How DUNE Prophecy Fumbled Critical Aspects of Frank Herbert's Universe

[@NerdCookies]

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[@tahnadana5435]

are all the writers of raised by wolves working on this BS? because now you know how fallout true fans felt about the shit tv adaptation

[@midcentralvowel]

I love how Bene Gesserit are supposed to have ‘plans measured in centuries’ yet in the show they fail to plan a week ahead and are constantly surprised by some very predictable circumstances.

[@nurgle333]

long game political plans measured in centuries make folks super uncomfortable irl

[@eliaswest7359]

To be fair.. this bene Gesserit is 10,000 years less skilled and trained than the one we come across in the Dune Movies..

[@SweetandFullofGrace]

@@solarydays Exactly, you got it. Thats what it is, literally written by soap writers and it shows.

[@menninkainen8830]

No plan survives contact with the enemy.

[@DanniDusette]

The Guild needed to be in the films. The ending was severely damaged by not having them involved. The brief appearance at the beginning of the first movie was awesome, but then poof they were gone. They should have at least discussed them and their stranglehold on the Imperium, their blackmailing of the Fremen, the way they hamper open warfare by charging prohibitive amounts for transporting military equipment, etc. A few lines of dialogue would have done it, but that's not DV's style. We needed more perfume ad shots of the desert, I guess.

[@BbNaB]

Completely cut out as a faction because it makes sense to the production budget to make them unimportant. Which if you look at the books is pretty much true except that you may as well get rid of the Emperor then since in the same logic he only matters in the first book, right? It's a cascading effect of adaptation that builds up to even worse failure of the project as the show continues.

[@DanniDusette]

@@BbNaB Pretty true, and that's kind of what they did. The Emperor was basically a footnote so they could set the Sisterhood up as the real evil all along. But, like you said, it creates narrative snarls that will likely be just as ignored. I keep saying the adaptation of Dune Messiah will be about 20 minutes long, considering the length of the book and DV's slash and burn tactics when it comes to adaptation. He'll need a lot of slo-mo shots of the desert to bloat the runtime, but I'm sure he'll deliver.

[@BbNaB]

@@DanniDusette I know enough about the business to understand the decisions they make but such a fan of the books I know why they shouldn't

[@DanniDusette]

@@BbNaB I keep saying it, but Dune's like a Jenga pile - start moving the pieces and everything will eventually come falling down.

[@HavanaOutpost]

Consider yourself lucky. Us over here in Middle Earth are dealing with Rings of Power. Nothing can salvage that.

[@brown2889]

Then there’s West World.

[@enochlamont877]

Or Foundation. Or Wheel of Time.

[@bgarcia8929]

Thanks for reminding me that things can be a lot worse.

[@pikadasgalaxias306]

​@@enochlamont877"Foundation" TV series... The horror! The horror!

[@HavanaOutpost]

@@bgarcia8929😂

[@jmichaelgentry]

One thing really loved from the Lynch version was the meeting between the emperor and the navigator. That single meeting told you everything you needed to know about the power and weight the guild wielded.

[@rex-qo1eu]

That was the first dune thing I saw and it traumatized me and for a good reason, it is important

[@thesean3194]

It was one of the best scenes in the movie imo, even with the funky looking practical effects.

[@jmichaelgentry]

@@thesean3194 I always thought it was hilarious how the navigator handlers made a half-ass attempt to clean up the slime or whatever it was, when the navigator left the room.

[@SPQRTempus]

I thought the second and rather more brief meeting between the Guild representative and the emperor in Lynch's Dune was more telling when they basically told him what he was going to do and directly threatened him with bodily harm if he didn't comply. ONLY the Guild could get away with that in the Dune universe.

[@Dularr]

Except that wasn't from the first book.

[@ncstrev]

After watching Prophecy, I assumed their take was that Mentats were not yet that common. We're set in a time of 10BG-25AG with the first Mentat school developed between 68-5BG and a failure rate of 35% for the best candidates. This could explain the lack on Mentats in Prophecy, but I still would have expected the Emperor to have a Mentat. But there really needed to be a Guild presence in this story helping the audience to understand just how powerful and important the Guild are.

[@jonahhekmatyar]

But the bene geserit are already trusted advisors to all the house leaders and emperor, face dancers are already a thing, the fremen exist too somehow, and "the spice must flow". I vehemently disliked how they pick and choose elements of dune instead of telling a holistic story

[@SweetandFullofGrace]

Problem is that that timelines dont work in this universe, you can throw it out of the window, they were not in show people show writers didnt write them in.. there is no other reason

[@BbNaB]

They don't have mentats yet but Voice shows up like a mutant ability in comic books. Great.

[@davidlewis8814]

I remember one line referenced that “the rules of kanly were followed” and I guess we’re all just supposed to understand that and all that entails even though none of the adaptations (that I recall) go into what that’s all about.

