Paul Kingsnorth Destroys Christian Civilization with Words and Jesus

[@matthewsheek8306]

It’s 4 days from our national election. I have been inundated by a countless stream of politics and dire warnings about my fellow Americans. This podcast, though about Western collapse, is surprisingly calming. The world spins around me but my God is steadfast

[@chrisyoung2197]

Kingsnorth really put his finger on the push & pull of The Corner. Our heart tends to be with Kingsnorth, but our head tends to be with Holland/Peterson on Christian civilization. We all go back and forth because we are stuck in the inverted world

[@lauragiles5193]

I don't think that Holland aligns that will with Peterson.

[@lauragiles5193]

There are some places where they have actually criticized each other.

[@tgrogan6049]

Religion is the "science of contradictions" my friend.

[@elektrotehnik94]

​@@tgrogan6049Actually kinda true 🙏❤️

[@richardgarcia482]

Can’t believe you cut short of Kingsnorth critique of Peterson ,you have censored the Prophet by way of careful editing.

[@comeintotheforest]

You always hear a lot of people complaining about Christian civilization and Christendom. I walk around the streets of Stockholm and see the average person brutalized by the ravages of sin and death on the psyche. The body lives but the soul melts away. Even the stones here cry out to the godless existence this nation has suffered, with every new building being a faceless concrete box filled with empty longing and loneliness. At least in Christendom the average person knows his Creator. At least in Christendom the average person does not need to wonder about their sexual identity, whether this world is fundamentally good, whether there is any hope or good or love or care. Freedom in Christ never meant a libertarian free will to do whatever or believe whatever I want. It always meant being free from the bondage of sin. The law has always been there to protect against the ravages of sin, to point to God, and to remind us of our wickedness. Government and hierarchy will remain, always. It’s better that our prince is a Christian so at least he has a moral conviction. The same government Paul writes gains it’s authority from God (Romans 13) is the Roman empire which persecutes and crucified himself and his Savior. Though Paul writes in response “vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord. I will repay” Jesus says those who are persecuted and suffer are blessed. The complaints against Christendom spring from the modernist cries of Liberal rationalist anabaptists divorced from the history of the Body of Christ, and their sad influence ravages the innocent who lack a temporal shepherd. Shame on those who remove the fence from the lamb so that he can be free, only to invite the foxes and wolves.

[@tgrogan6049]

Doesn't it seem odd that Christians can't agree on anything. Where is the Holy Ghost?

[@comeintotheforest]

@@tgrogan6049 have you ever heard of people who all agree on everything? Or are Christians expected not to be human. Another stupid point.

[@tgrogan6049]

@@comeintotheforest Christians are supposed to have the indwelling of the all powerful all knowing Holy Ghost. See the difference? "one faith, one lord, one baptism" .....But which one?

[@tgrogan6049]

Ever walked around Gary Indiana? I guarantee all the folks there are professing Christians.

[@fegeleindux3471]

Western Christianity and it's crypto-manichean doctrines of predestination and guilt obsessed Augustinianism and the concept of original sin which is absent (in it's Western formulation) in the East is what I call a botched and deformed Christianity that was destined to die because it led (with notable exceptions) to nihilism, pharisaic performative piety and self-righteousness conceived as a personal crown to scorn others and in this configuration Christianity becomes a prison, you say that those rationalist methodist divorced from the body of Christ (the Church which itself can also become an idol and a self perpetuating end in itself) but which one ? The one headed by the Borgias during the Reformation ? It was inevitable and the problem was that the only source of Theology in the West was essentially Augustine because even Protestants were Augustinians and that was the case because the other Fathers and Authors together with their conceptualizations were not available because nobody in the Latin world spoke Greek for a long period of time, now we can access the writings of many original authors and we think that this was the case during the previous eras but it wasn't and so the West was left with the peripheral areas of Christiandom at least in the theological sense.

[@samuelewing8935]

Listening through Kingsnorth and then will circle back here. My instinct as someone who probably leans towards JBP but is moving towards Kingsnorth, is that this actually is a welcome corrective to the baptisizing of the Daily Wire.

[@elektrotehnik94]

I'd advise everyone to first listen to the Kingsnorth talk, and ONLY THEN watch this video. 👍🙃 Watching this video first, didn't provide sufficient context, it seems to me. 🤷❤️

[@Secretname951]

@@elektrotehnik94whoops

[@alisaruddell3484]

“Paul Kingsnorth channeling Ivan Illich” - that’s exactly what I thought too! And it’s why I resonated with him. So glad to hear you discussing this, Paul. Thank you.

[@michael2l]

1:03:13 really appreciated this observation. Our sinfulness is a misapprehension of what it is that we really want. And God primarily seems to be in the business of revealing ever deeper layers of what it is we truly desire.

[@WhiteStoneName]

Amen. White stone name desires.

[@fancyhitchpin8675]

Kingsnorth would do well to remember that Eden was a garden, not a wilderness, and the eschaton a city. The later I can not even imagine understanding until I get there.

[@lasetat]

He answers this point really well at the end of the talk in the original video.

[@lauragiles5193]

Eden is a walled garden to be precise (that is the actual meaning of the word paradise.) And within Revelations that garden is within in the city. Truly the merger of heaven ad earth that is spoken about so well by Pageau.

[@Philanthrophxyz]

If I remember correctly, in Zechariah God ultimately desires a city without walls, that His glory may surround it and fill it.

[@scythermantis]

The problem with the Ayaan Hirsi Alis and Jordan Petersons of the world, are that they have chiefly become MORE DEFINED by what they are AGAINST, than what they are FOR...

[@jonathonray6198]

I dont think that is the key issue the key issue is failing to appreciate irony and the middle way and being a product of their times. However they are taking people on a journey and they are sincere in a way the post-ironic cynical world can barely handle.

