Let's Get A Second Thought... On Second Thought

[@kirasfavouritehand2365]

Y’all here havin second thoughts, while I’m out here having third, fourth, and even fifth thoughts

[@billyusher4907]

Dude slow down I haven't even got onto my first yet

[@moonlight-hm4bh]

how 2 to thonk? - research list

[@depecher6s311]

I’ve had at least 7 thoughts today alone. Y’all aren’t on my level

[@Wowhexx]

Built Different

[@StaggersonJagz]

I'm in thought debt

[@ANGRYYYYYYYYY]

I will say, that second thought pulled me over to the left for good, so i think second thought is doing a good job pulling people to leftist ideas

[@ANGRYYYYYYYYY]

@Kremig Mitsahne oh neat thank you for informing me of these new channels i will check them out :D

[@olivers.7821]

One thing I criticise about him is how he displays Cuba.

[@roboticvenom1935]

@@olivers.7821 Because he's literally a tankie-light I've been in discords with him.

[@baibac6065]

@@olivers.7821 Cuba is the most based country.

[@roboticvenom1935]

@Quinzerrak it's a good thing that he's a tankie light? yikes..

[@philipfrisk805]

Vaush, absolutely brilliant young man. I'm 80 years old and I always learn from him.

[@2FadeMusic]

cool old guy alert ??

[@tjfjt]

Everyone give a like to leftist grandpa's comment!

[@Noahthelasercop]

Weird to imagine a dinosaur watching Vaush

[@classiclife7204]

@@Noahthelasercop Not so weird when you're 53 like me. :)

[@rengiil777]

@@classiclife7204 The internet must be so fucking weird in your eyes, all the green frog pepe emoji's and constant memes.

[@MossCoveredBonez]

While I agree JT might be too easy on other countries, I'd still say most of the content is pretty solid. Especially for socialist introductory content

[@Molten-Throne]

How many second thoughts can you have of second thoughts? Curious 🤨

[@BruhWhyDidTheyChangeThis]

It’s infinite

[@manofbruh4471]

4 because 2(first second thought) and 2(second second thought) equals 4

[@jonathanard7885]

@@manofbruh4471 I think you need to think twice about that one, chief

[@zohar328]

I need to have a second thought about this

[@Ramie0Cat]

Only one. But you can have a second thought about your second thought on second thought.

[@Masaru_kun]

exceptionalism doesnt mean believing something is exceptional, its also a belief that being exceptional provides a moral imperative to act above law and other multilateral regulations, like with the US invasion of Iraq

[@LimeyLassen]

You're right, the word has two meanings. It can mean "unique" but also "above the law".

[@abduktedtemplar]

I do think a discussion between you and Second Thought would be quite interesting. Maybe help you both grow your audience and strengthen progressive stances.

[@jackrutledgegoembel5896]

@@EggEnjoyer There is from second thought!

[@sotiris2273]

@@jackrutledgegoembel5896 so you agree with them??

[@bengrimm622]

@@sotiris2273 You have stand for something. Vaush just stand against the left. He is a centrist and thus a right winger.

[@sotiris2273]

@@bengrimm622 yikes

[@sotiris2273]

How? 🤣

[@captain-chair]

I hope Vaush and Second Thought have a chat, it would be quite interesting. And since you have chatted with Hakim before it would be amusing seeing you on their Podcast as a guest but a leftie can dream.

[@firekillerxx]

vaush doesn’t like hakim because he’s a “tankie” really tired of vaush and other lefties unironically thinking every ML is a “tankie” and straight up doesn’t understand Marxism-Leninism

[@arnigeir1597]

@@firekillerxx Hakim openly admits he's against other leftists, and consistently defends the worst of the USSR and the OG tankies who were for rolling tanks into Hungary.

[@СергейКочетов-о3л]

@@arnigeir1597 what do you mean by "against other leftists"?

[@garetroth5683]

@@arnigeir1597 Lib

[@Oak_Gray]

I would love for a chat to happen between them! I think they'd find they agree on like 90% of each other's ideologies. Honestly the only thing they disagree on is the speculations about what China means to democracy.

[@ash12181987]

I think Vasuh should talk to Second thought on a stream. He spent about 90% of the time agreeing with what the guy had to say, and their disagreements to me sounded like they could literally be semantic.

[@roboticvenom1935]

Second though is a tankie-light goofy. Look how he views china vs US and Cuba

[@ash12181987]

@@roboticvenom1935 Also, Since this video and my comment: 2nd Thought had denied any kind of discussion on rather arbitrary like "Oh I'm above all of this disc horsing" -thing, that was wishy washy and weird. SO there's that.

[@ReverendLeRoux]

I think Second Thought has a value system that can be boiled down to 'China Good, America Bad' in a way that's defined as 'capitalism is *factually* incorrect and communism is *factually* correct.' instead of a more moralistic or philosophical stance. I could be wrong, I only have this one video to go off of, but that's what it seems like.

[@Jeremy-hx7zj]

nope turns out ST is a massive tankie fash who will justify atrocity.

[@BruhWhyDidTheyChangeThis]

The issue with US democracy and bureaucracy is that it shifts leadership so quickly that there is no ability to plan ahead and the political and personal incentives don’t fall in line with what is needed to run a successful country. Our obsession with hegemony has allowed us to let infrastructure crumble and people starve. We could be Scandinavia on steroids if we wanted to, but we choose to suck.

[@siddharthaperi3490]

Organizing for a stable healthy society requires decades to centuries of foresight and planning, something the incompetent jackasses who are corporate leaders and shareholders can't do because they're money hungry on the basis of 0.25 years as well as the politicians who are power hungry on the basis of 2 to 4 to 6 years.

[@OGCHUCK1]

This is why monarchy last longer

[@GradyBroyles]

you cannot have a parliamentary form of government in a country that is really made up of 50 semi-autonomous states. And if we did, leadership would change far more often than they do now

[@dunkelsteinen1747]

@@GradyBroyles How would the gov change more often if it was a parliamentary one? You do realise that in practicality, congress and a parliament are identical right?

[@GradyBroyles]

@@dunkelsteinen1747 in parlaimentary systems the entire government can e fired mid-stream. At any time. In stead of every 4 years we would be voting for a new Prime Minister every time the governing coalition loses majority support. Look at ANY European parliament.

[@stephenrose4558]

As someone that is new to leftist politics and ideologies, I just want to say that Second Thoughts channel was extremely influential to me and has inspired me to get involved and to be more informed overall. I think that a lot of people share this same experience with me. I think he’s a fantastic introduction to leftist politics. He is well spoken, has short videos, and talks in a way that can reach people. I just think focusing on the “Tanky” takes is nitpicking and we are doing our own cause a disservice when we do so. EDIT: Vaush has had 2 cherry picked videos to frame ST as a tanky. But anyone that has watched more than a few videos will tell you that praising Russia and China IS NOT a central theme to his content

[@TheRepublic4]

Generally I’m against lefty purity testing unless it’s literally a Jimmy Dore type. If you want to build a movement you have to let (some) people you disagree with in on it. To be clear not Tucker Carlson, Jimmy Dore or the fake populists. I was led down the left in order by Krystal, Kyle Kulinski, (Kyle got me firmly socialist) Hasan then Vaush. My focus is economic coalition building with socially progressive elements So basically, Second Thought I think of as an ally who does a net good to discourse and the left! Wish the news was run by people like him and more lefty opinions. Would be very beneficial

[@stephenrose4558]

@@TheRepublic4 Exactly. I’m glad Vaush reached out to him and I hope they connect. We need connection, we need communities coming together

[@Johnhamsta]

From all the Second Thought videos I've seen, they seem slightly permissive and celebratory of China's mutation of capitalism/socialism

[@lurkingposter]

Vaush had two cherry picked videos where he agrees with Second thought over 90% of the time. That's not exactly nitpicking.

