Orc Women, Children, & Families | Tolkien Explained

[@NerdoftheRings]

Personally, I think Haradrim and Easterlings would have been far more effective as sympathetic villains, but what do you think? Does this concept resonate with you? Or does it miss the mark?

[@Dumbledore6969x]

@@NerdoftheRings it’s terrible. This whole show is. As soon as they introduced black hobbits and elves I knew we were in for a ride 😵‍💫

[@stuartpenzer773]

It's alright, I do agree that the men who served morgoth would have been better (we had a bit of it in season 1) Sadly there are alot of people just trying to push they're own agenda's who have little knowledge of tolkiens work (both in support of and condemning the show)

[@gurentgc3546]

​@@MrRayRockstar LoTR and Warcraft are completely different works.

[@jhf2121]

​@@Dumbledore6969x why would diverse casting in a fantasy setting make you think that? There's nothing about employing black people that made the showrunners play fast and loose with the source material.

[@trap41sosa78]

Thanks for clearing that up for me I always thought they just sprung out the ground like in the movies 😂 or had to be dugout

[@ghostlyfieldclub2930]

Child orc at dinner time: "FATHER! is there meat on the menu today?"

[@A_Random_Person27]

Father Orc: "It was off the menu for the last week, but guess what...."

[@MosaiFn]

​@@A_Random_Person27MEAT'S BACK ON THE MENU BOY

[@smosmo4617]

" can we eat mom"? " she looks fresh 😍😂

[@rajaalghul]

This show is trash. Tolkien said orcs were evil creatures. Not mommy and daddy staying home to take care of little jr and play ball in the fields of gorgoroth. Get real

[@DarthBoardBVE]

"Sure, you look fresh, kid!" (I feel any orc child asking this question would only get to ask once.)

[@TheLordUrban]

I don’t think orc women and children are a problem. I think loving and devoted orc parents are.

[@Hydelsius]

The way all the Orcs act, you can tell they were brought up in a rough, unsupportive family 😅

[@SirBoggins]

They're inherently evil so yes.

[@AnxiousPanini]

@@SirBoggins Did you even watch the video? Orcs are not "inherently" evil because Tolkien, a devout catholic, despised the idea that an entire race can be wholly evil.

[@morgomi]

I don't feel a "love" when I watch this scene. just a creature with babies.

[@Purplesquirrel31]

we saw a male check on a female and infant for less than 3 seconds. I'd hardly call that 'loving.' Even scorpions and rats care for their young. It's one of the top three most universal instinct across all life forms. Yet orcs cannot...?

[@cheynewillingham2107]

Nothing about Orcs screams "Monogamy", but now that you mention it, they were all held together by a Ring.

[@StavrosMueller93]

Grade A comment 😂

[@Henez89]

Bravo sir 🎉

[@SusanTalbot-c3q]

Some of them but not before it existed.

Wasn't it Margoth who made Orcs?

[@cheynewillingham2107]

Truly it is so. And just like any dutiful father, he left this plan of existence to allow his children to be bond eternally to his personal assistant with a beautiful ring. So admirable.

[@AlexisLopez-pb8ms]

I swear if I see an Orc baby in a high chair next episode, I’m going to lose it😂😂

[@DFMoray]

I hope you aren’t paying for it and giving them steaming views, that encourages them.

[@AlexisLopez-pb8ms]

@@DFMoray nope, I don’t have an Amazon subscription. I find ways to watch this abomination.

[@herbsuperb6034]

Sure hope so. The show's not good for much else. A few good laughs from time to time would be welcome. But it takes itself way too seriously, and therein lies the problem.

[@nocgenius5255]

You are all such losers ​@@DFMoray

[@AngelofDethMetal]

Haradrim/Easterlings would’ve not only been better candidates for exploring this type of moral grey area but also would’ve allowed for diversity inclusion within the existing canon. Plus it would’ve been a really fresh, exciting storyline for hardcore/casual fans alike. A rare win-win-win situation.

[@BlindTimeLord]

Oh totally :)

[@CVoYager]

Unfortunately writers and show runners are not that smart.

[@BlindTimeLord]

@@CVoYager Yep, that's unfortunately true

[@EstyVids]

When the casting was announced I was so excited that they were going to expand on these largely unexplored cultures. I imagined Lenny Henry as one of the Blue Wizards struggling against Sauron manipulating their largely justified resentment and hatred of the Numenoreans, or perhaps he was going to play one of their leaders who would be lured into accepting one of the nine rings and slowly fading to the will of Sauron. Instead, he was cast as the leader of a psychopathic band of not-Hobbits.

[@goransekulic3671]

Yes, but inclusivity and diversity is not really about representation. It's about ego and who does what(similar to how modern feminists aren't really about 50 / 50, but more about matriarchy and giving all the "nice jobs" to women). Ofc that with those two regions, they would have all the freedom of representation they wanted, but that's not the point. Them "leaving their mark on Tolkien(and history)" is the point. And as such, ofc they need to strongarm their feeble ideas where they don't belong.

[@Pseedholm]

I think the complaints stem from the “loving family unit” not so much the orcs having sexual relations with female orcs.

[@LuisSierra42]

Yeah, they are orcs and have grown in a war and violence ridden environment. The writers really didn't think this through

[@wonkywaddlingwaterwingedwriter]

Which is idiotic cuz they're twisted elves lol

[@davidjones272]

It was a 2 second clip showing an orc father, mother and child. It didn't show "a loving family" beyond the orcs apparently expressing concern for their progeny; something pretty much every mammal does.

[@LuisSierra42]

@@davidjones272 how do you know Orcs are mammals?

[@Pseedholm]

⁠​⁠@@davidjones272 firstly, she had completed pregnancy and had the baby. Second: The scene was obviously meant to illustrate an orcs concern for the wellbeing of his female partner and their baby orc. He obviously has quite a bit of affection for them if he’s even superficially concerned enough to talk to the “father of all orcs” about it.

[@awesomehpt8938]

Honestly I’d rather watch orcs just be taken out of holes in the ground than watch orcs doing the deed.

[@solotopfeeder6976]

Or maybe like some beasts, living in holes or like a tribal bestial-like people living in huts and all sons of an overlord who gets breeding rights out of strength and combat. Like lions, the dominant kills the offspring of other males... that would be badass. Thats how I roll my DnD orcs. But I like the Warhammer 40K hypothesis too. lol.

[@LuisSierra42]

Thanks for the wholesome images this sentence has conjured up in my mind

[@nanyafahkinbiznes1352]

For real. Only Japanese high fantasy can make such "thing"

[@JahnosSardonis]

You have lots of Hentai for that.

[@tracym8952]

I swear everyone forgot the two towers

[@BrotherhoodWorkshop]

I greatly appreciate that you don't get sucked into the toxic discourse about this show. While I definitely have my own (and strong) opinions, your level headed and fair handed approach is much more healthy for the public conversation.

[@NerdoftheRings]

Thanks so much my friend!!

[@lobato87]

he’s paid up

[@johnmooers5594]

Again, this returns us to the "how long do Orcs live" question. Since Gorbag and Shagrat CLEARLY remember a time "before the big bosses" they must have been around since before 2942 3rd Age when Sauron returned to Barad Dur. This would make them both OLDER than 77 years of the Sun. The Great Goblin and his cronies in his Throne Room instantly recognize Glamdring and Orcrist ON SIGHT despite neither being seen wielded for the last 6,462 years. If anything this gives credence to the "ruined form of Elves" theory on Orc longevity. Alternatively, Tolkien didn't have time to retcon things before he died as he did with changing the "Riddles in the Dark" chapter in the Hobbit.

[@dallinadams9422]

Two thoughts, for the orcs talking about the old days, it could be from their fathers or grandfathers who lived in that manner before the return of Sauron, that or the orcs were more relaxed before the start of the war and were a bit more independent until they were all marshaled by the dark lord. As for Orcrist and Glamdring which are both 1st Age Weapons, they may have been heirlooms that were used by elves in Eriador for slaying orcs throughout the 2nd and 3rd ages before they joined the trolls' stash of loot. In which case the tales and memories of those blades could be much more fresh than the wars of the First Age.

