew up in the '80s some members made a living as janitors for the chapels including my brother who took me with him sometimes to help. But I don't remember which year they fire them and asked the members to do it and it's that way now.

[@corbinbrodie2636]

John made me chuckle when he said the Church not only doesn't need tithing any more it doesn't even need members. I had this sudden image in my head that the end of the church is literally no more members. Just the first presidency standing in the freezing rain in the middle of 50 acres of empty land in Jackson County, Missouri that they bought, along with 10,000 wheelbarrows piled high with cash.

[@lydiavui1029]

Brilliant - and have Christ return to Jerusalem instead of Missouri and so they would be still standing there waiting all by them selves.

[@qtasabutton21]

My thought that came to my mind was a terrible disaster happening and the church building a place for its faithful members and allowing them to live there while the rest of the world crumbles and is in shambles??? Maybe they know something we don’t know about what’s to come in this new world?? ???

[@heyman537]

@therealz 360z A little bit of drama there, don't you think? I've always been told that in a time of crisis, the church will help everyone affected, not just members.

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

Thank you David Neilson for your integrity!

[@krisgeorge25]

You know what makes me sick? There are a lot of low income, widows, widowers, single parents, young married, etc that give their last dollar for tithes in order to remain “temple worthy”. Yet, the church doesn’t NEED that money. It’s not about that, it’s all about obedience and church’s power and control over their people. I’m so glad my family left a few years ago. I’m really pissed off on behalf of all the people who remain in this “church” corporation who are going without their basic needs because they believe their tithes are going to “building the kingdom of Zion” and to paying the bills at their temples and meetinghouses. Little do they know their tithes are going to grow the hedge funds of this mega-rich mega church!! Disgusting! 😳😤

[@deb6519]

Yes!!!!!!!!

[@charlesmendeley9823]

Also take into account members from poor countries. 10% of a meager income is much more, because you need more percent to even make ends meet.

[@kristinaadams7203]

If a low income member is paying full tithing to be Temple Worthy, thatʻs really cool and requires, I believe, that the church be giving those members support, in the form of $$$, funds they need to eat well and have a healthy place to live, health care, and perhaps some luxuries like new shoes and clothes. There are so many needs members have that are not met and could be supported by the church, it is really sad. There are so many starving people in the world that the church could help. Why donʻt they help?

[@tuesdaycurtis163]

Plus there is no marriage in heaven, we will be as the angels. All lies to keep you paying your money.

[@Justicejamesb]

@@kristinaadams7203 How do you know the LDS Church doesn't help these people? I know first hand several people "The Church" pays everything for them, and the Bishop only wants the people to pay tithing, and come to church. So, how is that not helping the person?

[@derektilley669]

Not a word about this in church today (first Sunday after it happened)

[@mariapark2374]

Reading the actual document was fascinating, kudos to Mark and John for a detailed podcast. 👏👏

[@JhutaNabi]

Done and done. Contacted my Senator and the Senate Finance Committee.

[@stacieamberson5570]

After my divorce there was a year that I did not pay my tithing, when I told the bishop and stake president I was chastised (infantilized) about giving my excess to my kids who needed money for food, they were not living with me at the time and did not have enough to eat. They read me D&C more than once that said I need to give my money to the church first! While my kids went hungry? I had no excess either?

[@troysnuffles]

If you needed any more proof that it's a cult, this is it!

[@fionawalsh5061]

You did the right thing by your kids that’s disgusting not like they would feed them.

[@bethanydee1920]

Don't fret. If God meant you to prioritize your resources 1st to the church when your family was in need He'd never have included the following verse in the bible, 1 Timothy 5:8 "But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel"

[@anniewhosit]

288,000 people in Utah are facing hunger - and of them 104,840 are children.

[@renaebodine1029]

It makes me sick to think about the Sacrifices my family and other families have made generational to pay their tithing so that this cult can do this they have money to burn

[@marciesteinhour5752]

Key word. Cult. Makes me so sad that I thought our "church" was "normal".

