Is Second Thought A Sussy Tankie YouTube Channel?

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[@ryan-sh8vi]

Here from the future to confirm, yes he is

[@SoChilledOutGuy]

Most recent video was so Red Fash

[@emilchan5379]

Lol the top comments here all aged like sour milk. Turns out that yes, Second Thought is indeed a sussy tankie channel.

[@darkranger116]

I think ST is really important tbh. I see his work as being a catalyst, a crowbar, to disengage people from the ideas of American exceptionalism. And he does a pretty good job in a lot of videos imho.

[@RockyMountain-cg4zv]

He was questioning whether the genocide in Xinjiang was actually happening and he was calling the protests in Cuba a color revolution, he also said he doesn't like when people who call themselves socialist critique "real socialist" countries, alluding to fucking Cuba, China, and Vietnam all autocratic states. I agree that some of his vids are decent but I do not like the idea of young impressionable progressives or people just getting into politics stumbling across defenses of nominally far right, fascist, one party states like China, especially after watching reasonable critiques of America before hand.

[@erikrobinson9999]

@@RockyMountain-cg4zv Another salient point I've heard when watching his videos with others is that although he spends a lot of times complaining I almost never hear him give honest alternatives. The video Vaush reacted to is a prime example of this.

[@MrGksarathy]

@@erikrobinson9999 Some of his videos do in fact give some alternatives, or at least hope that things can be better, but yeah, they generally end on a bleak note. Also, agree with OP on the main function of his videos and the stuff they do well, and honestly, I've learned a lot from Second Thought's content that's not sus.

[@Fizzypopization]

@@RockyMountain-cg4zv he criticizes China definitely seen it. There are parts of Chinese culture that I can understand feel alluring when contrasted with other countries even if the overall execution is bad. Cuba has a lot of good going for it and talking about those positives could help lead to change in our own system even if not exactly copied. Regardless maybe he's just needs to be reminded there has been no socialist country ever because we all have to use a capitalist system which doesn't allow for a socialist economy to take hold. Which is exactly why they all end up being authoritarian hell holes. Though I feel that way about the US too.

[@RockyMountain-cg4zv]

@@erikrobinson9999 Yah especially lately. I'm just frustrated by the amount of likes this comment got. To be fair, I don't think the commenter is bad or anything, I just think them and I'm assuming a lot of Vaush's younger audience, is falling for the same trappings that someone like a Dave Rubin pre 2019 or Joe Rogan now or Jimmy Dore now would be feeding to center or right leaning individuals, the impression of left or center leaning politics while pushing a far right narrative. I think that's what Second thought does for progressives, it's more subtly making a bunch of videos critiquing America (based) while sprinkling in defense videos for far right authoritarian and in China's case, ethno nat governments.

[@lava172]

EDIT 2024: ok i was wrong second thought's a tankie lmao

[@someguy0204]

Didn't second thought put out a video where they denied the Uighur genocide tho?

[@objectdefiance4027]

@@someguy0204 I don't think so. If so post sauce.

[@soulmechanics7946]

Correct. We have a problem with pseudo-socialist tubers protesting capitalism whilst capitalizing on stirring up contentious dramas instead of like, ya know, doing their jobs properly. Vaush has a problem with lying to you guys for profit. We should all really be protesting this disservice and getting on point with our purpose here. 👊🚫➗

[@LonaliDei]

@@someguy0204 No, but he *did* collaborate with Bay Area415, who does explicitly deny the Uighur genocide (Unfortunately he's since vanished off the platform, so the evidence of their collaboration no longer exists).

[@soulmechanics7946]

The minor gripes are important though. Vaush has expressed a few ways in which Second Thought could be more effective here. It is good work.

[@iang7244]

Second Thought is a good gateway into leftist ideas and encouraging the audience to ask questions about our systems. He shouldn't be the endpoint tho, as he is the fast food of leftist youtube, but conservatives have shown that the 5-15 minute video can be more enticing to some people than the movie-length video essay that breadtube pops out once a month.

[@oolacilesbotnet6564]

you must think that Vaush is fine dining then lmao

[@yosephbuitrago897]

Oolacile's Botnet no, because we don’t consider Vaush to be a part of breadtube

[@coolbanana165]

@@yosephbuitrago897 In what way isn't Vaush breadtube? He's on the libertarian left

[@miragic]

@@yosephbuitrago897 who says this

[@TwentyNineJP]

@@coolbanana165 Bernie Sanders is also libertarian left* and has a KZbin channel, but he isn't breadtube. *Don't @ me with the "he's a socdem" thing. He calls himself a demsoc, and I believe him in the sense that I think he would wish us into socialism if he had a genie, even if he can only pass socdem policies.

[@NightDocs]

I’ve spoken to him a few times he’s a good dude. I think the points he makes are usually pretty good. He’s not one of the ones worth going after.

[@spoops_all_poops]

Wow, hey Jym, cool to see you in this comment section!

[@myaxalienn]

Yooooo based Jym

[@davidbodor1762]

I stopped watching him months ago because he seemed full-on tankie in some videos, especially when it comes to the Uyghur genocide/China

[@alexsapsarras4812]

@@davidbodor1762 oh oh. pls tell me he doesnt fantasize china as being socialist in any way.

[@salokin3087]

I really doubt he's a "good dude" when he doesn't recognise ongoing genocides or mass repression in other countries that aren't the US.

[@fuglong]

I totally agree with Vaush that ST can be reductive. I think that's why the channel is so valuable though. Our complex systems are hard to escape and understand; getting just a little taste of truth was what led me to have the chance to abandon my southern, conservative upbringing. ST isn't a channel for studying leftist ideas, it's a channel that opens eyes to anti-capitalist ideas and plants seeds that I think has more of an effect on America's culture than left, super smart debate bros.....

[@Problematist]

ST does constantly say they're not there to change anyone's mind but rather makes content for people who are already leftists so it makes sense it's reductive.

[@FelisImpurrator]

@@Problematist Wait, but then being reductive is bad, because if people are already leftists the last fucking thing we want is for them to believe simplistic versions of our positions. We never get good outcomes from people on the left buying into reductive us versus them or black and white or whatever discourse goes along those lines.

[@MrGksarathy]

@@Problematist If he says that, he's doing a shitty job, since his videos work far better for people on the cusp who need that last realization to break free of capitalist realism and the liberal mind prison.

[@Problematist]

@@FelisImpurrator I agree which is why his content before and after becoming leftist always rubbed me the wrong way. Maybe it's also that he talks so slow.

[@starthetankist979]

I find it ironic a dude who literally just repeats what he read off wikipedia calling someone else reductive. And you cant even say I am exaggerating, because he has admitted to it multiple times. But even ignoring that Second Though even before they started there Leftist videos were always basic information videos. His videos are for people who want to learn the basics about a topic in under 10 minutes. Vaush is a streamer who has an entire hour to talk about a topic.

[@James-9999]

Turns out he’s a tankie

[@seff6533]

Vaush, you literally missed the point with the infrastructure bill part. You said how it ended up was the republicans fault, and that's literally his point. He said whenever the democrats actually want to pass something they always play nice to republicans and it always ends up looking/being bad for Dems

[@oddjam]

Yeah. Good crit

[@davidradtke160]

I think you might be missing a point he was making, in an electoral system no matter how left or how hard a party fights for its priorities, they have to compromise to actually pass anything. The requirement to compromise can’t be completely waived away as Dems being right wing or not really fighting for principles.

[@uninstaller2860]

ST's lack of leftist audio and esthetic, makes them a Suez channel level of gateway to the left. I don't always agree with them, and that can be said about Vaush, too, even though I'm more aligned with Vaush. But both of them have their undeniable value to us. Vaush is funnier, though.

[@starthetankist979]

Nah, Vaush has defend US imperialism in Afghanistan and outright has lied on stream about people's, then gaslights his own audience when called out on it.

[@AJ69238]

@@starthetankist979 when?

[@BladeValant546]

@@starthetankist979 stop fascism is a greater threat.

[@uninstaller2860]

@@starthetankist979 You're funny too, but in a different kind of way

[@starthetankist979]

@@BladeValant546 Using fascism to excuse Vaush's behavior and apologetic for US imperialism is toxic.

[@brogansmith1342]

Second Thought makes a kind of content that we need: basic, entry level explanations of leftist ideas. I really hope this doesn't spiral into more unnecessary drama.

[@originalulix]

He also had a nice arc, starting as a general knowledge channel but then going hard left when he already had a ton of "normie" subs.

[@originalulix]

@@smokedbeefandcheese4144 I mean Vaushes take on ST video way okay. But yeah clickbait title, this being KZbin.

[@oddjam]

It shouldn't.... I fucking hope

[@starthetankist979]

Vaush is literally a drama streamer. That's how he makes money.

[@akaroth7542]

Second thought is sharable online. Def easier for average people to get exposed to more left ideas. You can't convince someone of something, you can only give them the ingredients to make their own thoughts

[@dripshameless5605]

Almost NO liberal watching that is thinking "yes but GOP is the worst." They know that. I think he effectively shows the more nuanced understanding. Also if he was an all-out tankie, I genuinely don't think he'd give props to Bernie/AOC and the squad a couple of times.

