Mormons Explain Ballerina Farm, Hannah Neeleman, and the Trad Wife Movement | Ep. 1926

[@orisonorchards4251]

I have eight kids. At age 19, I was earning a mechanical engineering degree and awarded a NASA internship. My husband proposed and we married quickly. He insisted we would obey the commandments and insisted it would be selfish to accept the internship and to finish my degree. I was pregnant within a few weeks. 23 homeschooling , SAHM years and eight kids later, i studied church history and realized it was based on lies and fraud. Now I feel like the church stole my life! But a few years ago I pasted on my plastic smile every morning and swallowed my discontent and claimed to love my life and the scriptures and the temple. I actually hated the scriptures and the temple, but I couldn't be honest; not even with myself. I understand everything about Hannah's story and I fully empathize. I believe that SHE believes she is happy and that she chose her life herself. I felt the same way until I ALLOWED myself to be honest with myself. It's impossible within the belief system of the cult.

[@reneenolan3163]

You can’t believe how much our stories match. I got a PhD and have never been allowed to use it! To bet I resent all this!

[@BG-ig6fd]

I’m so sorry. Not only for your loss but society loses out on so much brilliance by hindering half of the population from reaching or using their full potential.

[@DeathByFashion1]

You lost your life because of yourself. You allowed a man to tell you what to do. I hope you teach all your children to be strong and independent.

[@summerlake356]

@@orisonorchards4251 you still have your 8 kids. Without the church, you might be queen of Nasa but no kids and failed relationships. Grass greener....

[@reneenolan3163]

@@DeathByFashion1 only divorce would have changed the result! My parents were divorced and I vowed not to repeat that story! I was never taught to think for myself! I saw what I wanted to see in the women of the Mormon church. What they told me over and over again! Following then was choosing the different path from my family. Honestly, I didn’t want what I saw in my divorce mother of the 60s. There were no role models or options I believed. The church said this was the ONLY way to happiness! I drank the Koolaid and died for it!

[@kaysharogers32]

I hate that her children are part of her brand. Kids deserve privacy.

[@danielclingen34]

like the frankies!

[@bellafassbender8973]

Well the kids live with them so yeah! is not like she's filming her kids 😂 she's just cooking and and the kids are playing in the background.

[@jscire__872]

Childhood privacy should be a human right

[@bellafassbender8973]

@jscire__872 sooooo many kids on social media and in movies but you guys are coming for this family just say it YOU PEOPLE DON'T LIKE TRADWIFES AND THEIR VALUES

[@jscire__872]

@@bellafassbender8973 Please don’t be so very defensive, there’s no need though I understand the instinct. In general childhood privacy just is crucial for development, growth, messing up and learning, and being free to be silly and innocent in peace. That’s true for any us, I’m sure you agree if you think of it from a personal standpoint. Another topic entirely is how some unscrupulous influencers, celebrity tabloids, and streaming/tv/movie industry etc. exploit underage children as products and they clearly don’t provide them a safe environment to grow and learn and be human. Why would we disagree on that? We’re all not so different, even when we’re talking anonymously online ☺️

[@barbarabentley5345]

As a nurse when we ask a woman direct questions and the husband answers we suspect a level of control/abuse. We follow up by asking "are you safe" questions when the partner is not in the room. Others observed my situation as abuse well before I could see it - not physical but putting me down in subtle and not so subtle ways. There is more to caring than saying I love you.

[@TomikaKelly]

In her GRWM before the interview, Hannah stated that a journalist was coming to interview "us." It sounds like there was a misunderstanding.

[@G2Bryce]

Oh good so you are admitting to bias and prejudice in your actions as a healthcare worker. Excellent! I smell HUGE lawsuits for you and your employer coming

[@G2Bryce]

What do you do about the controlling mothers and women? What do you do about the women who falsely accuse men? What happens to you when you falsely accuse a man? You just opened yourself and your employer to massive lawsuits.

[@emilybrumbaugh7242]

Thank u

[@ssrose18]

Can't wait for the Hannah Neeleman Mormon Stories episode in like 10 years. 😂

[@catcat9582]

I find it more sad than funny

[@paulajaneabel5205]

​@@catcat9582BOTH.

[@Cocoisagordonsetter]

I just think it's problematic setting yourself up in some special way. This influencer life is particularly weird. I don't think she's trying to influence people at all. I think she's trying to cash in on a trend that is possible for pretty girls. Putting your family on display is a bad idea.

[@Starsim99]

Him giving her the egg apron is so callous that it feels like literary symbolism: he sees her as someone that’s only good for carrying eggs.

[@c471]

Carrying human eggs (making babies) and doing the farm chores. 😬

[@michiganscythian2445]

Barefoot and pregnant in the coop

[@caseyjude5472]

Riiight, omgosh, shudder!

[@xochitlkitty]

Omg! Yes!

[@peterwilliams6361]

A perfect marriage or relationship is an illusion; there's no universal playbook for making them work. What's effective for one couple may not apply to another. Nevertheless, I've come to understand that there's always a solution to be found. Half a decade ago, my wife and I faced such trials in our marriage that divorce seemed inevitable. Yet, through perseverance and determination, we navigated through the rough waters and emerged stronger, reunited, and more resilient.

[@GregMunro]

There is a lot of sense in what you just said and I hope mine works the same way too, we are currently separated but I cant live without her, I love her so much. wish I can get her back I can do anything to have her back, we have tried therapy amongst other things

[@peterwilliams6361]

Its always difficult to let someone you love go, but in my case I had the help of a spiritual adviser who saved my marriage from collapsing her name is shelly renee white..

[@GregMunro]

This is helpful, I will look her up online right now...Thanks.

[@peterwilliams6361]

You wont regret it

[@CC_Fan2024]

You did not mention happier or more fulfilled...are you just trying to survive marriage?

[@BG-ig6fd]

“Patriarchy is at its peak when women aren’t even aware they are oppressed.” Right on, Sam!

[@GCT1990]

The patriarchy doesn't exist to the extent feminism brain washed y'all into believing especially in modern society. The fact that so many women NEED to believe in the patriarchy is telling how infected women truely are, what's funny is seeing how these same women support Trans women which if the patriarchy was real, that's the greatest patriarchal win of all time lol. Stop being a victim folks, grow up

[@Brainjoy01]

is it really oppression if its makes her HAPPY?

[@annon-10]

​@@Brainjoy01 She is not the first woman to pretend to be happy with such a lifestyle. Many women who lived like her are divorced and now admit they were never happy. They were taught to defend the husband by putting on a happy front. Wait for her turn too. You will get updates about her too.

[@Brainjoy01]

@@annon-10 why do you think she’s pretending to be happy? I think she seems happier than he does. He doesn’t seem to want to film or take photos. It seems like TikTok was her idea, that oven was her idea, the damn farm was named after her. The small business is her idea. This has girl boss written all over it. I don’t think he didn’t want to take her to Greece, I think she may not understand she just became a farmer and farmers can’t take a week off. It literally would stop the entire farm if they don’t have reliable trustworthy help.

[@annon-10]

@@Brainjoy01 ok, let's see how th husband feels if he is given hammer and toolbox as gift on his birthday. I know enough farmers who travel, so good luck cooking up stories. I didn't ask you to see her current life. I will let the time speak for itself.