[@annawray2220]

I spent some time on Iona staying with the brothers and sisters at the Monastery a couple of months ago, what Paul speaks of so eloquently here is mainstream at the monastery. St Columba wouldn’t much cared for ARC 🤣

[@FaithEncouragedTV]

As you were taking off the sweater, I knew I was in the right spot. As usual, Paul, you give me words to talk about the shaking of the moment we are in!

[@faithfulandfoolish]

Great analysis. Gentle pushback: Your hangups around the extreme cost of the marble flooring in Orthodox churches (mentioned at least 3x in this vid) betrays either a bit of jealousy OR (I suspect) some deeper disconnect that has more to do with your Puritan/protestant/dutch roots rather than any actual disdain toward the long Christian tradition of making our temples/churches beautiful reflections of the heavenly Jerusalem. The Orthodox take this very soberly and seriously. It is an offering of and encouragement to the faithful to both create these beautiful places of worship and be there to pray and receive the Eucharist. Granted...we may be getting closer to a point when these holy spaces are destroyed again (war, unrest, natural phenomenon) and we all have to enter the catacombs again for a season...but those spaces were beautified too. Also, parish after parish have stories about how their "extravagant" spaces were funded or materials donated or discounted or whatever. These same ornate parishes often also have very generous and active laity involved in serving the poor of their communities...the tension/paradox is real, especially for us Americans, who often reflexively take on the posture of the disciples toward Mary and her pint of pure nard toward such "extravagance".

[@resilientrecoveryministries]

He's Dutch. We're cheap. My dad would pull over on the freeways because he saw a tin can worth 10 cents when returned at Meijers. Being cheap is the 6th point of Calvinism.

[@JohnnyMUTube]

I was there in at the Chino conference where we did the tour of St. Andrews. What PVK leaves out are the stories Fr. Trenham shared around the providence of materials and financing during and after construction. Fr. Trenham really got to PVK...which has something to do with the hangup

[@resilientrecoveryministries]

​@@JohnnyMUTubeWe Dutch do believe austerity is close to godliness.

[@tgrogan6049]

PVK make snide comments about other Christian groups. He will never say they are "false" or "heretical" that would lose him fans. Push PVK to defend the demon god of Calvinism.

[@elektrotehnik94]

Paul is "Living Stones". 🙃❤️ He cares much less about Marble stones. ^^

[@TheRationalCarpenter]

The eschaton is fun and all but the trauma is really fucking me up.

[@beecee9681]

Plain speak, something I can finally understand without having to look up what someone is saying.

[@andrewternet8370]

wtf is God doin up there

[@sunrhyze]

@@andrewternet8370 You've seen the painting - sitting on a cloud, giving us the finger...

[@KaiserChili]

The thing we’re wrestling with underneath this discussion about Christian civilization is meekness. What does it mean to be meek? What or to whom on earth should we submit to? (Submission is unavoidable) Where do we draw our line? Who bears the responsibility for a civilizations actions? Can there be such a thing as a meek (earthly) king? Can a just man or can a just culture impose their will on others?

[@DragonNo1]

Paul: beautiful video! Thank you! I couldn't help to conclude that "the meek shall inherit the earth" is more an epistemological characterization rather than a human segment of a social taxonomy. It's the rejection of (blind) certainty, and an invitation to "humility" when facing the complexity of reality, and at the point of making crucial decisions within the civilization in which we're immersed. Loved the "watch what can I do with your sinfulness... even something glorious..." as long as you have the good, the true and the beautiful in mind.

[@HaigAltunian]

"I've got 300 plus rough drafts of sermons online if you really care to know. No one in their right mind should care to know that much... perhaps... at least not all at once." I feel personally attacked.

[@Fool0f4Took]

It's refreshing to see a prophetic voice get some stage time. Reminds me of what Hauerwas has been saying for decades. If the church would be the church, and, in Kingsworth's terms, refrain from twisting its orders, we'd have a much less distorted view of societal health and the state of the world. As it is, we're living in that last scene from the Mission. Don Hontar: "We must work in the world; the world is thus." The Cardinal: "No, thus have we made the world. Thus have I made it."

[@grailcountry]

Rene Girard on how to resolve our crisis: Christians should start being Christian again.

[@comeintotheforest]

All I ever hear is “prophets” like kingsnorth and I think each and every one of them preaches the gospel of anabaptist retreatism birthed by the social contract and Liberal anthropology.

[@Fool0f4Took]

When someone cites Jesus's words as though they might have some constructive criticism for the status quo and your first instinct is to fit that effort into ism-shaped boxes that can be easily dismissed... well, if any response can certify something as prophetic, it's probably that.

[@grailcountry]

@@Fool0f4Took Amen!

[@ChadTheGirlDad]

Man I’m 8 minutes in and can already tell this is gonna be a “pvk hall of fame banger “

[@jacquedegatineau9037]

Now that you say it, it's be cool to have some kind of index for this channel. I've tried to go back and find something in particular a year later and it's mostly impossible.

[@PaulVanderKlay]

I hope at some point to figure out a way to have AI catalogue it all.

[@ZacParsonsProjects]

Only 6 minutes in but PVK just said “bullshit” like he meant it. Now he’s channeling JBP’s hand gestures. Buckling up…

[@ChadTheGirlDad]

@@jacquedegatineau9037 one thing someone, anyone can do is actually make the playlist, make it public. Make it crowd source shaped then share it with PVK and he make it publicly available.

[@bbainter7880]

​@@PaulVanderKlayPaul just ask the AI to catalogue "Paul Vandrrklay's hall of fame bangers" . I am sure it will be fine

[@anselman3156]

Jesus Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords, and it is a fact that kingdoms of this world have become kingdoms of our God and of his Christ. As the prophets foretold, kings and Queens became protectors and helpers of his people, the Church. Despite recurring sins on the part of individuals and groups, Christianity has improved social conditions, promoted humane living, and, more importantly, has succeeded in transforming millions of souls, bringing them into the exalted state of partaking of the divine nature, elevation to heaven to reign there with Christ over the whole universe. Christus Victor, indeed.