[@johnmooers5594]

@@dallinadams9422 If elves recovered those swords in the second age they would have been kept instead of being in a trolls cave. IRT memories from orc ancestors, Gorbag clearly is speaking about HIS own life ergo he’s at least 90 years old.

[@mokarokas-1727]

@@johnmooers5594 Could've been found by humans, perhaps..? I don't see how the trolls could get their hands on them otherwise.

[@bradleywoods3742]

I think that the goblins recognise it because those weapons may have reached a level of infamy within the orc society as being orc killers, not so much because the orcs were alive to see those weapons 6000 years ago. Not only that but the goblin king likely sensed old elven magic that would have been used in the creation of the weapons. On your other point, the date that Sauron returns to Barad Dur is not necessarily the date that he consolidates all his power and rounds up his armies, he likely already had a sizable force in Barad Dur even before his return, and only a few decades later when he feels like its time to prepare for an offensive is when he calls for all the orcs of mordor to come under his banner.

[@josephfisher426]

@@johnmooers5594 The narrative about the battles of the Dwarves and Orcs suggests that they were of a similar lifespan...

[@DavidMacDowellBlue]

"For myself, I pity even his (Sauron's) slaves" --Gandalf the White, THE RETURN OF THE KING. The whole idea that Orcs even in part are corrupted Men and/or Elves fills me with horror and pity. Tolkien was not someone who lacked nuance, who thought no evil could be redeemed or that no good could not be corrupted. It is an essential part of his legendarium.

[@davecorry7723]

I'd love the show to pivot into an Orc sitcom. Daddy Orc finding it difficult holding-down a job looting and pillaging. Mammy Orc constantly redecorating the family grotto to keep-up with the Mizhnaks next door. Teen Daughter Orc staying out far too late with her friends. Young, intelligent Son Orc, innocently questioning every facet of the Orc lifestyle. Such potential ...

[@jdrvargo287]

You joke, but I would totally check that out.😂 Someone should make that a skit.

[@Elena-ce8ek]

Lmao 🎉

[@BlindTimeLord]

As you say, depicting the Herodrim and Easterlings would be a far better option than the Orcs. I highly doubt Amazon is going to do this though unfortunately

[@kennethsatria6607]

I bet they're under the impression they're doing something bold and brash by trying to do Warcraft orc humanizing characterization and lore situations for Lotr orcs, disregarding the world of difference between the depictions of the species

[@BlindTimeLord]

@@kennethsatria6607 Probably, however what can you do? I just hope that they don't make out the Stranger to be Gandalf. I think if they do i'll be done with the show

[@Oscar_the_fascist_slayer]

I feel like depecting sympathetic orcs in tolkeins world could only really work in the fourth age after the fall of Sauron. No more big bosses to serve, the orcs are finally free of evil influence and can live in peace alongside men and elves

[@Spobbles69420]

@@Oscar_the_fascist_slayer the orcs are actually based on transgender people so naturally they can’t be redeemed and instead have to be entirely destroyed to save the world from their blight.

[@BlindTimeLord]

@@Oscar_the_fascist_slayer Thing is that wouldn't work unfortunately because in the lore I believe the Orcs died out after Sauron was defeated

[@Strider-bl5sq]

I love the conversation that Sam overhears in ROTK between the two orcs which just for me personally really did a lot to make them seem a bit more sympathetic and relatable

[@RaccoonRepublic]

This is actually a really, really good point. The degree of dialogue between orcs in that scene makes it very clear that the orcs have a mindset which is capable of conceptualizing self-determination or individualistic desire and war weariness. Their conversation is more comparable to soldiers in deployment than mindless drones. Corrupted as they may be, it is still possible that they retain certain human-like elements. I really feel like the wild hatred of Rings of Power comes often (not always, but sometimes) from people who are jumping on the bandwagon and assuming that because it came from Amazon it must be bad - many of whom may not have read the books personally, or even (in some cases) watched the shows for themselves.

[@rosesweetcharlotte]

​@@RaccoonRepublicI agree. It just feels like low hanging fruit

[@lucagerulat307]

​@@RaccoonRepublic I recently reread that part and it seems obvious that the orks are more victims of sauron than evil creatures. It explicitly states that most of saurons servants are against their will serving him. I think that's not just talking about his human servants.

[@jonathanfoutz8931]

@@RaccoonRepublicI agree about the bandwagon folks. But the show is really bad.

[@rashidadams8327]

That’s probably my favourite part of the books! Do you recall which chapter that was in? 🤔

[@dianneketler7128]

Excellent video, as always. Appreciate your research and take on the situation! Your channel is such a valuable source of information.

[@octaviusv]

I've thought of it more as an issue of these Orcs being less fallen than the Orcs we see in Lord of the Rings. They are led by a first-generation Orc, are 3000+ years prior to the War of the Ring, are not enthralled by the One Ring, and have come out of generations separated from both Morgoth and Sauron. They are clearly attempting to chart a path of their own, and I think we can see the glimmer of light that will be snuffed out.

[@sarupadilla]

No. That's called fan fiction. As the video points out, Tolkien is very clear they were evil by nature, and were evil in deeds of their own volition, even to the detriment of Morgoths plans. They were corrupted beyond redemption well before the events of the second age. This is nonsense that doesn't even serve the plot of the show.

[@octaviusv]

@@sarupadilla Tolkein struggled with the idea of any of Eru's creations being corrupted beyond redemption - and, indeed, Orcs are not irredeemable. Fans have also long theorized about Orcs and their inner lives. Being led by a first generation Orc/first generation Elf opens up possibilities not available within the written text. Furthermore, the Rings of Power is itself "fan-fiction" in the sense that it departs liberally from the texts as received so as to compress timelines, and allows for odd or illogical things such as the lack of active, independent trade between Lindon and Eregion. (Travellers would have long seen the bridge had fallen and reported back to both Lindon and Eregion that the route through was broken, or the lack of anybody coming from the other would have been a clear sign that something was wrong.) So yeah, it's headcannon, but it's headcannon for this series alone, and I don't believe it falls beyond the limits of the written text. It does not rest within center of canonical orthodoxy, but I think it rests better within the confines of the orthodox than would the plainly heterodox of troll families looking like human families rather than (say) sea otter families.

[@sarupadilla]

@@octaviusv No. The issue that falls indisputably outside the lore and the confined vision Tolkien had is the concept of a family. Yes, they could reproduce, but by Tolkien's own implications, it took a tyrannical authority to engage them in such. Notice how Tolkien always used the term "breeding" to refer to Orcs reproducing. This implies that although Orcs reproduced in the same manner as men, that does not automatically imply they had families, and quite the contrary, by everything we were told by Tolkien, Orc reproduction more likely implied a four letter word that starts with r and ends with ape that Tolkien was too tasteful to be explicit about. But he was sufficiently clear about it. This was the manner in which Morgoth, Sauron, and Saruman BRED them. So no, stopping to ponder weather Orcs were loving parents and husbands in a family unit is completely out of canon, out of world, and way outside the vision and reasons Tolkien had for Orcs being as they were. And yes, Tolkien did, once, mention how he struggled with the idea of any creature existing beyond redemption, but that is outside his clear descriptions that within his canon, Orcs were irredeemably evil since even when not commanded, they would naturally engage in evil deeds of and for their own pleasure. So yes. Orcs did reproduce, and could even have lines of succession. That does not mean that they had loving family units, but quite the contrary.

