Piccolo Vs Supreme Kai: Who Would Have Won?

What if Piccolo vs Supreme Kai really happened in the Buu Saga of Dragon Ball Z? Was Supreme Kai stronger than Piccolo? ‪@LSMMIKE‬ discusses that in this in-depth video featuring the Dragon Ball anime and manga.
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[@nazimuddin5122]

Piccolo. Shin underestimated the strength of the mortals. Piccolo chose to not fight him out of respect of Shins status.

[@ungenbunyon5548]

Was heading into the comments to share the same view =]

[@nazimuddin5122]

@@reptilian_geneticist I agree shin has more durability but that doesn't make him stronger than Piccolo. Shins durability is due to being a Kai.

[@nazimuddin5122]

@@reptilian_geneticist what feats? I don't consider getting trampled by Buu as a feat. Him being a supreme kai is the reason why he's durable. He's a God. He's able to take more damage than a mortal. Vegeta lasted longer with kid buu because he was dead. But as soon as he was wished back his body wasn't as durable anymore. Goku stated this as well. Mortals have less durability compared to being dead and a God. Shin was the weakest of the Kai. Old kai called him a shoe shiner. In other words, a disappointment.

[@silversoulken]

@@nazimuddin5122 You spittin

[@gokulrenjith2738]

Shin underestimated the saiyans, not piccolo. Shin was stronger than piccolo.

[@cosmosofinfinity]

The fact that not even King Kai had ever seen Supreme Kai is pretty insane

[@adolfodef]

King Kai is just a (very long living) mortal born in a planet of the "other world". While technically speaking he belongs to the same "species" than Kibito or Shin, the latter is of a subrace that is "blessed" with ultra_extra_long lifespan & natural cosmic powers [in a similar way Freeza & his family are "mutants" compared the typical "cold demon"]. -> The previous "kai the North Galaxy" may had met Shin ( Supreme KaiO of Universe 7 )... or not. Shin has had that position "by default" (only survivor qualified to fit) for dozens of millons of years [many "generations" lived before King Kai was "born"]. The same thing probably happens with many other "High Celestial Bureocrarts" (who can only get some info "above their paygrade" before their "relatively short lives" makes it irrelevant). Imagine teaching a fly (living about 3 days) about The Pope (or the Pharaohs of Ancient Egypt), when its task is to oversee the development of a bacterial colony [in case a fungi spreads over its designated territory, killing it with penycilin]. -> The god_fly of the bottom cavern may be curious about the ruler of humans... but it is unlikely it will ever met him.

[@ssppeeaarr]

about as insane dbs injecting angels n G.O.D.'s into the lore and zeno as well. lol. upto that point shin was the top dog. poor shin he was hype went away fast af...and remains this way to this day. smh. still aint a worthy kai who cant measure upto raw saiyan power. nope zamasu cheated too n was ss2 level also before stealing goku body.

[@ssppeeaarr]

well that fat grand kai is worthy tho. since he put a good fight with majin boo and also moro. probably could have beat boo if he didnt use up so much of his power on moro too......

[@AndrewAce.]

​@@ssppeeaarr Ya, Toriyama keeps changing the paradigm. Even the gods can't keep up...

[@jamesgray5900]

@cosmosofinfinity What has Supreme kai been doing for billions of years? He saw the other Kais die and he couldn't just train? As far as I am aware supreme Kai base if superior to Frieza so if he trained for like a week he could of blinked buu away

[@redjirachi1]

Shin: Is an inept god because all his coworkers died Fandom: Lol such a weakling Beerus: Is an inept god because he's lazy Fandom: Wow such a badass!

[@dmr14wizkid14]

Well technically shin is actually the Weakest of the 4 supreme kai's, and he never asked to be the one in charge. He was just given the role last minute when majin buu attacked, and Shin was the youngest Supreme Kai and weakest. Shin was also still in training.

[@DO9000J]

Beerus makes planets go boom with one finger tap. Shin doesn't.

[@redjirachi1]

@@DO9000J I mean Shin is a god of creation. Doing that would go against his job description

[@DO9000J]

@redjirachi1 I know but that's why fans like Beerus over Shin. We love whoever can make the biggest boom.

[@ThatGuy-a48]

​@@DO9000Jshin can probably do that too tbh Frieza destroyed a planet with a finger

[@andrewgarfield9898]

This was the moment where Toryiyama really dropped the ball for Piccolo. This was his one time to shine. Maybe he didn’t need to necessary defeat Supreme Kai but he couldve atleast put up a decent fight. And what’s even worse is that they did this to make Supreme Kai look powerful only to also make him a joke within just a few episodes. The writing in the Buu arc was just bad

[@MicahBuzanANIMATION]

Piccolo was done dirty in the Buu saga for sure. I get that narratively he was meant to be more of a mentor to the kids than a fighter. At least he was the one to destroy Babidi.

[@brianli6562]

@@MicahBuzanANIMATION wasn't it Buu that killed babidi?

[@nazimuddin5122]

@@MicahBuzanANIMATION no he didn't. That was Buu who killed Babidi. Piccolo cut him in half. But he survived.

[@DSan-kl2yc]

Isn't it smart. Toriyama got you to doubt the threat of Buu, only to them have Buu seriously be a threat and Kaioshin being right about it. Kinda playing with the audience by lulling them into a false sense of strength

[@nazimuddin5122]

@@brianli6562 yes it was. Piccolo cut him in half but he survived that. Buu killed him.

