Villains Can't Be Villains?

[@Oziach]

While I adore complex villains with tragic backstories and all the like, people severely undervalue villains who are solely evil for the sake of evil intent. Not all villains need to be complex. They simply should be compelling threats to the protagonist(s).

[@slenderhatesmillennials195]

Pure evil villains can be complex in a way, depending on how you write them.

[@blackchibisan8116]

Hawkmoth from Miraculous is a good compromise in this camp. Dude has a tragic story, but you can’t fake that genuine passion for evil. Dude only smiles when trying to kill two children for their magic jewelry. I get why he does what he does but I think it is the flimsiest excuse for the glee he takes in his work.

[@blacksesamecandies]

Consider this: We've had decades upon decades of villains written as purely evil, irredeemable pieces of shit that will do anything to achieve their goals. We've had over the top cartoony villains who love being evil JUST because. These can be fun or used effectively in narratives. ONLY RECENTLY did writers start trying to delve into more complex, tragic villains/antagonists. Because people love seeing how these people tick and how they got from point a to point b. Nuanced, deep and complex people who happen to do horrible things is more true to life. Anti-heroes can be fun fantasy-power trips that divulge our more unsavory desires. Now, can this also be done incorrectly or poorly? Of course. But ultimately ALL these types of villains have a place in media. We need all types to keep it fresh, otherwise, you get the same old predictable story that's been done a million times. We have had multiple types of protagonists and heroes, why not the villains? Like this complaint is such a weird one to me. That we can only have one type of story or we have to do things the old fashion way or yadda yadda yadda. Storytelling is an ART, it can be any which way.

[@slenderhatesmillennials195]

@@blacksesamecandies I do tend to like shows/films that have multiple villains (with some or one standing out as especially monstrous), but yeah, you're 100% right, storytelling is an artistic medium and there's no restrictive way to approach it.

[@crikeybaguette4564]

@@slenderhatesmillennials195 Sauron is a good example. While he is not complex by any means and is actually barely a character, what matters is what he represents, and how Tolkien uses him to comment on the nature of evil. (Yes, I watch Hello Future Me)

[@vividdaydream1516]

A well-done Sympathetic Villain: "I know what I'm doing is wrong, and I know that I'm going to face some terrible consequences for it. But I'm in so much pain that I _don't care_ what happens to me, as long as my goal is achieved in the end." A badly written Sympathetic Villain: "my sad backstory excuses me from the consequences of my actions!"

[@ashyroy9454]

A well-written crybaby villain: "My sad backstory excuses mass murder and if you think it's not I'll kill you"

[@ashyroy9454]

@The Clown him too, thought more about mha villian cast

[@DrBodyshot]

Dracula from the Castlevania series is a perfect example of this. While what happened to him was horrible, anyone would break from such a thing. It's still does not take away from the fact that he's intent on slaughtering millions upon millions of innocent people for the fault of a much smaller group of absolute monsters.

[@JoeMavro1]

@@DrBodyshot Dracula at least had a spark of goodness in him that he couldn't rid himself of, refusing to let Isaac die for him and letting himself be killed being prime examples. And that's enough to set him above a villain like Salem, who sees everyone as either an asset or an obstacle and just wants to spite her creators and her ex.

[@deathlydashi]

@@ashyroy9454 what did he say

[@kristofgriffin384]

One of my favorite aspects of villains is when they're showing their more casual side. As in moments when they're not doing anything particularly evil, and instead do things such as: walk their dog, have a hobby, or drink beer. This humanizes the villains and makes us empathize with them more, even if they're clearly bad people. For example, Yoshikage Kira and how he likes to take walks in the park, Beast Wars Megatron playing with his rubber ducky, or Aku waking up cranky in the morning.

[@flamestoyershadowkill6400]

Also Toguro saying he prefers orange juice

[@wyattcampbell2077]

wait, Megatron has a rubber ducky?! HOW AM I JUST LEARNING THIS NOW???

[@AtelierGod]

@@wyattcampbell2077 go watch beast wars!

[@wyattcampbell2077]

@@AtelierGod I just watched the clip Lmao! That made my day 10 times better

[@battybuddy]

Blossom: "What were you doing when we got here?" Mojo: "SLEEPING!" Blossom: "And before THAT?" Mojo: "READING THE PAPER!"

[@dededefran8910]

I hate how complexity in villans equates to them having a redemption arc now days. Just because they have a motive does not mean you have to redeem or make the audience sympathize with them.

[@sarafontanini7051]

to quote linakra: a sympathetic backstory doesn't mean they're sympathetic. MY little Pony and Fairy Tail are the WORST offenders of this.

[@varisugocsay1152]

@@sarafontanini7051 Fairy Tale? (I just don't know what show this)

[@MewGirlZ]

@@varisugocsay1152 It's an anime. Fairy Tail is the actual spelling of it. It's a long-running, shonen, action, fantasy, with a lot of villains turned allies . . . heck if you told me they redeem Acnologia in the end I wouldn't even be surprised. >_>

[@varisugocsay1152]

@@MewGirlZ Oh yes that one, but it is more eastern thing I guess at least what I saw whene I cared about anime staffs + Literature Devil have a great video about the western and eastern story telling where he lament about this fenomane. I'm more on the: If you make a truly evil character you have to be more broad and mythical (Sauron is a great example for that, but even he had a motivation)

[@MewGirlZ]

@@varisugocsay1152 Certainly!

[@Nasha842]

Personally, I think having flat evil characters tends to make the sympathetic villains more impactful. If you have nothing but sympathetic villains I find that their impact in the story is lessened.

[@BurningAzure]

Honest from Akame ga Kill and Those Who Slither in the Dark from Fire Emblem Three Houses are both good examples.

[@keiichimorisato98]

Same with FFXIV, each expansion has had two main villains, one is just out right unredemptively evil, and the other is a sympathetic villain who is still evil at the end of the day. Heavensward is a great example, the pope of the church is just straight up evil, meanwhile the evil Dragon was betrayed by humans and now wants revenge for the death of someone who was very one to him and his kin, and by the time the player is involved, he is too far gone to be redeemed, he has become a huge ball of anger and hatred and he must be stopped at all cost.

[@Tounushi]

That's why it's "profitable" to have your original villain be a dragon to a greater villain. If you have a long-running story, you can have the beginning with the first villain be as villainous as you can make him, then add a layer of complexity in the following parts and introduce a superior who is even more evil. Vader and Palpatine would be a prime example of this.

[@wakkaseta8351]

@@keiichimorisato98 I wouldn't say Thordan was straight up evil, just very, very, pragmatic and and very high on that "with me or against me" horse. He still had a point about how current day Ishgard was unfairly being subjected to Sins of the Fathers just because dragons are very good at holding grudges and that the lie the Dragonsong War and Ishgardian society were rooted in was all their people had, especially as long as Nidhogg was alive.

[@notapplicable4044]

I agree and i’d say that the “new” (been out for a while but anyway) She-Ra actually does this quite well. During the show most of the main villains actually join the forces with the main characters for various reasons. Only one that really doesn’t is the ultimate villain, Horde Prime. He wants to destroy the galaxy to bring peace to it because he is tired of all of the wars and conflicts and those are kinda hard to have if everyone is dead. There is no talking about him out of it. However many of the other villains do leave the horde. For some it’s about helping out a friend (Scorpia and Catra) and for some it’s for an entirely selfish reason (Shadowweaver). I personally really like the way the show handled its villains since each time a villain leaves it feels like there’s an in character reason for them to do that. I also really love the way they use color in this regard but that’s a comment essay for a whole other day lol.

[@ChillstoneBlakeBlast]

Why can't people understand that Simplicity does not always mean bad?.

[@korinoriz]

It's funny cause I see people complain about video game characters always being overly complex and grandeous or something, but when they get simple characters they complain about those too.

[@chadderbug7587]

One example: Megatron. Peace through Tyranny is his motto (some times)

[@Spearra]

@@oriandthesleepytime Some of this also applies to swords as opposed to say, spears being shown relentlessly in fiction. Its easier to shove a sword on screen and say someone is high and mighty because it symbolizes it to begin with. As opposed to the spear which is all fundamentals. Remove all the grandiose symbols of the "higher class/elites", full plate armor, swords, etc. and we're left with hilariously unskilled characters who superficially look like they should know what they're doing but really don't in practice. I'm probably reaching, but it is something I've observed over the years. Its always the most grandiose of displays. Probably to hide the fact that there was nearly nothing behind said display to begin with. A "hollow giant" so to speak.

[@s3studios597]

@NILAY SHARMA Classic Disney villains, Frieza, so many others.

[@fakename1474]

@NILAY SHARMA bruh so not true

[@mamodokod]

I hate how no villains can be villains now. Everyone has to be redeemed or likeable, or that villains cant do bad things because then the VILLAIN cant do actual bad things.

[@ricardooliveira562]

"I destroy a entire planet without mercy but I love puppys so I deserve to be redeem". Every villans nowdays.

[@TheAutistWhisperer]

I heard Infinity Train had a good villain in season 3, had chances to redeem himself but threw it all away.

[@EtamirTheDemiDeer]

“He’s an asshole” “But _why_ is he an asshole?”

[@rogeliorufin3528]

I think I somewhat agree, some villains are redeemed just because which irritates me, whilst we get villains like thanos who cannot be redeemed but we can see why he does the things he does, it builds his character. Or hell.....even malificent..I guess.

