Kathleen Stock and Richard Dawkins Question Modern Gender Identity

The savage missiles hurled at Kathleen Stock in the stocks of Sussex University gives the lie to the pretense that her tormentors should be pitied as an oppressed minority who just want to peacefully get on with their life. I’ve long admired her gentle courage in the face of vicious bullying. When we finally met at the Dissident Dialogues Conference in New York this May, I felt an instant affinity. It was a pleasure to conduct the following interview.
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[@ferriveiro3101]

I'm so glad left wing people are talking about this. This isn't a left vs right issue. This is about fighting irrational ideas.

[@christinadodd5780]

I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on KZbin or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening. If not, at least read about WPATH files and Cass report.

[@calstonjew]

Left is pro LGBT

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

@ferriveiro3101 how about looking the current research instead of making stuff up.

[@calumlambert]

​@@christinadodd5780trans epidemic? You do realise there is 400,000 transgender people in the UK in a population of 70 million right? You've just been suckered in by the algorithm. Speak to trans people. Speak to actual people like me. There is no epidemic. Just a small amount of people like me wanting to live their lives in peace.

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

the only irrational ideas are that trans is an ideology and that gender is binary.

[@clemdane]

I remember as a 13 year old reading about the Salem Witch trials and wondering how anyone could have believed that or how the girls could make these accusations and now it's just crystal clear.

[@domm6812]

I've thought the same.

[@philipadams5386]

@@KickRocks-me7hh There is no hostility to so-called 'trans' people. Most would agree that trans people should be permitted to lead their lives as they wish under law. However, there is resistance to the indoctrination and maiming of children, resistance to the erasure of 'woman' as a legal class of person (thus the erasure of women-only spaces and women-only sports), and there is resistance to persons who make demands that everyone must participate in their fantasies.

[@philipadams5386]

@@KickRocks-me7hh There is no hostility to so-called 'trans' people. Most would agree that trans people should be permitted to lead their lives as they wish under law. However, there is resistance to the indoctrination and maiming of children, resistance to the erasure of 'woman' as a legal class of person (thus the erasure of women-only spaces and women-only sports), and there is resistance to persons who make demands that everyone must participate in acting out their fantasies.

[@philipadams5386]

@@KickRocks-me7hh Yes, there's so much of a witch hunt against trans people that KZbin won't even permit me to post my respectful four-point rebuttal of your argument. In point of fact, the witch hunt is for people such as Katherine Stock, Richard Dawkins and me. Personally, I'd say it was trans privilege.

[@JoanneBartone]

No, ​@KickRocks-me7hh there's a witch hunts against women. "TERF" is the latest reiteration of "witch," but it's no surprise that "trans" people try to make themselves into a victim in this regard, too. 🙄

[@IslandArt61]

I'm in an area and industry in the US where this is prevalent. As an older progressive white male I was pretty much "live and let live" thinking there's no real harm in this. Eventually I began to look at it as maybe just selfishness that could border on narcissism. A person says they are trans and the entire surrounding world must accept and bend to their whim. When the "trans" colleague arrives in the morning, everyone is on eggshells worrying might they say something wrong. Change your lifetime of language least you make some newspeak faux pas or "misgender," a crime worse than murder. Seriously, that kind of fear, what a power to have over people. One day someone railed about J.K. Rowling. I wondered at what she said that could bring forth such venom. I eventually found her now famous post, "dress however you please, call yourself whatever you like....." I was completely taken aback at the absurdity of the attacks. That sent me down the rabbit hole where I discovered Maya Forstader, Helen Joyce, Stella O'Mally, Kathleen Stock, Sall Grover, Graham Linehan, and many more people speaking honestly and intelligently on the subject -- and suffering for that speech. I also discovered my ignorance about "trans healthcare". Turns out it's not flu shots and blood tests, but drastically altering bodies, including children. "Trans healthcare", Orwellian words. One sad thing about getting informed on this subject is that my stand now puts me on the same side as rabid right-wingers with whom I have no other common ground. I'm now the lone goat standing off to the side from the screaming right wing-sheep led by equally vile activists as the people promoting this contagion. I hope the young people here in the US begin the shift back to reality as is happening in other places.

[@281992pdr]

Well said. I am in Australia and have had almost identical experiences. From the "live and let live" to being the leftish liberal now seemingly siding with the rabid right-wingers. And the rabbit hole experience continues - I have just finished reading my eighth book on this madness with Judith Butler's latest one full of incoherent, sometimes impenetrable gobledygook being that last one. I believe we live in uniquely stupid times.

[@Narapoia1]

Same experience for me - I feel really uncomfortable being on the same side as the right wingers on anything given their track record on social issues. However the data seems to be very poor overall and particularly in the area of youth gender care, certainly not sufficient to justify the medical interventions that are being presented as a treatment. There seems to be a significant medical scandal brewing in youth gender care.

[@karagi101]

@@IslandArt61 Left-wing and liberal are not the same things. These left-wing nutcases are closer to fascist or soviet communists. I’m a classic liberal. Truth overrides all ideologies.

[@ralphwiggum3463]

you literally admit to falling down a rabit hole yet you dont see how bizzare your views are? lmao

[@carmenmccauley585]

Me too! I'm standing in the same place but somehow the left are indeed out in left field and I'm surrounded by rightwingers with whom I agree on only the one thing. Women don't have a penis and they do have a womb.

[@annabizaro-doo-dah]

I could listen to Kathleen Stock all week. I love her use of clear, precise language and her calm and reasoned manner. So enjoyable.

[@jaijai5250]

She is so easy to listen to. She really does communicate effectively, so that those who aren’t familiar with academic language are able to comprehend. I too could listen to her all day.

[@caoilinmaclaverty9040]

⁠I agree. She sheds so much light on a mad mad world.

[@Arkinals]

Socrates dialectic, the Deus ex machina, hovers. Where's the science. All I hear are disconnected assertions. Enter the brain gene experts...

[@DemstarAus]

I think people need to realise that just because you disagree about something, doesn't make you enemies.

[@OmegaGrunt]

Well it depends, if someone were debating my right to co-exist peacefully then I might consider them an enemy. There are fundamental religious movements who feel anyone LGBTQ+ needs to be rounded up and dealt with by the government permanently, and I don't think its possible to peacefully disagree when they are willing to take actions towards that goal. It's simply the paradox of tolerance. Though I agree in the sentiment that there needs to be more mutual respect in debates as well as listening and reasoning in good faith.

[@allenoverall7361]

The world use to be this way as long as we didn't intrude on eachother..

[@AdamHuntley-z3l]

It's just a shame that this can't be shared and understood by those who need to hear it

[@Aliandrin]

If you disagree about a moral imperative and you're not a tolerant person who is inclined to ignore your own morality and let others live how they like, disagreement does make you enemies.

[@Arkinals]

Socrates dialectic, the Deus ex machina, hovers. Where's the science. All I hear are disconnected assertions. Enter the brain gene experts...

[@SuperBlinding]

I am a Great Admirer of Kathleen Stock ~ ~ Also Great Credit to Richard Dawkins for taking on this Gender Identity Stuff.

[@MultipleGrievance]

He's about 7 years too late, but sure....

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

Define gender identity

[@SuperBlinding]

@@KickRocks-me7hh Male Chromosomes = Male. Female Chromosomes = Female. Trust The Science.

[@rclaws3230]

​@@KickRocks-me7hhAn ephemeral delusion fabricated wholecloth to assert one's narcissism in a publicly acceptable manner supported by civil rights law, institutional fiat, and new religious dogma.

[@springwood1331]

@kickrocks what is its intention?

[@alisonlevinson2638]

Kathleen Stock is incredibly brave to stand up for reality and common sense in the face of such vicious intimidation and with no support from her university. She could have caved in for a quiet life but she stood firm and faced the consequences. Amazing 👏

[@moif_velocita]

Don't be fooled. She's made a lot of evangelical money doing this. Bravery doesn't factor into it. Trans people have no power or authority and can't hurt her so she's not risked anything and gained a lot by attacking people who can't defend themselves.

[@wrealini]

@@moif_velocita In the US a teen under 18 can have their parents consent to a surgery making a permanent change (sexual change) because of what these young people see on social media. I don't see this as any kind of positive for these young people. Parents, the medical community, politicians need to set a boundary and tell a 15 year old "no", you can make this decision when you're 18 or older. I work in mental health and I cannot diagnosis a client under 18 because their brains haven't developed enough for the diagnosis, yet someone 15 can make this kind of life altering decision?!