[@lolersauresrex8837]

Very poetically and astutely put!

[@scythermantis]

What a provincial, eurocentric, anti-democratic and essentialist perspective... Bet you're a big fan of Francisco Franco, huh? Just like Solzhenitsyn (many don't know this). Keep exposing yourselves!

[@anselman3156]

@@scythermantis I have simply stated the evidence of Scripture and history, and the experience of Christians.

[@williambranch4283]

@@anselman3156 We left the Old World behind, for reasons.

[@fancyhitchpin8675]

The Lord our God has sanctified many a prideful project of men, including the martyrdom of Christians in the defense of Rome or the "Church". No King but Christ.

[@TheDrb27]

45:20 I remember Peterson saying something like since Nietzsche we have been feeding off the dead body of Christianity.

[@brianshea4177]

Nietzsche also said that you can't have Christian ethics with belief.

[@TheDrb27]

@ this is the quote of his that has always hit me the hardest. Friedrich Nietzsche believed that there was only one true Christian, and that person died on the cross

[@brianshea4177]

@@TheDrb27 Do you remember where he said that?

[@TheDrb27]

@ I shall go back a bit, and tell you the authentic history of Christianity.-The very word “Christianity” is a misunderstanding-at bottom there was only one Christian, and he died on the cross. The “Gospels” died on the cross. What, from that moment onward, was called the “Gospels” was the very reverse of what he had lived: “bad tidings,” a Dysangelium. It is an error amounting to nonsensicality to see in “faith,” and particularly in faith in salvation through Christ, the distinguishing mark of the Christian: only the Christian way of life, the life lived by him who died on the cross, is Christian…..
- Nietzsche, Friedrich. 1895. The Antichrist. 39.

[@brianshea4177]

@@TheDrb27 Thank you.

[@D1804-h5c]

I am still waiting for someone to explain to me how does JBP can make five series on judeochristian values as the west foundations and not once did he talk about the return of Christ as king, savior and judge. He talked about the end of the world but never he envision a global future of Christ as king. I mean is christ return also just a metaphorical truth? A journey of western events? Another "eternal pattern" of human being? A one man show for the west or litteraly the end of suffering for humankind whatever their ethnicity, their color, their sex ???

[@WongTag]

“Global future”? You mean the second coming?

[@williambranch4283]

@@WongTag Jesus never left. Logos.

[@Theophan.pilgrim]

Because he breaks down before he can get there. As we all do but pretend to not

[@tgrogan6049]

Jesus thought the world would end in his own lifetime ditto Paul and other NT writers. It didn't happen get over it.

[@williambranch4283]

@tgrogan6049 The world ends every sundown.

[@WhiteStoneName]

36:37 here it is. “Jesus has been smuggling himself into other ideas… the way that Jesus colonizes other religions is super sneaky.” (cultures, etc.) “general revelation” (common grace, and all other divided man categories) Maybe Christ was there the whole time? He was.

[@grailcountry]

3:40 I've read Rod since his days as a National Review Columnist. His work is more than just culture war fodder. Or at least he doesn't grate on me the way pure culture war figures do.

[@WmLocke]

Paul Kingsnorth had a gloomy message when he was an environmentalist, and his tone hasn’t changed now that he’s a Christian. I think he has a sensibility similar to other British writers of quiet, introspective collapses, such as John Wyndham, J.G. Ballard, Brian Aldiss, and Gwyneth Jones. There’s no Hollywood-style conflict, just decline and a simple resolve to keep going. Hopefully, Kingsnorth’s recent conversion gives him a vision of escape from collapse and a final restoration of the world, a possibility that was probably not available to the other authors. Resolve and vision together.

[@kbeetles]

I think you misunderstand him. He functions like a thermometer - man does not just live in sin but he/she is now also mortally sick. All Ideologies are like fig-leaves and snake oils. And yet - there is Christ, still! And he has his eyes on the Lord.😊

[@JohnVander70]

You crystallize things so well Paul.

[@hillbillyhistorian1863]

As an anthropology student, I’ve had to do a lot of thinking about the relationship between Christianity and colonialism. Was it a cause? Was it a tool? What are the implications of either case? It’s good to see similar things being discussed here.

[@maggen_me7790]

Just finished the P.K video...now doing my best to extract some knowledge from this very enthusiastic lay out!

[@mills8102]

It was very interestingly synchronous. We actually just studied Habakkuk last week leading up to the Sunday sermon and then Kingsnorth drops this.

[@damiancayer2003]

Enjoyed your video. To me, your point about all the different voices on a venn diagram is good. I usually think of it more 3 dimensionally with Christ and a glowing center (or sphere) and everyone else talking about what they see from their angle. We need all the voices to help describe the infinite! Helps provide a more ‘well rounded’ view for us😉

[@grailcountry]

9:59 Yes, and the Russian tradition has the strongest examples of both. Christian Anarchism comes out of the Russian Orthodox world (though Tolstoy recognized that the Anabaptists in North America were already living this way) and the most Imperialist forms of Orthodoxy, like the current iteration of the Russian church which rubber stamps Russian Imperialism.

[@fegeleindux3471]

it was created by Peter the Great with his obsession about the Prussian model and since then it didn't even resemble the Eastern Roman or Byzantine Church and it's structures or the model of the Symphony (ideally let's say) where Church and State were both separate (independent Byzantine secular schools dedicated to the study of Philosophy and the Arts but with clerical cooperation) and united at the same time

[@grailcountry]

Outstanding opening: this really does open up all the most important conversations.

[@anniecrawford2500]

Agree - that frame is very helpful.

[@grailcountry]

@@anniecrawford2500 Hello Annie, should have you on Grail Country sometime. Reach out to [e-mail] and we can set something up.

[@grailcountry]

1:07:21 That's a very idiosyncratic reading of Revelation. No text in the Bible is more clear in it's condemnation of earthly power, the offering up of the glory of the nations only happens after the destruction of the Kings and Princes

[@tgrogan6049]

The Book of Revelation was written by an insane visionary.

