Mormon Polygamy Apologetics w/ Sandra Tanner Pt. 3 - Ep. 1577

[@donna5847]

I have so much respect for Gerald and Sandra Tanner ❣❣❣

[@michellemartone4417]

As with Leah Remini and Mike Rinder with Scientology, Mormon Stories Podcast is shining a light on the atrocious of the Mormon Church. Keep up the good work!

[@janemaas4225]

Great podcast. All of you have presented everything so precisely. I have listened to Ms. Tanner for years. Read her books and papers that she has published. More shows please. 💜❤️

[@jesse1008]

I didn’t realize Sandra has such a good sense of humor, so subtle but funny. So much love and respect for her ❤️

[@jeannycastro2379]

Sandra is an extremely smart person. Humor is usually part of that.

[@beckylynncoplengreer9136]

Sandra! We’re you running a Mormon Bookstore in Nauvoo in April 1994? I remember walking into this bookstore and seeing a big quilt on the wall that had several depictions of The First Vision. The woman said to me, you know there are several versions of the First Vision don’t you? I did a quick scan of the bookstore and realized I was in an ExMo bookstore and turned and reflexively bore my testimony and walked out. Please know I am sorry! I have come to respect you so much. It was this lesson in SS 2013 that opened my eyes to Joseph’s 42 wives and then verified it in research at BYU library that started my deconversion line upon line. I came to realize you are an amazing champion. Thank you! ❤️ My GGG grandma was married to her 51 yr old Bishop on her 15th Birthday along with another 15 yr old girl. 1856. How sick is that? 😭

[@Katherine-ep3ms]

It’s amazing to realize how closely we are tied to Warren Jeffs. I’m so sad for your GGG grandmother!!! How heartbreaking 💔

[@sandratanner8149]

Becky, no I did not run the Christian book store in Nauvoo, but I was friends with those who did.

[@harpazohope]

Absolutely love Sandra. What a sweet soul. And funny to boot. I wish I knew her in person.

[@cynthiavermillion4675]

Interesting that the female BYU students haven’t given polygamy a thought. My oldest daughter told me recently that the thought of having to practice polygamy in eternity made her question the church as a teenager.

[@Dxrhelto]

Always thoroughly enjoy Sandra’s podcasts. She’s phenomenal!! Thank you for another great podcast

[@kentthalman4459]

Check out Maven's experience that she recounts in live chat - "​I remember my seminary teacher asking us girls if we'd deny our best friends Exaltation by refusing to let them marry our husband in Eternity. and it WORKED on me!"

[@RosyJreams]

Jen is Amazing and I truly appreciate her reactions, input, insight, and her true ❤ 💙 💜 💖

[@martiwillis1848]

Me too.

[@sandratanner8149]

I agree, her perspective was a great addition.

[@timhansen234]

When a person starts interfering in other people's love lives is when murders start happening.... No wonder he got killed....

[@franklinshouse8719]

This is a great discussion. Sandra is wonderful. Great judgment and experience.

[@auriejeffery]

Laughing about this was really healing for me. I was laughing right along with you, as a Mormon woman who has been hurt by this doctrine. I get angry when people speak of this “scripture” with reverence. It’s awesome to hear y’all laughing about this shit show - it should be laughed at. You’re helping me deconstruct, helping me know the context around it, and on top of that laughing at the ridiculousness, which obliterates its old power in my mind and helps me let it go.

[@kentthalman4459]

Such an awesome panel.

[@atphoenix2020]

Just watching this podcast. Two comments: In the Fundamentalist movement, the throat slitting sign is still used (from personal experience as of 4 years ago). Given one or many "talents" does not mean you are a great baker or crafy person. "Talents" = "wives"

[@juliemartin5397]

This never Mormon loves Sandra Tanner so much. She is a walking encyclopaedia!. I am a Christian, Church of England. Fascinated by Mormonism as loved the Osmonds for 50 years and know them as good good people. I just cannot wrap my head around parts of Mormonism which are so wrong. There is only one heaven, believe in Jesus and everyone will be together no one is shunned, the Lord would not do that to his children. Also he made his children..... and some are gay...... Der!! So what love is love ❤️❤️❤️❤️.

[@bodytrainer1crane730]

I love this critical thinking Sunday school. Wish it had been this way when I was a member. I would have had some good/bitter laughs and then gone in another direction.

[@dorifrance4937]

A never-mo here, but I feel like JS was trying somehow trying to make Emma an image of Mary, the mother of Jesus somehow, but his egotistical, chauvinistic, sexual desires came first, and he decided to make it all about his own pleasures.

[@lambchop6128]

Bummed I didn’t get to listen live to this final episode in the series. Something that rattles around in my head was the question raised as to why Emma was referred to as a ‘handmaid. It strikes me that this was a way that enabled Joseph to ‘connect’ this troubling content to the Old Testament. And, he had to use the women to do it.