[@moif_velocita]

@@wrealini Give me a break! I'm intersex, born with two DSDs and I was given genital corrective surgery when I was eight years old. No one asked me what I wanted and they got it wrong. They thought I was a boy but I'm not. I've had to live decades with the painful consequences of other people's 'expertise'. Trans children aren't even given surgery but you're all so concerned about it, meanwhile none of you hypocrites ever had anything to say about seven decades of surgeries carried out on intersex children. Leave trans children alone.

[@wrealini]

@@moif_velocita Okay, what you endured is awful. I have trans clients who are adults. What I am saying is anyone under the age of 18 should be left alone (surgically) until they can make their own decision.

[@holagente5614]

@@moif_velocita Agreeeeeed. How can she (and others) pontificate about what "reality" is for Trans/Intersex folk

[@timmygibsonkc]

I spent 30 years as an Evangelical Pastor and walked away 6 years ago after reading The God Delusion, along with other books to help me come to terms with having spend nearly 50!years believing in a mythical man made religion. So genuinely, THANK YOU! My life has greatly improved! Keep speaking and writing!

[@SiRushBass]

Bravo to Kathleen for standing up and talking about this. It costs a lot to do this in today's climate, but it sadly needs to be done. Thank you

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

@SiRushBass she's not qualified not qualified not qualified not qualified

[@SiRushBass]

@@KickRocks-me7hh if you say so. However ad hominem is a poor counter argument.

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

@@SiRushBass how is thst an ad hominem? Do you understand that term? I take that as no.

[@karenrudd7660]

As a gay women and philosopher, a member of 2 marginalised groups disproportionately negatively impacted by trans gender activism and the ideology underpinning it, plus being an academic trained in deep critical thinking and exposing the flaws within ideology not only IS she qualified she is uniquely more qualified then most to provide much needed critique here!!!

[@calumlambert]

Are you kidding me? Do you know how much money this women has made since leaving or rather not being good enough any longer to be in academia? She hasn't lost anything. She's doing better than ever attacking people like me with no evidence but her own distaste and ego.

[@gingerbanyai-riepl8539]

HUGE respect, Professor Dawkins. I will NEVER forget the amazing opportunity I had when I worked security for your event at the University of Washington, Seattle, 2008. I got to shake your hand and you had your editor send me a copy of your recent book. So kind! So glad you are talking about this topic! Thank you!

[@janinegriffiths8281]

As a sociologist, I understand gender and gender roles to mean how society expects a biological woman or man to behave in a particular culture; and, those expectations vary from society to society. Unfortunately it seems that gender and sex have been conflated to our detriment. Thanks for a very interesting conversation.

[@christinadodd5780]

I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on KZbin or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening. If not, at least read about WPATH files and Cass report.

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

but thats not gender identity/

[@RC-qf3mp]

‘Gender’ as now used by the ideology is simply a sex-based stereotype that has been reified into an ‘identity’ that a person has or is and so is integral to them and sacrosanct. But then they want to dissociate the sex-based stereotype qua gender from sex itself. And that dissociation leads to the irrationality and internal contradictions of the ideology. It’s pure nonsense. I refuse to use the word ‘gender’ - i just speak of sex and sex-based stereotypes and if somebody insists on the word ‘gender’ as distinct from ‘sex’ then i force them to explain themselves ,and then invariably cannot.

[@irmar]

In Italian we use "gender" in grammar. Because as you may know, in European languages as well as in Greek, everything has a gender. In Italian, the sea is male, the chair is female, the table is male and so on. Even animals, when you don't know the sex of a specific one, have a standard gender, such as cat and lion are male (the word also has a female form, but if you talk generically you always use the male form) but the tiger is female.

[@JustinLHopkins]

Then you should also know that the world changes and sometimes rapidly. Get on with your life and get out of others.

[@Margo5050]

Thank you for these words and ideas. Very clear wording. Thank you. I left the Humanist Society when they took your award away. I was a Humanist Celebrant.

[@MultipleGrievance]

That might have been the best thing to come out of this whole trans insanity..... It's proved once and for all that religion is unnecessary For the propagation of a dangerous ideology. The new atheists as well as the humanists were the first to fall to this new mind virus.

[@katiewoosnam9655]

So was I!!

[@DexterDexter123]

two of my favourite people who talk in straight lines - a balm for the mind

[@BrotherAlpha]

They are siding with the literal Nazis.

[@JamieHarte]

Well put. I always feel like Kathleen Stock puts the fresh air back in the room. She gives me hope that sense will prevail eventually.

[@Arkinals]

"Straight lines" are good? Linear thinking? Socrates dialectic, the Deus ex machina, hovers. Where's the science. All I hear are disconnected assertions. Enter the brain gene experts...

[@Lovertonify]

Kathleen Stock is my hero, thank you for having her on the show

[@suzygirl1843]

Funny thing is that Western countries fid this to themselves. You do t see this nonsense in Africa, India, Arab or Asian countries etc. It's where the WHITE people are. Even in South Africa, LGBTQ is heavily concentrated in WHITE areas. Its a majority black country and gay people live in the whitest part in the Western Cape. So tell me who the real problem is? It's women who look like her that created Feminism

[@globalvillage423]

Ah, so you have a hero whose superpower is making controversial statements about gender and sexuality? I bet your idea of a sidekick would be someone who starts debates at every family gathering. Who needs saving the day when you can save face with awkward discussions instead, right?

[@L_Martin]

@@globalvillage423 Children can’t consent is a controversial view in your book? 🤔

[@L_Martin]

@@KickRocks-me7hhYou haven’t read the Cass Review and you’re calling others ignorant?

[@frankdelahue9761]

​@@L_Martindo you know who actually wrote that comment?

[@OhUiginn]

Kathleen Stock is amazing. More Progressives should listen to her. Just drop Gender Ideology. It is not helping anyone.

[@moif_velocita]

There is no such thing as 'gender ideology'. Trans people are people

[@OhUiginn]

​@@moif_velocitaOf course there is. If you think women have penises , thats called Gender Ideology. Where did I say they are not people?

[@jonjonson-dd7gq]

@@moif_velocita Yes, people under a mistaken pretense are people. No one said they weren’t.

[@michaellovullo7363]

Teaching the gender unicorn to grade school children. Is teaching a religious ideology to children. ​@@moif_velocita

[@kartashuvit4971]

What is "gender ideology"?

[@garyweglarz]

Dr. Stock is right there with Ms. Rowling as a modern day heroine worthy of everyone's respect and admiration.

[@Gcarse]

And Helen Joyce.

[@jonjonson-dd7gq]

And Kellie Jay Keen

[@connor5669]

Kathleen Stock has expressed support for Nina Power, a nazi

[@connor5669]

​@@jonjonson-dd7gqNazis showed up to KJK's rally in Melbourne. They said they see themselves as the vanguard of her movement

[@garyweglarz]

@@jonjonson-dd7gq - absolutely!

[@ShazWag]

60-year-old great-grandmother here, with no "transgenders" in my family that I'm aware of. I completely agree with everything Kathleen Stock said here. The whole "gender" concept is beyond insanity! I sometimes feel like I'm living in a dystopian novel! I recently did a BSc in Psychology and was quickly shut up by a professor when I mentioned on a forum that gender relates to social identity, whereas sex is biological (since someone asked if they meant the same thing). I also realised that my assignment marks depended on what my tutors wanted to hear, especially regarding LGBTQ+ (hope I got that right) and not really about what I thought. Very sad. I think parents are more likely to suck up to their kids' wishes these days, as upsetting them could easily invite a psychological label, such as the 'N' word, and today's parents are easily and ruthlessly "cancelled". Social media and being exposed to repetitive information through algorithms is definitely shaping impressionable young minds and minimising various perspectives. Critical thinking is decreased this way, especially as younger individuals have a stronger urge to socially conform and be accepted into their peer groups, which influencers understand is inherent, since we're social animals with tribal instincts. Yes, this affects us all, but younger people even more. The parent-child hierarchy has reversed and 'newspeak' is real.

[@Arkinals]

Socrates dialectic, the Deus ex machina, hovers. Where's the science. All I hear are disconnected assertions. Enter the brain gene experts...

[@tonycairns6728]

Good observations @ShazWag I agree.

[@neonwired4978]

pure ignorance. Imagine, parents supporting their child, i guess your generation thinks violently beating it out of them is a solution. The fact that you have zero experience of something and immediately express a derogatory opinion of it is pure bigotry.

[@bulldogklaus47]

"Convoluted' is the most generous word I could use to describe Judith Butler's writing.

[@garyweglarz]

I'm not sure Ms. Butler could find her own arse - if she used both hands. : /

[@281992pdr]

Yes. I suffered through reading her latest book. Almost all of it is convoluted, imprenetrable gobbledygook.

[@bulldogklaus47]

@@281992pdr I sacrificed my 4 remaining brain cells to finish it. Alas, being well-informed bears a heavy price.