[@bobtaylor170]

Revelation is The Word of God. You're a blasphemer.

[@tgrogan6049]

@@bobtaylor170 Yes I am!

[@mlts9984]

You mentioned Niebuhr’s “Christ and culture” once and I remembered picking it up at a second hand store. I read about half of it on the way to CT. It’s super useful in providing categories that defy the simple either/or’s. Kingnorth certainly falls within a particular tradition, and his message is an important corrective to certain excesses, but it has to exist within a plurality of other traditions. It’s the unspoken insistence on a monoculture that causes the biggest issues.

[@beecee9681]

Thank you. The monoculture, religion wise or politically concerns me.

[@iphang-ishordavid2954]

You made a nice summary of my thoughts. The "insistence of a monoculture". I did see that onesidedness in his lecture. Where he called the Christian in the forest away from the city the true Christians, but then I thought, how about the soilder, laying down his life for his family and his love ones against the march of evil? Is that somehow not Christian? And does christ reject that kind of man? Well in Scriptures, it doesn't say so. Jesus said to the Centurion in mattew, "I have not found so great faith". Jesus commended the soilder and never chastised him for being a soilder. That was a man of civilization in my view, and Jesus never chastised that man or told him to give up his post.

[@comeintotheforest]

I’ve read through the full thing, and I totally agree. I think the Anabaptist/retreatist perspective, whether coming from someone who calls themselves an anabaptist or calls themselves orthodox, is an important voice but it is not one that we should all aspire to. My heart aches when I see more and more people fall into it because it does not contain the fullness of life with christ for the average person.

[@jasons4139]

Kingsnorths vision of the garden of Eden has a Pythagorian bend to it and a CSNY Woodstock feel of trying to return to a garden that is gone instead of technology in service and protection of a new garden.

[@F--B]

A new garden... On earth? A garden of man?

[@jasons4139]

@ the hope of utopia

[@Greg-n]

A garden is technology; it is interfaced with and organised through the tekhnē of the gardener; it's not a collection of wild shrubs. Through Christ, Grace is what interfaces and organises the human organism, inclining it to its natural good and potential which -left to itself- is otherwise unattainable. Just like compressed carbon laying dormant in the ground; the potential to be cut and polished and held to the light requires an external agent.

[@jasons4139]

@ the Garden is both top down and bottom up. Kingsnorth is really leaning into the top down while rejecting the bottom up side is what I was trying to get at.

[@Greg-n]

@@jasons4139 Probably why he's not Catholic (yet)

[@nathanwoodsy]

I just hope no one gets upset.

[@WhiteStoneName]

This makes me so mad.

[@nathanwoodsy]

You can’t handle the truth, Thompson!

[@ChrisOgunlowo]

Very well-reviewed. It's a brilliant talk.

[@indi_prime]

The synthesis between Christ and civilization, in my view, is the hierarchy of love. God's love is infinite, thus can love everything equally, however we are finite. We can only love based on proximity, first we access love by loving God, then loving ourselves, then family, community, polity, humanity, all life, all creation and finally all destruction leaving only love remaining. The radical form of love is to love that which seeks to destroy what you love knowing that the love itself cannot be destroyed, however, people can not be expected to be radical, especially if they are not practiced in love and are not embedded in a hierarchy thereof. People, however, can be expected to love if they are provided with something to love that returns it back to them, something that will not continue unless it is loved, such that they can observe in it's absence it decays.

[@jacquedegatineau9037]

Kingsnorth is falling into the pattern of the aging environmentalist who loves a whiff of his own brew.

[@bionicmosquito2296]

PVK: “Watch Paul Kingsnorth’s lecture. It needs to be there; it needs to be part of the conversation.” I agree. Too many Christians like to ignore the Beatitudes (the ones in Matthew 5). PVK: “Paul, don’t hold back.” I agree. A voice to balance the civilizational (only) Christians - like Peterson, and now Dawkins! PVK: “This is where things get a little Marcian.” I thought the same thing, but in different words. Kingsnorth is reading only the red letters in the Bible. Yes, these are Jesus’s spoken words, but the entire Bible is God-breathed. The Bible speaks positively about the idea of inheritance. Are we to think of this only financially? What kind of world will we leave for our children? Are we not stewards? Of all of God’s creation, including His created order? Then there is this: 1 Timothy 5: 8 But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. Are we to think of this only financially? Even Kingsnorth struggled with the dilemma when your neighbor and your enemy are at odds - when he spoke about defending his children from attack as opposed to watching them get beaten (or some words to this effect). Jesus is both simple and complicated.

[@elizabethmorton4904]

I'm not your usual viewer, and I'm going to be posting lots of comments. Here's one @ 23:06 re Afghanistan: William Dalrymple points out that Afghanistan has been conquered many times - he says it all depends on how much you want to spend. The history of Britain, Russia and the USA in Afghanistan is very important to know if you're going to make any remarks about that country. Do you know about the CIA's backing of the mujahideen? Surely you know! Is it good enough to say "but we're all sinners"?

[@lynnlavoy6778]

Enjoyed this one. 💯. Thank you

[@Operatio]

1) When I hear Paul, I love calvinism. When I see the frozen chosen, not so much. 2) Kingsnorth is definitively anabaptist in his leanings. Excellent analysis. This whole discussion is basically magesterialism vs radical reform.

[@nbinghi]

Kingsnorth is Orthodox. Far from anabaptist.

[@WhiteStoneName]

PVK, this is an essential watch for this discussion. It’s on Alaskan Orthodox mission work and how “conversion” works as I see it. It’s not colonizing. It’s sharing with people what they already know. “Receive with meekness the Implanted Word, which is able to save your souls.” kzbin.info/www/bejne/np25hoNvf6eSeqssi=TiInpuA5q3liiPRZ

[@uilspieel99]

I am deeply skeptical of any overt endeavour to install christian civilisation. In my country we tried to have an overtly christian government, enforcing overtly christian laws, and it degraded into a horrific institution of oppression and hate, and we are still living in the wreckage of it. I don't think I am opposed to christian civilisation in general, but I suspect that much like a true church, it cannot be some human institution ruled over from above by men, but should rather emanate naturally from a community of believers, that is to say that the christianity of a christian civilisation should not be imposed by law and force, but naturally result from her people living out christian lives. Basically if I had to choose between a christian monarchy and a christian republic, I would rather have the res publica (or the res Christiana as it were).