[@nateb7638]

@@Johnhamsta I agree with your assessment. I like most of their content, but can't get with the state capitalism. I'm down to work with these soft tankie types in the pursuit of train theory but I keep a well salted eye on them too.

[@hi__im_zack4890]

Being charitable, I wouldn't call second thought a tankie, although some of his videos are a little sussy. I think the main problem here is that second thought focuses his content towards normies. This means that a lot of nuances will be lost. This isn't necessarily bad; for example, it definitely brings in more people and is often a good introduction to leftist thought. However, I feel that newer lefties are more likely to be tankies because of it. I know this was true for me; I learned that America bad, capitalism bad, and socialism good, then it felt only logical to me to look at other countries and blindly accept that because they are "socialist," they are good. It wasn't until much later that I learned that there was a lot of nuance in these topics.

[@ForsakenKrios]

That is where I’m at with this. I started disliking 2nd Thought when he downplayed Jan 6, his Cuba Video, and recently his subtle praise of China. I stopped watching/subscribing 2 months ago.

[@jascu4251]

In a way this is sort of an inevitability if you focus on 'big picture' stuff, its kind of going to be people on 'a team' and on some level selling them 'a different team' - whether thats a) A whole ideology that presents itself as a direct opponent if the existing ideology, or b) a place that, nominally at least, implements that ideology This doesn't do all that much for increasing understanding or making people think, it just kind of has the effect of wholesale moving them into a different category, but without effecting the underlying mechanisms of how they think through things

[@MsMoonDragoon]

dude unironically said "SOCIAL CREDIT ISN'T BAD GUYS!!!".

[@McSqueeb]

@@ForsakenKrios wait no way, he downplayed Jan 6? Uhhh

[@ForsakenKrios]

@@McSqueeb he sees it as a way for the USA to spy on us more, turning in your neighbors/friends etc. This was about a month after Jan 6, maybe he’s changed his tone but it came across as, “ this wasn’t a big deal, they got rowdy, now the state is gonna make us all surveilled more!” I want to sympathize with this position but Jan 6 was a test run for a republican overthrow of the status quo. The social ills we would have if republicans got their way seem irrelevant to ST. So long as America goes down, no matter the cost, is the vibe he has given off this year. At least to me.

[@hershy1594]

What he said about our troops is too true. Haven't done a productive thing yet and I've been in 2 countries in the military

[@Turnil321]

Any second thoughts now we have the war in Ukraine?

[@hershy1594]

@@Turnil321 Nope. Was part of one of the units that went to Poland and we still didn't do shit except posture, but that's all that I want us to do because fucking around with a nuclear armed super power is not at the top of my priorities.

[@haleffect9011]

27:16 "I'd be very surprised if they went ahead with [the invasion], likewise with Ukraine." Well that aged like milk

[@tgwnn]

Fukuyama: *Writes a book titled "End of History"* Us: Wow he thinks history ended? Fukuyama: You're misrepresenting me!

[@leroture7750]

@Gabriel Terrero It seems he's suggesting there is some unique stable equilibrium that human society will reach. Once it reaches that, any divergence, if at all possible, will always lead us back to that equilibrium. In that sense it would be the end of History. It's an interesting idea I'm not sure what his reasoning for why this is the case so I can't disagree with him.

[@zenythh8076]

@@leroture7750 it's rooted in Hegel and the Kojèves interpretation of Hegel/the lord-bondsman dialectic if you want to look more into it

[@Blackgriffonphoenixg]

people either don't seem to understand the title (it says "the end of history" and not "history has ended") or they don't read past said title (on how it's a book about Hegelian discourse on the title) either way, a lot of people seem to be illiterate.

[@BenYork-UBY]

For me, the litmus test for "tankie" when someone uses China as an example of a "good respectable government that excersizes socialism properly" followed by CCP atrocity apologetics. This can also be coupled with Stalinism/Maoism being used as "good" examples of communist practice and Stalin/Mao apologetics Basically whenever someone is fanatically uncritical the of the Chinese/Soviet regimes despite their severe problems. Thats when I call tankie. I don't think I've seen Second Thought go to the extreme of welcoming the CCP's system of authoritarian government, nor do I see him advocate for their right wing policies. But he does tread the line as if he is buying into CCP propaganda

[@jacksmith-vs4ct]

I don't think he buys the CCP lies but he also doesn't blindly follow the US narrative either.

[@Peter-qz3sn]

Agreed, well said

[@mrtalos]

He recently downplayed the worrying social credit system in China.

[@thanos8638]

I don't see the problem with being Mao apologist though. Most Maoists just love his revolutionary thoughts and actions. It's just sad that some anti communists have propagandized the Chinese famine in 1958 as a 'genocide'. I think loving Mao is okay.

[@thanos8638]

@@mrtalos he was actually right. Chinese social credit system is nothing like those redditors potray.

[@jd7634]

If saying that China is helping out smaller countries is enough for people to say that SecondThought is a tankie. Then Vaush saying that the US helped Afghanistan during the occupation SHOULD be enough for people to say that he's a neo-con. Pretty fucking stupid if you ask me.

[@kaosisback8376]

Exactly

[@faeroar2251]

You know those aren't even remotely similar. It's not at all unusual for tankies to appropriate leftist talking points and pose as progressives, but it would be super weird for a neo-con to spend a bunch of time pushing leftist ideas while occasionally mentioning that the US did something kinda good once. To be clear, it's not apparent from this whether second though is a tankie, but an anti imperialist, would probably have felt the need to call out imperialism here, while a tankie would not, so it's sus.

[@jd7634]

@@faeroar2251 Lol 'sus', ok, whatever you say Senator McCarthy.

[@faeroar2251]

@@jd7634 Ya know what's sus? Posturing intellectualism while choosing to belittle slang terms and make outlandish comparisons rather than challenge yourself or me. Do better.

[@ericktellez7632]

@@faeroar2251 My guy, even the worst country you could think of has done something good at least once. China is no exception. And the US is also no exception. Why would someone pointing the good thing China did once be a Tankie but someone who points out the good thing the US not a neo con? Keep the same energy.

[@qarsiseer]

For me the thing that’s socialist about China that I like is their willingness to nationalize industries and bully the rich. I’d love to emulate that in the US. That said, I’m generally glad I live in the US and not China because of the personal liberties we enjoy here. My economic life might improve somewhat but the tradeoffs are pretty significant.

[@goldengears5355]

The Chinese government is a like a parent company. Parent companies in the U.S. do the same thing to the corps stuck under their thumb. Parent companies aren't socialist last time I checked and no, the people of china don't have any control at all of who gets to be in power.

[@charlieputzel7735]

They only bully the rich that criticize them, or are otherwise less politically valuable than the headlines saying "Anti-corruption campaign succeeds." It's less to do with anti-capitalist ideology and more to do with keeping up appearances.

[@qarsiseer]

@@goldengears5355 The Chinese government, while totalitarian and single party, is still elected by and responsible for the people (to an extent). Parent companies in the US are beholden to no one but their shareholders. I vastly prefer some democracy and civic accountability over literally none.

[@PlatinumAltaria]

Coopting private wealth for the aristocracy is not anti-capitalist, it's state-capitalist.

[@ProjSHiNKiROU]

Phrasing this idea properly within a tweet is such a landmine, just like pointing out the flaws of democacy. “I like the idea but it should be implemented within the bounds of US constitution, not CPC authoritarianism”

[@bumblebeeatbreadloaf1286]

As far as I've seen most of Second Though's content is basic critique of capitalism which is good. But the way he frames China like a force/ally to socialists is ridiculous and it's also tankie territory. I'm quite sure he's done it in other vids as well.