[@dianemelling5446]

I was raised by a traditional wife/ mom, like most people back in the 70's, and i think so many things can be tied to $$. This looks very glamorous. We had 7 kids and my dad worked 2 jobs most of the time.and we were still pretty poor He was pretty nonexistent in the "nurturing and cooking" and all of the tradional stuff and im going to say my mother was exhausted. All the time. She was not having a good time, but that was all she knew. We did not get the best version of a mom because she was in survival mode 24/7. It is heartbreaking looking back .

[@ewalala682]

I was raised by a traditional mom in the 90s, who was also not having a good time. it was kinda horrible to watch your mom be exhausted or frustrated the whole time. even tough from the outside it looked quite okay. working dad, stay at home mom, 3 kids, all educated. I also got married young and have 2 kids. However, I chose to not be exhausted all the time. The house will be messy sometimes, I have a cleaner, I will order meals sometimes instead of cooking from scratch. I feel great in general, follow my passions. My kids are happy, but my mom despises me. "That's not how a mother acts" is her mantra for me ...

[@joantrader1159]

You are describing my life. I was born in 1949. I am a quadruplet. My mother had a 6 year old girl and 4 year old boy when my sisters and I were born in Canada October 1949. She was 26 years old with 6 children 6 and under. Six years later, my sister came along. Dad worked 2 jobs to put food on the table. Mom was just plain busy and often stressed when we were young and understandably so. Money was tight and there was little time to relax. She sewed most of the clothes for all the girls out of necessity. She knit hats, scarves, mitts and socks. My parents worked extremely hard to provide for all of us. When the children were grown and out of the house, they could finally relax. I honor my parents for their sacrifice and the job they did. There was little time for them to be anything but mom and dad when raising us. I doubt most young people in the generations that followed would be able to do what their generation did.

[@mwahl1686]

Bless you for being able to see your mom in that light. 💛

[@pollysshore2539]

Hmmm. Experiences vary. The 1970s = the peak of the divorce boom. Many people were not raised in traditional households then. Gen X is known as the latchkey generation for a reason, though it wasn’t the experience of every single child. Some most definitely were SAHM but many women worked. I don’t think I knew a single person that lived in a traditional home outside of my maternal grandparents in the 1970s - 90s. That said, I live in Southern Appalachia. 20% poverty rate and a lengthy history of working women. My paternal grandmother worked. My mom started working at 14. My mom was able to take 4 years off with me in the mid 70s, at a period when my family was somewhat financially stable. She was not able to do this when my older brothers were born. She decided to change her career path at that point and took night classes. I’ve know several women that have done this. The majority of SAHM I have known have only done it for a brief period with their last child.

[@pollysshore2539]

Granted - this is an American perspective. My parents did not divorce but both worked after I turned 4 and I did the latchkey thing with my older bros, too. Some incorrectly assume that everyone came from single parent homes then. No. There was an understandable uptick in divorces when women were finally allowed to have their own bank accounts in the early 1970s. Several had to marry as a necessity prior to this. Laws and times were changing. As a result many people that experienced it did not want their children to experience the same. Also understandable to an extent, though financial realities might have other plans. Impoverished, working class and women categorically oppressed (for their sex, race, class status and more… across the board) have always done work. History was not looked at from an intersectional perspective until modern recent years. The 1980s saw small boom in upper class women going to work. It sent religious fundamentalists into a tizzy. That’s when all the panic about Satanists in daycares started. “Women were working for the first time and leaving their children with strangers.” No. The overwhelming majority of day care parents directly involved with the panic were part of traditional, religious fundamentalist families that only utilized day cares 1-2 times a week for socialization. The narrative that women at large were going to work for the first time, leaving their kids with someone else and experiencing panic, did not hold up when looked at closely. Again, a small group from particular demographics and traditional religious homes that utilized day cares 1-2 times a week. Most of the initial panic came from men. Some that felt the sky was falling and others that felt the need to scare women back into line, or “their place” if you will. The majority of the particular group of women working for the first time were Uni educated and/or from upper class families. Others had been utilizing childcare for centuries, and day cares specifically since the 1800s.

[@bethhennessy960]

😂 I crocheted an egg apron for my daughter and smaller ones for my granddaughters and gave them to them for no special reason. Can't believe this was a birthday gift for a wife!

[@lsun5322]

If she wanted one it’d be the perfect gift! But she asked for a holiday to a Greek Island, so talk about a mismatch!

[@SamanthaShelley]

For a regular income couple that sounds like a really cool gift, honestly! 😅

[@szybake9629]

I would love a crocheted apron!

[@helenr4300]

Now following that up with tickets in a pocket would have been fab (as a family with the resources to do that)

[@claudia8801]

Eh. Egg apron is a cute craft! Forgive yourself. One day THAT will be a collector's item that some lucky person will discover in a local thrift store. 😂

[@Larissa-eo3pt]

The problem with every variation of SAHM is what happens when she's not able to do it anymore? Marriages turn bad, marriages end. Children grow up and leave the home. People fall ill, their needs change. What happens when a woman who has been out of the workforce for years suddenly HAS to find a way to support herself and any dependents? Staying out of the workforce for years, for whatever reason, is a problem for anyone that doesn't have millions in a trust fund to rely upon.

[@anainesgonzalez8868]

🙌

[@VirginiaGeorge]

Children grow up and cost more and you need a second income… That’s our story. I wanted to be home with the kids. I’m grateful I was able to be with them when they were little but it does complicate finding work a decade+ later.

[@cc-hk5ih]

@@Larissa-eo3pt Amen!

[@daniellemoses3591]

And yet- none of your business. Some SAHMs really do love their life and are happy that way. I am one of them and the hate SAHMs are getting these days is ridiculous.

[@Larissa-eo3pt]

@@daniellemoses3591 well it isn't hate in this instance, it's concern.

[@Will0wFire]

This whole "trad wife" thing irritates me no end because I grew up in an environment where this was a totally normal way of living, minus the religious aspect and having all the babies: I grew up in a little Swiss mountain village in the 70/80s where the majority of inhabitants were meat and dairy farmers. I hung out with one family in particular, and it was HARD work. They didn't have the benefit of millions of dollars in the background as a safety net. They were essentially poor. The mother did all the household chores, looked after the four children, and her job was to look after the chickens and rabbits and the vegetable plot. But milking the cows was very much the husband's job. The children all went to the village school, but the boys were expected to help Dad on the farm once they had done their homework, and the girls did their bit in the home. I spent many summers on other farms in other rural areas, too, and it was unusual for me as a girl to want to work with the cattle and pigs. So, none of this is new to me. What does upset me is how the Mormon Church feels that further subjugation of women is required. The men and women had allocated jobs, but essentially, they worked together as equals. They were a team. I have many happy memories of those days, and I was very fortunate to learn many aspects of farming and how humbling it is to have very little and still have a pretty good life. Incidentally, only one son decided to carry on farming, and one daughter took on a role as a housewife. The other two have made their lives and careers outside of the community. To me, Ballerina Farm feels like a role-playing game with added abuse and manipulation by the man. It feels so fake.