[@LeeLee-nx6dc]

I had a laughing fit one night because I was so mad that these men can commit adultery and other horrible things. But we are all going to Hell for masturbating.

[@jamesnutt4627]

Kind like the wizard of oz, behind the curtain?

[@jamesnutt4627]

Wouldn’t Emma be heavenly mother ?

[@susanjoyce8053]

Jen, my Jesus is very sympathetic towards women. The woman caught in “adultery”, Jesus knelt down and started writing in the dirt, the religious leaders left one by one. I think Jesus was writing the religious leaders sins in the dirt. The culture of Jesus’ day was not kind to women. Jesus did not institute that culture. Please do not compare the “Mormon god” to God. My never Mormon understanding is that the Mormon god was a man who had been exalted. In the garden of Eden, wasn’t the “sin” that Adam and Eve wanted to be like God? Isn’t that what being exalted and getting your own planet and being exalted is to become god? I find it “offensive” when the Book of Mormon is referred to as scripture and that God is interrpreted by what Joseph Smith said what and who God is.

[@elainebeard2922]

Is this not like the adulteress in the New Testament.?😤makes me mad

[@JohnW4ng]

We say "weird" alot when talking about JS Jr.'s behavior, but I don't think it's weird at all. If you learn about modern cults (NXIM, rajneeshees, Colonia Dignidad, Warren Jeffs, etc) the story is the same in so many of the key ways. Actually, his behavior was "playbook" or "typical" if anything. Accumulating sexual partners via organizational coercion, using access to sex as a way to manipulate members, and so on. These are bread-and-butter cult tactics. That's not to say it's acceptable. I would say "corrupt", "depraved", "debased", "manipulative", "abusive" before I would say weird.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

Not weird (meaning unusual) when you're talking about intensely manipulative and controlling cults that essentially make slaves of their followers. But such cults and their leaders are definitely weird from the perspective of outsiders. The list of adjectives you suggest are also appropriate. But from my perspective "weird" is also applicable. One almost cannot talk about Mormonism without the word "weird" coming to mind often. Just think about the temple rituals (which initially were created as part of the manipulation that accompanied the imposition of Mormon polygamy). Weird is the word.

[@jamesnutt4627]

Could it be Joseph didn’t have children from these women because he had low sperm count or could father children at that time ? How many children did Emma and Joseph have ?

[@saffronhammer7714]

The story of where Jesus says “He who has not sinned…” was added 700 years later. So if Jesus existed he never said that.

[@saffronhammer7714]

The story of the “adulterous woman” is not original to the gospels. And yeah, why doesn't jesus treat women as equals to men?

[@marionbartley214]

Oh my gosh The more I listen to this third episode on polygamy and Joseph Smith. And all his shenanigans, I just want to say seriously really dude what made you think it was okay. To get away with all this stuff and more importantly. I think the church hides all this crap from its investigators that's for sure. Because I never heard any of this before I join the church. 20 + years ago. ( Inactive now for about 7 years) Because if I would have heard all this crap beforehand. I would have said oh heck no. And the topper off is just as declaring himself to be a king 😡 . Right up there with Jesus Christ and God the Father. What a total insult and so much more than I can't even really put words to. At this point a joke.

[@marycross5010]

God's name is such a curse to mankind thanks to this kind of people.

[@jenawilson7242]

Think of the child support

[@jenawilson7242]

Love Sandra

[@jlewis8145]

Jesus’ response, read in modern English, strikes some people as abrupt, even impolite or rude. He responds, “Woman, what does this have to do with me? My hour has not yet come” (ESV). It’s Jesus’ addressing His mother as “Woman” that seems most rude to us. What Jesus says to His mother in John 2:4 sounds almost rude in English. However, in the original language, and in that culture, Mary would not have interpreted Jesus’ words that way. The term woman was used like we use the term ma’am. By addressing Mary this way, Jesus does distance Himself from His mother somewhat-He was exerting His independence from her wishes-but in no way was it a rude manner of speaking. Jesus lovingly uses the same word from the cross when He tells Mary that He is entrusting her to John’s care (John 19:26). The question Jesus asks His mother isn’t rude, either. It may sound rude in the KJV: “What have I to do with thee?” (John 2:4), but it was a common idiom. In the Greek, Jesus’ question is “Ti emoi kai soi?” The phrase was used to ask of the connection between two people. “What does this have to do with me?” (ESV) or “Why do you involve me?” (NIV). Again, Jesus is expressing the fact that He is independent of His mother; as eager as Mary was to see Jesus do a miracle, she had no right to determine the time or the manner in which Jesus publicly revealed His glory. Jesus makes His point gently and without being rude, however. Jesus concludes His statement to Mary with, “My hour has not yet come.” The reference to His “hour” or “time” means that Jesus was constantly working from a divine timetable. So, He wasn’t going to reveal His power sooner than God the Father intended (see John 5:30). One of the points Jesus made in His temptation in the desert was that there is such a thing as doing the right thing for the wrong reasons (Matthew 4:1-10). That is, it would be wrong to perform a miracle if the time and place are not according to God’s will. Jesus did act, performing His first miracle. He turned the water into wine, but He did so in a very subtle, subdued way. Only the servants, Mary, and a few disciples even knew what He had done. The miracle was to introduce the disciples to His ability, not to show off or to go public with His power (see John 2:11). So, Jesus isn’t being rude or dismissive in John 2:4. He’s politely pointing out that He follows God’s timing, not Mary’s; and that this is not His moment to be publicly revealed. Some of the respectful tone is lost in translation, perhaps, but Jesus was not being rude. www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Mary-woman.html