[@Rocko130185]

People with nothing sensible to say use words like she does to obscure the nonsense they are writing behind a veneer of word salad. How anyone ever took her seriously is beyond me, but I think that says more about academia than anything.

[@stephensimpson8531]

To quote Chomsky, “There are lots of things I don't understand -- say, the latest debates over whether neutrinos have mass or the way that Fermat's last theorem was (apparently) proven recently. But from 50 years in this game, I have learned two things: (1) I can ask friends who work in these areas to explain it to me at a level that I can understand, and they can do so, without particular difficulty; (2) if I'm interested, I can proceed to learn more so that I will come to understand it. Now Derrida, Lacan, Lyotard, Kristeva, etc. --- even Foucault, whom I knew and liked, and who was somewhat different from the rest --- write things that I also don't understand, but (1) and (2) don't hold: no one who says they do understand can explain it to me and I haven't a clue as to how to proceed to overcome my failures. That leaves one of two possibilities: (a) some new advance in intellectual life has been made, perhaps some sudden genetic mutation, which has created a form of "theory" that is beyond quantum theory, topology, etc., in depth and profundity; or (b) ... I won't spell it out.”

[@acacia_w]

I'm always impressed by how calm and cool Kathleen Stock remains in the face of all the flack she's taken and the general idiocy she is up against. What an icon.

[@suzygirl1843]

Funny thing is that Western countries fid this to themselves. You do t see this nonsense in Africa, India, Arab or Asian countries etc. It's where the WHITE people are. Even in South Africa, LGBTQ is heavily concentrated in WHITE areas. Its a majority black country and gay people live in the whitest part in the Western Cape. So tell me who the real problem is?

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

being ignorant isnt cool tho

[@dalriadaskillen]

@@KickRocks-me7hhIgnorant about what?

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

@@dalriadaskillen gender identity

[@281992pdr]

@@KickRocks-me7hh Here is ignorance dressed in obscurantism: Judith Butler's "Who's Afraid of Gender?" Worst book I have ever read. Complete gobbledegook. This is not the writing of a genuine academic. I have manually calculated that she uses "scare quotes" 3.1 times on average for every page of text, on individual words and some phrases, and these are inconsistently applied. Why does she do that? For what purpose? Also try this: What does the following on p230 mean? "Its localist appeal to anti-imperialist sentiment is an appropriation of a Left critique, but surely not one." That is verbatim. From the preceding sentences the "Its" might be referring to opposition to gender, English or objection to multilingualism or something else. How would any reader know? Like so much of this book it is convoluted and non-sensical rubbish. And, here is another, same page: "In a multilingual epistemology, there are no foreign languages since every language sounds foreign from within another language; or maybe every language is foreign, which means there are no languages that are foreign." If I had written something as silly, as incomprehensible, as that in my PhD it would not have been passed - in fact the draft would not even have got by my supervisor. The book is a great example of the dubious linguistic contortions that underpin the trans distortion of reality - and that distortion permeates trans world. Utter rubbish, and that is what the fantasy of gender identity is.

[@MGMarkov]

a brave woman speaking about this real issue

[@christinadodd5780]

I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on KZbin or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening. If not, at least read about WPATH files and Cass report.

[@Margo5050]

This is so complex and well stated and covers so many aspects I can’t tell you enough how great this conversation was. ❤❤ Thank you Kathleen Stock for saying the truth about women’s safety and the unfairness in sports. Thanks to both of you.

[@johnwindisman2803]

Two of the smartest people on the planet. Love this adult conversation.

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

not very smart to be dishonest.

[@uriituw]

@@KickRocks-me7hh Where’s the dishonesty?

[@ALavin-en1kr]

Gender identity crises likely proves that Darwinism with its focus on the biological as primary is wrong as people have identities that are not dependent on biology but on their sense of selfhood.

[@V0lkerRach0]

Two of the smartest people on the planet speaking into two of the shittiest microphones on the planet.

[@hartyewh1]

I hope you realise all you said was "I'm so glad someone is supporting my pre-existing believes". Referring to their intelligence is only you trying to relate that to yourself. Neither shine on this topic certainly.

[@ahmedmustafalabib3185]

Always excited when I see a Kathleen Stock video is up. Likewise, always excited when a Richard Dawkins video is up. So can't express my excitement when I saw a video featuring both of them.

[@Uncaged_cricket]

Currently, an amazing, highly studied, cool professor at my university was just forced into investigative LOA for “misgendering” a student while on a study abroad trip this summer. All classes cancelled… Madness. Scary. Hit very close to home.

[@TeamDiezinelli]

Kathleen is saying exactly the right things on a lot of topics. She is also telling the truth about fetish and sexual preferences and having these things allowed into female spaces, changing rooms etc. People need to hear that and have a decent disussion about it. Only when we have the whole picture, decerned decisions can be made. I have great admiration for her.

[@christinadodd5780]

💯💯 I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on KZbin or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening. If not, at least read about WPATH files and Cass report.

[@TeamDiezinelli]

@@christinadodd5780 i have read the WPATH files article from Michael Schellenberger and it amazes me how many countries still continue to apply those “standards”?

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

confirmation bias

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

theres no such thing as female spaces.

[@post_hit_invincibility9940]

​@@KickRocks-me7hh you're spamming the whole comment section with empty accusations and derailing questions. Guess what you don't do: bring empirical evidence for your position on this matter. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[@broadcastbytes]

Im hoping a director reads this. Those microphones are side address mics not end address. Your audio will improve if you set them up as such.

[@justmy2cents652]

Yes! The audio quality was so bad. I got stressed listening to it. And not bc of the content.

[@PianoDentist]

I could be wrong but those mics look like AT2020 cardioid polar mics, which should be fine. However, the poor audio sounds like the recording device is not using these mics, perhaps the wrong device is selected and defaulting to the laptop internal mic instead? If they are in use, then Richard and Kathleen should speak closer into them as these mics need some driving and to reduce the impact of that boxy sounding room - given there doesn't seem to be any sound deadening material in that room. edit at 38:10 the sound improves!

[@jenesisjones6706]

@@justmy2cents652 You get stressed THAT easily ;)

[@mikesully110]

@@jenesisjones6706 i know lol as far as I'm concerned I can hear them talking and that is fine to me. What would these people have done in the days of AM radio?

[@BenjaminGatti]

Agree, this is pretty poor, by folks who don't understand how to present information. Feels like a lot of words, very little content.

[@Pyhantaakka]

The utter look of disbelief on Professor Dawkins face every now and then is excellent t-shirt material.

[@JK-888-OB]

Kathleen got this spot on, when talking about the evolution of the interpretations of gender. This dualistic "If I feel like a man/woman then I must be treated as one" is very much designed to be similar in tactics to religions. You simply can't argue against it because it's a "belief" or a "feeling" and it's been taken that way on purpose by its proponents.

[@BrotherAlpha]

Explain intersex people.

[@cyclicozone2072]

@@BrotherAlphaDo you think intersex people refute the binary? They reinforce it lmao. They aren’t some intermediate sex. You can categorize them as male or female.

[@281992pdr]

@@BrotherAlpha Nature is not perfect, it makes mistakes. .02% are intersex. They often choose to have the disorder altered so that they conform to male or female. That is because they know sex is binary - i.e. 99.89% are born male or female. The thing speaks for itself.

[@ribbonsofnight]

@@BrotherAlpha Some are men who have developed abnormally and some are women who have developed abnormally. We usually say they have a disorder of sexual development because intersex doesn't make sense.

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

youre deluded

[@kpt002]

You were talking about the ages, in what age these transitioning interventions start: The American detranistioner activist Chloe Cole began transitioning at 12 years old. "In February 2018, she was prescribed the puberty blocker Lupron at age 13. A month later, she started testosterone injections, which she continued for two years. Cole had a double mastectomy at age 15 in June 2020.." So at a VERY early age!

[@christinadodd5780]

I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on KZbin or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening. If not, at least read about WPATH files and Cass report.

[@Bee.Gee.]

Gender is a red-herring term. Biological sex is real, binary, immutable, established at conception and observed - not assigned - at birth. Gender is hard to define - mostly because the very people pushing the idea are impossible to pin down on what it means. They'll conflate gender and sex, or differentiate between the two, as needed for their rhetorical purposes. If we understand gender as a socially constructed set of norms, roles, and expectations that is culturally superimposed on biological sex, rather than debating whether there are two genders, or three, or more, or if there are eight billion, a better idea would be to do away with the concept altogether - to dispense with it entirely and just acknowledge the reality of biological sex. Wear what you want, be as traditionally "masculine" or "feminine" as you want to be, like the colors you like, play with the toys you like - but know that biological sex is real, and that's what matters in things like sports, safe single-sex spaces, and language.

