Art TikTok is Gatekeeping Drawing Apparently

[@MohammedAgbadi]

Download Opera for free using opr.as/Opera-browser-mohammedagbadi Thanks Opera for sponsoring this video!

[@vladimirkirillov1130]

No 😡

[@rainbowcat26]

No thanks!

[@ARandomEliatrope]

Spyware :(

[@rayganparksmitchell]

"Thanks Opera for sponsoring this video!" INCORRECT. MOHAMMED AGBADI SHOULD NOT THANK STUPID OPERA FOR SPONSORING HIS STUPID VIDEO. MOHAMMED AGBADI SHOULD BE OFFICALLY AND BE RIGHTFULLY ASHAMED OF HIMSELF FOR THANKING STUPID OPERA FOR SPONSORING HIS STUPID VIDEO. AND OPERA SHOULD BE OFFICALLY AND BE RIGHTFULLY ASHAMED OF THEMSELVES FOR SPONSORING HIS STUPID VIDEO.

[@slavcvlt]

No thanks I prefer my Vivaldi, Firefox n safari browser

[@svetlanaawaken]

art tik tok needs to realise: art isn’t a competition. it’s a form of expression and creativity. no one is trying to cheat. no one cares. we are drawing because we love it.

[@YoungDymisty]

THANK YOU! Exactly this! 😫 Why do people have to gate-keep everything. I do music and it’s the same in terms of using samples or instrumentals from songs made years ago, to create something new. It’s also like how on KZbin, you can’t just repost someone’s video without altering it, making it a new arrangement.

[@MyNamesHunter75]

They also need to realize if they ever desire to work in the art industry they will be expected to use references. No company is going to hire anyone because they intentionally forgo the real aspects of the world in favour of an ego that will push people away from wanting to work with them. Imagine going to hire someone you see their TikTok tok and it's just belittling the artist for using reference they aren't going to hire you because you 100% aren't being hired to be a lead artist. So you'd be expected to use what's already there for reference or conceptualizing new fresh ideas with the style and concepts they already have plus your art needs to feel real and or lived in which you can only get using reference things as "minor" as trash or ac units can make or break a scene and it's tone. Plus no one wants to work with an asshole who is going to do their own thing and waste time and money thinking they are the next Kim Jung gi while oblivious to the fact he would have used a ton of references over his life and is why he can do what he did to such a level without "using reference"

[@stadnikds]

well it kinda is competition if you are not doing it completely as a hobby without monetizing if you try to earn money by drawing, you are competing with thousands of the same as you people some people just use some tricks and "cheat" to be more efficient - creative tracing and using reference is an optimization of your process and speed if you do it correctly and some of them try to remove competition by bullying others lol

[@_Emit_]

very well put

[@meikahidenori]

​@@MyNamesHunter75 also tracing is a HUGE thing you need to learn to do correctly in certain industries. I know many Industrial designers/graphic designers need to as well as game designers, comic illustrators and animators. I know not every creative is going into professional industries but it's a better way to earn a living than to place all your bets on an art career in hope you'll make it. Going freelance and independent is VERY expensive and it's a rude awakening when you have no money & you need to find a way to have stock of your artwork for a convention or a craft market and you need to 'man up' and get used to people telling you your work is over priced and not worth the money too - because you'll hear it every day of your life. Ditto with serious criticism and critique. If you can't handle that then you are better off looking into something else. It's a harsh thing to say but someone has to. You be amazed how much of a spine you need in order to make art or any art profession your career.

[@FriendOfHatkid]

Saying "you aren't a real artist if you use references" is the same as saying "you aren't a real chef if you use recipes". My brother in christ

[@MorbidMaximus666]

You’re not a real doctor unless people have died while you were fumbling around trying to treat them because you didn’t study ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[@neff6185]

NO FR 😭

[@TyckinTymeBom]

you arent a real person if yoy went to skhool

[@FriendOfHatkid]

@@TyckinTymeBom huh? I'd got it if you said "you aren't knowledgeable if you went to school", which is not only not connected in some way to what was in that video, but at the same time is just not true. And, if you did intent for a "person", that is entirely not in some way connected or true, since a human becomes a person if he was raised by the humans, that includes both school and parents. There have been a lot of stories where a child was raised by wolfs or dogs and was acting like one. That child wouldn't be considered a person. But school isn't really got that much to do compared to how parents make a child behave. And also, you pronounced school wrong 🤓

[@nissansucc5486]

@@FriendOfHatkid what the fuck are you talking about. Nothing you said makes sense. What do you mean "a human becomes a person if he was raised by humans". That's literally not true. A person is just defined as a human being regarded as an individual. In your example, being raised by wolves would still make you a person. Also you said what the person above said "is just not true" just the same as you aren't a real artist if you use references isn't true. The person above was pushing the same argument to a logical extreme, albeit in a strange manner that's probably a false equivalence.

[@galacticgremlin]

"i dont use references!!!" we can tell, babes

[@blkkh9517]

Hhhh with your profil photo, this comment is perfect 😳😂😂

[@Prominence2.0]

lmaooo fr

[@ApprehensiveMark5502]

W courage

[@cloudshifter]

"I'm an artist, of course I can draw anything from imagination perfectly like a photograph"

[@JasperXCXeon]

Occasionally I get lazy and doodle things without references and like idk why I do that to myself cause like 90% of the time they look noticeably worse 💀

[@sachikofox7393]

Man it’s so funny seeing this old discourse pop up again. Every artists uses references whether they realize it or not! Yes even the things you see in life are references in of themselves.

[@diediedice]

I feel like this same exact discourse gets dug up from the grave every few years🥲

[@sachikofox7393]

@@diediedice God same here. TikTok manages to dig up old fandom discourse that has been either resolved or put to rest years ago and every time I see being brought again I’m like “We’ve been over this already!”

[@jonelrobinson7432]

@@sachikofox7393Right?! Like ugh!😒

[@shulungus]

every single thing on existence created by humans were made with references by other thing, either natural or from other things we've created

[@MysteryMortis]

"You're not a real artist if you don't draw without reference" Wow.... I... I need to think about this *continues drawing with references*

[@MohammedAgbadi]

lmaoooo

[@Cinnaschticks]

I'm so mad saying no references became a trend because it wasn't until I was 16 that I realized they were just referencing different things without realizing. Damn it, internet.