[@rodrigomorales563]

Exactly why I hate how the internet portrays bowser these days.

[@zhwanzie8327]

"Not every villain needs to be humanized." Holy shit, someone who gets me. Sometimes I just like an overly evil villain for the sake of it, especially now a days when every writer is trying to have Shakespeare level writing in making you like their "morally complex" villains and half the time it ends up falling flat.

[@gayanudugampola8973]

Kira Yoshikage and Torru: Look human but are monsters. None of them suffer a tragedy to even justify their actions

[@razkable]

If you try to hard to have a complex villain we feel bad for and want to see change it can backfire if done poor cause don't create a murderer then give him 1 moment of helping in our heroes time of need and expect us to forgive so easily all the crimes they did or problem they caused with no build up...we get it they have a broken past but that does not excuse them from jail time

[@OneNormalHuman]

Jujutsu kaisen has sukuna who is just simply evil

[@Fleur-x6f]

Like Evolt and Chronicle?

[@chibirisa2075]

The ""sympathetic villain"" Cruella de Vil is really not helped by the fact we have a live-action sequel from two decades ago where she receives rehabilitation only for that to be a farce she made to get out of prison showing that she's was nowhere close to having an ounce of 'good' in her body(hell that's not even counting the PC video game adaptation where she tried to turn said puppies into goo statues to sell WHILE THEY WERE STILL ALIVE MIND YOU(yes that is the plot.)).

[@GrandCorsair]

I don't know what they were thinking. If if you try to argue against the live action movies, cartoons and dvd sequel there isn't any doubt she is unredeemable. Like she literally suggested to "bash then in the head" in the original and tried to run someone off the road for frickin puppies.

[@chibirisa2075]

@@GrandCorsair Yeah the creators go out of their way to show just how psychotic she can be just for the sake of fashion. There really isn't much legroom to work with that much less prove to us how she was "just a misunderstood woman."

[@akaiyoru2681]

Now that Disney is about to release Cruella, they will absolutely try to make her into a quirky villain, darker version of Harley Quinn from Birds of Prey. Like the most riddiculous thing they can do to her, since she was created solely as a villain who doesn't care about what animal she skins for her fur coat. The real Cruella only cares about fashion to the point where she will kill endangered species or the hundred (and one) puppies. What deeper motivation can you give to that kind of character? Sometimes simple is best kept simple

[@thevioletskull8158]

@@akaiyoru2681 Let me try to give here a deeper story: Um,she grew up in a farm were she was manipulated into thinking it was ok to do “stuff” to animals for fashion? Idk I tried

[@Zodia195]

When I heard they were doing another live action Cruella Movie, my first thought was "Uhhhhh you forget Glenn Close's Cruella?" To me that was the only good live action adaptation, even with the dated graphics. I actually thought it was just as good as the original movie because there Cruella actually paid for her crimes and they made Roger and Anita smarter.

[@hermitpriest9820]

Somewhat surprised you didn't bring up Last Airbender poking at the trying to humanize villain stuff in it's finale, where while the gang's looking at baby picture's of the Firelord and Aang's looking for alternatives to death, with Zuko's response essentially being along the lines of "He's not the cute baby anymore, he's a monster", and following the logic of "just because they were good then or had a bad upbringing, doesn't make all the bad stuff they did later in life null." Hell I remember last year, to use a real life situation of this, people were trying to stop the execution of Lisa Montgomery for committing horrific crimes cause she had a bad upbringing and childhood, sure what happens when you're young does have an affect on you, but that doesn't justify doing horrible things as an adult.

[@lpfan4491]

It is all a matter of severity. Some pretty bad people can be made to turn around. But it is true that the concept does not apply to people facing execution, because that means they went quite a bit too far. Avatar is actually a pretty great example of it, because while Ozai is allowed to stay alive because Aang is against killing, he is never walking out of that cell. Because someone like him just does not exactly deserve a second shot at life. It is actually pretty messed up that people there argued for mercy like that.

[@mr.stuffdoer8483]

I mean if therapy was free and mental health was more easily managed I’d agree with you, as that means they can be helped, but that’s not the case. I’d love for it to be, we could all use help, but the fact of the matter is that people who were traumatized enough to go down a messed up path won’t end up getting the help they need.

[@genesisspace5331]

@@mr.stuffdoer8483 even if it was free narcissist sociopath psychopath have no reason to go to therapy because there would nothing they can gain from it

[@RezRaker]

A compelling villain from the past decade that I immediately think of is Handsome Jack from Borderlands 2. Someone who's spite and ego deludes himself into viewing his monstrous actions as that of a hero cleansing Pandora of scum and savagery aka bandits. As the player you wear down Jack's charismatic facade through your endeavours to the point he labels you as a child killer and calls off your bounty only so he can have the satisfaction of killing you himself. I loved that despite often cracking jokes and taunting the player he backed up his role as the antagonist by demonstrating numerous times he is a major threat. He wasn't a joke villain who gets defeated anti-climatically.

[@frankwest5388]

I love jack. When you hear him talk in BL2 you can just imagine him sitting on an office chair casually telling you to die, with the same tone as if he asked his secretary to bring him a coffee. And he is also great in the Tales game. You know that he is always up to something, but he is so useful and open about it, that you do accept his help willingly. He promises you the universe and proves that he can give it to you. But you always feel like you are entering a Faustian power bargain or falling down to hell with him. Love him.

[@stirredwhiskey]

I really loved his expanded portrayal in Tales from the Borderlands where you see Jack's backup ai before he went off the deep end and ruined his daughter. It was so fascinating when he realized what he did was shitty but is still willing to go through it again because he believes it's the optimal solution.

[@itsblitz4437]

@@stirredwhiskey I totally agree. In fact it was in that game he said "everyone is the hero of their own story".

[@LordTyph]

Thing is, the guy is majorly deluded, to the point where you can't just justify it with 'oh, he got betrayed before'. The 'Child Killer' thing? THat was because you mercy killed her daughter who was actively tryign to work against Jack and was strapped to a device he was using that was ACTIVELY MAKING HER SUFFER. And she flat out said that she wanted to die and that's why she brought the Vault Hunters there. Not only that, it's implied that he actually killed other people's children too, making him far more guilty of that sin (a echo log has him casually remark 'not anymore' when one of his employees diffuse his point about having a daughter and that strengthening his argument by mentioning he has one too). The sad truth is that Jack is incredibly unstable and dangerous. Whether or not he started out as a hero is immaterial at this point because he's become a monster. He's not a bandit though. The bandits are honest with themselves.

[@frankwest5388]

Lord Typh he is a monster. No doubt about it. But I wonder when he reached the point of no return. Was it after abuse by his grandparents? The decades of bullying by his boss? The time where his daughter killed his wife? The first time he murdered someone? Was it the rush of constantly winning against Dahl? The betrayal by the Vaulters? When the vault showed him power? When the Symbol was burned into his face? Or maybe he was always this insane and just waited for an excuse? It doesn’t matter. Because in the Borderlands the only good guys are being buried first. Love the games

[@ShiroZerotheDragoon]

i don't mind a villain having a sympathetic backstory, what i personally have a problem with is when the story tries to cram that backstory down our throat moments before the character/villain is permanently killed off/ during their final fight, making the whole thing feel pointless. demon slayer does this constantly and it gets old real fast.

[@misery_shun]

Yeah, it kind of lowered the stacked tbh. Though I liked that they established Douma as a psychopath, such a breather really (also Enmu I suppose, but idk)

[@bepisthescienceman4202]

I only give sympathetic back stories to villains who would work with a sympathetic back stories like a villain who's a communist farmer warlord doesn't need a sympathetic backstory but a business man dictator would work with a sympathetic backstory

[@bluewolf6323]

I'm on a half and half about Demon Slayer backstories for the demons. One one hand, yes it does get a little tired when,the demon's backstory is told. However, the way I think about this is that they give the demons a kind of life flash before their eyes moment and how much regret they had, knowing they can't go back on the choices they made. It's almost like a ferryman giving you moments to think about life before you permanently go to the otherside. That's my way of thinking it and it got me through the show, well along with the story, characters, and art, a lot better. That's my opinion and if you guys have a different, hey, that's cool.

[@christophershafer1857]

@@bluewolf6323 I think it became predictable, and it really depends on how jaded you are. Demon Slayer can also seem a little preach-y, with a protagonist in the "I'm so good and pure I might as well be Jesus," school of protagonist. Just short of being a Gary Stu. Not that you can't go to far the other way, mind you.

[@Vexin980]

@@christophershafer1857 I can't agree with that. Tanjiro isn't perfect and he's not pure, he just sees demons as just as much victims of Muzan as he and his sister were. And they are. That's the point, that there aren't many truly 100% evil people in the world. That there is context behind every act. And you know what their reward for being good people before was? They get to burn in hell. That's it. They were victims, but they still hurt and killed countless people. That's not something forgivable. More than anything, Demon Slayer shows there's more than one side to every story but also shows that evil acts cannot be allowed.