[@neonwired4978]

nobody is claiming it isn't real, why are single-sex spaces necessary and why is what genitals you are born with relevant to language or sport?

[@dominiqueubersfeld2282]

This is not only irrational ideas. This is a religion that masquerades as science.

[@TheOmnitom]

Fact

[@neonwired4978]

no, no it isn't

[@valbonney2575]

Great discussion, thank you! Two things I took from this (having already heard much of the discourse subject matter elsewhere), are: 1 - "an inner feeling that no-one else can verify" (Stock) is spot on! Any man can 'self-identify', put on a dress and some lipstick (or not!), and enter women's spaces just because he says he "feels" as if he is actually a woman! ANY man ... including predators, perverts, r*pists, 'pdf files', groo-mers, violent mysoginists, etc. 2 - "Being trans-racial is more plausible than being transsexual" (Dawkins, paraphrased). Considering the level of inter-racial marriage and procreation, it is true that race is somewhat on a spectrum, while sex is not (discounting genuine cases of DSD), and racial 'identity' is therefore something that can be variable. As someone recently said, "If I excavated your remains and checked your DNA, I couldn't tell what race you were, but I would immediately know what sex you were."

[@joshdm]

How does anyone know what it feels like to be something else? I can only feel what it like is to be me. I can tell how others are feeling in a general sense, but to actually feel like being a x if I am not x doesn't make sense to me.

[@cyclicozone2072]

Exactly

[@christinadodd5780]

I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on KZbin or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening. If not, at least read about WPATH files and Cass report.

[@mv8908]

@@christinadodd5780 chill with your transphobia

[@christinadodd5780]

@mv8908 uh, phobia means "intense or irrational fear of something." I don't fear trans people at all 😄 but I do fear kids being indoctrinated into believing they're trans and their bodies being messed up by hormones they dont need or their bodies being mutilated. Did you know in the last few years there's been a 4000% increase in teen girls becoming trans boys? Why is there such an increase in teen girls, and why aren't we then seeing a lot of adult women become tran men? Why is this only happening in Western countries? Did you know kids can get started on puberty blockers or hormones after one Dr's appt? Feminine boys are being told they are trans women. Tomboys are being told they're trans boys. It's more appropriate to be trans than be gay or a lesbian. How sad. I believe there's legit trans people, but I believe most have been indoctrinated, are gay, or have autogynephilia. I care about the kids.

[@mothball5425]

​@@mv8908 I menstruated for 40 years. Can a biological male give me a description of how that feels please? How I felt the day it started? Or how it feels when it stops?

[@ronaldkable]

I'm a gay man and have never fallen for the alphabet soup ideology. The human mind and human culture is powerful, but we are all in and of Nature

[@TonyYouens]

Great to hear a rational discussion on an increasingly irrational subject. I always enjoy listening to Kathleen Stock and of course Helen Joyce. A further shout out to Richard Dawkins. So many sceptics simply won’t speak out against this nonsense.

[@andretorres8452]

I’ve noticed that too.

[@JohnnyCameo]

“We have to protect women and girls in places where they undress and sleep”. Hands up anyone who would ever have predicted this could be seen as a controversial opinion? This is an excellent discussion involving two well-informed and articulate individuals with whom I happen to largely agree. I would genuinely be interested in seeing such a similar, cordial, well-informed discussion by people on the “other” side. Not ranting and polemic but fact-based arguments. Does such a thing exist?

[@noah1502]

I love Kathleen Stock!! Big fan of her writing and her way to speak her mind without fear for hurting the feelings of believers.

[@domm6812]

That quote from Judith butler was the most pompous, needlessly fancy statement I think I've ever seen from one of these deluded people. It screams "I'm better than you, because I am more morally pure, and I can put a lot of syllables in my words!"

[@BadgerBotherer1]

Much of this garbage is really all about narcissism, which seems to be increasing exponentially.

[@Will140f]

To be fair to Butler, she did not in her earliest writings ever say that one can choose their sex, but simply that one can “perform” whatever gender they choose regardless (eg drag queens) and even back then her writing was obtuse and ridiculous, even if her positions were much more tenable

[@rigilchrist]

Philosophers like Kathleen Stock are deserving of more respect in society. They spend their lives thinking about difficult ideas and ought to be consulted when a new fad arrives.

[@RC-qf3mp]

She’s the exception, not the rule. Today’s academic philosophers are too cowardly to stand up WITH her. They’ve seen her get vilified and ‘canceled’ and so they go along with the Gestapo rules of the Woke Mob, even though almost all academic philosophers over the age of 40 know the trans ideology is, technically, incoherent (doesn’t rise to the level of ‘falsity’ even). But the system churns out liberal woke PhDs and the admins and DEI of universities makes it impossible for philosophers to tell the truth about free speech and defend rationality. The overwhelming majority are simply traitors to philosophy itself for not being outspoken as Stock has been. She’s exceptional.

[@Celestina0]

@@RC-qf3mp "almost all academic philosophers over the age of 40 know the trans ideology is, technically, incoherent" source?

[@RC-qf3mp]

@@Celestina0 somebody is in academic philosophy. The more important question, that a philosopher would actually ask, is - what’s the argument that shows T ideology to be incoherent? You didn’t ask the obvious question, so but I’ll answer it anyway. 1) the ideology claims that sex and gender are different, like apples to oranges, but then also relies on the idea that sex can ‘align with’ gender or ‘not align with’ gender. Makes no sense what ‘align with’ could be. What’s actually going on is that ‘gender identity’ is just a hodgepodge of beliefs and desires. Beliefs can be true or false, and desires can be fulfilled or frustrated. And so somebody with gender dysphoria just has a combination of false beliefs and frustrated desires regarding their bodily sex (i.e. being male but wanting to be female and/or believing to be ‘really’ female, trapped in a male body). Furthermore, the ideology requires a nonsensical essentialism about ‘gender’ that is also circular (so it’s incoherent in two ways): i.e. that a woman is whatever identifies as a woman. This definition would get you an ‘error’ message in a basic Excel program. Nonsense. Incoherent. And this gender, so conceived, is both essential and yet also a social construct! Nonsense again. Incoherent. Even Slavoj Zizek, a far left ‘philosopher’ (loosely construed), acknowledges the fundamental contradiction of the ideology as advocating for the idea of ‘gender’ as being completely essentialist while also being completely anti-essentialist - socially constructed. Nonsense. Academic philosophers know the ideology is complete nonsense, but it’s very low-level lightweight to refute it and debunk. And the prize you get for showing how obviously nonsensical it is is that you get pilloried, abused, threatened, fired and cancelled like Kathleen Stock. So most academic philosophers do not go near this issue with a ten foot pole and are just waiting for this idiotic cultural fad to pass - like flat-earth, creationism, Marxism, etc.

[@Celestina0]

@@RC-qf3mp a lot of words but no answer to my question.

[@RC-qf3mp]

@@Celestina0 i answered the question in the first sentence - the source of the claim, which is what you asked, is “somebody in academic philosophy”. It’s well known. About 95%+ of academic philosophers over the age 40 in analytical philosophy departments (real philosophy that is named “Philosophy” and not ‘gender studies’ or ‘comp lit’) know gender ideology to be incoherent, not even false. A theory can’t possibly be true if it contradicts itself. But this is too lightweight to deal with philosophically. It’s not philosophy, it’s activism, and the goal of the activism isn’t to rationally persuade, but to bully people. So there’s no point in trying to rationally persuade a group of people who want to bully and cancel all dissent. So academic philosophers who want to go on with their lives and not get harassed just avoid the toxic gender crowd like the plague + covid times 1000. There have been plenty of academic philosophers and even high school teachers who lean towards philosophy who have refused the pronoun nonsense, gotten fired, gone to court, and WON six-figures in lawsuits. Look it up. That’s what real academic philosophers think of the gender religion.

[@baronesswithabrush1991]

'Cult-like Insanity' perfectly describes the Trans positions...

[@BrotherAlpha]

We know what the biological mechanisms are. Intersex people exist.

[@cyclicozone2072]

@@BrotherAlpha Intersex people are either male or female dingus. Primary organs determine sex, not secondary traits. Tell me you’re not a biologist without telling me you’re not a biologist 😂

[@calumlambert]

@baronesswithabrush1991 no. It doesn't. You just spend too much time in these confirmation circle jerks. Actually read about medical science when it comes to sex, it's development, the actions and effects of hormones, cross hormones, the relation between intersex and gender. Instead of throwing buzz words around like cult like and ideology at a small minority of people. Why don't you actually just listen to them? How do you expect to learn about 'trans positions' from people who refuse to even talk and listen to them? To people who have no first hand or medical experience in the field. Dont pretend in anyway that you are some kind of intelligent person when you comment in this absolute mess of confirmation bias and when someone points out all the science that makes you wrong like the literal bimodality of sex have the decency to stop calling trans people a cult. Do you honestly believe you are being a good person here? Really?