[@benharira1626]

Yeah man, the second someone even implies that China is in any way socialist you know they are a tankie.

[@aspacelex]

@@benharira1626 There's also politically illiterate people who don't know what the terms mean/have been lied to by the right.

[@garetroth5683]

@@benharira1626 Can't quite tell if this is sarcasm?

[@artonio5887]

The problem with leftists is that they tend to be completely illiterate when it comes to foreign policy, and they tend to be way too into the america always bad mentality, unrealistically so. Its a dangerous tendency from lefties, because it leads people into the russia/china good bubble, when both these countries are a lot worse than the US, its also annoying because this is exactly what those countries want, both russian and chinese state media try their hardest to turn westerners into west hating idiots. Not that the west doesnt have flaws, but acting like china or russia are better is retarded. I consider my self a pretty left leaning guy, but when it comes to foreign policy id likely disagree with many.

[@benharira1626]

@@garetroth5683 it isn't

[@sassyviking6003]

The claim no one takes the prospect of actual war with china seriously is definitely not true. This is very much a real topic of discussion, and a possibility both countries seem to be gearingbup towards. Will it be a conventional war, not likely, but a cold war 2.0 with numerous proxy conflicts, almkst definitely.

[@zkapsh]

It seems to be an economic cold war 2.0, I personally think with biden it semi died down, not to mention there were tones of people who got mad at the who because due to the circumstances of Taiwan it wasn't recognized, Americans have a at best a distane for China and at worst hatred.

[@sassyviking6003]

@@zkapsh i would argue against it dying down. Biden is more of a statesman than Trump, but the posturing, if more presidential in nature, is still very much there. Beau of the fifth column has done many videos on this and I tend to agree with many of his assessments that the US is gearing up to oppose "near peers". This means less intervention in smaller weaker countries such as those in the middle east, except by proxy war, and a far greater focus on countries like Russia and China which, while not on equal footing with the US economically or militarily, are much closer to being so.

[@zkapsh]

@@sassyviking6003 I agree my point is more that it's not in the forefront because biden and media/establishment liberal or conservative ignore it, fox News doesn't want to give biden props for something they like, and liberals don't care now that trump is no longer in office. So it's not on the minds of most people.

[@sassyviking6003]

@@zkapsh that is fair

[@zkapsh]

@@sassyviking6003 I know I am thank you.

[@Delicious_Oreoz]

My brain is still in recovery mode from all these high level thoughts

[@zeroperator]

From what I understand Fukuyama’s claim wasn’t that there will be no more conflict as liberal democracy will now be the only form of government, but that human conflict has progressed to a point where all of it will repeat in a manner of sense and that all conflict will be liberal democracy vs authoritarian reigims, and that democracy will always win.

[@bascal133]

China is helping smaller countries out of the goodness of their heart, other countries are too cruel to trap them in cycles of debt UwU

[@spaghettimon3851]

US and its satellite States is still occupying and dropping bombs killing millions in Syria, Iraq, Libya, Somalia, Niger, Lebanon and Yemen.

[@sluttyMapleSyrup]

@@spaghettimon3851 And China's still pushing against India's borders in Kashmir, all but literally forcing Taiwan and Hong Kong back under Beijing's rule, acting as a surveillance-state, and "re-educating" Uyghur muslims using Canada's defunct Residential Schools "program" as a template. America bad. China bad. Two things can be true at once.

[@spaghettimon3851]

@@sluttyMapleSyrup Also the soviet famine of 1932 was caused by drought and Kulak sabotage and the nazis did katyn massacre.

[@Rensoku611]

@@spaghettimon3851 I love how you completely ignored Bacall's comment and proved them right. Chinese imperialism good because america is still dropping bombs, amirite? Literally justifying imperialism/colonialism. Tankies are too brain dead to realize a very simple fact: you don't have to choose between US imperialism or chinese imperialism. You can be against both of these things. But since tankies are not leftists, I don't think they will realize this or care about it. To their mind, chinese imperialism/colonialism is justified and good.

[@SlothWindGod]

@@sluttyMapleSyrup yea that sounds pretty good. God I hate most nations tbh

[@willdenham]

'America is in a more precarious spot than our entire history.' So we were on firmer footing during the Great Depression or the Civil War. Gotcha'....

[@Skiltra]

second thought is the reason im on the left instead of the centre line and by far the first person i watched even before hasan. It seems you cant be a leftist without having all your leftist creators attack or denounce each other, so much unity among the left so much.

[@kumareth]

you can thank him for pulling you to the left while also being critical of his flirting with china

[@Skiltra]

​@@kumareth i can also thank the liberals for giving me information about china they apparently are into it although they have a capitalist core to them

[@1123elemental]

I think if you find yourself so far up someone else's ass that you can't criticize them you need to go touch grass.

[@Gingersnaps_the_pumpkin_kitty]

You're allowed to criticize and question the people you surround yourself with politically. Do you want us to operate like how conservatives do with neo nazis and just focus on what we have in common than EVER question who we're allied with for the sake of "owning" the other side??? Like asking yourself if someone with a lot of influence *might* be promoting *some* bad ideas is NOT the infighting that's hurting the left. If this is too much criticism for you...that's just pathetic frankly. 😕

[@BenYork-UBY]

Vaushs criticism isn't even that harsh. He keeps talking about how much he agrees with Second Thoughts points while criticizing more minor details. And that's fine. It's okay to have other leftists make critical commentary on your own leftist takes. If you want your movement to be pursuing what is right then you need your movement to be able to critically introspect, and/or check itself to make sure it's on the right track.

[@gagv4759]

27:15 aged like MILK

[@smileyp4535]

Just chat with him just chat with him, he's a good dude and wants what's best for America and the world

[@jwomackandcheese73]

If you say Chinese or Russian Hegemony would be better than American you don't want the best for the world. On the surface and for normies Second Thought is a good intro to leftist ideas, but ultimately his ideas are "America bad" while being very light in terms of criticism of Russia and China. He also agrees with Hakim on everything (I've listened to several episodes of their podcast) and it's Hakim and Yogopnik just sitting on America and JT (Second Thought) being like "Yeah we suck, I'm so bad since I'm American". Don't get me wrong I shit talk America but I don't defend other large nations who do bad things because America does bad things.

[@rsavage-r2v]

If you feel that socialism should simultaneously be indefinitely deferred until it can be completely pure and also be put into practice instantaneously when this day comes, have a listen to scholars Vijay Prashad in the video "Is China Capitalist?" and Michael Parenti in Midwestern Marx's Video "Michael Parenti on analyzing existing socialist states". We are never going to get anywhere unless we accept that progress has to be material, and doing things in the real world means they will be incremental, particular, and susceptible to failure. If we defend the positive aspects of socialist projects like the DPRK, that does not mean we have to place them in a platonist category of Eternal Absolute Unmixed Goodness. If anyone does, we should certainly criticize them. I think Hakim was once asked directly to give Stalin a grade, and he gave him either a C-minus or a D-minus. We need to be very clear that socialism is not a religion, it is a science.

[@fluidthought42]

Scientific socialism? What a novel thought.

[@Strongpoint100]

What would you say are positive aspects of north korea then? To me as someone more "centrist" (in a european sense) the DPRK is basically the final form of a stalinist-maoist society and shows what dogmatic socialism ultimately turns countries into. A hellhole with concentration camps, starvation and complete lack of freedom for its citizens.

[@kaydenl6836]

I’ll say it again: what the fuck happened? I remember when, can’t remember what video exactly, he talked about how predatory china’s loans were and how authoritarian its security was. And now he seems to have just flip flopped on that for some reason?? And has no problem working with quaks like BayArea. His videos are great, but my god when he misses, he fucking *MISSES*.