[@jacquedegatineau9037]

I see the danger of "installing" a Christian civilization but some things must be imposed by force and it is not wrong or counter-productive to do so.

[@williambranch4283]

@@jacquedegatineau9037 Only if I am Pope ;-)

[@fancyhitchpin8675]

The State is the domain of the Lord of this World.

[@jacquedegatineau9037]

@@fancyhitchpin8675 Not a very biblical take.

[@williambranch4283]

@@jacquedegatineau9037 Is Jesus Son or God? Where does Satan fit in?

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

I recently got onto Rod’s substack and got most of his books.. I “like” him too. I can’t give too much time to him cos still very of this world… I want to work through his Dante book for sure…

[@7crabwalk11]

“It’s either a piece of cake or a slice of life,” wrote David Mamet. It’s either Saint Andrew Cross or the San Andreas Fault. Kingsnorth’s thesis brings to mind Tarkovsky’s magisterial portrayal of Rublev’s decision to continue painting Icons in spite of the desecration of Holy Mother Russia under the hooves of the Golden Horde or Durer’s portrayal of the medieval city as the fruit of St. Anthony of the Desert’s interaction with the text of the Gospel. McLuhan passed through this country.

[@notlimey]

the part that bothered me at the start of Kingsnorth's talk was stating that pagan Anglo-Saxons lost their world to the Normans - the Anglo-Saxons were Christian in 1066. They lost their culture yes, but not their religion.

[@ChrishBlake]

4:03 ok this was synchronous. Soon as you said this I heard the siren!

[@anselman3156]

54:51 I think you are wrong in saying that France has a state church. The anti-Catholic forces in successive French governments disestablished the church. The secularizing tendency they call laicisme or laicite..

[@freedomslunch]

54:51 Before Samuel there was Gideon's son Abimilech who killed all of Gideon's other sons sans one and was made King of Israel in Shechem.

[@antonioperez4091]

Then I fell at his feet and thought, Surely this is the hour of death, for the Lion (who is worthy of all honour) will know that I have served Tash all my days and not him. Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc of the world and live and not to have seen him. But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, Son, thou art welcome. But I said, Alas Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash. He answered, Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me. Then by reasons of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said, Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one? The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites, I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For I and he are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do a cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. Dost thou understand, Child? I said, Lord, though knowest how much I understand. But I said also (for the truth constrained me), Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days. Beloved, said the Glorious One, unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek. C.S. Lewis, The Last Battle (Chronicles of Narnia

[@bendahl8612]

The thing that will save (revive? recreate?) culture is not really metaphysics. People don't spend all their time thinking about reality as much as they spend their time getting on with running back to the grocery store because they ran out of milk. It's ultimately about being together in our villages and caring about people. If it takes thousands and thousands of hours of rediscovering a more complete metaphysics for the intellectual movers and shakers to start to behave that way, then I suppose this is just an era we painstakingly wait through while we get back to the basics of love your neighbor as yourself. We can make these things real much more immediately in our local worlds than these prolonged, fragmented debates will change the hearts and minds of leaders / 'elites'. Maybe I'm wrong though because someone like JBP has drug along with him millions and millions of people back to a way of Christian participation in society.

[@WhiteStoneName]

25:45 re: the blessings and evils of civilization “To be blessed is to be cursed as well.” - Clem snide Civilized man half of which is virtue, half of which is vice. - CS Lewis

[@bradlutjens5476]

I was thinking about this through the lens of Barfield / McGilchrist / Ken Wilber and having them dialog in Gemini AI. This is how Gemini summarized that convo... Barfield's idea of "original participation" (where humans felt deeply connected to nature) is similar to McGilchrist's "right brain" thinking (holistic, intuitive). As our "left brain" (analytical, logical) became dominant, we lost that connection. But Barfield's "final participation" suggests we can regain it by integrating both ways of thinking, like in Wilber's later stages of development where we become more holistic and interconnected. So I guess my point is, I kinda feel like Kingsnorth wants to go "back" to that pre-left brain pivot whereas what we need to be moving toward is a recovery of the right brain but now integrated with what we've gained via the left brain and putting left brain endeavors towards more right brain ends. (At the same time though... I also agree with Kingsnorth's general point and believe Jesus doesn't belong anywhere near top / down worldly "empire.")

[@WhiteStoneName]

1:02:30 Preston Sprinkle and some Christian non-violence (and I would say non-institutionalism, non-colonialism, “no one will need anyone to teach them…”, etc)

[@jeffsmollett5547]

I listened to Kingsnorth's talk in full. He was talking about the decay of western civilization. It was not just contrasting a life of faith to a life of the world. So VanderKlay seems to give short attention to that aspect of the talk. Justifying the growth of Christian Societies and civilization as having incorporated both faith and the world is not as relevant if that growth is going in reverse. Kingsnorth seemed to be saying that the only thing that we have when civilization is in decay is faith. He seems to accept its decay as both unavoidable and as just one more example of past examples of civilizations decaying. Implied is that new civilizations arise. So this is much more than just decline and revival perhaps from a renewal of Christian religious awareness. Which I guess is what most in this little corner have their hopes for. If what is developing is really as severe as the slow collapse of western civilization, then what will replace it could be something very different. Perhaps as different as the replacement of Roman civilization with Christian civilization. Obviously we don't know the future, but it might be that Kingsnorth's prophetic voice is a little more far reaching than VanderKlay seems to acknowledge.

