Piracy & Griefing in Star Citizen | What To Expect (Ft. Farrister & Avenger__One)

Star Citizen is an open game, it provides tools and dishes out consequences, which is true even in PvP gameplay. While there is a difference between piracy and griefing, the fact of the matter is both will occur. But where will they occur, why will they occur, and what can you do to avoid them? I discuss with Farrister and Avenger__One after their own discussion garnered a lot of attention.
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Farrister:
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Twitter: / thomasfarrister
Twitch: / farrister
Avenger__One:
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Twitch: / avenger__one
Twitter: / avenger__one
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#starcitizen #piracy #Pvp

[@kevinwatts8221]

The game griefs me so often, a pvp griefer is a breath of fresh air!

[@TheRealMiniIsHere]

I got pirated... or attempted pirated (funny because on farristers video i talked about how I was a pirate) Three ship started shooting my ship that was on landing pad to show their intent, I ran to my ship full of 100k cargo in a 400i and ran, they locked on, one or two ships launched torps while one typed "400i stop running pay a secruity fee of 50k or die!" I just ran and escaped because I knew my ship well enough to escape safely. It got my heart pumping of excitement. I loved it. I had someone trying to ram me, soon as I spawned my ships I had someone ram me as I was mining or tried to and failed to ram me. LOL I find that Greifing is mostly RAMMING and consistantly shooting unpiloted ships that just spawned. I don't call being targeted to be shot down greifing unless it was repeatedly constantly and focused purely on the one player just...becuase they could.

[@beavschannel5217]

I find it interesting that both brought up the point that people that just want to fight other players need a space to do that, but didn't bring up Arena Commander.

[@JakoMacro]

For most players, not the ones like A1, it’s the difference between fighting in DayZ and Call of Duty. You don’t get hardly any feel goods after getting a kill because of the high frequency and lack of stakes. No, the Persistent Universe has much more in common with a survival game, where players encounters are less frequent and the stakes are higher. Most PvP players don’t use arena commander because they care more about sending the other person to spawn than the actual bettering of their pilot skills. It’s the same thing with Tarkov. You kill the other player and knowing that you sent them back to their hideout just makes you feel good because you bested them. It’s the root of competition, stepping on competitors makes the victor feel good. This is a very natural process ingrained into every single morsel of life, on Earth at least. Plus I think arena commander needs a lot of improvement.

[@Glathgrundel]

I don't know why PvP players who want a challenge aren't just playing EVE ... maybe because Eve is TOO MUCH of a challenge and the easy kills they get from a prospector makes them feel bad-ass, but is much less of a risk to them. No loss of ship, no real consequences.

[@2334animelover]

@@Glathgrundel nah because then they just blow up a retriever

[@beavschannel5217]

@@JakoMacro so by as your statement that PVPers caring more about sending people to spawn, would that not mean they care more about killing people in the PU because it annoys the other person more in that situation? Would that not be the malicious intent that A1 and Farrister both agreed on being a hallmark of a griefer?

[@2334animelover]

@@beavschannel5217 Nah its kind of like eve logic. In the PU you have the stuff that people care about because you actually work for it. Someone who has something to actually lose is going to fight harder, giving you a better fight. So there is more of a personal reward if you win.

[@ToitleInTime]

Don’t forget that there are meant to be pirates in the system. When the game is more fleshed out, they won’t be just waiting for you at your mission location. They will be interdicting you in transit, they will be hunting you out in mining belts, and they will be appearing to attack players and other NPC’s regardless of how safe you wish your location was. I see no difference between players finding and attacking other players, and NPC’s doing the exact same thing. There should be no time or place in the Stanton system where you aren’t on the lookout for danger, and expecting to be ready to fight or flee at any moment. The only problem I can see at the moment is the fact that new players currently have to spend their first hours in SC in such a system.

[@diamondswiss8026]

Interestingly enough, it is possible to be randomly interdicted by NPCs while QTing around the system. Only issue is that the NPCs that interdict you are usually in something squishy

[@aeoteroa818]

Exactly. Everyone acts like the verse should be a utopia where they should never be harmed without agreeing to it. If someone wants to sign on and murder everyone they see, fuckin do it. Tired of people crying because they don't like other people's play styles.

[@rabbahhagri1493]

What also should be addressed is that some PVP players want to impose their desire to pvp on everyone on their terms when they want to do it regardless

[@Neogentronyx]

Any ship that can defend itself or destroy a "light fighter" and is not also a "light fighter" gets nerfed. Seems obvious whose side C.I.G. is on. Plus which type of ship is most produced, and sold? "Light fighters". Oh and I agree with you btw.

[@gyratingwolpertiger6851]

As a mining org for what it's worth we make an effort to always be prepared to repell pirates when mining or selling and to round up the possee to go bounty hunting when someone starts to get a bit too agro. Either that or offer bounties on their heads out of our own pocket

[@AcareMiningReclamation]

As a Mining Org that wants to operate in tthose dangerous areas, I want PvP risk involved, that makes every run intense. Something that isn't covered enough in training of non-PvP gameplay is how to escape. There are lots of tricks that will enable you to get away from pirates and to safety. Miners, traders, and non-PvPers should realize this and set themselves up for success if they are engaged by PvPers or pirates.

[@watermelon58]

There is so much to the game and by extension so much you can do to protect yourself including running away or planing. There is no shame in running or fighting or just being impossible to find in the first place.

[@gyratingwolpertiger6851]

@@watermelon58 I always try to have my org in the mebtity of you will get bounced eventually.

[@ayaakiosawa0]

The org I'm in engages in all loops so we'll take control of a part of space and all jobs can be active but we own the available loops and members who need money get shares. Last night we took over GH and looted jettisoned loot into a caterpillar from 3 dead reclaimers and 2 dead C2's. Then we came back in reclaimers and scrapped, ground team switched to box boys and we made an evening in it.

[@JakoMacro]

Excited to listen! Thanks for getting this out in a timely manner, Tomato!

[@SpaceTomatoToo]

Always trying!

[@applecrow8]

I was brought into SC pvp through Jumptown where I was shot for not declaring myself to the people controlling it. Months later I'm in that org and somehow found my way into the combat pilot wing. I came to the game just wanting to be a space trucker and now I'm helping train our new pilots.

[@TotalDbag24]

Honestly, Farris made a good point. Pretty much every game starts you off in a safe area to learn the game and then lets them choose when they're ready to go to a more dangerous area. And I think an addition of that in some sort of way would fix a lot. Like if they say made Microtech the safe area and start new players there. They could add a system where if a player gets attacked in Microtech a distress beacon sets off and 30 seconds later a few F8 Lightnings (that are actually good pilots) pop up and defend that'd deter most people from engaging in PVP there.

[@mariuskraft3155]

Hi. Had an interesting session last night with three new friends (one noob) in a Starfarer. Due to some "issues" with controls (me), we could not stop for a random control and we (at least me) got a CS 1. We decided to go to Grim Hex to resolve this issue at a terminal and met a bountyhunter on the way to the station. The bountyhunter (who's name shall not be mentioned) gave us some time to resolve the issue at a terminal, but due to various problems (elevator etc.), it seems we still registered as criminals and the BH camped GH and wanted 50K aUEC to let us go. This led to a hillarious chase around the system, ending with two of the members of the party (the noob and the captain (not me)) being killed at Hurston. Quite fun, but bloody expensive in the end for what was basically a fine for not stopping in time...

[@IIITangentIII]

I like where this discussion went with these two and I think the only real problem I had watching the avenger one video was that if PVP is the only thing that pvpers are finding fun because they like the competitive nature, they would spend all of their time in arena Commander. That is where people go for PVP where they're going to get the challenge that good PVP can give. If it's all about that adrenaline rush of fighting a good opponent they would only fight each other, but unfortunately where it feels like griefing to many gamers, is when good skilled PVP players go out and hunt unskilled players. More commonly I find it is mediocre or average pvpers that pray on the weak because they suck against good pvpers. So in that sense they are just bullies and it feels like griefing to noobs or those who avoid PVP.

[@Glathgrundel]

Griefing ... real, provable griefing is ONLINE BULLYING and shouldn't be tolerated. It isn't just about gaming, it is about toxic social interaction and CIG have a duty of care to pull up people targeting others who are DELIBERATELY targeting others specifically to ruin their time. We play video games knowing that there are adversarial elements, but people who are genuinely there to bully others need to be held accountable.

[@IIITangentIII]

@@Glathgrundel I agree 👍

[@NotUnymous]

This Game - by design - is a PVP game. And thats not opinion. Its the fundamental core of it's design. It also gives PVE. And in its absolute extremes it can give non-combat-gameplay. Somewhat. Again, by design. So to say "PVP Player should play StarMarine etc" is way off. It would make far more sense for non-combat-play to not play a PVP game.

[@aoescool]

in every game I've played there is a big difference between in world pvp and arena pvp.. in arena you can either get a gang fest or if it's organized thing or usually just repeated 1v1 fight.. the 1v1 fights are great to gain a greater understanding of the game plus learning to be a better pvper.. in world pvp gives all the thrills of regular gameplay plus there's a chance a player can come get you.. where star citizen does it better than other games is that we are all the same level.. only difference is our gear or ship.. as a miner or trader if you know there might be other players out there that might kill you doing your day to day money making, then you should pay for protection.. or get pirated.. 90%of the time you will be lucky especially when more systems come out.. you will barely meet up with someone if you're smart about it.. but at the end of the day to make star citizen the realistic it can be you have to have that unknown element of players coming to get you

[@IIITangentIII]

Realistic would mean consequences. In real life it is a tiny percentage of the population that go around murdering people and the consequences are high. In the game there is a high percentage of murderers with almost no consequences. It isn't realistic. It is also forcing the PVP players desire to fight onto a players that didn't want a fight. Only one player is getting what they want and that is always the player who wants PVP. That isn't exactly fair. Nor is it good sport. There is also a thing called skill cap so the absurd quote to "get good" is already dumb because skill ceilings are very different from each other. My friend could practice 10000 hours and never kill avenger one even once. Other players don't want to practice something they have no interest in the same way that I'm not going to mine in the game because I hate mining. Forcing our own viewpoint or beliefs on other players or making them play the game the way we think they should isn't a good thing.

[@wildwizard8884]

SC is aiming to be a simulator to a large extent - and so I really feel that random unjustified attacks should be able to occur, just with real, really real, consequences. If you go around in a second-hand ex soviet destroyer or something blowing up cruise ships real world - what do you expect would happen? Just dock at Dover and buy a burger? And do you think an endless supply of armed large ships is really realistic to any extent? Don't see Han Solo popping into a showroom and buying a Star Destroyer that instantly appears in a hanger do you? Just my thoughts.