[@danielchoquette5371]

That's why I thought it would be better to do an adaption of the Sisterhood of Dune book. So much of this series was dedicated to creating and expanding the origins of not only the Bene Gesserit but also the Mentats and the Fremen. Following the book, it's only one generation removed from the Machine Crusade and all three of these groups (and even the Guild to some extent) are still coming into being. But they should have used this opportunity to show where they come from - something a three hour movie might have trouble doing. Great video.

[@dangerbeans9639]

Yeah this whole thing about the truth Sayers having to put an empress on the throne because of some nebulous prophecy really fell flat for me. You have the rivalries between the Bene Geserit and the spacing guild, the rivalry between the emperor and the landsraad. So much potential for political and economic intrigue just being left on the table.

[@NoManSkyler]

I feel like they avoided the politics side very heavily due to the fact that a lot of people HATED the prequel trilogy of Star Wars for that exact reason. For some reason however, Game of Thrones, which is heavy on the politics of the realm was an absolute success before the final season.

[@dlp157-vw2lv]

​@NoManSkyler that's a good point about the prequels. There was something heavy handed and forced about the politics in those films.

[@DanniDusette]

@@dlp157-vw2lv Yes, because the writing of the prequels was amateurish and Star Wars has always been defined by high-paced action sequences. Dune, however, is all about political/economic intrigue, and they cut it out of the recent films as well as downplayed it like crazy with this series by almost entirely omitting the Guild and making the Landsraad like 50 people. A lot of how the Dune universe looks and functions is enforced by the Guild - they're the ones who keep large-scale warfare to a minimum by charging enormous amounts for military transport, requiring intrigue and espionage; they enforce the Great Convention by threatening to embargo anyone who violates it, if not just folding in hordes of death commandos to erase the problem. They keep the Emperor on his throne as long as he keeps the spice flowing and will gladly see him replaced if he can't. They're such a major player that their absence severely hamstrings the narrative, and we're seeing how bad it is in this show. Cutting them out of the end of the second DV film was bad enough, but this is a lot worse.

[@ForgeMasterXXL]

My only theory is that given the political strife that has been felt round the world in recent years they decided to play it down far too much in an effort to make it more ‘entertaining’. Personally I’d love the ‘unstable triangle of power’ angle to the power structures.

[@ainternet239]

The problem I see is that Hollywood has created a series set 10000 years before Paul Atreides, but wants everything to be recognizsble by people who watched Villeneuve‘s films. So we have the same „look“, the same concerns, essentially the same society. This is like imagining we today have the same concerns as the ancient Egyptians, whereas we don’t even live in the same society as 30 years ago

[@DanniDusette]

A lot of people are relying on the "stagnation is a major issue in Dune, it's in the narration" excuse, but they're missing a lot of nuance. The problem was the social status quo of the faufreluches - the enforcement of an absolute feudal system that kept people under the thumb of the Landsraad and the Guild. It's entirely reasonable to expect a lot of things changed - fashions, Houses Major and Minor, CHOAM directorships, technology to a degree, etc. There's tons they could have done to make this feel distinct while still being in the same universe, but they just went the safest possible route, just like the films did, by cutting out anything that might seem too out there. We could have seen something like the CET and the writing of the OC Bible, leading up to the Battle of Corrin, or even a War of Assassins between entirely original Houses with the Sisterhood pulling strings from the background, but that would have been too much of a challenge, I guess, and wouldn't have had enough "hey, you remember spice, right? Remember Arrakis?" moments.

[@mikealexanderEE]

The Frank Herbert “Dune” universe is beloved in no small part because of the richness of Frank’s writing style and clarity of vision. That’s why many people, myself included, don’t understand and don’t particularly enjoy poorly-executed lore modification when what most of us want is a visual interpretation of the books, at least the “Canonical Six”. I don’t want vast modifications to the Butlerian Jihad, thinking machines, the political balances of the various factions and ignoring factions such as the Spacing Guild. I don’t care about various director’s “artistic vision” - I want to see Frank’s brought to life, similar to “Dune Part One” and the Peter Jackson “Lord of The Rings” trilogy - why is that so much to ask?

[@brianstiles1701]

What I truly appreciate about these videos is that, despite being overall critical of the show, you still display optimism for the future of it. That's kind of where I'm at, overall I liked it, but I think it can be much better than the season we've gotten so far.

[@uclamordsith]

I think this is the biggest drawback of the Denis Duneiverse - the lack of emphasis on the importance of spice, what it's for, why it's fought over, and why the spacing guild is part of the tripod of balance of the governed Herbert Duneiverse, the true monopolies of the imperium, etc

[@jonahhekmatyar]

When the Atreides kid said "the spice must flow" I physically cringed. Like wtf does that even mean, you're snorting this stuff in night clubs how important can this possibly be?

[@Christian-gy6fk]

Yeah, the spice dumping scene made me spit out my drink. Do the show runners have any clue how ASTRONOMICALLY (pun intended) VALUABLE THAT SHIT IS?!?!

[@Christian-gy6fk]

Wars have been fought for smaller quantities.