[@Dexter01992]

Meanwhile every single art course in the world: "USE. REFERENCES. ALWAYS!"

[@MysteryMortis]

@@Cinnaschticks I've started using references in 2019 and have enjoyed it since. My art also improved around 2021 with it

[@ThatOneMotherfucker]

With their logic, animators should memorize the character they are animating and remember to stay consistent for thousands of frames. ...i want them to tell that to animators or an animator studio. They will either laugh at you or you will be in the nearest lake.

[@ZALESANDDESTROY]

If drawing from reference makes you less of an artist, wait until they hear about still life and figure drawing with a model.

[@Dark_BunnyXx]

Next thing you know, people are gonna gatekeep the act of picking up a darn pencil, this is why I don’t bother drawing for social media

[@King-yj2jx]

I remember the good old days when people had their own website and shared their art there.

[@MohammedAgbadi]

😭😭😭😭

[@johnmivule-novabow8143]

@@King-yj2jx facts, now its too clout infested to even grow as a new artists on social media

[@daisy_fl0w3rs]

​@@johnmivule-novabow8143and starter artists cant practice without the stress of hate

[@rainbowcat26]

I draw with a pencil.

[@nomoretwitterhandles]

"I don't use references for my drawings" babygirl we can tell

[@TheOneTheyCallTim]

THIS. Every single time.

[@3_raccoons_in_a_business_suit]

My thing about tracing is like… my ART PROFESSORS encourage tracing anatomy for accuracy. It teaches you- it does not hinder you.

[@sunnydargonnel]

Yeah the other night I was talking to a friend who's in college for arts and they told me to trace real life pictures of actors or whatever I find joy in so I can get used to the proportions and how much they vary from body to body, that it IS a common practice to begin with.

[@leni4179]

The olds painters literally learned by copying their masters art

[@MyNamesHunter75]

plus tracing isn't meant to be published work it's meant to be your training arc work that you use to figure out where all the muscles are so you can better represent them in a way that feels real

[@oratank]

reference will put it to your memory but tracing most likely you won't think anything about it just tracing but may be someone memory it by tracing

[@naesala]

I'm flat out bad at gauging distance, even outside of art. Sometimes going over an image to get a rough idea of the hand proportions I failed at for the past hour and then stylizing the anatomy of the hand itself is just to save time.

[@sapphirejynx]

As someone with Aphantaisa and LITERALLY CAN NOT see mentally I NEED Refferences. Using them does NOT make you any less of an artist for using them or even having to rely on them. It makes me feel SO shitty that I have to use them because I'm mentally crippled and can not see mentally. It SUCKS but I manage regardless to draw using refferences.

[@Smulenify]

As someone with hyperphantasia, I also need references. Mainly to help me ground things into reality because it can be very overwhelming to get down the foundation when I'm distracted by all the details. It can be a bit frustrating because no matter how much I practice, the result is always a bit disappointing to me. Perhaps because I'm not good enough that my art lives up to fantasy, or perhaps because I've been "looking" at it for so long that I'm bored of it. It's probably a bit of both. I know I can never understand the frustration and struggle of having aphantasia. But I want to say that there is so much wonderful art created by people with aphantasia. The ability to conceptualise and make a piece of art from that is amazing. Using references to build an image from scratch without having that inner image takes a lot of creativity. It also seems very satisfying to finally see the end result.

[@junmesnil7821]

i also have aphantasia and was going to mention this! it's so nice hearing from other people like me. i tend to forget to use references, and then wonder why i'm not satisfied with my art, or why i'm struggling so much with a part of my drawing lol but i've been getting better at it and i'm quite satisfied with my latest piece! it has a more complex perspective though and using the perspective tools was a hassle, it was very hard to figure out how to work with those lines 😣

[@WhirlyBeepBoops]

Oh wow, I learned about something new today! Thank you for sharing; now I know that aphantasia and hyperphantasia are things that exist! That makes those people who are all haughty about not using references all the more rude, as if they don't know about people like you guys...

[@junmesnil7821]

@@WhirlyBeepBoops those people are the reason why i feel uncomfortable sharing my process online or saying i use references. i don't want to have to deal with someone criticizing me for it...

[@KitYippee]

Bro… the most famous artists from the renaissance used references… how else would they make their art so realistic?

[@R3dAlex19]

They literally used real people as reference 🧍‍♂️

[@asiabrew81]

This is the downside of drawing without any academic input. Learning about art history and how the masters themselves trained would nip this shit in the bud early for most young artists.

[@MyFictionalChaos]

​@@asiabrew81I'm gonna try to address this issue w/o generalizing, bc not everyone is like this, but I often see the Art Kid archetype of someone who doodles a lot but doesn't take education seriously. This is a huge problem. It is not the child's fault of course; education can be flawed. But in the online community this idea persists that education isn't important and that "art teachers are bad and hate creativity." So then there develops this certain type of Art Kid who refuses to learn any of the fundamentals bc of what they hear online from other kids. It is a harmful way of thinking and a tough problem to solve because there are bad art teachers, there are places with poor education as well, and then these kids don't know how to educate themselves online bc they were never taught *how* to teach themselves

[@asiabrew81]

@@MyFictionalChaos This unpacked a bit for me. Please bear w/ me cause its a deep topic: Absolutely its not the kids’s fault. This is an issue that plays out whenever kid’s are left with no structure. I have been the art kid (way back), I was self-taught before the internet art community even existed and I also guided art kids from high school & college. And from that standpoint I understand the need for a grounding element for self-taught internet Art Kids, because the internet is an overwhelming hurricane of input and stimulation. The interesting irony of the internet bringing up all these Art Kids is how its created an underdeveloped skill of taking a critique for these kids. I mean obviously the majority of internet opinions are trash so dismissing almost 90% of it outright is just necessary for your mental health, but you also develop it as a habit outright and that just does not work in a professional or academic environment where that is constant (obviously this doesn’t matter if you have no interest in going pro w/ your art). A legit education is a loaded topic thanks to our for profit system, and having gone to college for an art related major I can relate. So much of what you really need a proper school for is networking and making connections in the industry. If kids could just get an apprenticeship they wouldn’t need schools, but schools or whatever classes you can get online are the alternatives to that. The best advice I ever got from an art teacher was “You learn what the rules are so you can break them later” and odds are some of these Art Kids’ faves followed that trajectory. My concern at this point is if these kids are already Ouroboros’ing their art education by largely piggy-backing from other Art Kids.