[@NotUnymous]

I dont get why anybody would think that SC wants to be primarly a SIM. Beside, it is nonsense to compare the far of fantasy future with Alien races and Jumppoint tech to today. To make the point ""they" should be punished like someone who would - now and here - randomly be sinking civilian ships" is - sorry to say - completly off. Because the game - even IF it WOULD be a SIM...No, even If it COULD be a SIM - dont play by todays rulebook. It would be in the far of future. With cloning. And Aliens. And a lot of space. And ages over ages to morph society into something completly different from now.

[@Banzai51]

CIG has stated several times they are not looking to make this a simulation, but a game with simulation aspects. People take the simulation argument way too far.

[@wildwizard8884]

@@Banzai51 A game with simulation aspects is exactly where I believe it is heading and should be heading, no disagreement there - you are just taking my point to an extreme unnecessarily.

[@Banzai51]

@@wildwizard8884 I think it is because too many SC players insist this is a simulation and all that implies.

[@KhairulFadzlyAKarim]

I think this is where the reputation gameplay comes in, you do stupid things like random killing people you might be welcome in Pyro but the security will shoot you on sight in Stanton.

[@nip3004]

I love how growing up griefing was easily defined as setting out to cause grief. And now loads of people interpret it as anything that inconveniences me.

[@gabzsy4924]

I know exactly what this game needs besides a strong law system. This game needs an arena in the PU (just like we have races), where players can engage in "gladiatorial" fights to the death ranking up a ladder. The strongest of them would also gain a plaque with their name engraved for all to see and I think this place should be named after Avenger One as he is the representative of this aspect of the game. Plus I'm sure his name would be in a plaque anyway. I would imagine the arena to be situated in a place like Pyro. On the other hand I would also love to see an Intergalactic Embassy of some sort carrying the name of Farrister, after his diplomatic and very humble mature. Contrary to the arena this place would be situated on a very civilized and protected area of the universe, perhaps Stanton itself. This would symbolize both aspects of the game and make part of the community immortalized into the PU. Plus I feel like it would also serve as a lesson, that even with different points of view the universe is an enormous place where we can all live as we please. After all this is a space sim is it not?

[@SSZaris]

I literally only do courier runs and lost cargo missions. It's the reason I bought the game. At the same time though, if Pyro courier missions were going to pay more because of a higher risk of attack I'm going to spend the majority of my time there. If there was no risk I wouldn't feel as good when I finish a mission/delivery. If I'm transporting a really valuable load I'm going to hire some protection or try and find a route that will take me around people instead of through them. To me PvP and pirates are what make my delivery missions and cargo hauling worth it.

[@landslide8703]

I really enjoyed this discussion! I'm a consistent watcher of both channels and this was the best crossover episode I could hope for.

[@loadmastermoe]

A topic that has some strong feelings for many. Thanks for moderating the conversation!

[@SpaceTomatoToo]

Glad to be able to host!

[@loadmastermoe]

@@SpaceTomatoTooI agree with y'all. - A pirate is after something to gain. - A person that wants to see the world burn as Reavers from Serenity. They kill to kill. The game and players work to deal with them. - Griefers target single people or an area (like a station) over and over clearly to ruin the game for others. Gain nothing and have gone beyond just killing to kill.

[@Glathgrundel]

@@loadmastermoe If someone just flies around in a Hurricane and shoots everyone they encounter, isn't that griefing? It doesn't have to be targeting a single player or area ... just killing players to ruin their game is griefing as far as I can see.

[@loadmastermoe]

@@Glathgrundel does it suck if someone does that? Yeah but they are just roaming killers. They move on and do not camp one particular station or player and the game should have a punishment for them. Jail, bounty and so on. If that player camps a pad and kill over and over and the game or players are unable to stop it then that is strait up grief. For example at jump town my org had it locked as we loaded up and the left. Someone got pissed and glitched themselves under the planet to kill without being touched. That is a grief. They were hurt and wanted to stop our fun any way they can. The players could have teamed up to push us out and some do. I suck at PvP and I rather trade or fleet support, but I fly protection if need be and try to get a tad better if I can.

[@ajmeyers5661]

@@Glathgrundel - It depends on how you define griefing. My def would be "mining salt", close to wat Farrister and A1 were saying. The real issue is: what do you do about it. The in game systems are meant to be punishing, but AI are a joke and the prison is laughable. I have to get in an Aurora and literally park over the guns ar Klescher or PO and wait a bit before they finally kill me. CIG are not going to address the holes in the law system, so discussions like this are important

[@crawlie]

Thanks for hosting this discussion, man. Definitely needed to be had, and the community needed to see a good discourse on the topic. Agree with some of the other comments that it'd be great to hear from someone repping the pirate flag as well. Maybe Experia888?

[@lystic9392]

30:00 This is an honorable thought, but it also never works. People in general (including PvP'ers) won't care. So they will totally annihilate the new people. That is a given. And they will keep doing it even if there is nothing in it for them. And the only way to really combat that is with specific system security. And making it very easy for that system security to register what happened, who did it, shoot down/impound the ship, etc. So that the new person who gets shot down like that in a relatively 'safe' system at least knows that the guy who shot them is probably f'd. I think that's the only feasible way to prevent that situation from getting out of hand. It helps to cause pirate orgs to focus on other places to keep their heads above water. The level of skill involved in unprovoked PvP is going to be interesting: In an open world game, especially in the vastness of space with 360 degrees freedom, I would expect 90+% of the unprovoked PvP to not involve skill. I think we're most likely talking about someone sniping you from 2 km away who just happened to be there and there's wasn't much you could have done about it. I suppose you could constantly keep moving back and forth to dodge imaginary bullets during your 1000 hour playtime. That's not very realistic and I don't think it's very fun either. Or what if a corvette blows up your ship in one hit, from a distance that you couldn't even see it or you couldn't get away in time? Or someone placed a minefield and your ship didn't have the scanner to pick it up so you flew into it and before you know it your ship blew up. Sure you can say that person should be better and have a military scanner of some sort. But maybe the minefields are so rare that it just becomes a die roll. Maybe you could say they should fly with an escort. Does that matter if they still get blown up first? I don't think unprovoked PvP, which is where most of the problems with PvP come from, is going to be much about skill in that sense. (Think Rogues in WoW. They preyed on weaker targets, and with the element of surprise there was no skill involved. Unless the PVP was obvious. Then it became more interesting.) I don't think that's entirely avoidable either. Making it relative easy to figure out who did it, at least, is going to help with some of it. (As you can then place a bounty on them, etc.)

[@TheSilverwolf1001]

I disagree. I have an eclipse in game and when or if initiate unprovoked pvp. The target of my size 9 torps will always be alerted. As well as will always have the warning of being fired upon. It’s pretty hard to miss those visual signals. What’s lacking right now for new players are what these signals mean when being attacked. As well as defensive counter measures. There isn’t an in game tutorial about them and if they made one about starting your ships. Weapon systems, talking about your MFDs, Chaff (noise), Flares. Then 9 times out of 10 they’d be able to get away or fight back. Knowledge about your ship and your ships systems is half the battle. The one thing I do agree is keeping the system safe. Although know that it will be a high risk for the player with the crime stat it should also be high reward. Vice verse in pyro for the PvE player. Mining in pyro should offer higher reward than mining in Stanton. As well we doing NPC bounties. Same as in Stanton. The higher your crime stat the more the UEE will respond to you like bringing a javelin with great aim and with escorts or bringing a bunch of idris’s and hammerheads. This will also encourage being in a group more. Which is the primary focus of the game. Group play. New players first site should be seeing a bunch of players making a fleet to go to pyro for resources and missions. New players should see a Javelin and an idris patrolling the stations (NPC controlled). The reason why I feel like they aren’t doing this is because of the load of the servers. As well as it’s still lawless because hunting a criminal player offers maximum of 35k. Which I think is abysmal. Hunting criminal players should offer upwards of 150k -250k at CS4-5. As well as increased sentence time like back in 3.15. It would keep lawlessness down. Pad rammers should have to pay the person they rammed 100k period and automatic 15 hours sentence in klecher. I do like where CIG is going but they also need to release sub capital ships that can take a size 9 torp. They should also promote more group oriented ships. As well as increased the pay out of crewed ships by a substantial margin to make crewing ships feasible. I also believe they should make mining missions and cargo hauling missions. Deliver X amount to Area 18. Etc. It would make trading valuable. Yes people should ask for escorts. If you are new you should be asking to be a turret gunner. Join an org etc. The reason why I think This is because you’d have a better experience and it’s an option. Also being a criminal should lower your reputation in an area as well as raise it. Example if I go nuke a friendly NPC in crusader. My reputation with crusaders should drop every time I do that but my reputation with Vaughn (Criminal rep that gives missions.) should rise and if I go near a station in PO at a certain point I should be auto attacked by the station and security forces there. Which will be a feature when pyro comes out hopefully.

[@bryanofphoenix]

[Tomato Talk mode - rant engaged]: Thanks for generating another thought proving Launch Sequence Podcast on a difficult topic that is quite divisive in the community. While combat and PvP are general interests for me personally and are not my primary reasons for playing. I certainly recognize the place that PvP has in Star Citizen and absolute need for it in order for the longevity of the project as a whole. Given my biases I do have a problem with how some try to make this a binary issue when it is more than a simple label like a "Pirate" can quantify. It is a whole grey area that really only leads us into philosophical debates on human psychology and morality and the motivations behind individual actions perceived to be right or wrong from a given perspective. Those engaging in PvP are not just automatically Pirates. They are also things like mercenaries, vigilantes, security forces, private military organizations, raiders and marauders, psychopaths, thrill seekers, assassins, operatives and agents, and so much more. (Good? Bad? They're just the guys with the guns.) Each with their own sets of ethics and codes and rules of engagement and the unfortunate thing is that at times we might find ourselves among the wrong end of collateral damage when one or more of these actors are in the same space as us. It is a risk I have come to expect and accept and as stated in the pod cast the best we can do is to learn to recognize this risk and know our options for either avoiding or minimizing the impact given the state of Star Citizen at any given moment. One thing I know we must avoid is what happened to a similar title that many of us are probably familiar with which is Elite Dangerous where the 'Open' mode of gameplay was the only place where non-consensual PvP could take place seemed to become the exception to the way to play where instead many would sequester themselves off in 'solo-mode' or in a 'private' group that all are essentially the same world underneath but ultimately removed the "Dangerous" from Elite Dangerous in my opinion. Lastly bit I want to mention in my little rant here is that was also alluded to in the podcast was over time things are going to change. In particular the Costs and consequences are going to become greater and more meaningful as the reputation gained or lost will have long term implications. The loss of ships, equipment, lives will mean more downtime trying to get those items back long term even if you have reserves attrition should limit what any individual or group of individuals can do over time if I am understanding the future intent of cloud imperium correctly.