[@dnkeane30]

THANK YOU! Yes, this is all spot on. And the Original Sin of this series is that it's based on Brian Herbert/Kevin Anderson's work -- like their work, this series shows little understanding of Frank Herbert's work.

[@elijahsnow3119]

Preach it! I’m honestly shocked how little they’ve had any screen time in the last few productions. 1) Mentats 2) Guild 3) Ginaz and other schools Let’s show some actual Transhumanism. Biological style. Also this is Hollywood. They do drugs. They don’t understand drugs.

[@dondragmer2412]

Plenty of drugs outside Hollywood.

[@BbNaB]

@@dondragmer2412 maybe I should take some so I can "enjoy" this show

[@bgarcia8929]

I agree that this show is a mixed bag. In my opinion the biggest mistake is setting the show ten thousand years before the events of Paul's jihad. This show takes place less than a century after the Thinking Machines were overthrown. At this point all the Great Schools are in their infancy but the show depicts them fully formed. To bring up Imprinters and Face Dancers is way too soon. If the show took place a century before Paul it would make more sense. But i still enjoyed the show and look forward to Season 2.

[@marknovak6498]

Dune had a 60s mystical uoutlook on drugs and the movies seemed to take a more 80s law enforcement casual outlook on drugs.

[@henrymach]

The studio probably won't allow the TV series to show a navigator before the movies

[@thetonetosser]

One of the big problems I have with this show is it being set 10,000 years before Franks books. That's a long time. Like way longer from ancient Egypt until now. But the technology kinda looks the same. Or if you like, has been 'imagined' the same. As opposite as they are to the Frank universe, the club scenes did give the series a slightly more primal look. I would have preferred something less technically sophisticated.

[@Zanzibar_Dallax]

I seem to be in a small camp of viewers who are enjoying this show 😅 That said, I fully agree here: Spice isn't being spoken about nearly enough, but I'm assuming that the upcoming season taking place (atleast in part) on Arakkis should bring the subject up more often.

[@Diogolindir]

I think a lot of people enjoyed the show, this is just a base for the ones who hate it. But yea, everyone has the right to like it or not

[@menninkainen8830]

Looking at the IMDB score many people have liked it. If someone expected they would get a series from the dreams of Frank Herbert they really need to adjust their expectations. It's not the greatest but it is one of the best Sci-Fi shows of this millennium. And that says more about the competition.

[@Zotrax1946]

You always articulate what I think, so well!! All the points I make in my mind, yet not as elegantly as you.

[@jacobnavarro3675]

I don't even think the emperor needed a mentat because it wasn't established in the story that he did need one. But do you know what the show constantly showed that he absolutely did need? I'll take Security for 1,000, Alex. Where was the security in the royal palace? How is there nobody protecting the emperor or guarding the prison... or anything else? I hope the next guy learns a lesson and hires some guards.

[@AndersHansgaard]

Thanks again for another great, thorough and passionate video, Mrs. Cookies 👌

[@hamishsewell5990]

Yeah, as one of the legs of the ‘tripod’ of society in Dune, it irks me that the Guild is so often sidelined

[@bigmike-]

I think it's because, in general, there isn't a ton to draw from for the Guild. They're a secretive group, and even though they're a major power in th dynamics of the Dune universe, Herbert intentionally never went into much detail about them. Even though Prophecy is a "new" story, the writers still had to use *something* as a creative reference; naturally, if not the Great Houses or Choam, then the only logical last organization from the early days of the empire is the Bene Gesserit (since other orgs like the Bene Tleilax and Honored Matres don't exist yet)

[@menninkainen8830]

It's a lot of extra complexity with very little added value to actual stories. You can go deep into politics in a trilogy of books but you cannot stuff all those details in a movie or even TV show and still expect it to work. 'And for the most part you can narratively replace the guild with Emperor / Landsrad anyway since it is just a superstructure above them. Star Trek never really goes into politics of the Federation and that does not make it a worse show.

[@hamishsewell5990]

@ fair point.

[@JammaLamma]

Nailed it with this one Cookies. I mean you always do but this one like super nailed it😁

[@JesseRignall]

I was guessing that they could not include the Spacing Guild, and gave us the ultra basic ixian etc because stuff like that was off limits until Dennis brings them in to Messiah in more of a big reveal versus in a show that most people won't even watch. Like, I'm figuring they probably had a whole list of things they had to avoid or could not go into detail on. Navigator's design might not even be finalized yet, etc... Hopefully they will be able to dig deeper into the world building in Season 2. (Which I am still surprised is happening haha... Season 1 was such a clumsy mixed bag) And hopefully WAY less nightclub scenes. Thanks Elaine!

[@wolfbane7497]

Spaceing guild : " I AM I A JOKE TO YOU PEOPLE I AM LITERALLY SPACE AMAZON AND UBER !!!!!!! I AM IMPORTANT YOU MORTHER TRUCKERS!!!!!"