[@debbiebuttars5598]

@@Will0wFire Yes. Role-playing is a perfect description. Not real at all.

[@KGee8084]

It’s especially worrisome that her name is not on the deed to the ranch.

[@miss_naomi7377]

WHAT!!!!

[@Cocoisagordonsetter]

That's a very weird decision the couple has made. I have owned a few homes with my husband. I have been to the title company to do so.

[@Cocoisagordonsetter]

@@mnp7922 Considering I'm more "trad wife" than her. I've been to the title company a few times. She has millions of followers. Millions.... She's not the trad wife who will end up with nothing unless she's really really stupid. Now, I'm not exactly going to poll my fellow Mormon trad wife friends as some things are highly personal, but we're not all dolts out here.

[@lsun5322]

It’s important to recognise this man has a BILLION dollars to his family. That’s more than some countries. It is a deliberate choice to not let Hannah have a single room for herself, or not constructing a seperate classroom for the children. As is the egg-apron rather than tickets to Greece, as a billionaire airline heir. He can get flights when he wants to coerce her into a non-consensual first “date”, but not when she asks to leave the farm.

[@Larissa-eo3pt]

The apron was a symbol as well, maybe even a cruel message to her. It's like he was saying "this is your role, this is the life you agreed to, this is all that I will allow you to aspire to. You know what you ought to aspire to? Gathering more eggs."

[@CitySlickerButtKicker]

Think about the brand, Ballerina Farm and not Ballerina's Farm. She is the livestock that he invested in and breeds her to have more helping hands on the farm like a cattle breeding more livestock to help around the farm pushing and pulling, its free labor.

[@CitySlickerButtKicker]

Think about the brand, Ballerina Farm and not Ballerina's Farm. She is the livestock that he invested in and breeds her to have more helping hands on the farm like a cattle breeding more livestock to help around the farm pushing and pulling, its free labor.

[@cc-hk5ih]

@lsun5322 As the song goes "there may be trouble ahead"....

[@unicornL]

This! I think he's scared of culture infiltrating their belief system

[@SaffronHammer]

Risks to ice baths during pregnancy: premature births, hormonal fluctuations, physical injuries, and thermorgulatory issues. "Very disciplined " in regards to keeping oneself ultra thin and fit, can also = obsessive, mentally unbalanced.

[@annagarnet1232]

I can’t imagine ice baths during pregnancy are healthy.

[@iheartwaffles91]

I'm 95% sure the way she said "disciplined" was an attempt to not say anything mean. She knows this is crazy to do. And to put it on the internet! So proudly!

[@SaffronHammer]

@@iheartwaffles91 you are likely right.

[@kattypatty8581]

What would the ice baths get her? Less swelling/puffiness?

[@Cocoisagordonsetter]

I've never heard of ice baths. Interesting.

[@44DHernandez]

OMG! Nevermo working in Utah Valley just realized why so many of my male managers have rudely interrupted me in addition to being condescending.

[@jaytee3baxter]

Yep, they get a big sense of entitlement.

[@deborahduffy99]

I definitely will not be a follower of BF. How an average family might feel that they aren’t keeping up with an ultra rich family shows how unreal an influencer’s life really is.

[@christinesbetterknitting4533]

Comparison is the thief of joy.

[@deborahduffy99]

Reminds me too that “The biggest challenge after success is shutting up about it.”

[@rebeccacall7348]

It makes me so glad I didn't grow up Mormon during these times. My parents were already so preoccupied with keeping up with the more prevalent and successful Mormon families in the community, but social media would have taken that obsession to a whole new level.

[@syliadalth]

This is so truth. I believe this is what it all comes down at the end.

[@JesusChrist-q4g]

Spirit or the world, self seeking or seeking God, pick one you carnal beasts. -Jesus Christ

[@ginabeanscope]

When I see Hanna's videos, I see myself 5 years ago. I wasn't a mother or a farmer or a gorgeous dancer, but I was in a "partnership" with my eternal companion. The most complicated thing about patriarchy is that many domestic tasks do bring satisfaction and joy. I love making sourdough, I love serving my family; I love being responsible for the safety they feel. The hardest part for me separating from the church and my eternal marriage was accepting that I was victimized by patriarchy because at every step along the path I did make a choice, and in my mind I am NOT a victim. I didn't have access to all the choices men do and that's the real injustice - it's the same for any oppressed person either by gender, race, or economic scarcity. Hannah's story just highlights it more because of the generational wealth, and her insane drive, beauty, and creativity. Think of what she could do if given full creative power, influence, and access to the purse strings - that is the true tragedy - what could be that will never become because of the cage.

[@sammc324]

The way Sam came in hard with the ballet 101 line and John just reacted so sincerely - killed me

[@MyPantsAreSassy]

I laughed so hard at this and was like- why isn’t everyone laughing at that. 😂

[@millie6129]

@@karrifohey7848 Very beginning, 1:23

[@user-zp6ky3vt7t]

I really thought she was being sincere LOL

[@ceciliabrown6341]

@@karrifohey784801:27

[@alitino7610]

She annoys the crap Out of me. I feel like she made them all uncomfortable

[@mattbrowny]

I didn't know that this was the Jet Blue Neelemans lol. I worked for them on a ranch they own and, except for the grandparents of the family, they were pretty unplesant and very entitled.

[@AlbertaIvy754]

I live in a county with many Amish families, and these really are trad wives. They don't even have electricity, and they work very hard, and they aren't on Instagram. These influencers aren't even 50s traditional (not even color TV!). They're certainly not prairie-style. They've elevated performance to a religion... a TV evangelist religion. The most signal moment in the article was when Hannah said she had medication during just one birth... and she smiled and said it was great. It was so sad. That's what made her smile... an epidural during delivery.

[@zoinks2607]

When she talks about how they have many dreams they're working on and it's having more babies and expanding the farm. it makes me cringe because it sounds like "their" unfinished dreams are just more of what he wants. These panelists put it beautifully.

[@jewelgazer]

Oh no more kids? Really???? Sigh

[@BG-ig6fd]

Isn’t there a form of mental health issue that is hoarding too many kids? I think this has been mentioned in regards to that family that has almost 20 children (the Duggars? Can’t remember their name but they had a tv show).

[@slothisasin8240]

​@@BG-ig6fd It's also physically dangerous for Hannah. She supposedly waits 9 months post birth to start again, while most women need atleast 1,5 years for the body to properly heal from pregnancy and birth.

[@cobalt1754]

@@jewelgazer If she has to lay in bed for a week to recover, maybe she needs more time before having more kids. Besides, think of the children! They deserve a good childhood, which they can only have if their mom's needs are met first.

[@jewelgazer]

@@cobalt1754 Good points! My comment was supposed to be sarcastic but it did not come across that way. Whoops!

[@candacelopez8176]

I feel this podcast was geared towards families that only included 2 active church members in the marriage. I was a convert living alone in my marriage. I did have 7 children and did everything I was taught by the church. 25 years in an extremely abusive marriage. I felt no support from the church. All of my children were raised in the faith. All have left the church and deal with extreme emotional and spiritual conflicts. I got zero support when I chose divorce and felt completely devalued as a church member.

