Destiny 2 Lore - Clovis Bray created the first Exos, but also got them killed. This is how.

[@Spike2276]

"I'm going to try to get the videos on the journals out before Beyond Light launches" Byf has now figured out Vex time travel technology

[@Matthias-pj6th]

In all likelyhood this was recorded when Byf was doing all the other Clovis Bray lore (During the tail end of Shadowkeep) and simply wasn't uploaded at the time for whatever reason.

[@InsomniacStephens141]

@@Matthias-pj6th even though he makes direct references to content only revealed this season

[@BasicBraining]

Prolly meant to say Lightfall. I do that a lot too

[@beninmalgaard9836]

I remember a time when I didn't think much of the name Clovis Bray. A brilliant scientist behind the Warminds, the facilities on Eupora and Mars, and the creator of the Exos. Then Beyond Light dropped, and we got huge lore reveals, as well as the story from this season. It's impossible to now think of Clovis without thinking of a egomaniacal mad scientist with a real twisted view of saving humanity. "You now face god-like judgement. May it extend eternally."

[@Matthias-pj6th]

Clovis Bray only cared about humanity as a "Narcissistic Supply" (A psychology term used to describe people that a Narcissistic Sociopath keeps around purely to reinforce their own overbloated opinion of themselves), nothing more.

[@Dr.Awes0me]

And his connection to Banshee-44

[@MunkyX12]

i was the same, i commented on another video saying that clovis bray or anything linked with bray to me, just playing the game not reading the lore, was just places to go on mars and stuff and now this whole rabbit hole has come to light and its great

[@VayaKahvi]

I originally thought Clovis Bray was in reference to two people having made the corporation, when I learned it was both parts of one person's name I was like "Wow, vanity much."

[@FriezaReturns00001]

You know in some ways Clovis is more closer to the character Anton Chigurh Javier Bardem portraited in No Country for Old Men. Where, his moral compass exists outside of the boundaries of concepts such as things we know i.e. choosing options to distance himself (Clovis in this sense) away from humanity. I'll just quote this from the video: "...he positions himself outside the collective nature that begs for mercy when facing death". (For Clovice this is disregarding such a concept during those cold/heartless experiments). kzbin.info/www/bejne/i4qzdWZ5mZ2Jfrc It isn't that similar in the sense of a coin flip mentality of moral obligation (sociopathic, other voices in your head) versus a scientific research obligations (megalomaniac in comics, etc..) that is willing to go above and beyond "normal" means but in the sense of that Clovis in this case finds: emotions, music, art, things we value to him, are not required or finds it I guess confusing to cling to such things still. (at least how he sees those things are irrelevant in one of Byf's prior videos). Clovis believes that any results of research far outweight death in pretty much any case, it's non-negotiable. QED, Anton and Clovis align in my eyes since they are choosing to take out the nature of the human concepts, they are both out of touch invidiuals with their own messed up compasses.

[@cosmiclikesminecraft]

“i have decided to hate her” this one line from Clovis is so interesting. It’s such an odd way of phrasing that but so very Clovis in how he does it. Not “I have realized I hate her” or “I hate her from this moment forward” he DECIDED to hate her

[@taylorstratford9717]

Could be along the lines he "decided" because she poked at his Pride being the reason why someone he found Mildly Decent died.

[@timcal2136]

reminds me a lot of Sheldon from Big Bang Theory

[@taylorstratford9717]

@@timcal2136 Why are ALL Scientists in fiction being compared to that Autistic Shit of a Character?

[@cosmiclikesminecraft]

@@taylorstratford9717 oh that’s totally why. I wasn’t criticizing the line. It just perfectly fits with Clovis’ very clinical view of things

[@theredgamer211]

It seems almost immature or childish

[@Saint_Wolf_]

Clovis Bray be like "Ana, Ana, over here! I turned myself into an engram! I'm Engram Clovis!"

[@MynameisByf]

… Funniest shit I’ve ever seen Red…

[@Saint_Wolf_]

@@MynameisByf I'll take a screenshots of you replying to this and frame it on vacuum sealed bulletproof frame.

[@kingofspades76]

Take my like and leave

[@andreproudian7032]

Truly the payoff from that joke was worth it.