[@IconicPhotonic]

AGREED! But overall, I think he is a net positive. Sure, if you troll through his content looking for bad takes, you will find some.

[@kaydenl6836]

@@IconicPhotonicoh boy. This video showed up in my rec today lol. Things have changed

[@trevorturner9733]

This isn’t even my final thought!

[@Asterothe91]

around 23 mins you make assumptions on his moral claims for the US vs China or USSR i dont think hes saying the US is good or bad. i think hes saying that hegemony is not and that China is on track to be a more stable challenger to US hegemony than any other country before it. which i think is a fair statement. its infrastructure is much stronger, its trade is extremely powerful, its influence internationally isn't deemed as hostile as the USSR was, its part of the UN and thus can influence things that way, its military is massive similar to that of the USSR at its height and its not actively politically hostile to the US like USSR was. not saying this is good, just that it DOES seem to be in line to challenge US hegemony moreso than previous challengers. and that might be bc industrialization enables the disassembly of hegemonies.

[@WildSeven19]

28:06 Yes, China are helping poorer countries escape American imperialism. That's completely accurate. But it's also in order to get them under the heel of Chinese imperialism instead.

[@kholeka8475]

How many countrys has CCP bombed recently to get oil-...ehm...I mean to bring democracy?

[@alienkatdaddycgs5904]

@@kholeka8475 America bad, China good

[@neur0transmitter]

Agree. Vaush added "Why? 'cause they're nice" to build a straw man there. Otherwise, both the original video and this one are pretty well made. Hope the debate happens.

[@MsMoonDragoon]

@@neur0transmitter ah yes because china are totally doing it to be nice and not because they can basicly keep those countrys under their bootheel.

[@Gingersnaps_the_pumpkin_kitty]

@@kholeka8475 how many rights has China given to gays lately? And how many instate labor deaths has the United States stuffed people of a particular ethnicity and religion in lately, refusing to even let them leave the country?? Oh wait that's right, none. Because China is literally just doing everything bad America did while being even MORE capitalist, fascist, and socially conservative. From forced sterilization of ethinic minorities to the over abundance of propaganda to the social fetishization of a particular "ideal class/race" of upperclass heterosexual cis-men they want everyone to emulate. We have those bombings, they have child sweat shops and the current genocide they're conducting. The idea that China is somehow morally superior to the US is laughable as fuck, and they're only getting started. They are what our conservatives want us to be, literally it's just that they don't like the word communism. *Literally America 2.0*

[@joshuasalem5022]

Is he a tankie? Maybe. Does his content turn normies into tankies? Probably not. So I wouldn’t really worry, he’s fine.

[@arnigeir1597]

I've seen some people online claim otherwise, so I'm not so sure about that.

[@bigboss311092]

It is a little weird when he praises communist-in-name countries. But I used to live in one so it's easy to discard those praises.

[@milokojjones]

I don't think that it's as simple as the thing being black or white - what I mean is, that it's not like either you are a tankie or not. I think that everyone is capable of tankie takes - I probably had some too, the question is, whether you can acknowledge that your take is wrong or not.

[@IconicPhotonic]

@@milokojjones This. I even agree with JT that in some ways the western anti-communist propaganda was smeared or misrepresenting many things the 20th century communist powers. But they both did a bit of genociding and famining so its irresponsible to gloss over that (Of course the same could be said about the US)

[@untraceablefgc-9mkii251]

@@IconicPhotonic So are you trying to say famines weren't caused by natural events and mismanagement? There's a big difference beetwen that and purposefully causing a famine. Also what genocides?

[@diegoignaciomunozvalenzuel3013]

Just yesterday, I had the second thought of my whole life, really cool but really exhausting also

[@RealmRabbit]

"Pharaohs, monarchies, and empires" ... So what you're saying Vaush is "Monarchies, monarchies, and monarchies"

[@goodpol5022]

LMAO I was thinking the same thing! Although technically empires don’t have to be monarchal they just usually are

[@giannis_m]

There are differences though, pharaohs were theocratic monarchies, the "regular" monarchies were aristocratic/feudal in nature while empires like the british, spanish and french empires had a mercantilist character and a fundamentally different economic structure.

[@RealmRabbit]

@@giannis_m Okay, firstly I don't think all pharaohs really treated it as much of a theocratic thing... Like there were Persian and Macedonian pharaohs and the Persian pharaohs I don't think bothered hanging out in Egypt while Alexander the Great I know basically did a quick ceremony he may not have even fully understood where they made him pharaoh and then he left to continue conquering Persians... So particularly around the late stages of Ancient Egypt the pharaohs weren't really doing many religious ceremony stuff... I assume most of the Ptolemaic dynasty probably didn't just since they largely didn't even care enough to learn the Egyptian language aside from the famous Cleopatra... Additionally, European kings were also fairly theocratic in a sense... The main thing that separates a monarch from a dictator is the reasons legitimizing their rule... Dictators it's generally force and what not, monarchs it's because they have a reason why they were chosen to be ruling over you (and the lines can get a bit blurred in some cases like Oliver Cromwell, though I'd argue he was more of a dictator)... What was the European monarch's justification for why it was them who were entitled to rule over others? God's will... They had the divine right of kings which many kinda assumed for a long time would be in the Bible and they largely couldn't speak Latin so... Yeah... They just had the monarchy and clergy telling them it was a thing so they rolled with it thinking for the longest time that God would punish them if they objected or something like that... So theocracy definitely had a role in European kings/queens and there were some such kings/queens that acted more zealously than others (or at least played a very theocratic role, particularly with Henry VIII who was formally bearing some title like Protector of the Catholic Faith before he split with Catholicism and became literally the head figure in his own Church of England...)

[@RealmRabbit]

Also there are other monarchs elsewhere, like the Emperor of Japan which historically was seen as a direct descendant of the gods... I'm sure there are probably various other examples for Asian monarchs...

[@TheGalaxyWings]

Empires and monarchies are different. The third french republic was an empire, the soviet union was an empire.

[@gilless429]

Gotta admit, I was already squinting at the screen before, but when he said China helps smaller countries... Well, good thing for my laptop I wasn't drinking anything at that point.

[@luxborealis]

Taking Chinese development loans grants much social credit, comrade.

[@dexorne9753]

@@luxborealis the Chinese debt trap in an exaggerated, hypocritical myth.

[@雷-t3j]

@@dexorne9753 So? People like Second Thought delude themselves into believing that the CCP is doing anything other than what it thinks is best for them, then what is best for the PRC, and there's not really anything left for the rest of the world. I'm not saying China has done no good things, it has, and it could be a net positive to the world, but it's not GOOD, the USA is not EVIL, and America is the only power that balance it on the current world stage, and Chinese Hegemony will not be better than American hegemony.

[@pankajgaihre8313]

22:22 If u want change in ur nation. U criticise your nation. It's as simple as that.

[@kaosisback8376]

Yeah vaush isn't serious about anything anymore

[@willdenham]

'It's always framed as us or them.' Yeah that's pretty much how war works.

[@Ryukuro]

That line about Russia and Ukraine aged like milk

[@sacrilegioussasquatch]

A whole bunch of takes on it aged like milk. First 3 days, then a few weeks, a year....

[@The_Chosen_Heretic]

This is why I find it so fucking hard to trust people who criticise America, because I really REALLY want to, but so often it devolves into a hyper reductive campist argument. It’s so frustrating.