[@Akalim]

My main issue with Steven Universe is they just KEPT giving us reasons to hate pink diamond. Like, we get that the other diamonds treated her poorly, but when you keep adding on and on about terrible things pink did to people it makes the character seem less and less redeamable. Shes supposed to be a good person because she was so caring to humans, and probably would've been a good mother to steven if she was alive, and she was a good friend, but because shes dead she doesnt get nearly enough screentime for us to learn to like her despite her past mistakes

[@sarafontanini7051]

its weird that while the Diamonds are redeemed and their horrible actions forgiven, Pink never is despite being far less intentionally cruel and having done far less worse than her family, and yet SHE's the one who is villified and held up as 'worst person ever' when her mother is RIGHT THERE. and people STILL argue that Pink's horrible despite everything.

[@Akalim]

@@sarafontanini7051 exactly!!!! If they were gonna do that. What they should've done is find a way to keep pink diamond alive, like maybe instead of her disappearing when she had Steven, she should've lost her gem and magic. Maybe become extremely weak over the years but still press on. Or! She couldve lived inside the gemstone so we can get more episodes where shes facing the consequences of her actions Maybe when white diamond separated Stevens gem from him she couldve appeared and finally snapped, confessing that she's messed up but so were they or something. She should've been allowed to make amends with the people shes hurt so that it doesnt seem like she was running away from all of her problems. Because she is a dead character shes ripped away of any chance to apologize to the ones shes harmed. Now steven has a tainted image of his mother and she can't do anything about it

[@Akalim]

@@sarafontanini7051 or better yet, give her her own show! Make a prequel to steven universe about pink diamond's journey in trying to become a better person unlike the diamonds

[@TheStarsTwilight]

@@sarafontanini7051 This really bothers me - it honestly feels like victim-blaming given we know Pink was also abused by White Diamond. Either she should have the chance to be viewed in a potentially redeemable light or the other Diamonds should also be held to a higher standard. Also, even if Pink Diamond was not the morally pristine person she was originally made out to be, she still didn't support goddamn genocide. How can this show sit here and put so much blame on her for being abusive when the other Diamonds abused her, too? It comes off as especially bad because the crew proved they knew better - Alone at Sea is an AMAZING depiction of toxic relationships. A lot of times (not always, but way more often than media likes to portray), abusive relationships go both ways. The fact Lapis was abusing Jasper by holding her to the ocean floor almost just as much as Jasper was abusing Lapis is hugely critical. Lapis, and thereby the show itself, acknowledges her actions in that relationship were not right, either. It's not just a clear cut "victim-abuser" dynamic. We also see how despite the emotional or even physical pain, these relationships are addicting and can be very hard to get out of. Both Lapis and Jasper miss each other despite how horrible their situation was. However, what ultimately makes Lapis the better person is that she knows what they had was unhealthy and refuses to ever go back to living like that, striving to become a better person from what happened, while Jasper still desperately clings to that past, going on to forcefully fuse with others in order to try to return to that emotional high. How can you thoroughly and complexly cover the subject of abuse only to later fuck up the basics so bad?

[@sarafontanini7051]

@@TheStarsTwilight yeaaahhh the way they handdle Pink Diamond is really, really bd, especially comapred to the other diamonds who recieve no punishment for their actions, meanwhile Pink is alloed to die and be villified. For DARING to wanna have a human child and not be stuck in her planet with her awful family.

[@fernandosau1498]

I'll give the RWBY writers this, at least they admit Cinder sucks as a villain, even if they have to use Watts to say it.

[@gayanudugampola8973]

Watts is best villain now. Can i get repeat of his lines from his epic roast of Cinder?

[@beatsinmyhead9919]

It's more like a cry for help to me

[@itsblitz4437]

Salem is also technically a good villain. But do you think Cinder is setting up to be redeemed?

[@itsblitz4437]

@@gayanudugampola8973 do you think Cinder is going to be redeemed?

[@fernandosau1498]

@@itsblitz4437 doubt it. She may suck as a villain, but she still committed a lot of things that cannot be forgiven, particularly murder. Unless RT has a very STRONG and BELIEVABLE reason as to why she deserves redemption.

[@jaspommoja9761]

The real villian is mangakamen for making his artist have to change his design every month

[@dariogaelreyes7534]

Isn't he his own artist?

[@jaspommoja9761]

@@dariogaelreyes7534 exactly

[@dariogaelreyes7534]

@@jaspommoja9761 oh no

[@jaspommoja9761]

@@dariogaelreyes7534 we're not so different you and I intensifies

[@olivierdubreuil-gagnon2201]

Wonder what the boss fight'll be like.

[@brolookatthatthingbehindyo1324]

just because you're a bad guy, that doesn't mean you're a bad guy

[@MCGamerEnergy]

Or just because your bad doesn't mean your evil.

[@gayanudugampola8973]

Example- Funny Valentine and Wahmmu from Steel Ball Run and Battle Tendency respectively.

[@itsblitz4437]

Wreck-It Ralph reference

[@creed8712]

But sometimes it’s fun to watch a person pop like a balloon or rule an evil empire

[@brolookatthatthingbehindyo1324]

@@creed8712 that is also true

[@TheCrypticFang998]

For me I love a Villian that has 3 things. 1.A good ass personality 2.Is actually threatening 3.Ain't a big ass coward

[@gayanudugampola8973]

Dio Brando and Funny Valentine.

[@troyshin3924]

What about a villain that can grow and develop into that? They don't necessarily need to be a good villain at first. Remember Shigaraki and how people always shit on him for being a stupid villain despite growing from his mistakes?

[@debashisprasadjena5075]

What about Lucas from re 7. He was a coward but he is a great villain.

[@Fleur-x6f]

Actually Evolt from Kamen Rider Build fits the bill, Storius and Solomon though.....

[@Mars_over_seer]

Funnily enough, the Jojo anime made some of the villains more evil. cioccolata in particular, they actively show him not only killing, but outright torturing people just for sh*ts and giggles.

[@gayanudugampola8973]

And his defeat was so satisfying.

[@palamecianrider7385]

He was so bad that he got the ultimate beatdown in manga history. 7 pages dedicated to just pummeling the villain and in the anime the attack being amplified multiple times

[@lsebastian9086]

Diavolo and CIoccolata really stand out as the worst monsters. DIO, Kars, Kira had their moments that made them compelling. ANd evnen before part 5, there were rotten ones from part 3: Steely dan and Alessi as the cowards, Jgeil as a depraved monster...and the ruthless Vanilla Ice.

[@alpharius2omegaboogaloo384]

@@lsebastian9086 Diavolo doesn’t seem that evil too me, he seems way to mentally ill and define you didn’t deserve his fate. Cioccolata on the other hand…

[@sarafontanini7051]

The problem with the curent trend of complex villains is that writers seem to think a sympathetic backstory or well intentioned motives means that theyr're secretly a good person who needs to be forgiven, and so they gloss over or IGNORE all the terrible, terrible, terrible things they've done. Its okay to have SOME complexity or sympathy...but don't pretend that they didn't murder people, ruin lives and destroyed property just because you think they'll be more fun as heroes (and usually they aren't, as often their nclusion adds nothing to the story and instead makes us wonder WHY they're being forgiven) My Little Pony, Fairy Tail, Naruto and, yes, steven universe, fall into this trap, and are examples of how NOT to approach villain redemptions.

[@Zodia195]

Another reason why I think the Entertainment Industry (especially in Hollywood) doesn't connect with reality these days. It's like they've lost their common sense.

[@bouclechocolat]

It's good to give some backstory to explain villain motivations but the current trend seems to be to conflate explaining their behavior with excusing it for a redemption arc

[@keiichimorisato98]

I had fallen off Naruto during the hight of the save Sasuke from evil stuff in Shippuden. Imagine my shock seeing Orochimaru in Boruto as a good guy... like... the dude killed a bunch of people and shit... I had spend years with him as some major threat, not he is chumming around with Boruto's dad?

[@sarafontanini7051]

@@keiichimorisato98 yeah its....really, really shitty. But I guess the fact he did science experiments, took over people's bodies, murdered people and caused the Third Hokage's death don't matter since he helped with the war against the alien queen from the moon or something I dunno.

[@christophermonteith2774]

mlp? who? haven't seen any in the rest yet, so wont ask

[@misterzygarde6431]

One of my favorite villains is Rob from The Amazing World of Gumball. Spoiler warning. Originally being a minor character (Who was animated in CGI before Season 2 made him animated in 2D.). He ended up banished to the Void. After escaping and becoming disfigured, he ends up taking the role of the villain after Gumball and Darwin suggested and out of revenge for being left in the void. Initially his role as the villain is played for laughs until in the Bus where he nearly steals $1 Million bucks and in The Disaster and The Rerun he breaks up Gumball’s family in the former and in the latter nearly breaks Gumball who sends him to the void only to go in to save him. After which he reverses the damage he did in those two episodes. However part of what lead to this is due to how his time in the Void and the use of the universal remote made him learn that Elmore isn’t real and this knowledge has made him spiteful and nihilistic towards Gumball for being the show’s protagonist and feels that the only solace is to have Gumball out of the picture. Afterwards he spends Season 6 trying to save the people of Elmore from cancellation. He kidnaps Banana Barbara to paint the future and later on in the Inquisition tries to turn everyone human to get them into the real world. His lack of communication and role as the villain end up biting him in the ass as in the Future he ends up being briefly erased from existence and ends up being knocked out before getting to explain himself. He is the representation of the Meta-Fiction elements of Gumball and I love him for it.

[@Akalim]

Bruuuug i second this!

[@rodrigomorales563]

WE GETTING A MOVIE BOYS!!!!!!