[@LordOfNihil]

they also run the banks. ...and choam is space amazon. nobody thinks of choam.

[@v4skunk739]

They are saving it for Dune3.

[@dondragmer2412]

MORTHER? Not MOTHER?

[@wolfbane7497]

@@dondragmer2412 so that Youwho Tube doesn't take down my comment just like now

[@hyperionthegood]

The thing that really bothered me about the show was that it made everything look so small. The Sisterhood school looks like Hogwarts and the Landsraad looked a local council meeting, very disappointing.

[@dlp157-vw2lv]

I think they did that on purpose. The machine war had only been over a short time and humans were rebuilding

[@DC-sd1lw]

Which is what I loved about the David Lynch 1984 Dune movie- everything was so grand, dark and opulent

[@evilcartmensolo7198]

I thought it strange that once the emperor dismissed the head of the order of the sisters , that the rest of the houses didn't turn on their truthsayers. People of the courts watch the royals in many cultures very closely and follow fashion trends and other things, but especially when the head mother is basically kicked out you'd think that would cause waves of distrust throughout the houses.

[@bobhoskins-kl6ue]

This is fatal flaw of the movies as well. We're now around 16 hours into this adaptation and if you haven't read the books you think spice is just a macguffin. When I'm talking to someone and the Dune movies come up I always ask if they have read the books, if not I like to ask them 2 questions. Is Dune set in the future or is it a "galaxy far far away" style setting. I always get either "I don't know" or "galaxy far far away". Then I ask why is the spice so important? The answer I always get is either "I don't know" or people think it must be like oil, and it's a energy source.

[@lordcrunk4790]

this

[@DJdext]

I couldn't agree more. The great revolt was universal in scale. Second maybe to Paul's jihad. Maybe even more important because it changes the course of humanity forever. So yes it doesn't work. The reaction to anyone having or using thinking machines should have been major.

[@jamesleonard2870]

You are so right N.C.! They should have a guild navigator that got expelled or went awaal and is like on stakes to help him score spice to see if he can survive the detox. He could be whoring out prescients for spice or money to buy spice. A super smart drug addict detoxing is a fun character and it only requires good acting. And I think they should do a Sven inside a harvester where we stay with the characters after they get gulped down like they survive for one or two minutes thinking they can many get out before it ingests them. Or have like o e girl actually escape and survive. That would be so rad and it would add so much info about different parts of the lore. Thanks for posting a video that really got me thinking about the possibilities! Your awesome NC 🌊🏄‍♀️🏄‍♂️

[@kingssman2]

As for the spacing guild , I wonder if the creators were holding off and waiting for what Danny Villeneuve envisions on how the guild would be portrayed? Plus I wonder if their focus kept shifting on trying to tell a character story at the expense of world building but also wanting to give fan service? 6 episodes probably shackled them when 10 would have given them room to develop the story further.

[@sonicocr]

This shows fails completely in the basic aspects of using and promoting the Dune lore. It’s another generic space story with magical witches with a secret agenda (Acolyte vibes). The right moment already passed away. The opportunity was lost in time to show the best elements and basic ideas to the series audiences. The Guild and the mentats are an amazing element of balance but they don’t care about those, maybe they think it’s too masculine and they erase them for that reason.

[@sluggerbutter]

lol have you even read any of the first seven frank herbert books the bene jesserit push men around for like thousands of years to create paul a balance of feminine and masculinity i don’t think anyone was afraid of “masculine” traits of the books or whatever culture war crap you’re talking about

[@menninkainen8830]

I think they believe hardcore Dune fans don't make a show financially viable. I'm surprised in this age of Marvel and modern Star Trek it actually is this Duneish. I was expecting a lot lot less.

[@moejaime2654]

The real question is what hasn't Dune Prophecy fumbled !! Great video nerd Cookies girl !!! 👍👍👍

[@tomambrosio5527]

We're going to start watching It this weekend. I look forward to seeing how my impressions match up with your reviews.

[@pernoxiod]

I was trying to piece together the timeline of the series. The wiki says Dune Prophecy is set during the BG (Before Guild) timeline, the Battle of Corrin was 88BG, so the setting is roughly around the time the Folding Space Company renames to the Spacing Guild. Tula brings her vengeance on the Atriedes in 3BG. Javicco becomes Padisha Emperor in 9AG. Here the wiki (on Fandom) skips ahead a few centuries. Guessing ages of the characters it is probably 29-35AG. The Bene Gesserit computer is dismantled in 4BG. So appears there is some adjustment to the timeline going on in the TV series. Which I am ok with, as I find a lot of the Brian Herbert stuff problematic to the what was established via the Appendixes in the original series.