[@hankkruse4660]

Paul, I agree right/left is poor framing. Simply, there is me who is always right and you...not so much😂

[@JustGeridan]

Would be really interested to hear you talk to Kruptos, since you mentioned Jaques Ellul

[@vaportrails7943]

So I posted a lengthy, in depth response to this video, and it was deleted, presumably by algorithm. I can see no reasonable explanation for why. This is not good.

[@sunrhyze]

15:00 so worked up he has to take off his jacket 😂

[@alohm]

1:46 In The Sign of Jonas, Merton describes his observations of young monks who, in their early years, seem restless and eager for answers, often physically leaning against walls for support, as if mirroring their search for external answers. In contrast, the older, more experienced monks sit upright and at ease, embodying a quiet stability. For them, the restless quest for answers has faded-they no longer seek externally, because they have moved beyond needing specific answers altogether. Their understanding has deepened through practice and presence rather than through intellectual certainty. “You do not need to know precisely what is happening, or exactly where it is all going. What you need is to recognize the possibilities and challenges offered by the present moment, and to embrace them with courage, faith, and hope.” 4:00 this is Nietzsche's transvalution of all. It should lead to reconstruction not deconstruction. Adam Grant's think again - re-evalaute what you do and what you believe to vet its benefit and gravitas.... 6:40 I heard the same rebuke of Jung or Karen Armstong? I liken it to the Carmelites - when presented with reforms they agreed with: they did not destroy all tier traditions, they reformed within. And arguably produced a wonderful tradition of silence, contemplation, and living and studying the Logos. 12:39 - That is why we need more disagreeable persons - those willing to upset simply to ask questions. Asking questions can only enrich our understanding. 34:00 Swammi VivekAnanda and YogiAnanda also loved the ministry of Jesus, the followers were found wanting even then. VivekAnanda said he was shocked by how little the North American knew of his own religion, let alone that of another. From his visit to Canada and USA for the world congress of religions.. 1893. 34:25 - the algo loves Gandhi comments but deletes them? Every day I learn how little I understand of the world about us. 45:00 Spengler’s claim of inevitable cultural decline presumes that individual transcendence can't offset or redefine the trajectory of an entire culture, but history and human experience suggest otherwise. Transcendent individuals have emerged in all eras, defying the prevailing currents of their time. Figures like Socrates, Buddha, Christ, and later mystics and thinkers have shifted entire paradigms precisely by embodying ideals that were seen as counter-cultural or transformative. This suggests that individual transcendence not only occurs but can create ripples that challenge even the most deterministic views of historical cycles. Spengler's vision may be right in recognizing a kind of general cultural entropy, but it overlooks the resilience and adaptability within human nature. People, and particularly those who reach profound spiritual or philosophical heights, do more than merely reflect their culture-they also stretch and reshape it. The idea that transcendence is possible in any age, regardless of historical circumstance, is what keeps cultures renewing themselves. Nietzsche himself held this hope: while cultures might decay, individuals could still achieve new forms of self-overcoming, breathing life back into the collective by redefining values and striving for depth amid superficiality. 50:0 this is where I point to the teaching of Jesus, Christ Conciousness, Kenosis and koinonia. The Ekklesia are the fellow seekers supporting each other, regardless of the denomination. We are all brothers in Christ, brothers in Krsna, Brothers in Bodhicitta/sattva 51:00 I think this 'Christian society is dead" is what Fritz spoke to when he said there was only one Christian and he died on a cross. The idea that we all fail at this template. I tried to explain this to the young lad reviewing the Peterson Academy. Purgatorio is Dante - the Purgatory of theology is not a place apart - it is metempsychosis - to be better than our previous self. I mean is we die in Gods grace but need to work on ourselves further - isn't that here and now. In Buddhism we have this same idea - the Asuras are great powerful beings that are deluded by their ego or their powers achieved. Not fully awakened beings, but deluded gods that we can use as warning and guide? So not dead per se, but not a living tangible force, but one can be made manifest in an instant - and instant of choice and compassion. Devotion and commitment are missing not an etho - the ethos remains we are found wanting of the necessary fortitude and strength to embody our faith and beliefs. 55:00 I argue that the state church of Canada and the USA was(is?) our acceptance of what and who we are. The Identity that is formed from being a complex. That is the beauty of the West that we allow you to believe in what you will if you remain part of the social contract. The French anthem in Canada speaks to being born under a beneficial sky - a place that accepts you for who you are, that understands that you may have another language and culture and even religion but we are all in this together - the wheel and woe shared, that is the ethos of our countries and that could be our shared religion? 1:02:00 I believe that Karen Armstorn ggot into the nature - that it is the beauty and horror both that produces the sense of awe and wonder in the world. Karen Armstrong captures this duality of nature well in Sacred Nature: Restoring Our Ancient Bond with the Natural World: "We need to realize that nature, like all of life, contains beauty and terror, creation and destruction, vitality and decline. It is our task to hold both in mind, to see nature as a mirror of our own struggles and aspirations. Only then can we approach it with the awe and reverence it deserves." 1:03:40 - that is the Shunyata of Sanskrit, the edge of a void of Jung.. The Gestalt of Nietzsche - when we create great things we attribute them to an external force. Rather than embracing our own divinity or the divine discernment that allows us to be greater than the sum of our parts. No creature will strive on in the face of utter destruction, and "to take arms against a sea of trouble. And by opposing, end them." 1:05:29 - The Vicissitudes of life meet the beatitudes? 1:09:23 - The British empire didn't just end slavery - it spend half its budget in fighting to end it... 1:11:25 - Sati is both a widow throwing herself on a funeral ire and To remember - part of a larger phrase that is foundational. Sati Sampajanna. This is mindfulness. This is to remember the truth of your tenets, and to carry that with you always. Sati could also have been invented by the British. There may have been almost none - as shown in the number of instances of Sati dropped to nearly nothing upon the British influence subsiding, also the majority of cases were int he previously British influenced areas of India. 1:18:33 Ich und Du. We are only us in congress with others. Individuation, actualization.. none can be done in isolation. But the noise we face is something none had to deal with? Or are we biased in this perception? Was life easier for a desert father or an Indian guru? 1:19:30 - transvaluation of all values is an ongoing action - Karma and cause and effect from before... 1:23:00 it is for this reason I argue that if Tantra was better understood it would have been seen as a solution to Nietzsche, an early struggle for this truth of religion with sufficiency. The idea is to embrace all as God given - this life and what we cannot see and know. To embrace this life without denial of the next, to look forward to a paradise without denial of this life... 1:26:30 - The experience of equanimity - Koinonia and kenosis? 1:28:00 they will engage when it serves... The Divine is beyond words yet they want a script to understand God and themselves? Theseus' Ship - we are constructing this while we are using it...