[@cc-hk5ih]

Single non cat lady here non Mormon. Listening to this is like a kick back to Ireland in the early to mid 20th century. The Church promelgated the same ideals large families no birth control husbands king of the Castle etc. Yes there were happy families but there were lots that weren't. My family came from what was a small holding farm backround that would be the self sufficient farm that today's homesteaders etc aspire to. The difference here is tgere was no cushion of money behind it. It was a hard life for all concerned yes healthy and beautiful but extremely tough. To support a very large family was a huge commitment and my grandmother was an amazing woman who provided not only for her own 7 kids but supported extra family members. Today this farm cannot be run to support even a small family. When my mum got married as a qualified nurse she could not work in the 50s as there was a marriage ban you had to give up work when married. My Mum was a stay at home mum but was a strong woman who had her own interested went back to college and got two university diplomas when I was a teen and with my Dad ran their home as a partnership. I'm single and straight and even today despite Ireland moving to a hyper modernised society I'm still regarded as somewhat of a failure or a strange entity as I did not happen to fall into a marriage and children. I would have liked to but it didn't happen. And believe it or not I'm happy in my life. I've run by own business I've done lots of different jobs and I can follow my own path now with age and wisdom with confidence. I do feel that Hannah is playing the role very well but would she be doing so well without tge cushion of money and priviledge that let's face it she has. My grandmother wouldn't have had time to film her life be a beauty queen or dress up to milk the cows. Great discussion. cc 🇮🇪

[@pjpoet1]

She not only has the cushion of wealth and privilege, she has youth and beauty. She has it all. Right now. Once youth and beauty fade, money and privilege will still see her through. But her name must be on every document!

[@cc-hk5ih]

@pjpoet1 well said. In my country it was o lying in recent times that a the family home etc was put into joint names. Often times husbands got a dowry from wife's parents or land treated her like a slave and reaped the benefits of what was essentially her property and of course her labour as a mum and a farm hand. So this will indeed be interesting!!!!

[@Omar-kk9fp]

So the theme of magical thinking (deism), subordination of unfavored and exaltation of favored subgroups, and the inability of the participants to recognize the overall algorithm leads to this endless cycle. Perhaps if people truly understood ethology and 'the naked ape's they'd be better off, is my wish. But, there's no basis in fact for my wish considering the history of Man. So just search around for the next 'magical paradise' (religion, spirituality pursuit, wizard, healer, et al) and jump on the bandwagon!😅😂😂🎉😂🎉😂

[@jaytee3baxter]

@@Omar-kk9fp What are you trying to say?

[@slothisasin8240]

​@@pjpoet1 But her name isn't on the farm or their business. That's what concerns me.

[@rachaelnlala]

Chefs kiss with these ladies and discussion and John’s questions to gain understanding are so helpful. John’s shirt is extra snazzy today, loving it!

[@bombadillo2]

This was awesome. Great example of an episode that could have been tabloidy but instead was very thoughtful. Love you all!

[@mormonstories]

❤️🙏

[@echomikekilo63]

If he ‘lets’ her travel, she might remember who she really is and want more for herself. The egg apron says, “No. THIS is who you are now.”

[@jewelgazer]

Yes indeed! I think he feels threatened by the thought of his wife being exposed to the outside world. Yet what is even more sad to me is how they have isolated their children.

[@BG-ig6fd]

@@jewelgazerYes, he seems like he has a great need to control his family members.

[@lorawhitfield6995]

These ladies were amazing, each one of them brought their unique perspective! Thank you John for being so supportive of hearing women’s voices. Sam’s closing statement hit home. I was born and raised in the church, but starting around 18 had a very hot/cold relationship with the church, at times even leading a sort of double life. Finally during Covid I started really looking at my “shelf items” and doing research. The SEC situation pushed me over the edge. So last year, at 63 years old, I had my records removed and have not regretted it for one minute! But the part about it being harder for women when they leave I think is true. I look back on so many major decisions I made in my life that were all based on church teachings, even though in the parts of me I kept hidden I would have chosen differently. I have a wonderful life and am very happy, but I still get pissed sometimes wondering what could have been different. Love you awesome women…keep doing amazing things!

[@tinamarie9772]

My son was still in a rear facing carseat when someone at the church asked when we were having more. I didnt even know the person. My son was premature and spent the first 10 days of his life fighting just to live. The push for more kids is just disgusting. I was 22 and struggling to make ends met. Just... No. It took years and growing a backbone to finally walk away completely from the church. Its the gender roles and pigeon-holing women that i do not want for my son and definitely not for my daughter.

[@intuitiveplantscoaching]

I was in the church and also in an abusive marriage, so I know the in's and outs of abuse and what it looks like. It'd hard to detect if you haven't lived it. When you are in an abusive marriage, your spouse trains you to see the marriage a certain way. It took me YEARS to break through the cognitive dissonance and see my marriage for what it actually was. It's so very similar to the cognitive dissonance you experience leaving the church. Sometimes it's easier to live in denial, so many people do in the church. And so many people do in abusive marriages, because they are comfortable, in a weird way. The familiar is easier than the unknown. My name was also not on any of our assets. Classic move of an abuser.

[@Chococatania]

@samanthashelley - what you say at the end 3:05:00 ish is spot on. I left the Mormon church at 42. And it took me about a year after leaving to realize that I didn’t know what I wanted. … I was listening to the audiobook You Are a Badass, and she asked along the lines of “what’s in your way?” … my answer was “I don’t know.” And then I realized. I DON’T KNOW. It wasn’t a cop out. It was the fact that I had completely submitted to “the lord.” … I had put my will on “His” altar, and then I came to the realization that his altar was a fiction. I still am not sure if I have things figured out. I’m way beyond my 20s and the time people usually do figure it out. I’m just glad I got out and I got my daughters out before they were adults.

[@OKBgosh]

I'm glad you got out, too. What you went through sounds viscerally painful - please remember you are not alone in these kinds of experiences. ❤️

[@RNT-hrz11]

People never really figure it out. I'm 38, I have no kids and I don't know if I want them (nor does my husband). We've changed jobs and careers many times already, we've lived in different countries. He was raised religious, I was not. My comment goes to say, don't buy the narrative that people beyond a certain age have their lives figured out because, if people were completely honest with themselves, we would all have to accept that we have no clue what we're doing on this planet. Try to be happy and to be a good person, keep your finances as tidy as possible, and that's it. Good luck!!

[@promomail1768]

If your in bed for a week from exhaustion you might just be depressed or trying to escape.

[@kimhaas7586]

@@promomail1768 Did you see the birth story for her 8th? She doesn’t look thrilled. She looks like she’s thinking, “Great, one more kid hanging off of me.”

[@elisa-beary]

I had to wonder had Daniel taken care of the kids during some of this interview & allowed the person who was being interviewed, HER, to answer the questions… how much better would it have come out? Interesting to know that Daniel’s parents had 10 kids who his mom stayed home birthed, raised & homeschooled them all. Once the last one moved out she began working on their dream home, when it was ready David retired, DIVORCED her & moved into the home on his own. After she’d spent decades with him, giving up pursuing her own dreams & aspirations to raise all THEIR 10 kids she was left alone. It shows that no matter how much you think you’ll be together forever that even w/ the doctrine of LDS religion severely holding women down, the men can leave & be in good standing. It could be anyone with any amount of kids.