[@grammysworld5449]

I love that tournament announcer guy.. He's seen so much and was chill during the buu saga

[@shiningarmour6805]

The ONLY scale I can think of, is actually Babidi himself. Shin is ready to fight Babidi, almost like an equal, when he sends Gohan to fight Dabura ... Meanwhile Piccolo pretty much STOMPED Babidi despite his tricks

[@PlagueOfGripes]

It's definitely a case of Toriyama severely undercutting both characters because he had no interest in focusing on them, and he wanted a funny joke that the saiyans were too strong. If you asked him today, he'd probably first ask, "Who is Kaioshin?" and then after explaining that he wrote and drew a manga called Dragonball up until 1995, "(laughs) I don't know. Maybe both would win! (laughs more)" Whether it makes sense or not, I honestly get the impression Piccolo is meant to be still much weaker than Perfect Cell here, and Shin is maybe barely able to meet that threshold of power. And again, that makes no sense. But this is Dragonball writing we're talking about.

[@AtomicF0x]

Yeah unfortunately, I feel like Piccolo hit his stride in the early Cell Saga. Back when he was like a super namekian detective. In fact, with Goku out of the picture (for once), Piccolo almost became the new main character---and I was kinda liking it! He clobbered Dr. Gero, fused with Kami, went go toe-to-toe with imperfect Cell, tricked him into spilling his master plan, fought Android 17 to a standstill and then...kinda stopped being useful once Cell reached his second stage. I don't remember much from the series that came after (Buu Saga, GT), but it definitely didn't seem to involve Piccolo a lot.

[@BrenzOTnT]

​@@AtomicF0xPiccolo basically become a glorified babysitter for Goten and Trunks after Cell saga

[@ThatGuy-a48]

​​@@AtomicF0x" super namekian detective" is my new favorite word

[@ThatGuy-a48]

I wish dragon ball had a creator that cared half as much as the fanbase ( wish we could just git rid of him at this point as he does more harm than good these days )

[@rexder6890]

@@ThatGuy-a48 Never let this guy wish for things again

[@LSMMIKE]

Hey guys. Thanks for watching. This video ended up being a lot more in-depth than I expected. I hope you all enjoy.

[@gavinauslachen2487]

i like your videos i like you! Good work! Greetings from a german guy

[@Kuchemist]

Great Vid! on one of your other videos I asked about Goten vs. Buu the match-up at the end of Z...can you do that one. Thanks. Hope all is well

[@DrewRichardson-dv8tu]

Have you ever pad Thai and chilled?

[@BD032]

I have a suggestion for you. I don't know if this was already covered by you or not but how about this as a topic.... Could Bulma have made Android 16 stronger when she initially fixed him?

[@TophDaGreat]

i feel that Beerus and Whis are what Shin and Kibito were intended to be. From the moment we saw them something was just off. The tone of the initial encounter. The mysterious yet ambiguous music during the meeting. Finally, the smug creepy smile Shin had when he shook Goku's hand. It always felt like they were intended to be villainous corrupt gods or at the very least characters that were manipulative in nature, but then something happened in the script writing. Its like Toriyama got cold feet or someone higher up told him to change the villain to someone else.

[@Alienldr]

I don't agree that Toriyama may have wanted to make them villains at first. But I did like how he made them suspicious with their behavior. He didn't have to make them villains because sprinkling in the potential like that brought on the mystery and made them more exciting as is. It's like in Super in the tournament of power, when the first universe was erased. If it was left just as that, then that's one thing. But they added a smile to the angel afterwards that caused weeks of fan theories about why he did that, are the angels evil, what are they planning, etc. That doesn't mean that must be prove the angels were planned to be evil but the creator later changed their mind. It's just a story telling device to put in a little tease to make the scene better.

[@mups4016]

I'm pretty damn sure piccolo's unease was kami screaming at his subconscious to not throw hands with god out of respect. Piccolo isn't known for throwing fights like that, but then again he turns into a complete mook later in the arc.

[@justinalbin7272]

Your videos are always a treat. You've got a lot of exuberance for the franchise and the clear joy you take in talking about Dragon Ball has rekindled my love for the franchise as well. I especially enjoy seeing the manga frames and discussion, I've only watched the anime so seeing the differences is always intriguing. Thank you for the great content.

[@Jim_Lahey101]

I always felt Piccolo should have won, but was just so freaked out as to why the highest deity in the entire universe (at the time) was there. It would have been like fighting God.

[@LowResCatExplosion]

Exactly. I remember reading a comment a few years ago that was something like "imagine you're in the octagon and your next opponent comes out and it's the pope. You could definitely beat him; but you really * *really* * don't want to"

[@guardiantree8879]

Yeah, he basically acted like Vegeta did when Beerus showed up.

[@arkkon2740]

Then again Goku did the same thing with Kami back in the day

[@calvinabels4910]

Still is the highest deity in the universe lol.

[@calvinabels4910]

Beeris and shin are of the same one is chaos other creation

[@Zekersaurusrex]

Piccolo puts wisdom before pride. He felt there was something strange and unsettling about his opponent. He decided not to risk it. Think about it. If Supreme Kai turned out to be a powerful enemy, it's best he knows very little about what Piccolo can do. Piccolo down plays himself but I have to give the win to Supreme Kai based on feats.

[@bulldawg986]

Def gotta give it to shin he actually wouldve embarrassed piccolo especially after mental nerf. Wouldve froze him in place and landed him outside the ring with ease!