[@sidvicious2845]

Hi, The Mormon church claims to be the restored church of Jesus Christ, the only TRUE church! Jesus turned water into wine and gave it to wedding guests according to the NEW TESTAMENT. A Mormon who drank wine today would be unworthy to enter the Mormon Temple! Were Jesus to return today and repeated this act,; -would the Mormon leadership claim Jesus performed the act by the power of Satan? - would the Mormon leadership claim Jesus was SINFUL using the power of God to turn water into wine? -would Mormon leadership say Jesus was SINFUL giving wine to guests to drink making them unworthy to enter the Mormon Temple? -would Mormons deny Jesus access to the Mormon Temple for causing others to drink wine and thus SIN? -would the Mormon leadership deny Jesus? - would Jesus accept the Mormon church as his church, or claim they never KNEW him?

[@jlewis8145]

@@sidvicious2845 Yes.

[@sidvicious2845]

Didn't Jesus say something about "it's not what goes in a person that defiles them, but what come out from a person!" How many family members, parents, siblings have been denied access to family weddings because the Mormon leadership encourage members to be married in the temple as opposed to civil marriages first! Jesus' message was to help the sick, the poor and afflicted, the hungry and homeless, to be a servant to those who suffer! Would he look at the Mormon coffers filled with billions of US dollars and say good job boys to the Mormon Church leadership, or would he inform them "they never KNEW him?" Would Jesus accept the Mormon leadership awarding themselves with the Second Endowment, a guarantee of acceptance by God to the Celestial Kingdom, or would he refer to this as childish prattle? And of all those too fearful to proclaim "the emperor has no close!" Yes, many are called but very very very few have the courage to speak up and be counted, be chosen,... and so it continues!

[@jlewis8145]

@@sidvicious2845 Well said. God bless.

[@sidvicious2845]

Clothes not close! Nobody's perfect! LOL! No even spell check! LOL!

[@AnthonyFloresCPA]

Please try to not step over each other, interruptions, thoughts, etc.

[@conniesanchez3023]

My dad is considered a polygamist. My mother died, and my dad was remarried and my step mom had to get a temple sealing cancelation with her ex and was sealed to my dad. Also, he arranged my moms head stone with 2 additional plots for him and my step mom and they have all 3 of their names on the headstone.

[@sidvicious2845]

WOW!!!

[@kchortu]

because its all fake and bull...

[@brettbair2654]

Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God. He was able to find married women that were virgins. Can your prophet do that??

[@johnhorner1969]

If the rest of his life didn’t, the context of section 132 solidified that Joseph was a manipulative, out of control, power hungry narcissist with a god complex, a charlatan and a sexual predator. There is no other reasonable interpretation of his polygamy and the revelation he made up to try to double down on his disgusting actions and using god and prophetic power to blame god for his misdeeds.

[@mormonstories]

Amen John Horner.

[@martiwillis1848]

Yes and yes. My thoughts exactly. This isn’t scripture it’s pure B S

[@kentthalman4459]

Well said @John Horner

[@jameswalberg3265]

I think the only way to discuss the absurdities of D&C is with humor. Sandra Tanner is calming and wise. I love her insight and sincerity. A treasure for sure. Thank you Mormon Stories. You never disappoint.

[@kentthalman4459]

Totally agree. JD humor was indeed appropriate.

[@theflaterfapologist99]

It's a great thing that MS has had her on so many times. Most people won't read books anymore and this screen has become the town square. This info is on a digital record for years to come. Plus the intimacy of the MS format keeps it clear and concise. Sandra truly brings a fully auto 50cal to a butter knife fight when it comes to these conversations.

[@rachelcoates9041]

I have to say that I love Mormon Stories podcast and ALL the guests, but there is a special place in my heart for Sandra Tanner. She’s so adorable and just plain awesome. 😊

[@prettylights482]

Seriously...I've enjoyed so so many Mormon Stories episodes and guests...so many have stood out and I'll never forget them. But none of them can ever come close to Sandra Tanner's episodes! Can she please just be on the show forever?