[@mollytheyorkie-poo7514]

Yess i unironically love Rob so much as a villain for that show ngl

[@nicomom9534]

I also love how the reason he became the antagonist was because gumball basically said "hey, we don't have a major antagonist, why don't you be the antagonist?"

[@JimmehRulez]

Antagonists oppose the main character they aren't necessarily a viliain.

[@dariogaelreyes7534]

@Drew Baxter invader zim

[@beiwubsnsod7378]

Exaxtly. Maruki isnt evil, hes just someone with a different view that conflicts with joker. A protagonist that fits that is caim from drakengard. Caim is a bloodthristy maniac who does horrible things, but he's still trying to stop the watchers from being unleashed. He's not a hero, but the protagonist

[@BitchChill]

Yeah. People need to learn the definition of a protagonist and an antagonist

[@lastmanstanding7155]

@@beiwubsnsod7378 Yes and even then Joker is technically not fully a hero because he is forcefully changing people and does other underhanded and shady things.

[@sarafontanini7051]

yes but that distinction doesn'tmatter here as we're SPECIFICALLY taling about villains here

[@Kono_Dio-Da]

Don't think that I'm not enough of a nerd to recognize that Yakuza 0 OST at the start.

[@Avarn388]

DIO You're not the only one. Yakuza greatness!

[@DioBrando-zj7iw]

Hol up, da fuck.

[@tiger4678]

Cultured cabaret club battle OST

[@jamesaaron8578]

Carl Johnson Ah shit, he we go again

[@jamesaaron8578]

12:28 DIO may explain what is the difference between you and the diamonds

[@BurningAzure]

Seriously, Roman was the only villain in RWBY who remained entertaining. Too bad he's fucking dead.

[@itsblitz4437]

Well he could come back in some other way.

[@hiddenflare6169]

Better to die a villain then live to see yourself become a... Uhh... Well I am sure you get the idea.

[@BurningAzure]

@@hiddenflare6169 Than to have your character completely fucked over by becoming a chronic failure with a half assed transparent attempt to garner audience sympathy?

[@RoronoaZoro-ur6hr]

@@BurningAzure , name one villain with a redemption arc that isn’t done through plot armor or Deus Ex Machinas besides the villains in Persona 5 Strikers, and I’ll tell you villains that always remain pieces of shit, but yet the series is still great to read, watch, or play for example Mihawk is the best villain in One Piece because he gets pleasure out of genociding the Marines after the Seven Warlord System was abolished; Darkseid in the Justice League comics is literally an Alien God that’s the most powerful God in the DC Multiverse, and Loki from Bayonetta 2 just to name a few villains that are evil for the hell of it that are still loved to this day, and I could list many many examples, but I’d be here for months on end.

[@leighbelk769]

Actually l would say Watts has still got it.

[@sornyeilevente973]

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions" is a good way to create a sympathethic villian. Tries to do something good fails, tries again but with mkre questionable methods and slowly becomes an antagonist. And another thing that I like with that archetype is that depending on the villians "road to hell" they can either be reedemed or not.

[@gytech1]

Gray morality has been on a rise this past decade, and I can't blame people, because when it's down well, you can't help but love the characters because of their backgrounds. Princess Mononoke and Fire Emblem Three Houses comes to mind with those, more so the latter for me. But we tend to forget that it came be hard to pull off, since you have to be very good with your writing to make one side look good, while the other side is evil, and then reverse it for the other perspective. Hope this made sense

[@justinbowen5574]

Yes the subject of edelgard is still being debated to this day. Which is why she is my favorite lord so far.

[@arnowisp6244]

@@justinbowen5574 To be fair, she's more heinous if you oppose her but more of an ally when you side with her.

[@keithgawain3614]

3H is probably at the forefront for gray morality in recent years since its Lords are such a departure from the universally good Lords of every game prior. And even though I love those characters (Ike, Hector, Ephraim and Alm being some of my favorites), IS tried something different after the simultaneously bland, confusing and convoluted story of Fates is really cool. Edelgard is someone most people compare with ARVIS from Genealogy instead of any Lord character. While 3H isn't perfect, it's still an intriguing experience. ...Too bad some people only play this game/game series because they're h*rny, but...eh

[@mr.stuffdoer8483]

@@justinbowen5574 Well let’s see: Edelgard sides with monsters who wish to destroy human establishment in an attempt to conquer the nation before turning on them. Dimitri massacres and tortured people by the hundreds. Rhea burns a fucking city to the ground without evacuating it. Claude is just a fucking asshole. Yet I still like all but Claude. Three Houses does characters real well.

[@Tounushi]

Not just grey morality is being written, but moral relativism. I blame this cultural poison on the woke crowd, who seems to make it a religion out of rejecting objective truths, including moral guidelines. Grey morality as a trend might come to an end and re-emerge far later as people explore it for all its worth with "real life" dramas, villain protagonists, etc. But we might already be seeing stories where unambiguously evil things are done unapologetically. Not for cool factor or catharsis, but as a "valid" cultural product to be consumed.

[@StarforceOnAir]

I knew Emerald was going to have a Heel-Face Turn, given her whole "street rat" backstory, but holy shit she deserved a much better Heel-Face Turn than what she actually got.

[@itsblitz4437]

If I could ask like what exactly? I mean she joined because she doesn't want to join the side that just destroys the world.

[@CheeseLoverRed]

She never really accepted Salem. It took a while for her to realize she was blindly following Cinder. I never considered her pure evil, but she was responsible for a lot of nasty things.

[@shadowthedragonoid]

Unless things change in later episodes it looks like Emerald is given an "Orochimaru redemption", as in "Because I am helping the good guys that means that I am now a good person, no need to judge me for the countless horrific deeds which I took part in, never mind how I don't seem to regret doing those things, totally a good person now, without ever really showing remorse or trying to make up for it". I mean, FFS Emerald hasn't even told Penny nor Jaune that the fight between Pyrrha and Penny ended the way it did because of her and I have seen people already treating her as if she is redeemed just for siding against Salem.

[@The_GhostWind]

Although I love complex villains that have a complicated backstory, have interesting motivations and can been seen that they have some good in themselves even if it is in a more unorthodox way. I still prefer Evil villains that legit enjoy themselves being evil and that they don’t feel any remorse of their actions and consequences that they brought up to others, specially if they also are charismatic, entertaining and even fun to watch, it gives them layers to their characters and makes them more unique then other villains Like The original Maleficent, Scar (from the lion king 1992), Hades (Hercules), DIO, Aku, Monokuma/Junko Enoshima, Bill cipher, The Joker, Freeza, Shao Kahn, and of course your previous mention Kamoshida. Then again I also love an entertaining villain regardless if they’re pure evil or if they are complicated tragic.

[@JoeMavro1]

Another great example is Hades from kid Icarus Uprising, my #1 video game villain. He's about as evil as a villain can possibly be and yet he has such an irresistible charm, one can't help but want to see more of him.

[@MeatloafMan455]

My very simplified personal take. "I'm evil because I'm evil Villain" I don't like it if this one type is only type of villain in the story with multiple villains. I'd prefer variety in a story with multiple villains/bad guys so it doesn't feel dull, but if there is only one villain in the story that's absolutely fine. All I ask for is, make them entertaining to watch. "The Villain with the motivation to do something because something" All I ask for is, the reasoning for the motivation is plausible and not stupid. At the end of the day it really depends on how it written.

[@itsblitz4437]

Wow very well said and less convoluted too 👏 👍

[@jessicacarr4933]

Your note on rise of the shield hero.... amen! We need to cover the more taboo issues to be able to learn from them and how to deal with them more honestly and fairly for all

[@Shiirow]

the real issue with that was they didnt like that it showed that its possible for a man to be falsely accused of rape. the climate we live in is, men are predators that need to be educated to not rape women and women are just victims of men in every way, shape and form. to see a villain, a woman, take advantage of the hero, a man, was just too much for their fragile minds to take.

[@wildfire9280]

@@Shiirow gamer moment

[@AListExists]

Even with children's animation you get horrible people these days. Look at the villain of CoCo, they're legitimately a murderer and tried to kill a child multiple times.

[@TheCapitalWanderer]

isn't there an actual person who murder and ate people and he have simps?

[@wyntertheicewyvern6226]

@@TheCapitalWanderer yes. I don't know about the eating, or if we're thinking of the same person. But Ted Bundy is that guy. He was a very psychotic, sadistic mass murderer. And yet, despite all he did, many women flat out refused to believe he did it, even though he admitted to it. To these women, he looked handsome and charming. But that's exactly how he preyed on women. And nowadays, this surge of simping has arisen again. It's sickening.

[@TheCapitalWanderer]

@@wyntertheicewyvern6226 holy moly

[@TheCapitalWanderer]

jeffrey dahmer

[@memebot6490]

The main villain of most of Adventure Time is a terrifying force of death that basically has no emotions or functions other than wanting to destroy all life (being voiced by Ron Perlman helps) Also, he can mind control anybody. THAT'S a villain, that is JUST a pure villain. There's no sympathizing with it.

[@poolturtle5772]

I love FMA:Brotherhood. I love Scar’s story and his powers.

[@shinkenger2011]

I love 2003 Envy and Dante.

[@poolturtle5772]

@@shinkenger2011 I need to go back and rewatch the old FMA anime.