[@Ph0enix7373]

It would be cool if bungie did a show where each episode surrounded a lore entry, like on episode could be about how rhulk became the first deciple, and another could be about the creation of the exos, and the the books of sorrow and so on. It would be a very successful show

[@platinumbproductions8108]

Would be so cool, I’d love to see a episode on oryx savathun and xivu arrath and their beginnings on fundament

[@AutiCyrptArch]

Episode name suggestions: The Gardender and The Winnower - "A New Game" Clovis and the Exos - "Genius" Rhulk - "Drowning"

[@thisgoddamusernamestoodamnlong]

@@AutiCyrptArch Shin Malphur's story: For Every Thorn a Rose

[@MrNoble1997]

Do you mean anthology?

[@Ph0enix7373]

@@MrNoble1997 it wouldn’t be an anthology because it would be based off of established lore, the black mirror part is more of each episode is a different story, not an anthology

[@sdstewart87]

Can we all just appreciate just HOW AWESOME IT WAS to have the genius that is Stephen Fry doing work on something like Destiny.... Just brilliant. I somehow avoided all the footage and spoilers the first time through and was buzzing when I first heard him in the game

[@Asturjgm]

Destiny always had great voice talent, the moment I recognized Shoreh Aghdashloo as Lakshmi-2 I was so happy and her performance was great, you get to hate her just by her inflexion. But also the "not famous" voice actors are great, like Saint and Clovis have the same voice actor, which makes some of this season interactions really funny but is also some great work on his part

[@renasauceman]

It literally could have been anybody. Just sounds like old science guy.

[@puddi_Cat]

@@Asturjgm another good one is that Caiatl & Holliday are also the same VA, which was IMO hilarious to find out during season of chosen

[@sdstewart87]

@@renasauceman wrong

[@sdstewart87]

@@Asturjgm I recognised her too. Hadn't long rewatched Bones and seen her in a few episodes of that right before Destiny lol

[@inquisitorichijou883]

I don't think that Clovis knew about the different versions of Maya Sundaresh and unknowingly encountered different Mayas.

[@tw1n5nak39]

@BigHead LilDude I believe some versions of her did escape their vex made prison with the assistance of Rasputin, the card where versions of herself that escaped the vex network did so by contacting Rasputin from within the network through some method, there’s a reference to the escape at the end of the insight terminus strike where one version of the ending message will include someone using the sundaresh suffix having accessed the information the vex had on the psion prediction engine (can’t remember the name, might’ve been oxa) this basically means that after their escape from the prison like section of the vex network, maya and the other researchers stared accessing information that the vex had.

[@inquisitorichijou883]

@@tw1n5nak39 As far as I know, Maya and her team found out the Vex created simulated versions of them and helped with their escape from the simulation. And the dialogue at the end of Insight Terminus says that someone with the signature MSund12 (Maya Sundaresh 12) accessed info about the OXA Machine centuries before we killed Kargen there.

[@jackgammon1490]

I don't think he figures out about the Vex copies of Maya until Entry 12 in the logbook when he's... well, you know....

[@fallentitan9811]

Clovis is legitimately so evil, I’m actually certain Oryx is a better father then him. And maybe even just a less evil person in general.

[@12SlimJims]

Really, Oryx and his family cause whole species to go extinct. Basically universal Holocaust genocides.

[@outbreakperfected5704]

You’re not wrong cause while what oryx did was evil it wasn’t driven by emotion it was “logical”

[@maskguyfromsailormoon]

Holy shit 😂

[@cpaul562]

When you’re more evil than the guy who kills galaxies.

[@12345abxdefghijk]

Finally, some credit

[@DCJMS]

my favourite thing about Clovis is that shows that The Traveller didn't change humanity in the Golden Age just gave us inspiration & terraformed planets

[@25290117]

Well, the lifespan tripled, so there's that

[@peteraustin9057]

The golden age is where most human conflict subsided and we got pretty close to a utopia, but clovis proves that while some people act immorally due to their circumstances/environment, others are simply pure evil by nature

[@63Limar]

@@peteraustin9057 well, "by nature" is wrong, more like "as a result of their upbringing/environment".

[@eotwkdp]

@@63Limaroh no some people are actually born to be asshole to rest of the whole. I mean like intolerable in sense. I believe both are true but being born to be something is extremely rare barring missing genetic codes or just cells not being healthy enough in critical parts of the mind

[@63Limar]

@@eotwkdp I guess in that sense yes, there may be some genetic abnormalities.