[@s.a3099]

Right?! I love her so much. She’s such a gem.

[@1nickoala]

Thank you for bringing Sandra to MSP again I could listen to her and your team for hours and hours while doing my spring cleaning Please bring her again 💜🇨🇦

[@VictorRigoleFineArt]

This has been so informative!!!! Sandra Tanner Rocks! When I read and explained 132 to my wife it made us both ill. The lazy learners are the "active" members of the church who are clueless to things like this. Keep up the good works guys!!!! Jen is a great addition to the team!

[@bws71]

I read D&C 132 for the first time when I was in the MTC over 30 years ago. Reading it made me ill. I remember kneeling and praying at my bottom bunk in our dorm, pleading to God to help me understand how this was all ok? The destruction language aimed at Emma if she doesn't accept polygamy is seriously horrific. This was my first experience with cognitive dissonance related to my belief. Having already committed so much and being on the cusp of my mission, I just set this up as the first issue on my shelf. But that disgust never went away.

[@gigi1332]

I'm so sorry any parents put any of our children through your experience. If the leadership had just told the truth about anything we would have been such better parents. The leadership has so much crime deceit and hate and evil on their hands 💔

[@Audrey-km9in]

My heart aches for that young missionary. I have no doubt that you suffered in ways most cannot comprehend.

[@bws71]

Thank you - but I think I struggled in the same way most exmormons know all too well. Stuffing down your conscience, ignoring what you feel is wrong and trying to accept that it is actually good and right. Ironic demonstration of LDS scriptures, leaders calling good evil and evil good. Yuck, right?

[@LaurenKastenaw-ke4pq]

It's a relief to me to hear that men are disturbed and horrified by D&C 132. That is one of my dad's favorite parts of scripture, and he loves the idea of having thousands of wives and ruling over them and them being destroyed if they don't obey him. I grew up thinking all men were like that.

[@lilatueller]

I love watching John laugh at all of the absurdity here! It is actually comical how ridiculous the narcissism is displayed in this section of D&C. The only thing not funny is the pain it caused so many women

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

I was aware of D&C 132 for some time before I ever got around to really reading it with a critical eye. When I finally did, the first thing that struck me was in the very first line. According to the revelation, God (actually JS pretending to be God) is only telling JS about this stuff because JS wanted to know how having multiple wives and concubines could be "justified". In other words, it wasn't a case where JS is just going about his totally holy and wholesome prophet business while living happily as a faithful husband in a totally committed monogamous relationship with Emma and then, out of the blue, God decides to command him to start looking for other women to have relationships with. It wasn't that situation at all! As the actual text makes clear, God wasn't even inclined to say anything about "justifying" multiple wives and concubinage UNTIL Joseph Smith started begging God to tell JS that having multiple wives and concubines was actually a good thing for a rock star prophet to be pursuing. It's all there in black and white: "Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that INASMUCH AS YOU HAVE INQUIRED [i.e. "well, since you're asking...."] of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines...".

[@foxibot]

I tell you it’s like hearing the handbook for the handmaidens tale! And I feel so awful for the women that were deceived. And used for his pleasure and the other mens pleasure and power trips. If morality is part of the Bible and Christian belief why weren’t more people appalled by this back then and why aren’t they now? I am proud of all the Mormons that have the gotten the courage to look at how horrible this is. I am fond of the Mormon people, just not fond of their belief in this charlatan and narcissist Joseph Smith. And the men that followed his twisted lifestyle and God complex. So it’s good to see this movement of people questioning all these immoral and horrid beliefs. May more come and see the truth. This is not a good religion for women. It’s very harmful. And you can really see the devastation in real time and the years it has affected them on good people and their families when you watch this podcast.

[@kentthalman4459]

Exactly. John's laughing at the absurdity is just as appropriate as being angry about it and loved watching his response as well.

[@patbrain913]

Sandra is an amazing lady, she had, and still has, so much courage. Thank you all

[@amanda_weber1]

This was an incredible, informative episode. Thank you Mormon Stories team! My heart aches for Emma. Sometimes I wish the church were true just so that Emma's suffering wasn't truly in vain at the hands of a manipulator, but I can't imagine loving Heavenly Parents creating such a harsh doctrine to punish their daughter.

[@rhondadearborn3265]

Joseph Smith - I think he was probably what we would call now a narcissist and sociopath.

[@Wicket_78]

I am really enjoying the perspective Jenn brings. Being so fresh in her faith transition she has that emotional reaction still. I think she will be very approachable by many who may be doubting as she doesn't have that sharp anger that members expect Ex-Mos to have.

[@polyglot6542]

The best seminary class I have ever taken! We should have read the scriptures this way when I was attending church!