[@shinkenger2011]

@@poolturtle5772 Can’t have one without the other imo

[@shinkenger2011]

HE SPEAKETH

[@flareongirl3606]

I love that show!! ^^

[@ricardooliveira562]

For me what makes a good villan depends on three factores: One: Is a actual treat to the heroes and they have to put effort to beat him. Two: Having a personality more then "evil just to be evil", I like simples villans like Sledge from dino charge or Neo Cortex from the crash brandicoot saga, because they are bad but theres more to them other then " I'm a bad guy and thats it", a villan can se simple and have charm. Theree: If the villan is going to a backstory, give a villan a decent explanation of why he decide to be a bad guy and do something with that, I hate when the villans get a sad backstory that came out of nowhere just to give them fake symphathy (Looking at you Bandora).

[@EN-mh4og]

I have been writing bad guy who has sad backstory but he is so far gone that there isn't much to redeem. His wife was graped and killed with his kids. Man tried to turn people against killer but instead he was cast out, because people worship killer as God. Man meets in desert an evil entity and they fuse together. They start war against everything. So man becomes a thing he hates, tyrant, where killer in his guilt sacrifice himself to imprison him. Killer dies, man is trapped in eternal darkness and tries to escape. Few thousand years later our story starts

[@dudejoe24]

Wait you talking about bandora from stran2603 clymer st. Dallas zyuranger?

[@ricardooliveira562]

@@dudejoe24 From Zyuranger.

[@wakkaseta8351]

@@EN-mh4og *"His wife was graped and killed with his kids."* ---------------------------------------- Man, don't you just hate it when your loved ones get turned into grapes?

[@darokdeed]

Hero:"Why are you so evil, did you had a tragic past, a goal beyond our understanding, a message and philosophy that compels you to do all this atrocities?!" Villain:"It's fun."

[@New3DSLuigi364]

Bystander: BORING! THAT'S ALL YOU DO IT FOR? TALK ABOUT DISAPPOINTING; I DON'T EVEN CARE IF YOU KILL ME FOR INSULTING YOU; I'M NOT EVEN SCARED OF THE THOUGHT OF BEING KILLED BY A FLAT, BORING, 1-DIMENSIONAL VILLAIN LIKE YOU! YOU HAVE NO HOOK, NOTHING TO APPEAL SOMEONE WHO EXPECTS MORE DEPTH FROM THEIR VILLAINS; THAT AREN'T JUST EVIL FOR EVIL'S SAKE; OR A DEMENTED P.O.S "BECAUSE POTATOES"

[@Just_Some_Guy_with_a_Mustache]

I do like me a villain who just looooooves what they do. Even to a creepy degree. *looks over at magician with Bungee Gum in the corner going SCHWIIIIIIIING in the background*

[@gayanudugampola8973]

Hunter x Hunter?

[@pesciisthebestcharacter5100]

What properties does this 'bungee gum' have?

[@cryguy0000]

I'd like an Adachi video, he's one of my favorite game villains.

[@kidnameless]

Adachi gang

[@kamira4417]

agree

[@arjuna6224]

Shibusawa from yakuza 0 is one of my favourite villains

[@ThatOneLeek]

Villain: *Does something bad like they're s'posed to.* People: that's not right. That is not right. What the hell. 👁️👄👁️

[@mettelindegardnielsen9411]

I actually prefer that every villian is humanized even through it isn't necessary. But this humanization doesn't need to have the effect of me being sympathetic towards the person since they can be humanized without being justified for their actions and the like.

[@BurningAzure]

I think both are viable so long as it isn't forced. For example, Edelgard is a good villain, while Cinder is a terrible one.

[@gayanudugampola8973]

That works for people like Yoshikage Kira. Though i don't can't the same for villains like Salem from Rwby. Idk why.

[@Rand0mPeon]

@@gayanudugampola8973 Might have something with the hacks that write RWBY's plot since Monty's death. They're too busy painting Ozpin as evil and develop his 'redemption' even though he did nothing that wasn't justified. But Emerald? After she killed Penny, killed countless citizen of Vale, was partly responsible for Pyrrha's death, and caused the fall of Beacon? *Insert team RWBY and JNR's retarded giggling*

[@gayanudugampola8973]

@@Rand0mPeon huh. Since she joined the good guys those actions have no consequences now do they? Wait let me re- write. The crimes Emerald has committed in the past have no consequences now due to her joining "Rwby and friends". I betting Cinder gets sent to hell. While Salem goes to heaven. Both had tragic origins but one committed far more evil. But the person who did more evil is sent to heaven and the other person hell. Maybe i'm wrong but it feels like what's going to happen. Or even more wacky Cinder ends up joining "Rwby and friends" when they save her from her Grimm infection. And she gets punished while Emerald just whistles in the background.

[@itsblitz4437]

@@Rand0mPeon is it wrong to redeem Emerald?

[@andrewrogers3067]

I think that making a good villain doesn't just mean make them complex, simply put, a charismatic, fun yet still highly threatening villain alone is enough to warrant a decent villain

[@ImpGoddess]

I'm completely guilty of adoring the trope of villain to hero or villain to at least antihero. I personally just like it when a story has happy endings and it's all stupidly nice and good because the world just sucks and right now especially I just don't care for potentially bittersweet endings. I like when there is happiness and forgiveness and goodness and all that. Having said that, I hate when this is shoehorned in and doesn't make sense. I also completely appreciate a villain who's just bad to be bad. I like the trope I mentioned earlier but that doesn't mean I think that every single villain should have that trope. If anything I hope less villains have it because I do notice that it's a really common trend and as much as I do enjoy it I know that I will eventually start missing the bad to be bad type villains when I do go back to watching that sort of stuff. Basically this long and probably unnecessary comment is just me saying I like the trope but I agree with Kamen XD

[@muhammadfaizmohdnasiruddin9854]

It's all in the execution. I have seen people who dislike a certain genre/trope in a movie/show/cartoon but have certain exceptions because of how they were handled.

[@zadenhomunculus8652]

Have you seen AMAZO from the 90's/00's Justice League cartoon? AMAZO is a ridiculously powerful villain that the heroes struggle with and only continues to get stronger and stronger. Instead of the classic villain to hero trope, he just flat-out quits. It is revealed to him that the motivations he had to oppose the heroes were based on a lie told to him, so he just drops everything and literally leaves the planet. It's a rather uncommon "I quit" moment where a villain simply gives up, because it's hard to write it without it being anticlimactic, but the revelation of the lie worked as the climax of the story. I would be interested in seeing a super powerful villain just getting bored and quitting in other stories and have it done well, because it really subverts expectations.

[@wakkaseta8351]

@@zadenhomunculus8652 He didn't leave the planet because he quit, he left because the writers didn't know what to do with him and had him leave so a power copying villain couldn't take his OP skillset during a fight, and then had to cut out the gag scene at the end of the series of him realizing it's safe for him to go back to Earth.

[@zadenhomunculus8652]

@@wakkaseta8351 I was explaining the in-universe aspect, not the behind-the-scenes reasons for writing it that way. You're phrasing it as if you're correcting me, but we are both right.

[@shikiira4185]

I think one of my favorite villains is Izaya Orihara from Durarara. He has no sad back story, he actually ended up growing up a normal, well educated background. The only thing he ever did was separate himself from other people, making him seem introverted. However, that was not really the case. He liked being alone so he could watch people from a distance and observe people's behavioral patterns. He was fascinated with how people would cope with different situations, how their actions influenced them as people. It was just a hobby at first, but then it became an obsession to where he wanted to see how far people would push themselves to get what they want. It's when he started putting false hope in people, like convincing someone go forward with suicide via a persona that pretended to want it too and that they'd die together, setting up people to fight, pitting friend against friend, orchestrating horrible events such as gang wars, ect, that he became a bad person. He did it all for his own amusement of watching humans make logical and rational, or irrational and illogical decisions. He was fascinated by the human heart and people's morality to the point he ignored his own.

[@clarehidalgo]

"He's not so much a villain in the story but an opposing force to the protagonists" Interesting way to explain not all antagonists are villains

[@WarmLillie]

Villain comes in all shades of grey to black even white. Everyone the hero of there story and every hero need a villain. A good villain can make a good story.

[@icarue993]

You might be confusing villain and antagonist. By definition, a villain does bad things (either because of it or achieve a greater good). An antagonist can be good, like in Death Note: Light is the villain and the protagonist; L is the antagonist and the hero.

[@seant1326]

*Everyone is the hero of their story

[@thevioletskull8158]

Does every hero need a villain? I know that’s a old philosophy but is it really impossible to make a good hero without a villain?

[@icarue993]

@@thevioletskull8158 every protagonist needs an opposing force for a story to be entertaining. The main issues with Mary Sues, for example, is that there's no opposing force, just obstacles. But it doesn't need to be a "villain". A natural disaster, a race against time, some sort of disease, etc. All these make compeling "opposing forces"

[@tonylex3760]

@@icarue993 The opposing force could also be themselves: their past, mental illness, flaws etc.

[@firesparks4761]

A controversial one I will say would be the king from shield hero since he was manipulated by his daughter and he is already worrying about alot of things from the invasion, to thinking one of the Heros are bad and Violated his daughter and much more.