[@elephantman2854]

​@@sarupadilla Are you an orc? Isnt the whole vid, and much discussion in general about the inherent evilness of orcs

[@elephantman2854]

​@@sarupadillaAnimals breed, and orcs are often described as bestial or animalistic. Many animals care for children (spawn if you want) and then randomly other eat them or abandon them. It fits perfectly

[@dimitravog9000]

Great video Matt ❤ no click bait titles, no exaggerated thumbnails, just true Tolkien. Your videos always clearly show that you respect, know and understand Tolkien. Mindless negativity about everything these days is so trending, it’s refreshing to hear your thoughts. Keep it up!

[@raytherubio]

Couldn’t agree more! Way to do your own thing and really know the source material

[@Tar-Elenion]

"No one would see him, no one would notice him, till he had his fingers on their throat. Only a few hours ago he had worn it, and caught a small goblin-imp. How it squeaked! He still had a bone or two left to gnaw, but he wanted something softer." The Hobbit, Riddles in the Dark

[@lilitharam44]

Gollum when he lived in the mountain with the orcs. He hated them too.

[@camojoe83]

Goblins aren't orcs and never have been.

[@istari0]

@@camojoe83 Tolkien said they were two different words for the same creature.

[@Franzsyztem]

@@camojoe83 they are in this universe.

[@camojoe83]

@@Franzsyztem i don't believe that's so. Why bother to make the distinction if they're the same? They were clearly different in the books, anyway. Mentioned alongside each other certainly, but always individually.

[@saulcaspamiranda3654]

"There is no question who I will be rooting for, if any of this orcs meets someone like Elrond on the battlefield". I seriously thought he was going to say the orcs.

[@marvinloganjr]

I appreciated the offering of a glimpse of what could be possible without Sauron's influence. I think the show offers small tidbits of possibilities that will never be explored. That's the point. It's how you further establish Sauron as a cancer.

[@awesomehpt8938]

The thing is though is that in rings of power the orcs don’t just express an unwillingness to serve Sauron they actually go ahead and try to outright kill him. In the books Sauron is quite able to inspire fear and control over them that so much so that it’s never written that orcs have ever directly rebelled against him. Orcs don’t really have a choice of leadership when there’s a dark lord to control them. And also the idea of orcs having loving families like humans and elves is just too much. They should have tried to come up with some kind of system or behaviour that matches the cruelty and carelessness that orcs possess.

[@DominusObiscum]

That scene was like how many seconds long but i'm amazed at how much controversy that little scene is to everyone, like it's sacrilege of the highest order - oh no its not Canon down with Amazon - gods its so taxing to imagine people watching a show to only find faults.

[@SarastistheSerpent]

The idea that they would try to kill him is stupid, but it is definitely canonically accurate that the orcs hated both Sauron and Morgoth.

[@mindstalk]

"that it’s never written that orcs have ever directly rebelled against him." The relatively new _Nature of Middle-earth_ actually kind of has that, with a passage about Second Age orcs far from Beleriand, used to independence, laughing at Sauron in his fair form. "But further East there were more and stronger kinds, descendants of Morgoth’s kingship, but long masterless during his occupation of Thangorodrim, they were yet wild and ungovernable,... while he was obliged for the cozening of Western Men and Elves to wear as fair a form and countenance as he could, they despised him and laughed at him."

[@professorhaystacks6606]

@@mindstalk Though even there it seems implied they wouldn't go against him directly, but would rather undermine him as best they could. It's an unclear point. I personally picture the Orcs as having an instinctive fear of Morgoth's power, which Sauron knows how to imitate, if imperfectly.

[@alextu_Music]

While there's no denying that Orc-women exist, I think it's much more likely that Morgoth and Sauron would have kept them specifically for breeding. Basically, they were breeding slaves. This would explain how they were able to grow their armies so exponentially.

[@S.allamerican]

I think when Sauron takes over by the end of season 2. That's exactly what Sauron will do.

[@godzillamaster34]

At this point neither of them are in charge in the show.

[@poilk91]

​@@godzillamaster34 Independent orcs are no kinder or gentler than their dominated kind and are repeatedly said to hate each other and enjoy inflicting evil. Whatever a natural orc life cycle would look like it wouldn't be loving or protective

[@S.allamerican]

@@godzillamaster34 Sauron will take over by the end of the season. He's probably going to kill Adar.

[@godzillamaster34]

@@S.allamerican yeah I’d hope so lol. It’d be kinda weird imo for Sauron to be stood up by some orcs for more than this season.

[@pretzelman945]

4:22 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣i absolutely love the gimli impression here Fantastic detail

[@noblemily]

Glad to know someone feels the same.

[@Jakblade]

😂😂😂😂😂

[@ZachRouge113]

Sorry for the essay .. I think there is a very large difference between being free of Sauron and doing good things. They want to be free of war, to be free to loot, murder and torture. The orcs would be evil and do evil things even without sauron because of the corruption from Morgoth. They openly talk about looting, plundering and assumedly murdering people mostly just for the enjoyment of it. I think they'd be quite happy to find a nice spot where they could murder and rob without fear of being killed in turn. Being born and raised where both parents probably subscribe to this way of thinking plus a brutal childhood is unlikely to produce morally good individuals.

[@IvarTheBoneless40]

But i dont think they would do this all the time there are 365 days in a year and i will not believe that orc are evil 24/7 365 days a year that can not be. Cause even if you look at very evil people there not evil 24/7 365 days a year, there traveling together, eating together, sleeping together, mating together, talking together.

[@ZachRouge113]

@IvarTheBoneless40 I don't know, I know Shadow of Mordor wasn't cannon, but it's a good representation of what I think life around orcs would be. Casual random murder torturing the weak for fun. I think its an admirable trait of humanity is we are willing to try to see the good in everything, and sometimes their just isn't any.

[@ArthurGoria]

So like, vikings?

[@ZachRouge113]

@ArthurGoria I mean fair point, but vikings were only a part of Norse society, not the entirety of it. Plus, the vikings usually set up trade almost as often as they raided. You don't see a whole lot of trade with orcs.

[@ArthurGoria]

@@ZachRouge113 Yeah! I was just joking lol Tbf, my honest opinion about it is that I prefer when lore is a vehicle for stories, not the road itself, You know what I mean? Like, if the show creators made a good story about orcs who'd like to live a normal life, I would find it cool. The problem I have is that the stories being told are just bad.

[@chickenporkadob0]

the issue is not the reproducing. the issue was they have a loving family.

[@DarkSide_Gaming21338]

Yes I would agree with that and also add that it’s more than just the whole family aspect. I think it’s more of a it is not in their nature to just be like ya I don’t wanna fight anymore I just want to live and be free. Like it said in the letter they are creatures who enjoy fighting with not just the free people but also themselves. They are very self centered and cruel beings who enjoy committing wicked deeds, taking pleasure in the act. Maybe they aren’t all as cruel and wicked at heart and maybe if they could grow in an environment that was not either the strong survive and the weak die or under the command of a dark lord maybe just maybe they would have a chance. Though when they are seen as the enemies of the free people and the policy is basically kill on site it is very unlikely that such an event would come to pass.

[@Blimey2342]

Hello there!

[@ryanhebertson7457]

Nazis loved their children

[@johnsnow5968]

I'll be honest though- based on how brutally violent orks are even with each other, if you were trying to "breed the perfect warrior race" making sure the females were the most fiercely protective mothers possible would be one of the only ways to keep your army from just eating itself as every young ork would just be killed by an older stronger ork.

[@Bitchslapper316]

@@johnsnow5968 He intentionally used wording like "breeding an army". Take a look at how humans breed dogs and it makes more sense. Unlike dogs orcs don't get sent or sold to loving owners as soon as they can been weened off their mother, they get sent to a dark lord or Orc boss where they are indoctrinated and trained.

[@MagicScientist]

This feels like a similar debate that has been going on within the Dungeons & Dragons community for decades now. Within that community, orcs and goblins have pretty solidly been promoted from simply servants of evil, to fully realized people with their own free will, as capable of being good or evil as men, elves, dwarves and hobbits.

[@pablopandolfo8446]

and that's good.