[@trip83]

Pure logic. It's very important we campaign to end this madness and rampant child abuse.

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

in what way is it pure logic?

[@ShawarMoni]

​@@KickRocks-me7hh xx, xy

[@MaxFoster-ni3op]

@@KickRocks-me7hh In what way is it not?

[@Arkinals]

Spock, you're half or full Vulcan?

[@unemployablegraduate]

I’m a male, and I’m 5 feet 4 inches tall. Now, I’m not happy about this, and I often think that some aspects of my life would be easier if I were, say, 6 feet tall instead. Now imagine if I said to you, ‘from now on, I am six feet tall. Why? Because, inside, I feel six feet tall. That’s the true me. So from now on, I demand that you refer to me as being tall. Furthermore, I don’t want you to ‘pretend’ that I’m six feet tall. I want you to actually alter your thinking and perception of me and, ultimately, truly believe that I’m six feet tall, even if all the evidence supplied to you by your retina, optic nerve and the V4 region of your brain informs you that I might be 5 feet four.’

[@OmegaGrunt]

You can get surgeries or other treatments/apparel that make you taller though, and therapy around body dysmorphia has been largely more successful than trying to correct gender dysphoria with therapy alone. If you told me you were sensitive about your height and I immediately responded with "Too bad, biological reality, you are short and always will be, people will dig up your bones and say 'wow this guy was short'.", I am in-fact being an asshole and while I am "correct", it doesn't excuse that behavior. It also ignores that people are commonly mis-gendered anyways because gender expression isn't binary, some people look more masculine, or feminine, or entirely androgynous and it isn't rude of them to politely correct others when the wrong pronouns are used. It's just as impolite and irrational to say "No sir, all the evidence supplied to me by my retina, optic nerve, and V4 region of my brain informs me that you're a guy, even though you were born a girl and never transitioned, so I'll be using He/Him for you".

[@kateamanak]

@@OmegaGruntConsidering people's healthy sense perception rude and impolite is a marker of delusional thinking. You're promoting lying as virtue and truth as vice. Do you even hear yourself? Did you ever stop to think that promoting delusion for the sake of politeness might have unpredictable negative consequences for society as a whole (eg.: women lose their spaces)? There is only one height surgery and it is incredibly expensive and violating to your body, it doesn't even guarantee you'll regain full movement and autonomy as the natural skeleton and takes months if not years to recover from. Do you think it's polite to tell somebody else this risky painful surgery is better for them than who they naturally are? Also. it's not accessible to all short people living in this world, so are you only supporting rich people who can afford it? Moreover, endorsing therapy means you believe there's something inherently wrong with a 5"4 dude and he really needs to remedy it, so you're pathologizing shortness. I think this is incredibly more impolite, rude, and more of an asshole move than just otherwise being okay with reality, seeing it for what it is, and sympathizing with him. It also is better for him to be okay with it versus be delusional and manipulate and force you into "supporting" his "remedy", and you force yourself to betray your sense of reality just to feed his ego.

[@urbansetter1]

Thats a perfect analogy

[@benb6527]

Hey there! I’m also 5’4”! Solidarity! Your comment is spot on.

[@benb6527]

Bro, no. As 5”4’ I will never experience what it is like to experience being a 6’0” man. Even after surgeries and things I would still not look exactly like a 6’0” man, and moreover I would not have the psychology of such a man. You can’t just extirpate all of your experiences in the social world.

[@cosmickilroy]

Wonderful interview and you do make great points! I especially like the one comparison to race and how race is more of a spectrum than sex. The fetish point is very important and needs to be addressed

[@scottswenson9920]

The sound is terrible. It sounds like you are at the end of a tunnel and underwater at the same time. Please consult with someone who has expertise with audio production. Thanks Richard.

[@dhruvshetty6190]

Additionally didnt like the choice of using an all white background its quite off-putting..

[@clorofilaazul]

I think this is what happened: her microphone was unplugged, and it what Richard's microphone capturing everything. Because he's voice is a little bit more "clear". Perhaps both microphones were off, and the audio was captures by the camera's microphone.

[@Martin-jd3oc]

I wish whoever helps Prof Dawkins with the technology for this could set up the sound properly. These conversations are so important and deserve good sound.

[@jaaan2914]

Amen to this! The mics look fine, so strange that it sounds so weird. But there seems to have been a lot of background noise. I'm guessing it was removed and the filter that was used left the voices sounding as if under water.

[@fromchomleystreet]

Is it really true that MOST trans identified males are heterosexual? It could barely escape the attention of anyone who has followed this debate that the most aggressive and vicious extremes of the trans rights movement do often seem to be dominated by gynophilic transwomen (AKA straight men), but that doesn’t necessarily mean they outnumber androphillic transwomen overall (who typically tend to transition earlier and pass more easily)

[@connor5669]

Autogynephilia is pseudoscience.

[@littlecatfeet9064]

Numbers can vary across different countries, but the estimate is that 80-90% of trans identifying males are heterosexual cross-dressers. The activists within this cohort are the most aggressive about having the legal right to enter women’s sports and spaces, redefining the word lesbian to include them, and the “rights” of children to medically transition. See Assistant Secretary for Health in the Biden Government, Rachel Levine, for the latter issue. He wants no age limit on social and medical transition. The irony of course is that these heterosexual men rarely transition themselves. They want to keep their “lady diques” or “shenises”. Edit; homosexual trans identifying men used to be the majority at least until this century.

[@christinadodd5780]

I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on KZbin or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening.

[@ribbonsofnight]

Hard to say. Most will pretend not to understand what heterosexual means and some will claim to be lesbians.

[@mothball5425]

As I understand it, many / most tw of all ages are female attracted (since bio males). There are a lot of issues around lesbians being given hell for not wanting non-op tw as partners. Lesbian only (ie only bio females) events get invaded by tw and their allies, and Pride is on verge of splitting over it (a lesbian group got banned from Brighton Pride this year). Dreadful bullying and misogyny.

[@dogzero1]

Notice the complete lack of these trans activists commenting in a sensible and intelligent way on here.

[@ApacheMagic]

I noticed!

[@Gcarse]

The only thing they can say is the usual mindless chant: "Trans women are women, trans women are women!"

[@jezdavis1865]

…anywhere.

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

Try me.

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

@@281992pdr I haven't reported any of your comments

[@princeardalan]

Dear Prof. Dawkins, unfortunately the sound quality of your podcasts are often low. I recommend hiring a sound engineer or a music producer to ensure the recordings are of high quality. In this instance, I am guessing the microphones were too far from the mouths, but I could be wrong.

[@Casseopeia777]

The pure, clear light of reason. It was a delight to watch this.

[@lewreed1871]

Always good to hear Kathleen Stock. Thanks!

[@tchocky71]

I keep heaving sighs of relief from hearing the sense and science in this conversation. I am so grateful for it.

[@suetownsend1656]

A sane, rational and convivial conversation between two fully formed intellects. A pleasure to listen to, and an example of the internet at its best.

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

its dishonest. dawkins to stick to religion

[@jonjonson-dd7gq]

@@KickRocks-me7hhHow is it dishonest?

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

@@jonjonson-dd7gq saying there are only two genders

[@jonjonson-dd7gq]

@@KickRocks-me7hh That’s correct. Sex is binary. They’re using gender as a synonym.

[@281992pdr]

@@KickRocks-me7hh One again. 99.98% of people are born male or female. Even in remote indigenous communities where a pregnant woman goes alone to a private place and gives birth there is no professional there to "assign" birth. The child has 99.98% chance of being born male or female. That is what happens. Everywhere, about .02% of people are born intersex and even some of these have male or female gametes. Stats 101 will tell you that on any graph .02% are outliers. Outliers do not form a continuum, spectrum or trend. When men claim to be women, and vice versa, it is a preference, currently a fad, and some 90% of blokes who participate in the delusion choose - despite in most western countries NHS/Medicare available funding for surgery, in many militaries surgery being free and private insurance plans covering it - to keep their male tackle. Sex is obviously binary, gender is the confected, stereotypical and superficial traits that many women fought so hard to dismantle. Now the reference points for all transgender people and even straight trans activists and ideologues are male and female.