[@minximayhem]

The problem is the superficiality of the writers, showrunners, producers and studios. They just see Dune as another Star Trek with Game of Thrones elements. Without realizing, at all.. that Dune is the original Song of Ice and Fire. Not literally. Dune came before all this shit is my point. In the beginning everyone is trying to copy it and pay homage to it.. Star Wars... and now they want to pigeon hole it as a GoT in space. They don't understand the inner journey Dune is. That sex and drugs aren't just gratuitous. There is a rhyme and reason to it all born out of deep mental and physical expansion of the self. So no they shouldn't be hording thinking machines but bozos think you have to have tech in scifi. Tech, gadgets, technobabble. Star Trek. Even Star Trek can't do Star Trek any more. So you are very right. So many missed opportunities. Both here and the films. They even got the look of Spice wrong. In it's gas form it's rust orange. In it's physical form it's BLUE. Hense why Fremen have BLUE EYES from consumption of raw Spice. SMH

[@menninkainen8830]

Still they did a lot better job than any of those modern trek shows.

[@MrPalp]

What struck me about Dune prophecy was the very high degree it was just "people standing around in room talking". Almost never did a character go to a location where they were not expected or highly familiar with.

[@slwiser1]

Exceptional commentary again.

[@NoManSkyler]

While I agree with most of your takes on this show, a few stood out to me that I feel MIGHT be misinformed or from overlooking certain details of the original novels. Many things in Herbert’s saga were left open for interpretation. One thing that was supposed to be made very clear was that humans are flawed, even messiah figures. 1. I think it would be natural that some people would still have versions of thinking machines during this time. I mean, look at the Tleilaxu, to think that they didn’t still hold onto some remnant of thinking machine while developing their twisted mentats and other scandalous endeavors would be kind of weird to me. They seem to be deeply morally corrupted. Also, just like anything else involving humans, there will always be an opposing force on any and every subject. Think of the old saying “rules are meant to be broken.” To think that no one had thinking machines in the 10 thousand years before Paul’s awakening is kind of ridiculous. That being said, during this time it would make the most sense that there were still thinking machines floating around, especially if they existed in the thousands of years to come. They were outlawed and they were defeated in the war, Herbert never explicitly states that no thinking machines remained. 2. I’ve always viewed spice as a double entendre for both resources(primarily oil, Arrakis representing the Middle East) and psychedelics(mind expanding drugs) yes, psychedelics and other narcotics can have beneficial medical properties, but most people do use them as a party drug. I never once thought the stuff they were snorting was spice, I thought it was just some drug that lacks importance other than its symbol of “a good time.” 3. If I’m not mistaken, there was a general distrust for mentats during this time, and they were still adapting as well as growing from within. Much like the sisterhood right after the war they weren’t as wide spread. This show takes place during the time where humans hadn’t fully adapted to their “true potential.” Not seeing Mentats wasn’t much of concern for me especially since their order wasn’t even formed until after the war unlike the sisterhood which had a predecessor the “Sorceresses of Rossak.” I figured the Mentats weren’t a true order yet due to the time this story takes place. “The exact origin of the Mentat's order is outlined in Frank Herbert's Chapterhouse: Dune novel and it is attributed to Gilbertus Albans. In the Legends of Dune novels by Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson Albans was trained by the thinking machine, Erasmus.” - Dune Wiki - I find it hard to believe that people who’s legacy was built on the destruction of thinking machines would so quickly have members of an order who’s teachings originated from them. 4. No matter how valuable spice is during this time, the possibility of thinking machines being used in a rebellion outweighs any riches to the people whose ancestors fought against them. Plus, there is an entire planet filled with it, so when they are dumping the narcotics I wasn’t that surprised. I have seen drug raids where the DEA does the same thing, it’s supposed to represent the carelessness of how SOME police might search through your stuff. The spice itself wasn’t the crime, it was the potential for insurgency. So yea, makes sense they would carelessly dump spice searching for a thinking machine. It’s not like they were there to confiscate it in the first place. OTHER THAN THAT, I 100% agree and I love your channel. It has inspired me to reread the first 3 books several times. Your content is awesome! I have a few gripes with this show but the above mentioned were not any of those. I disliked the openness of Valya using her new found powers to kill those who stood in her way. The sisterhood ALWAYS operated in complete secrecy and until “the voice” was mastered people remained blissfully unaware of their true power. Which leads me to HOW DID VALYA LEARN TO USE THE VOICE. Did she alone come up with it? Is it a telepathic power that the Sorceresses of Rossak were trying to hone in on? I felt the lack of explanation jarring… I found it ridiculous how quickly they had infiltrated not only the great houses but the royal house especially. I still don’t understand HOW TF Desmond survived the worm, UNLESS it was “divine intervention” by the God Emperor himself. Despite these gripes, I still enjoyed it a lot, I thought it was an amazing show and representation of the early Landsraad.

[@Natusian]

What's the background music you used in this video? I always love your choice of music for your videos. They sound very "Dune-esque."

[@biashacker]

This show has so much potential. I hate the books, but I can still see how this show has the potential to be as popular as GOT.