[@f.b.l.9813]

@@pablopandolfo8446 and that's bad, just let bad guys be bad guys

[@solarisdevorak]

Or to each their own ​@@f.b.l.9813

[@rogaineablar5608]

Hell, B2 had wives/consorts for one of the chieftains and that was 1986

[@kylepessell1350]

Orcs have always had free will and are capable of being good and evil. It was simply far more skewed towards evil because orcs in lore were created specifically by Gruumsh to serve as soldiers for his eternal blood feud with Corellon and thus he made sure that their minds and cultures were heavily seeped in his influence so that they had a proclivity for violence and an innate hatred for elves. This concept was drawn from Tolkien's own depiction of orcs. It makes zero sense for an evil god to allow their creation anonymity in any appreciable degree so you'd have to change that lore and consequently change everything about orc history. At which point can you still call them orcs? They are totally different creatures that just happen to share the same name. In my opinion, that ruins the most interesting thing about the orcs and just makes them another fantasy re-skinned human. There is so much potential for exploring the nature of evil that just goes to waste with the new changes as there is no longer any controversy to make you think more deeply about the topic.

[@juliemarie612]

Thanks for bringing this up. I've seen youtubers (whose jobs are based on knowing tolkiens material) scoff at the scene and say, "that's not how orcs are made". Even though the scene with Saruman was a movie invention, a lot of people see that as the way orcs come to be. I understand people not liking the show, it does make huge lore changes. But for me, I can watch it and enjoy it in a vacuum without raging over lore changes. I'm not gonna lie, I do wish I was seeing a book-accurate version, cause it would be better that way. But I'm not about to set up my tripod and yell into a youtube video for two hours about it

[@HuginnHufflepuff]

Well, those guys likely don’t watch the show for entertainment, just to have an excuse to rant. Let’s face it, there’s like three options for how orcs are made: the show version, the mud pits, or (God forbid) the “Goblin Slayer” version. And if people want that last version they are sick in the head and clearly don’t understand Tolkien.

[@riftvallance2087]

It definitely wasn't made up for the movie, in unfinished tales Tolkien states they orcs are made from dirt and clay and animated to a semblance of life through Saurons dark will then later changing it to being elves twisted by dark magic. The movie makes use of both explanations , although i think the implications in the movie is that its only Sauromons Urukai that are created from dirt

[@fervor-craft]

I think the depiction of the Orcs simply serves the multiple storylines about the tragedy of decline and downfall of different factions and realms while Sauron's rise to power. That's the overall point to me: They are a tortured people with the right to self-determination but because of the things they willingly choose to do, they are still villains in the end. They have the capability to do good, but they don't.

[@Okamiiee]

Honestly.. this is a great video man! Seriously appreciate your knowledge of middle earth while still trying to still trying to understand Rings of Power but not blatantly sucking up to everything they do.. sharing what Tolkien said and how it differentiates from the show helps people make their own conclusions.

[@matthiaswuest7271]

I'm honestly not sure what the big deal is. I still don't see the orcs as sympathetic villains -- but I see them holding on to vestiges of "humanity" (read: desire for home, right to exist) that their elf ancestors surely had long ago. By the time LOTR rolls around that would have been long gone

[@matthiaswuest7271]

That being said the way the orc family is portrayed in the show felt a bit goofy. So idk

[@aquilarossa5191]

What interests me about orcs is perhaps Tolkien's only admission of allegory in his work relating to our own world. He viewed the Industrial Revolution's destruction of the English countryside as a darkness threatening to engulf all the land. A similar theme to the book Watership Down. If I understand that correctly, then the working class city dwellers of industrialized societies are the orcs. They have families. Populations stopped working the fields and moved to the towns and cities to work in the factories and mines etc. They became the workforce of the very thing Tolkien said was destroying what he loved. The shires of England. That would make the so called captains of industry like Sauron's officers and lieutenants etc.

[@BBirke1337]

Gollum used to eat orc children, while living under the Misty Mountains. It's described in The Hobbit, how he used the ring to sneak up to them. For RoP, it's a bit playing around, depicing them as not-so-evil. Adar seems to be not all-evil. But in reality, one can see a scene, like the orc family in RoP, among gangs and prison thugs, once outside, or ravaging mercenaries, any kind of worst scum.

[@mon_moi]

On a related note about Haradrim and Easterlings being represented, i don't understand the point of sending the harfeet and the Stranger to Rhûn and not showing a single Easterling who isn't stereotypically evil looking yet (assuming that's the direction they're going with the dark wizard). And i really don't wanna drag the representation/diversity nonsense into this conversation, but I'd much rather have seen just normal ass inhabitants of Rhûn played by Asian actors instead of multiethnic Stoor hobbits with Celtic names (which they'd only acquire by the time they settle near Dunland, possibly in the Third Age, far from Rhûn). I'm just saying, they're really, really missing an opportunity by not showing us more Easterlings and Blue Wizards.

[@bonhommierr1501]

exactly, the issue is not that there is diversity or representation, is that the diversity and representation given makes no sense in either a fictional or real-world sense, while there are many occasions to portray diversity? The way ethnic diversity is pictured in RoP doesn't make any sense, while other fantasy franchises (GoT, HotD) manage it without issue, which helps in the suspension of disbelief.

[@MartainnMacaBhaillidh]

"The Dark Wizard" really exploring the nuance of good and evil with that one. The cretins who write this garbage couldn't even just commit to a name. No, no... can't be doing without pointless mystery-boxes to drag out accross the whole season. Is the "Strager" Gandalf - or Grand Elf, or Gand Elf... Who cares.

[@professorhaystacks6606]

@@bonhommierr1501 Minor point: Rhun is western Asia, from what we'd call Russia now down to the Black Sea. Though a 'catch-all' term for anything east of the Sea of Rhun, you'd expect to see mostly people from that area. Though I don't know enough about the inhabitants of the region pre-history to know what they'd have looked like. Similarly (though not mentioned) the Haradrim were from what we would call North Africa. While Numenoreans explored sub-Saharan Africa ("Far Harad"), we aren't ever told much about it.

[@LaffeeTaffeeGG]

Honestly... I always considered the breeding of orcs to be sort of like the breeding of the wives in Mad Max: Fury Road. A single chieftain with a harem of different females that he simply impregnates, they rip the newborn out of her, inspect it for signs of weakness, chuck it off the cliff if it's missing an arm or a leg or is too puny, then shove an axe in its little fist and train it to be a soldier. There is no real love between orc males and females, and no parental love from an orc parent to an orc child. Maaaaaaybe pride? Maybe disappointment? But I imagine an orc's response to his own son getting hacked down in front of him would be "mediocre!" instead of tears.

[@ThePVTfaszkivan]

And they can interbreed so add some elven and human females to the mix.

[@kuelexx5451]

Thank you for clearing this stuff up. Or making it muddying it. either way, you've made videos about orcs in the past and thank you for spending time to go a little deeper

[@Tyrany42]

Honestly I love orcs, whether they're savage monsters or sympathetic brutes. Exploring different sides of orcs in different franchises is what keeps them interesting. That said, orc families are probably the least of the show's problems.

[@nothing09832]

Exactly. ROP isn't a good show but parts like this are great.

[@nathan8464]

It seems so out of character for orcs to be this sympathetic. I generally saw them as the hand of evil in middle earth and they played a really good part in the story like that.

[@sasquatchcrew]

maybe its just these specific orc characters? Could be a unique case maybe

[@keikun145]

soon you'll see orc porn

[@greywolf7577]

I always saw Orcs as just violent thugs rather than evil per se. They were led by Sauron to do evil, but ultimately they just wanted to pillage. You can pillage and still love your family.

[@Ogk7484-m9q]

Probably it's because they are under the rule of adar and not sauron

[@Upside687]

Did you even watch the video?

[@Darkfrog24]

I think that showing an orc baby and showing Adar's efforts to create an independent orcish kingdom are very poignant when layered on top of Lord of the Rings because we will never find out whether the orcs could have climbed out of the pit Morgoth dug for them and become something more.