[@mavenhardwich1938]

Well I am a trans man, and I don’t enforce this “ideology”, or even consider it an “ideology”. I also don’t believe in this rhetoric that insues this belief of the gender identity being akin to a spiritual alignment. I don’t go on looking in the mirror and put on what I consider masculine just for the sake of copying what masculinity seems to me, which further alienates the progress we have made to forgo these stereotypes. I am trans because I’ve never been more comfortable being regarded as male, regardless of how my masculinity presents. I’m not trans because i didn’t like being seen as “feminine”, I am trans because being regarded as female, whatever that entails, made me highly uncomfortable and frankly depressed. It wasn’t because I was trying to become what society expects of men or trying to escape what society deems of women; I am trans because this just makes more sense to how I function and how I view myself. That being said, I am not trying to shove this experience down anyone’s throat or even make them call me something they don’t want to. Most of us, us being trans people, are quite scared of the implications of what being trans means. Some may be doing it for wrong reasons, and they may be doing it in a way that promotes harmful stereotypes, but most of us are just navigating what being ourselves mean. Of course, I am not dissuading the fact that people are causing harm and inciting this sort of public bashing and humiliation that is borderline barbaric. That being said, I found this conversation highly intriguing considering my view point and really worth watching. :)

[@thenorthowl2033]

It’s not the gender identity itself that makes it look like spiritual zeal, it’s the closed down no questions allowed cancelling of any questions and personal attacks to form a “us” vs “them”.

[@karagi101]

You’re not the problem. The problem is the people that shut down all discussions and debates that challenge their worldviews. And it’s not just regarding Trans issues. It spans across many subjects.

[@mavenhardwich1938]

@@karagi101 Unfortunately, I have to agree. It’s truly sad that simple conversations are politicized and turned into things that are agressive and assertive; complicated topics must be discussed and shared with peers in order to further along our understanding. We need more conversations like these without it being lit aflame and torn apart in order of political correctness, or however you want to call it.

[@noahwurtz9921]

@@mavenhardwich1938thank you for at least being honest. We need the rest of your group to do the same thing. What you’ve described is precisely an ideology. Its a subjective psychological experience / belief that comes either from trauma or social beliefs passed down through social interactions. In other words, it is a learned trait, wether consciously or unconsciously. That is precisely why your ideology is extremely destructive and dangerous. It’s as rational as religion, the difference is in the degree of psychological harm it does on a large scale and at the personal level of the individual. Just like religion, its the enemy of science and all the progress we’ve made in these past few centuries in the field of psychology, philosophy, medicine. But religion doesn’t teach you take drugs and become a walking pharmaceutical industry for the rest of your life. To chop off certain body parts in surgical procedures. To develop severe psychological problems. (Though certain religions certainly have done so in the past, modern day big religions don’t though you could argue that islam does reinforce some of these points indirectly). It leads normal males and females to develop beliefs and deep psychological problems in regards to their biological sex.

[@noahwurtz9921]

@@mavenhardwich1938the fact that i even have to precise « biological » sex, is crazy 😝. Shows how much this perverse ideology has spread throughout the western culture.

[@steveb3881]

We need more of this. An excellent, informed and nuanced conversation.

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

hardly

[@PhillipJohnsonphiljo]

@@KickRocks-me7hh It's okay to be a cult mouthpiece. I'm sure most of your relationships are conditional on such a grift.

[@dennisd3258]

@@KickRocks-me7hh “people don’t agree w me, BADDDDD”

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

@dennisd3258 I only agree with things that have high probability of being true.

[@kimgibbs8143]

So glad to have watched this. Having worked with endocrinologists for over 18 years and attended many lectures on IDENTITY and transgender this talk reminded me of a conversation I had 10 years ago. A world wide renowned Professor who was at one of these lectures and I discussed the “explosion” in people identifying as trans or of the other 120 things recognised at that time - (one being a penguin) - and where this had come from. His answer was as I this “Social media and being different was a fashion statement, one which unfortunately led to the patients who truly needed endocrinologists time and support having to wait on the massive waiting lists. Never mind a teacher who I know who has to keep the counsel of a pupil identifying as a fox. Parents not even aware. To politically correct these days to protect the minority

[@normagrimstad8869]

I know a few trans people, three were male to female, and one was female to male. I was shocked to learn that three of them were heterosexual, and after transition were part of the gay community. How is this explained? I also find words like binary, and they/them pronouns confusing, and I am a queer person! I’ve been part of the gay community for thirty years and now. Lately I find younger queer people defriending me or shunning me because I am not, I guess, queer enough!

[@katieandnick4113]

Sexual orientation is far more connected to identity than most people realize or would like to acknowledge. I personally don’t believe that anyone is totally heterosexual or homosexual, and in fact, I think all humans are naturally pretty bisexual, and that we become hetero or homosexual due to our experiences(nurture, not nature). The vast majority of people who have studied human sexuality have been heterosexual men, who of course are biased towards believing that they are the default/normal types of humans. I can think of a few advantages to natural bisexuality in all humans. The biggest one is population control, but also, prevention of young, impulsive male sexual predation on young women and children. And then of course, having sex is a wonderful and effective way of deepening social bonds, and because humans are so interconnected and interdependent, deep social bonds have always been imperative to survival, though much more before the advent of agriculture than after.

[@Reet64]

Glad to hear the two of you in conversation.

[@ronparsons8786]

A tiny percentage of the population was undertreated and mistreated for a long time. But this crusade (which has turned into a fad fueled by social media and many performative "allies" in various medical and political groups and other institutions) Is obviously harmful and needs correcting

[@Paradisusinfernalis6815]

As little girl I rarely played with dolls - just to think what would have happened to me in a ‘modern woke kindergarten “ is horrifying:) so if a man has plump lips and rosy cheeks and long eyelashes then it is a womanhood issue:) I saw some interviews of transitioned people who regret - and in all cases they were man who were socially awkward had some undiagnosed psychological problems, were unpopular as young people, and then for some reason they never actually can articulate decided to become women … it is so sad and and horrible that in those clinics they simple jump quickly onto surgery and blockers path without even providing a psychological help and supervision. It is a true crime

[@auroravanessa221]

Intelectually stimulating conversation between two distinguished, humble and highly intelligent people. Thank you both for continuing to speak up about these rancid delusions against the brainwashing of naive and vulnerable people! Thank you infinitely 🎓🖤

[@Foxfire-chan]

Sad that this video won’t even show up on my watch history timeline unless I click on it. Gotta love KZbin for trying to silence two people having a lovely respectful intellectual conversation. Keep doing your hard work!

[@christinadodd5780]

I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on KZbin or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening. If not, at least read about WPATH files and Cass report.

[@jons9721]

Since when do scientists care about feelings when being scientists?. Anyone can care about feelings but not when you are being a professional scientist

[@LeCerfMalade]

The problem with the cluster definition of sex is it's the one postmodernists and queer theorists use to slip straight into "sex doesn't really exist as such, we might as well divide people according to the shape of their earlobes". That said, I'm all for a pragmatic and humane approach to DSDs.

[@ambientjohnny]

What have DSDs got to do with claims of being "trans"? Probably more than 99% of people claiming to be "trans" have no form of DSD whatsoever. And, everyone with a DSD is still either male or female just like everyone else anyway.

[@cyclicozone2072]

@@ambientjohnny Exactly this^ I’m entirely sick of trans activists exploiting people affected by DSDs to push their false ideology.

[@germantoenglish898]

Wow! Students who protest against your presence but are unwilling to hear your viewpoint. Sounds like Hamas.

[@Jamiep84]

This "Do you want a living daughter or a dead son?" mantra is perhaps intended to provide legal protection to the doctors and surgeons tasked with implementing trans pathways. In order to justify the disregarding of things such as the patient's inability to consent (due to being too young), and the removal of perfectly healthy body parts, the spectre of a crisis condition had to be created high up in the medical hierarchy. Doctors then have the defence of "We were just following the established medical guidelines we were given".

[@christinadodd5780]

I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on KZbin or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans issue and what it's doing. It's neutral on trans. People need to be informed of what's happening. Their last episode was eye-opening! If not, at least read about WPATH files and Cass report.

[@joso7228]

As many suicides before Transition as after so its not an argument.

[@petercampbell8085]

Have you heard of Dr John Money, of not look him up . And also the book The boy who was raised as a girl. This story horrifying , in the end most of the family committed suicide mainly because John money.

[@tonycairns6728]

I think he coined the term 'Gender Identity' 🙄

[@christinadodd5780]

Yes, it was Dr. John Money who started the gender meaning for humans. I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on KZbin or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening.

[@berthavazquez3405]

Book is about David Reimer by John Colapinto, As Nature Made Him

[@radubradu]

Imagine a world where these two were the heroes of most people

[@operamad]

"Gentle courage" is such an accurate description of Kathleen Stock.

[@fifidownunda]

Wonderful conversation - shame about the audio quality. Thank you to both of you!

[@Amy-ky5wr]

Two of my favourite people. Champions of clarity and rationality.