[@araxiel569]

The January 6th insurrection is not mentioned or shown once in his entire video. The footage shown at the end 29:19 is from Biden's inauguration on Jan 20.

[@dripshameless5605]

@@araxiel569 you're right, my mistake! I still standby the sentiment, I'd be surprised if he was some tankie. Sorry for that tho

[@andrewbrown1454]

Are Marxist-Leninist automatically tankie? I don't think so, but he is a self proclaimed ML.

[@MrGksarathy]

@@andrewbrown1454 Most who identify as MLs are.

[@andrewbrown1454]

@@MrGksarathy I didn't ask if most ML's are tankie.

[@x-xPhobia]

Cursed with the gift of foresight(or just plain sight tbh.)

[@MeehanSax]

**Disclaimer: I'm commenting before watching** Tankie or no second thought is a fantastic force for the left, helped me learn the language of leftism when I was first deradicallizing from American conservatism, and he makes lots of arguments that my friends who are normies are totally on-board with. Please please please don't start the "second thought is a tankie" ark I'm gonna minecraft myself

[@ashtoncarriveau3880]

I felt like he was being really pedantic and nitpicky when watching the video. If any Second Thought fans watch this I can’t imagine they’ll have a very good impression of Vaush. I’m glad he at the end explained that he liked the content and thought what he was doing was good, but you wouldn’t have thought that if you only got through half of the vid.

[@Pluveus]

The thing I've noticed about ST, who I like and agree with overwhelmingly, is that he's much more concerned with boots on the ground organizing than electoral politics. The local focus and introductory nature of his videos make him seem class reductionist at times, but I think it comes from being a little bit of a doomer. I don't think he's full Joker mode, but his videos have this "I'm pretty sure it's all gonna sink pretty soon, so let's make sure we have stuff to keep us afloat when it does," edge to them. One thing I've noticed about his advocacy in broader terms is that when he highlights successes of the former Soviet Union, he generally chooses eastern European states that have kept some of the better aspects of Soviet economic policies rather than lauding Russia or China. Note: The only critique Vaush has for the video is that it's a little class reductionist and downplays the distinction between Reps and Dems on more impactful social questions, which I think is a valid criticism.

[@falkorornothing261]

I've enjoyed ST and you tube fed me his channel before Vaush. I thought about skipping this clip. I would much prefer a debate/chat. I definitely skipped his take on pizza. Someone who is objectively 20% chicken nugget doesn't deserve a platform on criticizing pizza.

[@Pluveus]

@@JukeboxTheGhoul I have mixed feelings about that. While it's true that China is a state capitalist country that could be fairly accurately described as fascist, the jingoist way it's demonized in politics is very rooted in xenophobia and creating a more concrete "enemy" to separate ourselves from to justify the military industrial complex. ST doesn't condemn China as much as he should, but he doesn't really praise them either which is a very important distinction between him and a tankie.

[@neidhardt8093]

People really need to start watching videos before commenting.

[@jjkthebest]

1 year later 2nd thought: authoritarianism is good actually I'm usually pretty on board with his videos, but that one was insane

[@LudwigHorsecock]

And Hasan *still* supports this guy. Really sus especially when you take into account his taiwan, hong kong, and Ukraine takes. Oh and throwing around the phrase "NATO simp"

[@simontaylor2143]

A lot of his videos are like the one here rather than the authoritarian vid. I have increasingly noticed he likes to slip in praise for supposedly socialist dictatorships into otherwise reasonable videos though. Insisting China will inevitably dominate despite ever greater evidence to the contrary. The phrase "illegal dissolution of the Ussr" comes up a lot He uses the stalinist equivalent of dog whistles

[@voiceofreason467]

The $15 minimum wage being blocked by the Parliamentarian is irrelevant because it is literally a position with no power and can just be ignored. The idea that it would be challenged if it went through the reconciliation bill if they tried to pass it was nothing more than a suggestion being used as an excuse to say, "It's not Biden or the Dems doing this, it's the Parliamentarian!" It was basically as Second Thought said, "giving up on the fight for $15 before it even began." The infrastructure bill going down like that is predominantly because of the Republicans... wait what? Are we forgetting that Manchin and Sinema as well as other corporate backed Dems literally worked in tandem to reduce it and the Dem party did nothing to fight or argue against it. If the Dems fought against it and reigned in or berated their corporate stooges, we would have most of what was promised instead of the gutting that we got. The point of this part is to say that Dems enabled this to happen by working with the Republicans... and that is true.

[@malum9478]

i'm not done yet, but if i'm getting this comment correctly: the point is that the entire reason we even worry about people like sinema and manchin is because the republicans are all completely out of the question. the only reason we get angry at dems is because they're literally the only thing we have as republicans are completely untenable with...well, life? goodness? the concept of love? which is why when shit goes south it's ultimately always the republicans' fault. if we didn't have to worry about them, it'd be much easier to fight back against the establishment dems in the first place, and put the bulk of the blame on their shoulders.

[@voiceofreason467]

@@malum9478 Not the point I was making but definitely a good point to make. My point was that the Dems could bully Manchin and Sinema a lot to fall in line and do things about replacing them, but instead they all act buddy buddy to these corporate shills and never given them any amount of pushback. And whenever Justice Dems literally give any kind of pushback as much as they can, then they get told to back off.

[@NomastiAfricanWarlord]

​@@voiceofreason467 I always hear this statement. "Why don't the Dems fight more!" But it's always come across as vague and unhelpful. What do you mean "fight?" How do you think other Democrats can bully Manchin and Sinema into voting for their agenda? Manchin is a Democrat in West Virginia. He's probably the only Democrat who could. What power do you think the Democratic Party has over Manchin?

[@voiceofreason467]

@@NomastiAfricanWarlord Well, given that the BBB Act has huge support in his own state, you could literally threaten to run ad campaigns in his state blaming Manchin for watering the Bill down and making it ineffective and threaten to advocate for a candidate who will support it to replace him, and primarily run the ad that are adjacent attacking Manchin as an endorsement of that candidate. Hell, find a local Republican in that state, build him up, promote him to West Virginian's and boom... you have a literal Democrat Conservative that isn't beholden to corporate oil interests like Manchin who will vote for a second run at a BBB Act that is more substantial. I just came up with this off the top off my head, if I were running strategy for the Dems, this is the threat I would use. I would also threaten to run ads exposing why Manchin isn't voting for this stuff, primarily by exposing the interest his family has in fossil fuel companies and literally express it as him using his position to enrich his children, those in West Virginia would be furious and willing to vote him out and replace him with another Dem that is attacking him for that. There you go, viable strategy that I just came up with. IIRC, Kyle Kulinski literally proposed similar strategies on dealing with malcontented people. I don't know who's been talking to you, but this seems like a fairly obvious strategy to me.

[@NomastiAfricanWarlord]

@@voiceofreason467 Right, and when that campaign fails (because Manchin is very popular in his own home state). You would have alienated an ally who is now going to be less willing than ever to tow the line. The problem with threats like yours is that they only work once and if they fail, they'll backfire immediately. Furthermore, voters literally do not give a shit about financial corruption cases here in America. Every election year there are ads running against incumbents about their insider trading or connections with lobbyists. They almost always fail. People assume all politicians are corrupt and all of them engage in financial crimes. So why would a politician doing what they deem is "typical" affect their voting choices? What you think is a viable strategy isn't really a good one. As I said before, it can only work once and if it fails, Manchin' will have even less support for any future bills or laws. Democrats are not popular. They're not popular among their base and they aren't popular among general voters. Furthermore, there is no "Donald Trump" of the Democratic party. There is no one person who has so much clout and influence their endorsement can affect election chances. Side Note: Did you really suggest finding a local Republican to run against Manchin? That's the dumbest idea ever. If Manchin doesn't support a bill, a republican wouldn't either. You'd be replacing Manchin with somebody who vote even MORE against the Democratic leadership's agenda.

[@Pupusita665]

Now we know the answer… yes.

[@craznutz4427]

Update: yes. Yes he is.

[@vantahawk2834]

It's been a few months since I watched an ST vid but they never struck me as tankie vibes in the slightest. And if that is still the case, and I'd be surprised if it isn't, I think we should be careful with that accusation. Vaush did his minimal diligence though by checking out at least one recent vid in good faith. What I find more worrying is how triggerhappy some people in chat were. If calling the US political system a duopoly is too spicy for you, I really don't know how you're calling yourself a leftist. With how audiences tend to blindly reduce and amplify the recent takes of their favourite streamers, I do worry that the pendulum has swung a bit too far in the opposite direction w.r.t. the "tankie" discourse. The somewhat conflationary rhetoric around "tankie", "BernieBro", etc. facilitated by Vaush does not help either.

[@hemantkarasala5767]

Correct take. Remember, Vaush's chat has liberals too, he has a mix of people. And a lot of the chat are trigger happy kids.

