Preston Jacobs Tries to Ruin The Silmarillion for Lord of the Rings YouTuber Men of the West

Check out the Full podcast collaboration we did with Lord of the Rings KZbinr Yoystan from Men of the West on Patreon:
Yoystan's Patreon: / menofthewest
Preston's Patreon: / prestonjacobs
▬ Information ▬
House of the Dragon is an American fantasy drama television series created by George R. R. Martin and Ryan J. Condal for HBO. It is a prequel to the television series Game of Thrones and is based on Martin's 2018 novel Fire & Blood. Set two hundred years before the events of Game of Thrones, the series chronicles the beginning of the end of House Targaryen, the events leading up to the Targaryen civil war, known as the "Dance of the Dragons", and the war itself. The main contenders are Houses Targaryen, Hightower, Stark, Baratheon, Arryn and Velaryon.
The Silmarillion is a collection of mythopoeic stories by the English writer J. R. R. Tolkien, edited and published posthumously by his son Christopher Tolkien in 1977 with assistance from the fantasy author Guy Gavriel Kay. The Silmarillion tells of Eä, a fictional universe that includes the Blessed Realm of Valinor, the once-great region of Beleriand, the sunken island of Númenor, and the continent of Middle-earth, where Tolkien's most popular works-The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings-are set.
▬▬Disclaimer▬▬
All Red Arrows and Circles are placed in thumbnail for comedic and parody purpose. They do not point to or highlight anything in specific and are just there to make fun of other trash and awful KZbinrs who use it to bait people.
#HouseoftheDragon #GameOfThrones #ringsofpower #lordoftherings

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

Check out the Full podcast collaboration we did with Lord of the Rings KZbinr Yoystan from Men of the West on Patreon: Yoystan's Patreon: www.patreon.com/menofthewest Preston's Patreon: www.patreon.com/prestonjacobs

[@Longshanks1690]

This collab is the definition of “a surprise to be sure but a welcome one.”

[@thewatcher2538]

carmine be posting prestons content while preston is on paternity leave

[@lol-hy4mk]

He sounds so optimistic and energetic. Then there is Preston.

[@adrianseguras.9659]

Preston is such a cynical George R.R. Martin

[@harlekingyt7302]

Preston doesn't like creation myths? I would love to see his take on The Elder Scrolls Creation Myth and the Living Gods of Morrowind and All the crazy stuff about Tiber Septim, Wulfharth and Zurin Arctus.

[@Kunumbah1]

The creation myth shit is the worst stuff about Elder scrolls lore and tiber septim himself. When he was conquering Tamriel I wanted to see tactics not bs fantasy nukes.

[@brodofraggins4688]

@@Kunumbah1 tactics suck go play a TTS game

[@ZoomReverseFlash]

TES has schizo continuity, in which an atheist "it was bullshit" version may well coexist with creation myths because lol dragonbreak lol

[@Volkrad]

@@Kunumbah1 Then go read a history book, this genre it's meant for something else

[@harlekingyt7302]

@@ZoomReverseFlash Teslore post Morrowind is mostly shit, but The lore about the Anu and Padomay, Shezarr and Akatosh being the same, the Alessian order, The Nords battles with the orcs and dunmer, Wulfharth and the Living Gods of Morrowind are all interesting and really well done.

[@MenoftheWest]

You'll never ruin them for me Preston, but I appreciate the effort 😏

[@reginaldh2079]

Men Of The West is great. Fantastic collaboration.

[@chemputer]

If I had ANY spare money, I'd gladly support you and Preston, but I'm disabled and am unable to. I love you guys, and it makes me sad that there's content that's locked behind a paywall. It'd be nice if you considered releasing these videos publicly after 6 months or even a year. There's a channel, SubBrief, where he does these hour long briefs on submarines, and for the most part, they are Patreon only, but he has a policy of releasing them for free for everyone on KZbin after 1 year. Give it a thought, my dude. I'm sure I'm not the only poor person that would love to support you guys if I could, but can't, and so has to miss out on great content, which makes me sad.

[@anunnakicrown]

Same, im disabled with 3 kids. All we have for small entertainment is KZbin and all we eat is ramen and egg sandwiches.