[@jacksonstone246]

Gender doesn’t mean if you feel like a Tom boy or feel like a flamboyant man it’s the difference between a stick and a triangle for purposes of description and safety. Language can’t be abused by a minority against the majority so easily.

[@pegm5937]

Apparently it can because it has been.

[@louisalexandre33]

Language transformation is not a question of majority but of emerging common usage. Btw Man is not the definition of male, or female is not the definition of woman, correlation doesn't imply causation. A cow is a female but isn't a woman. And, for exemple, being manly is a social feeling and an imitation of cultural displays, weeping was concidered masculine for medieval knights, but today it is supposed to be feminine and it even modified depiction of what is masculine in the medieval era.

[@justinludeman8424]

​@@louisalexandre33a man is an adult male homo sapien, a woman is an adult female homo sapien. These terms are reflective of immutable biological characteristics. Gender is an idea about social constructivism of normative sex-based roles. The words 'personality' and 'choice' best describe the dialectical inversion of gender in extant queer parlance. Ultimately, gender is meaningless due to the inherent revisionist and linguistic plasticity of Queer Academia ( an oxymoron if ever there was). Queer itself is reflexive Neo-Marxist rejection of the normal, which is say overwhelming majority description. A man cannot become a woman no matter how 'performatively' adherent.

[@inkoftheworld]

It can if the "minority" is pretty loud and powerful and has lots of money. We got billionaires like the Pritzkers backing this trans movement. It's quite ironic because I see all sorts of people calling the proponents of it communists, meanwhile, it's the most capitalist thing ever. From top to bottom.

[@sonoftheway3528]

@@louisalexandre33 Yes but, the definition of man is male human. Just as a male cattle is a bull. The gender religion is trying to alter that but, they can't give a definition of man or woman. If you want to change the meaning of words then at least offer a new definition.

[@Mr.Clingclong]

Two brilliant minds, very much enjoyed this conversation. Let down a little by poor sound quality.

[@jeffwatkins1022]

I came up with the phrase "loquacious obfuscation" to sort of ironically describe Judith Butler's writing style to other people, I think it sums up her work nicely.

[@uriituw]

Two voices of reason. 🤘

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

how so?

[@uriituw]

@@KickRocks-me7hh Listen to what they say.

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

@uriituw why dont you tell me. You have no clue do you.

[@3brenm]

​@KickRocks-me7hh you're not saying anything

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

@@3brenm I'm asking why you think they are the voice of reason. You don't seem to know.

[@prof.jezebel]

I don't understand how Butler became totalized and hierarchized to this extent. When I studied feminisms/postmodernisms in the 90s, the idea was that these theories were to be understood as in conversation with one another and interested in generating new questions, ways of thinking, not new dogmas. The idea was that meaning is constructed within master narratives, historical contexts and apparatuses of power, so keeping meaning fluid, self-critical, non-hierarchal, contextualized, would avoid issues of coercion, dominance, etc. You didn't want to be accused of totalizing, hierarchizing, ahistoricism, essentialism, binary thinking, etc. The new gender theory can be accused of all these. So postmodern/feminist theories are not the cause of the new trans ideology, bastardization of these theories is. As Butler posited that gender was performance, Haraway posed deconstructing gender and sex altogether by becoming non-binary cyborgs, the French psychoanalytical feminists called for the jouissance of inventing a female language by writing from the female body, de Lauretis told us all (men too) to call ourselves lesbians, etc. This convo was generative of new tools, new questions, new landscapes to think in, but split theory from practice. What has happened to how these theories are taught that Butler dominates and has become dogma put into practice? I agree with Stock that flipping our construct of gender to one where the social performance (femininity/masculinity) determines sex (manhood, womanhood) is regressive/patriarchal, and that the notion of inherent gender identity is essentialist and expressive of Cartesian dualism. I'm not entirely convinced that this means trans identity is a "fiction" rather than a "construct". Would love to hear her discuss this with a non-Butlerian expert on Pomo feminist theory.

[@littlecatfeet9064]

You’re giving me flashbacks to attempting to study these things in the 90s 😅. You’ve presented the authors well, much better than I can. Maybe the answer is simply that most people trying to explain Gender Trouble in a sound bite said “it’s about gender as a performance” and most people could relate to that because we’ve all played up or downplayed sex stereotypes at some point. The other might be that Judith Butler was happy to be interviewed on her philosophy and weigh in on the trans debate. She’s recently spoken about her disdain for lesbians’ aversion to penises, so she’s at least talking in prescriptive ways. Like Camille Paglia, she seems to enjoy the spotlight. Many don’t. If the author herself is saying “this is how you should interpret my work” then people will do so.

[@baronesswithabrush1991]

@@littlecatfeet9064 Good point, I thought about Paglia too: Spotlight seeker for sure. I can even listen to Butler.

[@jakobole]

And it's crazy to think that the 50's puritanism came back in this form...

[@christinadodd5780]

I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on KZbin or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening. If not, at least read about WPATH files and Cass report.

[@danielmabella]

We urgently need to ungender the question "Know thyself," thus "Who am I as a person?"

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

gender is a hardwired. its also a spectrum.

[@merylmel]

​@@KickRocks-me7hhhow can you watch this and then say gender is a spectrum?

[@ambientjohnny]

@@KickRocks-me7hh Explain the criteria for "woman gender". How do women supposedly feel or behave? What feelings do women have that men cannot etc. Should be easy for you seeing as you are an expert.

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

@ambientjohnny gender is an infinite spectrum. It's a neurological process. I'm no expert, where did you get that idea? Strange thing to say. Gender is a very profound part of who you are. It's a fundamental evolutionary trait. How you define man or woman depends on the context. People have many feelings and thoughts in common, but gender is hardwired, as opposed to a learnt behaviour.

[@ambientjohnny]

@@KickRocks-me7hh So you believe in something you cannot even provide ONE defining trait of? What do you even believe if you can't explain any specific details about it? How can you possibly understand and believe something if you can't even begin to explain it to other people beyond vague entirely unspecific language. Do you realise you have literally not explained what being a man or a woman is according to you in any way at all. Why is it so hard? You are out here trying to lecture other people about being wrong - ok, well provide an actual counter-definition then. Why is it always so hard for you lot to actually define the terms you feel society must accept? Why can't you just answer the question? Since all of you believe there is some way a male can "feel like a woman", "behave like a woman" etc. - how can it be so hard to articulate what that means???

[@rosablume4346]

I find it really tragic that one reason for „trans kids“ is that parents are disappointed in their offsprings and feel the need to „fix“ them

[@stumccabe]

My observations lead me to believe this sort of "moulding" of a child to satisfy the psychological compulsion of a parent, is usually done by the mother. I believe it is a form of Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy, colloquially called "Transhausen"!

[@Amy-tl2xe]

I would love some advice on how to deal with this issue as it concerns children. I live in a liberal community in the northeast US and in our local grammar school, they are teaching children that "you cannot assume gender," they are making kids put pronouns on their nametags, and there are several kids in the school who "transitioned" over the summer - much to the confusion of the kids in my family. How do we approach this issue with them?

[@lewissmith350]

How about telling them to watch a video from Dawkins on this. To give them alternative view point.

[@Amy-tl2xe]

@@lewissmith350 They are only 8,10 and 12.....

[@lewissmith350]

​@@Amy-tl2xeWhat with social media, hopefully these kids come across gender critical awareness as they get older. But yes it's a shame, as my niece was taught gender idealogy ideas at school when she was under ten, and we were shocked. But then a year later her friend who likely also had the same lesson, was abused by a biological male identifying as a female, so now and both are still young, both dont really trust gender idealogy. It's odd as it's like 1984, when parsons was arrested as his kid has been brainwashed into newspeak idealogy, and even more oddly, the gender idealougues claim it's not being taught in schools. Well, I say as long as we have Dawkins and Rowling and others stating the truth that biological sex exists, then by the time their adults, they will be able to see with their own senses, and evolutionary created senses that males and females exist,

[@platanous]

That's crazy.

[@L_Martin]

Whoever is responsible for the audio on Richard Dawkins' channel, what on earth went wrong here?? I can't imagine he lacks resources to hire decent people who can hook up the mics correctly.

[@johnthekeane]

It's not often that Richard Dawkins is lost for words! Excellent talk, thank you.

[@ponyboygarfunkel1675]

"Trans" Ideology is so outlandish, so counter-intuitive, I have lost hope in my species. I am now a sixty-eight year old curmudgeon. C'est la vie.

[@pcbacklash_3261]

Sixty-three years here, and I have similar feelings. It seems as if there's never an end game with idealogues, on either side. It simply goes from one extreme idea to the next, even more extreme idea, until some external force stops them.

[@johnjean8743]

No... you're a rational, thinking human.