[@renaebodine1029]

@@marciesteinhour5752 The church has been my life My entire heritage all I have ever known and I have been devastated finding out the truth and all the lies it is not a religion it is a business first and foremost and definitely no doubt in my mind a trillion dollars trillion cult , the truth will all come out

[@eddym5532]

Give to the hungry, thirsty and needy, jnot to the crooks.

[@Marc010]

This was eye-opening. Thanks for this. I told a Mormon friend of about this, and she said her ward president told her this "whistleblower" hated the church and was trying to destroy it. Sigh.

[@ra.5067]

Typical brainwashed comment

[@LATLSpeaks]

Wow--once again, I'm shocked by the church's duplicity. It must be difficult for them to keep their stories straight and make sure that everybody is speaking from the approved "script."

[@ThisEveinEvening]

I told a Mormon about this national news and she laughed and said "that's it?" "Just not paying taxes?" 😳 I'm confused on why she believes it not a crime

[@starguy2718]

"We believe in being honest in all our dealings." Ask your Mormon friend about that.

[@TheMaxer03]

Income taxation is legalized theft. That’s why she laughed.

[@Decision_Justice]

many church members hate the government. Remember Brigham Young hated the government. Lots of Church leaders have historically hated the government. So the Mormon person you talked to probably has that attitude. Thus, to them "not paying the government" is no big deal. But this was much more than that. It was f alse forms, and getting other people (employees) to file forms that required signatures under penalty of perjury.

[@fegrace_1]

Who holds the church leaders accountable? Certainly they are not sitting before the same bishops that many of your guest sat in front of!

[@pacebeazy7584]

Tom Hanks once said Mormonism is un-American 😂

[@rat_bat]

This needs more views, thanks for this stream John!

[@lauraIngleswilder74]

My family was there at the beginning of the Mormon church. I am so thankful my Grandfather moved in 1930's to Alaska. He became a member of the Baptist church and I am forever grateful to God for this. I don't know if I would have been able to leave this church if I had been indoctrinated in it.

[@Glamerth]

Would you be able to leave the Baptist church if you had been indoctrinated in it? 😉

[@lauraIngleswilder74]

@@Glamerth Yes I did leave.

[@bcnidiomas6528]

IRS coming soon with a fine of billions !!!

[@xmo-n-peace]

I hope so! They need ACCOUNTABILITY!!

[@mlebaron1]

I seriously doubt it for the same reasons given here for the slap on the wrist SEC fine. TSCCOJCOLDS is too powerful, too lawyered up, and has too many powerful friends in government.

[@questioningcat7949]

Prophet, Seers and revelators what would Jesus do? Simply, not this.

[@teresaa40]

After working at BYU for 9 years this doesn't surprised me one bit. We were told not to discuss salaries with each other. Then we find out why.......

[@tonifoster660]

Employees should never discuss salaries with each other. As an employer for over 50 years that was always a requirement of employment as each person is paid on their individual abilities.

[@xerk2945]

@@tonifoster660 It's illegal to "require" employees not to talk about compensation with each other. That law was enacted in the 30s to stop union busting. A lot of states are now passing transparency laws that require the salary be posted as part of the job listing.

[@nancymorales6690]

Each employee gets pay accordingly to their knowledge so yes that is something we don’t communicate about. Even if you work for McDonald’s, or other. It’s just how it is. People might not like the idea but their things we just keep to ourselves

[@xerk2945]

@@nancymorales6690 , that is partially true. But the whole point in it being illegal to tell employees not to talk about pay is to prevent people with the same skill set and experience from being paid different amounts. The pay gap for women is a good example of this. It's also meant to help prevent employers from union busting, which I previously stated. Also, working at McDonald's is legitimate work, and they should 100% be allowed to converse about what pay they get to make sure they're ACTUALLY being patient according to ability.

[@ARealLiveMom]

Further it is illegal to pay married men more than women based solely on the fact that they are married men. I know this to be a fact but it is covered up by the don't talk about your salaries rule.

[@peggys121]

Before I left the church in 1999- they used to make us feel bad for not paying into the Missionary Fund, Budget, Fast Offerings, and whatever else “fund” they made up.