[@NoLimitSquad]

Shins smile in the thumbnail always made me lol when I was a kid

[@EndoScorpion]

The way I interpret Shin letting Goku fight Vegeta is that, whether it was Goku vs Shin, or Goku vs Vegeta, it would still be a fight that would give energy to Buu. Shin says "do whatever you want" and saves his energy for when the real threat shows up. The fact Shin could negate Buu's attack that nearly kills SSJ2 Gohan, and a beat up Shin survived a blast that crippled Majin Vegeta, with only minor injuries to himself. Those things say a lot to me. Shin does't seem scared to fight anyone either. He just doesn't want to give Buu energy, and doesn't realise how strong the saiyans are. He wasn't even scared to fight Buu, and Buu is the one person he was scared of. As for Piccolo, we just have no idea what level he's on. Probably above SSJ1, but not quite SSJ2. I don't think he was simply showing respect to the Lord of Lords, because he didn't even know Shin was the Lord of Lords at the time. At best he suspected maaaybe Great Lord of Worlds. Regardless, I wish he got to fight Dabura: Demon King vs Demon King Jr. Piccolo's lack of combat in this arc is disappointing.

[@dizk5283]

Farmer with the shotgun destroys them.

[@christaylor7916]

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

Piccolo Jr would win, he already underestimated the Saiyans so piccolo probably be stronger then he would think

[@KyogresHideout_Vegito2121]

I never interpreted it as a power thing even as a kid but rather as a respect thing. Since Piccolo has Kami as part of him his consience wouldn't let him hit god.

[@intuitivelymagician2076]

I watched the scene a dew days and you posted this. Crazy synchronicity

[@dumnbuger]

Is it possible the respect for authority comes from kami influence?

[@LSMMIKE]

Most likely. Shin even makes mention of him being the previous god of Earth.

[@guardiantree8879]

I think Piccolo was probably close in strength to Dabura. Even if Piccolo was weaker, his vastly superior skill in fighting probably gets him the win.

[@stephano2996]

Yea Piccolo was probably around Semi-Perfect Cell level after this hyperbolic time chamber training in the Cell arc. So yea it wouldnt be a weird assumption to make Piccolo would be around Goku/Gohan level in their SSJ1 mastered forms vs Perfect Cell back then in the Majin Arc. The dude just never stops training/meditating. His only issue is he doesnt have the broken zenkai boosts. My general thoughts of Piccolo is he can take anything that is SSJ1 or below hands down but SSJ2+ is out of his league.

[@guardiantree8879]

@@reptilian_geneticist They actually fought, Piccolo isn’t getting speed blitzed. Give Piccolo a heads up about the spit & he may have won.

[@guardiantree8879]

@@reptilian_geneticist Though I was talking about getting the win against the Supreme kai, not Dabura.

[@guardiantree8879]

@@reptilian_geneticist Then how did Piccolo fight him for a bit? They got caught off guard by Kibito Kai getting blown up (including the Saiyans). If Piccolo knew about the spit before hand he could at least know to avoid it.

[@guardiantree8879]

@@reptilian_geneticist Shin didn’t get his warning out before Dabura spat on them. Just saying, like in the video we don’t know Piccolo’s true strength at the time. He could definitely be about Dabura’s power.

[@trisxart2393]

I feel like piccolo could win this fight, not only did he train in the hbtc and training for 7 years, but he had never actually taken off his weighted gi, which he could be much more piwerful off. So power wise Piccolo, technique wise Shin.

[@ALEXANDERATTACK]

Mike man, I love these videos. Educated, well articulated, funny. Your videos make me so happy man. Thank you.

[@bootkickgaming6724]

For whatever reason, these are my favorite style of videos from LSM. Solo, sifting through the panels with explanations and examples. And yes I paused to read "this" XD

[@syntheticderangement]

5:13 - Saying “higher in the hierarchy” five times fast got me saying “high um I’m harukari”.

[@stamina4days]

Shin's eyes are going to live in my head, rent free, forever.

[@WetBanditYGO]

Hey Mike, love the video and great analysis as usual! The inclusion of the original manga panels is such a great tool, as it clears all inaccuracies people have with the way they misremember DBZ, partially due to people having watched it a long time ago and also because of the dub-only dialogue changes. How did you get such crisp manga panels anyway?

[@AndrewAce.]

Indeed...

[@travishomewood8657]

Supreme Kai MAY have had more raw power, especially with his godly magics. However he would have been caught by surprise, especially when Piccolo took off his weighted clothing. He didn't think the mortals had any power levels close to him and was constantly surprised by the sayains raw power so he didn't think much of Piccolo. So while Kai may be the stronger fighter, it would have been close enough it would have been a good fight and Piccolo could have caught him off guard and won by ring out surprise

[@Pastamist]

Piccolo is also a genius fighter; it’s kind of his main shtick lol This was actually used by Super Buu when he absorbed him and Gotenks; he was on par with Gohan, but he used mind games to get the edge.

[@SpammytheHedgehog]

If Piccolo had his potential unlocked between the Cell and Buu Saga, like he did in Super Hero. Then Piccolo would've mopped the floor with Shin.

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

He would anyway, shin was scared of all of babidi's minions

[@negaknivez4554]

Shin was about as strong as frieza final form on namek, anyone except the earthlings would have eaten him alive in a serious bout

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

​@@hitrule5722 not really besides Dabura and even he was made to be a push over

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

@@hitrule5722 they were jobbers

[@jaxsetbertoncarlism8873]

​@@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD apparently pui pui and yakon are leagues above frieza

[@phantomsruin3454]

People always underestimate supreme Kai. I'm pretty sure he was around Goku in his grade 4 super Saiyan in the cell games and piccolo is still weaker than that Goku so my money is on supreme kai

[@juliocabral6949]

Elder Kai to Supreme Kai after potara fusion: "Nope. Don't go to fight. You're stronger now but you weren't much to begin with".

[@Nestle245]

Grade 4? What's that?