[@ihatespam2]

Most of science is counter intuitive, so what? I would think the murder rate, the wars, the serial killers, the corporate theft, corruption, should be what pushed you over, not sexual vagueness.

[@281992pdr]

A smidgen older and I believe we are living in uniquely stupid times.

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

theres no such thing as gender ideaology.

[@celiabarrett2107]

Thiswas great, especially the last 10 minutea or so, discussing fairness in women's sport. She said the truth, if you go through male puberty, the advantages can't be undone. Thank you Kathleen.

[@Linda-pg3so]

Thank you for these wise words, both of you. Such a refreshing exchange of thoughts in this ‘trans’ insanity. 🥰👏🏻🇦🇺

[@MitchellDormont]

A fascinating, and thought provoking conversation thanks.

[@Rocko130185]

I'm amazed you talked about the modern usage of gender without bringing up John Money. A lot of the modern ideas stem from him. He was a sick child abuser btw.

[@TheOmnitom]

KZbin would probably have an algorithmic breakdown xD. KZbin can't handle the truth

[@richardmurphy4648]

I am an anthropologist & historian, not a philosopher or a biologist. However, I see no flaws in the argument set out here. The current culture of; I say it is so, therefore it is, borders on insanity. I strongly suspect if penis removal was mandatory much of the problems that abound in this area would be solved. Clearly it would not solve all, the Nazis implemented similar policies with pedophiles and found it failed, it merely stopped penetrative sex. This said, arguably better than the current trend towards increased risk to women.

[@christinadodd5780]

I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on KZbin or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening. If not, at least read about WPATH files and Cass report.

[@ibrahimanan1874]

it means that civilization is in decline .. Yesterday I tried to watch a seminar in which the academic explains what is the evidence that a woman is a woman and that it is not enough to say that she is female because the academic says that he has a female cat but she is not a woman ..Where is the beauty of women, the beauty of men .. and the beauty of a man's love for a woman and a woman's love for a man, the beauty of humanity, do I have to describe the sea or give it a definition or else .. there is no evidence that there is a sea?

[@井上彩-l3r]

I think this recording was done in a rented studio in New York. (The interview with John McWhorter was also done in a similar room.) It can't be helped that the sound quality is not very good. Above all, the interview itself is valuable. 🎙🎙🎶✨✨

[@colinellicott9737]

No one owns their pronouns, or has the right to demand others use certain pronouns for them. Pronouns belong to the user not the receiver of the pronoun. Freedom of speech.

[@christinadodd5780]

I suggest watching "Gender-A Wider Lens" on KZbin or listening to their podcast. A lot of great videos about this trans epidemic and what it's doing. People need to be informed of what's happening. If not, at least read about WPATH files and Cass report.

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

does that mean i dont have to you he?

[@Uhcip]

Pretty sure most people just have a preference and you're more likely just projecting this caricature of people you've never really had a conversation with. If your worldview is formed via youtube videos or echo chambers then you're going to end up looking down on other human beings for no good reason.

[@colinellicott9737]

@@Uhcip A lot of assumptions in such a short missive.

[@colinellicott9737]

@@christinadodd5780 Agreed, and done.

[@281992pdr]

Transgenderism is an ideology because it is a system of ideas and ideals, especially one which forms the basis of economic or political theory and policy. Here are some elements: One e.g of a trans idea - anthropology students are being taught the idea that skeletons can not be identified as male or female, their sex can only be 'estimated', one e.g. of a trans ideal - that sex and gender used synonomously are on a spectrum, e.g. of a trans economic policy is that all trans cosmetic surgery should be provided on NHS/Medicare (which it pretty much is) no woman patient should be allowed to insist on having a woman doctor to consult with; one e.g. of trans political policy is having legislation changed so that birth history and consequent documentation is altered to suit the preference (called self-id) of the person who claims to be of the other sex. Other e.g.s - The transgender movement has its own flag that it's activists march under and it has organs set up to promote its ideas and ideals - Stonewall etc. It's members are active in shutting down discussion both public and private - e.g. Stock and others (if you want the names of 50+ people who have been fired/had to close their businesses, otherwise lost their livelihoods) because they refused to go along with the ideas and imposed speech of the trans ideology, I can provide that.) What I have just written is real.

[@Gwendolyn-o9e]

Transgenderism is a biological fact that has been co opted by sociologists and philosophers. As soon as it was taken out of the realm of developmental neuroscience and into the realm of social sciences it got transformed into a confused mess.

[@pegm5937]

Does any conversation between two great minds get any better?! (Obligatory mention about my huge girl crush on Kathleen!)

[@justmy2cents652]

Still there with you with the girl crush. 😍😅 She is just so wonderful!

[@simplydbesttt]

(f, 45) I had a very powerful and charismatic father and older brother and of course I've wanted to be a man growing up. so glad it was not an option 35 years ago the level of modern madness is terrifying

[@anthonyd.5516]

Fairy tales used to start with "Once upon a time..." Today, fairy tales begin with "According to experts..."

[@bulldogklaus47]

just spat out my sandwich in a fit of laughter

[@井上彩-l3r]

😅😅😅😅😅

[@uriituw]

That could pass for creationist propaganda.

[@cocobunitacobuni8738]

Or they begin with "My truth is..."

[@andy2950]

According to experts......you have a tumour.?

[@garyphisher7375]

The very idea that a person can change their s-cks is absurd. Any chance of having David Starkey on?

[@petermsiegel573]

Socks?

[@DexterDexter123]

i believe in the freedom and right to change your socks at least once a day.

[@KickRocks-me7hh]

only because your bad at thinking.

[@garyphisher7375]

@@KickRocks-me7hh *You're.

[@garyphisher7375]

@@petermsiegel573 The hal go rythym dee leets my posts if they contain certain words - the Glow baa lists hate uppity people!

[@井上彩-l3r]

8:20 Here is Judith Butler's text read by Professor Richard Dawkins in this video. “This form of theoretical extractivism had to be countered by uncovering specific histories and archives, more accountable narratives, and ways of knowing, produced by those who had for too long constituted the phantasmatic objects of fear, the zones of experiments, the fetishized examples that demonstrated the “validity” of Western epistemologies.” 😓😓😓😓😓

[@barnabycross]

The Puritans seemed so powerful in the 1640s. Now they are back in their box. The same will eventually happen to the new Puritans..once people have seen enough of the Emperors new clothes. Rational thought and free speech will help to accerlate this much needed return to sanity.

[@Drgunzo616]

I firmly believe this is nothing more than a trend for teens in those awkward years. It's the most extreme form of rebellion for them. Puberty can be incredibly confusing especially with social media. A lot of these kids are making decisions that will just make their lives worse. These decisions need to be made by adult minds, not those of confused children.

[@davidhughes8795]

I think that a few decades ago this would have been just another one of those fairly harmless teenage subcultures, like being a Goth or an Emo or whatever. But somewhere along the line, it got twisted into an 'identity' so that it's followers can pretend that they're locked in some sort of righteous civil rights struggle. I'm not sure how it happened exactly, but it feels like it's been deliberately engineered. Kids have never been more neurotic and unhappy than they are now, and it shows.

[@Drgunzo616]

@@davidhughes8795 yeah I'm 47 and had my share of tauma and rebellion, but these kids are exposed to so sorts of crazy ideas. I don't care if you're gay/trans whatever. But it's obvious a lot of this is just for attention.

[@davidhughes8795]

@@Drgunzo616 Yes, I'm 36 and I find it to be utterly incoherent. They seem to really want to believe that we can just 'become' somebody else and that we can identify out of our own bodies.

[@aethellstan]

we have freedom of speech as long as you agree with me...

[@Johannes_Exiguus]

Say whatever you want. Don’t legislate to effectively outlaw someone’s existence

[@evakatz6351]

The GC side focuses mainly on biological sex, but I think the social conditioning process/ experience of being a woman are just as important. The social training starts in babyhood and gives us deeply rooted expectations about how to behave and what our responsibilities are. A man ‘identifying into womanhood’ in adulthood has had none of that, and it’s offensive to minimise how powerful this process is and how formative our experiences as women are.

[@connor5669]

Trans people are socialized as trans. It's called being in the closet. Trans women are not socialized as male

[@littlecatfeet9064]

💯

[@karagi101]

Many of those traits that you think are social training are in fact hereditary. Even in the most egalitarian societies, such as the Scandinavian countries, there persist significant differences (on average) between females and males across a wide range of metrics.

[@littlecatfeet9064]

@@karagi101 And yet in many Asian countries, metrics like enrolment in STEM courses are quite equal.

[@karagi101]

@@littlecatfeet9064 Depends on the specific type of STEM program. Engineering for instance has 30% women in China, 24% in South Korea.