[@danieloneal7137]

Been a Tolkien fan for 40 years. Couldn’t get past the second episode of that show.

[@danielbanbury378]

Fully agree on all points and definitely hope they refocus as time goes more onto the Haradrim instead, there is really good reason why Sauron was able to bring them under his sway

[@truemrfu9673]

So if men could become orc like under morgoths control, it’s plausible that orcs could show more humanly behavior when they are protected from morgoth and Sauron. And considering that’s Adars entire thing, it makes complete sense to me. This is a non issue (so far) imo.

[@declancampbell1277]

i would agree if not the nature of their corruption, and the fact that once sauron dies everything tied to him (by magic) dies too. in the 4th age pretty much everything magical has fled middle earth tbh, and it seems saurons death was the catalyst for it.

[@guypradel8874]

I like this idea of orcs gaining (or regaining) more humanity after their masters are defeated.

[@AdrielOliveiraGuitar]

One thing I wouldn't let out of this topic, is the influence of their leader. In the show, Adar treats the orcs as living beings who deserve a place in the middle earth. That said, to me it feels quite ok for some of them not wanting to go to war, or exhibiting some measure of care about their spawn.

[@dougmphilly]

He is depicted as one of the earliest orcs. There might be enough elf in him just to want to be left alone like the avari or dark elves.

[@Bubbel-cm8ei]

@@dougmphillywhy wouldn’t he have been killed though? He clearly undermines the authority of morgoth and Sauron and creates an opportunity of rebellion

[@eduardobarron8868]

the rings of power was made in mockery to Tolkien

[@nekiyia]

No!

[@AUZlE]

That's a fact, anyone saying otherwise is simply dense.

[@nekiyia]

@@AUZlE NO!

[@lordterra1377]

​@@nekiyia Woke c4ncer.

[@justingreen7984]

@@AUZlE I agree.. and then they use a whole argument of "well this is our take on Tolkien in our times" like what?

[@mattnajewicz3176]

This sheds soooo much light on the series. Good stuff

[@ThePelargirPodcast-ec5vt]

As always, your calm and respectful approach to things like this, paired with the amount of detailed research you put into your videos makes this channel stand out in a sea of ignorant, arguing talking heads. I refuse to watch ROP for a lot of reasons, but I still tune in to your videos on discussions relating to it, because I know that your info will be balanced and well thought out. Thank you for what you do.

[@samus598]

It seems to me that RoP set up the orc family we see as those who are not currently under the direct control of Sauron. It makes sense for them to be less brutal and hateful while under Adar, who we see treating them with more respect.

[@noblemily]

Excellent point.

[@_iao_]

This. The dynamic works because they are under the respectful and loving leadership of kin, their "lordfather" Adar, instating the family unit tradition he experienced first hand. Without him they will be totally lost and their nature will be exploited by Sauron and Saruman.

[@kierianiis]

Exactly! People are just freaking out because they have to think about orcs as more than cannon fodder! Yes, they’re eventually going to be under Sauron, and the show is depicting that as something that is sad! This is not the end of the world!

[@EstyVids]

@@_iao_ A loving and caring corrupt Elf is as antithetical to Tolkien as the doting, dutiful daddy orc.

[@haha__hihi]

But this video itself proved that when without unifying force of dark lord, these independent orcs are even more chaotic, uncooperative and without agenda while they are still very much naturally evil without need for influence of dark lord. If anything, I'd expect Adar's orcs to behave more like the orcs from watchtower in LOTR where they were slaughtering each other. Tbh, I doubt there wouldn't be an orc trying to murder Adar and take his position if they were not ruled by fear. Jealousy and desire are strong in all orcs.

[@Aedanthefirst]

Personally I find the concept of Orcs having loving families to be an interesting concept

[@wingedhussar2909]

Just that it goes against everything in their corrupted nature.

[@patricksheperd560]

Never ask Nerd of the Rings for advice, for he will answer No and Yes.

[@justingreen7984]

but what about "yes and no" see that could be different

[@patricksheperd560]

@@justingreen7984 Mathematically, if you add +1 and subtract -1, you are left with 0. On the other hand, if you subtract -1 and then add +1, you are still left with 0. So yes, the process is technically different, but the result is the same. In short, No and Yes.

[@justingreen7984]

@@patricksheperd560 hey how did you know I was talking mathematically? did we just become best friends?

[@UntamedStrange]

I was wondering about this the other day. I don’t watch the Rings of Power but love LOTR. Been indulging in so much lore! This is a timely video for me!

[@PhilipBlair-by7ic]

great analysis and perfect explanation I think Tolkien would love this Channel and video in particular

[@MinusGreen1]

I liked the family unit thing. This is to Obviously put Adar in a position of a savior for them. Sauron knows he cant undermine Adar right now, so once Sauron kills Adar he will promise to “take care” of their orc families in exchange for an army of them, continuing his manipulation of ALL societies in middle earth.

[@Power_Prawnstar]

Adar is a made up character, shouldnt even exist, so yeah, the whole show isn't lore and doesn't belong in the Tolkien world, glad you like it though, you do you.

[@chickenperson-ir3bn]

I think its interesting and worthwhile: in a way, I see the orcs' more not-wholly-black depiction as a sort of exploration of Tolkien's own doubts and uncertainties surrounding a naturally evil race, and how that fits into the world he created. In the same line of reasoning, I actually quite liked Galadriel and Adar's controversial scene in S1 where he argued they are, after all, children of Iluvatar too, just so my stance is clear. As for it being a family and not just a who knows what, I think that there isn't neccesarily a conflict here either, and I think depicting some other form of family arrangement would be a lot more problematic from a trying to make it fit with the lore view. Ultimately, I dont think the orc family will meet a happy fate and I think the show will play this up for drama sake. Only out I can think of is perhaps a defection during The War of the Last Alliance (owing to the Tolkien quote that all living races came to the battle, and fought on every side, except for the Elves) but I dont know if they'd be willing to or even able to play that card

[@timothyhoff97]

I think one of the most common misreadings of Tolkien is that he is interested in black and white good and evil. Anything we can see to complicate that (mid)reading is a welcome addition in my view. If anything, seeing a devoted orc family makes what we know about their more total corruption later even more tragic. Side note: I don’t know that “loving” would even be the right word here - does an orc father “love” his child or just want his child to succeed and carry on some lineage?

[@timharrison1158]

I think devotion to family would be as alien to orcs as kindness or love. Certainly the orcs by this stage were already totally corrupt. I remember reading somewhere in Tolkien's writings about orc breeding pits. They were not like in the movie. It would be a terrible thing to be a female orc, and orc children would be brought up in cruelty.

[@timothyhoff97]

@@timharrison1158 i mean "devotion" as in motivated to pursue some particular outcome. As the video points out, lines of succession were a thing in orc communities, so presumably an orc would be interested in his particular lineage retaining power within the clan. i don't mean "devotion" in the way that we might more typically use it as a synonym for caring. as such, he makes sure his offspring have enough food, are protected, etc. Certainly not in a "loving" way, but in a way that makes it clear that orcs have particular motivations for the things they do. edit: also the breeding pits were a movie creation as noted in the video as well. but yes, it was likely a horrible experience to be an orc, especially an orc woman or child.

[@timharrison1158]

@@timothyhoff97 Fair enough, for the devotion point, although from the little I saw in the clip, it seemed that there was some kind of emotional attachment which I think would be very unlikely. As far as breeding pits go, I'm sure they got the idea for the scene in the movie from the literature. Although there was no description, there was mention of breeding pits in one of the books. I always thought it was wrong, along with so many of the other deviations they made when making the movies. Never mind, the movies were exceptional. Just translations, not transliterations, of the books.