[@anunnakicrown]

It would mean the world to us to have more snarky redteamreview especially now that hod is the out and we get screener copies >:3

[@baileyatkinson4436]

Carmines gotta make money too don’t forget

[@charlesjenkins2090]

lol Preston is such philistine. "man i think it would be so much more interesting if these rich stories about other worlds actually were all just lies by political propagandists" this is like Christopher Nolan Joker vibes having some pathological need to show everybody is just like him. And he even says it outright here! What turned him off the Silmarillion at the beginning was the God and Devil and angels/lesser gods stuff because they aren't "like us". What's so sad is this proves Preston would struggle immensely with epics that don't proceed from industrial modernity or from at least early modern Anglo sources because this lack of interest in subjects foreign to his own thoughts apparently turns him off. I suppose it shouldn't be surprising, many a world traveler like Preston has went to far off places to fill the shallowness of their minds and emptiness of their hearts but succeed only in making them backgrounds for the playing out of their own unaffected, immovable subjectivities. Truly a phillistine if there ever was one.

[@amircash]

I feel song is the most important element of tolkien's world. Music and song literally made the world, I think that song is fundamental to the "physics" of that world. So the fact that many movie fans are confused or frustrated by all the songs just disappoints me: song is literally woven into all things in middle earth.

[@ultimateshipper8997]

Magic in Middle-earth is essentially song contest and poetic spells. Nothing like fireballs or the likes.

[@ItsButterBean1020]

@@ultimateshipper8997 We explicitly see this with Finrod vs Sauron, the closest comparison is likely the THUUM from TES

[@brettmuir5679]

Well said. Few understand this. I was watching a smith forging a sword and I asked him if he sang to it while he was shaping it. He looked confused. I asked, "How can it slay a balrog if you don't sing to it?" Bombadil cannot stop singing, and of course Finrod and Sauron's duel... Song is the mode of Middle Earth magic

[@ArcanaEric]

Preston always reminds me of the paranoid it’s Always Sunny conspiracy meme. Like, everything that has the slightest chance of not being what it seems is what he will latch on to. “You’re saying the Silmarillion could all just be bullshit unreliable narrators and that there is no God because Tolkien made in-lore retcon tools for convenience’s sake?” Sometimes things actually are the way that they seem my dude.

[@matthewevans5960]

I don’t think though that really invalidates Preston’s interpretation of the material. I think fantasy fans often have trouble with stepping away from an author’s intentions when analyzing their work, even though that’s how most other literature is read. Preston pointing out inconsistencies and then finding an interpretation for those inconsistencies is just as valid as reading the text at face value.

[@ArcanaEric]

@@matthewevans5960 I think any interpretation is a valid one if argued properly, but I do find that Preston often tends to prefer lending credence to theories that involve more cynical and conspiratorial thinking. And to be fair, in the world of Game of Thrones, there is a lot of reason to think more cynically about historical events, given that GRRM wrote the world specifically to be a mystery. But Tolkien was always pretty damn explicit about what his world and themes represent.

[@psevdhome]

@@matthewevans5960 Preston constantly goes off in random tangents based on a tiny error or inconsistency! That is why we love him! Many of his rants are hilarious and off the wall but often he stumbles onto something real, like the maester conspiracy being against certain Targaryen lines possibly because they are genetically disposed to birthing more dragons.

[@jaga887]

@@matthewevans5960 I am still confused as to what inconsistencies he found, Men of the Wests points about the old versions of the lore being older versions of the red book isnt cannon, neither was his point about bilbo lying about being given the ring freely and then historians coming and changing it after they found out what really happens, those were his theories

[@alanpennie8013]

@@jaga887 If we are to take The Legendarium as being authentic history then parts of it are obviously mythology (that is the mythology of the supposed original writers) rather than history. Eg, the origins of The Sun and The Moon.

[@theily1724]

I remember there was some teen who created entire family trees based on the writing in the Silmarillion. Imagine the intellect and determination to accomplish that.

[@nostalgicbliss5547]

Pretty impressive

[@Volkrad]

Can you please give me more info about it? sounds interesting I wanna know more

[@theily1724]

@@Volkrad Go to Cracked and look up “6 Mind-Blowing Pop Culture Questions Answered by Super Fans”

[@PainCausingSamurai]

The One Piece KZbinr community holds a large collaborative live stream once or twice a year where they hold moderated discussions on the books, show, production, and fan theories. After House of the Dragon wraps up, some of the more well known ASOIAF KZbinrs should get in touch and hold a "Council of Season Once" live stream. I nominate Glidus as moderator.

[@engineerforthefuture8593]

He tries, and fails. Men of the West is a total goat

[@ryanratchford2530]

Sauron convinces the men of Numenor that there is no one true God Eru & that Morgoth is actually the good guy & the evles & Valar are keeping immortality all to themselves & convinces the men to go to war against Valinor & take Immortality by force. Eru then steps in & floods Numenor for violating the ban to sail West. But yeah, Valar are seen my many / some fans are flawed or bad guys in their incompetence

[@bvrajlal]

*there

[@Jane-oz7pp]

well, he sinks Numenor and makes Arda a sphere, but yea.