[@phantomsruin3454]

@@Nestle245 well When Vegeta was fighting semi perfect cell he called himself super Vegeta and you know how he got extra buff that's grade 2. Trunks when he fought perfect cell used grade 3 super sayian or ultra super Saiyan as some people call it. The mastered version of super sayian is grade 4 the version Gohan and Goku used against Perfect cell. And grade 5 is also known as ssj2

[@TheRealBDouble]

I never quite understood why Shin seemed so arrogant. He walked around with this smug look on his face at the beginning and then was all shocked when he saw how powerful everyone was

[@JSun3000]

I'm still very intrigued by this alleged "demon realm",and whether there are strong fighters there.Toriyama probably forgot about it.

[@derekclawson5707]

I wouldn't say that smile was creepy but more intriguing.

[@JackmcCoy1933]

Being able to stop a blast from.BUu doesn't necessarily mean he is on par with the super saiyans, he just have a different kind of power kinda like Divine magic. I think that's what Toriyama wanted to express here but unable to explain more clearly

[@craigpeoples9883]

But Shin thinks Frieza is a joke how could he not not be super saiyan level

[@JackmcCoy1933]

@@craigpeoples9883 Im referring to the super saiyan level achieved by the saiyans at that very moment his with them not the super Saiyan on namek level.

[@craigpeoples9883]

@@JackmcCoy1933Actually he's as strong as Goku when he was up against Cell but I see you're point but he was able to hold Gohan as a super saiyan 2

[@JackmcCoy1933]

@@craigpeoples9883 IMO He was able to hold super saiyan 2 Gohan using his magic-like divine power, and also Gohan was so confused at that time, he has no idea what was going on, and although he was on his most powerful form he was caught off guard by Shin. Then spopobitch and yamu also attacked him.while Kibito his supposed to be opponent is just standing in front of him.

[@JackmcCoy1933]

@@craigpeoples9883 I think if Piccolo becomes accustomed to Shin's unique abilities, he has a good chance of beating Shin. And I also think there's a reason why he got so spooked the time dabura was shown outside their ship together with babidi. It's a clear indication for me that he ain't even on dabura's level. Which was at that time on the same level with Super perfect Cell.

[@brightwolfz]

As far as Dragon Ball KZbinrs go, you are the only one I've seen that does research to this degree. Love it so much. My friends, who are more common dragon ball fans where they've watched the series once, seen abridged, and that's about it, tend to laugh at me when I try to explain that characters like Piccolo and Tien are not nearly as weak as they think. Hell, even Yamcha is popping off a bit after his contribution in the Moro arc in Super's manga. You made me realize with this video that Piccolo was EVEN STRONGER than what I thought. I tell them to look at the beginning of the Android arc where Piccolo is probably 35-45x Vegeta's base based on what Piccolo is capable of compared to SSJ Vegeta. I also think Tien in base keeps up with the saiyans in base (excluding mystic Gohan). I think once you hit the super manga, it is far harder to gauge Tien versus the base saiyans. I also like how you tend to rely on the manga first, then anime, and take the guides with a grain of salt. The guides, to me, feel all over the place and people tend to listen to them like their are the hard truth full stop. They knew fans speculated, so it was literally printing money and probably little thought went into it (if not evident by the contradictions). It's why I hate using them for a resource at all. I much rather just look at what the series in-universe gives me to work with. Other random tangent, I also like to believe Super Perfect Cell was near Fat Buu in power, but Fat Buu has way more hax. SSJ2 Gohan only beat SPC because he got lucky and Cell's regeneration is weaker than characters like Majin Buu. That's just my head canon though and not supported directly by anything unlike other stuff I go off about. Anyways, thanks for the fun video. I love listening to something Dragon Ball related that I don't heavily disagree with for once, haha.

[@masaomorinaga6412]

"Jigen ga chigau" literally means "different dimension" but it just means something like "different level" and has nothing to do with otherworldliness. This is because "jigen" (dimension) in Japanese carries the sense of a "plane of existence" (like how humans are on a different level of existence compared to insects even though we all live in the same world)

[@TylerHolt-hh5cf]

That's not what "plane of existence" means. "A different plane" is like the afterlife.

[@masaomorinaga6412]

@@TylerHolt-hh5cf A different plane is not necessarily the afterlife. The concept of the Great Chain of Being is based on the notion of different planes of existence, ranging from God to inanimate objects. While the top beings are otherworldly, the bottom beings inhabit the same world as humans. The phrase "jigen ga chigau" is often used in anime to describe a being with a totally different level of power, even though that being inhabits the same universe.

[@MicahBuzanANIMATION]

I love these "what if" scenarios. I feel like the BUU saga had so much wasted potential, much like GT: great ideas, but not always the best execution.

[@sigiligus]

Kind of a worthless statement. Almost anything has the potential to be a "great idea." But the formal competence of art is what gives it value, not its ideas. The "good idea" sort of thinking is how you get nonsense such as a banana taped to a wall at an art gallery. The Buu saga was a banana taped to the Dragon Ball franchise. I don't care what "ideas" it has. It's a banana.

[@TylerHolt-hh5cf]

​@@sigiligus what if the banana was turned just the right way? Would that change your tune?