[@firefly9838]

Off with the heads of those in DC

[@lukasmolcic5143]

to clear Fukuyamas argument a bit, he did not say there will no more wars or resurgences of different ideological movements, but that the liberal democracy is the final stage of development every nation will eventually strive to get at, or get back at if it falls back to a lower form of development

[@prajwaljayaraj5887]

Yeah, he was still wrong. I hate that I had to do a paper on it. He's such a lib for real.

[@lukasmolcic5143]

@@prajwaljayaraj5887 is your paper available somewhere online, I haven't even got too deep in Fukuyamas original argument, but it feels like an important thought for todays world that would be worth going in to details about it

[@prajwaljayaraj5887]

@@lukasmolcic5143 It's not but I can email it to you once I'm done putting finishing touches on it. It's very amateurish I must warn you.

[@milokojjones]

I feel like it's a wrong assesment, just because of how progress works - we never know ( or rather very rarely ) what is comming next - whether it's science advancements, technology, new space discoveries or social development, they are hard to predict and most of the time we tried predicting them, we got them wrong. For people in the middle ages, capitalism ( or something similar in concept from that age ) might have been seen as the end of social development and it couldn't get any more fair - we today know that is not the case, but the people back then probably didn't. Even today, if we become socialists in the future, I doubt it would be the end of our journey - we may not know what system would replace it in the future, but I'm willing to say some eventually will. Predicting the future of social development is especially hard, if only because of the sheer amounth of factors affecting it. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to predict it and have discussions about our predictions, but we should definetly refrain from calling something definitive or final.

[@lukasmolcic5143]

@@milokojjones these are my thoughts as well, but I am curios about his arguments behind the claim, because when I see his talks he seems like an extremely reasonable man, I am sure he is well aware how hard is to predict the future, I should probably just go ahead and read his book

[@KikomochiMendoza]

The Hegemon of the current dominant ideology will always think they are at the end of History. The Kings in Feudal times thought they were at peak civilization with the Landed Nobility lording over everyone else. They too thought that this was the natural state of humankind. This became the dominant ideology (at least in the West) until the burghers had enough Capital and Power to overturn this notion. Now modern day Burghers think that we are living at peak civilizations with Capital burghers lording over everyone else.

[@geoscope3399]

That Ukrain comment did not age well

[@nightspeakerthefallenwing3451]

Hmmm now my thoughts are like second thought may have some valid points but saying China is helping others on getting out of American imperialism seems like a large stretch

[@fuglong]

Your take at 10:40 is so fucking mind blowing and enlightening thank you vowsh. Not even a meme that was such an amazing point

[@michalmalak13]

I would recommend you read some Marxist theory as this is basicly where Vaush took this take from. Still, his explanation is really good here.

[@GreekHouseEffect]

no offence, dude, but this is pretty basic part of marxist thought. I mean you are not required to know that, but it's not like vaush had a galaxy brain moment here

[@leninlover6986]

Wtf he just spat out some words he found on the Wikipedia article on Marx. It didn't make any sense. You sound like big words impress you more than analysis

[@tgirl_fangs]

@@leninlover6986 tankie spotted

[@sowishful]

That is literally the most basic take possible

[@stoopkidrumm3r]

I'm a simple man. I see the word tankie, I discard the users opinion.

[@UmQasaann]

Better be a tankie than a liberal and social democrat closed fascists.

[@thebestben]

Chat was malding when Second Thought said China was stable, but that’s an accurate statement. I’m not a tankie, but no one can argue that China isn’t stable, if they weren’t, they wouldn’t have been able to transform their country so quickly. One-party rule, while undemocratic, allows the government to make long-term investments, ex: high speed rail, massive urbanization, large-scale social programs

[@JamesRoyceDawson]

While it has been historically stable for the last few decades, prior to opening up to trade with the west, China was ridden with famine and very underdeveloped. While it had caught up with the west at dramatic pace, there are many things that are likely to cause instability in the next few decades. ageing population, excessive local government debt, bureaucratic corruption etc

[@arthur3816]

China is currently facing some serious issues with their dependency rate getting worse and worse, and also a housing bubble worse than anything ever seen in the west. I know that a lot of people have prophesized the end of China and they never were right, but I genuinely don't know how they are going to deal with both of those at the same time. They have also gotten worse on purity testing their functionaries which has put them in a spot where they don't have a lot of people left that really understand how the west works which I'd going to make foreign policy decisions harder to make.

[@xblade11230]

China is collapsing I suggest you actually do some research and stop falling for Chinese propaganda Some good authors are Gordon Chang, Peter Zeihan, Michael Pettis China's economy is all a big lie, they literally male up growth numbers There is no evidence that china lifted millions of people out of poverty

[@thebestben]

@@arthur3816 By your logic the U.S. isn’t stable because we had a housing bubble. China is actually in a better position to deal with the fallout of their housing market collapse than we were. China’s government will use their resources to soften the blow, reform the system, and jail the executives who allowed it to happen.

[@user-kn2iz8ve2w]

@@xblade11230 Ah yes, Gordon Chang, who predicted China would collapse in the previous two decades

[@shredvansshredquarters]

The saying loosely goes, "spend all day counting red cars and you'll never see a blue one"

[@SubnormalEntertainment]

Sometimes I feel like second thought is an AI

[@ManicPandaz]

What is America even #1 at anymore...? Isn’t it like number of people imprisoned, amount of money spend on war and amount of medical debt? Does being #1 at the worst things possible even count?

[@Amelia_Whitevoid]

They are also the richest country in the world.

[@spaghettimon3851]

No.1 on war crimes.

[@ManicPandaz]

@@Amelia_Whitevoid As of 2021 China now has the highest total GDP and Luxembourg has the highest GDP par capita. America is not #1 in either case.

[@Amelia_Whitevoid]

@@ManicPandaz You must be really good at math if you think *16,862.98 trillion dollars* is bigger than *$23.19 trillion*

[@yukitakaoni007]

number of hypocrites people. You won't find a country that have more hypocrites people than USA.

[@unknownv8462]

why left youtubers like to start arguments with other lefties instead of roasting right wingers who are taking over major countries like france, brezil,, austria, uk etc;..

[@liammarra4003]

Leftists, more particularly wanna-be leftists in the US (also known as, streamers) would rather purity test and self critique their own into irrelevance. Then do what every other large group of like minded folk have done since the dawn of time. Band together abd defeat the common foe-and *THEN* spend generations tearing each other apart until the most effectivly savage and persuasive party comes out on top. They're doing it backwards lmao. Not like streamers-I, I mean, "Leftests" born in the US, ever had chance. No hate like self hate, amirite?

[@fluidthought42]

I doubt either Vaush or Second Thought would decline to form a political coalition that would contain the other.

[@RayGunnerGaming]

money

[@TatoISR]

American Exceptionalism conceptually actually originates not from us becoming a military superpower, but from our humanitarian and developmental aid after WWII. The term became a negative phrase after Stalin used it mockingly during the Cold War.

[@WiloPolis03]

Rare Stalin W, even though he was basically a USSR exceptionalist

[@AlienG]

I agree with vaush’s perspective on this video mostly but why is he making this video. I can’t wrap my mind about talking about this over something like the Kellogg’s strike.

[@adamirshaid7637]

Because chat wouldn't stop asking him to watch this or some of his other videos

[@stevonwhite8933]

Or Amazon and the tornadoes

[@AlienG]

@@adamirshaid7637 ok? he hasn’t even talked about this other important shit and instead opted to talk about this? it would be different if he had talked about. I feel it’s irresponsible honestly to not talk about the Kellogg’s strikes right now

[@adamirshaid7637]

@@AlienG Vaush has talked about this before, he's not a news channel and he doesn't want to be one. Plenty of other people have talked about the Kelloggs strike and we're all aware of it. And you know what? He probably will talk about it in a big segment when the situation develops more.