[@samvimes9510]

21:14 I would _love_ if you could go into Marathon lore at some point. Bungie threw references into Halo, but Destiny seems to have an even greater connection. The MIDA Multi-Tool is said to be from another timeline created by the MIDA rebel group, but the MIDA Mini-Tool directly links the two franchises together. Not only does the Mini-Tool's lore entry mention MIDA again (the revolutionary force that overthrew Mars) and battleroids (cyborgs created from the bodies of deceased soldiers), but it directly names Bernard Strauss, the scientist responsible for causing Durandal's rampancy. There are other smaller references (such as Cayde mentioning Pathways into Darkness), but I am fully convinced that Destiny takes place in one of the many alternate timelines of the Marathon universe.

[@TheVet3ran]

Marathon lore from Byf would be absolutely incredible. Marathon lore is, in my opinion, just as insane and incredible as destiny lore is, with connections between the games enough to drive one mad, even though they are not canonically linked. Descend into darkness, Byf! Do some marathon stuff!

[@owentravis9520]

Another thing to note - when the second half of Clovis' journal was unlocked, it was posted to Bungie's main page, along with audio clips from Elsie the Exo Stranger, hidden in certain highlighted letters in words. Think the actress's name who became Elsie the Exo Stranger is Moira Quirk, the same who does the voice for Orin the Emissary of the Nine?

[@mozeytown]

Yep. It was Lauren Cohen in D1 but Moira Quirk all through D2. She's also the voice of Karliah in Skyrim, and once you notice the similarities it's impossible to stop hearing them xD

[@Firellius]

Something that piqued my interest in the interactions between Clovis and the Vex is the identity of the Vex. Patternfall strongly suggests the Vex are the product of the Flower Game at the root of Destiny's creation mythos. This also means that the degenerative influence of Clarity, which reduces things to its component parts, gives a unique insight: the Alkahest is what the Flower Game was played with. The purest essence of life.

[@lordexohunter558]

Clovis is one of the many fictional characters who fall in to the "egotistical genius scientists who are terrible fathers"

[@ericconrad8854]

I found it really interesting seeing how a copy of him without all the baggage ended up being so good at the same time. Some of the best parts of Destiny is when "fate" is defied.

[@kiryuchansboyfriend]

All this lore points to Clovis and his corporation essentially being the Destiny equivalent of Cyberpunk’s Arasaka or Blade Runner’s Tyrell/Wallace. It’s creepy af and I love it

[@SoonerPerfected]

Holy shit, I didn’t even think to compare Braytech to Arasaka but that’s insanely accurate. My first thought was “huh?” but the more I think about it the more similarities I see “Wake the fuck up Guardian, we got a Crypt to burn”

[@Xenronnify]

I forgot Stephen Fry did Clovis's human voice!! God, the particular cadence and accent he does is PERFECT for a supervillain.

[@dinkeycat]

Poor byf said "I'm going to try to get this out before beyond light launches". Like that was almost 3 years ago, my man

[@daviharrington]

The two sentences at 18:36 were also the end goals of the Prophet of Truth in Bungie's Halo. He wanted to activate the Rings to kill off all life so he could reseed the galaxy in his own image just like the Forerunners inadvertently did with Humanity. Hence the multiple phrases by Mercy and Truth "This time, none of you will be left behind" and "Now I see why they left you behind". Now it seems to be repeating with Clovis Bray How deep does the Marathon/Halo/Destiny rabbit hole go?

[@en_demic]

Would love to see a Clovis-led faction of the Vex in his likeness called “the Simulacra,” bring in some Baudrillard or Deleuze to help theorize this perspective haha.

[@flaccidactyl804]

"Remember that in the description you can find the extra videos" There are no videos in the description... Very helpful...

[@Lewisman-wn6zk]

I would love to see you cover Marathon lore. It is surprisingly connected with some of the stories explored in Destiny and I think it would be a great thing to dive into.

[@yhelloh]

28:14 Awesome how much credit you give to others. Thank YOU for making such entertaining content, as per usual. :)

[@ringomandingo1015]

Clovis is a psycho but there is SO much depth that his story brings that I’m infuriated that Bungie doesn’t expand on it in-game! I really wanted to hear him talk about the vision he given from Clarity and establish his purpose/reason for his villainy because he right now he’s a jerk for jerk’s sake.

[@manqobashongwe1301]

I think the reason I love the Clovis Bray series so much is because he's inextricably linked to the lore of the golden age. Can't really give us one without the other.

[@thebagel_lord]

The more we learn about CB1, the more he sounds like he's been almost lifted right out of the Adeptus Mechanicus

[@HadrosaurHero]

Thoughts from Clovis thoughts on the Vex 1. Are the vex the perfect form of bomb logic? The peak of cooperation and working towards a higher goal than one individual could achieve. 2. If the Vex became a larger threat, if Clovis isn't destroyed would he be a future uneasy ally for that? It's hard to give him any amount of trust, but his hate of the vex could be useful. 3. Wonder if we'll ever get to see a place like this Vex dominated place. Something further than Nessus in terraforming.