[@hydranoid2009]

I think the implication from the king was that he planned it all out with Malty since the queen later explains that he had a bias against the shield hero as the previous shield hero killed a friend of his when they were attacking the demi humans

[@ShiroZerotheDragoon]

@@hydranoid2009 no the king truly was in the dark, he truly believed malty over the shield hero. also the second part of your comment about the king's backstory is wrong/ another character's backstory, i think you might be thinking of the noble that had raph as a slave before Naofumi.

[@hydranoid2009]

@@ShiroZerotheDragoon You sure? It's been awhile but I directly remember the queen stating that the king was the one in that backstory, having been a soldier before he became a king or something like that. It for sure wasn't the noble that abused Raphtalia, that guy didn't get any backstory whatsoever.

[@ShiroZerotheDragoon]

@@hydranoid2009 on retrospect i think we were both wrong (i looked it up). yes noble didn't have a backstory apart from a few throwaway lines, but the reason why the king hates the demi-humans was because they killed most of his family which lead the king to become a soldier, then during the war, a group of white tiger demi-humans( the race has a proper name that i forgot) went and killed his remaining family. there was no mention of the previous shield hero in the king's backstory

[@sarafontanini7051]

he at least gets punishment and even after he mellows out he accepts his punishment and accepts that he fucked up

[@randomplaceinruralamerica9618]

“You’re a maniac, a bandit and I am THE GODDAMN HERO” -Handsome Jack I think Handsome Jack is one of the best video game villains. He’s complex but never has redemption, he has motives for doing what he does and his voice actor nailed it. He really carried the game for me. You can hear him devolve as the game goes on and events take place.

[@Volthoom]

And, surprisingly, both the pre-sequel that handles his backstory and the tell-tale game that has his post-death appearance handle him, IMO, rather well.

[@W0lfscythe]

Adam is kind of a "tragic" villain that was too little too late to have you feel bad for him. But it fell flat for me because he went from a guy with some good intentions to a violent, unstable controlling ex-boyfriend who wore Blakes ribbon. I was glad he died so I don't see more of him.

[@W0lfscythe]

@Phantom 1984 This is a problem RWBY has with most of their characters. You have interesting character, but take them in the opposite direction. Hazel: Grieving older brother who for some reason thought blaming Ozpin, and siding with the woman who controls the monsters that killed your sister was a good idea. Ironwood: From how he's looking in Vol 7. He wasn't the most mentally stable, and near the end of vol 7, he's at his wits end after Salem showed up. After a RT stream telling what his semblance is. It hurt his potential as an antagonist. I'd rather have him as an antagonist who is motivated by fear and desperation than his semblance in the drivers seat.

[@lightdragoon88]

@Phantom 1984 I ask you watch this video as what V8 Ironwood was forshadow since V2 and how his character was used correctly. kzbin.info/www/bejne/iZ-um2hvq8R3mac As for Adam: All we had was the Blake prologue until his big moments in V3. By that point people had all these fanfic and headcanons of what he would be like and then threw hissy fits when the actual canon wasn't what they had in their heads for years.

[@Saltedroastedcaramel]

@@lightdragoon88 Adam was said to be Blake's literal mentor by Blake's own words in vol 2 not boyfriend until in vol 3 and even then that was through a tweet.

[@lightdragoon88]

@@Saltedroastedcaramel That literally does not change anything I said.

[@Saltedroastedcaramel]

@@lightdragoon88 I don't see how it doesn't. Adam's character was derailed before even he had a chance. He was meant to be a gray area character until the writers got chicken shit scared of handling racism, turn him into a crazy ex boyfriend, and then give an enslavement backstory to another shit character. A

[@SigmaSyndicate]

Someone needs to tell RWBY's writers that terrifying, godlike villains that are trying to end the world or destroy all life SHOULD NOT have coherent, sympathetic motivations for doing so. These two elements work against each other. The former makes the latter make no sense, and the latter takes away the genuine threat and terror of the unknown from the former.

[@stuckerfan2563]

True

[@gayanudugampola8973]

Can explain that with more detail? I don't mean to offend.

[@lpfan4491]

It really depends on the execution of it. Good villains can actually be very close to bad ones conceptually.

[@brianriff8550]

Marvel cosmic villains would like a word with you, but I think I still get your point XD

[@oneofnone7947]

Surprised Salim wasn't apart of you're talk but I do agree cinders backstory was hevy handed bs and don't get me started on the diamonds I still have people defending them yes they are younger but if anything that's scary because of what there willing to ignore and forgive

[@gayanudugampola8973]

Can Salem from Rwby be considered a good villain? Her backstory is sad but eh. Imo she's better than Cinder.

[@oneofnone7947]

@@gayanudugampola8973 she was built up more then cinder then all the worlds issues came from a couple not knowing how to just talk things out

[@itsblitz4437]

Well Salem is technically the better villain than Cinder.

[@gayanudugampola8973]

@@itsblitz4437 yeah Salem is treathing. Cinder isn't. Watts even roasted her for being shit.

[@oneofnone7947]

@@gayanudugampola8973 why do I suspect she's gonna be getting a redemption

[@mockersjayparker813]

Im a Steven Universe fan and dear god I hated SU Futures ending and with how they handled White Diamond. Cartoon Network did have some interference with SU later in its run. But I donthink Rebecca Sugar wanted fo do more with Whits Diamond but wasnt allowed.

[@jaimeantonioolaguezchirino5805]

The thing is that rebbecca doesn't know what to do with the villains she kept adding, every single opposing gem that had an overarchin pressence in the series winds up in the "Steven's friends box", 5 seasons and a movie to make a compelling villain but she simply continued with the same "antagonize, defeat, befriend" cicle and somehow worsening Rose quartz reputation every single time.

[@lpfan4491]

Goddang, Steven Universe. I still don't get what happened there. I don't even mean future, but rather the ending of the original story. I can conceptually understand why blue diamond would team up with the good side, because she is clearly meant to be depressed during the plot and unstable mental states can make people think irrationally. It would logically not be a redemption, but it could work as a cooperation of selfbenefits for both sides. Then she talks with Yellow diamond and that one just kinda joins too because she does not wanna do the genocide anymore...and then after a stereotypical final boss-fight like it was a videogame instead of an animated story, white diamond just gives up too, because bananas. *sanctuary guardian starts playing* What???

[@tectonic4555]

One of my favorite villains i've seen recently is Simon from Infinity Train and i think is a good example of having a "tragic" backstory and also showing that they can still be irredimable monsters.

[@New3DSLuigi364]

Honestly. . . He was basically the "Anti-Steven" I wanted to see in Steven Universe; a True Villain that Steven COULDN'T Save/Redeem/Talk-No-Jutsu; because he was EVERYTHING that Steven wasn't; Steven may have shattered Jasper; but he ONLY Shattered that Gem, and he was STILL able to Restore her back to being Whole; SIMON HAS MURDERED COUNTLESS DENIZENS; WITHOUT ANY REMORSE; INCLUDING THE MOST GUT-PUNCHING MURDER YET; SENDING TUBA PLUMMETING TO GET GRINDED ON THE WHEELS OF THE TRAIN; AND GLOATING ABOUT IT TO THE CHILD THE GORILLA WAS THE GUARDIAN OF!!

[@anggakarapreviandana2877]

I think the problem in general (Not just the villains) is the writing. People are too busy on other stuff like representation, setting, and anything but making great writing quality when they create entertainment media like film. Hence why most entertainment media nowadays (Especially the western ones) are kinda bad when it comes to the storytelling in my opinion.

[@muhammadfaizmohdnasiruddin9854]

Agreed.

[@Zodia195]

It's like they forgot the framework and went straight for the interior. Yeah I can believe that for sure. It's why my opinion of the Entertainment Industry in the West is very low.

[@juanstrong3695]

@Anggakara Previandana, and @Zodia, A lot of movies suck now, but western animation is actually doing very well. You get interesting stories and villains with clear motivations. Look at Infinity Train or Kipo and the Age of Wonderbeasts and how they handle their villains. You guys need to expand your horizon, before you complain that everything sucks nowadays. But then again, it's easy to say everything sucks nowadays then watching anything good, I supposed.

[@juanstrong3695]

A good example of a recent compelling villain, is Scarlamagne from Kipo and the Age of Wonderbeasts. He's menacing, he has strong motives for doing what he's doing, and while he has a tragic backstory, it's used to build his relationship with Kipo and further develop his ambitions. But he's also held accountable for his actions.

[@MattAnd]

I think one of the biggest problems with villains, especially when it comes to backstories, is when people mix up making them sympathetic and understandable - usually I’ve seen bad examples be when a villain is pushed to be really sympathetic, but you don’t understand why they’ve become a villain. With Cinder, for example, knowing her backstory doesn’t actually help us know why she’s sided with Salem - if anything it just makes you question why someone who loathed serving someone else has chosen to serve someone

[@floricel_112]

11:20 THANK! YOU! OH MY GOD! Seriously, those lyrics were WAY too on the nose. And while we're at the subject of Cinder's backstory, just because I now know how awful her life was doesn't mean I have to "like" her or "sympathise" with her now. Heck, I only hate her MORE after it: she was on her way to become a huntress alongside her master and get a new life away from her adoptive family, and she threw it all away for a single moment of personal satisfaction. She killed her own master, for crying out loud, and she barely shed so much as a tear. She barely, BARELY, cared about the only person in her life who showed her compassion. If anything, her backstory showed me how much of a socyopath she truly is and how everything bad that's happened to her is because of her impulsive nature

[@gayanudugampola8973]

I feel like her type of villains are better executed by villains like Dio Brando from Phantom Blood.