[@impposter560]

They legit hired people to pose as reference, all through history there have been models whose sole job was being reference for artists, what is wrong with people???

[@WallySketch]

As an illustrator I can assure you that in the professional field nearly everyone uses references. For some jobs you will have to draw things that are not possible without reference. For instance I had to draw an aeronautical engineer working on an airplane reactor for a card game. Never would I even think of trying that without taking a lot of references. Even drawing a bike is hard without any reference. I feel like the people that tell you not to take references never step out of their comfort zone.

[@MyFictionalChaos]

My theory is that it is young people who have never taken any formal art education and grow up online, they see comments like "tracing is bad!" They haven't learned any art fundamentals yet and have only doodled from their imagination. So they come into the conversation about plagiarism before theyre ready to fully understand it. And then start to think references are bad, which is just, the complete opposite of how art is meant to be learned when you consider learning fundamentals like perspective, shading, anatomy, colors, lighting -- pretty much every aspect of art is learned from practicing

[@freniisammii]

@@MyFictionalChaos why did you comment this twice lol.

[@dayanapierce8467]

@@MyFictionalChaos Nah, that has nothing to do with formal art education. I've never followed art courses, (to poor for it), I have seen many contradictory comments and many times bad tips, but I learnt to only follow the artists I admired, giving advice helping me to truly improve. I have an artist friend of the same age who refuses for example to learn fundamentals online, when I do. It is just a matter of how you think, at the end of the days.

[@xadalau9758]

Yeah,I like to draw freely without reference sometimes, but It is usually stuff I'm already used to drawing. If I draw something Innever did before, my First instinto is to Go grab a reference.

[@SnowLily123]

I once had someone comment “I don’t draw from references” and then also follow up with “I don’t draw at all” 😂

[@jimjimson6208]

lmfao 💀💀💀

[@Cinnaschticks]

THAT'S HILARIOUS. That's the type of joke I'd hear from my grandpa or mom, holy shit.(do not let my mom know she's occasionally funny, I will not live it down.)

[@SnowLily123]

@@Cinnaschticks Good thing I don’t know your mom then. Or do I? 😏

[@sixty5notch796]

@@Cinnaschticksjarvis, get this guys personal info but dont post it anywhere, simply use it to inform their mother that they are occasionally funny then immideately discard it.

[@Cinnaschticks]

@@sixty5notch796 NOOOOOOO YOU CAN'T DO THIS TO ME, MAN...

[@ghastly4705]

Just to add to the whole "just learn to picture it in your head thing" while not bad advice and sometimes helpful. There are people who are neurodivergent who may not be able to focus on what there doing and form the mental image. In addition to that there are people with aphantasia who can't form mental images so it's not an option. I just felt this was necessary as though I don't think these people where being malicious these people can often be overlooked so should be considered in this conversation. Great video anyway ❤.

[@Larsen_illustrations]

Yeah i mean isn't there a disorder(?) that means you can't have much of an image in your mind. It seems ridiculous they shouldn't be able to use references

[@lionelladvelino4795]

​@@Larsen_illustrations I think you're referring to aphantasia

[@ShiftingFlurry13]

Yep. I've got aphantasia and references are a must when doing anything that requires perspective, or hasn't already been *extensively* built into muscle memory for years. But mine isn't complete, so I can still just about picture rough shapes and colors. Can't speak for those that can't see anything at all.

[@god.usopp2yearsago115]

@@Larsen_illustrationsyeah that’s me. No visualisation powers

[@ghastly4705]

@@ShiftingFlurry13 Glad to hear they help you hopefully people will chill more. I'm personally just not that good at art need to practice alot more and references definitely help with that. Take care

[@MomirsLabTech]

Im convinced that people saying "real artists dont use reference" have never created a single piece of art in their lives, and are just into gatekeeping and the art community is the space they've latched onto for that need they have.

[@Larsen_illustrations]

Honestly i don't imagine their art is any good, maybe they have really good memory but when i hear that i just imagine they're drawing the same generic stuff over and over. I mean from a professional aspect being able to copy a reference is important in a actual art career, you might have to reference a character or a art style you're mimicking, not using reference then is a recipe for mistakes

[@MyNamesHunter75]

I think it's 100% just beginners who got told "your art is so good!" and developed an ego early on. Back when I first got into drawing I didn't really use references and my art was pretty meh granted I didn't go about things with an ego of "I'm superior to you peasants using references." With how big tik tok is as well is trying to get a job in art for a future employer to see a tik tok where you say you don't use references and belittle others for using them. Congrats you lost the job because you will be a headache to work with a cost more money and trouble than it's worth as you'll refuse to do what you are asked in favour of your own ideas that are poorly done as they lack the actual details to make it feel real and believable

[@krispyiii6786]

​@@Larsen_illustrationsHeck, even the Mona Lisa was a reference to an actual person. The whole "Don't use reference or you're not a real artist" is just a way for a bad artist to feel better about their art.

[@GarmrsBarking]

@@krispyiii6786like I said elsewhere... so when you draw the croquis... you have to give the model credit ???

[@dannydanny2789]

People who say that are 3/4 cut off mid torso OC portrait factories lol

[@Dexter01992]

I did 3 art courses in my 10 years of journey. A basic manga course in summer 2014 and 2015, a digital illustration course once a week in 2016/2017, and finally a 3D artist course 2 times a week these last 2 years, finished last month. Every single teacher constantly underlined how important it is to have references aside while you draw. An entire moodboard full of things even remotely related to your idea: Anatomy, poses, how certain things look from certain angles, how certain items designs are made, that completely unrelated thing that reminds you to add that cool idea for a detail you had 4 days ago. You draw without references when it's the nth time you draw the same subject. And even then it's better to have your own older drawings of it to ensure you don't miss certain features. Rest assured: If you're an expert at drawing cats and you try to draw a horse without references, you will just end up drawing a cat with horse features.

[@Ghostfoxkori]

I thought we left this shit behind years ago 😭 I remember when people would try to cancel you for using the circle tool

[@asiabrew81]

Another year and another fresh batch of newbs for the manipulating.

[@LilChuunosuke]

I've seen people unironically bringing back the concepts of style theft & pose theft! Absolutely wild, unhinged behavior.