[@muninrob]

There was Mercury & the Infinite Forest

[@s-ebbyy841]

I wanna see a forge Star, that’s what’s behind the Europa Vex portal in the Glassway right? A dungeon or exotic missions there would be awesome

[@s-ebbyy841]

I wanna see a forge Star, that’s what’s behind the Europa Vex portal in the Glassway right? A dungeon or exotic missions there would be awesome

[@muninrob]

@@s-ebbyy841 I hope, and somehow doubt that the term forge-star is hyperbole - we've seen their planet sized computers. (see above)

[@AdamPortier]

Thank you for the continued and in-depth analysis of the story and lore. I would love to humbly request as a long time Marathon fan that you do even a brief miniseries on the games' story, maybe the next time stuff slows down in Destiny. Those games have some amazing lore and setting which require players to not only do a lot of reading, but also potentially miss things since the story is presented non-linearly and spread across all those terminals. As far as I am aware, no one has done this on KZbin and I think the Marathon community would love the insight and visibility it would bring. Thank you for what you do and continue to do for the fans of these games.

[@JoshRosario310]

The depth of Clovis as a character is so fascinating

[@boppler9777]

It’s so cool that you’re continuing this series

[@Cloudfox200]

I would absolutely watch Marathon lore videos by you. I watched some in the past but they were not nearly the same quality or thoroughness as yours!

[@robertstevenson883]

27:52 Well, I wish you luck with such an ambitious release schedule.

[@disgruntledbob2812]

The Saga of Clovis Bray is some very fascinating lore I have to say. Another thing I have to say is PLEASE DO MARATHON LORE that is a great idea thank you :)) Been trying to find a good lore source like this channel for that series for a while

[@markojohn480]

im so glad you brought this series back

[@phnx_tom5400]

Clovis Bray is by far my favourite Character in Destiny. All this Golden Age Lore is absolutely fascinating. I also really like his Voice Actor

[@belken117]

Marathon lore, I will totally listen to that! That game has a lot of story and it's universe feels very elusive as old Scifi novels that keep you diving in for more.

[@MrTmm97]

@My name is Byf 1:04 Where is the playlist you mentioned you would link in the description. I don’t see it.

[@Turnsky]

The thing that nabs my attention is the bit on HOW an exo is made by way of a deep brain scan that ultimately kills the patient. Kinda weird implications if, say... The dead human whose mind was made into an Exo became a guardian. - at least for those who wanna write their own fic, anyway.

[@cosmiclikesminecraft]

LETS GOOO. I’m so glad your coming back to this series I adore the lore of Clovis. He’s a horrible person but completely fascinating

[@Xenronnify]

I honestly wonder something too - The Guardians who were Exo in life, how many of them were from that first "batch" of incredibly brave (or foolish, or unwilling) participants Clovis used to 'perfect' the Exo technology? I'd think the Traveler/Ghosts would recognize their attitudes as perfect for Guardian-hood, as it requires a good bit of self-sacrificing tendency.

[@mastalibenge2721]

I wish the destiny universe had a character like escanor from seven deadly sins, it would be a refreshment from all the damn crying in the seasonal story. Like i want to read some lore and feel inspired not feel depressed

[@jackgammon1490]

Right now I'm interested in Maya Sundaresh and the lore regarding her. Looking forward to your video of Entry 12

[@johnnymiller1129]

Genuinely captivated by clovis' exploration of Velantis.... wish the story went into greater detail.

[@dylanwheeler6758]

The thing is, exo mind decay is a logical theory for real life. So much of the brain is subconsciously running the body. Without a body to run, the brain would conclude it is dead. Thats entirely based in science and i love it

[@UncleKaz231]

Oh man I hope Clovis doesn’t get killed in a season or something, he deserves to be the main villain to his own expansion

[@Just_Q]

I'm thinking he becomes a disciple candidate. He's already influenced my the darkness through clarity. And if you count all alien races in destiny you have a disciple from each one and one that are allied with the light. We are just missing a human disciple.

[@Landis963]

@@Just_Q There was a very convincing reddit theory post that posited that Clovis would be A-OK with a Disciple position (citing his references to his rightful place among a pantheon of gods, and, in his dreams, how readily he abandons the "aphids" to serve their destroyer).