[@GrandCorsair]

Don't get me started on Steven Universe because I'll just get a headache all over again thinking about a certain character.

[@enterusername6953]

I was so disappointed with Steven Universe. Most of the characters ended so flat especially the Diamonds! The characters that were good were Peridot and Jasper. Peridot was the only good redeemed character and Jasper being a consistent villain throughout the series.

[@coolestdoodever753]

Words can't convey how pissed I am at how the writers handled The Diamonds (minus Pink). They are literally Nazi's, but they get redeemed?? AND DON'T EVEN GET ME STARTED ON SUF FINALE.

[@thepackingpacjack7767]

MangaKamen definitely deserve more subscribers than Cosmonaut.... this is coming from a subscriber of Cosmonaut!

[@Avarn388]

I'm glad you are tackling this because much as I love Critical Drinker's Villains video, I do agree it is limited in scope. For example, one of my favorite villains in media is Shigaraki Tomura. Namely,(SPOILERS FROM THE MANGA) seeing him grow from a terrible, ineffective villain into someone truly terrifying and capable is a joy to see. Especially with the upcoming My Villain Academia arc(END FROM THE MANGA). And Shigaraki really is Kylo Ren done well where you have a hero's journey inverted for the villains. And I find Drinker's video undersells that element.

[@NecromanticWater]

When you mentioned the shield hero villian and how people fliped the hell out my immediate thought was when people flipped the hell out of characters in Hazbin Hotel for being bad despite the fact they are in HELL and bad people is kinda the point

[@oneofnone7947]

Yes zed was my favorite power rangers villain

[@Shiirow]

I agree, the trend of humanizing villains to the extent of trying to absolve them all wrong doing is horrible. You can sympathize with them but you cant absolve them of the crimes they commit. A good sympathetic villain is one where you can understand their point of view while not forgiving them for their actions. I view those as some of the better villain portrayals but I can also see the unforgivable monster villain can be fun to watch as they wallow in their villainy like a pig in mud. Id like a more balanced portrayal of villains/antagonists. Having a variety of antagonists will go to making things better in the long run.

[@novicecreed]

Great video, I completely agree and honestly it's kinda sad how villains just arent like they used to be. It's fine to sympathies with some (when done correctly), but it really doesn't mean they need to be forgiven or redeemed. :/ Hell wtf this is the first I hear about Cruella, are they srsly going to give her the Maleficent treatment?? Out of all the villains they think she's the one who needs that??? Also holy shit yes please make an Adachi video!

[@miguelescobedo5112]

I think the real villain in YIIK A Post-Modern RPG and spoilers it was Alex all the time talk about a worse villain/main protagonist to this day.

[@franciscoarzapalozapata4610]

Tomodachi from 20th century boys is the best villain for me, do yourself a favor and read that manga

[@Envy_May]

@@franciscoarzapalozapata4610 for a moment i was like,, "the manga of yiik ?????"

[@justinambru8529]

Ah now I see your point.

[@jamtyx4170]

I see your point as well

[@shonklebonkle324]

"I am not pleasant, i am not nice, i am NOT wonderfull!" - Lord Skeletor

[@enterusername6953]

One of the best villains that came out in animation recently is Simon from Infinity Train. He's basically the opposite of a Steven Universe villain. Simon went from be a fun likable guy to being the most vile characters in cartoons as the season went on. You can empathize and understand him but at the same time hate his guts with the actions he commits throughout the season. His unwillingness to change and improve himself especially when he's on the Infinity Train led to his downfall. Simon is a fantastic villain.

[@hydranoid2009]

Interesting analysis. I'm actually writing a book currently from the POV of a bunch of humanized villains on the run from a gritty antihero, so the concepts here are certainly helpful to think about

[@Webshooters1]

Actually Lord Zedd got alot done after marrying Rita. He captured Ninjor and the Falconzord, destroyed the Command Center and the Ninja powers, even blew up King Mondo, Machina, and Sprocket. Even the one time Tommy fought Zedd he proved he was still a force to be rekoned with. Kicking Tommy's ass all over the place and had he not broke his staff likely would've won too. Plus there was that scene of Zedd in the Command Center and it was downright bone-chilling.

[@lsebastian9086]

As a team Zedd and Rita became much tougher than solo..only the machine empire arriving stopped them from making a complete victory. So their case really is the one off "beware the silly ones"

[@chadderbug7587]

I just love a villain that has some connection to a main character, and they're not just some Rando for the sake of story.

[@oscarlundberg7462]

6:49 "Joel is not a beloved character!" Now that's the sound of someone who's been hit too much or not enough as a kid.

[@kidnameless]

I too believe in Adachi supremacy, also yes please make a video about Adachi that would be so awesome

[@nightynightlayla374]

Adachi is one of my favorite villains, so I would love to see a video about him, MangaKamen.

[@007MrYang]

I'm fine with any kind of villain as long as they never unironically call themselves villains (aside from comedies or My Hero Academia).

[@drcoolcabbage]

I think one of the biggest problems with modern villains is that there's this idea that if a villain isn't a complex bundle of emotional scars and tragic backstory that's just begging for humanization and sympathy from the audience, they're a badly-written two-dimensional character. That "evil for the sake of evil" is somehow boring. Don't get me wrong, it can be, but so can any trope. Take a look at Syndrome from the Incredibles, one of my all-time favorite villains. His motivation is both straightforward, unforgivably evil. He wanted to be a superhero, was denied his chance, and so decided to end the very concept of supers entirely... quite literally. He's motivated by revenge, and envy. "When everyone's super, no one will be." Here's a guy who has it all. He's got billions in the banks, has his own private island paradise, his own private army, is a technological genius, respected and feared by governments all around the world... And it's not enough. He is stuck in the past. And that's what makes him work so well. He's a dark reflection of Mr Incredible himself. Two characters, both stuck in the past, and how they react to that. Mr. Incredible is able to overcome his past and move on, and thus, gets his happy ending. Syndrome? No, he can't move on, and that ultimately proves to be his gruesome undoing. Irredeemably evil villains can be excellently written characters. It all just comes down to, you know, the writing.

[@adedayoadetunji9760]

From the words of a wise man , “We are all villains in someone else story”

[@diersteinjulien6773]

And we are all the hero of our own story.

[@ryanm.8720]

@@diersteinjulien6773 "...Not in this one." - Mitchell, Hunt Down the Freeman

[@ThunderJimmy]

Ugh, genocide is not forgivable, and sans has every right to punish both chara and by extension us the player for it was OUR choice that brought about his own CHOICE to stop us from completing the genocide route.

[@Sharkakaka]

Good villains are villains that work! They can be PURE EVIL and still be interesting. Their motivation is simply have fun by doing bad stuff, basically a child that doesn't know what's right or wrong

[@thevioletskull8158]

Remember guys,villains aren’t necessary evil like heros aren’t necessarily good. If people want a villain who’s a piece of sh*t,that would be a evil villain,if someone wants a opposing force that you can sympathise with,that would be a sympathetic villain,ect.

[@Zodia195]

It's like people forget what the definition of a protagonist and antagonist is. Protagonist is mere the person who pushes the narrative along, it doesn't always mean he or she is a good person. The Antagonist is a person who is there to oppose the protagonist's progression and they aren't always bad. Perfect example of this I think is Death Note where Light is the protagonist, but he's technically the villain of the story, where you have L as the primary antagonist, but he's actually a good person. I remember these definitions from American Literature class in High School.

[@FGenthusiast0052]

@@Zodia195 another example is Invader Zim too. While we do follow all the very steps the protagonist takes throughout the series, their acts are real horrible. And even sometimes, their seemingly "good actions" don't come from a good place, but instead of "I should be the bigger threat, not anyone else", and becomes a temporal "hero" of such. In the end, he's a full flat out villain And on the other hand, you have Dib that fills the antagonist role of the story. That he wants always to expose Zim of his evil deeds, and also ends up stopping him most of the time. By this said, we know that he's a total hero Protagonist and antagonist are terms that people need to take in mind more, specially with writers nowadays, to avoid this confusion

[@CEWinick]

I think the Critical Drinker would enjoy your video and I had a blast to review good villains depending on the media itself. What done right we great classics like Megatron, Azien, and Homelander. But, they will always be one Abby Anderson that is a villain done horribly wrong in both story and design. Great video overall.

[@colingaul9579]

I don’t understand why people think that the evil villain doing evil things is bad. I remember I once read an article for a game that I played that called it sexist because the villain owns a brothel. This villain shows no signs of good intentions, has a voice that feels designed to be hated, kills one of the nicest characters up to that point in the game for no good reason, and is stabbed through the chest and left to rot with no hint of remorse. Why can’t the bad guy just be bad?

[@WispyEcho]

I've created a villainous character who shouldn't be humanized, mainly because he's supposed to be downright awful. He was created to not be liked and hated. He is willing to maniuplate anyone he can, and if they're following him to every word he says, he will use illusions to trick the person into thinking what they are doing is right and what Damien (my villain) is doing is also right. He doesn't take no as an answer and will try what he can to get what he wants. Again, he was created to not be liked. Even if I give him a sad backstory, he will still be a nasty character. And honestly, he was my first character that didn't turn straight to OwO Soft Boy, so I'm happy with how he went.