[@IkutoH]

THAT'S WILD WHAT

[@vanitasz]

It was so stupid

[@Seloyololo5421]

1:46 for this comment right here and anyone else wondering,i go to art lessons and the reason teachers make you draw without reference sometimes is because to enlarge your creativity and make it easier for you to draw without any reference around you,they DONT mean you should always draw without reference. Reference or not, still art.

[@johnmivule-novabow8143]

ArtTOK should gatekeep itself away from the art community. we don't need more fixing over here. ALSO DAAAAMN, looking sharp my guy 0:02

[@MohammedAgbadi]

💖love loveeeeeee

[@johnmivule-novabow8143]

@@MohammedAgbadi hell yeah my man. Stay hydrated

[@Hazeleyes_JJs]

This is why I stopped using TiKTok all together!

[@Sephelions]

The unfortunate thing with this whole "real artists don't use references" debate is that it's not new at all. Artists who grew up like me in the early 2010's know DeviantArt used to have this exact toxic mindset back in the day

[@kathyhenry9512]

It was even a debate on DA before the 2010s. I know cause I lived through it and it truly hindered my progress as a young artist

[@ShannonWasHere]

I’m so glad I never got into that mindset while I was active on DA, it was this and also using bases was huge discourse. I never saw a problem with using bases as long as credit was given. I used them a fair amount since I only made mlp fanart on ms paint but soon I learnt how to draw them myself in my own style. We need to stop discouraging young artists from utilising tools available to them that can help them learn. References, bases, tracing, they’re all tools that are there to be utilised when and if you need them and can help a lot in the long run

[@sturmfreii7219]

I just commented about this lol I credit a reference on a piece on DA in 2006 and was chased off the site as a teen. It took me 10 years to post art online again 😅

[@heydiddlediddlethecatandth5251]

I think some people also need to acknowledge that some people struggle with aphantasia. Like it might be physically difficult for some people to recall what's in their heads properly. I don't have very high phantasia, so when I draw without reference, I'm mostly just experimenting with the page using stick figures first and then building around that. It's far from exact. I'd say it's usually 60% identical to what I imagined. It's still important to practice drawing without reference, but I think using reference is necessary for any artist at any stage from time to time.

[@snowden6790]

was literally about to comment the exact same thing. it's pretty much impossible for me to solidly imagine something in the first place, forget about actually transferring it onto paper.

[@LilChuunosuke]

I don't have aphantasia, but I do have poor memory, so it can be hard to remember complex things like where a muscle connects or how it overlaps with other forms despite regularly studying and practicing anatomy.

[@lapindos]

I can't even imagine colors in my head, yet still trying to draw without any references and often that's just painful. Still don't understand why people judging others even for using references properly without tracing anything.

[@Spamhard]

Was looking for a comment like this. I don't have full aphantasia, but I do really struggle to imagine precise concepts. I can think of a pose, like crossing your legs but I can't really imagine it in my head clearly or have any real understanding of how to put that onto page. it's sorta like looking at everything with bad eye sight, like sure I know what someone with crossed legs looks like in theory, but can I portray that? Nope, Picturing it is just blobby and blurry until I find a reference that I can go "oh, like that!". (It's also why I don't personally enjoy reading fictional books, because I literally can't imagine the setting and characters being explained, they're just kinda faceless blobs existing in a void talking to each other.)

[@trikinya]

My mind's eye is odd. Sometimes I can imagine a blurry figure of the whole thing, but when it's up close like a macro camera I can only really focus on one or two details. Like if I imagine an apple, it's right up close to where the stem appears, but I rapidly switch from envisioning the texture to the color or the lighting or the shape, and it's not all at the same time; it kind of quickly strobes between stuff.

[@MyFictionalChaos]

My theory is that it is young people who have never taken any formal art education and grow up online, they see comments like "tracing is bad!" They haven't learned any art fundamentals yet and have only doodled from their imagination. So they come into the conversation about plagiarism before theyre ready to fully understand it. And then start to think references are bad, which is just, the complete opposite of how art is meant to be learned when you consider learning fundamentals like perspective, shading, anatomy, colors, lighting -- pretty much every aspect of art is learned from practicing

[@dimashch4816]

How am i supposed to draw a scenery without a scenery?

[@MohammedAgbadi]

lmaoooo this is disturbing lmfao

[@ladykaydoesart7702]

Nah, ya see you're supposed to just see all the scenery and then just...recreate it, like a camera lol.

[@Nolava0why7Because0yes]

Clearly you dream it up, then build it off that 🗿

[@vibrantgleam]

LEGIT. How am I supposed to draw an accurate version of a scenery if people tell me not to use a reference of one?

[@ryomen_sukuna-m6h]

you become a professional sculpture and sclupt the entire scene from your own head with your own clay, and then draw it 👍 (/j)

[@liesalllies]

I went to art school and this is hilarious. Drawing from reference is literally how you learn to draw. And if you want to improve you never stop learning from reference.

[@helixier6629]

if the disney masterpiece movies back then needed to have people acting out the scenes IRL then IDK , maybe reference is important hello???

[@MohammedAgbadi]

bruh acting every single animation out and using it as reference ontop of that

[@Effaly_]

And that's why I don't upload my art on social media. I just draw for myself, mostly as stressrelief. I don't have the time or the energy for people like this.

[@Lavenderina_Garden]

Whenever I use references I know what I'm looking at. That's a good thing. Without it, I can't think of what I'm doing. So references may be needed for a drawing or if it's a fun doodle, go for it.

[@MucepheisBustyBust]

Sounds like an excuse to be cheating!! But in all seriousness, references are amazing

[@Lavenderina_Garden]

@@MucepheisBustyBust yeah, and if I'm drawing a character that exists, I have to identify their designs.

[@suncheta]

I go to art school and we all have to draw from reference. It's literally how you learn art. My teachers who are professional artists told me that they could never draw without a reference, they even need a reference when drawing abstract art. All the old masters used references. I don't understand why using references is so looked down upon when they've always been such a crucial thing for artists

[@musicloverslurper]

This is as stupid as pose theft fr fr 😭😭😭

[@MohammedAgbadi]

😭😭😭😭

[@MohammedAgbadi]

wait what? you srs? there's a thing called pose theft now?