[@alanpennie8013]

Flawed but well - intentioned. Mandos is definitely sinister though.

[@ryanratchford2530]

@@Jane-oz7pp That's what BIG ELF want's you to think! Numenor slipped & fell into the Sea! Arda is still flat! There is no Eru! All hail Morgoth!!!!!!!!

[@martinhristov2296]

Yoystan is my favourite LOTR youtuber, cheers for this collab guys.

[@goatmc]

We had some jolly dancing from Merry & Pip in that scene. “They come in pints!”

[@Jane-oz7pp]

THE ONLY BREW THAT'S TRIED AND TRUUUUUUUEEEEEEE COMES FROM THE GREEN DRAGON!

[@psevdhome]

The Silmarillion is put together from several complete or near complete scetches of the whole arc of the story, but some narratives are bridged together with earlier narratives that Tolkien hadn't come back to finishing. J.R.R. Tolkien had this weird method of having these more detailed narratives written, but then he would go back to alter it because something didn't seem to work, so he would rework the entire thing from start and often might not finish it into the new form entirely. But there were several whole narratives of the history written in the style of the published Silmarillion, and the more complete narratives would add detail in between these spanning narratives. Some stories, like the later events of Beren and Luthien and their children, and the end of the second Doriath were never quite finished into their modern revision, so that material is written and cobbled together by Christopher, but most of the rest is written by Tolkien into a quite complete version. There was also the problem that Tolkien had been told by publishers that they would not publish his "fairy stories" as nobody would want to read them. Originally Tolkien had planned that the Silmarillion would have been a more complete narrative like book that would have had less detail than the Lord of the Rings but still about the same length and published alongside it. But paper was expensive so the publisher said that they will never publish such a book, so much of the lore in the SIlmarillion was shoved into the appendices. Tolkien was also very disheartened by this decision and did not return to finish the SIlmarillion with the same eagerness as he had done before. There are several things that are left on the "cutting room floor". Like are the eagles maiar, or how did the orcs come to be? These are not mysteries because there is no explanation, but rather because there are several. In some versions the orcs are mutilated and transformed elves, in others, men, in others, the children of evil maiar mixed with elves or men. In some they are animals that are given human shape but no true will or soul.

[@-THE_META]

Should have named the video "Preston Jacobs destroys Silmarillion against ignorant Eru Illuvatar believer with FACTS and LOGIC"

[@Volkrad]

And fails miserably

[@eds1942]

I missed the part where he destroyed it? Saying that the story, half myth, given narratively, might be unreliable isn’t saying much.

[@ryanratchford2530]

People don't talk about how much Guy Gavriel Kay helped working on the Silmarillion

[@lordzedd343]

So Preston takes the "fun and magic out of it", is Preston is KZbin version of D&D?

[@chvsmr9369]

“fire and blood is no one’s favorite book” you’d be surprised

[@TheKrostiman]

Old man Preston theorises at fandom. Haha never change dudes

[@jeremy2958]

Near the end of his life, Tolkien talked about the possibility that the world was always round and that the stories involving a flat Earth, e.g., the years of the lamps, were all myths.

[@ultimateshipper8997]

The Later Silmarillion, yes.

[@alanpennie8013]

Jeremy This must be true if The Legendarium gives an authentic history of our own remote past. Middle - earth may be an alt. reality Earth though.

[@octagram2955]

I think I scared my neighbor by gasping loudly out of nowhere while realizing this amazing collab, on my porch. Excitement, I am a Patreon but not podcast time. No one cares but comments help moneys now, right?

[@Nash9r]

Why didn't Preston mention his theory that LotR is a post apocalyptic tale? It is known.

[@ultimateshipper8997]

That's the Shannara Chronicles entire premise (read, retcon of a shameless fan fiction of LOTR)

[@cameronjadewallace]

Me, going in with The Silmarillion being my favorite book: here we go...

[@JilTheReal]

I mainly like it because the title has my name in it.

[@Volkrad]

I thought the whole purpose of the fantasy genre was to throw all the crazy stuff you want without the limitations of the real world, magic, wonder, creatures, mystery, gods, etc, you know, being FANTASY, like damn I can't deny asoiaf has collaborated a lot to the genre, but in that aspect has ruined the hell out of it too. Now the majority of authors I read in recent years just shy away from the fantastical element when writting their "fantasy" books, like... why? then just write in another genre then, I personally find these myths and legends filled with magic and wonder just as interesting as character driven stories, and when you combine those two, its just even better to me.