[@TheDoomSheep]

Yea this kind of accusation just seems like drama baiting. Doing the negative labelling thing to other leftists even if he mostly took it back during the video is a bad way to title the video and its unfair.

[@nationradical]

Nah when he called out any opponents to state socialist projects as being dupes for American imperialism (in his Cuba video) that was a red flag. Like I get that Cuba did some good things especially under such US pressure and cruelty but why label criticism of its project as reactionary?

[@paiosfranen]

@@nationradical opponents doesnt equal critics. Criticism of socialist states is necesary and positive and all tankies do it. Opposing on the other hand is wrong, because if you oppose socialist states you are defacto supporting its dialectical enemy, US imperialism and capitalism. How are you gonna beat capitalism with a divided left?

[@Eden-LikeTheGarden-Rama]

The issue isn't that calling it a duopoly is too spicy but too reductive and promotes voter apathy.

[@r.h.f.6073]

eh, idk about some of Vaush's takes. The Dem party absolutely does stand in the way of working class initiatives, it's not a matter of them trying to advocate for us but just doing so ineffectively because they are not socialists.

[@zen_tewmbs]

Por que no los dos? Also in the cases where the Dems stand in the way of working class initiatives, are there any where the Republicans would be better on? Or are the R’s equal at best and usually MICH worse on every issue?

[@r.h.f.6073]

@@zen_tewmbs i vote for democrats and i advocate it to people, because they are preferable to republicans in almost all the ways in which the parties are differentiated. that doesn't mean that the democrats don't stand in the way of the working class too: they absolutely do, Vaush was wrong when he claimed otherwise.

[@zen_tewmbs]

@@r.h.f.6073 where did Vaush flatly say that Democrats do not ever stand in the way of the working class? I have seen no part where Vaush said that let alone meant that.

[@zen_tewmbs]

@@r.h.f.6073 in fact, Vaush directly says almost the says the opposite of what you claim he does around 30:47 in this video.

[@r.h.f.6073]

@@zen_tewmbs I wrote this comment as a response to 15:30, where he says exactly what I said he says verbatim

[@dvoid665]

You called it.

[@Hubin12]

Vaush was right HAHAH

[@fuzzybuzzy3159]

Honestly every person on the planet has sussy takes in some aspect, ST is far too valuable in online discourse and conservative deprogramming to rid of. We can disagree with people without hating them especially if they're useful for the greater good.

[@njm2699]

I guess, but me personally I think in the greater aspect of things he doesn’t necessarily bring any nuance to the table on any subject at all. Yes, he does provide easily accessible information for people considering or open to leftist ideas, but at the same time we need those people that are open to those ideas to be knowledgeable enough to uphold those leftist ideas. I think there are content creators albeit who create much more well nuanced and detailed content that may not always be easily accessible for those audiences who overall provide a greater good for leftist thought and ideas. I mean even listening to short clips of Noam Chomsky or going over a Lonerbox video I think personally has a much more beneficial impact than ST content does.

[@onlythefamily1003]

@Jean Sanchez ST is pro China

[@AposineYT]

Well now we know.

[@EvillClown11]

Alongside Vaush and Some More News, Second Thought would be one of the first places I direct someone looking to get involved in leftists politics. I think he can articulate leftist ideas in a way that is very palatable to Liberals and neutrals and I think that’s very valuable.

[@sassyviking6003]

I would add to that Beau of the fifth column, since he is really good at reaching out to people who are not to the left yet, and meeting them where they are. It is the whole point of his content. I only recently started to watch vaush and he isn't my favorite, but I watch everything second thought and some more news put out.

[@blurined5351]

Gravel Institute is also pretty good for some shorter videos.

[@EvillClown11]

@@sassyviking6003 haven’t seen them before will have to check them out 👍🏾

[@omegatheta1701]

Man, second thought sure did wear his “not a fuckin complete psychopath” mask well till he did that “ Ukraine should just surrender to Russia” video recently

[@InfiniteDeckhand]

Indeed. And quite prophetic that Vaush kinda called it from the very beginning, too. Other people are just way too naive.

[@omegatheta1701]

@@InfiniteDeckhand i will give second thought some credit... he hid his power level extremely well, if i hadn't seen his anti ukraine screed at tankiecon 2023 for myself i would hav ejust thought he was another leftist with some weird ideas.

[@Jonas-qg6jw]

I can only agree that, from a german perspective, both parties look right wing af. Like, our main right wing partiy is liberal by your standards

[@HMDHEGD]

And Germany looks very conservative from a danish standpoint. America got that mad right wing swag

[@dominiks5068]

Afd is absolutely not liberal by American standards, that's a pretty outlandish claim - Afd would be seen as a right-wing party in the US, just like in Germany obviously Germany is significantly more left-wing with certain economic issues + health care, that's true for sure

[@Jonas-qg6jw]

@@dominiks5068 the main right party is the cdu. The afd is literally a nazi party and I would refer to them as such.

[@dominiks5068]

@@Jonas-qg6jw ...but almost no one except for lefties calls the CDU a right wing party in Germany, they are generally seen as a centrist party, (especially since Merkel) so my point still stands. but whatever, doesn't matter anyway

[@Jonas-qg6jw]

@@dominiks5068 then call them center right for what I care. If you look at the political compass, that’s where they stand. So I think it’s fair to call them the main right wing party.

[@LibertarianLeninistRants]

Question: Is Second Thought A Sussy Tankie KZbin Channel? Simple Answer: No. Complex Answer: No! This whole speaking of leftists being "sus" or looking for every little small word which could give away some hint about their "secret underlying agenda" is extremely bad towards establishing a meaningful discourse in the leftist community

[@aqwthetroop]

Yeah absolutely, and it's also important to note that if we're trying to pass legislation on specific issues that the left overall agrees on it's more efficient to work together on those issues than try to nitpick who's more 'puritan'.

[@postmodernmarxistnihilist4282]

Lefties eat their own while the far right strengthens and conspires each passing day. It's really sad.

[@TheSquareOnes]

Challenging people who are ideologically similar to you but just wrong enough to be at odds can actually be extremely important, since people are who further away from both of you will tend to see you as being "the same" and their bad arguments can taint the perception of your good arguments. You can actually see a really easy high-profile example of this with american conservatives, where anyone who has a "decent but misguided" stance on small government automatically gets lumped in with the religious fundamentalists, bigoted hatemongers and now literal neo-nazis that they've collectively let infest the republican party. Obviously when we're talking about niche socialist talking heads on twitch and youtube that's a very different scale and environment, but in the hypothetical world where the far left suddenly becomes a major force in american politics we don't want that to be corrupted by the presence of tankies and other "similar but problematically off" groups that will be lumped into the public perception of the party. Challenging these people now is nowhere near the highest priority but it is still ultimately beneficial and worth doing in the long-run.

[@zen_tewmbs]

@@TheSquareOnes i simultaneously agree with you and Postmodern Marxist.

[@MsSnoozable]

I overall agree. However when the right blindly bolsters anyone who is on their side for that moment, they also bolster neo nazis and conspiracy theorists. I think we need to be mindful of these things as they exist and address them to keep things in check. It's sort of like how man hating wasn't really addressed in the feminist movement and it held back feminism in a lot of ways. We don't have to oust them, just be aware and address it when it becomes an issue. The whole professor flowers stuff stemmed from the same thing I think.

[@iPsychlops]

The coverage of Bernie wasn't just bad, in many instances he was just ignored or left out, not treated as a serious candidate, etc. That was far more damaging than "negative press". Which the Republicans and Democrats seemingly both knew. Because they covered Trump relentlessly instead of ignoring him, and we know they both preferred Trump to Bernie. Also regarding the reduction to class issues, think the argument by second thought is that we can't win power if we focus on culture war issues, but we can win power if we focus on class issues, and if the left wins power the culture issues will follow.

[@davidm1926]

"Because they covered Trump relentlessly instead of ignoring him, and we know they both preferred Trump to Bernie." - Bear in mind, much of the media may have felt it was safe to cover Trump in 2016, because he got ratings, but was fundamentally an un-electable clown. Bernie was far more credible, therefore dangerous. Coverage might have been different if they really thought Trump could win.

[@hangukhiphop]

"Bernie did get a lot of media coverage" BS what is vaush thinking man

[@neidhardt8093]

@@hangukhiphop I'm pretty sure that's true actually, at least for the last primary. The coverage being good or bad is a completely different conversation though.

[@iPsychlops]

@@neidhardt8093 he was completely ignored on several info graphics that had lower tier candidates.

[@IconicPhotonic]

I'm still not convinced the right cares at all about blocking social progress at a fundamental level. It really comes across as top-down talking points aimed to create a distraction from class issues, and push a wedge between people who otherwise might agree on some of these dangerous ideas. Sure, evangelical fundamentalism has spread some regressive rights issues, but even from an individualistic perspective, it shouldn't matter much if other people are "doing well" also.