[@MohammedAgbadi]

lmaooo wait. yuou cant be serious..im literally readin this over and over and laughing

[@1kaz1]

​@@MohammedAgbadi yeah it's not new, it was a controversy some years ago haha I think we got over it tho

[@BlitzDinkabooming]

@@MohammedAgbadiwait till you hear about color theft

[@LilChuunosuke]

There are literally video recordings from Disney of actors & actresses acting out scenes for the animators to directly trace over. Kim Jung Gi learned how to draw from imagination...by using references until he memorized the forms. Some of the pros, some of the most respected teachers in the art world, cannot draw from imagination. I bought into that bs as a kid and while being able to draw without reference is a fun little flex I can display when pulling up references isnt feasible, the difference in the quality of my work is quite noticeable. I didn't learn how to draw because I wanted people who were better than me to dictate how I'm supposed to draw and people who are worse than me to get jealous and bow down to me. I draw because its fun!

[@DrelvanianGuardOffic]

The most iconic painting in history is The Mona Lisa, and it was a painting of a model. Imagine telling Leonardo Da Vinci he's not a real artist because he uses a reference.

[@firstnamelastname3403]

references make our art library bigger. it is for experience. if you are a new artist and not one of the masters, using references is a must. especially something you don't really know about. everyone uses reference. people think using references is a weakness is art. but it isn't, everyone uses references.

[@watekostile]

even masters draw with references

[@Trid3nt861]

Even the great art masters used reference. The great comic artists used reference.

[@MohammedAgbadi]

everybody uses reference but they think not

[@liyan00]

Someone needs to make a questionnaire for all artists, "artists", and art gatekeepers about their opinions on art and/or their creative process cause I am getting more curious about whether there's a correlation between some things. (including their main platform, views on technology and AI, main style inspiration, views on references and art studies, their main art medium, whether they use additional creative apps (eg. milanote), when their art journey/interest in art started, etc.). I think it would be really interesting.

[@dannydanny2789]

And then an art history quiz which would heavily correlate with delusional opinions about art from the first questionnaire lol

[@fevid7617]

If you want to directly copy something because it looks inspiring and you want to learn how it was done call it a study and source the original work. (maybe even ask for permission to make a study of the work if you can) Artists I've asked seem flattered to have their work 'studied,' just source them correctly and don't claim to have come up with it. I actually recommend more people study the art they are impressed with, working through something step by step is a good way to learn how something is done.

[@MyFictionalChaos]

Usually if im intentionally using someone's style or art as a study, I will credit them. It is pretty easy to go "inspired by @/artist" But most of the time these days I pick up small things from a lot of different artists :)

[@bearded-cat]

art community is so exhausting

[@Tealen]

but it shouldnt

[@okultusrexus3660]

Yeah I'm just returning full speed to illustration after some 20 years of software and graphic design and stumbling on this YT account is the first I'm seeing of this new online phenomenon. It's wild shit from my perspective, what the hell has happened to young people today? It's crazy and off-putting to even share my art although I intend to produce commercial work I'm not sure that I want to participate in this circus.

[@MrChitakifsy]

@@okultusrexus3660 its a vocal minority as usual. Just share your art and have fun, block the clowns that try to spread nonsense

[@mushroom7604]

Yeah, I might get cancelled for when I used to trace my own art if they somehow figure that out lol

[@okultusrexus3660]

@@mushroom7604 Most artists can tell because most artists have done it and know what to look for =)

[@lizwicksonatastudios]

“Using references is cheating!!!11” …Did I ask you?

[@MohammedAgbadi]

LMFAOOO like who asked!!!

[@jonelrobinson7432]

Right?! I hate when they say references or tracing is cheating. We all have to trace something at some point in our lives.

[@GabrielleTollerson]

​@@MohammedAgbadi IKR 😂😂😂

[@GabrielleTollerson]

​@@jonelrobinson7432 for real!! Like how do they think renaissance painters and sculpters got their ideas?? 😂😂

[@FlantasyFlan]

I've been doing art for longer than some of these ArtTok gatekeepers have been alive. This conversation comes around again and again every few years.

[@nervouswreck1899]

The tracing thing is a whole conversation on its own but being shamed for using REFERENCES? I did a presentation on Norman Rockwell earlier this year and did some research on how he made his art. While he did learn to draw from life like regular life drawing classes teach, he taught himself to use a camera and photograph his references. He would pose people and take pictures of the scene, and then exaggerate those poses and facial expressions to fit his style. Even Michelangelo had multiple referenced sketches to prepare to do the Sistine Chapel. I’m not one for art history, but it seems so easy to forget that even great artists before us use these methods for a reason. Great video as always, and I hope your next drawing session goes well for you. Best regards!

[@dannydanny2789]

Tracing is totally ok in a lot of cases, that's how people make animation frames and renaissance artists used a contraption called camera lucida which is basically tracing from a photo before photography was even invented.

[@nervouswreck1899]

@@dannydanny2789 Its funny, I was actually watching a bit of a documentary on cameras yesterday, and they mentioned a device like that! Photography and reference has definitely helped artists throughout history

[@dannydanny2789]

@@nervouswreck1899 yeah, it was a godsend for sure! Although ethical sourcing of photos for commercial art is still important, be it taking the pictures yourself or buying them from stock sites if possible haha

[@Nikodraws149]

Everything I know about art tiktok sounds like a nightmare. It's like Very Early Deviant Art when everyone was an annoying 12 year old all over again.

[@TheFangg]

not even surprised tiktok artists are causing drama again (Wheeyy posted 1 minute ago!??)

[@MohammedAgbadi]

W noti gang!

[@mr.whocares8787]

quoting a tumblr post here. "we need to stop turning everything into a 'skill' or a 'competition'. drawing, singing and dancing are just activities. the same way birds sing and bees make hives."

[@xMilkyLemon]

I think the best way to trace poses that works for me personally is to draw directly on top of the reference image but instead of drawing the outline of your subject, you divide it into shapes and also draw a stick figure skeleton or at least a line of action if it’s a dynamic pose. Then you open up ANOTHER canvas and redraw the same shapes you drew on top of the image as your actual reference. Not only will you not be 100% directly tracing, you will also have a better understanding of how the pose works in the first place :)

[@midgetkirsten8284]

i cant stress this enough!!! really good tip for artists out there, helped me a lot

[@Meowstrosity]

YESS!! It's super helpful and I do it with my own art all the time. You can adjust the body type and pose easily, or even the flow of hair strands or how the clothes sit on top of the figure if you blob it first :D I always do references + sketch -> blobbing + adjustments -> sketch on top of blob -> lineart -> conveniently use the blobs to flat color -> render edit: this technique is priceless to figure out silhouette too

[@itsdripnovababy]

I don’t usually reference when drawing something, but MY GOLLY are my drawings much better when I use references.