[@williambranch4283]

Too much ;-)

[@alohm]

@williambranch4283 not all of it lol. I write it as practice. A digital commonplace book? Not for an audience. Too much in current traffic is none... Also very timely as I was going to stop posting these yesterday, but this video was very rich... So I put them in one file. I will let myself out 🤣😆👍

[@jeffsmollett5547]

Do you bridge east and west in your personal spiritual awareness? Not exclusively a Christian? Just to let you know that I am not really a Christian and am out of place here. But for some reason I listen.

[@alohm]

@@jeffsmollett5547 Yes.

[@chrishoward8473]

The next time Saul sees Samuel it is in Endor. Also an occasion for bad news.

[@jeff_mossy]

6:33 fantastic, I laughed out loud man

[@estheroreilly3143]

Very different conversation, very different tribe, and yet I think the David Platt discourse might be interesting to intersect with this. Platt's brand was "radical Christianity," but a lot of young guys are now shooting it down in hindsight, and I think they make legitimate points. Perhaps worth digging into a bit. I'd be interested in PVK's commentary.

[@PaulVanderKlay]

I keep hearing this David Platt name around but I'm not familiar with the controversy.

[@estheroreilly3143]

@Phlebas9202 Right. I thought of Claiborne. However he like a lot of people in his tribe have just slid left.

[@elizabethraper3963]

I am challenged to give up calling and categorizing by Paul Kingsnorth who is trusting in Jesus alone, not in religion or Jordan Peterson types. This little corner needs to get real.

[@lkae4]

The strange will unite us. I'm down for it. 😎

[@hammertimenow]

Paul, you should bring Vishal Mangalwadi into this conversation. His is convinced that Christianity is very much the foundation of the West. His book ,The Book that Made Your World brings this thesis to the fore.

[@GrimGriz]

Kingsnorth is talking about Pre-Colonial American tribes and you bring up Ghandi - classic!

[@williambranch4283]

Brits hate Americans, we love them back ;-)

[@nathanwoodsy]

Haha

[@Pseudo_Boethius]

Indians are Indians after all....

[@EmilyTodicescu]

1:19:40 Was it this video? "The 3 Things Keeping You From the Heavenly City | Jonathan Pageau & Richard Rohlin".

[@Encyclicals]

At the end here, it just dawned on me that Paul Kingsnorth, whether wittingly or unwittingly (I'm going to guess wittingly, he's no fool...), has inserted himself with the Church Fathers. "Against Christian Civilizations" may as well be titled "Against Heresies".

[@WhiteStoneName]

1:20:18 “God becoming human, living a human life…” Liturgy of St John Chrysostom “Who WITHOUT CHANGE became Man and was glorified. Oh Christ our God, trampling down death by death!”

[@tgrogan6049]

Don't forget this series by the "Great Saint": Adversus Judaeos (Ancient Greek: Κατὰ Ἰουδαίων Kata Ioudaiōn, "against the Jews") are a series of fourth century homilies by Saint John Chrysostom. Another hate filled Christian preacher elevating "faith" above "reason".

[@dawnmuir5052]

Thanks for this commentary, Paul. I agree it was an excellent talk. A throwaway comment you made stuck with me: you said, When JP talks about Orthodoxy, you think "Yes!", but when you here some other people talk about it, you say, "No, thanks". You have been so close to JP's work (and others, too) who are proclaiming the (re-)enchantment of the earth, often from an Orthodox perspective (Kingsnorth, Shaw), it seems that like me, you have been Orthodox-adjacent for some time. You also mentioned once, enigmatically, that "who knows where I will land" after you retire as pastor. I'm very curious to know, then, what the "no, thanks" is all about. What are these deal breakers for Orthodoxy in your view?

[@PaulVanderKlay]

I already have a church and a community. I'm not attracted to iconography or that specific liturgy. Some aspects I find inspiring and significant but like Catholicism I also find a huge diverity of just about everything there. It is an impressive tradition in many ways but finally I attend a real local church and a real local community. Right now that is Living Stones in the CRC.

[@dawnmuir5052]

@PaulVanderKlay thank you! I very much appreciate your reply. I value your opinion, which always seems knowledgable and well-considered. I'm glad to see it appears to be a question of affinity rather than theology.

[@2stephenschwartz]

Paul taking the jacket off

[@comeintotheforest]

1:00:38 YES YES YES that’s ALL IT IS is rationalistic Liberal romanticism! This is more a reading of Rousseau than the Bible!!!!

[@juliacook668]

This isn't going to go the way you think!! (Star Wars)

[@carlotapuig]

It's not about left/right or liberal/conservative anymore. It's about either accepting the globo-homo authoritarian modern world or rejecting it in the most suitable way you find for yourself and your family.

[@anselman3156]

To understand pre-Vatican 2 Roman Catholicism, and the nature of the V2 modernist rejection of it, you should read the encyclicals of Pope St Pius X. As for the French separation of church and state, he has several on that issue. As for Christian civilisation, and the continual struggle of the church to resist and subdue the sinful tendencies of rulers and still part barbarous people, read his encyclical on St Anselm Communium Rerum.