[@WispyEcho]

@@itsjustvin7630 I haven’t actually seen Jojo when I created Damien, but I can why people would say that ^^;

[@lpfan4491]

I honestly think there is a diffrence between humanizing someone and making someone sympathetic. Already saying something like:"he optained these abilities at a young age because he is very intelligent and because of that, he decided that being good didn't matter because he knows he can get anything" would add a connection to him being a human being that is believable.

[@palitodequeso1234]

And then there's Kirio from Mairimashita Iruma-kun, who seems to have a tragic backstory, only for the audience to realize that is not tragic at all and he's just a demon that's disgusting even for other demon's standards

[@magikforce4069]

Honestly,I get annoyed with people saying a good villain has to have redeemable qualities,has to be understandable or have to be rooted for. *NO THEY DO NOT* That destroys the purpose of being a villain. A villain is meant to be rooted against and meant to be hated.And I hate traumatized villains. At this point it’s just “my friend became friends with somebody else so now I’m gonna be a terrorist.” The thing is while a traumatic experience can be an explanation,it’s hardly ever portrayed that way,they portray as an excuse. And don’t get me started on the villains having apologists. While yeah,I do believe that some bad people do have something that caused them to act this way,it’s not always the case.Some people are actually just bad for no reason. And what does a villains trauma have to do with anything?Heroes have trauma to and they don’t use it as a reason to harm people. As a writer,I can say that there is nothing wrong with a completely unsympathetic,unmoral,unreasonable villain.

[@Thehiro10152]

one of my favorite examples to make complex villains is Gintama. They all are heroes of their own story and no villain is inherently a bad guy except Sada Sada. Fuck that guy.

[@thiefvanblu1501]

A noteworthy villain I remember growing up was Makuta teridax from the bionicle series. Always scheming and his dark monologues from the mask of light movie haunted my nightmares. Anyway, I was doing some research about it a while back and made note of how the series main writer described teridax. I don't know if this is verbatim, but he essentially said teridax was very capable of doing good, but actively chose not to.

[@chiannsmith6803]

As much as I like creating antihero antagonists and ones that do actually get redemption, I think it's important to understand that not every antagonist is *supposed* to be liked or relatable. Some are supposed to be downright evil and hateful. And then you have villains that are outright evil and become loved simply because the way they talk/act is charming. Villains are *always* supposed to be complex, whatever their motivations or their degree of relatability

[@ViroVeteruscy]

Eh... people are becoming cowards and trying to make fictional stories safe and barely creative/mentally challenging. Even when trying to make them more inclusive there are too many instances of characters being forced into unbelievable roles especially when reboots change characters that don't really need changing (or at the very least don't have good storytelling to justify the changes). So screw it, I'll cross the bridge I'm walking with my artwork and burn it behind me.

[@thevioletskull8158]

@@Mangakamen idk maybe we can ironically see it

[@juanstrong3695]

"Eh... people are becoming cowards and trying to make fictional stories safe and barely creative/mentally challenging." A lot of cartoons in Western media, as well as video games (especially with villains), disprove your point. There are tons of games and modern cartoons, that are and have dared to be different over the past decade. Just to point out a few examples; look at all the villains in Persona 5, look at Simon from Infinity Train, or Scarlamagne from Kipo and the Age of Wonderbeasts. The list goes on. There are villains and medium just as good today as there was back then. To think that something can't reach its full potential because it's from the West, is just silly.

[@blade1hunter100]

I know you had it for a bit now but I adore how your character's skull hairclip emotes with you.

[@silverscorpio24]

As long as the villains are actually a legit threat to the protagonists they don't NEED to be complex (And they can be complex while still being irredeemable)

[@stuckerfan2563]

I mean a writing advice i have remembered.Is that you don't have to make your characters likeable you do have to makw them interesting. That goes to show that a villain don't have to be sympathetic.

[@BurningAzure]

And if you do so, don't make it feel forced as hell *cough* Cinder *cough*

[@uhohcheerios5910]

It is just me or do i love ruthless villains and sympathetic ones to? Ruthless: I like them because you can just tell that they don't care anymore it's fun and great to watch. You're terrifying and extremely powerful because you know they won't hold back Sympathetic: I also like sympathetic villains because even though they did Terrible Things you can kinda understand where they're coming from

[@DonniedrakoE]

My problem with drinker is that he tried to use only a couple of companies of only movies to explain why all villains are bad now. Villains can still be hateable and unforgivable you just need to be well written in the confines of the world. His examples like Kylo ren and maxwell lord don’t always work because we can also have villains that are made to develop, adapt of be sympathetic which works well. Fiction is just so expansive at this point I don’t we could really say that all villains sucked now so much as their trends have just changed.

[@MarkFaraday]

While I love the critical drinker, that vid was kind of a miss, now he’s not totally wrong he didn’t use a whole lot of examples

[@thelocalninahopkins5666]

The forgiveness that White Diamond was given pissed me off so much. Like, I don't understand how ANYONE can tolerate/defend that kind of bullshit even slightly. On another note about villains from other media, Warrior Cats has a decent collection of them! The series even has more sympathetic villains that the fandom either loves or hates (prime example being Mapleshade) While also having heartless dictators like Brokenstar. Even with the series' flaws it's villains will usually earn a form of respect from me even if there's no inch of their existence that I like. Out of all of them, Brokenstar's origin sticks out to me the most. The books try to show that Brokenstar was a bad egg from the get-go. But looking through the whole thing you can see that his shadowy dictatorship could have been hatched from being a spoiled rotten entitled brat who was never told to sit in a corner rather than just being born evil. Brokenstar was daddy's little golden kitten and Raggedstar was his prideful entitled parent. If Brokenstar was born evil, his father's actions, choices and overall spoiling of him only furthered the spoiled brat's leadership of terror and most likely made it happen sooner than later. And that's the funny thing about the idea of Brokenstar being born evil. If his father actually tried it might have been for nothing. But in the case that he wasn't born evil, Raggedstar could have unknowingly saved ShadowClan from an awful dictator by being more of a proper father figure and leader and less of a prideful and entitled wannabe monarch. Thank each fucking God that Brokenstar didn't have kits, I'm pretty sure his spawn would have only worsen the world around them if they existed.

[@GrandCorsair]

A don't know people are willing to give characters a pass too not just White. Don't get me wrong she deserves shit but she ain't the only one.

[@thelocalninahopkins5666]

@@GrandCorsair That's true. Each Diamond pretty much had their hands on that too. I focused on White since she's the head of it all, at least for the diamond colony.

[@GrandCorsair]

@@thelocalninahopkins5666 I understand I just get frustrated sometimes. I got a lot of shit for saying I didn't like the diamonds and the biggest clap back I got was "but it was White". I understand but I just can't find get over their actions after seeing other characters struggle to over come the damage they did. It's just me I know but there is a weird disconnect for me. Sorry for the rant there...

[@thelocalninahopkins5666]

@@GrandCorsair Oh that rant is just fine! I didn't like the diamonds much either. Before the big twist happened I sort of liked Pink Diamond from what I remember. Each Diamond is their own form of unlikeable but I think White is the one on the higher end and of that spectrum. But the others aren't so far behind.

[@calciferlangary]

Zappeli: How many people have you eaten. Dio: How many loaves of bread have you eaten?

[@professorwizard8916]

this might just be me nitpicking but wasn't it Zeppeli who asked him that

[@argenta7658]

@@professorwizard8916 It was.

[@calciferlangary]

@@professorwizard8916 you are correct I am editing it now.

[@ryanm.8720]

Thirteen. I prefer Japanese food.

[@KittyKatty999]

KZbin doesn't want us realising that Google, Disney, and all companies are extremely awful villians, with no sympathetic backstories or justifications.

[@FletcherReedsRandomness]

Just like everything, villains need variety if they’re going to stay interesting. They’re at their peak if we have a mixture of sympathetic and tragic villains (i.e. Zuko, Shadow the Hedgehog in SA2, Magneto), completely monstrous villains (DIO, Frollo, Kefka), and everything in between (Darth Vader, Cyrus from Pokémon, Thanos).

[@Snow-dv7hx]

My favorite villain is Betelgeuse Romanee-Conti from Re:Zero. He is absolutely insane, and does some of the worst things to ever happen to the protagonist and his friends in the show. That being said, he is also the funniest character in the show. His mannerisms, both in speech and movements, showcase, no, *broadcast* his personality perfectly. You can watch one thirty second clip of him and you will instantly grow attached to him. I honestly wanted him to live so I could watch him do his thing for longer. He has a backstory, a very in-depth one, but he is a great character even without it. Betelgeuse is the embodiment of what I like in a villain.

[@area52ron]

When the part with villain introduction I thought the “Presentation” clip from Megamind was gonna show up

[@Rognik]

The thing is that in reality, very few people are cruel to other people for no reason. Media is starting to reflect that, and while I can respect a well-written villain, the truth is a lot of the bad guys these days are done poorly. It's easy to turn someone into a monster, but it's harder to show both sides like the villains you've praised here.

[@itsblitz4437]

Wow well said.

[@thevioletskull8158]

True

[@flarky6465]

When you put so much effort into making the Disclaimer look good, you know you have a great video ahead.

[@flarky6465]

@@Mangakamen I know, I can always see that

[@Der.Kleine.General]

3:08 But everybody has a wicked design in JJBA. 💁‍♂️