[@Hallahanify]

This is all money on top of the 10% you're already paying? That's deplorable.

[@cactoidjim1477]

The church of Latter-Day-Saints does not need to apologize to its' members. It does not even need to worry at all. With a Portfolio interest earning *more* than worldwide Tithes - it doesn't even *need* its' members anymore.

[@grantbeck9228]

But then the charade would be over and they couldn’t claim to be a church anymore.

[@joanteasdale2991]

Of course the church is it a self-serving apology what else would they do they don't want the members to know the truth

[@Mizzlenum]

In the country I grew up in the '80s some members made a living as janitors for the chapels including my brother who took me with him sometimes to help. But I don't remember which year they fire them and asked the members to do it and it's that way now.

[@nadzach]

It's always bothered me that corporations like this may figure it's profitable to perhaps steal 10 million knowing a fine won't be as great as the personal gain.

[@jaredlopez2926]

For 23 years, from 1997 through 2020, they got away with deception and amassed $100 billion. They got away with a $5 million penalty (0.005% of the funds AUM). What a deal!

[@jemariamaro1807]

All the sacrifice. Everything I deprived my children of to pay a full tithe only to now find out there was a "surplus" that was being used for this... Refund!

[@aloesecretinc]

I remember growing up in rexburg with a single mom, poor as poor could be. My mom was always pressured by local bishopric to pay a full tithing. At times we lived on dontions from the local food bank, mom never qualified for church food. When i was able to work, i had to help support mom, & mom always told me i had to pay my 10% to to the church. It always made me sick cus we were in need. I always felt like we were scavengers out picking apples at random peopls houses for canning, or other random fruits & vegetables. And here the whole time the church had billions. I feel they owe me my tithing money back from when i was a kid.

[@Nohandle246]

Blessings?

[@fionawalsh5061]

I object to their lies and using my tithing to pay their fines and they keep lying.

[@quogue]

Thank you. Essential for everyone to view!

[@senamadjabeng1518]

Omg can this be true ? I am dumbfounded heartbroken and upset

[@jennapalmer8917]

This is so sad. The church could do SO much to improve the world and alleviate suffering with the wealth that they have. Some investments make sense, but wtf are they doing hoarding that kind of money. Jesus does not need it. The hungry and the needy need it. Despicable.

[@sheliabryant3997]

Despicable: precisely.

[@shaylynduval1974]

I asked a TBM family member on what they thought about this whole debacle and they said, "Well... they have so many accountants... mistakes happen. You should ask God if you have any questions."🤦‍♀️

[@honestyjones4101]

Yup, but then... where, as a practising member, do you go with this information. Because and let's be honest it feel like "am I in a cult?", it's devastating because it starts to question everything. We are told a prophet has a direct line to God - so... God told you to form SHELL COMPANIES????

[@starguy2718]

Remind those TBMs that denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

[@lauraoverstreet526]

All the years of spending nights in shelters! Sleeping on cots! Eating at soup kitchens and non LDS food banks! Makes it all that much more painful!!!

[@tarabeck4511]

😢

[@jordanreimer1101]

This was by far one of my favorite episodes so far. Please have mark back on!

[@kasspriscilla9350]

There was no real apology and I can hear the arrogance towards the end of the letter This matter is closed And they never did confess what particular mistake they made they're not willing to tell you what it was or who it was and to me there is no credit for them in that it's a -0 it doesn't mean nothing Thank you for sharing this I read about it today and now I hear from both of you and I think it's great that you're doing this thank you so much God-bless

[@TS-iv9ml]

Standard protocol standard hypocrisy

[@kasspriscilla9350]

@@TS-iv9ml Absolutely

[@nursevideos2846]

Interesting point about the church relationships with lawyers in SLC. My husband and I visited at lawyer about taxes in real estate. We came out of the meeting with the lawyer's recommendation to give as much money to the church to lower our taxes...

[@believeinnature8930]

Nurse videos, for sure that lawyer will receive a commission from referring his clients to pay higher donations to the church!