[@neokyanyoa8061]

My guess is that, in Lightfall, Calus is going to be the campaign boss, while Clovis gets to be the raid boss. Unless we get another curveball like Rhulk or Calus gets a phase 2 in the raid, that's where I'm at.

[@slipinoy]

In D1 when I'd explore the bray ruins I wanted to know more about the history of their company. Kinda sucks their founder was such a bastard. Guess all Clovis' offspring turned out way better than him, even Alton to Banshee his direct clones

[@Lady_Amelia-Eloise]

I mean the one who invented SIVA was possibly bad too, I think Ana and Elsie are the only good brays

[@KrausHaus0]

@@Lady_Amelia-Eloiseand it’s debatable how Ana was before she was a guardian. Rasputin likes her but she’s been attacked by random exos in the lore that recognized her.

[@blacktroller235]

27:57 Don’t know if its a freudian slip or an old script but you make note of getting all these set of videos done before beyond light, which is 2 years old now lol.

[@steelgriffin7716]

A little bit of a digression, I have to say that it was both touching, and creepy, that Clovis tried to make Elsie's body as close in proportions to her original body as possible. Because, if I'm honest, if you're attracted to the female form... Um...Yea. ALSO: Byf... Uh... Marathon lore would be fantastic. But mindbleeding.

[@johnsaints969]

Don't forget the prologue, Pathways into Darkness. ByF might go crazy in the process.

[@eotwkdp]

To be fair wouldn’t you want to do that too. I’m not going to half ass the body.

[@Levigumba]

@@eotwkdp fair. Hell, you could even enhance certain parts of your body

[@InsomniacStephens141]

Ever since seeing the cutscene with his evil face and round glasses, I genuinely think he reminds me of the Dr in Fullmetal Alchemist. If you know you know

[@IamDustinuNoob]

Come to think of it…. Yeah he is reminding of “Him” same process using family. Oh God!

[@aztumtheknightofwumbo7060]

Good grief. I SEE THE RESEMBLENCE!!!!

[@thaabyss665]

I see BYF video I click.

[@dakotaburda5976]

My name is Byf you're the best!

[@ryanselle3778]

Would definitely watch marathon lore videos great idea byf !

[@makoredeyes]

Super stoked to find this since I'd just circled around to the older journal entries (separately, then finding the playlist) and was fumbling around for the rest I didn't realize didn't exist! Clovis is fascinating. I'm enjoying studying him. But in the way you put a particularly ugly bug in a jar, then shake it really hard to see what it looks like angry...

[@Captain_Maeve]

27:54 I don't think that deadline is possible

[@SuperTrooperG]

Byf, have you ever done a video to explore the symmetries or echoes of the lore between previous bungee games? Like halo, marathon, destiny? If not it would be super interesting to see your thoughts on it! Always love your videos!

[@jmojocat1944]

It's makes me wonder about Ada-1's story from the Black Armory season. Were they carrying around Vex milk on Earth during the collapse?

[@kriscerosaurus]

It must have grated Clovis to no end, seeing himself as the only path to humanity's perfection all while knowing deep down that his genetic code was so flawed. I wonder how much of his transhumanism was fueled by self loathing.

[@TerrariaGolem]

Mfw the traveler resurrects me, but I have DER

[@bradleyward124]

Wait.... before beyond light? Byyyyfff the time traveling lore acholar

[@redingray6226]

Has anyone else noticed he said "before Beyond Light comes out."?

[@tomagee420]

PLEASE cover Marathon lore! I just played through the first two games, they're so iconic and the parallels with other Bungie games is really cool to see.

[@Become-Eggplant]

Its a good thing we got Clovis-44, wished they had Banshee appear in Season of the Seraph.

[@climarathorn]

I can't hear Stephen Fry as the Clovis AI without hearing it as an entry from the Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy

[@destiny-theseries]

The Clovis Bray and family story lines are my favorite of the series.

[@Ash_6614]

HOLY SHIT I HAD JUST RETURNED TO THIS TOPIC A FEW DAYS AGO AND NOW YOU'VE RESUMED THIS SERIES, SERIOUSLY CANNOT WAIT FOR THE MAYA SUNDARESH REVEAL TO BE COVERED

[@Supernova094]

I have a feeling Clovis bray will trigger arrival of Xivu Arath at end of this season by taking control of warsats and wrecking havoc .

[@Kojack150]

Or worst.... if that really is rasputin in that exo frame and not clovis hiding and pretending....