[@OurKindofEntertainment]

They did Shin worse than Future Trunks in the Android/Cell arcs. Remember how Trunks was so mysterious and cool during his first appearance in the story? Dude went Super Saiyan to take Frieza and his papa down before meeting Goku and delivering a warning of a future threat. Sure, Goku blocked all of his sword strikes with one finger, but that didn't take away from Trunks' cool factor. Goku recognized his strength and that added to the fan support of this future swordsman. The problem was when Trunks came back after the androids had arrived and 95% of his dialogue had to do with begging his father NOT to fight the androids and then beating himself up for not knowing about these other mysterious creatures (Numbers 16, 19 20 and Cell) along with 17 and 18 of the present being stronger than the ones from his future. By this point in the series, Trunks was always shocked by how powerful the enemies were. Shoot, even after going Grade 3, he LOST that fight due to his inexperience as a warrior to recognize the bulky muscles preventing him from catching the opponent. Shin was done dirty because he had Piccolo crapping himself (not even sure if Namekians use the restroom) by just standing in front of him, but then you had Shin shocked at every person who showed up on Babidi's ship. He saw how stronger SS2 Gohan was and was present as Vegeta scoffed at how weak he was now compared to his Cell Saga persona. You'd think he'd know that Goku and Vegeta were more powerful from the dialogue. He just looked more pathetic than anything else being constantly surprised by the Saiyan trio. It would've helped if Kibito was the one shocked at every turn by the Saiyans (had he not been killed earlier). Official guidebooks state Kibito as being no match for Super Saiyan Gohan, but he would at least give base Gohan a decent fight in the tournament.

[@DShaoushoku19]

The Buu saga made Piccolo so dirty, he being the mentor role for Goten and Trunks was ok, but he could’ve at least do more. I remember when i was watching as a kid that I’ve wanted Piccolo to fight Dabura because both had the title of Demon king. And the way he reacted with Shin was so fucking bad, shin does absolutely nothing besides getting his ass kicked by Buu.

[@AsianEyes007]

I’ve always imagined Supreme Kai being relative to mastered SSJ Gohan or above. So essentially, equal to, or greater than mastered SSJ Gohan, but less than Perfect Cell.

[@blacx3646]

Due to plot armor piccolo would have lost . Piccolo would’ve just been a show case just to display the Supreme Kai’s power. Just my opinion. Although, I’d think Piccolo win if the fight was without restrictions.

[@christiane1680]

For a while i was confused on why piccolo was so scared, and my friend described it to me like this. Imagine your about to get ready to fight somone in a boxing match, then you turn around and see jesus. Like yeahhh, you probablly COULD kick his ass, but its the fact that mf jesus just came up to you.

[@LeonMarvel]

When its your first day on the job and you meet the fake supervisor

[@groovyq5359]

I also feel like Supreme Kia has alot of techniques and had body is super durable that makes him difficult opponent if Piccolo were to face off

[@KaiserMattTygore927]

From all the info in this video, I still think Piccolo would win, but it'd be an epic showdown like his fight with 17, a knockdown drag out brawl where there's a high chance of Shin taking a W as well. Still would think Piccolo would win more often than not.

[@ShadowDaHam]

I'm just now finding you and I love the content I've seen so far man! Don't be afraid to take the time to make the videos A1 instead of the text on screen, thanks coming from guys like me that listen to anime podcast type things. 😅😊

[@denickart]

I think in order for Supreme Kai to restrain SSJ2 Gohan with telekinesis the power gap between them couldn't have been too big. Like Chiaotzu was able to restrain Goku the same way back when they were still relatively close in level but the gap between him and Nappa was too big for his powers to work.

[@leons.kevinedyryman7377]

Nice breakdown! This observation may be off the mark, but here goes: To better understand these fighters power-wise, I compared Piccolo (Buu Saga) and Shin to Kid Trunks. Kid Trunks’ Super Saiyan may have been around Ascended Super Saiyan 1 (Super Vegeta). If that were true, I would also say that Piccolo (Buu Saga) is within that same sphere, putting him somewhere around Ascended Super Saiyan Grade 1, or maybe even closer to Perfected Super Saiyan (Goku at Cell Games). Dabura was speculated to be somewhere around Perfected Super Saiyan, and Shin showed extreme concern for his abilities. With Shin, it gets trickier (for me) because sometimes he holds back because his will to fight is not strong, and having seen Buu, he believes it is futile. During the direct confrontation with Buu and trying to inflict damage, Shin used Kiai a lot. His strengths lend more to telekinetic ability than physical, making me believe he’d be overwhelmed by someone with Piccolo’s skills and fighting experience.

[@Thromaz]

Lately after rewatching the series with the thought in mind I've been feeling like the guidebooks don't really line up with the series that well. Things like the multiplyers just don't seem to apply all that cleanly once we reach the cell saga. Narratively it comes off more like grade 2 is like another ssj(x50ish) transformation from unmastered ssj. Then ultra and Mastered ssj feel lime 2 branching paths where one takes transforming to the limits in converting energy to power and the other is taking that potential for transforming and stamina drain and transmuting it to augment the physical through more spiritual means in line with Kami's teachings since Goku keeps what he's learned. And ss2 feels like what happens if you go to grade 2 after attaining grade 4. But yea I don't think I trust the guidebooks anymore

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

Well mostly people don't know about the 21st, 22nd, & 23rd tournaments

[@DSan-kl2yc]

I think Shin would win. My guess is Shin is around perfect Cell. But piccolo is the one around Goku 7 years ago. Nothing indicates Piccolo had as much gains as the Saiyans. Because they have the ability to transform. Piccolo is building on his base. His base just got a boost. Even if you increase the experience he gains(due to absorbing 2 namekians, or just being whole), it doesn't match the Saiyan's gains. Vegeta thought he was useless before Vegeta went in again. Trunks might be surprised but that isn't saying piccolo is stronger than him. Remember that the Saiyans didn't just increase their power. They were trying to hack their transformation ability, activate it beyond the initial one. That goes beyond training your base. Which is all Piccolo can do. If Piccolo was that close to the Saiyan's, he probably would have surpassed Gohan with 7 years of training, but it's obvious he never did. So he has to be below Gohan, who's still around his cell game power. He may not be as strong as that day, but he's still stronger than super perfect Cell (remember that Gohan was injured and still won). Dabura is around super perfect Cell level because characters don't really differentiate between super and perfect, so around cell meant cell at his strongest(which is all that super perfect was to them, cell gaining strength). So piccolo is somewhere between ssj1 g4 Goku or Cell. Shin is probably not stronger than dabura. But he's probably not totally far off. Gohan is stronger than him in the same way he was against perfect Cell to me. Remember how totally Gohan dominated perfect Cell. It's still a significant difference.