[@ravennfall6034]

What? no Elite Dangerous just catered to both play styles. if you want to PVP you go into open if you want to relax and trade you go into PG/SOLO. I used to go into open to PVP on occasion, then players started using shield hacks. you might have come across it shields that only drop to 20% then never fall below. that killed the PVP for me totally

[@Anachroschism]

I'm a casual PVPer. I don't actively seek PVP, but I will participate, as it's part of the game, and I'll not be too bothered by it. This is just the way the game is, and how many of us will need to operate in certain dangerous areas. Unfortunately, there's always folks that want zero PVP, no matter how it's done. Even when something is defined PVP only, or the game has PVP at it's core like EVE or SC. It won't matter how little, or how much PVP there is in an MMO, there will always be someone complaining that they want a PVP god mode, where they can go into dangerous areas, get the benefits of that area, even when that area is PVP orientated (JumpTown for example), and not be harmed by or inconvenienced by other players while doing so, or want PVP turned off entirely. I've used this example many times over the course of these debates - In SWG (Star Wars Galaxies), there was a city named Restuss, which was a dedicated PVP event location. There was a dedicated shuttle to the location, clear warnings once you enter the PVP zone, letting you know you would need to be flagged for PVP to enter the location, and PVP battles you could see from the landing location. There was almost no way anyone could accidentally go there, not expecting PVP. Yet, even with that, we would get people saying "Friendly", and saying they only wanted to get the items that were exclusive to that zone. These folks would complain about that zone being PVP, even though almost the entirety of the game was PVE, they still wanted to be able to enter the PVP zone without needing to PVP, to be able to collect items, loot and explore. We would get called griefers for killing these people in the PVP zone. No argument can ever be won against these types of players, as they are both entitled and ignorant of what they are suggesting, so it's just best to ignore the noise of the "carebears", and let them go play something that actually suits their preferred play style. SC is a game simulating real consequences for our actions; consequence, and PVP will be a major part of the game, as it was always stated to be. If you're dying over and over when doing something, at the hands of a PVPer, then it's these players that need to change their tactics to deal with the situation, not the game that has to change to suit those players. Being killed by another player can be inconvenient, as can being killed by an NPC, but it does not make someone a griefer, because you didn't consent to being killed. However, if there is a situation that you cannot escape from, and another player is holding you hostage by fear of death, then that is actually griefing (Port Olisar pad ramming for example), then that is a game mechanic problem, similar to spawn camping in a game like Battlefield, and why spawn points are often protected areas, and one of the reasons why SC is shifting away from landing pads, to hangars.

[@fwdcnorac8574]

People that want solo only gameplay should play single player games. All the games you listed are close to my heart for the hardcore PvP. Tarkov isn't suffering, it's thriving. Weak souls get weeded out regularly. If people want a solo experience wait for Starfield. Don't pee in my swimming pool. Star Citizen is a multiplayer game and removing PvP will kill the game.

[@MrBuzzwords]

That was a very interesting discussion. In Star Citizen, PVP and PVE should be possible on an even footing.The problem seems to me to be that both groups currently have to play in a single system and cannot avoid each other. Let's say we had two systems with Stanton and Pyro.Let's further assume that the starting system Stanton would be a high security and Pyro would be a low security system. Finally, let's assume that the UEE security in Stanton would really work - which is currently not the case. Would this solve the problem? The PVP players could show what skills they have in Pyro and the PVE players would have their peace in Stanton? Of course not. Why not? For one thing, there is piracy. Avenger One rightly said that the pirates are where the players are. In my scenario, that would still be Stanton. From my point of view, that's perfectly okay, because piracy is an important game mechanic. However, Avenger One also revealed something with his statement that he probably didn't mean to say. Supposedly many PVP players are just looking for a good fight and currently feel "forced" to look for these fights in Stanton. As long as there is only Stanton, I will let this argument stand. As soon as Pyro is finished, this argument only applies to pirates and players who want to earn money through PVP. The argument no longer applies to players who are "only" looking for a sporting challenge to improve their skills. These players should find enough other PVP players in Pyro to achieve this goal. Unless the number of real PVP players is too small.What Avernger One said leads to the conclusion that many PVP players are not really looking for a sporting challenge - which they would find in Pyro - but for randomly attacking rookies to feel great. If that were not the case, the problem with a split between Stanton and Pyro might not be completely solved, but at least it wouldn't be as big as before. The PVE players would be relatively safe in Pyro and the PVP players could compete in Pyro to show how great their skills really are.

[@cyrusol]

What A One didn't mention about Jita in EVE Online is that even though there are the most kills by far you are still, statistically speaking, extremely safe. Only the extreme rich, fat traders make for good targets - due to the system where Concord (AI police) intervenes immediately when a pirate attacks. As a pirate you have to have multiple accounts (or friends) where at least one account (or player) doesn't partake in the fight (so Concord won't shoot at him) but waits nearby to loot any wrecks. And then the loot has to make up for the loss of any ships that did partake in combat (and were subsequently shredded to pieces by Concorde). That dynamic alone means that only somewhere between 1 in a 100 to 1 in a 1000 make for viable targets. Everyone else is already safe and can (and most do) go afk for long hauling trips through high security space. The only reason why Jita still sees the most kills is due the sheer number of players constantly leaving and entering the system or the station Jita IV (4th planet) - 4 (4th moon). You always see 100+ players approaching the station to dock / warp away to the whatever jump gate (equivalent to Star Citizen's jump point) they need to go. Beyond that not all attacks are successful, sometimes the pirates (in EVE that specific category of pirates is called suicide gankers) don't manage to destroy their target before Concord destroys them. In which case they go absolutely empty-handed. Yes, there are some players that are happy to inflict losses on someone else even if their loss is greater but that happens maybe once in a full moon because typically you simply can't afford to do that for a long time. Anyways, right now SC doesn't have consequences in place nearly as dire and that IS the root of the problem. Now, initially so didn't EVE. Farrister said people didn't wait for newbies to undock and immediately destroy their starter ship. But initially (say back in 2003) that's exactly what happened in EVE and that was the whole motivation behind the Concord system. (Although losing a starter ship wasn't nearly as bad as it sounds in EVE, players would just respawn in a brand-new starter ship, they weren't worth anything.)

[@fwdcnorac8574]

You can put all the security you want in Stanton. I'm still engaging players if I see them. If I gotta bail to Pyro for a little while then so be it. But I'm gonna keep going after soft targets. I'm still gonna extort lazy truckers.

[@MrBuzzwords]

@@fwdcnorac8574 Of course you do. Everyone needs something to be proud of. Shooting soft targets is certainly one of them ... ;-)

[@chancedreamscape3526]

This is an interesting Viddy. It hit well on several points. Really Griefing is a combination of Malicious intent and Repeated Harassment of a certain target or targets, intended to humiliate and demoralize them over and over and over. Until CIG clearly defines what Griefing is within its terms of service AND implements methods to report griefing to CIG and for them to determine what intervention is needed, if any, SC will remain lawless in this arena. We will all be left to determine what to do and not to do, whether or not to react, and how to assess each situation in accordance with our own Moral Compass. I do think there should be a way for people who do not want to pursue PVP to opt out of it within the Verse. There should also be a way to completely block others to prevent them from interacting with a person who does not want to interact with another player. That would go a long way toward mitigating this issue without CIG intervention.

[@JaxsonGalaxy]

I think forrester's ideas are idealized in a way that had illustrates a lack of experience with MMOs, and that his ideas ultimately will lead to a shorter lifespan and a less healthy game. I think Avenger one sees that and and is doing his best to educate and illustrate his experience, and throughout this short podcast has actually done a very good job of getting Forester on the same page. It's important to remember that Chris Roberts other games, and even games like Elite dangerous have a single player option and the many of the people attracted to Star Citizen we'll have their first MMO experience with Star Citizen. I think cig made a mistake in the original Kickstarter by advertising it as a single player game. That single-player experience has turned into Squadron 42, and likely won't be the single player space trucker game that many were hoping for.

[@chalky042]

Nice civil and constructive discussion, important subject for the games development for sure, great job guys! 🤙

[@stewartmacy4859]

Great panel and discussion. Personally, getting insight into the criminal mind is always fascinating. A learned behavior take practice and has its own reward loop we need not want but need to know. The verse is far more dangerous than it appears.

[@erichannon]

This was a good discussion, its good for both sides to hear the others’ point of view and hopefully it will foster a better connection within the lawless and lawful side of the community.

[@shanebellinger8922]

I started seeing some major issues when they launched JT event with a free fly, in my opinion, one of the worst choices they could make. If there is nothing to gain from it for an attacker, it should be considered griefing. Maybe when more systems are in place there will be a more defined role for criminals, therefore giving a clear example of what is fair and not. I do believe they need to make some action quick and implement a more in depth monitoring and support system, the behavior is getting pretty bad and I do see it potentially effecting the amount of active players and the experience of new ones. Blowing up a Prospector for no reason outside of a station for me, is griefing. It has no defense. The pirate has nothing to gain. It wastes time and energy. There should be systems in place to prevent players from lurking around a station, Air Traffic Control would be screaming at them if they sat there for more than a couple minutes just lurking. Security would be called to move their ship. Maybe when CIG sees the effects firsthand of the toxic behavior that takes place they will implement something. Let's just hope it doesn't get too bad before then.

[@SternLX]

Jump Town and Nine Tails were advertised as PvP events. Anyone that got butt sore for being PvP'd in those events missed the point of those events. Agree though that if an attacker has nothing to gain(like outside PvP events) then it's just being an asshole and how attackers in those situations earn the title "Griefer".

[@yhossarian]

I have a couple of ideas for things cig could do for sign posting: 1). Like in ED give pilots a rating that can be discovered through a scan. Unless you're trying to prey on the unskilled, this would help pvp'ers find targets that would be a challenge. 2). It was touched upon during the discussion and I think maybe Farrister suggested it, have an actual starting zone that is extremely high security where players can learn to fly. Maybe in this zone new players follow a variety of mission lines introducing them to cargo hauling, mining, bunker missions and bounty hunting before they are released to the greater universe. Needed ships for each mission type could be provided for that mission only by the mission givers. This would give new players exposure to a wide variety of ships and their gameplay loops. It's just a thought.