[@SmokeShadow49311]

Sandra is an absolute Legend!!

[@t.thompson9977]

Awesome episode! Sandra is a blessing Way to go guys

[@polyglot6542]

One question: JS sealed Fanny Aelger around 1933-35 ans he continue sealing over 40+ women to him and finally in 1843 he decided to get Emma sealed to him. So, technically, Fanny is the first wife under the covenant and Emma is number 40ish.. so, why does Emma Smith's statue is displayed in Salt Lake and why do they say Emma is JS's wife? Or why don't they display the 40+ wives aside Emma?

[@erin6784]

I think we know why.... Perception and PR.

[@rancierae]

Regarding the imbalance of numbers between man and women . UK Missionaries sent quite a few single women over to add to the pool . The first Arthur Conan Doyle ( sherlock holmes) novel ( A Study in Scarlet) was about single women being tricked into moving to Zion and finding that they were simply recruited to be polygamous wives

[@Lookatmedonnad]

comments about anybody finding humor - people display different emotions as they travel thru a faith crisis. Sometimes you cry and sometimes you do have to laugh at the lengths our brains bounds making this stuff seeem so normal for the people experienceing it. The father you get away from the trauma the more ready you are to see humor.

[@beboystyle620]

This really opens my eyes and gives another perspective for me. I feel like they teach and put Joseph high up on this pedestal so that you don’t look at him in a bad light. But this episode has changed things for me.

[@hbendzulla8213]

The information about the polygamy is very informing, it was and still is absolutely sickening and unbelievable to think that it was directed and given by a, or the God. Power and desire for sex went to J. S. and others head. What, a sorry bunch of …….. 😇

[@nataliemitchell9219]

Interestingly Joseph Smith gets killed off and Emma goes on to start a new religion and lives a long life.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

Apparently, just before heading out to Carthage, JS finished up a "New and Revised Lexicon" in which the term "you will be destroyed" means getting remarried and living a long and relatively peaceful life near the banks of the Mississippi and being a highly-revered elder matron of a decently sized religious community led by one of your sons....and the term "being made a ruler over many things" means having a shootout out with a mob and then suffering a fatal defenestration of sorts after involuntarily sustaining small projectile induced piercings of a certain kind. I'm sure it was a very inspired Lexicon. Too bad we can't find the original manuscript.

[@s.a3099]

Right?! The irony that Joseph is the one who got destroyed, not Emma, is rich.

[@s.a3099]

@@TEAM__POSEID0N oh this makes so much more sense. I need to get myself an inspired Mormon dictionary.

[@sidvicious2845]

I was informed Emma married a rather tough man after Joseph's death! He protected her from those who would have persecuted her for having been JS wife, but he beat her frequently! There was no escaping suffering for Emma having been married to JS!

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

@@sidvicious2845 Do you have any specific source for that? I'm sure that Lewis Bidamon was not an angel and I have read accounts that indicate that he committed adultery while married to Emma (and also in his previous marriages). I don't recall reading any accounts that claimed that he beat Emma or that he beat her frequently. The first few years following Joseph Smith's death were quite tumultuous for Emma, but according to accounts I have read she was able to return to Nauvoo and reclaim the Smith homes and Lewis Bidamon was largely instrumental in helping Emma do that. Even by their own accounts, their marriage was probably more practical than romantic. But Lewis Bidamon spoke quite fondly of Emma. Bidamon's daughter stated that when he proposed to Emma, her father told Emma: “You are alone and I am alone, let’s join together and go on in life together.” Meanwhile, it should be noted that Emma was very scrupulous and dedicated to taking care of Lucy Mack Smith for 10 years (until Lucy's death in 1856).

[@nemashaw4761]

My X`-husband, sealed to me in the Oakland Temple took a 2nd wife after our divorce. She was sealed to him. They have divorced, and he now is actively (at 76 years old) is on the hunt for a worthy woman, a 3rd to be sealed to in the Temple!!!!

[@AnthonyFloresCPA]

Love you Sandra! Thank you for sharing your knowledge and more!

[@marendameron]

One of the best episodes I’ve seen you do! Sandra Tanner is awesome and this subject is fascinating and terrible at the same time.

[@findingcraigie]

Post Mormon Sunday school, yes!!! I need a few years of this weekly to understand everything correctly.

[@Katherine-ep3ms]

The history of lying in this church has been from the beginning. It no longer shocks me that they continue to lie. Prophets have been getting away from it from the beginning 😡 We also know why Emma’s father told her he would rather bury her than she marry Joe Smith. Like my heart breaks for her and all she went through with that philandering, abusive, and low down liar. Then everything that she went through after his death!!! Like that woman had a horrible horrible life!!! 💔 Also I wonder if the “sleeping/private” offices in the temple were used for Joseph’s wedding nights. Like the reality of all of this is so disgusting.