[@andrewbrown1454]

To Vaush's chat, what is wrong with reducing complex topics to an easily digestible format that takes less than 15 minutes to express? If more time is needed to explore that topic then the reduced or summarized argument is a good place to start.

[@dmetriusmarch]

Hes not just being reductive. He frames thinks bad as well which is more the problem

[@oddjam]

That's the biggest goof here. I like Vaush, but he essentially does exactly what ST does in terms of simplifying these topics.

[@starthetankist979]

@@dmetriusmarch Example?

[@MrRazmut]

@@starthetankist979 Uhh, painting civil rights issues as meaningless culture war stuff? Or at least framing it in a way that can easily be interpreted that way? Pretty easy for someone to come away from that thinking it's a class reductionist take, no?

[@uninstaller2860]

It's the one trip syndrome. It started with carrying your groceries in one trip, then it went to reading books in one sitting to swalling carrots whole. No wonder everything has to be done in one take now. It's the real slippery slope. Soon people will do their sleeping in one go. Watchmakers will go out of business.

[@qtoelke6208]

STs “why you’re already a socialist” is top tier. A great way to convince libs. Might send to my mom

[@sockscav]

Agreed

[@TheTdroid]

Never got the impression ST was a tankie and my impression is that he does an alright job creating content that can help liberals recognize the flaws in the Democrats.

[@oddjam]

Agreed. I think he's vaguely sympathetic to ML ideas, but I wouldn't describe them as Tankie ideas in a million years.

[@screeno42]

The way he talks about China strikes me as a bit tankie, but that may very well be more due to simplifying for time rather than his actual take.

[@TheTdroid]

@@screeno42 Maybe, but I always understood his comments as "China is probably not as bad as US media tells it and the US has done far worse" than "China is a great state".

[@screeno42]

@@TheTdroid fair. The one that really raised a red flag for me is this one time(don't remember which video) where he brings up some shit that China has been accused of including the Uyghur genocide, and in his segue to how America is standing in a glass house on the issue he says "even if these are true" and my first thought was "what do you mean *if*?" Like, I would love to see him make a video sometime addressing(even if in his normally simplified format) the good(or at least better) faith criticisms levied at socialism and existing communist countries.

[@charlieputzel7735]

@@screeno42 I was wondering if that video would get mentioned. Honestly, it strikes me as a moment of oversimplifying too, though his collab partner on that video doesn't help his case.

[@thijsdaenen4980]

Now that second thought has exposed himself for the tankie that he is, the comment section is absolutly hilarious. I think that the signs that he is a tankie were there all along and Vaush succesfully snuffed him out. Maybe think about how you could spot these signes in the future.

[@fuglong]

I love second thought vids, great place for new lefties to learn and to open closed conservative eyes. Didn't ever get tankie vibes but shiii idk

[@DmitriPolkovnik]

That's the thing though, he makes very good videos that are usually presenting very agreeable arguments that even soc dem channels make frequently. Then something like the Cuba protests comes up and he'll make an awful, downright propagandistic video pretending you have to ignore the issues of the Cuban state or you're pro-American. Which is definitely tankie vibes.

[@DmitriPolkovnik]

Something about that just feels like dishonest and hiding power levels to me. Although his videos are still definitely a huge net good.

[@NarrowMullen]

Every now and then he throws in a pro CCP comment which throws me off a bit but overall good videos

[@rowbot5555]

He brought on bay 415 or something who was a CCP genocide denier for a video and kinda really sidestepped the issue of it himself, kinda leaving it very grey.

[@chasesigler9885]

@@DmitriPolkovnik its not ignoring the issues it's more about not advocating for interventionism

[@SirKemzyGodle]

For his potential flaws, I gotta admit that Second Thought was the one who drew me into leftism

[@Richard-jm3um]

He's cool, he's a real communist

[@mcdonalds5972]

Imagine being so mentally weak your entire political world view is changed by a fucking KZbinr lololololol

[@LudwigHorsecock]

As we would later come to find out, yes he is

[@LildawgBigbite]

A lot of us would never be sitting here with vaush discussing this in the first place had second thought not laid the ground work. I, like many others, effectively had our eyes opened by second thought that then led us to study further and get more into the complexities. That’s a far more important role that he plays and he deserves credit. Vaush is the kind of guy you watch if you agree with him. Second thought is provocative and invites critics to watch his content. And a lot of those same critics begin to agree with him over time. I know I did. You don’t have that influence vaush. Righties aren’t coming to the vaush channel and leaving as leftists. That is literally the signature move of second thought. The reductive nature is important and necessary for what he does. I think you understand that more after watching his content. Fight WITH second thought vaush, not against!!! These dumbass labels we put on each other like “tankie” doesn’t help anyone on the left either, it only hurts our cause. As a right wing believer, how can I ever be persuaded to join the left when it seems the left can’t even agree with one another!!!

[@Specopleader]

It's almost like, you had a second thought. 🤔

[@Specopleader]

It's almost like, you had a second thought. 🤔

[@kami_dred7319]

@@Specopleader it’s almost like, you had a second comment 🤔

[@dannyeckerd9324]

@@kami_dred7319 sometimes that happens, KZbin will tell you that your comment didn't upload until you press re-upload and then it works but it actually worked the first time and you just uploaded again.

[@LildawgBigbite]

@@Specopleader hell yeah!!!!

[@Jeremy-hx7zj]

I can understand why so many of you reflexively commented on this video saying that vaush thinks ST is a tankie but the actual content of the video is not that. Vaush watches the video and decides its a pretty good video and he only has minor concerns.

[@mauvedragontiddies9244]

Well, I don't understand. Don't go ahead and talk about the contents of a video before watching the video, it's the same mistake Vaush did here and everyone else in the comments makes themselves look like a dumbass as well. I get the title is leaning towards clickbait, so at least that can be criticized.

[@Namazuros]

Shame about the total clickbait title. Not exactly a good faith vibe going in. Weird video in general.

[@oddjam]

Yeah

[@nanowithbeans2511]

This aged like wine.

[@dearyvettetn4489]

If Second Thought is a tankie then he’ll be the tankie I listen to in the interest of making my perspective on these issues a little broader. His videos and his podcast with Yugopnik (The Deprogram) have led me to explore more leftist theories including Marxism. I’m tired of listening to the slanted, simple-minded interpretations of these concepts and have decided to read them myself. Whether I agree with any or all of Marxist theories at least I’ll be aware of the lies being told when I hear them.

[@florianfelix8295]

The problem is more that you will find the exact bland misrepresentations about other leftist politics on their channel, like hakims video about anarchism/libertarianism. And I don’t think “we” are at a point where we can use this. Marxism simply doesn’t have much of a cooperative history in the left.

[@littlestone1541]

Not that my opinion is worth much given that we don't exactly know one another at all, but as a fellow traveler i think that you've got the right idea. Broaden your perspectives and make up your own mind comrade.

[@paiosfranen]

Well done comrade! Many dogmatic "vaushites" dont even bother to learn what marxism and marxism-leninism is and just call "tankie" everything they dont understand. Glad you are open minded, we need more people like you

[@conservativepatrioticstrai5218]

Well, turns out he is. Does your imposition still hold?

[@user-yr8ge3fz8o]

I've always strongly thought that he had sussy tankie vibes, but that his goal is to make entry level content and is self aware enough to do that successfully

[@StaggersonJagz]

Really weird to judge people off of """vibes""" not what they actually say and produce

[@Rosa-xg8tb]

@@StaggersonJagz I'm pretty sure he got some typically 'tankie' takes in his videos and he did a collabs with straight up unapologetically pro china tankies. I think that's what person above meant by 'vibes'

[@StaggersonJagz]

@@Rosa-xg8tb well I wouldn't call that vibes lol

[@Problematist]

I mean they replied "More big brain content from daddy Hakim 🙌" on a video about North Korean defectors being fake all essentially based around one person, Yeon Mi-Park, grifting. Also its not supposed to be entry level content, they constantly say it's meant for leftists which explains why there's so little effort in appealing to liberals and reductiveness.

[@Revanaught]

He's occasionally made some sussy tankie remarks, especially in his video on Cuba where he made an off hand remark at the end thst really seemed like he was denying that wieger genocide. But I was never 100% sure until he endorsed Hakim recently.

[@GBomb9704]

Is ST a Tankie? Short Answer: yes Long Answer: Yes he is.

[@davidisrael9799]

He's right. Most dems would rather lose to Trump if winning means someone like Bernie becoming president. Their behavior makes this self evident.

[@oolacilesbotnet6564]

When India Walton won the Dem nomination "vote blue no matter who" died real dang quick

[@kalsabrain1370]

@@oolacilesbotnet6564 You can talk?!

[@oddjam]

This is called "the iron law of institutions" and it's a famous phenomenon

[@randomthings1293]

@@kalsabrain1370 Right? I legit thought they were a bot.

[@salokin3087]

There is almost no evidence for this claim, the polling data showed overwhelmingly dems would vote Bernie over Trump, like around 90+%

[@JARV9701]

The Vaushite Empire has claimed another victory.