[@BelartWright]

Both are hugely underestimated characters. I used to think Piccolo was stronger than Shin due to Shin's reactions to Pocus (PuiPui) and Yakon. But Shin has some crazy durability feats against Buu. I think Shin was about as strong as MSSJ Goku from the Cell games or stronger and I think Piccolo was was about that strong too but a little weaker. Neither could touch an SSJ2 or Cell at full power from the Cell Games. I think it would be a good fight but Shin's magic would put him firmly above Piccolo IMO since he was able to hold back SSJ2 Gohan. The Buu arc did both characters dirty in terms of power scaling but it really made Shin look like a pushover when he's actually fairly strong.

[@3-dreticle826]

Shows how great Dr Gero was. He had limited outdated information on the constantly evolving Z fighters. He still created multiple androids stronger than them. And 2 androids stronger than a god. Cell and 16. Shin is fodder bro. When you take into account how old shin is. His status and access to unique abilities and knowledge he should have been way stronger. He’s a god. Not saying kid buu strong but at least above Perfect cell level. Or better yet comparable to fat buu. Because fat buu is the weakest version due to his absorption of a Kai making him less evil. Now way shin should be below perfect cell level. Like Beerus said he fail to maintain control of his universe.

[@BelartWright]

@@3-dreticle826 Yeah, Gero's machines are broken even to this day. #17 won the universe survival tournament which had all the strongest fighters in the multiverse at the time including 1 God of Destruction candidate and a man-made artificial human won it all. On top of that, a completed Cell Max could solo the whole tournament.

[@3-dreticle826]

@@BelartWright I agree! Certain niche abilities allow fighters who are outclassed to be comparable due to match ups. The saying “styles makes fights” is true. Like Future trunks after the time chamber could have gone toe to toe with perfect cell eventually still lose but he couldn’t even touch him because he was too slow. In the Cell games. Goku went to toe with cell. Cell was stronger and faster but Goku was the crafty more experienced fighter. That bridged the gap. He took cells upper body clean off. Should have been a kill shot but cell had regenerated. He teleported cell to king Kai planet. He self destructed. Then regenerated. Technically cell suffered 2 fatalities against Goku. Gohan was the Superior fighter against cell. But he took to long and hot over confident. He got fatally injured and almost died. Shin is a god With unique abilities. That Center around indirect combat, long range, and defense. So him surviving against Fat buu doesn’t mean much. Even though gohan and Vegeta took more damage Majin Vegeta beat the dog shit out of fat buu. If he didn’t have demonic powers and regeneration Technically he should have died twice in that fight. SSJ3 Goku admitted he could have killed buu but he didn’t want to use up all his time on earth and wasn’t sure about him regenerating back. Shin is just fodder. Beerus is disgusted by his incompetence. That’s why he likes the Z fighters.

[@criixt]

I'd say the power to create is in a way more powerful than hakai energy. To create something out of nothing is a feat in itself. Anyone can destroy, whether it be punching something to smithereens, or using regular ki, or haikai energy. Comparing the gods of creation to other creation gods, asking who is stronger would be the wrong question to ask, its more like which creation god can create the best creation.

[@Ramonnnn]

Yes, i did notice it and read it😂 that didn't seem like a glitch to me😝 great content once again!🙏

[@quatromanthefourth4413]

Good move for the resume. Nobody is going to hire a perfectly fine slug man if he "fought his former boss and won".

[@bigddb92]

I read your mini disclaimer flawless victory 😂

[@aaronsalinas3854]

Good work as always

[@GeekCharmiing56]

For the record, I indeed paused the video and slowed it down enough to be able to read your message after seeing it. Guess I'm faster than a Gohan.

[@OkMakuTree]

Speaking of Pui Pui I’d be curious to hear your thoughts on where he stands power wise, that seems to be a topic with zero consensus from the community. Idk if any canon sources provide any extra details beyond what we see in the manga and anime

[@thejworks07]

Kami in piccolo was simply sensing Shins divinity The supreme kais power is around supersaiyan level See goku vs zamasu On the kai world in the black arch We already know special abilities cant be counted as a "feat" towards power level in relative to ki or scaling Cmon guys master roshi has abilities that made him relevant since Deagonball😂😂

[@RoyalGeeker]

Its at that moment you know Goku is a true ride or die."was he talking trash? Want me to put him in his place". My boy Goku was about to take Shin up through there for his bro over some slight disrespect verbally 😂🫡

[@jaruhcaz]

Man, this reminds me how crazy is the power scaling at db, like base goku and base vegeta are like total pushovers without transformations, and thanks to db super hero is posible to see how crazy powerful would a "weak" character would be at their level or highger with their transformations

[@LuffyBlack]

This channel made Pui Pui hilarious

[@makisbizarreadventure4669]

I feel like Shin's disbelief in these guys is because he's so surrounded by Magic and his mystical powers. Then these guys just show up and start bodying through all this with sheer strength, no magic involved whatsoever haha.

[@OurKindofEntertainment]

Even though Shin did better against Buu than Dabura & Gohan, we do have to point out: -Dabura was weakened from the eye gouge and kick through a mountain by Buu earlier. Dude was barely able to stand after tossing that spear through Buu's belly. So, he wasn't at 100% during that fight before getting eaten. Even though he wasn't shown to be exhausted or heavily damaged after his fight with Gohan, that possibly took a toll on him as well. -Gohan had used up A LOT of ki attacking Buu's ball before it hatched. So, he wasn't at 100% either. Remember that he was prior to blasting the ball because Goku gave him a Senzu to recover from the fight with Dabura. If nothing else, it seemed like Buu was having fun with Shin for the sake of playing with his food. It was almost like he was annoyed with Gohan and Dabura leading to him tossing them aside with ease. Maybe because Babidi was enjoying it so much, he took his time with torturing Shin.