[@spaceaxi3392]

Expanding PVP instead of contracting it would work better imo. If someone is attacking you on a mission, thats just a risk and part of the game. If you are attacked near a spaceport, then that player should have their location public on the map for a few hours. This will be good for warning players approaching or will be an invitation for fighters.

[@korecomputers]

Already has that feature. If a player attacks someone at a station they get a crime stat making them trackable by everyone in the game.

[@jackgordon6332]

PvP brings SO many different possibilities to a sandbox style game like Star Citizen. For example, keep in mind that there will definitely be Pirate orgs fighting with other Pirate orgs ( turf wars) and "Law abiding" Orgs hunting/ setting traps for pirates 24/7. I would plan on there being many times you are flying cargo right past pirates because they are already engaged in combat. It will also strongly influence the game economy via dangerous shipping routes causing supply and demand issues. The need for more, many different types of game play will be essential as a result of PvP such as: Medical game play, weapons development, ship upgrades, hired escorts ( and also ship escorts..giggity) combat training for ground fps, pilot training for dog fighting and elude/ evade tactics. Hell, I would bet pilots could make a good amount of credits training other pilots in game. Endless....possibilities

[@OriginalXeno]

Good discussion, some of my favourite content creators in one podcast. I think for me the difference is communication, a pirate or PvPer looking for a challenge would confront and open a dialogue, whether that's a "give me all your stuff and you can walk away" or "want a fight?". A griefer is just going to slam their ship into you or launch a missile barrage at you without warning. That being said if you have a Crime Stat then the unexpected attack is fair game. Interested to see how that changes in the future when CS is replaced with rep etc

[@OriginalXeno]

@@kenp1677 Agree with pretty much all your points. PvP is part of the game and should be accepted/expected. As mentioned in the vid there is differentiation in the intentions but that is impossible to know unless outwardly communicated; which can take the form of verbal/text based comms or even location, if you are at JT then intent is implied. Also agree that stealth and sneak attacks are potentially fair game but how do you know if it's griefing or PvP, you can't really so it's always going to be subject and shades of grey. Not sure I like the term griefing in this instance, I'd reserve that for the bullying/purposeful ruining of someone's game. It's that some people want to come in game after a crappy and chill out mining or sight seeing. Then someone comes along and blows them up for no perceived reason, that's going to be seen as "griefing", rightly or wrongly. We could easily debate it ad infinitum because there is so much circumstance and emotion attached to it. Not saying having to warn someone needs to be a rule, far from, it but if you want to make the distinction clearer then communication is key, and that doesn't have to come from the player, it could be the game signposting neutral/friend/foe better, having high/lo sec areas etc. As well as consequences (mention in vid too). I mean real life is exactly the same, just we know that you go down a dark alley at night then you might be running a risk. But equally someone could attack me on my doorstep for no reason, and I'd be justifiable p**sed off.

[@1_Prime]

What this discussion gets into is a metaphor for the real life justice system. It has taken hundreds or thousands of years for us to develop and codify laws, regulations, and societal norms that govern human social behavior towards each other. Intent, the guilty mind (mens rea), etc. are all measured by judges, argued by lawyers, and have a varying set of consequences assigned. It is great to have these debates, but in reality most of this has already been worked out in real life. The hope would be that game developers of MMO's take the hard earned lessons learned IRL and apply it to the game mechanics... while still allowing for game loops, and an entertaining play system for everyone (even the pirates and PVP'ers).

[@Bartgast]

Very nice to see you guys in this discussion. Only 2 minutes in the video but already like it! Edit: This conversation is the core of what Star Citizen is. Looking forward to the next

[@SpaceTomatoToo]

It was great fun!

[@edubbdizzle8096]

This video just made me HAPPY, i'm so glad there wasnt any hatred held towards either of these "amazing" creators, and they were able to have this conversation! what made this video even better was Space Tomato hosting it was great as well!

[@Pappy_1775]

What a lot of people don't look at is MMOs don't do well when there is full loot PvP. Now I am not talking about games with PVP, I am talking about MMOs. Games like Fortnite, the largest money-making game to date, are proof the PvP "GAMES" do well but they are not MMOs. For the most part, people do not play MMOs if they have PvP that is in the entire game. Those MMOs that do have full PvP just don't have very large populations. In fact, they actually have really small populations, even our beloved EVE has an extremely small population compared to other MMOs. In games that have separated PvP (level caps or Arenas), the overall population of PvP'ers is tiny compared to the rest of the game's population. If you don't believe me take a look at MMO populations and compare full PvP MMOs to Non-PvP MMOs (including partial and separated PvP). Even "New World" which was going to be a full PvP game had to cut back on the PvP and curtail it to consensual PvP. There is a KZbinr out there named Josh Strife Hayes that has put out videos on why "Full Loot PvP MMOs" fail. Players, especially casual players, do not want to spend their time trying to make money in an MMO, only to have it time after time being taken away. There is no progress in the game. My biggest fear is that SC may start appealing to immature players who want nothing more than to ring up the highest crime stat they can (think Red Dead Online). We have already seen it with pad rammers and pirates outside of PO doing nothing but killing anyone they find and this is all happening now WITHOUT any resources to steal in the game. Do we really want another "Rust" with its roving bands of "Lord of the Flies" pre-teens running around? Right now we are blessed with the fact that "kids" don't play SC. I think it is because it is too high of a learning curve and boring for them (and also the reason "adults" love it). Mark my words, if we allow unrestricted PvP to rule SC, we will see the casual adults stop playing and the rise of the immature players. Just saying "get good" is not what the casual player wants to hear.

[@zachm638]

I think part of the problem with the current PvP system is that the game effectively has no memory once you've wiped your crimestat or served your sentence. If you murder someone in Crusader monitored space, you should suffer a reputation hit, and if you do it enough, they should send security forces after you regardless of your current crimestat. We're in this weird place right now where I can be a murderous prick one day and then be a carebear the next, and the game is totally cool with that.

[@SternLX]

That's temporary until the full implementation of the Reputation system is in place. CIG has already laid out how gaining CS will permanently affect your Rep with Security and System services. A player could create a situation were they are KOS if they commit enough crimes whether they have a CS or not based solely on their Rep. Either way, yes, there needs to be far stiffer long term penalties for unwarranted attacks in monitored systems.

[@404-Err0r]

Fantastic video, absolutely love how you all talk about this because it will be a concern... So I think it doesn't have to be too complex, here is what I would do if I had a say: 1. Combine Arena and the PU to make it seemless... how? A new player starts in a home city, in that city, add in a place called "Space combat training simulator" and have a quest for a new person to go in and participate as a quest (Option). Veterans and newbies alike should have an option in MobiGlass to enable PVP training simulation and can queue up... Once a match is found, both new and vets can duke it out in a safe environment where Newbies can test out their skills and PVP players can get the enjoyment... at the end of the day, no one looses, the PVP players get their fill of "GET GUD", and new players can see where they stand should they venture out into dangerous space. The simulator will allow players to chose their ship before a match begins. But lets face it like a champ guys... Players who force nonconsensual PVPs are 99.99% griefers/gankers. They get their joy in seeing others suffer and feel good about themselves. So please don't try to twist and turn the argument, there's absolutely no good reason to enforce PVP on players who don't go seeking, its eBullying if its such a word. That being said... 2. In High-security space, the consequence for committing any type of PVP should be detrimental, here is how I would set the penalty: A) UEE/Police will arrive on scene immediately and EMP the offenders, the offenders will then be taken to Jail where they can choose to pay 10 million UEC for a 120 minute grace period (Like Bail) where they can leave the Jail and quickly make their way to Low security systems where they can hide/continue to play without further restrictions (To not impede on anyone's gameplay), during the bail period, the offender is not allowed to goto any high security ASOP terminal to take out anyships as they are on a bail, the offender will also have no access to personal inventory as they are locked (Highsec space), so basically you have your criminal clothes and that's it until you make your way to lawless space. UEE provides the simplest ship for transportation... If the offender do not pay or cannot pay, then they must spend time in Jail doing missions that will slowly reduce the cost of to bail, this can take from a few hours to a few days depending on the offense. No work around with hacking the system, punishment is punishment. Once inside low or lawless space, a 24 hour no highsec entrance countdown begins, this cannot be lowered, if you enter in highsec, the UEE will hunt you down and you end up in step 2 all over again. 3. Offenders will also have their reputation as a criminals known in game, this should play an impact in highsec quest givers. No one wants to hire a murderer right? Unless its a job for murderers. 4. Once the 24 hour countdown has finished, the offender can once again return to Highsec space, but they must visit UEE central/Police station to reclaim their "Citizenship" so that their ships can legally fly in highsec again. Else if caught without this from random station scan, they get their ships impounded and must pay a fee to release. If UEE are leaders of people, they need to make sure their citizens feel safe. Good leaders make those who follow them feel safe, so having a hefty penalty for those who breaks the rule that UEE placed should be punished accordingly. There should be no room for PVPing in Highsec space, just like you can't walk out and murder/blowup a car in real life without consequences. Hell, you'd get sued if you accidentally hit someone in the face and they press charges... thats why people feel "safe" in modern society. This needs some reflection here in the game... Want to PVP just because you want to show off skills? Sure... go queue up in the combat simulator mentioned above... or take your skills to the real test in lawless space where you can loot the kill, UEE won't give a fook what you do down there... But do it in their backyard, prepare to face the consequence. You don't force non-consensual PVP just like you don't force non-consensual s*x... if you do, you're breaking the law and the penalty should be felt hard. You force PVP in highsec, you're a ganker/griefer and you're after my sh*t or tears.... Don't kid yourself, cause why else would you do it??

[@ajmeyers5661]

You've got some good ideas here, but I think you're too absolutist on the "no PvP in High-Sec", imo. Also the tone you (seem) to have adopted towards PvPers isn't helpful--again imo. There has to be room for criminal activity in every system, but definitely the risks should be MUCH higher in High-Sec. It should be punishing, but not the insta sort of scenario you gave above. I feel like your stance, and your tendency to call people "gankers", might cause some to overlook the genuinely good ideas here

[@David-fy7pn]

You did a great job at moderating this. It felt so balanced, to the point I don't even know in what foot I stand anymore lol

[@vfixar1706]

round 20min a solution to the afk: if you build a base you should be able to respawn in base (if you build like a medbay) and you should be save in the base. If going afk you should do this in base and if you do it outside than it's on you. fun base after thought. (Player base building progression at max base) Other players should be able to destroyed a base but shields are like size 11 (upgraded max) and hull is upgradeble too, you should be able to build turrets on base (auto fire ones like the bunkers) and be able to mfd override 1 turret per person, turrets should also be upgradeble in size to a max size 4 max 4t turrets depending on the size of the base... be able to uprgade base to one with landing pad, vehicle spawn point, refinery, weapon/armor racks,medbed,work shop (crafting), shooting range, stash bunker, repairing ..........kinda like rust I could go on but the point is basis could be player/org homes, tactical deploy spots,...IMO :D

[@actualdan8455]

Avenger 1’s videos on dogfighting are the most informative I’ve seen on this game.