[@anainesgonzalez8868]

This is so clear and extreme in the LDS context but it happens SO much to many women all around the world. Patriarchy is si cruel 😢

[@raincadeify]

😤

[@syndira3692]

Oh my God that's horrid! It's even worse knowing he has control of the inheritance and so the kids might not want to cross him by associating with their own mother... I've seen that happen 💔 she eventually had to start all over again at the age of 55. She made a modest living through a lot of hard work.... Her 5 kids didn't lift a finger to help her 😭

[@OKBgosh]

Yikes! 😮 Do you know how his mother is doing these days? I hope she's safe and OK.

[@kimhaas7586]

Even Hannah’s follow-up video doesn’t ring true. It looks and feels like a script written by Daniel for the purpose of redeeming Daniel’s reputation. And where does the video end? In a barn turned gym with Hannah working her almost non-existent @ss off to keep in shape while he’s in the background doing pull up’s. If anything, it makes him look like even more of a jerk. Where’s her ballet barre? How can she do any center work with all that equipment in the way? There’s something about Daniel that feels like it goes beyond Mormonism. It’s a complete lack of self-awareness, like the world completely revolves around him, his wants, his accomplishments, his injured ego. I think we all know what that means. Living with him must be exhausting. I realize that the LDS church pushes men and women into these roles but I get the impression that even among Mormon men that Daniel is a bit different. We’ve seen plenty of Mormon stories and ex-mo podcasts by couples where the husband seems a lot more sensitive to his wife’s feelings. But not Daniel. This video has “fix my image, Hannah” all over it. Even her voice sounds lifeless. She can say the words, she can live the life, but I’m going to bet that in 5 years, she’s going to be on Mormon Stories Podcast. Alone.

[@CitySlickerButtKicker]

I feel like the next breaking story about her at this capacity, will be heartbreaking news and a lot of us will be shouting it out loud "Told You So and now its too late" to those who refused to see the abuse and accuse others of being jealous of her. She won't live long. Lots of women who lived like her when it was common, took risk of dying of natural childbirth each time they had more children or she will pass away from exhaustion. I hope I am wrong because I'd prefer she just left him after realizing she deserves better.

[@syndira3692]

That sounds like a regular guy raised in a very rich patriarchal family... Unfortunately I've met a lot of them lol

[@elizabethrose9364]

He is also not as “pretty” as Hannah. I am surprised actually.

[@jewelgazer]

I noticed her voice as well - so sad.

[@BG-ig6fd]

You mean he comes across as narcissistic? Maybe so.

[@exmoextra999]

One of 13 kids can confirm that parents cannot take care of this many children in all these categories..older kids will get parentifide and lose normal developmental parts of their youth..

[@jewelgazer]

Absolutely

[@OKBgosh]

And I rarely ever hear it discussed that siblings growing up in large groups quite often end up estranged with some of all of their brothers and sisters, as adults. It's not a given young siblings will like each other, and there will almost certainly be resentments when some children are parentified, while others are shamed for normal child developmental stages (e.g. a four year old who cannot prepare their own meals gets accused of stupidity or laziness by older siblings and even their parents)... And it cannot be denied that the more children in a family there are, and the less they can all be actively parented by default, serious sibling teasing, physical abuse and even sexual abuse are more likely.

[@nothing-jl2dz]

i'm a family of just 5 kids and it was a disaster even with that "few"

[@starraleta3209]

As one of thirteen children I always tell everyone I had to change my own diapers.

[@OKBgosh]

@@ah5721 I'm so sorry to hear you went through this too. As the youngest of 4, it was awful to have to go to my also-child siblings for help with things, and also to be scolded for totally normal development - except I simply wasn't growing up fast enough for parents that always treated us as little adults. I send you warm fuzzies and a knowing nod in solidarity. ✨

[@reddish22]

Sam’s acidic: “enough money for tickets to Greece”-in response to John’s point about how much money they’d have made off of this ridiculous video-was the absolute best.

[@jo.randall]

It's so spicy... Her and John have a great dynamic.

[@luedwards207]

I have to say, my parents started having children in the 50’s. They grew up in South Texas. They were raised Catholic and sent their children to Catholic school. Contraceptives were frowned upon (Bishops and Fathers of the Catholic church) they had 7 boys and 7 girls. ALL same Mom and Dad. True story. I am number 13. Growing up a BIG family I knew I didn’t want lots of children. Being a convert to the LDS church. I heard too many times in teachings to have as many children as you can. They are blessings. Well, from my experience it was not all good times in my young life. So my Mormon Husband says after my two pregnancies (I adore my two children, hands down) let’s have another child. I emphatically said absolutely not!!! Two is enough. It was A LOT to do all the things. I am super glad I didn’t adhere to those prophets (MEN)!!! 😅 I mean really!!!!

[@RyColSM]

When I was an LD nurse one of my biggest frustrations was when family members refused/ fought the mom in getting an epidural. Unless that is part of your plan and family is simply helping you keep that mindset it was so beyond frustrating.

[@claireterry1835]

It’s not really up to the woman to be a trad wife or not. First you have to meet a guy that will pay for you to be a trad wife. Being that most guys now are looking for women to pay for them , this can be an interesting challenge.

[@sherieweber6708]

Truth bomb!

[@lunanera8621]

The answer always seems to be: are you depressed?... have you tried not being depressed?

[@kimberlycoldren4237]

It's interesting that the brand is titled ballerina, but she is no longer a ballerina. She hasn't been a ballerina in several years. From the few clips I've seen there is no dancing content or merch. She doesn't even have a studio. She gave up that title to raise a family on a farm, and that is what they are promoting.

[@BG-ig6fd]

It’s almost as if she is still clinging to her previous identity. Sad.

[@stephanie1044]

To me this seems like a deliberately cruel constant reminder of everything she has lost.

[@SaffronHammer]

They are playing at farming. They have millions $ and have plenty of hired help. She is playing a Homemaker, when indeed she is running a business and company in the larger world outside of her home. It is disingenuous, and misleading, propaganda.

[@elizabethrose9364]

When they gave a Christmas dinner for employees, the place was packed.

[@jewelgazer]

I agree 💯

[@brooke_reiverrose2949]

A+ Great panelists; John, fantastic as always ❤❤

[@mormonstories]

Yay!!!

[@SaffronHammer]

The interview in the Times actually makes me have more compassion and empathy for Hannah--but dislike her husband even more.

[@DuchessChau]

I saw that video where she wanted to go to greece, and was loud about it...and her husband got her an egg apron and told her your welcome before she said thank you.

[@patriciafinn5717]

How does each child get enough attention??? Its not possible...also they are monetising their children.. Sad..😢😢😢

[@syndira3692]

They don't. In these large families, the older children are parentified. And no one gets enough attention.