[@lydiahogue8075]

Literally all of my senior artists in my job stress the importance of a reference 😂

[@Bossk-q2n]

Most famous painters throughout history have been drawing from references, its the essence of ART, its the ability to recreate what you see, why is this even a topic, this is madness. These people hinder their and others progress by forbidding the use of it, I can speak from personal experience, every time I use reference, results are always infinitely better. Never shy away from using references because trust me that cool artist who's art you really like is 100% using some.

[@YelloMelloo]

Oh no not again

[@MohammedAgbadi]

😭😭😭

[@stephaniet1389]

That phrase always reminds me of a certain pot of petunias hurtling towards the earth alongside a baby whale.

[@ericsgabbs]

drawing from reference literally makes your art better because you’re drawing what you see, theres a video on that it’s something about your right brain

[@OwLisDoodles]

Sadly gatekeeping will always be around. So glad you put it into perspective again. Seeing more artists actively working against it, makes my heart all warm and fuzzy. Thank you 🧡 Have seen this debate coming up ever since I started sharing my art on the internet (I think I started around 2007/2008??) come up in waves every now and then. It always depended on where the place was where I showed any creative work. There were some that felt safer and there were some that felt incredibly unsafe for me. Finding more places to feel safe with art again currently and this video actively helped ;W;

[@smoppet]

Nothing truly exfoliates your skin like not talking to online artists. Ahhh~I feel hydrated~!

[@mickymcbryan4814]

I trace 3D models that I make a sculpt myself, as well as sometimes assets that I have bought the license for, and or, are a free use license. And even then I often change the object to fit what I’m doing int the illustration. But for practice I always free hand draw to keep my fundamentals strong. Tracing 3D scenes I create myself is basically a time saving tool

[@AquaAstro]

I always love drawing even if im not good at it, i cant imagine not using an image from google or Pinterest for a photo reference of the character and/or pose im drawing

[@marayagury6222]

“You arent a good fisher if you used fishing rod” kind of energy

[@beyoudocs]

Love this video Mohammed I always look forward to your content! You make brilliant videos

[@MohammedAgbadi]

thankyou so much pookie🍒

[@BiodegradableYTP]

In the short time I've been watching this channel, I am convinced TikTok is turning a young generation of artists into blithering idiots.

[@raineblackstar3522]

Yeah my mother is also part of the gatekeeping community. In real life. I had traced a real photo of a fox and colored it in with the colors from the photo. Because that's usually how you learn anatomy of the thing you're trying to draw. What does she say, instead of praise that i managed to make it look good? "Oh you've traced again. You should try to use the picture as reference instead." I can't for the life of me copy a photo from just a reference, so i have to learn from tracing first. Guess that's not allowed now. It's not as if i traced someone's art either. Just some photo found on google.

[@LoveYourself-318]

trying to replicate a single image = study taking a bajillion images, taking aspects of each and creating an entirely new image = referencing both are perfectly valid depending on the intentions of the art and sometimes replicating an image can be a finished piece depending on style

[@oof3215]

Next thing you know they're going to be gatekeeping paper and art tablets..

[@gore1135]

I found it most useful to try one pose 3 times: trace it once, draw with the reference once, and without the reference once. You can get the proportions right the first time and then find the areas you lack in when you draw it the second time. The third attempt is to help remember the “action points” or places to exaggerate the pose to show action. Practice as little as possible on social media too

[@daisy_fl0w3rs]

Art tiktok is just a drama farm bro its wild

[@sigmamale.39]

the best trick that i've found for tracing for learning without the guilt is taking picture of myself, tracing myself with 3d gridding and shape blocking, make sure i take notes and emphasize stuff i'll miss, and then never look at it again. it's like how writing down words will make you remember and use them, tracing is a form of studying when used correctly and in solitude. trace and apply, don't trace and claim

[@mattmon6118]

The mentality of drawing from imagination being the best all and all was prevalent when i started drawing in 2021 (by this video it seems it still is), and because it wasn’t something i could do, and it’s still not something i can do very well, i felt and sometimes still feel shame about using references. I know intellectually/academically that it’s not cheating or wrong, but the feeling bad about referencing is something i deal with often enough. I am trying to be a bit more loose and not worry so much, but it’s tough some times Thanks for the video. 💫💫💫💫💫

[@motobaafeoke4900]

Tbh, don't be scared to use references. And if you're concerned about the whole online debate, you can take a photo of yourself and use that instead. I don't even know where that shame comes from, but I've noticed that my drawings are tons better when I use references and I also enjoy myself more when I'm not constantly cracking my skull trying to figure out what to do next

[@mattmon6118]

@@motobaafeoke4900 Thanks for the encouragement 🙏 I am feeling better currently about using references than i was during a bout of art low and slight burn out earlier this year. And i hope to try to stay looser and more relaxed as far as referencing is concerned

[@Mr-__-Sy]

Ok I'll get huge hate for this but, in a conversation on twitter about references from AI someone replied to me with something imposibilty stupid, basically they said that AI distorts the perspective and that any art with busted perspective is not art, I made the mistake on pointing out Picasso, and they proceded to say that he's not a real artist. I was and still am amazed at how stupid that sounded

[@errorraccoon6169]

I think the major difference on what people are talking about is the difference between reference and heavy reference. Heavy reference is when you can tell the art piece is based on this specific photo. The lines won’t match up unless part of it was traced, but it’s still visible the photo was used. Plain reference is more of if you were struggling with the hand or feet, so you grab a chart full of hands, none in the exact pose, and use it to learn the basic shapes and then make your own new drawing. Both sides are valid, and the line can get really blur because it’s really a spectrum, but I think most of the arguments, especially from the anti-reference people, come from thinking of one side and saying it’s the whole thing. That’s what I think anyway. Also, the best skill I learned for studying poses is to draw a photo with your reference on one page, heavily referenced, and then once you’re done, turn the page and hide your reference photo. You should have a the general form in your head from just drawing it but your also learning how to build it. Once you’re done you can go between the reference, heavily referenced drawing, and the no reference drawing and compare and contrast.