[@KHR0M3K0R4N]

Vaush is right about everything except food and music. This is just on brand.

[@Coliflower185]

@@KHR0M3K0R4N and media

[@SuperCrazy902]

This video feels kneejerky and predisposed towards negative interpretations of ST's content. Vaush admitted the republicans actually push further right, and that Dems on some level actively hinder moving left, but then rushes to defend Dems for giving up on and not fighting remotely as hard as Republicans do to move further left. There are valid reasons to abandon the minimum wage proposal or massively shrink the infrastructure bill, but they dont keep up the messaging and attack republicans for shrinking it or killing it, they just sit on their hands and go back to business as usual in complete silence.

[@InfiniteDeckhand]

Well, what do you know? Vaush's ended up being right about someone yet again.

[@thehoodlum1919]

Second thought is amazing. If he’s a “tankie” then that word has no meaning.

[@Vegimak]

Tankies is what feds like vaush call Marxist-Leninists. It has no meaning beyond shutting down Marxist-Leninist thought alongside "Genocide Denier"

[@ErinRobinson314]

@@Vegimak feds???? lmaoooooo y’all are so paranoid. he was just analyzing the video that’s all

[@Vegimak]

@@ErinRobinson314 nah I just like to call vaushites feds, it (demonstrably) pisses them off. Edit: ok nvm lol after recent events vaush is 100% an imperialist plant in "Leftist" Circles

[@Zymru]

what does 'tankie' mean? i always assumed a tankie is a leftist who thinks stalin's and other dictators' actions were entirely justified, that their 'personal failings' are irrelevant to 'the movement', and that we should strive to implement their theories exactly as they did in their time, as opposed to a leftist who is critical of those historical figures for being problematic [murderers, racists, pedophiles, and depending on the definition used genocide perpetrators too] and engage with their theory critically and with a foot planted in modern world material reality. is that wrong?

[@Vegimak]

@@Zymru that is a common misconception and it can't be further from what "tankies" actually think. Marxist-Leninists generally have positive opinions on these socialist leaders listed, but Marxist-Leninist believe that that these leaders were in-fact not dictators and that leaders such as Stalin are constantly lied about by the bourgeoisie to the people of Capitalist society. Now, alot of western Leftist like to pertain a "moral" high ground and accept these lies as absolute fact when there isn't any proof of such atrocities done by Socialist leaders or perhaps they did do a bad thing and it is blown way out of proportion. Ask any Marxist-Leninist for criticism of AES leaders and Countries and they will 1000% give you some, but they like to remain optimistic about socialist history. A point generally brought up is "Stalin killed ___ million people" but there is never any evidence to back up these claims, and if there is it's generally a famine that took place in a post feudalist, non-industrial society in the middle of WW2, but we ask ourselves, why is Stalin to blame for all of this? Why would Stalin purposely start a famine in his own country?

[@pepela8214]

A conversation with second thought would be awesome to see.

[@GabiGhita]

ST is a net good. Sometimes the picture he paints is a bit pixelated but you have to start somewhere. I'm glad he has so many subs and his content is a great intro for newbies. Also, agree so much with the last thing Vaush said about Democrats and their messaging.

[@littlestone1541]

I'm a second thought "fan" and a Vaush "fan". What I would like to see from Vaush is him fulfilling his promise to "bully Biden, bully him relentlessly once he's in office." He said during the elections, (and i agree that from the point of view of US internal politics it makes sense for lefties to vote for Biden over Trump), "We get Biden into office and from then on I'll be criticizing EVERYTHING that he does wrong RELENTLESSLY." This just isn't happening.

[@TheseBitchesWantNikes]

Its not because Vaush is not in good faith

[@littlestone1541]

@@TheseBitchesWantNikes Nah, can't be... can it.

[@melaniey.5596]

I mean there was the criticism Vaush levied Biden by how he handled the pulling out of Afganistan (very badly), and how it left a power vacuum in the region that left things worse for the people there. Does it count?

[@oolacilesbotnet6564]

@@melaniey.5596 lol Vaush is so trash

[@Okuni_]

@@melaniey.5596 of course the only thing Vaush criticize Biden is he not being interventionist enough

[@domsquared9878]

He literally ended the video saying that a major risk of the rightward shift was the descent of neoliberalism into outright fascism while showing footage from Jan 6. Seconds later you immediately start going on about how you're concerned he wouldn't admit the Republicans pose a serious threat to democracy and are becoming fascists and may not treat Jan 6 seriously. I'm glad this didn't become as bad as the title implies, but I'm beginning to fear that for all your claims of others being reductive and not accounting for their biases, you seem to have a rather large blind spot where people further left than dem-socs are concerned, where you seem eager to make assumptions from what is said or left unsaid to label them outright as tankies or nazbols. Of course it is a concern but lately I've noticed it coming off more as you looking for something you can bend into the mold rather than allowing it to make itself evidentiary and I don't like that because you are one of the leftists I have the highest opinion of so I'd rather not see such foolishness.

[@imeowmeowkat]

Agreed.

[@araxiel569]

"He literally ended the video saying that a major risk of the rightward shift was the descent of neoliberalism into outright fascism while showing footage from Jan 6." Well, your first sentence is filled with lies already. The January 6th insurrection is not mentioned or shown once in his entire video. The footage shown at the end 29:19 is from Biden's inauguration on Jan 20. Further he does not use the word decline. His specific quote is: "if we want to stop the inevitable transformation of neoliberalism into outright fascism" You skipped multiple steps and immediately went to the most charitable interpretation; that's that him saying that neoliberalism will both worsen things to a point where people will seek out fascism and also (neo)liberalism will be too weak and incapable of stopping fascism. However, for me, taking into account Second Thoughts complete refusal to engage on any social issues, and also downplaying things like trans rights, minority rights, sexual reproduction rights, all of this as "minor aesthetic differences" (4:41) is actually very sussy class reductionism. And as such that line reveals much more an equivocation of neoliberalism and fascism; just a rephrasing of the "fascism is capitalism in decline" bullshit. Trans people are workers. Trans rights are worker rights. Calling this "minor aesthetic differences" is appalling. I'm beginning to fear that for all your claims of others not accounting for their biases, you seem to have a rather large blind spot where people more reactionary than libs are concerned.

[@scoutbane1651]

There's literally a crapton of people in the comments of this video talking about how Vaush was "wrong" on Bernie or Bust. Maybe Second Thought isn't anywhere near the worst offender on this part, but rhetoric very similar to his is consistently being used to downplay the threat of fascism and equivocate neoliberalism with it. This is just an indisputable fact, and there's a bunch of people who are guilty of this. I do think the video is still much better in this respect than a lot of other channels, but it's undeniable people have gotten brain rot from similar stuff, so I think it's fair to be weary of it

[@KHR0M3K0R4N]

And now how do you feel?

[@robertwinslade3104]

I get that there are probably some Tankie-ish undertones to some of ST's content which I would disagree with but he produces a LOT of great left-wing content. Please don't start pointless drama for no reason. Just have a good faith discussion directly with him

[@stereoraptor6940]

i cringed when vaush immediately started talking shit cuz thats such bad optics

[@paiosfranen]

@@stereoraptor6940 vaush is an idiot for this exact reason. He spends more time criticizing "tankies" than criticizing liberals, but then claims he supports left unity.

[@ragingroyal729]

@@paiosfranen Modern progressive liberals don't usually deny past historical crimes and support non-Democratic regimes.

[@paiosfranen]

@@ragingroyal729 denying "crimes" that didnt happen isnt denying crimes, its telling the truth. There is ample evidence and one must just look for it

[@ragingroyal729]

@@paiosfranen Send sources of the forced mass deportation of people by Stalin didn't happen, send your sources that Stalin didn't have a role in the Katyn Massacre. If you aren't going to present sources then shut up.

[@kapelski104]

Second Thought helped me see the flaws in capitalism and I turned into a lefty as a result. It's a good channel and we should all work together to have a more united left instead of doing this "sussy tankie" witch hunt.

[@troutwithclout3861]

Unironically, Tankies also hate fascism, capitalism and conservatism which is something alot of leftists seem to forget.

[@roshe7887]

Yeah this shit is annoying. Our biggest problem right now is capitalist realism, left’s goal right now should be convincing people that another economic system can exist. This infighting is putting the cart before the horse.

[@rebbecawitt581]

Trueeeee

[@rowbot5555]

Sussy takes from ST made me unsubscribe later but he definitely seems good In moving people left.

[@lukasfrykas7188]

I agree, in particular look at kuzguzart’s latest video about the need to be reductive for less knowledgeable audiences Vaush!

[@spaghettayyyyyy]

Second Thought is CRUCIAL to the movement and mostly spot-on.