[@stormrhode2330]

I totally agree about the assessment in the video EXCEPT for one thing: the way you say "comparable." 😂 I know this was almost a year ago, so maybe you've since learned how to say it. But for someone who makes a ton of comparison videos, it's definitely not a good word to constantly say wrong. Otherwise, yeah, I think you did a pretty good job.

[@RobertLoyale]

Piccolo would be a janitor in this fight

[@Gargoyle_75]

You forget one detail: shin can paralyse Piccolo, but Piccolo could use telekinesis to throw him out at the same time…

[@Naturalfittness4ev]

I'm glad there's a vid showing Supreme Kai power.

[@divineeternity7268]

Supreme Kai knew that the fighters on Earth wasn't as strong as most fighters universally so the Z fighters caught him off guard with there high power levels.🤷

[@crisstoff89]

Shin is wierd power wise since he kind of is useless after the reveal. People go by Shin paralyzing Gohan SSJ2 but a bit later Shin is shitting himself when Goku threatened him in his SSJ1, not to mention he isnt a good figther , he mostly relies on his magic, people forget Babidi used his magic on Vegeta and Vegeta is a legit SSJ2 level and what happened to Babidi ? He got stomped by Piccolo. We see instances of this earlier in original dragon ball where Blue paralyzing Goku and once he cant he gets stomped. Piccolo couldnt tell how strong Shin was but he just thought he was a big deal , all in all I see Kaioshin as a one trick pony , he can win as long as his "hax" works and doesnt screw up anything else he is trash compared to Buu saga fighters.

[@Thromaz]

This is a topic I've wanted to see

[@jelloistasty]

The what if scenario in BT2 "What if Goku and Vegeta got their rematch in the tournament" Piccolo defeats Shin, causing Shin to take him alone to go fight Dabura. He isnt strong enough to beat Dabura but he's shown to be superior to Shin in that scenario.

[@fruit3193]

I'm of the opinion that Piccolo likely was more physically powerful, but Supreme Kai's magic would give him an edge. The magic was what Piccolo feared most. Also I paused for 33:17 lol

[@derekclawson5707]

In terms of tournament setting I give the edge to Shin.. but in terms of actual wasteland combat I give the edge to piccolo. Kind of like fighting in the ring versus street fighting, rules fighting versus anything goes.

[@sirlottawin]

Great video

[@jelloistasty]

12:39 Super: alow me to introduce myself...

[@SSJRanulf]

My personal opinion is that Piccolo couldn't have done as well against Buu as Kaioshin did. I'm not saying Kaioshin was an all star, but he was in the conversation with Dabura and SSJ2 Gohan. It's my feeling based on what we see that Piccolo wouldn't have fought on that level, but the one under it. He probably could have contributed similarly to Goten and Trunks - a surprise attack with impact, but I think he'd have been oneshotted. I'd have loved if both these characters were written stronger and got to do more. Kaioshin should have been directly comparable to SSJ2 Gohan IMO, and Piccolo not far off from the SSJ fighters. I wish both got a chance to fight someone in the ship. There was room to give these two time to shine, but they just didn't get it.

[@williamcatala154]

Piccolo, my boy. Shin said he could one-shot Namek Saga 100% Frieza, but Piccolo had already surpassed that point when he fused with Kami in the Cell Saga. If the fight hadn't been interrupted, Piccolo probably would've won just due to the vast difference in strength between the two.

[@EnoYaka]

It looks like Shin had to put effort into holding Gohan in place, not sure that he could use it and attack piccolo at the same time.

[@OurKindofEntertainment]

Even though it was never truly confirmed, I thought Buu Saga Piccolo would possibly scale around the power of Full Power Super Saiyan Goku/Gohan during the Cell Games. That would make him stronger than Gohan unless he pulled out his SS2 form. Goku & Vegeta would probably get a decent fight from Piccolo in their regular Super Saiyan forms, but I still say they'd be above him. As for Shin, I'd say power/ability wise; he's greater than Piccolo. However, we've seen time and time again that power doesn't mean everything. If these two actually fought during the tournament, I would say that Shin would be on defense for a good chunk of the battle. Why? See, I always wagered that he and Kibito were there to scout the power of the fighters for the sake of their goal. I think the fight might go a bit like Yamcha vs. Hero during the 23rd tournament. Hero was 'playing with his food' while battling Yamcha no matter what attacks he tried, but the Spirit Ball caught him off guard leading to a clean hit. That made him take the fight seriously and take Yamcha out with one strike. I think the same might happen with Shin where Piccolo would be pulling out all the stops and even surprise Shin here and there with his abilities; extended limbs, Hellzone Grenade, speed increase minus the weighted clothes, etc. I'm not sure what technique would get Shin to go 'Ok, I need to end this ASAP!' but he'd do it in order to move to the next round. However, Piccolo with his smarts, determination and regeneration might give Shin a run for his money. As you pointed out, Shin constantly underestimated the Saiyan while on Babidi's ship. Now, imagine how much he'd underestimate Piccolo. I think that alone would possibly give him the edge to come out on top.

[@rainbowbrony12]

lol, if Piccolo thought he was just one of the kais, idk why he acted so scared. This is the same guy that mouthed off to King Kai a lot during the namek saga.