[@pilotpig9167]

i agree with 98% of your takes here, the one thing i disagree with is i think the amount of thinking machines in this series makes a decent amount of sense when it comes to the fact that we are in year 150~ out of a 20k timeline, if anywhere in this timeline id think to see thinking machines it would be right around and after the time humanity defeated them, not 1000 years after. imperium at 150ish years into the new norm, it makes sense to me some people or planets might not be fully on bored, (ex house richeese) with the removal of thinking machines at this point. id rather focus on other things but this did make sense to me just because of the time this series takes place in. what do yall think?

[@RGreen-rt1fk]

I, too, can be patient with a second or third generation removed from the enslavement, not fully understanding the true dangers of thinking machines. Humans, in general, are prideful. I'm sure many would believe they could control them.

[@EricOSullivan]

Elaine!!! Great video!!! Huzzah! 🙌🏻 I didn’t watch the show and I’m a Frank Herbert books and the movies/SyFy fan. No Mentats? Dumping Spice? The dumping Spice would have broken my suspension of disbelief in the story🤷🏻‍♂️that’s literally unbelievable

[@LordOfNihil]

i still think they are holding the navigators in reserve for a messiah reveal. but it would be nice to get some interactions with the bankers and bureaucrats that are the public facing parts of the guild. definitely need more mentats. would be interesting if next season was more focused around any of those groups with the sisters being relegated to the b plot.

[@jayavarmn6833]

I agreed with all your points. As I fill like the shows does need to expand on more of the Duniverse lores. It is a pretty interesting show but it needs to show and explain more of the world of the time 10,000 years prior to Dune’s established technologies and culture. Come on Dune: Prophecy Creators & Writers. You can do better than that. S1 has hooked us in. Now S2 should get us in deeper and broader into the Duniverse. Give us Fans what we want. Make it the best TV show ever for 2025.

[@Sorrybutno]

Maybe you should read Brian Herbert's books because they are pretty close to how he treats spice and drugs in his works.

[@michaelallen434]

I expected more world building and establishing of the different factions that make the empire a delicate balance of power that could crumble if too much power is applied. Then season 2 could spend more time on intrapersonal relationships. It didn’t use the time wisely with season one.

[@92vanguard]

I was assuming it was Semuta or one of the other myriad drugs he described in Dune.

[@MylesLynn-yo2kf]

I feel like the the guild is being sidelined due to Villanueva and the writers/designers not quite being dead set on how they want God Emperor Leto to be visually represented, and in tandem, the navigators and their Spice induced transformations. Probably want them to be somewhat similar in look and style for continuity

[@jeremyevans8374]

Maybe they are holding off on the guild so that DV can show it in Messiah. That is to say, if they ever intend to. So far, there has barely been any mention of them at all, let alone any reference to their importance. I'm a little puzzled by what appears to be this purposeful neglect.

[@davepost7675]

Spice is a party drug. How was it possible for the spacing guild go without thinking machines so soon after the Butlerian Jihad?

[@Dularr]

I don't think you will see a navigator until there is a problem with spice production.

[@MarcosSantos-dj6lk]

They still have a chance is just season 1 probably will have more two seasons, and another spin offs will be release as well. So expecting everything just fast don't make sense

[@fredkelly6953]

You don't even have to be heavily immersed in the Dune to know their are institutions built into the fabric of the Dune universe that make it what it is. Spice, the spacing guild, mentats, the feudal system must be given fair screen time or their importance will be lost.

[@shanenolan5625]

Thanks Elaine

[@FIDreams]

It's just All modern storytelling. We want this but the majority of the movie/series watching public don't want the way things were told they want something to put their ideologies into. The whole: Don't tell us a story, tell me how it means to me. My desires, my ideas, my wants.

[@niaherron4430]

not introducing the Spacing Guild and the Mentats is a GIANT missed opportunity. not only would we see the way humans adapt without thinking machines but also they had a window to flush out the tension between the Mentats and the Benegeserit. from what I read in Frank Herbert's Dune, the two did not trust each other and I would've loved to see that tension explored in this show

[@jennabronson4704]

The casual, recreational drug usage was so asinine. So out of character for members of a great house.

[@danelamoreaux4166]

Co-signed and agreed.

[@marcacee220]

They also want people not familiar with book, to be familiar with face dancers , ixians and all the other greatness Dune has too offer before Dune Messiah the movie

[@S.Kapriniotis]

I wholeheartedly agree, this is a great series that has nothing to do with Dune. I can live with that.

[@ALTRON3]

lols spice, the party drug. only way to describe it.

[@Abanndun]

I agree they fumbled the spacing guild and humans plight to learn how to navigate without sentient computers. However, Spice wasn't worth a ton in the begining because there was so muuch of it. By the fourth book a single suitcase of spice was worth kingdoms.

[@kdog3908]

The more I hear the more my fears are realised. The writers lack the skill, or motivation...this is HBO, to write something befitting the sophisticated mythos Herbert created. I'm neither too surprised or that disappointed because creating something that's commercially viable, while remaining very dense and sophisticated, is a tough call.

[@Whatisgoingonhere2021]

I'd put good money on the guild being a big part of the next movie and the series wasn't allowed to include them.