[@dancingkirby3591]

Fantastic video! I am a new player, only played for about 2 weeks now, and I would like to add my 2 cents in as someone who loves cargo running. I absolutely love the idea of pirates. I went from 4k to 70k by running cargo and during this time I ran into a stolen cutty black. My heart was racing. I agree that there should be a relationship between the pve and pvp. I want to hire people to help protect me while cargo running. I want to see the sheepdog take care of the wolf while I try to make it out alive.

[@kevinm3751]

The reason I quit playing Elite Dangerous is because every time I tried to play I could rarely even get out of the space station without some prick or pricks killing me and if I did manage to get away before I could get anywhere someone would pull me out of my jump (or whatever they called it) or be laying in wait when I came out and would kill me. There simply is no fun in that and I quit because of these assholes who had nothing better to do then be worthless pricks getting their kicks out of it. I am worried that SC is going to wind up being the same way and I hope they do everything they can to curb this childish behavior, otherwise this long wait and huge amount of money I have sunk into this game will be all for nothing! Still even as it is I am not seeing anything near the BS that was going on in ED! So there is a lot of promiss!

[@porkorosso7885]

Great chat, thanks all three of you for doing this. I’m a dabbler. Ie because none of the mechanics are fully baked out yet, I have still to decide what career/s I will focus on in SC. I therefore keep up to date will all aspects, including PvP but don’t take anything too seriously. As soon as the fun stops, I stop. I wonder whether the real griefers are just bored players. So one again it’s CRs fault. Lol.

[@piedpiper1172]

On Jita / high sec equivalence: The big reason Jita is a pvp hub is because pirates can reship in Jita. This means suicide ganking has no time penalty and can be spammed. If the hostile player could not reship in or anywhere near Jita, the kill rate would fall off a cliff. SC’s reputation system could fill that role. Murder hobo someone over a city? Cool. Have fun. But now your rep with the city bars you from landing or reshipping there.

[@FrozenKnight21]

I personally like the idea of the shared PvP and PvE space. And i think so far SC is going the right direction. However i think consequences need to be highlighted a bit better. I personally like the idea of implementing 2 technologies in the game. 1) Emergency beacon, the "quality" of the beacon will depend on the price you pay for it. When triggered it will activate a mission/beacon for other players to rescue you. But if you pay for a higher "quality" beacon it will have an NPC ship warp in to defend you. Guaranteeing, you some level of defense even for inexperienced players. (note: I would expect this to be block-able by using something like a mantis.) 2) Ripcord, this could be something like a short range teleport. It would have a "mass" limit, so you can't use it with full cargo, and it wont be available for all ships. (but should be on all starters) This would allow a player to "warp" say something like 10k away giving them a greater chance to escape. While I do understand the potential abuse of something like this, I don't think they would hugely negatively affect the game.

[@applecrow8]

I really miss the training testbed Star Citizen had briefly way back in the day. There is SO much to learn that I think a lot of players learn what they need and then kind of stop thinking that a specific widget on the HUD was just for show.

[@vonrosphe3098]

Really enjoyed the video. Thanks Keenan, Avenger_One and Farrister.

[@starlette443]

Thanks eveyone, and special thanks to Farrister for representing the kind of gaming that I personally enjoy

[@starlette443]

I liked avengers observation of enjoying flying the ship to the very best of his ability is enjoyment in itself.

[@Farrister]

:)

[@shanebellinger8922]

I hope one day Farrister gets as good or better than Avenger One and blasts his ship out of the sky some day on camera. He's a cool dude... But man his attitude towards PvP is really not the greatest. He kinda reminds me of someone who got made fun of a lot as a kid so now he just trolls people online instead.

[@MonteKristof]

@@shanebellinger8922 I admired Avenger as a pilot. But this is actually the first time I heard his take on SC and I must say, I loathe that he believes (or want) SC to be just a giant fighting Arena and everything else is just secondary. I hate even more that he thinks the only way to enjoy SC is to "Git Gud". It shows that he never understood the idea behind star citizen. He should stick to SW : Squadron.

[@shanebellinger8922]

@@MonteKristof Honestly, I kind of tuned out half the stuff he was saying, because he contradicts himself just to save face at least a couple times. I think CIG needs real past criminals, to explain to them the mindset of a criminal. If there is NOTHING for me to gain from it, and all risk, why am I gonna shoot a ship just to tell them to get gud? Literally pointless violence. Criminals use calculated violence to achieve specific goals, not terrorize as a solo player. I feel that's the problem, I've been on the run from the police for three years of my life. You would be getting rid of your MobiGlass so people can't track you. You would be using discreet ships, and you would only stay in highly populated areas you could blend in or the outskirts making it hard for people to find you. Let me tell you, I've seen it with Sea of Thieves and the ship handling in that with the learning curve, as soon as people start to get as good as him, they will hunt him personally and camp him on stream until he stops. I can't wait for that day a bunch of players in an Auroras shoot him down on stream over and over and just tell him "got gud bro" the salt would be real. I bet he'd think about filing reports to CIG

[@TheDereo]

I so enjoyed civilized discussion between the two people who disagrees, but are also looking for common ground

[@niklasdahlgren7641]

People also have to remember, be it piracy, griefing or simply PVP in general - Running away from a fight, is winning too. If someone attacks me and is out to kill me, then there are two goals in that fight. - My job is to survive - My enemy's job is to kill me If i get away i WIN that encounter, no matter how much the attacker thinks i am a coward or something else. HOW i get out of that fight is up to me, be it combat or running or simply ramming that asshole attacking me. The best way to grief a griefer, is to make his job as hard as possible.

[@Epsyk]

That’s what ships like the MSR are made for. Fleeing. It could be armed to the teeth but instead it’s just fast and nimble to avoid fights. Some people really don’t get this in their head.

[@niklasdahlgren7641]

@@Epsyk Yup, especially aggressors seem to have a hard time understanding that their intended victim runs away is an option and a lot of them scream out "coward" and other words because the completely outclassed ship they want to blow up is running.

[@vonrosphe3098]

You're right. And thats why you have to choose the right ship for you. In a raft you could transport enough cargo. But you can't fight and it's slow so running away is difficult. But if you engage the same attacker in a 400i you will have a easy time to run away. Downside is that you have less cargo.

[@mabutoo]

Then there should be purchasable equipment to counter snares and other interdiction tools. A fighter size ship that can pull a C2 out of quantum should have a massive energy signature. for example.

[@niklasdahlgren7641]

@@mabutoo Perhaps we will get that. The question is HOW it should be countered. - Shoot down the interdictor - Utilize an EMP on the interdictor - Fire an Ewar missile on interdictor - Utilizing electronic warfare hacking on interdictor I doubt we will get something like "press button to disable enemy interdictor".

[@parkerxgps8101]

Pyro will provide a wonderful opportunity for cig. They can and probably should help bold the lines. As they seem to be doing via iteration and development. Interesting consistency and cadence to be sure.

[@marinesusmc]

The thing that you guys talked about is how is griefing determined on what security level you're in. If you are just attacking people just to attack them, then that is griefing no matter what security level you in. That's what arena commander is for. If you are just killing people to kill people, then you should be considered a murder and should be hunted down. There is a huge difference between piracy and griefing. If you're going for a monetary/resource gain, then that would be piracy.

[@LuxTenebrae]

Just killing Miner cause gtfo loser...Griefing... Give Miner a choice to pay up or die....PvP/Pirating. Miner intrudes on your orgs rocks you are mining? 1 warning then shoot...PvP. And you pretty much already nailed one of the mechanics to fight it too. Bounty hunters. I do not see any shortage in SC's population in Bounty Hunters.

[@Glathgrundel]

Freighters should have the option of self-destruction INCLUDING their full cargo ... it gives them some leverage in negotiating a ransom and the possibility of a 'no win scenario' for the pirate, which is what the freighter captain has. If I could afford it, I would destroy my cargo ship before I pay a ransom ... I should have that option.

[@isaiahheffernan5726]

Think avenger one put it perfect, we need the systems to allow the symbiosis of pvp to protect pve. So many missing systems are really hurting the game and improved npc and maybe a better law and punishment system to make being bad have bad consequence that really hurt but they also have to be worth while money wise for them to risk it

[@DevilbyMoonlight]

piracy is one thing.. but when someone uses an exploit like dropping a body on your ship while its docked which causes the station to destroy you when you climb into it and puts you in jail with a CS2 - something need to be done

[@chrisblair85]

Yes that is a black and white clear griefing activity and I'm pretty sure almost 100% of players would agree that is griefing

[@xxxjakenbakexxx]

That’s hilarious lmao

[@aennaenn7468]

While hilarious, and I wanna see it be done, yes that's very much clear griefing and should be punished.

[@galoreorc01]

I think a big point that gets glossed over is consequences for losing a space battle, currently ships simply blow up when the health bar hits zero, hopefully the disabling of ships will lead to more dynamic experiences without the total annihilation involved in the status quo. Where riddling someones ship full of holes leaves them stranded in space instead of respawning at a hospital. Instead of starting from square one after putting hours of effort into whatever industrial op you were partaking you now have a new problem to solve, how can I salvage what I have left? Do I call for help is the pirate still lurking around waiting for my help to arrive? etc so many dynamic experiences to be had with such a system in place, really lets the imagination run wild

[@bobbydellaserra441]

Thank you space Tomato for making this conversation happen. Thank you avenger one and thank you farrister for having the conversation. Two different perspectives from two different player types. But in the end we're all star citizens and we can can have adult discussion on our different opinions. You three are prime examples of why people say star citizen has one of best communities in gaming.

[@Oliver-eo2xz]

Anger ones tone changed quite a bit when he is directly facing the person. He appeared completely different in his react video... probably the curse of the internet...

[@SaintNyx]

He made another video clarifying that he should have handled things differently, and that he misunderstood Farrister’s intent.