[@ChadTheGirlDad]

3:35 so let’s be honest. This is probably more accurately ‘The Dreher Sphere’

[@grailcountry]

1:07:07 Sometimes it's complicated is just a dodge.

[@tgrogan6049]

Most of the time in this space.

[@paveli1181]

Ancient world had images and statues not because they were pagan, but because they were illiterate

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

Kingsnorth, Let it all fall…? I’m still voting…

[@Neal_Daedalus]

This is one of your best videos.

[@WhiteStoneName]

1:15:30 “Here is where I think we go wrong: In action, we always have to choose.” Timshel. He mayest. Things of which angels long to look. Parable of the Ten Martyrs Trolley Car Problems Job Who are you O Man?

[@lonnieschubert7078]

Ken Medema is an anointed prophet of God.

[@DanHowardMtl]

Upvote for "BS". :)

[@elizabethmorton4904]

Second comment: @ 1:07:26 re the heavenly city - yeah, but the point is that it is heavenly; it's not built by humans, on human terms. @ 1:09:11 re the East India Company - I highly recommend William Dalrymple's book on it, "The Anarchy." I'm afraid Holland whitewashes a lot of Western history.

[@dmi3kno]

If we were in 2024 BC, Paul Kingsnorth's talk would be written down and included in the canon as a minor prophet, right after Habbakuk.

[@Christus-totalis]

Is the war in Ukraine a east west church battle ?

[@Pseudo_Boethius]

Yes.

[@BrysonCole-rl2rj]

. . . now I need my warm Milo and gingernuts to recover . . .

[@kevinkredit5699]

Yeah! More Kingsnorth in TLC!

[@Theophan.pilgrim]

Paul. Your my crack pipe i just cant quit.

[@frmichael1013]

On experience, in every audio presentation First Things does, whether podcasts or KZbin videos, the volume is too low.

[@grailcountry]

38:12 Hey that's me! (just ask Jacob)

[@vangoghsear8657]

I think what would make Peterson finally convert is a plunge in status.

[@briteboy79]

This was an incredible talk.

[@scythermantis]

It's a bit naive to say "Civilization is what people are ALWAYS doing" and THEN basically write off the vast majority of the world (in the "Global South") as "uncivilized" and needing us to "civilize them..."

[@indi_prime]

If I was to provide a defininition for civilization it would be "resolving disputes with the use of dialogue, repentance and atonement", which people have indeed been doing since dawn of intra and intergroup interactions, devolving into violence when civilization decays into barbarism - and by that definition, I would consider the modern world uncivilized, only kept in check by bread and games, rather than reason and empathy.

[@BazedPhilosophy]

Kingsnorth isn’t against Christian civilization. It’s clickbait. He clarifies that he’s against the power structures that forms Babel.

[@orthodoxboomergrandma3561]

I liked his talk there…

[@anselman3156]

On comments disappearing, what would be the reason for comments being hidden and having to be accessed by Sort by and Newest first?. This happens frequently to me, as in a comment thread on yesterday's video. Is there a bias against certain commenters, or against the views they express? In my case, it was a substantial comment on the theological questions of nature and grace. No trigger words or political names etc in there. Does YT gaslight us?

[@williambranch4283]

MI6 has both of us on their enemies list ;-((

[@anselman3156]

@@williambranch4283 If the world hate you.....

[@anselman3156]

@@EmJay2022 Thanks. Yes, it is vexing when you put some thought into contributing to the ongoing conversation. When they are hidden from the thread, it can seem that some point has not been answered.

[@anselman3156]

@@EmJay2022 Thanks

[@elektrotehnik94]

I'd advise everyone to first listen to the Kingsnorth talk, and ONLY THEN watch this video. 👍🙃 Watching this video first, didn't provide sufficient context; it seems to me. 🤷❤️

[@scythermantis]

Maybe we ought to consider WHERE the very idea of (Western) "Civilization" CAME from... a genealogy of definitions... (Christianity is an Eastern Religion btw) I think the very term Civilization deserves to be criticized and deconstructed at is it is now clearly a vessel for the naked power ambitions of Colonialist and Capitalist Exploitation... "Our Elites our now concerned with a culture of inversion..." That's just WRONG LOL Elon Musk is the wealthiest, most powerful man in the world, and he is firmly aligned with Trump and his Christian Nationalist supporters.

[@indi_prime]

Christ was born and died at the nexus point between 3 continents and spread in every direction. "Western Civilization" maps roughly onto the influence of the Western Roman Empire and the subsequent states which derived their structure from the Roman Catholic Church. Colonialism and capitalism are terms that describe phenomena that predate Christ, Marx defined capitalism as a stage of societal development and was wrong in that analysis and colonialism is used exclusively in academia to describe European settlements outside of Europe, broadened now even to every European, even those native to their own homes - including the children (but not non-European colonies currently growing inside of Europe, which exclude Europeans). I suggest YOU deconstruct the terms you use, rather than using them as blunt tools to condemn societies you don't care to understand, rather using linguistic cliches to veil your hatred in academia laundered jargon. "Colonialism" and "capitalism" - expansion and ownership can be observed in non-human species of animal, they are aspects of what it means to be alive, just as communion and community are also aspects. Finally, Elon Musk is an individual who engages in politics as an individual, rather than hidden subversive elites who seek the endless deconstruction of things built and maintained by others, twisted into the opposite of their purpose, "social justice" replacing justice, or "equality under God" becoming "equity" making men into ants, or a corporation which functions like a psychopath with no mission beyond consuming and growing, adopting any rhetoric which arises to critique it, thereby folding those who use said words to its own cause.

[@williambranch4283]

@@indi_prime We will all be made equal in death. Happy yet?

[@indi_prime]

@williambranch4283 while we're here we ought embrace our differences, I think, and know the proper place for them, the place to learn, the place to dance, the place to eat etc

[@williambranch4283]

@@indi_prime Overlaps can be worked. Opposition cannot.

[@indi_prime]

@williambranch4283 I think that both overlaps and oppositions have their place, without no up there is no down nor middle