[@torchlight1785]

I'm just starting to push myself to learn drawing digitally, and I can't help but feel like there is so much good art tips, but it can be overwhelming to just digest them all. Love the vids though!

[@Exoskeleton2921]

Most of the best, most popular, and most well known art in the world… is made from reference

[@SuperRitro]

Wow, big thumbs up for the professional artist who is not ashamed of the pose-tracing and shows how it can be used properly without crossing the boundaries of plagiarism.

[@86fifty]

The best metaphor I heard about this issue is about cooking - it's like saying, "you're not a Real Chef if you follow a recipe! You should be able to cook from imagination alone!" Now, it's true, some very good chefs CAN make up a dish from imagination alone... But that's only possible BECAUSE they spent YEARS copying from recipes. Sure, they shouldn't publish a cookbook with all-copied-recipes and say that that's all their own stuff. But on the other hand - they can't be accused of plagiarism just because they cook a dish that includes tomato sauce, ya know? And imagine hearing that kind of gatekeeping as a scared beginner cook, or as a home cook who is not trying to sell anything, just get thru their day? Smh

[@redtailarts101]

I can say because of what I'm doing right now, tracing can definitely help you learn anatomy, but you have to be using it to deconstruct the form and not to trace the lines. I'm making a wing reference for a character and I used 3 different wing references (for folded, half folded, and open) and broke them all down into segments so I could understand how wings work. I have to take liberties with one of the wings because the character got his wing injured while they were first growing and it never quite formed right, so breaking down the anatomy of the wing into segments and understanding wings is really helping me understand how to make the injury work. I also make observations about things I see in real life, but I don't just replicate things, I take note of elements. For example, light/shadow diffusion and how things far from a light source get gradually darker while you get harder, sharper shadows from obstruction is something I've taken note of. That's something I can apply to any drawing. Tracing references and using references in general are helpful even if you change nothing about the art but you gotta use them properly. Deconstruct form, deconstruct lighting, deconstruct colors, deconstruct whatever you need to understand to improve your art overall

[@highchampking]

Them: "Real artists don't use reference" Me: *reminding myself how well that worked for medieval European monks when drawing animals they've never seen*😒

[@yeetus_the_short]

“Don’t sketch you should do it first try” will be the next thing

[@SRLYFND]

How dare you call us DRAWERS. WE ARENT SOMETHING U PUT STUFF IN 0:24

[@donaldcatReal]

"put stuff in" 😏

[@lilmao4482]

According to tiktok, this statement is only 40% true

[@YOYLECARSS]

​@@lilmao4482tik tok is not a trustable source

[@C-sé.speakin]

Drawer>>>>>>Draftsman

[@Half_of_The_World]

I mean, £20 is £20

[@dencsyy]

I really want to start a short animation channel on TikTok but these type of things discourages me... not because of the criticism hell nah i love that, you can't grow without it. It's more that i fear a "cancel hate" wave for no reason :/

[@midnightartist43]

“Using references is cheating!!1!11!” I mean I do it all the time and no one has noticed yet so I gotta be doing something right-

[@carlwhatever1957]

But Mona Lisa.. According to Peabody and Sherman, it used an actual person who sat in a pose for an extended period of time and that artwork is goated..

[@GromusPrime]

Mfs when they realise the Mona Lisa was drawn with reference AND isn't even a finished painting:

[@PhilipLaSnail]

okay but what if I paint the mona lisa and would say that I made it? Is this okay?

[@Sunny_DeeLight]

@@PhilipLaSnailis that really your crappy excuse bro? 😂

[@PhilipLaSnail]

@@Sunny_DeeLight If there is a sketch that someone made and I copy it, is it really mine?

[@Sunny_DeeLight]

@@PhilipLaSnail if you are using it as guideline for your own art, then it is not stealing. Doing that is necessary to learn and grow as an artist. You clearly haven’t learned that.

[@SmileyFaceEmoticon01]

I remembered an artist I used to idolize from the deviantart days. The biggest red flag he had that made me realize I shouldn't be following him anymore was that on twitter he was proud of not drawing anything without references. As in he gloated about not needing references, despite being a professional artist. So nowadays whenever I see people gloating about not using references I remember that moment in my life. 6:55 My god the gall these random ass strangers have to say this to a professional artist. ISTG!

[@fallencyano9015]

i enjoy your videos mohammed :)

[@MohammedAgbadi]

thankyou sm fallen

[@graviti4free]

All my friends who are master of their craft "hmm ah yes I see" and the continue to draw again without drama

[@backupforthevideos3861]

Didn’t Da Vinci dug out and stole corpses for reference, so he could learn the anatomy in an even more detail? To my knowledge, such practice wasn’t uncommon amongst renaissance artists

[@HeySlothKid]

He paid other people to dig them up but yeah he dissected dozens of corpses. I'd say using stock photos is more ethical AND less smelly!

[@dannydanny2789]

There was a whole contraption called camera lucida in the renaissance era which is basically tracing photos before photography was even invented.

[@backupforthevideos3861]

@@HeySlothKid yep, i agree

[@backupforthevideos3861]

@@dannydanny2789 Thanks for the cool new fact ☺

[@julia15206]

drawing with a reference is like cooking with a cook book, you can read the book or make food from memory it will still be food. for me drawing with no reference is how i like to draw but i still hit road blocks sometimes where im like "um how does this thing work again?" and then i can take a picture of my hands or braid my own hair and just look to try and understand it better. animals for example can be so wierd, like i know what it should look like but its not like i know everything about what goes where. and when im outside im thinking "that would be fun to draw" or "i want to use those colors", so you dont need to look online for reference imo.

[@WhatABinglylittlescronklylil-]

It’s like they expect someone to know exactly how a hand looks from a fish eye angle, how fabric naturally wrinkles and flows over a body, how the muscles flex and curve under flesh. No f*cker, we’re humans- we don’t know these things so we use reference. 💀

[@iiphroggy734]

What do you MEAN you don’t just know exactly what a human’s bone structure looks without a reference. You’re not a real artist if you dont know what the insides of a human looks like and how it works without ever using a reference smh my head 🙄

[@rainbowemerald2406]

​@@iiphroggy734 I'm sorry what

[@Amanita._.Verosa._.]