[@ExiledSummoner]

I hope im not going full tankie because hearing vaush defend the democrats against some of these points is rough on my ears lol

[@GalacticNovaOverlord]

Too late lol

[@ExiledSummoner]

@@GalacticNovaOverlord fuck XD

[@user-uz4hx2cg7m]

Feds like vaush label anything slightly left of bernie as “tankie” also bitching about his slightly off but sometimes rational takes is ironic considering the plethora of shit takes vaush has

[@elk3407]

I'm absolutely not tankie and I never will be, but yah that was kinda cringe.

[@TheseBitchesWantNikes]

I'm about fucking sick of it. He went from "we're gonna bully Biden left" ---> "we shouldn't go after the democrats too hard even though they own EVERY FUCKING BRANCH!"

[@originalulix]

So he's actually been visited by DHS agents who asked him about his ideology and such. Pretty based.

[@originalulix]

@darzsh Come on.

[@CadillacEulogy]

@darzsh least delusional vaush hate watcher

[@hi__im_zack4890]

This wasn't that sussy of a video, at least not compared to his other ones. He made one on credit scores, were he mostly made good arguments against the credit score system, but then he starts defending the China social credit score system. To be as charitable as possible, he more compared the severity of the two systems rather than just saying the social credit score was good, but it would be hard to not interpret what he did as defending the social credit score.

[@Infinite_voyager]

Defending China is stupid, but the credit score system in the US is extremely fucked as well. You can agree witch the correct points and be critical of the stupid points (as you should do even with Voushes content, because no one is a prefect advocate).

[@hi__im_zack4890]

@@Infinite_voyager yea, thats what I was saying. I just felt second thought wasn't that critical of the social credit system.

[@banquetoftheleviathan1404]

You can defend an action without defending everything other thing they do. Like china cracking down on homework and im not gonna pretend thats a bad thing just cuz its china. You know homework is some fucked shit

[@mikeyorkav4039]

How did he defend a credit system in china that doesnt even fucking exist? There was a trial run mainly for businesses in one town in china and it was scrapped. Holy shit. Stop listening to libshits like vaush.

[@hi__im_zack4890]

@@mikeyorkav4039 Were you taught how to read? If so, I suggest you reread my comment (although who are we kidding). You'll have to use your brain for this one, but I'll help you through it. First, China is using a social credit system. If you deny that, then I think the Chinese government would disagree with you, but that is ok; facts are hard. Second, if you are talking about a FICO-like credit system, as exists in the US, you will find that I never suggested that second thought was defending such a credit system in china. You see, while I started the comment talking about a "credit system" (for which I was referring to FICO), I ended talking about "the social credit score" or "the China social credit score system" (referring to the social credit system that the Chinese government says exists, even today). Did you pick up on the difference? I know it's hard, but I assure you there is a difference between the two things I talked about. Hint, it's the word "social," and it's an important word in the context of my argument.

[@aklszkopek3470]

Sussy? Without even watching any video? And then trying to nitpick very hard? Seems like this is just prejudice to me. To clarify: i like vaush and i get why he is so coutious about tankies. But this attitude is not helpful to the left.

[@MrRazmut]

Wait, hold on. When did Vaush say it was sussy?

[@castillogrande8926]

Second Thought literally claimed that "The Soviet Union under Stalin was collectivist! Look, the FBI said so!" Like, he's far from being as egregious as some "Auth-Left" KZbinr, but he's still fully capable of having some dog shit takes.

[@littleredruri]

Well, everyone's capable of having dog shit takes. I don't really know anything about this guy, but if he's usually good but has bad takes every now and then, he's still overall good, right?

[@bensparrow3356]

That's not an untrue statement; it just lacks context and nuance whereby saying the statement without that context and nuance can and does lead people to false conclusions.

[@StaggersonJagz]

You mean like everyone

[@konstantinkelekhsaev302]

Care to explain why that is a bad take ?

[@johnnyquantum8125]

if you didn't know he literally full on defended china, he praised china, he's pro china, he's a tankie

[@basedmuscleman6539]

second thought helped me get into anti capitalism pretty early into my engulfment into the world of leftism. i’m sure he has some dogshit takes but i don’t know if anything he’s done is worth burning bridges with him

[@rowbot5555]

Net positive to the left but still got sussy takes as hell

[@basedmuscleman6539]

@@rowbot5555 i haven’t watched the whole video yet. what were some of his more sussy takes ?

[@rowbot5555]

@@basedmuscleman6539 platforming a CCP genocide denier and leaving it very ambiguous of what he thought was going on, as well as calling china real socialism, as well as almost rabidly defending the cuban govt from critique during the protests

[@basedmuscleman6539]

@@rowbot5555 criiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinge

[@oldflowers1342]

@@rowbot5555 Yeah, the whole Cuba thing was kind of weird. I'm kind of new to the left, so I've been getting some mixed messages. You have Americans like Second Thought praising Cuba, but then you have actual Cubans online saying that Cuba is doing terrible things. So like... what is the truth? I generally like his videos as a whole, but as a baby leftist, it can be a bit confusing.

[@MountSilky252]

He's reductive in the same way that an intro course is. He's good at condensing complex political matters into easily digestible content.

[@rlh1984]

The fact that he speaks favorably of Justice Dems, Bernie Sanders, and the DSA should be proof enough that he’s not a tankie.

[@locuraromantica]

He doesn't speak favorably, he realizes that supporting them isn't enough, that by itself is against what those "political parties" and movements preach.

[@BruhWhyDidTheyChangeThis]

I remember the peak of COVID where it was getting around election season and I would be watching Hasan, smoking, watching second thought, and looking a pictures of burning cop cars while drinking my coffee. 2020 😌

[@jahkaifrierson2482]

Same 🥺😮‍💨

[@joaovictorpessoaqueiroz4783]

"I guess if we wanna see really negative stuff, we need to listen to his podcast with Hakin, right?"🤔 Now I know where the uncharitable title comes from.

[@untraceablefgc-9mkii251]

Exactly, his podcast Is very nice and unfortunately Vaush can't get over the propaganda of the west about the USSR. "Tankie" Is literally just a buzzword and a useless mean to to create a counterpeoductive Red scare on the left.

[@untraceablefgc-9mkii251]

Exactly, his podcast Is very nice and unfortunately Vaush can't get over the propaganda of the west about the USSR. "Tankie" Is literally just a buzzword and a useless mean to to create a counterpeoductive Red scare on the left.

[@joeyjose727]

@@untraceablefgc-9mkii251 I think it’s more that Hakin/Hakim (I thought it was Hakim?) And Vaush aren’t besties and that’s why he had preconceived notions about Second Thought At least at the end of this video he basically agreed with everything Second Thought said, I doubt this will be drama unless ST takes particular offense to the clickbait title

[@guyincognito7979]

Also yugopnik

[@GalacticNovaOverlord]

@@guyincognito7979 yeah, he's great too

[@eoghan.5003]

I've never found second thought overly interesting or entertaining, but I've certainly never got the impression they're a tankie. Vaush is probably jumping to conclusions.

[@nabielarwindra1143]

you should watch his cuba video and his social credit one

[@marciamakesmusic]

@@nabielarwindra1143 so two videos out of dozens

[@rowbot5555]

or the video where he collabed with bay 415, that had some sussy things there too.

[@REfan001]

@@nabielarwindra1143 how does that make someone a tankie

[@racewild9230]

@@marciamakesmusic yes but in the cuba video he makes a straight up tankie argument in the end, where hes says socialists schould stop calling socialist states authoritarian. he also does a lot of whataboutism in the video. he does great videos and all, the cuba one for example has like 95% totally agreeable arguments, but that statement at the end is just clear tankie talk

[@Versace_sheets]

Dude literally said "I've never watched a video, but we should be aware of his biases" bruh you aren't even aware of his content yet lmao

[@dogeatdog6157]

Lets not pretend that conservatives aren't more accepting of more liberal social trends then before.

[@ProjSHiNKiROU]

This is basically another ratchet effect that favors the left: but is much stronger in UK and Canada than US

[@dogeatdog6157]

@@ProjSHiNKiROU yeah, i was just noting how its a bit disingenuous to not mention this fact.

[@8pix793]

My transition to Socialism started with second thought, so unless he truly says some fucked up shit I’m supporting him either way

[@winnow1668]

I think this video made Vaush look like a sussy vehicle for the DNC, which would be the first time he's ever made me think that.

[@TheseBitchesWantNikes]

I agree. Some of this is some real mental gymnastics to defend the democrats and it's a bit sussy wussy.

[@mauvedragontiddies9244]

If that really made you think that, then it sounds like a you-problem. What was it? Pointing out that democrats aren't holistically terrible in everything they do, that they have better positions than Republicans? Nothing he said was objectionable, I think you're just crazy.

[@SefirothPH]

@@mauvedragontiddies9244 That's how you get what you want, yep. Don't push dems left or criticize, just be thankful for your crumbs and defend the whip that oppresses you

[@GalacticNovaOverlord]

@@mauvedragontiddies9244 And this is how more Trumps will get elected- bravo, getting more of the working class to back fascists.

[@GigasGMX]

As if the democrats failing to create material improvements in people’s lives won’t do the exact same thing.