[@gigi1332]

In the real world it's called "Fraud" so many horrific lies to their financial gain. The real truth always hidden with those they search for. They all need to be in prison for Fraud

[@karebearferguson3535]

OMG yes!!! I have been waiting forever for this!!

[@erpthompsonqueen9130]

Thank you. Watching from Alaska.

[@foxibot]

This really sounds like a version of the handmaidens tale when you think about it.

[@redleaf4902]

John's giggle fit! As a couple of people noted before me, when John gets the giggles, that is pretty funny.

[@sdfotodude]

I am so in love with Sandra. She is so wonderful.

[@moesyah]

it's stuff like D&C 132 where i wonder how people have continued to believe in this?

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

I think it's kind of like "The Emperor's New Clothes" story, especially for people who are born into it or who join for social reasons. They're told that the "scriptures" are sacred and beautiful. The constant message is that a good and righteous person will see the sacredness and beauty. A bad person or a person who is not "in tune" with god and the holy spirit, will not be able to see the sacredness and beauty. Of course nobody wants to be a bad person who "doesn't get it". At first reading, something like D&C 132 will just sound like unintelligible gibberish to anyone who isn't already well-versed in the real context and history surrounding it. At that point, it's really easy for them to just tell themselves that it must be something sacred and beautiful...and they just need to give it some time. Maybe come back to it later. Just put it on the shelf for now. Maybe they just need to keep developing their spirituality. "I'm sure the Emperor's new clothes are as beautiful as everyone keeps saying they are. I really probably need to go see if my eyeglass prescription needs to be changed. Yeah, that's probably it. These stupid eyeglasses. I hope I can get a chance to see the Emperor's new clothes again after I get new eyeglasses....".

[@newrichardjones4545]

good show! Thank you Sandra! Thank you MSP

[@leighyorgason6702]

This is a fantastic group. The analysis is detailed and accurate and so insightful. If only all Mormons could hear this. You all just keep getting better.

[@kimgoeckeritz6320]

I love this episode. The panel members are all so knowledgeable, thoughtful and mature…and still entertaining at the same time. That is such a great combination. Keep up the awesome work you guys 💛

[@MsCaterific]

💗💗💗💗love for all! Thank you for this, for today In Heavenly Mother's name Amen

[@MsCaterific]

@@China-Clay You're awesome

[@EleanorMclean-ns1yl]

The best episode of Mormon stories podcasts! Love you all. This was so informative and educational. I have read this section of DandC , so many questions and feelings towards this have now been made clearer in my mind. How can this be from a loving kind saviour towards women. As Mormons, we don’t talk about these issues. Rather pretend it is a thing of the past but it is very much believed to be our future, especially by some men in the church. It is still written down in the books we have in our homes the ones we give to our children to read and we are instructed to read daily. It’s important to understand the language that is used and meant for

[@brettbair2654]

I get a little weary of hearing JS married these girls, ladies, women. He was only married once. These relationships were anything but marriages. Sorry if that has already been pointed out. Of course, god did not marry Mary, so maybe marriage is not that important, unless it serves your purpose.

[@marionbartley214]

In regards to the comment that was made there's no marriage in heaven. Is this stated in the Bible the old or New testament in the King James version? I've never heard of this before. Could someone please clarify that?

[@weldondearing3821]

I love this program I am from Newfoundland Canada

[@mikestewart6517]

What's unbelieveable is that "The Church," given its well known readiness to secretively reform its paper trails and manufacture new scenarios of God's willingness to communicate his will would not yet have removed this blemish from its official scriptures. Peerhaps it indicates the LDS GAs faith (through experience) of their supreme control over their paying believers.

[@pjmackall]

I love Jen so much! Jen, I am with you here. These verses are still being used to hurt young women. You nailed it! xo

[@AABCO0520]

All of the sudden i imagined Joseph writing d&c 132, coming up with ideas on how he can get away with adultery.

[@postscriptive]

Deals were made by fathers, not both parents. Daughters were brokered exclusively by their fathers. Their mothers had no authority.

[@cintianascimento5963]

A true loving God doesn’t care about what happens in people’s bedroom. Adultery only matters to people directly involved in the situation.

[@sallyostling]

I learn something new every day. I just learned Emma didn't go with Brigham after Joseph's death! Strong lady!

[@timhansen234]

He is way beyond narcissistic... It's full on phycopathy....

[@leighyorgason6702]

How do Mormons reconcile all this with the fact that Jesus clearly states in the Bible that there is no marriage in Heaven? Or is that considered "not translated corrrectly?"