[@jonathangatto]

​@@believeinnature8930false

[@Hallahanify]

I would report him to the bar... but shouldn't you be going to a cpa for tax advice, not a lawyer?

[@trsnomis6471]

The church stopped offering retirement programs several years ago because they didn’t have the wherewithal to hold up their end. Those already vested were and are able to receive their pensions. It all depended on the date one went to work for them. An old timer told me that the government stopped minting buffalo nickels because the Mormon church would squeeze them hard enough to cause the buffalo to crap a dime.

[@moesyah]

epic episode. mark is a legend.

[@GeanMellow]

It's so sad that many in Brazil won't be able to get it.

[@justinparker7795]

the tithing is NOT about paying the church ! its between you and God!

[@Nohandle246]

If that’s the case, then the LDS organization wouldn’t mind if donations were made to charities instead of them. Not the case. No temple privileges to those who don’t give their donations to the LDS. No exceptions.

[@tuesdaycurtis163]

5 million is nothing when they have 140 billion saved up.

[@fionawalsh5061]

No accountability makes me lose respect

[@christinejackson8542]

I wonder if it was the church that the Osmonds made bad investments with.

[@C-dunbrook]

2:47:00 “It isn’t a ponzi scheme. My home teacher is a good guy and would never do that. You know he has a temple recommend…” the level of naive trust in the LDS community is concerning. I was one of those naive Mormon kids who thought the ward family was legit.

[@clhorne776]

It is easier to fool a man than to convince him he’s been fooled.

[@deb6519]

It's not just being naive.. we were programmed!!!

[@starguy2718]

TBMs

[@billfrandsen3102]

I was a member in an Ogden, UT ward about 10 yrs ago....I vividly remember going to the bishop requesting some financial help when I was unemployed and struggling to find work. He told me that only a small percentage of the tithing paid into that ward was going back TO that ward. He told me that because the membership was only about 33% at that time, that was the reason the church corporate headquarters would only allow that percentage to go back to the ward. He also told me that wards with 90%+ activity and membership received a higher percentage of their tithing paid. He explained further that the only funds the ward could use specifically for the ward was fast offerings. So why doesn't the church give the tithing paid by members of their wards get to keep those funds to help out the elderly, unemployed, single, struggling parents of their respective wards??? Criminal....

[@wkf4806]

In the segment it was mentioned that IRS tax action is still a possibility. However, in the order, paragraph F on page 8 it states "Amounts ordered to be paid as civil money penalties pursuant to this Order shall be treated as penalties paid to the government for all purposes, including all tax purposes". So does that settle all IRS matters as well?

[@MsMadmax1]

My in-laws are LDS. I try never to discuss how dishonest and disingenuous the Mormon Church is. I've watch BYU television a time or two where Mormon "clergy" have told church members if they have to choose between putting food on the table or paying their tithe, to pay their tithe and God would provide. My spouse and I don't belong to a church, so there's church to pay tithe to. We take the 10% of our earnings and help our friends, our neighbors or anyone who stands in need.

[@hlnbee]

I have several relatives who lost money to Utah con artists many decades ago.

[@erpthompsonqueen9130]

Thank you. Watching from Alaska.

[@waltertrinkala6981]

The more I learn about churches. The better I love my personal relationship with God.

[@JeanRobinson-pr6bw]

When someone says "to my understanding", it leaves a big hole.

[@johnrowley310]

It's not a lie if nobody finds out...

[@starguy2718]

George Costanza?

[@lynneserman6054]

$5 million . What a joke after 20 years.The general authorities must be laughing.

[@andrebordeaux5700]

John and Mark. Thumbs up to both of you on your discussions. As a believing Protestant I am saddened by the misleadership in the Mormon doctrine. Mark covered it when he said , what would Jesus do? Keep up the good work! Gif bless.

[@lorenhuish5558]

Excellent info

[@walkbyfaithtinadavis7820]

Just one more reason for how the church is a lie...

[@MaryIreneAllen]

Thank you so much for this podcast and for the link!

[@drbulbul]

As Jesus himself once said, "Render therefore unto multiple, strategically named LLC's the things which are Caesar's."