[@hockeypan8066]

Mio Sunderesh seems awfully close to MSUND-12 from that one strike on Nessus 🤔

[@taylorstratford9717]

*COUGH*

[@KrausHaus0]

Pretty sure he pointed that out when the strike came out. During the red war.

[@SpikeRazzor]

27:51 - Lightfall I think you mean.

[@CERBERUS_349]

i love your content man. its truly top notch

[@foolishfooligan4437]

So to my understanding, guardians don't seem to get DER, is that correct or am I mistaken?

[@v.rocky111]

Correct since paracasuality

[@Ian1KV]

They actually can! We just die so often that it's NBD.

[@MynameisByf]

DER is kept very deliberately vague. It’s not known how long it technically takes and it’s probably for the best. Guardians might have an exception given their constant habit of dying but who knows…

[@cheetahofthewind13]

My theory on DER is it would probably trigger around the time you think you should die of old age so say the final average years for a golden age human is when it would probably triggers if not earlier in rare cases

[@atomic_toaster6394]

I’d assume guardians can’t get DER because they start as an exo while people that became exo were originally human. I think that because the guardian has always been an exo while they are a guardian would mean that their mind isn’t able to realise that it should be in a human body, preventing DER.

[@lDoxology]

I love the clovis bray and europa lore. Probably my favorite

[@MrTavrosNitram]

Ive binged mandalores marathon and pathways reviews so many times and still cant wrap my head around it all fully. id love for you to take a crack at them and maybe make some connections to the bungie paraverse as a whole

[@alejandrocarralero2826]

I'm seeing the dead space inspiration with the K1 artifact and Clarity being very similar to the Marker in a way

[@sinisterplotter6447]

I am part of that "Gladd math" percentage that loves the lore

[@ASpaceOstrich]

Regarding inheriting that rare disease. It's worse than that. They didn't naturally inherit it. Nor was it an unexpected side effect of Clovis' meddling. Clovis had it, knew he had it, and deliberately edited it into his son and grandchildren. He believed that the looming threat of the disease would be a fire beneath their feet as it was for him. Knowing he's got a horrible death rapidly approaching definitely contributed to his pursuit of immortality and his obsession with legacy.

[@chaotixthefox]

Clovis I didn't have it. He's lived an unnaturally long time on the back of an immense body renewal plan. If he had it that wouldn't be possible. Anton, Wilhelmina, and Anastasia didn't have it either. It was his attempt to make Clovis II sleepless that caused it, and it's incurable because he made the immune system of the Bray family too robust, and resistant to further alteration. The treatments that would deal with it are insufficient for this reason.

[@Landis963]

Oh gosh, the B-roll footage! I'd forgotten that the Exo Simulation course stuff was still in the game!

[@ASpaceOstrich]

The exo reacting poorly to an extra set of limbs is something of a plot hole because IRL people adapt perfectly fine to extra prosthetic limbs. Our mental map of our bodies is very vague and extremely flexible and having that map getting disrupted resulting in DER doesn't actually make any sense given that real world people have no issues with it. I headcanon it that earlier exos actually have their mental map manually set up rather than just using the brains natural ability to deal with it, and the artificial one is too rigid to handle change. If DER hadn't naturally arisen back in those days, any loss of limb or major injury would have triggered DER in those early exos because their body doesn't match the mental map. Clovis would likely have been miffed that his painstaking artificial body map was detrimental and had to be replaced by using the natural one. But yeah, IRL if you had some extra limb prosthetics attached you'd handle it just fine. People have super flexible mental maps of their bodies and can adapt to pretty much any changes. You can implant extra senses even.Theres a vibrating implant you can get that gives you a natural sense of which way north is. At first you have to deliberately pay attention to the vibration but after a while the brain adapts and it just becomes a sense you have.

[@ShaoShaoMienshao]

I think there's a marked difference between artificial prothesis being strapped onto you as a tool, versus trying to remap a human mind to literally treat multiple new arms as genuine appendages of their own.

[@ASpaceOstrich]

@@ShaoShaoMienshao The study found that no there isn't. That was part of the point. People integrated the new appendages into their mental map of their body and were thrown off when they were removed as they had gotten used to having them there. There are some surgeries performed on amputees that can give them better function that do similar drastic changes to the body plan and the brain just kind of adapts. I think its less that the brain is amazing at changing its body plan, and more that the body plan is actually really vague. You can see evidence of this with things like the fake hand trick where you will recoil instinctively if a rubber hand is hit because you can trick your brain, really easily, into thinking thats your actual hand.

[@ThyBigCheddar]

@@ASpaceOstrich But were they connected to the nervous system.