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

Some of the believing Mormons that I have talked with actually use this as "evidence" supporting their belief in temple work ("sealings" for the living and the dead). It goes something like this: Questioner: In the Bible, Jesus says: "For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." (Matthew 22:30), so why do Mormons place so much importance on eternal marriages? Believing Mormon (BM): Well, that's why it's so important to have the sealing work done in our temples. That's why our leaders have urged us to be diligent in making sure that the work (performing eternal "sealing" ordinances for marriages) is done here on earth, before the resurrection, for both the living and the dead (hence the big genealogical program of the LDS church). After the resurrection, it will be too late and those who did not have the work done in the temples will not be able to marry. Questioner: But what about all of the people who have died without leaving any permanent record that can ever be discovered or acted upon, no matter how much genealogical work is done to find records? And what about all the people who die young and were never married and therefore can't be the subject of posthumous marriage "sealing" ordinances in Mormon temples? BM: Oh, well...in those types of cases we're sure that God will provide other ways and opportunities for them to obtain those blessings. Questioner: I see.... So in other words all the work done in the LDS temples is just busywork because, if he wants to, Mormon God can do all the same things in a much more efficient and comprehensive way in the spirit realm without requiring faithful Mormons to go through all the motions of looking for dead people's names and pretending to give them sealing ordinances in the temple and stuff. BM: You have a very bad attitude that makes me feel like there's an evil spirit or dark force working on you.

[@thomashubal5921]

Read that title again. "Polygamy w/ Sandra Tanner." ???? No, that can't be. I do, however, really enjoy Sandra's view of these past events. Thanks again.

[@maureenj.odonnell4438]

I love apostates!

[@Moksha-Raver]

If the Saints believe Joseph could offer Celestial exaltation to all descendants of Heber C. Kimball in exchange for a teenage bride, why not accept that Joseph could forgive sins? Is one idea less heretical than the other?

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

Have they (the top authorities, including Joseph Smith) ever really developed the "doctrine" about eternal families and plural marriage to a point where it can be examined as a logical or coherent belief system in terms of understanding the details of its application in the afterlife? I mean is it set out anywhere as a system of belief that at least has some internal logic and some reasonable details as to how it's supposed to work and play out in eternity, rather than just a belief that "it will be further explained and understood after we die"? As indicated in this episode, the "doctrine" (such as it is) appears to have been developed mainly as a cover/pretext to justify Joseph Smith's philandering (philandering that was itself enabled by the willingness of members of his church to believe that he was god's special representative and spokesman on earth). It then appears that Joseph Smith extended the franchise (of "justification" for becoming adulterers and sexual predators and creating harems) to his allies (like Brigham Young, etc.), probably as a reward for loyalty and to have a secret that they all had to be bound to each other to protect. If I recall correctly, the "doctrine" never was really even officially publicly acknowledged by the leaders of the LDS Church until Brigham Young got his followers to the relative isolation of Utah in 1847 or thereabouts, where he essentially established a theocratic kingdom. A lot of Mormons I have encountered have tried on their own to provide explanations as to how the details of such relationships work in the afterlife with regard to plural marriages and "eternal families". But with regard to the details of how it all works, I can say that all I've ever gotten is a mish-mash and hodge-podge of private conjecture and opinion that is not supported by any kind of official endorsement or pronouncements of the church leaders. If the original progenitors of the "doctrine" (chiefly Joseph Smith, but also possibly including Brigham Young) had taken it seriously as doctrine and revelation, you would think that they would have been highly motivated to flesh it out with much more detailed information (in the form of revelation, real or perceived) as to how it all was supposed to work in the after life. For example, in sealings of "eternal families" it seems apparent that the "eternal family" of a woman would be her husband's extended family more than the family of her parents and siblings...and then there's the whole mess of what it would mean to be sealed to multiple families and the fact that a typical faithful Mormon would ultimately be sealed into so many different extended families that it either all merges into a "one big family" concept or becomes a meaningless mush. I guess tele-transportation powers and telepathy could make it work somehow. Anyway, it just appears that the only thing that people like JS, Heber C. Kimball and Brigham Young really cared about was that, regardless of the eternal details, God said they could have harems in the here and now...and they seemed to really like that (regardless of any fake protestations to the contrary).

[@loriburgess2664]

The Old Testament law says that the man and woman would both be put to death so I think if the man had been there in the New Testament event, Jesus would have treated him the same.

[@perrykim5]

Thanks Sandra!❤️💜❤️

[@lorineilson7529]

Great discussion. When I was a member I was made to believe that Joseph Smith will be on the right hand of God come judgement day. He is held in great esteem in the Mormon church. Now I know that is not even possible. Because he led many away from the true word of God.

[@ranicalerp7765]

Eternal lives? What does that even mean? Would Joseph be born again? How could he have more than one life?

[@MG-gl8xd]

Doesn’t Mary call herself a handmaiden of the Lord when she’s told she was going to bear Christ?