[@rickdalton6272]

I'm not watching anymore 6-8 episode seasons of anything anymore. 10 or plus epis!

[@addisonscott7808]

I guess depicting something as complicated as a Guild Navigator, would strain the production budget. I wonder how many of the Dune books the producer read before taking on this project?

[@LordOfNihil]

this is why the face dancer got seconds of screen time. the fact that i dont remember the character's name probibly isnt a good sign.

8:08 definitely

[@timothymorgan1175]

I loved both Villnue's DUNE movies, but I didn't care for him to make the Sisterhood the main power. And seems the show is following his focus. There making the Spacing Guild glorified trucking company.

[@brotherkellymatthewbarnes8882]

Netflix, *May thy blade chip and shatter.*

[@nurgle333]

Thanks for saving me the time wasted on this abomination! I'll keep watching your videos instead

[@PaulRidgeway-h7l]

Huge book fan (at least Frank’s books) - and I think shoes and movies ignore the guild because they don’t do anything. Sure they are this powerful political component - but until Edric they don’t have any real players of influencing the plot. It’s like doing a world war 2 movie and focusing on the motor pool and rear echelon logistics staff instead of spies and generals and battles.

[@kenaustinardenol1338]

The Dune Universe is simply to complicated to try to get it all in one series. And once again I think they should have started to explain it all with Vorian Atreides as central character as a guide through all the aspects of that universe. He was already there with the Titans, with the machines and the machine wars and far beyond till even Dune: Prophecy

[@bufordhighwater9872]

I agree with so much you say in regards to this series that I'll likely never watch. The problem is that we give a rat's ass about what happens in the Dune canon. We appreciate the original work for what it is, and accept its and Herbert's flaws. The production people, the studios, the money... They do not. At 8:35 You say "inspire them to read the books". That's not the point of this series. The point is to reap whatever profit can be made from the IP. The series isn't even really an expansion in Villeneuve's movies, as much as it just borrows the movie's aesthetics to attach itself to the movie for the sake of marketing. The people making the series don't care if anyone picks up the books; they don't make money from the books. If anything, they want people to avoid the books, so they can diverge from the source as much as needed with as little backlash as possible.

[@cscates3598]

The emphasis on the Bene Gesserit in this series is nothing more than displaying the strong female role. Which has been fashionable in this brave new world or ours 🙄 Dune is about the political high-wire balance between the Imperium, the Guild, and the Landsraad, full stop. You’re absolutely right about that. One note on the Mentats. From what I understand about the timeline in this series is that the Butlerian Jihad was only about 200 or less years before. Has the institution of the Mentats already been established prior to the Jihad? Two-hundred years is hardly enough time to turn humans into bio-computers. So, I can see why Mentats were not inserted into this series. One thing I love about his series is they stayed faithful to the look of Denis Villeneuve’s Dune adaptation.

[@douglassmith3016]

*What may be happening:* They showed a lot of ideas to see what worked and what didn't?

[@paulmacleod3559]

In my opinion placing this Dune TV show adaptation is, set 10,000 years before the events of Paul Atreides was a BIG mistake. Too much time between events and while the tv show does and doesn't caputre DUNE in essence. I can only hope for more atempts because I do like the 1984 movie and the 2000 Sci-Fi Channels series. They both were lacking but in the same way aluring, quizical, or at least they tried. Plots within plots, you see. ;) That said I will still watch, read, listen and admire this epic master piece Science Fiction, along with many others, until the day i die. Slainte mhath 🥃😁👍

[@carolynsaffoe8718]

This story is more about the Sisterhood than spice. I’m OK with not seeing too much about it. Also, just because a revelation throws something off, doesn’t mean that all the people are done with it. Think about what happened after the US civil war, the French Revolution and the breakup of the Soviet Union. Ex-slaves became sharecroppers, the French eventually end up with an Emperor and Russia democracy looks much like the old Soviet system with influence over most satellite states. It took the US system around a hundred years to progress. It took almost the same amount of time before France truly got rid of a monarch. We still have yet to see what is going on with Russia. I do find it credible that thinking machines are still around. The empress might be an expression of how some call themselves religious but are more interested in power and/or wealth than living their religion.

[@enochlamont877]

It's too bad they didn't have the vision and patience of the writers of The Wire. Each season focusing on a specific element of the Dune-iverse. Instead, they opted for the GoT model.

[@brotherkellymatthewbarnes8882]

If you read the prequels and the inbetweenquels you would know that they would be repulsed toward anything that simulates how the human 🧠 worked, and even more so with full on artificial intelligences. There also would be those who would be mortified.

[@chasx7062]

Arrakis is NOT widely known, coz the Spice is not widely known for more benefits

[@thecaptainsarse]

These people who write and produce these show have zero talent. They don’t care that they are destroying beloved franchises. They only see money. Stop giving it to them.

[@GeneraluStelaru]

To think I was excited when Villeneuve got to film Dune...