[@CAWINC]

Very nice discussion. Bringing a bit of civility back into the debate. 10/10

[@tticd]

I had a post about this on Spectrum....man, years ago. Got LOADS of heat for it, but my take was this. There are basically four types of...let's call them "violent, PVP interactions." 1) Piracy. Like Avenger_One says, piracy is just taking someone else's stuff by force...or the THREAT of force. "Give me your stuff or I'll blow you up." There doesn't necessarily ever even have to BE combat if the target caves, pays up, dumps their cargo. In fact, it's beneficial to the pirate to NOT kill someone because then they have an "honorable pirate" rep - in other words, if you pay up/dump your cargo, this person won't just kill you anyways. As a trader/hauler myself, I'm far less likely to fight back if I know all I'm going to lose is a little UEC on this particular run. This is legitimate gameplay and a gameloop CR has said WILL be in the game. Bring an escort. 2) Marauding. Like piracy, this is taking someone else's stuff by force. However, it's different from piracy in the sense that the marauder is going to eliminate any potential threat to themselves: they're going to board the ship, kill the crew, dump the (looted) bodies into space. No witnesses, etc. This means, rep-wise, they're going to be treated far more like the Reavers in Firefly - people will ALWAYS try to fight them or run, or even self-destruct, because the alternative is death. This is also a valid gameloop as the marauders are taking in-game stuff for in-game uses. 3) Griefing. Griefing is just using the game as a tool to annoy a PLAYER. Note, not giving a crap about the game itself, it's just a way to annoy another irl person. Pad ramming, repeatedly blowing someone up as they spawn, chat threats, etc. Attacking the player, the actual person, for no in-game purpose whatsoever (ie. boxing them into a corner and using the physics engine to keep that player from leaving and then just going off to do something IRL and trapping that player in place for hours). For the other criminal gameloops, bounty-hunting will be the big balance - eventually a hunter will come for you that you can't beat and you'll go to prison (likely for a much longer stay than currently, although there will hopefully be more to do in prison and it'll be its own gameloop by then). A griefer won't care - they'll either switch to an alt account or log in a couple days to a week later and repeat. 4) Assassin. So I'm putting this one after griefing because, if it's done right, to the target it may FEEL like griefing, and if the assassin does their job, the target's never going to know why they were targeted or by whom. For example, as a trader, if I were to hire an assassin to "drive off this competitor by any means necessary," to the target, it's certainly going to appear like this dude is just repeatedly attacking them and singling them out. And that's true, but I, in-game, hired them to do so for an in-game purpose. Not griefing. Gunslinger, which is what A_1 briefly brings up...that's a little more difficult to define. The guy that rolls into town looking for a fight to test their skills. For that, I'd say have a little bit of a code of ethics. If Avenger_One were to challenge me to a one-on-one, I'd probably say "Well, how much do I have to pay you to NOT do that?" Or just say "You win." And then the gunslinger takes that as a win. They WILL find people who want to fight them, but if the goal is to test your meddle against other players in a fight, and you're just out there clubbing seals (blowing up a Hull A in an Arrow - a fight where the other player never had a chance), that's leaning hard into the griefing territory (unless the Hull A pilot starts it...or doesn't immediately back down). Like a samurai rolling into town and then cutting down a bunch of farmers, it's not a "git gud n00b" moment - that dude's an asshole. But again, there are assholes in real life. And unfortunately mass murderers who do so without a lot of reason. The in-game law and rep system should deal with that. I wish there was a way you could forego a crimestat if the other person agrees to the challenge, though. Even the motorcycles in this game have guns: this is more Mad Max than Star Trek. Hire escorts and people to fight for you. That's what I'm going to do. And that's a place CIG could do better, even now: make a beacon system that's more obvious so that you can hire those escorts. I would assume, once quanta is in, a lot of people will be hiring NPC escorts. I probably will be: they don't need to be A_1 level pilots - they just need to buy me enough time to get away.

[@ronkrueger-capt_koron6112]

Great show ST. I liked hearing the views of your guests. To give you a little background, I'm a member of the Org that Farrister is part of, and I've flown with him a few times. If you read some of the comments on his video about PVP and Griefing, you will see my post where I mentioned that I'm not one for PVP, but it's my opinion that it is part of the game and it happens. Just because I say that I'm not fond of it, doesn't mean I can't or won't do it, as I can hold my own with it. I agree with Avenger_One that it happens, and I kind of figured out that he likes it. I'm not faulting him for it. They both had an opinion about griefing, and it stands to reason that griefers are not wanted. I've witnessed a griefer that especially loved to stream snipe a content creator that I've moderated for and flown with on multiple times. This guy used to go online every time the streamer did, and deliberately look for him and kill him. He would log out to avoid being taken out by his support ships. When the streamer would switch servers, the griefer would log back in, find him and do it again and again. It got to the point that the streamer stopped playing SC and played a different game because he couldn't get rid of this guy. That's the type of thing that I oppose in the game. The guy had no consequences for his actions. Security couldn't do anything, and even the support had their hands tied with him. He was reported to CIG, and they wouldn't do anything. Fortunately, enough time went by with the streamer in other games that the guy stopped since he didn't have the streamer to mess with any more. Thank you for your show. Take care, fly safe, and I'll see you in the verse.

[@Whoadayson]

WOW... There seems to be a whole lot of typing, without the reading (or watching), which is essential to a reply... Good podcast. Thx for all 3 of you guys gwtting together to do it!

[@PhYz1098]

33:55 Farrister hitting on-point there ...wonder how many complaints of griefing (and hence altered or stretched interpretations of the term itself) are solely based on the interruption of someone's "hourly rate" .. ?? personally i'd like everyone who logs into a sci fi / space sim type game to "role-play it out"- meaning play a role in a Respectful sense of the game's environment ....although this perhaps might take a certain maturity. OFC its simply my own opinion. ... i like PVP in space within reason:- Am i carrying valuable cargo ?- am i in disputed territory or breaking into unlawful or remote regions to mine super-rares? (expect piracy!) or are we at war / prelude to war situ vs x faction ? ...or etc ? JT? NT? .... Have i gone AFK in a dangerous region? .... OK yes i did - it was unavoidable! The missus came in with a moan up ... ... Got back and someone shot me **sigh** Aw cr4p nm .... i don't like it when its seemingly mindless in a non-sensical place e.g. theorertical situation:~ small ship, light armament returning to port, unannouncedly one shotted on approach by a capital class (OK -exaggerating!) for no apparent reason (especially if i just spent my allotted 4 hrs game time lets say gathering data and have to get it back to port e.g.) ... However even in this theoretical case - whilst i would like strong and immediate repurcussions (REWENGY!!) - High Sec areas with high level response threat would hopefully solve and provide this as, to mind and lore, i should feel safe and relaxed in high sec, whilst in low sec particularly it'd be up to me to maintain at least some degree of awareness.

[@aeoteroa818]

You are part of the problem "personally I'd like everyone who logs in.." fuck what you'd like other players to do.

[@generalrendar7290]

I like Avenger One's suggestion of PvP events where players can play as the Vanduul or Banu villains for a week at a time. Slavers are operating in the system! We are calling all pilots to arms! Or if your reputation is in the gutter you may throw your lot in with the slavers. Or have a Vanduul raid where players may fight until the UEE shows up or the Vanduul cap ship is destroyed. In the Xeno threat event there were some players trying to aid the Xenothreat forces just to get some PvP. Not only would this be more fun for the players, but it would certainly be _less_ work for the Devs in coming up with gameplay loops. Say a Vanduul raid takes out a station. That can trigger a evacuation event where players can search for and evacuate survivors. Then they can have a grant from the UEE to rebuild the station. This allows the players to drive story and events in the world while still being guided by the devs.

[@tlove21]

A few examples, during JT, Orgs would come and claim JT, other Orgs would come and reclaim it. Then there was this group who dropped A2 bombs and left, waited a while then dropped another bomb, then waited a while and dropped another bomb as their friend on a hill told them ships were there. Never landing, never grabbing a drug box. What do you think of the 2 scenarios? When the only defense at JT was a small gatling gun, why not missile launcher turrets as well. Nine Tail event, I got in my ship to go meet those players who joined Nine Tails. I only engaged one, and never saw another, for they complained about going to prison. PVPers, don't mind going to prison or they lockdown arrays to stay out, they also play the events. There are those who simply kill for fun, and when they land in jail log out. What do you think about this scenario? Player vs Player does not imply killing, it could be a race, it could be conflict, it could be anything related to two or more players in a competitive environment. CIG has designed the sandbox to be a killing environment. They introduced racing awhile back, but then they said it is death racing, now removed to be refined for better killing mechanics. What do you think about this? When your choice is taken away it feels like griefing, but that is how the bounty feature works currently. So many people say they were griefed when they had a crime stat. This happens a lot with new players. I accidentally fired my EMP on a landing pad, immediately got 2 crime stats, station attacked me so I ran. Player blew me up, the system simply said I was worth some money. It did not say, fired and EMP at the station. Sentinel shows no EMP effects, so I simply forgot. What do you think about this? I got 1hr 30 mins in prison, reduced for mining labour to 35 mins. In my opinion, the word griefing is often times used in situations more than the few occasions of crazy people, relative to the experiences of the game mechanics being in Alpha, CIG needs to finish the gameplay loops. I liked the discussion, but until the loops are fleshed out, PVP and griefing will be hard to separate. High Sec areas with constant elite security AIs and more are needed. Pyro will be the first new system released, and guess what, it is an outlaw system. More killing? Do you think this is a coincidence? CIG collects data on death until they could tell you stairs kill more players than people. LOL. This is a melting pot, and there are people who love the thought of making your day miserable in it. Until CIG fixes their gameplay loops, this conversation will never end.

[@anno-fw7xn]

i think the JT bombing is more than fine, rember the law side has the job to destroy or collect the box and prevent the drugs to geting into the market? how is destyoing it not a soultion.

[@tlove21]

@@anno-fw7xn Good point, but all my examples are complaints I have seen. I am just showing that sometimes what people call griefing, is not necessarily the perspective of the player they are accusing. CIG put the A2 in-game, knowing full well JT event was coming. So my whole post is to show that these half-baked mechanics are what causes griefing in many cases.

[@forcommenting1017]

At the end of the day, there will always be players who attack when you aren't ready, or attack just to annoy you. To avoid that game loop you need to make a sacrifice, whether that will be learning combat skills yourself, finding an org who can protect you, or paying a veteran pilot to escort you. That's what I think will be great about this game, it will give us options, game loops we chose to do and others we just ignore with a transfer of creds. Any player should be able to engage with any one aspect of Star Citizen without having all that much experience. But if they want to take full advantage of that aspect, they'll need to put the hours in to figuring out it's ins and outs. It takes time to learn how to PvP just as it should take time to truly understand cargo running or whatever. The multiplayer aspect of Star Citizen will allow specialization, you will need players for all sorts of different things. As humans we are naturally quite chaotic and therefore all those interactions we will have will create "infinite" emergent gameplay.