[@aw8643]

I listened to all three parts now and it is very interesting. So many thoughts and frustrations One thing that I feel like they didn’t mention that is crucial is that any time you see polygamy in the Old Testament it is never seen as part of God’s will. It is seen as not trusting God and his promises (Sarah) or assimilating to the culture around them and a distraction (David/ Solomon). No scripture indicates it was willed or desired or ordained by God in Old Testament. It makes me think about how hard it must be for ex Mormons to except Christianity at all because many Mormon teachings manipulate scripture so much outside of a historical and contextual meaning. Similar to the scripture Joseph Smith manipulates in 132 (Matthew 18:18 and Matthew 16:18) where Jesus says that his church can help administer his grace but not forgive on thier own power. One last similar thought, John was pushing on to Jesus Joseph’s attitude a bit, because they are all taught that Jesus said these things to Joseph, so it changes the context you read in to Jesus and likely requires significant rewiring. Jesus, in my mind, was the first feminist. Scripture shows his care of women and willingness to break cultural norms over and over. Nothing like Joseph.

[@lindachristie8453]

I just loved this one! Love you all but Jen and Sandra are awesome!

[@jasonjohnson2767]

Luke 16: 19 ¶ There was **a certain rich man** [priesrcrafter], which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day**: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus [humble follower of Christ], which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the [priesrcrafter’s] table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that [the humble follower of Christ] died, and was carried by the angels [Church of the Firstborn] into Abraham’s bosom: the [priesrcrafter] also died, and was buried; 23 And **in hell he [the priesrcrafter] lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom**. 24 And he cried and said, **Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.** 25 But Abraham said, **Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receiveth thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.** 26 And beside all this, between [the Church of the Firstborn] and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then [the priesrcrafter] said, **I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:** 28 **For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.** Then this exchange will play out in our day. If we won't hear the prophets and repent! Why then, would we hear the word from the resurrected being. 29 Abraham saith unto him [ priestcrafter], **They have [Joseph] and the prophets; let [the Latter-day Saints] hear them.** 30 And [the priestcrafter] said, **Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.** 31 And he said unto him, **If they hear not [Joseph Smith] and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though [Joseph Smith] rose from the dead.** “If only the [practitioner of priestcraft,] could have seen beyond the grave, he might have started praying sooner; but only in hell [will] he become a praying man.”(Hugh W. Pinnock - Beginning Again 1982)

[@ATiredMom]

It's also frustrating how he keeps using the Abraham story and totally missing that the whole point of the story was to foreshadow a Savior coming. Abraham by all indication now fully believed God would be making a great nation from Isaac - I'm sure his belief increased after his wife got pregnant at 90. So he knew God was doing something and not just actually telling him to kill his son. This is Nothing like giving into polygamy. It's such a stretch beyond the fact that it's so insulting to God and the Judeo/Christian faith.

[@EleanorMclean-ns1yl]

Thank you

[@mormonstories]

You're welcome

[@timmiller252]

I am sitting here drinking my coffee just fascinated with all this... I do have a REQUEST: Can you talk about the plural marriages and how that works in the Mormon religion. My LDS girlfriends can't really explain it to me... With divorce and death. How does it work, if the man or women has been married multiple times. How can the women be on a planet with 2 men? and where do her kids go? how many planets are up in the kingdoms? If a women was married, got a divorce and remarried, and her Ex also got remarried how does being sealed work? Seams like such a polygimist mess up in the Kingdom of planets.

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

TBH, they (the top authorities, including Joseph Smith) never really developed the "doctrine" to a point where it could even be examined as a logical or coherent belief system in terms of understanding the details of its application in the afterlife. As indicated in this episode, the "doctrine" really was developed as a cover/pretext to justify Joseph Smith's philandering--philandering that was itself enabled by the willingness of members of his church to believe that he was god's special representative and spokesman on earth. (Joseph Smith extended the franchise to his allies (like Brigham Young, etc.), probably as a reward for loyalty and to have a secret that they all had to be bound to each other to protect). It never was really even officially publicly acknowledged by the leaders until Brigham Young got his followers to the relative isolation of Utah in 1847 or thereabouts, where he essentially established a theocratic kingdom. A lot of Mormons try on their own to develop explanations as to how the details of such relationships work in the afterlife with regard to plural marriages and "eternal families". But with regard to the details of how it all works all you'll get is a mish-mash and hodge-podge of conjecture and opinion that is not endorsed or officially pronounced by the church leaders.

[@RosyJreams]

Sandra if I come by the store and visit will you give my baby a blessing? A blessing to be as brave and smart as you are 😉

[@s.a3099]

If Sandra is giving baby blessings I’m bringing mine over too 😂

[@pollyscookies9180]

HaHa!..."But it belongeth to him." - This is Geraldo's response to Jen's clarification: "Let me just say, there can be NO giving of women. You can't GIVE a woman."