[@Anonymous-df8it]

Maybe Second Thought could do "Let's Get A Second Thought On Let's Get A Second Thought... On Second Thought"!

[@brubber3326]

calling all his stuff propaganda kinda sucks because he literally leaves all of his sources in the description. its not just "i say this and you believe me"

[@CrystalLily1302]

Propaganda doesn't necessarily refer to negative/malicious content, it just refers to media that intends to sway political views, although ST doesn't lie in his videos as Vasuh points out the omission of information paints a very propagandized version of the USSR/China which I would consider propaganda.

[@malum9478]

not what propaganda means. propaganda is literally what vaush does everyday. propaganda is GOOD when it's for GOOD things--we NEED good propagandists. it's important to any political movement.

[@sacrilegioussasquatch]

Propaganda has a bad connotation. This is propaganda, vaush is propaganda, news are propaganda. It's about who does it and why.

[@spaghettimon3851]

The soviet famine of 1932 was caused by drought and kulak sabotage and the nazis did the katyn massacre.

[@jackrutledgegoembel5896]

you should write a thesis on this novel, never-before-debunked historical claim

[@Asterothe91]

as for the asymmetrical warfare, thats more of a reference to warfare involving traps such as IED and suicide bombings...this is usually known as unconventional warfare which is used when forces are generally unequal. i think he uses this terminology not to sanitize 911 but rather to include other terrorist threats in the entirety of the middle east which would include NGOs like Al Quada, ISIS and Taliban as well as governments like Iraq and Iran

[@Celis.C]

Is there a new KZbin rule for working with other people's content? I'm referring to the speeding up of JT's vid, I notice this in a lot of other (semi-)reactionary videos were (parts of) videos get shown and sped up for some reason. Just genuinely curious about it.

[@daggerthedragon1582]

Second Thought is super based

[@Badfish1978]

2nd thought is a grifter

[@calvinsomers1197]

Propaganda is a fair term for almost all political YT content because propaganda isn’t inherently good or bad.

[@sowishful]

Everything is propaganda… if you are speaking your mind on a topic, you are spewing ‘propaganda’…

[@sacrilegioussasquatch]

True.

[@PlankySmith]

"Make me the next Elon Musk and I will make capitalism reign eternal" - Vaush

[@mattvanmantgem8600]

While I agree that second thought is a bit soft on China, I think you may be underestimating public sentiment on war with China- I'm in a particularly irrationally xenophobic part of the world (Phoenix, AZ) so, maybe it's not elsewhere, but I have been hearing a lot of "Bomb them into the stone age" type comments. More seriously, there is a plausible scenario- with the Trans-Afghanistan oil pipeline, and Lithium mining in Eastern Afghanistan, China has become friendly with the Taliban, for energy production reasons, and so, it is plausible that western Energy Barons could get us back into a proxy war. Now, I agree that China is every bit as rapacious and brutal as America, and probably worse in terms of exploitation for resources, I just think the thought of entering a war with China has been floating for awhile.

[@noname772fp2]

I believe public support for war with China in the event of a Taiwanese invasion is above 50%

[@NyJoanzy]

7:32 - the Coconut Analogy will always be applicable

[@walterl322]

I'm happy that vaush has started to put less ads on his videos... I'm retracting my previous statement that he should be the first rich person in the line to the guillotine... but we're still taking your money... and also sake tanuki's money...

[@lsuperior]

Considering he doesn’t do sponsors, I’d say it’s fairs

[@S4RGE007]

how do ppl not know ad blocker exists? oh wait prolly on a phone or other device nvm my bad

[@walterl322]

@@S4RGE007 yeah, I discovered that you can't use an ad blocker on the yt app and that's fucking annoying... Also, I'm not actually mad about Vaush putting so many ads😂 even though it's annoying...

[@NyanSox]

how many times does vaush say liberal in this video

[@BruhWhyDidTheyChangeThis]

Second thought makes great content.

[@johnkop4]

and other jokes you can tell yourself

[@chrisangel6833]

@@johnkop4 he do tho

[@johnkop4]

@@chrisangel6833 Blindly praising the Chinese is not the type of content I would enjoy

[@BruhWhyDidTheyChangeThis]

@@johnkop4 it’s not all he does tho, he mainly shits on capitalism in very eloquent and well put together arguments. He was part of my radicalization process. In fact many people I sent videos of his to had their minds changed about certain topics. He’s not infallible, just don’t fall for “China good” and you’ll be fine.

[@adamirshaid7637]

@@johnkop4 hey man I don't even watch his content but blindly disregarding all his work is counterproductive. He has had a demonstratively positive and radicalizing influence on a lot of people and while his ideas about China are bad, I would say that he's generally good.

[@nosauceyesrough3576]

This video is way more sussy than the others you’ve gone through.

[@SomethingImpromptu]

Second Thought is generally great. From the first video I saw by him onward I’ve seen a LOT of Noam Chomsky’s influence (he analyzes & describes many subjects in the same terms Chomsky does- as do I, because he was dead right about so much & has a wonderful tendency to describe things in terms so clear & direct & unambiguous that any working class person can understand; the mark of a great science communicator & a great leftist political thinker IMO, since raising the consciousness of & winning over the numbers we have as the working class majority is pretty much the main thing that determines how much of the population we have the potential to organize, & numbers & decentralized horizontal organization are our major strengths in the face of a corporate state which assassinates leaders when movements are centralized & can easily marginalize minority populations. However, no idea why Second Thought decided to do a show with Hakim of all people- an apologist for all the Leninist/ML dictatorial BS Second Thought generally seemed to see through… Not sure what’s up with that. Also, lol at the idea of a political science concept of “decliners- people who think the US empire is in decline…” You mean, people with eyes? xD But yeah, Fukushima literally was just trying to take the place of Marx- where Marx actually had a rigorous, dialectical, historical materialist analysis which made a rational & empirically-backed case for why the abolition of class the class divide & worker ownership of the means of production (socialism) & ultimately communism would logically follow capitalism, just as it logically followed feudalism, which logically followed slave societies, Fukushima essentially just changes to the bourgeois-preferred propaganda conclusion that actually neoliberal capitalism IS the final stage of socio-economic organization, so all you socialists & communists should just STFU & accept it, because *“there is no alternative”* as Ms. Thatcher so theatrically proclaimed… And then he makes a bunch of post hoc rationalizations to justify this very convenient axiomatic position (convenient if you’re in the ruling class who never wants their rule to be challenged). Of course, it completely contradicts the body of historical data & from an actual dialectical materialist analytical perspective it’s laughable- this is not a rigorous academic/intellectual claim, but just an ideological propaganda assertion based on extremely motivated reasoning designed to serve elite interests, no more credible or unbiased than if today some political historian tied to the Chinese government declared that they’d developed a theory of history which proves the Chinese one-party state is the ultimate form of government & will be the form of government which with dominate the world during a Chinese hegemonic “end of history.” The Marxian conception is the only one of these “end of history” predictions which is actually based on an honest analysis of the social relations embedded in different modes of production, the historical pattern we see emerge as forces of production develop (except presently with the transition from capitalism to socialism, because of the success the ruling class has had propagandizing/indoctrinating us, crushing the labor left through violence & sabotage, etc.; without conscious, organized anti-capitalist workers to serve as agents of history, to actually make the transition happen, it doesn’t matter how developed our forces of production become. That’s why so much of the mechanisms of social control in liberal capitalism relies on putting up roadblocks that obstruct us from raising working class consciousness, explaining what socialism/communism/anarchism/Marxism actually mean (given all the false definitions & assumptions people are instilled with from childhood in America), organizing on a mass scale, influencing state power, etc.. After the foment & popular mobilization of the 1960s, the ruling class dedicated itself to making another such “crisis of democracy,” another uprising of popular movements & labor-based organizations on behalf of workers & other marginalized people against the ruling class & the various forms of oppression they’ve used to divide & control us, impossible. Now, they’re gradually losing their grip, just as they are over the rest of the world… But that doesn’t mean they won’t continue to resort to more & more desperate assaults on workers & the democratic mechanisms that might enable us, as the majority, to rein in their power. This is where fascism becomes a real danger, because historically they will back fascism & use it to crush workers & the left when we become a real threat to their class rule. This is one of the reasons we really need mass numbers & largely horizontal or extensively federated organizations; not only to carry out revolutionary labor actions (authentic, successful mass general strikes), but also to ensure violence & authoritarianism can’t be used to just strike us down & wipe us out “Jakarta method” style or assassinate a few key leaders, infiltrate positions of power with a few of CIA’s own, & effectively neuter/co-opt whole organizations & movements without having to do a thing to 80, 90% of the members.