[@timothyhoff97]

@@timharrison1158 yeah the body language in the clip leans toward “loving.” I’m more talking abstractly about the idea of orc families. It does seem unlikely that love would enter into the equation, but like I said elsewhere, I don’t mind the suggestion that orcs might have priorities other than being cannon fodder for the big evil lords arda. I could imagine an orc that loves (in the traditional sense) his child but also has no problem committing absolute evil for fun on the side haha. If you can pull a source for the breeding pits, let me know! I could have sworn that was a movie invention. I think there is general discussion of breeding orcs, but the idea of orcs being born of the slime and mud is unique to the movies as far as I know. But like I said, I’d like to be reminded if I’m wrong! Agreed on the adaptations being “translations.” The originals will always exist. If other artists want to use that world as a jumping off point, it doesn’t stop me from loving the original text.

[@valentinkambushev4968]

@@timothyhoff97 There are black and white elements in Tolkien's works, but they are reserved for men, elves, and dwarves, not orcs. Orcs are naturally evil because of their creation. They are Morgorh's greatest sin, vile, cruel, and malicious. There is no room for depicting them as anything but monsters.

[@david.miskick]

Thank you and my compliments, how good of a voice actor you are. :)

[@Crossil]

There is nothing to argue against in your take. Point for point, I agree on all accounts. A total misalignment of intentions and mediums through which to fulfill those intents, the Orcs are not the peoples to use for them. The point on the Haradrim being a good choice is absolutely correct, with how well received the Numenoreans were by the peoples of Middle-Earth and Harad originally (let's not talk about that little misunderstanding with the Dunlending ancestors, yeah?). It's unfortunate that I know full well from which socio-political perspective this scene arose from, which made Orcs their medium of choice even though it makes no canonical or literary sense to use them for it.

[@kelticowl9400]

Excellent video mate, I'm completely okay with the idea of Redeemable Orcs, but that feels much more like a 4th Age idea, after the destruction of the Ring where they would be free of Dark Lords

[@bridgeth6746]

i haven't watched episode 5 yet, but so far the only "sympathetic" thread for orcs comes from Adar, who would of course side with them. the orc that didnt wamt yo go to war doesn't mean they hate murder or vile actions, it simply means they are tired of being slaughtered in battle. i think we are meant to pity them for their origins, and that's about it.

[@StevenClendenning]

I think it works for the time period, they're free and under Adar who's pretty much a tortured elf. They don't necessarily represent every orc tribe of that time either. I think it will have the impact on the show of not how it explores orcs, but just how powerful and evilly corrupting sauron becomes.

[@aidan-h3p]

I don't know that much about the lore, but I would love to see the king of the Haradrim gifted one of the 9 rings of men to unite the tribes of Harad and free his people from Numenorian oppression, only to descend into insanity with visions of evil he attributed to Numenor and finally become a ringwraith, ruling beside the black lords he swore to destroy. Sauron bartering freedom from evil he caused for the obeisance of a nation and the soul of their greatest hero is an epic tragedy in the making and I am here for it.

[@ptpnugent]

I think the intention in TROP is probably to put Sauron on a plain of his own, so that even others viewed as evil are still his victims, so he's worse than anything else in Middle Earth. In terms of orcs being inherently bad: I don't think caricatural pure evil really makes sense since they orcs clearly function (somewhat) as a society, even without a dark lord. That means organisation, cooperation, and education to a certain degree, so a family unit isn't farfetched at all. They're warlike and cruel, sure, but so have men been, historically.

[@iseriver3982]

There's a single line in the two towers when merry and pippin are given orc medicine, and tolkein says that it showed that there was an unknown culture and wisdom in orc lore. Maybe I'm just over thinking it, but it always seemed to me that tolkein was showing that this evil race isn't all as bad as he made them out to be.

[@lusians3]

Tolkien didn't want Orcs to be monolithically evil. He wanted to add good orcs (ones free of Sauron & working against him) but he could not fit them into story.

[@patricklacey4946]

Agreed, I think this story/show gives them a chance to explore additional aspects outside of Sauron's control, which is pretty interesting.

[@rosyclown]

I remember that part in the movie. The hobbit was given a gross brown juice that must have tasted awful. But he wasn't poisoned by it.

[@nick3175]

You are missing the point completely. Culture and wisdom are not good or bad by definition. Cannibals also have culture. And obviously there is a lot of wisdom about Sauron in the orc lore. So Tolkien never tried to describe orcs as wise, good and highly cultural civilization. He just pointed orcs have own culture, different from the other races and their culture has a lot of wisdom about evil.

[@iseriver3982]

@@nick3175 you're arguing with shadows. Maybe stick to the red pilled content, requires you to think less there.

[@jacoborchard7295]

I think the character of Adar is important here. While in proximity to Adar they may be trying to emulate him and his love for his children the orcs. Once Sauron kills Adar it will be interesting to see how the orcs change.

[@muserluke]

Fully agree with this. This is probably the closest to a united orc community as we're ever going to see, all held together by a father figure. It would make sense for the concept of affection to stem from such a period in orc history

[@sarupadilla]

Nonsense.

[@elephantman2854]

​@@sarupadillay

[@nickynak3]

I think its interest to the story is in the development of Sauron's character and specifying what his desires are. Sauron (unlike Morgoth who pretty much just wanted destruction) wants control over all Middle Earth, and wants to use the Orcs as his means to that goal. There was a line in his conversation with Adar that highlighted this, where he as Halbrand said that Sauron was working with the elves of Eregion to make a weapon that would allow him to control the Orcs. Indeed, the existence of the One would allow Sauron to bring his armies under his sway, which we see when its destruction causes the Orcs to lose their will to fight. I like that this is presented as a threat to the way Adar wants the Orcs to live their lives, which is still evil and destructive but also free-willed. It allows us to have nuance in our baddies. We can sympathise with the Orcs' desire to be unsubjugated, while we despise them for their evil deeds.

[@johng92]

I’d imagine that Orc reproduction is more like a an animalistic brood, where few orc-men based on status and power are able to breed with a small harem or something and the offspring are often either eaten as fodder or are strong enough to survive and become warriors

[@Todyo1798]

Another comment points out that the Orcs follow "Adar", who has established himself as a father of all Orcs due to his being an original Orc- an Elf corrupted by Morgoth. If the Orcs apparently respect this dude based on the fact that they are his progeny then they must acknowledge some sort of famillial connection with their own off-spring, so an Orc dad acknowledging his Orc wife and child seems to follow the logic. I love Adar and the Orcs, they look awful compared to the movies but I like where they're going and I'm interested to see what's going to be explored with them before things fall back in with the lore.

[@zing_zippers]

I think it was a good way to show that the orcs are fighting for something, not just warring for the sake of it. I really didn't mind that scene at all as it didn't make me sympathetic toward the orcs. All it really did for me was give a Lil incite into Addar and his tactics. He might not have the mind-bending powers of a dark lord, but experience and knowledge are the ways he gains a following. All I was thinking was that quote you made from Tolkien about them not being irredeemable. He couldn't justify an entire race being evil, because in the end, it goes against the Christian morals he had woven into the world.

[@pastaking3639]

Man it so nice to hear a normal, not angry conversation about rings of power.

[@FrontLineMarine84]

I like your explanation and research into this. I’ve come to appreciate the rings of power more myself. It’s not the greatest but it’s better than many have made it to be.

[@cameronwhite4643]

I think personally its not about making them more sympathetic, the creators arent setting out to make us like the orcs they're trying to put across the differences in their beliefs that are going to take place, the orcs in ROP have been out of the shadow of a dark lord for a number of years and their priorities have changed in that time, eventually they're going to fall back into Sauron's comman and they'll go bsck to behaving in a manner we're more familiar with. The show isn't trying to set a precidence or go against existing beliefs, its trying to show how the orcs descend back into darkness, the more sympathetic mannerisms we're seeing will, if anything make their rapid descent all the more diabolical

[@cameronwhite4643]

Edit on this just that they have done this with a few characters already, biggest example being galadriel, people criticizing that this isn't the galadriel we know need to remember that this isn't the beautiful and serene queen of lothlorien, this is the war hardened commander of the Northern armies, as the show progresses the power of her ring will start to mold her into the galadriel we know

[@LizardMan8675309]

My only real problem with the orc family depiction is that they were shown as Family units. I totally accept that they could establish family units, but I don’t think in their current state shown they would.