[@rodrigodemiguellamminen5244]

I think his vids are quite solid. It's mostly pretty ground level stuff that is great at introducing people to leftist ideas. I do think that he sometimes goes too far into being "amicable" to China, but his content doesn't focus much on that kind of ideas. I think it's a great channel with a positive impact.

[@PersonCalledErin]

The "Is the American Century Coming to an End?" Video is the egregious one. Instantly raised my eyebrow. it's been a few videos in which I thought "ehhh that's kind of questionable" or "sounds like tankie dribble". but in that video, he straight up claims that China is socialist. It's nuts. He then goes on to praise China and it's ability to convert other countries to socialist ways of viewing the world

[@Khalkara]

Oof. That's a big yikes (from Second Thought)

[@LibertarianLeninistRants]

Because of your comment I rewatched his video "Is the American Century Coming to an End?" And I don't think you really understood it correctly what he said. At 11:53 he says: "China is in a far better position than previous hegemonic threats to stay the course, push back against the US and to win over the developing world to a more socialist understanding of economics". This is neither saying that China is socialist nor is it praise. It's stating the fact that China is currently doing better than the US when dealing with crisis and getting ready for the future. This obviously will cause a lot of countries to look more towards a chinese model. Whether or not China is socialist (its not, its a mixed state-capitalist and private capitalist system), since its economic system is literally called "Socialism with Chinese characteristics", everyone who looks at what China does and thinks thats worth emulating, has to gain some understanding of socialism. The chinese government has a massive involvement in the economy, this alone is already a strong detraction from the current neoliberal model of capitalist, where the state should stay away from economic matters. I also want to say something about this whole attitude I have seen in this community. This whole speaking of leftists being "sus" or looking for every little small word which could give away some hint about their "secret underlying agenda" is extremely bad towards establishing a meaningful discourse in the leftist community. And while we should be able to criticize and call out bad takes, this is just stupid what people are doing here. "Oh no, he has a hammer and sickle symbol, that means he is a tankie" or "Oh no, he didn't criticize the republicans more than the democrats, that means he is a Bernie or Buster" or "Oh no, he defended one policy from the Soviet Union that means he defended all of the things the Soviet Union did" - all of those are opinions that are of the twitter IQ level and should just stop. Thats not how we arrive at truth. We arrive at truth through HONEST and SINCERE discussion.

[@FelisImpurrator]

@@LibertarianLeninistRants If you want honest and sincere discussion, here's my honest and sincere take: Your argument just now was incredibly bad. People will not "gain some understanding of socialism" through looking to China. Ever. The Chinese state is literally a bad faith actor that uses the word "socialism" just as disingenuously as the Republican Party, only with the goal of promoting fascist-adjacent authoritarian state capitalism under the guise of socialism. It is literally an avenue by which the far right can infiltrate the left using left aesthetics.

[@cumulus1869]

@@LibertarianLeninistRants China is state capitalist as Lenin himself in his own words described the USSR. In this regard no one will ever gain any sense of socialism from China. This argument is incredibly disingenuous. Stop calling yourself socialist and start calling yourself a red fascist cause that's what you are.

[@BasedGodFlashy]

@@cumulus1869 Did you not even read his comment? He literally said China is state Capitalist. Also, Lenin called the USSR when he was alive state capitalist specifically because of the agricultural sector. He thought industry was already socialist. Once agriculture was reorganized he would have considered it socialist. I have quotes if you want proof. Also, this guy's comment didn't even come off as pro China at all he literally just said that China is doing Capitalism better than the US which is true. Stop calling people "red fascist" for knowing more than you.

[@thanasis-_-]

You are talking about if he has biases how do we know if you don't have biases

[@qwerty9797]

Vaush clearly is. He supports American imperialism.

[@user-tr9of6sl4p]

Second thoughts socialism videos are TOP TIER, but NEVER trust his foreign policy. 😬😬😬😬😬

[@corverickg7261]

Ah yes Vaush speaking on something he knows nothing about before actually diving into a topic, who could have seen that coming

[@Sotryn_Fox]

Maybe that's why he decided to check the person out...? So he wouldn't be, and I quote, "talking out of his ass" 🙃

[@ericktellez7632]

@@Sotryn_Fox How does Vaush’s boot tastes like?

[@estabear86]

If vaush didn’t go in with a presupposition that ST is a “sussy tankie”, I think he would’ve disregarded a lot more of the trifles he had.

[@rockduded8925]

The important thing to remember is that the Democrats' motto is "Never make anything better" and the Republicans' is "Always make things worse".

[@littlestone1541]

hehehe! That pretty much sums up US politics right there! Good one, comrade! ;)

[@kelvinnkat]

There are no legal consequences to ignoring the parliamentarian, their purpose is to offer non-binding suggestions only. They can be ignored by the ruling party, even fired. But as to whether they'd practically be able to in this particular case, the answer's a simple no because of the Democrats who voted down the part about the minimum wage, there's no way the ones who voted it down would vote for such a thing.

[@L.Bomrek]

what is the parliamentarian? Is it a person? legislation? media outlet?

[@Jallorn]

I got caught up imagining the consequences of if the Democrats had ignored the parliamentarian and passed the minimum wage increase. Like, even if it later got repealed as falsely passed, it would already have raised so many peoples' wages that reversing its legal standing would mean a monstrous fight to reverse its effects on the landscape of wages- a monstrous fight that would violently upset a lot of people.

[@verager2493]

@@L.Bomrek Functionally? Someone's neice.

[@verager2493]

Yes, the meat of the complaint is dems blaming the parliamentarian when the actual issue is dems who don't support minimum wage increases.

[@kelvinnkat]

@@Jallorn It's not possible for a bill that gets a majority in each house and a signature from the president to get "repealed as falsely passed" by anyone except the Senate, House, and perhaps President, provided it started in the right house for the bills where that's a constitutional requirement. The filibuster is a quirk in Senate rules that the Senate can ignore at any time; no one has the authority to punish a Senate majority that breaks the rules it sets for itself; not even the Supreme Court, it's entirely an internal matter.

[@Totoofwarful]

around 16:00 nope, Second Thought is right you have too much "faith" in the good will of democrats and you shouldn't

[@TheseBitchesWantNikes]

Spot on. Vaush is really being sussy in this vid.

[@GalacticNovaOverlord]

@@TheseBitchesWantNikes I hope people here learn to question the rest of Vaush's takes. Once he was for U.S. imperialism, that raised a red flag.

[@EeroMyrsky]

I ended up here after being a bit disgusted by Second Thought's most recent video and unsubscribing... And now it looks like I'll be subscribing here

[@SoChilledOutGuy]

Same

[@notarealfairy]

welcome :)

[@LudwigHorsecock]

I think you're in good hands here. Vaush DESPISES tankies

[@grundgesetzguy]

Same

[@theflaggeddragon9472]

13:30ish Okay, I love Vaush but I vehemently disagree. Democrats and literally everyone with half a brain knew that Republicans would not support decent infrastructure NO MATTER WHAT. There was NO REASON for Democrats to try and "compromise" with Republicans on their infrastructure bill. This was absolutely not due to Republicans, this was Democrats negotiating with "themselves" (their donors) and then blaming it on Republicans and the bill not being "moderate" enough (even though, issue by issue, the bill has overwhelming support). Dems blatantly gaslighted people about the bill being "too far left" (again, stuff like universal child care, free community college, medicare expansion, negotiating drug prices etc. have 60-80% support), and Dems gutted those provisions because they are corporate monsters. I expected a lot better analysis on this from Vaush. I feel like he came into this video with a preconcieved notion about Second Thought (legit disagreements are fine, come in with well-thought out critiques if you want), but Vaush just came into this nitpicking and being seriously dishonest. Seriously Vaush, do better. BTW I watch Vaush all the time, almost every upload. He's awesome, but a lot of this "analysis" was dogshit. Also, I'm not covering for Republicans. The fact that they have ZERO support for BBB should be pointed out constantly on the media, especially with a list of the overwhelming popular provisions they are voting against.

[@jjdude5531]

Vaush does get into a certain _bernie-or-bust bad_ mood

[@coleatwood2028]

ST is the first channel I go to in order to open up normies to left wing ideas. You could literally use his channel as a course for deprogramming someone from capitalist propaganda. A channel like Vaush is for people who are a little more advanced on their understanding of leftism.

[@theescoob8684]

also ST started that podcast with hakim and yugopnik

[@sataniccabal4276]

So what? Both make good content.

[@kobemop]

im sorry but vaush doesnt have an advanced understanding of leftism lol

[@whorror_punx]

Agreed. My comment had the same point. Saying how they were instrumental for me turning to the left and radicalized me.

[@VictorLopez-qm5kz]

@@kobemop Man, if Vaush counts as advanced... Then we truly are fucked.

[@jameskenny8821]

He doesn't make you feel like a doomer while talking about pessimism, no insulting clickbait also. He doesn't divide people, with "we the left" talk but talks about progressivism.