[@elisa-beary]

I’ve been super excited since I clicked notify for upload. I think this is a perfect story to discuss SO many systemic, religious & specifically LDS issues. The article was flawlessly written. The way the journalist illustrated what she witnessed without ever outright saying her thoughts in most cases was smart & we need more journalism like this!!!💜

[@rachellerockel]

Flawlessly written

[@kimberlycoldren4237]

I was annoyed by her hubby forcing himself in the interview. But as a non-Morman, I didn't realize the underlying flattery from her to her husband. It wasn't until listening to these broadcasts that I understood this underbelly. This also brought me to appreciate the writer and the exposed nuisance.

[@OKBgosh]

I hate that people are spreading a rumor that the journalist "recanted her article" - no she did not. But clearly this is all really getting to some people. Their defensiveness and lying is really telling...

[@johnp.1460]

Excellent video! Please keep doing more of these. I came into this cold, not knowing who these people were or what they were about. The dynamic that the British journalist uncovered left me with a terrifying sense of déjà vu as I have seen this pattern play out in so many Mormon relationships throughout my life. This fits a very insidious, destructive patriarchal pattern that, frankly, harms both men and women - but hurts women far more. To me, however, the most tender victims are the children as they see their parents play out these pernicious, prescribed roles that leave their mother thoroughly exhausted - with her dreams diminished, and their father in ultimate control.

[@gtaylor6937]

Yes this pattern is very concerning. Psychologists have noted that one of men's most potent fears is being ridiculed by women, while women's worst fear is being killed or their children killed by their male partner. These patriarchal religions and their doctrines so clearly reflect these primal fears in how they dictate the roles of the sexes. Women must submit to men, and their life choices limited to such a degree that if they try to leave, they face destitution and ruin. It's amazing to me that after all the generations that our female ancestors found this out the hard way, so many women today still buy into the fairy tale this couple is selling.

[@BG-ig6fd]

@@gtaylor6937Yes, it is frustrating. But consider the amount of indoctrination.

[@liseklerekoper2441]

I’m so glad that you’re doing such a deep dive on this and organizing it the way that you are, but I just have one piece of constructive criticism. Jordan & McKay did an incredible job on 2 videos on Ballerina Farm & the trad wife trend, & BY FAR, their videos, particularly the second one after the Times article came out, have been the most comprehensive & spot on to date. I think it would be nice if you gave them credit as well as they were early on this & Jordan’s insight as an exMo & therapist made the video the best of all I’ve watched so far. Sam’s channel also did a great job on their Ballerina Farm critique. However, Jordan & McKay’s were twice as long & a deeper dive. Love both their channels & Mormon Stories.

[@mormonstories]

I didn’t watch but will check it out!!!

[@michellejclyde]

Hannah's family lived in my neighborhood/ward and Hannah did a dance number and a speech at my girl's camp as like a keynote speaker. I remember her talking about how she stayed faithful even though she was living in New York City at the time (The land of sin! gasp!) It's so bizarre seeing all of this stuff coming out now.

[@jewelgazer]

When women say that having a fulfilling career outside the home is awesome because her children have a great nanny, I have to admit that I feel jealous! That was never an option for me because we could not afford one and there was also no extended family nearby to lean on. I was not able to return to my career until years later because of this. It is most definitely a privilege to have the opportunity to afford hiring a nanny!

[@Will0wFire]

Sorry for adding another comment, but there was a sentence from John made that just made me stop in my tracks: "it's in the churches' interest in its members having more babies." It just jarred me so much because, in my view, a church is supposed to provide a service to its congregation, to help them get through life as best possible. Instead, here we are looking at what is best for the church, not its members. Thats really really dark.

[@jaytee3baxter]

The members serve the church, not the other way around, in Mormonism.

[@linahrae]

she calls herself a “business woman” at the end. umm her name not even on the business 😐 just daniel’s name 🙄

[@meiimacca4054]

He'll drop her like his dad dropped his mom, no doubt.

[@CitySlickerButtKicker]

​Curious, did Daniel's mom ever get anything from the divorce... receive any payouts because what his dad did or didnt do during divorce will reflect in his sons own divorce when it happens. @meiimacca4054

[@yn.hn2020]

​@@meiimacca4054 what about the dad?

[@yn.hn2020]

How u know this? Lol just need to know

[@claren4643]

You know, I'm an older woman, and while raising children I worked an unconventional schedule, which allowed me to meet women who were full time at home and women who worked more conventionally full-time during that time. And I did (still sometimes do) experience this situation in which women demonized the other choice, almost as if to justify their own. It did make me sad, as we should be supporting one another. It hasn't happened in quite the same way with my close friends, who are married/unmarried/parents/not/straight/queer, but... i do experience that it still happens.

[@ggr9068]

Oh man this guy. A freaking billionaire and he gets her an egg apron? 😑

[@Cel_566]

Heartbreaking 💔not because of the apron but because it shows that he doesn’t see or hear her true desires

[@Larissa-eo3pt]

@@Cel_566 To me it came off like he sees her true desires and he's firmly telling her no, and reminding her of her place.

[@Cel_566]

@@Larissa-eo3pt worse!

[@cmr4622]

He is not a billionaire but point taken

[@jaytee3baxter]

His DAD is the billionaire, though I'm sure he probably has some access to family money. After all, they bought a farm.

[@micheleaustin794]

Mormon's version of the Duggars....we all know how that story ended.😳

[@zachbills8112]

They're much more sophisticated and worldly than the Duggars are.

[@Desertsilence]

I appreciate Celeste’s viewpoint because that is my experience as well. At one time I’d have claimed all of the things that Hannah is claiming. Fast forward a decade and I’m a completely different person with different views and ideals. Sadly, it’s the children who are paying such a high price. Eight kids? I saw the older ones pushing the younger one in a stroller. How much of their lives are under oppression as well? I can’t wait until Hannah’s perimenopause hormones start flowing. She’ll wake up and hey howdy, things are going to change. I don’t see ANY way she’ll still be a “Mormon trad wife” in 15 years. But, I’m willing to be wrong.

[@hnikkig4811]

Wife #19 was the book that did it in for me. I always knew I hated B Young but I didn't understand how much until this book. HIGHLY RECOMMEND

[@Cel_566]

Statistically likely to have at least one LGBT+ kiddo

[@jaytee3baxter]

Good luck to that kid!

[@user-zp6ky3vt7t]

HOW IS LDS CHURCH EVEN LEGAL????

[@delsings]

In my opinion the phrase "I'm waiting for God to tell me to stop" [having babies], is just them saying "I'm waiting for menopause". And that's no way to be forced to live.

[@mormonstories]

Amen

[@stephanie1044]

Oh no. That is horrible!

[@SaffronHammer]

Cosplaying a Simple Life.

[@xochitlkitty]

@2:02 it’s so creepy how he stalked her and just overrode her boundaries without giving it a second thought; as if he doesn’t hear her. It’s very creepy and controlling. I’m starting to have a different opinion of Hannah. It feels like spiritual coercion.

[@stephanie1044]

Working with women who have survived domestic violence, it is striking how many have a strong initial reaction against the perpetrator when they first meet him. Their attempts to reject him are eventually overcome by his persistence (backed up by cultural norms about this), but they instinctively knew at the beginning he was dangerous.

[@jessyocom2910]

I so appreciate Sam's sarcasm and levity. I'm so glad she was on this panel ❤️

[@brooke_reiverrose2949]

+1. We needed some jokes

[@PARebecca]

I believe that Hannah believes she is fulfilled, and most days she believes she is fulfilled. I hope Hannah is putting some money away for herself, for when she realizes she is no longer fulfilled and wants to find her fulfillment in a different place and time.