[@isaacm2374]

But that's your opinion based on what you believe is plausible. Most people objecting are literally saying it's impossible and Tolkien wrote explicitly that this can't happen. Which isn't the case.

[@LizardMan8675309]

@@isaacm2374 totally agree, I personally feel like it’s incredibly unlikely given the nature of Orcs at the time, but certainly not impossible given tolkiens writing Also it was such a tiny scene that I missed it on first watch so I’m not sure why it’s getting blown out of proportion. The barrowwights are a much bigger deal IMO

[@darthbon1121]

Espero con ansias la versión en español, exelente video 👍

[@AaronArney]

I was thinking that they were perhaps showing that moment so that when Sauron ultimately dominates them that we'll see them start to become more blood-lust and less concerned about their own families, etc.

[@unijer]

I am very impressed with your knowledge, you are my go to for information, if you ever write a book I would definitely add it to my collection of Tolkiens work, you have done the deep dive thru the works that i am unable to do

[@solarisdevorak]

My biggest takeaway from what you've said is, will be. I think showing a progression to this irredeemable evil is okay. Showing a handful of them as you know family units are those who do want to just live in peace at this period in time is okay. We know where they end up.

[@fandyllic1975]

I have no problem with brief portrayals of orc families… I don’t understand why it’s such a big deal, unless you have a headcanon against it. I also think it would be a mistake to give it further focus. I really think it is shown to generate sympathy for Adar and really isn’t about orcs. The show runners are very invested in trying to make fans root for Adar or at least want him around, since he is their creation. One of the general problems is that many fans have an incomplete picture of the lore and react strongly to things they don’t like regardless of whether it is in keeping with the lore. This is why you see many viewers ignore some of the worst lore violations while getting all hot over stuff they just don’t like.

[@albion4044]

Other then a vague resemblance to the world created by the author this show has nothing to do with Tolkien or Middle Earth. Tolkien's Galadriel, Gil-galad, Elrond, Elendil and their ilk were characters you found yourself becoming invested in. Their stories were compelling and you wanted them to prevail against darkness. I can't think of a single character in Rings of Power that elicits that response from me or actually any interest at all.

[@Ms.Murchison]

The "loving family" aspect is definitely a stretch and one I'm not in love with, but I think making the orcs more complex than simply evil killing machines makes the story that much more interesting, at least to me.

[@Mahershalahazbaz]

Well done as usual Matt 👍🏾

[@dougmphilly]

I am so glad you did this. I have supported RoP that there are deeper cuts that casual viewers and influencers like to ignore. The harfeet are just killing me. And I love your idea about the evolution of numenor from liberators to tyrants before ar pharaon.

[@iivin4233]

I think all different ways Tolkien tried to imagine orcs shows that this question of orc nature is not easy to answer. He's essentially struggling with the problem of evil + the question of nature vs. nurture at the same time : two of the hardest condrums humans have ever considered. I do think it was genius of him to respond to questions as if he had observed the history of Middle Earth and was just trying, like his readers, to explain what he observed.

[@tooslick5198]

It seems to me that the writers didn't even try to imitate Tolkien, that they just wanted to write their own fantasy story's using The Lord of the Rings as a hook to make people notice.

[@sarupadilla]

Exactly. This show reads like fanfiction that someone who just skimmed through a few LOTR wiki pages wrote after taking notes on a few names and events.

[@roro-mm7cc]

@@sarupadillaI like the show

[@TavaraTheLaughingLion]

Hm... why exactly? The depiction of Sauron (and his non-stop, unending gaslighting) certainly doesn't indicate. Other races such as dwarves, men, even numenors, pretty much fall in line with everything Tolkien's created thus far. Coupled with the fact Tolkien left A LOT of things open for interpretation, what are the exact points within the show u think makes it more of a fanfiction?

[@piggerGg]

Let’s be honest, you’re a super nice dude that makes great content and isn’t going to call this out for what everyone knows it is.

[@ctbeard08]

and what is it exactly?

[@becklyn3]

There never can be a villain who is truley evil.....the writers of this show just cant handle it they must interject a gray area of their own making.

[@JordanVanBuskirk-x3j]

Adding in the Gimli impression at 4:20 was a stroke of pure LOTR fandom genius and I almost spit out my drink from laughing 🤣🤣 Thanks for another great video, Matt! I was really interested in this topic after watching episode 3, and I very much appreciate the mindful and well-researched content. Totally agree that the Haradrim and Easterlings would be great as sympathetic villains, especially (as you mentioned) given the moving moment that Sam has in the book while looking at the dead Haradrim soldier.

[@theoldar]

It's just like Star Wars showing Sand People in a positive light. It's a function of our times.

[@JrrrNikolaus]

I don't think the Orc family has shown them as sympathetic. It explains their motivation to be free of Sauron and make their own homeland. The Orc raising a child Orc as his heir would make sense to be protective in such a brutal setting, otherwise no Orcs would survive childhood. Sauron reenslaving the Orcs under his will will happen very fast.

[@marvelightv]

God man, the point you brought up with the Haradrim being a way better way to do the sympathetic villain story just further illustrates how incompetent the writers are as soon as you said that I was like damn that’s genius. They should’ve just hired you instead. This has been the most expensive waste of money I have ever seen.

[@muserluke]

I don't think there's anything negative about the portrayal of a nuclear orc family. While it's probably a bit of a stretch to evoke the idea of a nuclear family, I don't think it's out of the realms of possibility for orcs to love (on some level) members of their own kind and their offspring. Adar holds affection for his "children", again, on some level. What's important to keep in mind is this scene was only a few seconds long. It's not as though massive amounts of mileage or energy were put into this perspective scenery - it's simply a blunt, on the nose way of implicating the 'yes, orcs have babies and therefore affection' idea onto the viewer. And that's okay. To nuance this idea further and offer analysis into domestic dynamics would take more mileage and energy which, as Nerd says, isn't really worth it. Orc nuclear family is fine for some mindscape expansion, as long as you're open to getting the gist/the show itself.

[@sickcallranger2590]

It’s just extremely silly for the setting, which imo doesn’t require any more “nuance” than it already has. We’re living in a time where moral relativism is supreme, but it’s OK for a fantasy world to have beings that, though not completely, are for the most part born of evil, for evil purposes. Adding this “nuance” only makes Tolkien’s world that much poorer of it, by, as is the trend of the decade, turning everyone and everything into the same bland goop because we can’t dare say anything has inherent qualities like good or bad. But this is a fantasy setting. It doesn’t have to, and does not, reflect ‘the world we live in today.’ Let fantasy be fantasy. Leave the relativism for polisci class.

[@davidsalts]

The fundamental misunderstanding that makes me not even bother to criticize Rings of Power's portrayal of orcs, elves and dwarves, or any other thing, is that they demystify the entire universe. Tolkien's universe is fundamentally magical. Elves and dwarves are of course magical, but also nature, geography, everything is sung into existence by the Valar. Remember, in Tolkien's universe this is not just mythology that some people believe in, but the way things actually are. And there are living beings that you can talk to who can attest to that. Gandalf the Gray died in the battle against Baolrogern, but was sent back as Gandalf the White, etc. This is not a situational drama, or a power struggle over who will inherit the farm. I used to work in the kindergarten, and once there was a boy who said "Let's play sharks", and a girl who said "I want to play house". The compromise they reached was that they played shark house. It's just like "house" except everyone has to say "blob blob" and make hand motions like they're swimming. This is just like "Rongs of Power". You take a working fantasy world, turn all the magical beings into nuclear families and run situational drama across the board. Everyone has the same conflicts, joys and dialogues, but with different makeup. It's just boring. So… do I have an opinion on “orc families”? No, I'm not interested, and I can't wait for the series to crash. The sooner I can go back to enjoying "TOLKIE'S" universe. For now it's just a source of irritation, like someone who keeps my favorite bench in the park busy even though they could be sitting anywhere, or someone who is too loud on the phone on the bus, but not so loud that I need to say something. I don't react to dark-skinned dwarves or elves, or dwarven women without beards. All this completely unproblematic. But one thing that shines through is that neither the writers nor the actors like Tolkien, and then the question becomes why. The show is obviously not aimed at Tolkien fans, or nerds in general. So who have they really thought of to look at the misery. Those who are meant to identify with the characters are not people who normally like fantasy. It doesn't make sense.