[@Infinite_voyager]

No, this is not a sussy channel. Vush is, or at least was being incredibly uncharitable just because ST works with Hakkim. Even fucking Hasan does react segments watching JTs videos, like come on… Edit: You can agree with the correct points Second thought makes and be critical of the stupid points as well (as you should do even with Voushes content, because no one is a prefect advocate).

[@krawieck]

wow, in 5 minutes you managed to watch the whole 40 minute video? youre pretty speedy ngl

[@Infinite_voyager]

@@krawieck maybe I watched it live but you have to find something to criticize my comment besides the content , because the content is based as fuck

[@krawieck]

@@Infinite_voyager oh yea i forgot that it was streamed live :P you can chill bro, i haven't even watched it. just pointed out (as i now realized - wrongly) that you commented on the whole thing when it was just uploaded a moment ago

[@zleeven]

I don't know, second thought those alot of obfuscation and what aboutism when it comes to china.

[@lurkingposter]

@@Infinite_voyager Sounds like you got baited by the click baity title without watching the video tbh.

[@Closer2Zero]

I feel like Vaush watching this and butting in every three seconds to call things reductive is the same as if he were to walk into word first grade science class and comment every time a teacher said something that was reductive when teaching the sciences

[@henrycrabs3497]

Cry harder Fanboy

[@Tacklepig]

I actually disagree that there's no objective measure to see that America has two right wing parties. At the very least, you could compare the parties' stances on issues to other similarly developed countries. For instance, I live in Germany. Compared to our system, the US very much has a center right and a far right party, and that's what I've always been telling my US friends. I'm pretty sure this would vary if you looked at the more progressive developed countries (Norway, Sweden, Finland) or the more conservative ones (UK, Canada, Australia). Don't really agree with the arguments made in this video though. I don't think any of these attributes makes the Democrats right wing, they're simply right wing when compared to the spectrum of parties in another comparable country.

[@dichotomae]

That’s still not objective since you’re still comparing them with other countries.

[@KARKAT420]

Well, on the other hand, you could compare the US parties to the Russia dictatorship by Putin, or any other country with far right governments, and come out with the view that Biden is a communist trying to create a fem catboy army (based). It’s all subjective because you’re just looking at America through a different lens, not an objective lens. The most helpful way to examine the American political system is through the American Overton Window, because that’s where America is. That’s not to say it can’t be helpful to compare the American parties to other countries, but you aren’t really going to be convincing anybody to join your side by telling to view it as a member of another country… because they’re American. Let’s not forget how notorious Americans are for being… well… American.

[@ryanosterman2651]

I have always argued that the Democrats are more center-right while Bernie sanders is basically a centrist.

[@AholeAtheist]

Yeah, the objectivity doesn't come from a comparison of other countries. It's really simple, if you can get to a point where you have 100% economic democracy, or a person that espouses such, you're far left, if you have 0 taxes and 0 economic democracy you're far right, and if you have some economic democracy in the sense you have many social programs or public industries funded by taxes with fairly decent conditions for unions to exist in but still existing inside a capitalist paradigm you're dead center. Inb4 bUt WhAt AbOuT dIfFeReNt GdPs?.. Irrelevant. See above.

[@AholeAtheist]

@@KARKAT420 No you couldn't. That's fucking dumb. No you shouldn't. That's fucking dumb.

[@linaiisaye8357]

I think there is some interesting content and you can definitely learn from it, but I did get tankie vibes from it as well. It seemed suspiciously pro China when it comes to Chinese imperialism, but extremely anti USA when it comes to US imperialism (which is fair on the USA part, but rather lenient to China...).

[@carlogaytan7010]

I dont think they have ever defended China. But they do seem to say America is the worst, implying that somehow China and Russia aren't like the worst places to live.

[@linaiisaye8357]

@@carlogaytan7010 the belt and road initiative is a good one. China traps countries in debt, meddles in their elections, takes their resources to fuel the economy back home. Its just imperialism. When the West does this we all criticise them for it, because it's bad.

[@carlogaytan7010]

@@linaiisaye8357 I think alot of people just think China is all the way over there, so they cant possibly be doing the sorts of things we are.

[@linaiisaye8357]

@@carlogaytan7010 I don't really follow?

[@carlogaytan7010]

@@linaiisaye8357 the tendency for some people to downplay China's wrongdoings.

[@ThePi314Man]

Not a tankie dumb take.

[@oddjam]

So you agree with the content

[@andrewbrown1454]

@@oddjam just not with the click bait

[@kobemop]

hes actually a tankie, but nothing wrong with that lmao.

[@Glenn..quagmire]

My head is going to explode if I read the word "tankie" one more time

[@flanthemanable]

Ironic that Vaush is complaining about people misrepresenting him when he does the same to other people

[@HomeMadeKrazy]

I really hope they have a conversation.

[@karunakannan191]

Anyone vaush disagrees the slightest bit with is a tankie. 100% logic

[@tofuteh2348]

Did you actually watch the video beyond getting angry at the clickbait title?

[@3Speedboy]

"He would downplay the January 6th riot" *Has a 30 minute video saying how bad the riot was

[@oddjam]

Yeah vaush guessed wrong, but I can understand it a bit. You really can tell that ST has some ML sympathy, but "Tankie" is def a stretch.

[@oddjam]

@@EggEnjoyer well that makes sense and I'm not surprised.

[@paiosfranen]

@@oddjam why do you people hate "tankies" so much? Do you even know what the "tankie" position is?

[@GalacticNovaOverlord]

@@paiosfranen their brains have been fried by Vaush to have tankie or ML be to them what socialist or communist is to a conservative.

[@paiosfranen]

@@GalacticNovaOverlord literally this. Vaush is doing a literal red scare, which can only be reactionary. Vaush is a petty bourgeois idealist moron, the Trotsky of the online left. Hes a cancer for online leftist discourse.

[@Nuvizzle]

I actually can't believe I'm hearing Vaush regurgitate the "Oh the parliamentarian said they shouldn't do it so what can we do about it really?" talking point. That holds about as much water as "But how will we pay for it???" considering the parliamentarian holds no real power and can just be replaced at will (which the GOP does all the time, because they actually want to do things politically). Please don't lend even a shred of legitimacy to the excuses of Democrats for why they don't do things they absolutely can do. Before this happened the vast majority of Americans had never heard the word "Parliamentarian" before because it's such an ass pull of a reason not to do something. And no, falling back to "Well yes they could have done it anyway but maybe it would've been on shakier legal grounds possibly idk???" doesn't make this sound any better because this is literally your job dude google it before you open your mouth.

[@elboob1921]

I sometimes wonder if Vaush really actually pays much attention to the general goings-on of politics besides the most shallow level.

[@dubiusindex8216]

I don't have to watch the video. He litterally deleted multiple of my comments critical of the CCP, so yes he is

[@lich109]

That could just be KZbin's awful automatic flagging system. As an example, if I post a link to news articles KZbin will automatically delete the comments, same if I use certain words.

[@dubiusindex8216]

@@lich109 then I'll try again. Here are the parts that I still remember and that could be problematic for youtube: still imperialism if China does it, invasion of Tibet, war in the south-china sea, Dalai Lama, skirmishes in Neapel, Kashmir

[@lich109]

@@dubiusindex8216 I had several of my comments auto-deleted by KZbin when I was arguing with anti-vaxxers, I'm not sure what exactly does it, but usually if your comment vanishes and you use that kind of language it's KZbin auto-flagging your comment.

[@SefirothPH]

@@dubiusindex8216 Dalai Lama is CIA so if you're in other channels defending him you are sussy neolib

[@SupermarketZombies]

I can't remember what the video was, but I picked up on some typical tankie talking points in one of his videos a while back...

[@WhiskeyTangoFoxtrot_YT]

I think ST does a good job representing our positions. They lack nuance, but I would argue that some of the concepts put forth by the likes of Wolff or Chomsky can also be critiqued as being overly simplistic. But this simplicity is key to convincing people toward our ideological precepts as an entry level understanding.

[@lunsen402]

while im unsure on second thought. I would like to se a convo between Vaush and ST it could be very intressting in fact

[@smileyp4535]

Commenting before watching, Second thought good Edit: after watching, yes I agree that it's important to focus on the open facism of the republican party, but if anything I feel this video comes from a place of that being assumed, I'd really like to see you guys talk. The 'left' is about working together and obviously people give you a lot of unessisary grief, so I'd like to see you speak with him or even get on the podcast with him, Hakim and yugopnik. I think you guys could become even more powerful together, Hakim isn't a bad guy, you guys disagree on things buts that's ok as long as the goal is ending of capitalism and emancipation of the proletariat through democracy and mutual aid. But yes, I'm glad you agree that second thought good

[@jasminecats1370]

That one video labeled a new red scare is coming looks interesting. Might go watch it and see

[@noname-bu1ux]

I really wish the term tankie would stop getting thrown around at everyone left of Obama.

[@nataliekhanyola5669]

Yup!!!!

[@KHR0M3K0R4N]

ST is a confirmed Tankie, and Tankies are to the left of absolutely no one.