[@Zenbladison]

Goddamn bro, you went hard as fuck on this analysis

[@ShayNoMore1]

Second thought is the biggest 🐂 s.hit ever made

[@nataliekhanyola5669]

Nope!!

[@ShayNoMore1]

@@nataliekhanyola5669 second thought bot

[@The_Story_Of_Us]

To be fair, I really think that while Second Thought’s comments about China being an positive force for good in the world compared to america are silly and sussy, I kinda think I need to hear him fully discuss the topic of China and its politics to really get a grip on whether he just sometimes gets ahead of himself with anti-American sentiment while scripting, or if he genuinely is just blind to red fascism.

[@euunul]

Well, yeah, MrLiberalPossingAsLeftist, China does help poorer countries to get out from under US boot. It might have ulterior motives, it might do it with the goal of becoming world hegemonic power displacing USA. But nonetheless it helps them. Even if by just offering those countries an alternative to choose from to get finances needed to develop their economy. And yeah, China does bring those countries closer to socialism by providing an example that there is a path toward socialism, the same path China embarked on. But watabout China is a not socialist but capitalist country? Well, back to OG Marx boy, you can't hope for a proletariat revolution to build the bright communist future without first going through capitalism. Communism is the end goal, not the state of affairs. If China offers an example of "communism with Chinese characteristics" Chile could try "communism with Chilean characteristics", "communism with Rwandan characteristics for Rwanda" and hopefully "communism with blackjack and hookers for USAnians"

[@williamoldaker5348]

Vaush has such a sycophantic fan base.

[@RayGunnerGaming]

no shit. they are mostly high schoolers

[@thechief043]

I'd be curious to see how others see this Second Thought video vs PolyMatter's China Reckoning series. My impression from this ST video is that China is an ever-growing juggernaut, but watching PolyMatter would make me question that.

[@BladeValant546]

Naw it's their domestic problems. You need liberty you can't suppress humans forever. If they would just open up to freedom of expression while keeping their socialism they would out do the us.

[@whysocurious7366]

I’d be curious regardless

[@d3th2m3rikkka]

Yeah but a lot of the problems polymatter lists about China are also problems the US has. He talks about China having a lack of water for example, but the west coast is running out of water and droughts and wildfires now happen every year instead of every few decades.

[@thechief043]

@@d3th2m3rikkka Exactly, I'd like to see an in-depth analysis of both. Not an expert, but based on population location, I'd predict China might be worse off, but the US will absolutely have problems. And desalinization is an energy intensive process, which will absolutely be compounded by climate change.

[@fraktaalimuoto]

I think PolyMatter's China series is very good. Saying this as someone who has been interested in China for a long time. China has internal problems and the massive economic growth cannot be maintained forever which will decrease the popularity of CCP. CCP is not the worst government out there, as I do believe there are people in that organisation who genuinely want to make the country work. However, the recent direction for increased authoritarianism is worrying, and I will speculate that it will lead to further instability down the line. 10 years ago I still believed that China, despite its problems, was heading towards better direction. Nowadays I am not so sure.

[@stoneman472]

Ah yes, the Tankie Litmus Test of "Do you think China Good?".

[@liammarra4003]

More like: "Do you think China is good?" "And, if so, why are they not?" How to spot that you're dealing with a light switch brain wanna-be Leftis-I, I mean, a Streamer? They ask you if Nation States are, "Good", or, "Bad". Avoid. Report. Its your duty.

[@stoneman472]

@@liammarra4003 aw look. I lured in the Tankie

[@liammarra4003]

@@stoneman472 dont forget to check under your bed and self critique your subscribed list, my be some tankies in there

[@stoneman472]

@@liammarra4003 Hey, just answer these questions for me. 1.Did the Uyghur Genocide happen? 2. Did Halodomar happen? 3. Does Chlorine Gas sink?

[@liammarra4003]

@@stoneman472 Uyghur genocide "happened"? Are you implying that the Uyghur genocide ended? The Holodomor, how ever its spelled happened. And I dont know anything about Chlorine gas. If this is a tankie test, this is a bad tankie test. Based on my hand on the pulse viewing. Ones about modern China, second is Stalinist USSR, and third is....about Syria? This test will have you thinking a lot of people are tankies.

[@bob5476]

Tankie just means based, right?

[@elizabethdavis1696]

7:34 coconut analogy Anyone have a suggested KZbin video to explain that?

[@underthedice1231]

It's a variation on a well known antilibertarien argument that made Irishladdy popular. It makes the case against the idea that free markets can be devoid of cohersion. Making the NAP unworkable as the sole social contract.

[@Nickshady2254]

I come from watching JT before Vaush, and i live both chamnels and listen to both podcasts. If he pulls through on talking with Vaush, this is where not only i will promptly watch the stream, but this will also challenge my ideals, and i have a blend of both sides. Lets see where this goes...

[@LeMAList]

I love Vaush, but this ST arc is stupid - Vaush gave a bad take by calling him a tankie, got called out for it, and now scramble to save face instead of admitting he done goofed. This has overinflated youtuber ego written all over it, and it needs to stop.

[@alienkatdaddycgs5904]

I would've said that too. But the part where he starts talking about China bringing socialist to the world is a little strange to me. Especially cause they're not socialist.

[@LeMAList]

@@alienkatdaddycgs5904 I don't disagree, that IS pretty cringe, and it is a point that would certainly require a deeper dive or more nuance - It is possible, for example, to approach a society separately from its government, and to recognize the potential of the chinese emerging civil society in the same way one could make the argument that the USA is a potential force for the betterment of the world despite its recent inept and bordeline fascist governments. But in the grand scheme of things, ST work does not promote autoritarism or coercitive governance, and people prentending otherwise are pretty much just grasping at straw to self-agrandize.

[@joeyjose727]

He didn’t really say he was a tankie though, he agreed for the most part but found some statements suspicious. I did as well but I think this is because we’re internet poisoned and are used to seeing some people excuse the worst things China has done Vaush assumes everyone on the online left hates him (and most of the louder communities do) so I think he comes from a bit of a defensive place at times. This isn’t served by letting your editors title a video “Is ST a Sussy Baka Tankie?” Or whatever it was called, but now that ST has declined to talk this will probably end Like I don’t think Vaush will keep bringing up ST as an example of a tankie. Mostly because the reason that first video went over poorly is that people feel he does good work and it’s useless to find and sussy tankie takes. I do find him suspicious after this video but I don’t disagree with him on most things and would never tell anyone to ignore ST’s channel, especially when there’s nothing I’ve seen ST do that makes me do anything more than raise an eyebrow

[@liammarra4003]

@@alienkatdaddycgs5904 China will be, even if they dont, because they claim and assert that they are. The US/West claim, and assert that they arent, hell, they go out of their way to. And thats what will be remembered. Thats what, where, and who socialistas and Leftists, and socialists governments, States, entities, etc., will go to. Regardless of what Americans streamers want to be remembered or occur-they got lots of work to do, may want to first get their government actually being, and showing, just a modicum of support for the ideology lmao. You hate dogs and kill them, I love dogs, or at least I clam too. Dog owners will come to whom about a stray? Same thing applied during the cold war. Leftests went to the USSR, China, Cuda, Vietnam, Laos, etc., for support. Not the US. I wonder why? Right-wing facists went to the US/West for support-I wonder why?* *To keep it simple, this is broadly speaking

[@liamc.6642]

I-it WAS a title drop...