[@vaughntruesdale2197]

27:47 yeah bro, you gotta hurry, or else beyond light will come out and you will have missed the algorithmic content window and fall by the wayside (love the video)

[@ronin9380]

Thanks for the Great work!

[@MarathonTheGamer]

i would LOVE it if you did Marathon lore!

[@Brad-ut1ro]

27:55 For a second I thought, “damn, am I watchin an old video?” Actually had me second guessin myself enough to double check the upload date on the vid. Lol

[@awesomeguy9513]

So side note the character deleted bug seems to be growing with a content creator on twitter having a character being deleted, 2 times in 1 week is scary and these are just the known players

[@mittensfastpaw]

I wonder if having something like gender dysphoria would have helped with becoming an Exo. A deep seated hatred of the body one is stuck in that even leads sometimes to a distaste of humanity. Thus getting a body of the gender wanted and not human would have been a boon to some. Highly desired at even a subconscious level in a way that might have allowed early Exo to work.

[@QuantaSolace]

I’d imagine it would make it worse and would lead to D.E.R. faster.

[@slipipipi7971]

@@QuantaSolace I could see it being risky and it could be either really benificial or absolutely fatal

[@Spike2276]

The specifics aren't mentioned but Micah Abrams could be a case of such a thing, the details escape me but they were effectively the first "trans Exo" if you will

[@steelgriffin7716]

I like think there are a few low number Exo out there that lucked out getting an exoframe closer to who they really are.

[@fernix918]

I reckon it would help at first, but the fundamental problem persists, that being the body not matching the mental self-image. Perhaps a trans person would be more able to cope with the onset of DER if placed in an unwanted body seeing as it would be sort of parallel to their experience in life, or maybe a body they wanted would delay the condition, but eventually it would set in anyways, as it did for cisgender exos

[@MR-zt1hh]

I am a nurse working in sleep medicine. The "prion" disease that Elsie suffered from is real and known as Fatal Familial Insomnia. A prion is the result of a protein misfolding, and in this case it causes a buildup of plaque in the Thalmus, which is the primary center for sleep control/regulation in the brain. This begins as bouts of insomnia, which devolve into a complete lack of sleep, and ultimately complete degradation into insanity. We have seen very few of these patients ever (aside from this being an incredibly rare disease; something to the effect of 50 families in the world), as there truly is no cure, or even treatment to ease the side effects aside from heavy sedation.

[@Ins0mn3sia]

I've read, and seen videos on FFI, and it's truly horrifying stuff. I couldn't remember the exact name of the disease. Rare as it is, wouldn't wish that on anyone. Your comment was a wonderful brief refresher course.

[@brycemurphy5773]

“I’m going to look to get all of these done, if I can, we’ll before BEYOND LIGHT comes out” 27:51

[@williammurphy1207]

Wait wait wait was that exo from Georgia talking about savathun possessing his body or am I misremembering the story having someone from Georgia chant the hive to earth ?

[@Lady_Amelia-Eloise]

The exo was from the country, the lore involving hive on earth is the state of Georgia

[@williammurphy1207]

@@Lady_Amelia-Eloise yeah that's what I mean at some point b4 the collapse savathun make a deal with a guy and his family to chant for her and she would help the family out. Like the guy was a human b4 he was an exo and he could be a descendant of the guy that made the deal

[@duckcc73]

I somehow forgot about the information terminals! Thanks for the reminder.

[@whatyousee3225]

I'm just happy he gave Elsi that custom, extra.. Modified frame! I'm my book he's a good guy for this specific thing he did

[@lordtouchmesan3207]

Clovis is a dope character, very well written, evil and twisted, but I really like him 🤷🏾‍♂️ tend to like characters like him (Mayuri Kurosuchi from bleach) I'll be one of the minorites in that department, probably lol

[@alexbaer455]

It depends, normal people like well written villains for the quality of the character in the context of the story. That is the majority of people. The minority of people are the ones that like clovis bray 1 because they think he was doing something necessary, I hope those people are the minority

[@slipipipi7971]

Mayuri actually is a little bit less messed up than clovis lol, at least that guy is 100% on our side clovis is lowkey only on his side he wants to be God

[@IIzanagii]

Bro likes Hitler💀

[@steelgriffin7716]

An easy man to hate, but an entertaining man to watch. @alexbaer455 is pretty on the money there.