[@Naruku2121]

Hm, I just figured the 'Great Potential' thing from Dabura just meant they had the most potential to actually being useful for their plans.

[@tehjboney4249]

Piccolo sensed a familiar spirit in the Supreme Kai being a godly presence in Shin’s energy,but the reason he didn’t challenge him was because of his respect for the higher plane of existence. The God’s are highly respected among the cosmos and are shown this respect through DBZ especially during the Other World Tournament Arc in the anime which touches more on the God hierarchy. The Grand Kai is the most respected being in the Other World as he ruled over all other Kai’s,but it was revealed much later in the Buu Arc that only one God rules over his being the Supreme Kai’s. Most of the Supreme Kai’s were killed by the actions of Bibidi and his monster Buu who ravaged the universe with Buu even absorbing both the South Kai and later even the Grand Kai.

[@jelloistasty]

Id love to see a video explaining how Dr Gero was stronger than Frieza..

[@owenblount7334]

You mean no. 20?

[@nazimuddin5122]

@@owenblount7334 same thing. 20 was his designation but his name is Gero.

[@LSMMIKE]

I already made that video. You can see it here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nofZmX9jj7aZkMU

[@jelloistasty]

@@LSMMIKE I'd appreciate if you could give a timestamp of the part where you actually describe the feats/evidence that point to Dr Gero being superior to Frieza. You mainly just described how good earths technology is in the franchise and how it isnt far fetched that Dr Gero would be able to build androids stro ger than Frieza (hence the title). Good video dont get me wrong but it in no way answered my question. Do you think Piccolo was stronger than Frieza or Namek Ssj before fusing with Kami? He was certainly above Gero and 19.

[@LSMMIKE]

I've done other videos about Gero in the past. I may have explained it in one of those. When you make hundreds of videos, it's easy to lose track. I did however discuss Piccolo's strength in the Cell Saga here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/ZnWVeaiOgbd9iKs

[@RicardoKoei]

I aways wanted to see the supreme kai have a magic based fight with babidi, but i guess toryama wouldnt want to draw a fight without cool martial arts poses

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

I think kami took over piccolo jr's body during this time

[@SuperSohSo]

That’s funny they just asked this on FB a few days ago

[@mannyswift]

🤔 I think piccolo would of won, the only reason he didn’t fight him was because of respect and who the supreme Kai was. Piccolo was pretty strong towards the end of the cell saga

[@-SRM-]

@Laughingstock Media 4:00 Is this frame where you got the idea for the thumbnail backgrounds?

[@Ninjavsninja]

We don't know if Shin can suppress a fighter's power AND fight at the same time. He only used it once against Gohan who wasn't fighting Shin. Also Piccolo is a Namekian, it's not stated that he wouldn't have a work around to the technique as Namekians have magic, but also, Kami is within Piccolo, so there could be a defensive advantage against Shin's techniques especially since Shin is clearly not Stronger than Piccolo by a wide margin of at all.

[@sethtone8634]

love how Piccolo makes a wish and can curve stomp the lords of lords lol

[@everardo2345]

Do Ssj4 Goku vs Nouva shenron who would have won next!

[@XZAVIER-DAA-GOD]

Depends do Ring outs count

[@kebablake3305]

Supreme Kai's telekinesis feat is being overrated here. Yes, Shin could subdue Gohan (off guard mind you) but it meant Supreme Kai couldn't move either and it didn't look as if he would be able to keep it up for a long time. While he was shown using telekinesis to move massive objects of immense density later on in the arc, it wasn't hinted that he could paralyze and subsequently move another warrior around, especially one as powerful as Piccolo, for an easy ring out victory. It kind of reminds me of Guldo's paralysis; it could keep more powerful foes in place, but he'd also be neutralized in the process. My money is on Piccolo to win by tap out due to a Namekian Gogoplata after Shin holds him still for 5 minutes/ 9 episodes. Great video though, it's impressive how many of my childhood Dragon Ball questions and theories are covered here.

[@zeeh7438]

The Supreme Kai is always shown as being really incompetent at his job. Firstly, how could he have not known about mortals when they exceed his own power. Of course this was later explained when Super Buu regressed to his kid buu form. His training was incomplete because his more experience predecessors were wiped out by buu, it also explains why he doesn't know any hand to hand combat moves or at the very least he's never displayed them in his battle against Majin buu... So the only reference we have to compare is the other Supreme Kais of the universes in Super and especially Zamasu who was built to one of most talented and skilled fighters who was next in line to be the Kaoshin of universe 10. Toriyama and Toei are not expanding on this and they still refuse to touch the demon realm who have their own hierarchies.

[@juliocabral6949]

I hate so much what they did with Piccolo there. He would have destroyed Shin. And he shouldn't have his personality mixed with Kami's.

[@charlessoto1792]

My money is on Supreme Kai because of how well he did against Buu. Piccolo got spat on by Dabura. I'm aware of how strong Piccolo was during the Cell Games, but it almost seems like Piccolos power was retconned. Like in Resurrection F, where he was jobbing for Namek level henchmen.

[@MotoguyX5]

This video makes me realize just how much weaker Gohan was in the Buu saga vs Goku and Vegeta. I use to think he was maybe 25% weaker. This makes me realize he was half of their strength, maybe slightly more?

[@TylerHolt-hh5cf]

Twice as powerful as Super Perfect Cell. Makes sense. Also makes his Potential unlock that much sweeter. If true.

[@masterkc]

Gohan was that not that much weaker. Since goku and vegeta kept using cell and ssj2 kid gohan as a measuring stick. I would say gohan was as strong as cell games ssj goku and as a ssj 2 he was around super perfect cell level. Goku and vegeta were just a "little" stronger than cell games gohan.

[@iRenz0]

Well Shin definitely won that stare off