[@williamlewis1805]

1) Signage is the CRITICAL solution for now 2) Anti Crime mechanics need buff 3) Players should be encouraged to react to attacks as dang I wish I was better and get better

[@sidrat2009]

It's a really interesting and important topic but what wasn't touched upon is what is the vision of the Developers. Along with player death it's how are players getting injured, rescued or dying and what happens in that experience as a whole? Do they log out and are never seen again? Those rescued do they tell their work friends and SC see's an increase in player count? Do the developers have a scope of what PvP should be, when and where it should be the penalties for doing it outside of the predetermined areas, or complete systems. How much player agency will there be for players to band together and effectively make Pyro a No Pirate zone because they have better more pilots who are former pirates that can blap any aggressor? That's sure is content for all concerned but would the devs step in and say wait that's not what the system is about it should be lawless including player groups. In EvE it's up to the Alliance members to police their space as they see fit, most operate on everyone who isn't a friend gets exploded without question nor conversation. Others allow everyone in but proven aggressors will be blacklisted and hunted down within that space. Will this level of player agency be allowed in Star Citizen? Of course it's up that group of players to fulfil their role in a meaningful way or get replaced with a different group of people who may share similar but different ideals. When there are 500 systems in the game will anyone see anyone else outside of their friends or away from a trade hub?

[@Farrister]

I think part of the challenge there is that different developer comments over the many years that the game has been in development are a little bit conflicting.

[@CMartias]

What Farrister says about Players stop Playing when get shot down too often, is totally true, and was observed in several games in the past.

[@ajmeyers5661]

When I first started it took forever to get up to the station (Bajini point I think?) with no tutorial. Then someone blew my ship up on the pad and I thought the game had crashed or something. I have no idea why I kept playing--random explosions that I thought were bugs and no intro to anything--but I'm glad I did!

[@latenightcynic3582]

I feel like there need to be locations other than ports that are more heavily patrolled by the NPC security forces but ALSO places that are lighter on patrols. As it stands, there are not enough areas where PvP is allowed that are also patrolled heavily. Right now, there is no risk and no reward for piracy. For those people just interested in getting into fight, they can go to Yela OM-1.

[@troyalessi]

Huge contextual element folks lose sight of on with 'Space Simulation' games is the Maritime - ships on the high seas - element of its core identity; hence piracy being of particular focus. Take note of the difference between a Pirate and Privateer: i think it will be important given how orgs and rep are implemented into the game. Pirates to some will be privateers to others, and vice versa, because of affiliation/association/contract.

[@Revixy]

This is the kind of thing that usually ruins a game when it comes to PVE & PVP environments for me; this is why I stopped playing EVE-ONLINE so many years ago because I got griefed when it was so damn difficult to even get a decent ship and when I finally got one I had to go far out in the middle of no where to get it. I was even lucky enough to get permission to dock at this player faction base where it was at. But my luck ended there; as I got screwed by a single far smaller ship on the way back out into the safer zones again to be able to even outfit it. And to those who don't know Eve-Online is an all player driven economy. So ships are being made and controlled by players, so there was no "just buy it in safe areas". Escape From Tarkov and other PVE PVP games suffer from similar problems; where you load in and bam you will get in a pvp fight pretty quickly and you'll likely lose 90% of the time because your opponent will be some kind of sweaty that doesn't do anything else but play the game all day. But in Star Citizen, this can be medicated due to it's openess of the entire game and in all honesty I have only run into a single person who've tried to shoot at me since 3.15. Yes I can see this game being filled with griefers later just to ruin the game for others just because they can by ramming peoples ships etc etc. And this is why I think hangers is so damn important to be added into the space stations as well as literally anywhere else, with the exception of the smaller outposts perhaps that isn't that developed yet for logical lore reasons. Do I think PVP should be removed from Star Citizen? No, that would kill the game and I honestly don't think anyone should be banned either for just doing pvp or being creative while trying to steal someone's ship or whatever else people come up with down the line; for as long as it's not using an exploit like a bug and the like to execute these actions. But that's just my opinion on the matter.

[@Jawnwickkk]

I think it PVP should be removed. or there should be separate mode/servers where there is PVP and non PVP. PVP completely ruins it for me. I just want to fly cool spaceships and do space stuff.

[@forcommenting1017]

Combat is a marketable skill in Star Citizen (one of many I hope). If you just want to fight, I believe there will be places where they are hiring mercenaries, or escorts through dangerous space. Right now we just don't have the structure that properly sorts all the different energies. Eventually I hope that all players will be able to find a niche (through the complex and diverse gameplay systems Star Citizen will have) that satisfies their in game desires. For now though, I think PvE and PvP players are just gonna have to find a way to tolerate each other.

[@Stevenbustamento]

Keenan did a good job of not interjecting his opinion much making it a 2v1 great of you to host this discussion. Devils advocate is my favorite role to play and I would have fallen to that instead of respecting the conversation and guiding it. You adding things to consider to both sides played perfectly and neutral and provided more talking points from both of them. respect and subbed ferrister's closing "reasonable people can disagree reasonably" is fucking staying with me forever. I agree with a fucking lot of what you said and I think opening your opinion up and discussing it sounded a lot more reasonable and less close minded judgey than your initial video (which is the first Ive seen you as Im a new as of today citizen) painted you to be - I really look forward to digging into your content more. a1 fuck you and thank you for your realistic approach. i love it and it makes me obsessive chasing more than that 1% gain. I agree with most of your points and I love and align with your approach naturally, though i get caught up chasing idealistic outcomes (robot performance is impossible for a human) - I think I have a lot to learn from you and I think your contributions to the community, outside of content at all, are commendable and respectable. I almost wish the conversation was longer... but I also want to fly for the second time ever

[@adarkwind4712]

Using a general term such as “any kind of discomfort” removed the possibility of things to not be grieving so long as the person who got got in any way does not like what has been done to them.

[@Rampagezilla]

Yo....thanks for breaking the video up man! But I still watched the whole thing. You guys did a great job!!!!

[@Meuduso1]

53:50 while usually not on the side of the PvPers in the whole thing, I completely agree with Avenger One in this especially The law system is built on three levels: The actual law and enforcement of it is the active short term part. If you do illegal stuff and get caught, you're getting a CS and if caught put into prison. Reputation is the passive but long term component. Why the hell would Crusader Industries trust you after you've comitted multiple crimes in their planetary sector. Just because your Crime Stat is null, doesn't mean they really want to work with you. And the third is Bounty Hunting, the proactive side of the law. Reputation of someone too low for a given zone? Bounty is given out. Too many laws broken? Bounty is given out. A mass of criminal activities lately, mercenary contracts to sweep sectors and raid stations are given out. Some parts of this goes both ways. For example, why would whoever runs Ruin Station let a well known Bounty Hunter that they don't respect themselves into their station? They're probably just gonna cause trouble or even imprison one of their "business partners", so the BH gets at least told off there. If a BH is too much of an issue for a local syndicate, why wouldn't it just put out a proper killing bounty on their head? And if the law of the local gang is that you don't wear the armor of their enemy because they don't like them, then that's the code and you're gonna get in trouble if you disregard that.

[@womblissimo6666]

The biggest problem is the lack of consequence .. lets suppose that the insurance companies billed pirates for all the ships that they had to pay out on to replace -- You attack and kill a ship and you get caught and you have to pay for the replacement cost of the ship you killed - like would actually happen - all of a sudden the idiots would stop griefing. If crime had to actually pay - if you had to spend time in Klescher to pay back the damage you had done to other ships - only proper criminals would bother ... You could only attack other people in areas with no comms array or take the comms array down first - you'd also have to make breaking into a Security Depot lesss laughable thoughg.

[@Foulmouth231]

I haven’t played, just observing. Is there a way to hail a ship you’re in combat with? Or do players use the area/region chat for that?

[@SpaceTomatoToo]

I believe you can hail a ship if you are targeting it, but I don't know the keybind :/

[@AzzaRudd]

I really agree with both chaps! The pirates are supposed to be a thing, anarchists are a bit more annoying cuz they are often people who have made their money and are just bored with current game loops, which I also understand! The bounty hunter system is a great way to kind of advertise your 'PVPness' but currently its far too simplistic, the Bounty Hunter V2 will help a great deal! In the final product there will need to be serious game mechanics to govern PVP ingame. Distress Beacons that players can put out to call for help when attacked (and afaik Quantum allow NPCs to do that too!), bounty hunters having to actually find criminals rather than follow easy icons, The ships will be more difficult to destroy but easier to disable or damage afaik which will help. I'd really like it if server blades will play into this too, e.g. criminals might get access to bounty hunter IDs, highlighting them in their local area to help them evade etc. We also need a massive improvement to VOIP to allow easier communication between both friendlies defending eachother and enemies wanting to extort or negotiate. In the final product systems like Stanton should have massive police and lawful responses to unlawful players. whereas you should know you are taking on the risks if you want to go to Pyro and do well...anything; you're either doing lawful activity at risk, or competing with others with unlawful activity.

[@chrisbates67]

If your in the game to have a kill/death ratio...its straight up GREAFING.

[@durtyred86]

Pirate- An individual who looks to take goods or money by force or other illegal actions. Not always by violence. Marauder- A person who kills and pillages for the thrill. They don't necessarily need or want your stuff. They just want to fight and kill be it other fighters or innocent bystanders. Causing hell is what drives them. Griefer: Someone who manipulates a gameplay mechanic and/or continues to hunt down and kill the same person over and over. An individual who camps a place and repeatedly kills players who are coming and going. Pad rammer, campers right outside of armistice zones.. etc.. I think there's definitely a fine line between griefing and marauding but there's still a line. Some players don't want to acknowledge that because their on the business end and feel it's automatically griefing because someone came to kill them without any reason. This is the difference between Pirates, Marauders and Griefers. Pirates want to see you live to work another day.. for your sake and their future purse... Marauders want to see your fear and if you have good stuff on you, they'll happily take it but weather you submit or not, you'll probably get a bloody nose by them if they're feeling charitable.. You'll be dead if they're having a bad day... Griefers just want you angry and want to manipulate the game to force people NOT to play.. These guys are game killers... they don't want it to succeed and they want to do whatever it takes to say; don't play this game. That's my take on the matter.

[@mauricethespacecowboy8108]

PvP is an important part of the game for those it is important to.