I'm guessing these people don't realize that drawing without external help is still using the reference of information in your mind. You are always using a reference unless you're free sketching. That is why we separate it with the words free sketching.

[@lessname2184]

dang first time early, love ur videos mohammed

[@MohammedAgbadi]

dang early gang!!

[@leviathinh3261]

i just wanna say how clean your cut is today and keep up with the video aswell.

[@JoJoTheModern]

I took a painting class once (nothing serious, just a hobby thing), and the teacher made everybody use ONLY paint, saying, "We could start with a pencil, but that would be cheating." To this day I have no idea whether she actually meant that, or the class budget just didn't include pencils so she had to make an excuse.

[@SeventhGate008]

😂

[@wxs.emuotorii]

so planning what to paint and where to paint is cheating? uh oh

[@noyaayman6304]

one time i was scrolling on pinterst and i saw a really cool drawing of a sword while i was reading stuff from the photo i noticed that the person how had posted it had written something along the line of no tracing no something else i forgot sorry but what shooked me most is the the artist said no using for insperion witch was insane to me

[@iiphroggy734]

stuff like that always confused me 😭😭 i get asking for not getting traced, its reasonable if they dont want their sword fully taken, but no inspiration is WILD cause thats like saying you can’t draw ANY swords if it looks even remotely close to their sword.

[@WitchesAndStitches]

For me, I HAVE to have references with me always as I have really bad memory because of my disorders. However I usually go for visual refs once I've established how to do the thing. However, before that, I sometimes take art that I find and trace over it. HOWEVER. My methods are, first, establishing guidelines, then breaking it down into simple shapes over my guidelines, and then break down the details from there. I do it a few times(privately of course.) and then I only use my practice sketches WITHOUT the og art used and then freehand a few practice pieces to practice what I've learned and see if I'm still able to get from point a to point b without my "training wheels" so to speak. This has actually helped with my anatomy funk significantly and I'm able to freehand it without tracing anything. I also found using this to help learn shading techniques helps a lot too. You break it down into more simpler pieces and then map out how they got from point a to point b. Then, use what you learned on your own freehanded(non-traced mind you.) work. To practice what you've learned. The goal being, to pick up the skills without having to trace these particular practice things anymore cause you've cracked the code and created your own map to get the the same destination on your own. Also, don't ever upload your traced studies. You can upload the freehanded ones using what you learned as at that point, you've taken the training wheels off and are riding on your own. It also helps if trace over your freehanded practice work too, using only visual references. That way you can further break down and figure how to improve from there now that you've established your own map or guide without having to trace your ref. Aka, utilizing what you've learned to go beyond your references. As the goal isn't to copy someone's work but rather to understand their "journey" and how they got to their "destination". What shapes do they use? Guidelines? *lighting?* ect. and sometimes it turns out to be...so simple that once you have that AHA moment, You're able to use these things in *your* own way via your own map.

[@Mochaa-]

Smh…can arttok keep it together for 5 minutes? 0:07 my brain died at this point

[@MohammedAgbadi]

😭😭😭

[@afraidto]

FINALLY A KZbinR WHO PUTS SUBTITLES THAT ARENT AUTO GENERATED BADLY OR ONLY PUTS SUBTITLES ON DRAMATIC PARTS!

[@shaii5526]

Is really easy, you need to know how it looks something before drawing it 💀 what the hell is happening with the art community?

[@MDigitalProductions]

I'll never understand these social media artists that criticize everything, first it was throwing shade at art styles, soon it will be "drawing lines don't make you an artist" like looking at reference is n normal! I agree with Mr.Agbadi, the old masters and professionals and use reference always.

[@cottoncandycrybaby]

time is a flat circle. i remember early deviantart days when there'd be hundreds of journals and comments discouraging young artists from using references because it was "cheating, lazy, etc." (both being posted by young artists and inexperienced adult artists) it's a terrible mindset with seemingly no origin. i remember the userbase largely growing out of this issue into the late 2000s and then coming back again with the advent of new users coming onto the site around early 2010s spouting the same bs. nothing has changed, tiktok just has a larger (and louder) audience. my advice to the younger artists starting out: do not discourage using references or give out your critique if you aren't fully aware of all the fundamentals. instead, lift each other up and be willing to gain more knowledge to better your skills. if you are willing to learn, then you will succeed. work smarter, not harder. (quite literally every renaissance painter used live reference and professional artists everyone use reference materials, that's the whole point of asset and ref sites / books.) good luck and i hope to see your work in the future.

[@cottoncandycrybaby]

my own work suffered for about 10 years becuase i refused to use references. in a way, refusing to look at references also made it difficult for me to understand what i truly wanted out of my work and so i never really truly had direction until i was in my late teens / early twenties. if you ignore references, you are just wasting your own time.

[@TinyRoseTamer]

Basically...don't argue & pay attention to the stupid/ignorant; you'll put yourself at their level & no one wins. Draw anyway you want!!!

[@artsyhoodies]

I used to hate references when I was around 12-13. I suffered as a result. My art began to improve after I started using references. I can still draw from my head, but I still use references often (sometimes even asking my friends for poses or using my own hands for hand poses).

[@rd3munna812]

People are forgetting the fact our imagination is a combination of what we can see. This is also the reason why blind people can't imagine sky or how colour look like

[@novaexplosion8257]

Feel like taking your own photos for reference is something artists should do more. There's so much about composition and shape and things you can learn from doing photography, noticing what shapes show up in the world around you and what makes things interesting even if it's not created to have a certain composition you want. I do photography waaay more than I do art and my art tends to reflect that in the compositions and layouts and lighting and such even if it's not a super realistic style that I draw in. If I need a reference, I can also just. Go look in my photos if I want to. I tend not to use many references and I've been trying to use them more just because if you don't you forget how things actually work that you're trying to represent.

[@dannydanny2789]

I've recently seen a comment under a Ken Penders video which pointed out that his new ugly hadgehogs from the newer comic books ALL HAVE KEN PENDERS' MOUTH SHAPE. So use it sparingly hahaha

[@cosmospicyyy]

i thoroughly dislike koolean but there’s one thing she said that i can agree with: “Nothing is original.” it was pretty encouraging hearing it in context, so i’ll give her points for that.

[@I_lovedonkeyss7583]

References actually helped me SOO much when drawing bodies-

[@ared18t]

This man. The Internet is full of useless art drama!!! Me: "Oh you don't say" 😂