[@johnq3676]

I really wanna Compliment Julia on the Preparation and Management of this difficult Conversation.

[@nikikangas439]

Regarding the quote about waiting for God to tell her when to stop having babies: maybe I'm reading too much into it - but doesn't that sort of imply that she wants to be done? Why ask for something unless you sort of want it? Like, "I think I'm done having babies. What do you think God?" *crickets* "ok, I guess I have to keep going 🤷‍♀️" Totally ignoring her internal voice.

[@iamjustsaying1]

Excellent episode! This insightful panel gets what it is to be a mormon woman living in a patriarchal structure. I'm very glad that the past GAs' statements about a woman's role were included. Without that context, it might not be believed that these things are really what lds women have been taught. With that in mind, an older woman, who has heard and lived during those times of even greater oppression, should be considered as a panelist.

[@Atalinay]

02:21:23 Wow Sam makes a great point. Its like he's cosplaying or larping being a self-made man. Probably also acting out his daddy issues and forcing his family into it

[@mikeoyler2983]

I don't think Ballerina Farm understands the difference between an ad hominem attack and criticism. Admittedly, it is difficult to to be precise when somebody's work is about promoting their own individual lifestyle for others such as Ballerina Farm. Nevertheless, that journalist went into their home and simply did not see things the way that Ballerina Farm presents them. I am glad that objectivity in journalism still exists. Journalists are not there to sing praises of others. They are trying to establish objectivity. If you want a Sunday school devotional, where praises are sung and nothing is questioned, then go to church.

[@Larissa-eo3pt]

I wish this discussion could've focused more on how LDS women's choices are not really their choices. And how invested the leadership and membership of the church are in obfuscating that fact. They don't want to be seen as oppressive to women but that doesn't stop them from still being oppressive to women. They simply adjust the messaging and find ways to phrase explanations for everything, all to hide what they really are very strongly invested in teaching girls and women to internalize. Girls and women in the church do not have freedom, not really. It isn't freedom when the choices available are that limited and where the "right answer" has been drilled into their brain for their entire life. They've been taught that their eternal life depends on choosing it and forgetting themselves. They've been taught that they're lazy, ungrateful, disobedient, and unworthy if they don't. Also I wish there was more discussion about the effect this will have on Hannah's children. Hannah's lack of available choices, her lack of freedom and autonomy in her own life is bad enough. But there's little chance that those kids aren't being emotionally neglected, at best. They didn't choose the life they're living. They deserve better, and I say that while knowing that they're growing up in a wealthy family. Parents simply cannot and they DO NOT actually meet the needs of all their children equally when they have three kids, never mind eight.

[@anainesgonzalez8868]

👏

[@SamanthaShelley]

Wasn’t that what the bulk of the episode was about…?

[@Larissa-eo3pt]

@@SamanthaShelley I made this comment at about the 2 hour mark. Within 15 minutes it had been addressed and it was the subject of the rest of it. Prior to that it was mostly about what trad wives are, whether Hannah really is one, and statements from the leadership but without the needed context that these aren't just things that old people in suits are saying, they're things that are truly believed and enforced in both subtle and overt ways, including the ways that women enforce them on themselves.

[@SamanthaShelley]

@@Larissa-eo3ptGotcha! Glad we could get there eventually haha

[@Larissa-eo3pt]

@@SamanthaShelley And boy did you ever! Everyone came out swinging with the hard-hitting observations there at the end. All insightful as hell and not pulling any punches when it came to placing blame where it belongs, on the system. Bravo!

[@RWSProductions55]

Ummmmm....why is it OK to wear a strapless dress in front of millions of people, and NOT one that is Temple Garment compatible? Garments are supposed to be worn day and night? It seems no one addresses this, like "Ohhh it is OK for certain people to do this" -- it seems like a serious double standard to me.

[@jewelgazer]

Haha! I did not notice!! Thanks for pointing it out. :)

[@enikodeak5304]

First thing I tought….hahaha ,all the shoulders showing,yay

[@mwahl1686]

Same for the male U.S. basketball player who is at the Olympics. Surprised he didn't ask for an alternative uniform.

[@kirsten1339]

This is the most Mormon comment and concern that I've read so far. Brought me right back to my time living in Utah- which was over 20 years ago.

[@OKBgosh]

​@@kirsten1339I have a question you may be able to answer: I heard in Utah you can buy temple garments at mall stores in some places, but you somehow need to prove you are Mormon to be able to shop in that section. Do you know if this is true?? Please forgive my ignorance, I didn't get very far in my consideration of converting - I met some very convincing missionaries.

[@caseyjude5472]

Thank you! This was such a great panel, I really really enjoyed it. John’s skill & experience really shone through- steering but not dominating, eliciting deep responses & moving the discussion at a good pace. I watched it here and then listened to it a second time in the car.

[@mormonstories]

Glad you enjoyed it!

[@julialaird3881]

These panelists are perfect.

[@mellisagreen7801]

If my husband gave me an apron for my birthday I would burn it immediately. An apron is not a birthday gift. It is an insult.

[@lucileverest1718]

What a great episode. These 4 ladies are intelligent, well spoken, bright etc. Sam, you as a British woman,(I am Dutch) I totally resonate to your explanation how Europe has a complete different view on 'the Mormon case'. You are so eloquent ❤

[@lsun5322]

Current policy in the Bishops handbook says the bishop should be involved in decisions are vasectomy and other permanent birth control. That still sets the tone!

[@Larissa-eo3pt]

Yeah, BIG yikes.

[@BG-ig6fd]

Classic: bishops all up in people’s business, that is absolutely none of their da**ed business! This stuff is what cults are made of.

[@xochitlkitty]

@2:10- it seems to me that he is being deliberately cruel. This is one more way he solidifies his control over her. I’m also a dancer. Dancing is one way we express ourselves. To cut her off from that is to silence her which also gives him more control. It’s maddening and heartbreaking.

[@lyndachele]

NevMor, my mother said I came out of the womb marching to the sound of my own drum and never quit. I can't imagine deferring to someone less intelligent than me. My mother was a SAHM. My dad died in 1983 and she lived until 2016. My better off siblings (females) had to support her because even an estate of $1M would not have lasted that long.

[@karakeatley9510]

I just have to add about the beautifying comment, the plastic surgery in UT is crazy too. In one Orem ward my neighbor referred to the "boobs and boats" crowd in our ward, because of the families that had enough money to buy boobs and boats!

[@jaytee3baxter]

See Real Housewives of Salt Lake City for more examples!

[@brandeberryb84]

Completely agree with Sam. He is trying to compete with his dad, but I didn’t even think of that. That is its own is a spiral. It isn’t possible to make more than his dad. His ego might be hurt but what they as a couple do truly doesn’t matter. The egg apron was hate watch. They knew it would hit…. As far as we know it’s all fake. The more we focus on the people around us and not watch anything on our phones, or social media at all. We will be so strong.