[@petexn7573]

please dive into marathon, those stories and lore entries go REAL DEEP into some wild stuff....marathon 3 is a little all over the place but infinity is just *chef kiss* and you can see exactly where halo and destiny got all the chops from

[@DragonBornHero]

Clovis Bray was a narcissistic genius with a superiority complex combined with a severe hero complex

[@Landis963]

Did you mean "Lightfall" there at the end? Or was this recorded back in Beyond Light, and just didn't get a slot on the schedule before now?

[@TheQwaz]

Love the lore and the DER stuff has me intrigued. Due to being a middle age gamer i try to imagine how it would be if this was possible. Show me the body, let me look it over and give me a full run down (like the potential of having extra limbs attached) of what it can/can't do. I'd try to have the mindset going in that i'd become a living mobile suit in a manner of speaking. And as long as i have proper counseling on a regular basis i'd like to think that would avoid DER. #fingerscrossed

[@Funnhouse]

Wow you’re almost at a million subscribers 🎉I have been with you since D1 and honestly you’re more important to the community than eververse 😂I said what I said.

[@Wolficefang]

You mention at 21:40 linking Clovis Bray's experiments in the description, but it isn't there. Could you add it please?

[@BigSchlog]

I have a strong feeling that at some point, it’ll be revealed to us that all life requires some sort of mixture made of darkness and light to actually being said life in to existence.

[@Dandroid_1]

Exos have always been my favourite race. Even back in D1, I was called Durandal, after Marathon c;

[@theTariray]

The slow-burn horror of Clovis' journals is something that actually gave me nightmares the first time I read it. However, given that we know that Clovis used the vex and the darkness to create exos - I am eternally suspicious of the bray legacy and I genuinely think we haven't seen the last of the real horror of the DSC. In addition - Exos dream of the DSC but also of the tower - which is a motif that even Clovis himself didnt understand. I once freaked out a little when in-game, my ghost asked my exo guardian if he thought his brain was saved in one of the servers in the crypt. It was hella unnerving. Also - the process of skin delamination as threatened by Clovis life support systems made me want to puke. In short - We havent seen the last of Clovis Bray and also - well done Bungie for writing effective body horror.

[@stevendoty1986]

Great video! Thank you

[@TechniTiger]

Unless DER is caused by the darkness, i find its concept absolutely absurd. We deal with dramatic changes with remarkable plasticity. From missing limbs, to additional ones in modern experiments. From the iron lung, to bypasses that eliminate eating. Regardless of new or missing stimulus, humans survive. Why would that stop in metal?

[@jhemp]

Yeah, but your analysis is missing a couple points. When we lose limbs, we lose not only the limb itself, but the sensory input from that limb as well as the function of the limb itself. Exos maintain function, but lack the neural feedback(however the the exo nerve system works is unknown). Humans with "extra" limbs either go one of two ways, either they are not part of the body and likely co-opt existing mirror neurons to generate "feeling" or are robotic implants which people can hardly say compare to actual limbs in sophistication and sensory feedback and to say they were the same vastly downplays how much further we need to go in the field of cybernetics to reach that point. The iron lung does not bypass the need to breathe it still simulates the act of breathing complete with muscles and inhaling. Exo's lack the need to breathe entirely. You can bypass mastication and even digestion in the stomach and parts of the intestines, but you can't get rid of the need to eat entirely. More and more research comes out every day suggesting the stomach can also play a huge role in thought patterns. While I agree the human mind and body is extremely plastic, the extent to which that plasticity goes is an unknown quantity, and as far as I know NONE of the individuals alive have every experienced ALL of these changes at one time. Perhaps they could, perhaps it would drive them to insanity, no one knows exactly. Additionally, the autonomic nervous system functions in exos would almost be entirely replaced. If you try to hold your breath as long as you can eventually your body takes over and forces you to breathe, what happens when you don't NEED to breathe, but your brain still thinks that you do. Perhaps nothing or perhaps you experience panic induced by the feeling of suffocation. This is only ONE of those functions, of which there are dozens more not reporting back to the central nervous system. This is also completely disregarding the idea that it could be a purely psychological breakdown caused by waking up in a new body that's not yours. Humans still have breaking points that's why they are pushed to insanity at some point. We know far to little to conclude something like this sounds implausible even with real world non paracausal means, let alone with magic and reality defying powers at play.

[@ReaverPrime]

Every time I hear of Clovis and his obsession with legacy through family, I think of the Nietzscheans. They are a human subspecies from Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda series. Every Nietzschean, male or female, was singlemindedly focused on finding the strongest partner available and pumping out the biggest family possible for the sole purpose of cementing their legacy.