[@thenotoriousgryyn342]

I loved this series, looking forward to the second season 👍

[@Mark-hr9dy]

Some people are to easily pleased is all I can say. The show failed on all levels, especially given the amount of material to draw from and the success of the two Dune films. I asked my friends and work colleagues about the show? Many were unaware had never heard about it, those that had seen it hated it never got past episode 2. One person at work had watched all 6 episodes 'he’s a glutton for punishment’ he actually sat and watched all seasons of the dreadful Star Trek Discovery😵‍💫? Most people were confused and bored in equal measures, 'where’s Paul? If those two women are called Harkonnen why aren’t they bald? Where’s the Baron will he be in this?…Etc! Lacklustre characters poorly realised environments, poor writing and dialogue and plot points and history that made no sense? Add to that the annoying cast of plumby voiced actresses straight from central casting. Actors who would more fittingly belong in 'Eastenders’ ( an awful long running Cockney soap opera set in the east end of London on the BBC.) who on earth cast a scouser ( person from Liverpool) as the Atreides weapons trainer? The very moment he opened his mouth it immediately destroys any sense of place or wonder, drags you out of that futuristic environment. He looks like he accidentally wandered onto the wrong studio lot and was simply ushered in to wardrobe and handed some lines to say. He was actually hired by his agent to play a dodgy scouser car thief on a gritty kitchen sink drama he’s a 'scally from a council estate in Toxteth Liverpool ready to Knick some cars and sell you some wacky baccy. All the people I asked had actually gone to the cinema to watch the Dune films on IMAX and loved them especially the second one. This they didn’t like.👎

[@mr.agrawal970]

Even dune movie missed guild

[@joshuabrzezinski2828]

This show was bad, top to bottom, and all the way through!! It's a 4 out of 10 in my opinion, a week 4 at that. This was so disappointing, I expect much more from HBO. PENGUIN 🐧 Was a huge surprise being so good and engaging in every episode. But this is No Bueno!!

[@SigPuma]

Like Rings of Power, Dune Prophecy's writers are either not smart enough or lack the creative imagination (or both) to weave the actual Dune mythos into a compelling narrative.

[@SweetandFullofGrace]

Its hard to write scifi and fantasy if you havent read books on them and passionate about them, its EXTRA HARD to write Tolkien or Herbert world stories. You see most of the writers on these, I dont know how they were picked but they arent interested on our "nerd shit", they probably wanted to be tv writer for soap or drama, maybe write YA or drama stories. You can see it in these shows. They werent the ones going through libraries looking for great scifi books or re-read their favorite books. They didnt talk about them with their friends played pen&paper RPs, video games etc. basically they were just normies who wanted to be in the "biz" and hook onto anything which was just popular.

[@Danielscuriosity2]

i assume the writer is having a headache; Dune itself is always terrible at compromising on having visual shows of Dune, Prophecy itself maybe a season of contemplation and assessment because It is Dune, its difficult to write a show of Dune because its always not about the culture but the inner dialogue of a character written so. Hence to write Dune, you have to be as radical as Frank Herbert which is a Mental achievement on itself i think to write dune, is to abandon a typical television rules and write it like a philosophy and then pass it on to a screenplay writer in order to make sense, but no, i have hope this is just test runs because i hope the executives understand Dune will be successful if one can mapped the uncharted territory that is dune, there will be trial and errors and they must absorb the losses from the show and risk for season 2 where they have to be in this keyword: Radical.

[@behavior852]

When did film productions become so wimpy?! No Guts! No Glory! Literally.

[@asdisskagen6487]

The complete dearth of competence and intellectual prowess rampant in the current crop of writers in Hollywood, coupled with the bizarre ideology of "wokeness," dooms any production no matter how rich the source material.

[@tedbosquez19]

I was so excited with the high production values in episode one and the acting but the first season let me down and I walked away. Such a wasted opportunity … half assed effort by the writers and showrunners …

[@Unknown31212]

With all the corporate shenanigans going on at HBO/Max I doubt anything decent coming out of them. 6 to 8 episodes for thier recent series seasons is disappointed.

[@shanenolan5625]

If memory serves the machines didn't have lasguns,

[@mcmarkmarkson7115]

Na, the show is dead. I could not finish even the first episode. There is no way I'm going to watch season 1 even if season 2 turns out well. Its also very unlikely that they would put more effort into a second season after at best luke warm reception.

[@LazloVimes]

In all fairness, Herbert himself severely fumbled the use of spice and it doesnt even make sense in his own book.

[@deanmartins360]

Pitre De Vries was addicted to Sapho Juice.

[@NerdCookies]

Sapho juice has a clear purpose for Mentats. He's actually addicted to spice.

[@deanmartins360]

@ I agree about the purposeful use of Sapho. Piter has many addictions, like Semuta but the Spice is emphasized more. I was pointing out other drugs named, for the casuals who read comments. I am sure you are well versed in Dune lore, that’s why I love your channel! Keep up the good work!