[@screamingphoenix8113]

Second thoughts? In this economy? I can barely afford to think a first thought.

[@johnconnor8206]

28:36 the benefit for the countries in Africa is that the terms of Chinese loans are better than those of IMF loans.

[@davidbouchard2499]

I like ST, I like you, I like every leftist KZbinr. I find ST too much of a tanky, I find you too much of a debate bro, does it mean I don't listen to the both of you? No. I enjoy both your content.

[@untraceablefgc-9mkii251]

Tankie" Is literally just a buzzword and a useless mean to to create a counterpeoductive Red scare on the left. It's so annoying that all these comrades gobble down straight up made up lies or incredibly exagerated and caricaturized versions of what former and current socialist projects are.

[@Oak_Gray]

Have him on! I would love to hear his responses to your criticisms

[@Jeremy-hx7zj]

So weird how just a year ago no one knew that ST was a vile moron

[@joeoliver4266]

Even when he doesn't mention China, he implies over and over that capitalism is part and parcel with the United States rather than a global entity with competing factions inside. That's a scarily undercooked analysis for someone trying to popularize left politics. You can't meaningfully challenge capitalism unless you understand it as the sole economic fabric the world is operating on today.

[@untraceablefgc-9mkii251]

He does know that capitalism Is a global system. It's just that he focuses on the USA because of his main audience.

[@jackpot42]

The end of history is such a cynacle view: America as it is is as good as things can be

[@crocve]

Vaush declared war on China in this debate.

[@potrelviewer9536]

Did Vaush played ST's video on higher speed?

[@tw3f4tes52]

1.25x it seems

[@michalmalak13]

I agree that hegemony is bad but I don't agree with Vaush's statement that any hegemony will be the same. First of all, most probably China will never be able to be a sole hegemon like the US so China would be a hegemon in a multipolar world. Second of all China is demonstrably less militaristic than the US. China builts its global presence by economic ties and its decision-makers rarely consider using military means.

[@malum9478]

china is less militaristic in comparison to the US, _the largest military force the world has ever seen._ china is absolutely a massive military force otherwise and is increasing it's militarism everyday. it does basically the same nationalist bullshit america does too but with a splash of fascist propagandistic "glory of the old ways" rhetoric. if america wasn't able to china would quickly up their military game as well. also: "their decision makers rarely consider using military means"? you mean like how they constantly do power plays and insist on invading taiwan?

[@michalmalak13]

@@malum9478 I agree with most of what you are saying however I believe that if you study Chinese culture and History you can see that China is a less militaristic culture than the west. Also, what power plays are you talking about? Island bases in S. Chian sea? They are just doing the same thing that Vietnam and other countries in the region are doing. China did not fought in a war since 1979. Their aggressiveness towards Taiwan is very worrying but it's unique because China believes Taiwan to be a part of its territory.

[@tofuteh2348]

@@michalmalak13 im chinese and give it time, china wants to become the next US

[@alienkatdaddycgs5904]

21:00 Oof, I guess that part is pretty bad.

[@TheGoblinoid]

Nah, second thought is based.

[@ReidMerrill]

Vaush on the deprogram when?

[@mjr_schneider]

I'm sorry but I haven't been able to take anything Second Thought says remotely seriously ever since I watched that video where he uses the Political Compass website to prove that every American politician other than Bernie Sanders and Tulsi Gabbard are on the authoritarian right. He's a complete smoothbrain.

[@rubbercable]

They(China) don't have to be nice. They just have to be a counter-force. (Like the EU)

[@poisondamage2182]

For what?

[@rubbercable]

@@poisondamage2182 Global Hegemons. One nation can delete the entire planet single-handedly (not without cost) and nothing could stop it.. It has the power of the next 11 nations combined(most are allies). The rest of the planet is rusted submarines, ww2 planes and paddleboats. It has replaced dozens or scores of democratically elected regimes by coup or assassinations. It has crashed remote economies by sanctions. It's PR is global. It taxes the planet for it's arms by taxing the oil/energy that's traded globally. This is a guess now: I'm guess it has more extra-border purpose-built military bases than the rest of the planet combined. (I didn't include confiscated/converted public buildings or makeshift openair guerrilla camps)

[@poisondamage2182]

@@rubbercable but why should we want another country at the handle?

[@rubbercable]

@@poisondamage2182 If captalist monopolies is any example. Any monopoly of power is bad news. The EU is an example where each state keeps the other 'honest'. like 27 poker cheats watching each other. Anyone arguing diff. is okay with dictatorship - as long as they're the dictator. _"search your feelings, luke." you know I'm right_

[@poisondamage2182]

@@rubbercable boi, i want a socialist revolution. I want the workers of the world to seize power. I don't give a shit about which bourgois state has how much power.

[@7th808s]

21:30 Maybe it's the red flags... maybe it's the tons of state-owned companies, and the ultimate power that the state holds over the private companies in their country instead of the other way around. Vaush once again suffering from Ameribrain.

[@georgekingiv8171]

Where else we have seen that oh yeah Soviet union. I wonder how are they doing.

[@bluepurplepink]

Ah yes, the state owned companies that are run not by workers but by a non-democratic dictator is totally socialism. I think you suffer from terminal tankie syndrome supporting a dictatorship by thinking they stand for the people. No democracy = no workers representation. The Chinese state works for Xi Jingping not the Chinese people. They are state capitalist.

[@thewhitefalcon8539]

Question: Does Russia really want to start world war 3? Answer: Yes.

[@daniellassander]

Were about to hear more idiotic stuff about basic economics from someone that knows nothing about basic economics, go on Vaush.

[@Aconitum_napellus]

I just got an ad for Candace Owen interviewing Trump.

[@charliekahn4205]

I've always wondered how best we can apply the iterative theory of historical progress to economic systems. I think we should keep some of the good parts of capitalism (you get rewarded for doing your job well, and you get more reward for doing it better) and remove the bad parts (trusts; hierarchical, profit-inefficient organization). We should treat politics like we treat any other form of scientific development.

[@PurpleSnake]

Rewarding someone better because they did better is not a capitalist concept. In fact it is all over socialist concepts since if you get your value out of your labor that means if you do more you get more.

[@davidharabagiu4969]

I was never rewarded for doing my job well. Everyday at work I'm incentizived to do the barely minimum and always switch jobs frequently for higher pay. I started to not give a single shit about the projects I'm involved in because they seem so pointless to me and I have no say in what the company does. At interviews I'm fake and act like I'm all passionate and interested in the company. You can judge me for this, but if I didn't do it, I would have starved to death until now.

[@charliekahn4205]

@@davidharabagiu4969 I meant that if you provide a service at the advantage of the market, you get paid.

[@TheQueen-sw4th]

@@charliekahn4205 Get paid by what you produce? Sounds like socialism to me

[@charliekahn4205]

@@TheQueen-sw4th Socialism is, as far as I can tell, like that but not naturally enforced.

[@tylerhackner9731]

I have a thousand thoughts