[@TheDestroyer702]

What I see happening is CIG makes a reputation system that persists after death. So, when you kill someone, the consequences persist after death so that even after you get out of jail, the security might still kill you on sight until you work to get back a positive reputation

[@NoOneCares2k]

Awesome show! Great commentary on the fact that SC is designed around PvP. Even mining and trading have indirect PvP aspects and sources are limited.

[@NotUnymous]

Exactly. Sadly most "miners" fail to see that. I wont blame them tho - I think CIG is at fault to design a PvP game but flash out it's "non-combat" gameplay before it's core gameplay. No wonder caegohaulers and miners have it difficult to step back a moment and look at the real core systems of this game.

[@finalform11]

Vanduul idea is really cool, kinda like in Escape from tarkov when you play as an scav. Implement it with breaching and the ability to leave the ship and its fucking amazing.

[@ajmeyers5661]

Players can already tag in and help Xenothreat or Ninetails, so perhaps helping the Vanduul isn't out of the question. In fact helping Ninetails can be easier--you've got numbers on your side and kill missions are always easier than escort missions. The downside is you can't set spawn to the station being blockaded.

[@timjerrom7173]

Be back on later to talk more, not a PvP player but had some fun flying around Grimhex on a box run mission that adds to the excitement. Think what this game NEEDS is a basic pilot training lessons before you take your first flight, which just to take off and land I had to learn how from KZbin.

[@CharlieVanLiew]

This was essentially personal responsibility vs regulation. It mirrored all the social divides we see in America. Equal opportunity vs Equality of outcomes. I think a rewarding sheepdog mechanic to protect areas for rookies would be really fun. Make a sherif or deputy system where you can rank up and get issued ships with unlock systems that give even better ships the longer you have protected the weak. The ships can be locked to a radius around a zone before a crime has been committed and it self destructs.

[@CharlieVanLiew]

Make guarding a zone fun!

[@ianwilson4286]

Avenger one basically get good or get dead. He skipped the the unfair fight Prospector fighter and being jumped when coming out of a jump. If the attacker gets nothing and the player being attacked had no fun and lost all. To many one-sided attacks that are not fun will kill a game. When the person leaves the game as they are attacked all the time the griever will no longer have a target and get board and leave.

[@and_barty3316]

I also think Avenger Ones arguments are very weak..What he's trying to justify is simply trolling/griefing by imposing on others how to play the game. Some may have other things to do, than practicing dogfighting for hours every day like him. It would be like boxing people in a sports center who actually want to play football. And when they lie on the floor annoyed, I say, sorry, just practice boxing better.. I also like dogfighting from time to time but in a "realistic" setting. I really hope CIG will provide immersive and realistic gameplay in the future and not just a sandbox playground for toxic hardcore gamers. If you are one of those, please use Arena Commander. I like Farrister saying "enlighten me", so funny ^^

[@animusnocturnus7131]

Very good discussion!

[@Nzchimeran]

Avenger one is the last guy to understand the struggle of a PvE player. Let me break it down for you real easy Here's my game time, two hours a day, father, I run a company, I am busy. Log in Wake up in hospital bed, hospital gown no gear Was killed by PvP'er for no reason except trying to dock at a spaceport * Reclaim my Valkyrie ~ 16 minute timer * Equip free under suit and helmet * Elevator to refinery to purchase my Multitool and tractor beam attachment * Elevator to Galleria to purchase gun , med pens, ammunition * Purchase backpack ~ Armor I want is PvE mission loot * Organize inventory and equipment ~ Wait for claimed ship to arrive ( I don't want to pay the 8K) * Lift to ship hanger * F1 select call to arms * Lift off and QT to planet * F1 and look for Starfarer search mission ( they have the biggest chance of NPC enemy and wear the armor set I like ) ~ This can take up to 20 minutes depending on what mission is available * QT as close as I can get to mission crash site ~ sometimes it is a 20-30 minute flight depending on distance to free flight the last remaining distance * Land ship, scout area, kill enemy NPC * Tractor beam each body to ship cargo hold one at a time * Loot bodies, store items, remove bodies ( I now have the armor set I enjoy playing in ) * Close ship ramp * Lift off and exit atmosphere * QT to planet * F1 look for my normal bunker PvE missions which I really enjoy and it is how I earn a living in SC BOOOOOOMMMMMMM !!!!!!!!!!! Dead, killed by PvP'er Rinse repeat, and that's how PvP is total bullshit against a non PvP'er in a non PvP ship ( my Valkyrie ) Don't try and use the old piracy excuse to hide behind, PvP against PvE players, that tactic is nothing more than chest puffing, E peening bully boy tactics. There are real RP pirate players and they do a great job, it is fun to read them in global chat asking for ransom etc.... Avenger One if far from that level of skill in communication and game play. Avenger one admitted he is in it for the adrenalin rush of killing other players...... wow....ok then? Avenger One does not understand PvE play style because he does not do it and as he thinks he's at the top of the food chain, he gives 0 fuks for players like me, I've watched him rant on one of his videos, he is totally out of touch, he ever thought ships have a 2 minute claim timer ( because he only uses small fighter PvP build ships ) Go PvP against other PvP ships and players in dedicated zones and events, PvP is the minority of the player base as proven time and time again in games that share PvP with PvE Avenger One can continue stroking his ego Farrister you had to play Kindergarten teacher today, listening to Avenger One was cringe worthy, I am sure you were smashing your face into the keyboard often during this debate.

[@SergioLeRoux]

I've noticed that A1 has a certain debating style that rubs me the wrong way, and that is very common of pundits that try to justify their extreme viewpoint, then as soon as they get pushback, they pretend to agree to a less extreme version, over and over until they completely erode the opposing views. It was super obvious when he started asking Farrister "do you agree with X? Do you agree that Y is true? Do you agree that Z is true?" With the intention to make the other side to agree with something more extreme that "logically follows" that is only tangentially related. Which is a very common tactic I've seen from certain types of debaters. Glad that was shut down almost immediately. When bringing up the 30% rule, the sarcasm dripping from that response, "enlighten me" was probably my favorite line in the discussion. To me it's obvious that A1 is pushing an agenda, and that is "everyone should *learn to enjoy* PvP like me. All they need is to be properly *educated*"

[@cypher5726]

Few words to describe Avenger1: Egotistical/ Self Centered/ Hypocritical/ Shallow/ Angry/ Prick

[@ShockerPlayZz]

Avenger is a wild tornado that needs to be tamed just a bit. Let them keep spinning but he needs to put a few those houses back down. His philosophy on PVP is extremely aggressive.

[@thefallline7326]

You can play an open world mmo with combat like a single player game, but don’t complain that your experience isn’t optimal.

[@VersatileVelvet]

Interesting discussion. I am a little disappointed that the problem of the difference of time lost by non-consensual PvP wasn't brought up. When a player attacked the first random player he encounters, he hasn't spend a lot of time in the game for it. On the contrary, the other player could have spent a lot of time like half an hour of boxes mission or hours of trading to be able to pay the cargo he will loose. And it will only increase in the future, what about spending hours to earn money to buy cargo, then hours to load your ship, then maybe hours to move from system to system and then a random player just login and shoot you after 10min of gameplay. I'm exaggerating durations for the sake of explanation but most of the issue I think come from the difference of time required for both parties.

[@MonteKristof]

It underline the importance to have an escort in the future, or fully crewed ship (turrets manned, etc...

[@VersatileVelvet]

​@@MonteKristof Sure but the difference of time consumption is still a fondamental issue that has to be balanced before event introducing the notion of escort. Not every situation will pay enough for an escort and the issue will still be present (especially for new players).

[@MonteKristof]

@@VersatileVelvet That is absolutely true, but when time is on the short side, there is also much less time to be found and targeted. The longer you stay out in the verse, especially in lower sec places, the higher the chance to be found. IDK, I think...

[@neofromthewarnerbrothersic145]

35:00 Well you guys will be glad to hear that my experience of JumpTown was 100% different from what you're describing. I was still pretty new so I was hesitant to try it, and when I finally did, it went TERRIBLY. I only tried it 3 times: 1st try, my ship spontaneously exploded while flying through the atmosphere. Pretty damn sure I didn't hit anything or get shot, just exploded. Worse, my spawn was all the way across the system. 2nd try, set my spawn closer, got all geared up with armor and weapons, flew there in my cutty, and saw a couple of other ships parked near the place. So I got out and saw another guy near the entrance... had no idea if he was hostile or not. Didn't do anything threatening, we looked at each other for a few seconds, then he just shot me. So I spawned at the nearest station, and got annoyed because you couldn't purchase any armor or weapons there. 3rd try, I arrived and hovered over the station, and saw gunfire on the ground. Decided I wasn't messing around anymore and couldn't trust anybody, so I just started shooting. Blew up one of their ships, got a crimestat. Someone came to claim my bounty, killed him, got another CS. So I abandoned jumptown and decided to try out the criminal life for a couple of days. Tried to hack my crimestat but got killed by the station and went to jail. All in all, it felt like a really confusing and frustrating experience. I always saw people talking in chat about who's friendly at JT, are there any hostiles, etc., so I had no idea if you're just supposed to shoot everybody on sight or what. I knew it was a "PVP event", but didn't know exactly what that's supposed to mean.

[@generalrendar7290]

I think that Elite Dangerous had a good solution to griefing with high, medium, low, and no security space where the game would make it harder or easier to attack other players. They then broke it with the implementation of engineering and forgetting to buff security forces as well. It sprouted and extremely toxic community of seal clubbers who would hunt and destroy new players to the point that it drove them away. It also wouldn't make sense for a government to suffer attacks on it's logistics for an especially long time. Look at the LA train robberies, even that soft on crime government was forced to act once a big enough stink was raised and there were calls that the federal government may have to intervene. Now to help out the PvP community, jump points offer choke points, if medium and low sec space would pay more then it is far more likely to get players who are more accepting of loss. PvP arenas might also be an excellent place to allow people to duel and fight. Eve had great tournaments with duels and groups. What is important, is that PvP doesn't drive away players, signage and tips in the loading screens are just one tool.

[@kuda9464]

I think that griefers know when they are griefing, and shouldn't have a problem with being called griefers. However, I don't want griefers to be artificially regulated by being reported or getting banned. I think that organic and realistic ingame consequences are the best way forward. If possible, everyone who plays SC should find an org to fly with, get better at defending themselves or learn how to disengage effectively when attacked

[@rubentaiartinger2640]

There are already some like bounty missions from vlrt to ert

[@Godwinsname]

Great stuff, thanks Space Tomato :)

[@cybinnine4977]

Everyone at CIG should watch this episode... period.

[@samrye8342]

The vastness of space is your safety. Bringing your wares to market is where the danger is.