[@melissac3984]

The way I see this going in rings of power is that right now we have some less extreme orcs that are free of a master but still mostly evil. Once Sauron takes back full control of the orcs all that free will will be wiped out. One theme that keeps on reoccurring is the power over flesh so at some point sauron is going to take full control.

[@nick3175]

Or maybe Sauron and Galadriel will fall in love and have children. As obviously according to the show orcs elect their leaders and can kill Sauron, which natural form is black comedy goo, so the showrunners derailed completely off the lore created by Tolkien. I really doubt the scriptwriters ever read anything written by Tolkien. They watched the Jackson's movies obviously, but that is all. As the entire plot is trying to create very stupid twists and to answer questions, that are already answered. We know how Sauron came to power, and he never been killed by orcs, as that is simply impossible. Gandalf never had amnesia. Orcs never been good and loving. Harfoots were smaller in stature and had a browner complexion, they were not black, multiracial, or white. The show completely missing the point elves, humans, hobbits, dwarfs, orcs and etc. are different races. That is why there are not black elves or Asian elves, because that will be like white black, or black Chinese - simply stupid. And we see in the show only orcs as different race, for some reason there are not black orcs, white orcs and Asian orcs. So they are trying to humanize orcs, but turned all other races into humans de facto, except the orcs. So obviously and proven by their own actions, the showrunners are racists. And etc. There are so many inconsistencies, specially with the timeline. The show is a bad parody of Tolkien's work, and very expensive parody.

[@rookcapcoldblood2618]

I'll argue that Adar loves his Orcs and the Orcs love Adar. In such a dynamic, I think it makes Sauron even more evil due to the fact that he will stamp this sort of thing out. The Orcs are happy under Adar, and Sauron will take that away.

[@rogerp.4375]

I think that with the budget they were given, it's insulting to the fan base that they didn't consult modern historians of Tolkien lore, or listen to them if they did.

[@romejoey]

I quite like this depiction of orcs. In the narrative, recognizing that her enemies are also sentient beings with names and souls rather than cannon fodder is a step on Galadriel’s moral journey, and what I assume will be Sauron’s subjugation of the orcs will emphasize his cruelty. For worldbuilding, I appreciate any effort to show that all the various peoples have some form of functional culture and society, which actually makes them more of a threat than roaming packs of animals. I don’t think the depiction of the family went overboard in showing excessive care or affection.

[@121tut]

if it is written by J. R. R. or compiled by his son, then it is so, and cannot be disputed.

[@charlesnunya2347]

I don't mind adding the family element to them. I have done the same thing as a DM for my DnD group and when they did it in the show it made me smile. It doesn't change who you are rooting for but it does add a little depth

[@PiscatorLager]

In his later life Tolkien regretted the way he had designed orcs, especially how they are basically shown as an irredeemably evil sub-human race. Making him both the creator of (the 20th century interpretation of) orcs and their first civil rights advocate.

[@Guasa123]

Thank you I was getting sick of people complaining about something of which they have no knowledge

[@marjoe32]

People call this a "loving family" is silly, looking for a reason to say the writers are bad. Nothing is truly evil , you can root against without Hating them. They want you to look at that hate in your heart and be troubled by it. Like Adar showed Galadriel in season 1

[@mrfish89]

This is fairly nonsensical. Read it out loud and see if it makes sense to you

[@haha__hihi]

Yes ofc, nothing is truly evil. Hitler loved animals for instance. Does that mean that I can't hate Hitler or nazi ideology ? Ofc not... And if almighty Eru Iluvatar can forgive and redeem Satan himself, that does not mean mere mortals have the same capacity. This moral ambiguity thing which relativizes good and evil is wrong. We can have nuance without trying to equalize all positions by lazy cowardly sentiments like "all sides bad", "victors write the history", etc. pretending there is not an objective truth and everything is just a matter of the subjective opinion

[@RexKochanski]

@@haha__hihi Illuvatar may be willing to forgive Morgoth, but Morgoth refuses to be redeemed.

[@ulixes1000]

Very good video, well researched and informative

[@meining-mech4378]

I agree about seeing story arcs for the Haradrim or the Easterlings, but more so the Haradrim. Enjoyed the video!

[@TheGregFactor]

I think these writers going out of their way to try and humanize nearly irredeemable monsters is extremely odd, unproductive, uninteresting and unnecessary. Just, why? It feel like an ulterior motive more than actual story telling or world building.

[@ethans9379]

I feel like it was odd and uninteresting that Tolkien initially made them irredeemable monsters

[@DeiFicFoolery]

The orc in question with his family never wanted to go to war that doesn’t mean it doesn’t wanna do bad stuff like stealing and killing innocent people so it all checks out there’s no issue

[@DeathMessenger1988]

​@@ethans9379 The guy was literally making a story from scratch, and spent the rest of his life building and elaborating further upon it. Compare that to a bunch of modern would-be writers who think they're going to write "the story Tolkien could never tell" out of some pretentious sense of moral, ideological & political self-righteousness and superiority. How that any better than the likes of Hitler and Stalin, who created whole cults of personality hell-bent on rewriting history, burning books, preaching anti-intellectualism to serve an agenda? Or Sauron himself? I admit that the insider look into Sauron and the Orcs' situations and mindset is an interesting thought experiment, but ultimately fruitless in regards to the canonical lore from books and movies. Sauron is ultimately the bad guy BECAUSE he's so obsessed with order and control, no matter how much he justifies himself; Nerd of the Rings and other youtubers have done entire videos on how Sauron's mentality and worldview are essentially those of a narcissist constantly judging the world and everyone around him by his own lenses. And no matter how tragic the Orcs are, they're still invariably bloodthirsty and cruel towards all living things. Which, again, could be applied to the real-life tyrants and mentioned priorly; they weren't cartoon villains with no motivations (real or imagined) behind their actions, but it doesn't change what they were and did. I myself have a LOT to critique about the Valar and Eru, but I'm also not deluded or uppity enough to claim Morgoth and Sauron were "misunderstood victims" or whatever else Amazon seems to want to portray here.

[@ethans9379]

@@DeathMessenger1988 Morgoth and Sauron were definitely evil. The key part is that they were willingly evil. Orcs, as Tolkien presented them, are either innately evil or mindless, both of which present problems based on the amount of willpower they display in Lord of the Rings

[@DeathMessenger1988]

@@ethans9379 The Orcs are never portrayed as "mindless", but with their natural instincts geared TOWARDS being mindlessly evil. Think of Saruman talking to Lurtz in the first movie: Lurtz is basically an adult newborn, no idea what he is or what is going on, and Saruman basically tells him "You are a ruined form of life created for war... but one I have perfected", and Lurtz immediately goes into warrior mode. Willpower doesn't mean they are entirely "free". They definitely capable of free-will and independence, but are mentally and spiritually programmed to submit to the Dark Lord (whoever that may be, and it usually equals "da meanest, biggest 'n strongest" in their society). The Ents, when you think about it, are very much the same in some ways. Yvanna created them to basically counter Aule's Dwarves, meaning that while the Ents ARE individuals and capable of free-will, their general mindset is "Trees & Nature Good, Anything Else Bad or Irrelevant".