[@gacktist00]

so he can be a rich farmer because of his rich father, and he wants to compete with his dad? wow. his ego might be bigger than Elon Musk😂

[@kathleenrae1688]

“Look at our blazers” Hahahaha. Oh my that had me rolling. At the 1 hour mark and this is so interesting! Thank you for this discussion.

[@abigailkarr1662]

Such an interesting point about switching to second person to create distance! I’m going to remember that. 🤓

[@nettejoost227]

Indeed. It’s ubiquitous once we are looking for it. You find yourself doing it when you’re uncomfortable with exposure, and I see other people doing it too. 😉

[@abigailkarr1662]

@@nettejoost227 🤣 I see what you did there…but it’s accurate!

[@With_a_Grain_of_Salt]

In regards to the story at around one hour-how can everything be the women’s fault if they have none of the power? The men make the decisions and shift the responsibility to others.

[@satutoivonen9679]

As to what "trad wife" means -and doesn't mean. I've thought about it in reflection to my own life experiences as so: I've lived most of my life in a European capital city and I consider my upbringing somewhat feminist. Both parents worked and my mom is university educated while my dad isn't. My mom called the shots in my family for sure. 😃When I was 16 I did a foreign exchange to Canada where I lived a year on a dairy farm. The father of the family took care of the farm and the mother took care of the kids and the home and cooked the most amazing meals. Certainly a culture shock. 😂 BUT. There was no clash in values. No trad wives in sight. The division of labour in that household was as traditional as it gets but the mother of the family most certainly did not serve or "harken" (🤮) to the father. Quite the contrary. She was the stronger willed, more independent minded of the two and -even if she didn't say it- a bit of a feminist. She was fully aware that it wasn't her own _free_ choice to be a farm wife as opposed to an RN (which was her education) in Toronto (where she was originally from), but it had much to do with social structure. My take on "trad wife" is that it isn't a lifestyle at all and most certainly has nothing to do with the division of labour in the household. It's an aestheticization and romantization of conservative patriarcal values.

[@mipsan]

Trad wifes is an instagram esthetic for rich people and a fantasy.

[@karenili3196]

What upsets us the most? UGH? She doesn’t need to ask him…..she can have her own view! That is a red flag!

[@andradanielleparrott]

I appreciate hearing yhem talk about how a life of struggle is glorified. I grew up in the SBC in AL. It was definitely instilled in me that a life of struggle was more noble and Christ-like. It wasn't until this year, in my 40s as I deconstruct, that it hit me that I just don't have to struggle so much. There is no moral superiority in doing things the hard way for the sake of noble struggle. It was very freeing.

[@sherieweber6708]

I’m sure that was most definitely mentally freeing! I hear you on that..

[@edl6398]

It doesn’t matter what Nara Smith actually believes because what she is selling is damaging to women and misogynistic. Maybe you can see it more intellectually than most of her followers do and not take it seriously but it affects her viewers, particularly those who are experiencing the messy difficulties of motherhood and feeling guilty for not being good enough. This is the age-old propaganda pressure that advertising used on women in the 50’s but now it’s through social media. I resent the female influencers who profit from invoking pressure and guilt into already over-worked mothers. Their videos are impossible to implement and absurd but people believe them. Don’t dismiss the damage they do.

[@llars1559]

Don't women have any agency?

[@edl6398]

@@llars1559 Yes. Billions of us do. That’s why we fight this patriarchal BS fed to women.

[@nicoleharalson4929]

I wish I had heard women discuss these things as a teenager candidly. Instead of the yw lessons I got. 😥

[@megandickson4102]

Two things can be true. She can grieve for a life no longer accessible to her by her sacrifices. But she can also dive deep into a life she finds her self in and love it's adventure for herself. We also just need to trust they will find the right balance for them. This episode resonates well with me in my deconstruction. I'd love to see more focus on how we can repair while in a marriage and all the changes to the dynamics while walking that journey.

[@sweetiexoxo8670]

She must have a hell of a lot of help from family and nannies. I can barely get anything done with an 11 month old!

[@claireterry1835]

No. Hubby does not want help. She does it herself. Hence why he said she sometimes spends a week in bed exhausted. No nannies involved.

[@OKBgosh]

​@@claireterry1835so then who cares for the children and attends to everything else while she's (understandably!) exhausted in bed?

[@mozak121]

Aparently they do hire ppl to clean and work on the farm but not nannies 🤷‍♀️ I also wonder who takes care of the kids when she’s in bed

[@hanatemonstas4485]

@@mozak121 Usually, parentification of the oldest children. See Duggars and other media SAHM influencers with 5+ children.

[@jaytee3baxter]

@@mozak121 The older kids. Especially girls, I'd bet.

[@SandiNurnberger]

Thank you for this episode. I really enjoyed hearing from some really intelligent young women speaking on this topic. I realized my mom was an original trad wife. I grew up on the prairie and she worked as hard as my dad. I honestly wonder how happy she was.

[@SaffronHammer]

Hard on Systems; Gentle on Individuals

[@Beachedwhales237]

My thoughts on the equality bit. The change in doctrine is basically like “My husband tells me i’m equal, so I am” but there are no fruits of it.

[@xochitlkitty]

@2:35- she’s telling it like she saw it- fact- he kept interrupting her and even correcting her. Fact: the kids interrupted. I think she was treating them with kid gloves, and while I feel the situation deserves a more direct analysis of the power dynamic and how he silences her; it is probably better the reporter held back so that her message is not completely dismissed.

[@BG-ig6fd]

Fantastic episode! Thanks to all. Love the insight from intelligent ex-mo women. They are more aware than many never-mo women. And John is always insightful. Great job, everyone!

[@funkym0nks519]

I was just thinking how cute it would be if he put the freaking tickets to Greece in the freaking egg apron! It’s the least you could do dude!!! Edit to add that he could print out the individual tickets for their fifty kids and put each individual one in the little egg pouches! How am I coming up with a better birthday idea for a woman I don’t know???

[@OKBgosh]

This is all adorable! But to answer your question in all seriousness - he made a point to *not* give her the gift he very much knew she wanted. Dude's a sadist.

[@funkym0nks519]

@@OKBgosh I know, I’m operating from the idea that he cares about her which is all wrong of course 😭

[@brandeberryb84]

Love all your content as always. As someone who did not know she was Lds only after I learned how to make my own mozzarella balls, bread, and many other things.. I like to watch to learn, as well as learn a simpler way of life. When I saw they had a pig farm I no longer watched because I don’t agree with it. I still enjoy some of her content. I think her purpose is honest. She cooks healthy things for her children. We have the choice to receive that or not. Are the articles about them problematic YES! Was that something they had control of NO! I think we should just all enjoy this family. Or don’t. People have many different ways of living. We should accept it and move on.

[@Alnava-ml3wn]

Never heard of BALLERINA FARM before this. Samantha came out punching. Good panel with thoughtful commentary.

[@beckygee1233]

Regarding the Homestead Movement, it takes a lot of city money to support this country life. It also takes employees when it is scaled up. I hope they are honest about the time, sweat, and money it takes to live this “romantic” life that many people are misled to believe is possible.

[@luedwards207]

Wow!!! I must be living under a rock. I’ve never heard of this family. It’s interesting!!! Thanks for talking about this ❤️