[@alvinchoquet5761]

The Silmarillion isn't a book, it's a mythological account of middle earth. And that's why it's so special

[@Arikarinful]

It's boring af. Rings of Power is already way more entertaining

[@psevdhome]

How to say you haven't read the Silmarillion past the first two chapters without saying you haven't. Only Valaquenta and Ainulindale are truly mythical. The rest is pretty much straight forward epic history done really well.

[@alvinchoquet5761]

@@psevdhome Sure but it's still mostly historical, not a proper adventure centered on on particular plot or character. It just tells you all, in chronological order, with little room for details and character dev. Also I don't have to justify that I read it all multiple times to you...

[@psevdhome]

​@@alvinchoquet5761 My heartiest apologies for besmirching your honor, it was unworthy behaviour. I objected to you calling it a mythological account, since it is so only in the beginning, and incorrectly deduced that you had given up near the beginning because of that description. I get that since it does not stay with one character the whole way through, it might be painful to read for some, because you have to go back and think "hold on, what was this character doing previously". But to me it causes no difficulty, so maybe I am uncharitable to those who find it genuinely hard to read for those reasons. Still I think the Silmarillion being difficult is more a meme than actually true, it reads fine and the story is really interesting from beginning to end. I mean the narrative that is at the centre of it, "Quenta Silmarillion". I always considered "Akallabeth" and "On the Rings of Power and the Third Age" as sort of short form appendices that compensate what was missing from the published Lord of the Rings. I have to say that I have enjoyed the longer versions of the same stories that were published by Christopher Tolkien in his later years and those I can recommend without any sort of caveat. The Children of Hurin is especially great since it has a central detailed narrative, and leaves the editor's notes to the end. Beren and Luthien and Fall of Gondolin have versions of the same tale in their various stages and is much more chaotic to read.

[@Jane-oz7pp]

Unfinished Tales on the other hand... not so cohesive lmao

[@unclegumbald989]

I remember reading Silmarillion, and the first half being so. fuckin’. BORING. But then I get to second half and it gets AMAZING and it’s amazing *because* of the stuff that’s set up in the first half!

[@MyCatIsActuallyABalrog]

Yes!!! This is so true.

[@julesguermonprez1392]

-Yeah the big difference is that LotR was somewhat normal people getting wrapped in the epilogue to an esleworld norse mythos, while the Quenta Silmarillion... ...is the elseworld norse mythos. -Come to think of it I would very much love to see Preston dissect the Arda legendarium. Starting with Faramir and Boromir's dream (you know, the one that sent the latter on the quest? after hearing a voice that may or may not be Ulmo. An undersea "deity" whispering in people's dreams, where have I heard that one before...) -Eru : ...yeah, even the supposed Ainur in our story (Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast) don't even say anything about him. Even the Valar haven't showed up in 6400 years. -PS : Why do I have a hunch Preston also knows of the Last Ringbearer? -PPS : the jolly dancing? well that one is hard to pull off convincingly. just ask Ralph bakshi. (the musical did it fine though).

[@vauiarex4877]

I'm actually more suspicious of Aragorn. You are telling me that some northener who spent the past decades in the wilderness suddenly appers in Gondor with an army of men of a distant province, deposes the Gondorian ruling dinasty and makes himself the new ruler. Surely, he would need to legitimise himself by tracing his lineage to Isildur, the whole "raised in Rivendell" thing and the Army of the Dead, which is especially fantastic. Most likely, Aragorn was just an ambitious common northerner who lead a rebellion in Western Gondor when authority collapsed during the war. Oh, and the Arwen thing. She bearly appears in the book, but we are told it is a fairy tail marriage. Totally not a political arrangement he made with the elves.

[@ItsButterBean1020]

There's a Russian novel that does this, it's called the Last Ringbearer.

[@PhilHibbs]

7:22 "So there's a possibility that there is no God..." Well, maybe there weren't any elves, dwarves or hobbits either.

[@AquaticBigfoot8]

Full video is not on KZbin Membership page

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

KZbin is being weird about that. Give it a few to appear on there

[@motelmicrowave]

Preston returning to form on this one. I was chanting holy shit holy shit when he started on the revisionism

[@theadversary]

Preston Jacobs is the Gordon Novel (Look that one up) of Fantasy Discourse.

[@milenabianca9787]

Not putting the House of The Dragon podcast on KZbin anymore?

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

Yes, I am

[@milenabianca9787]

@@OfficialRedTeamReview Yay!!! Can’t wait ☺️

[@twinpeaksreference3981]

Any mention of conspiracies and Preston perks right up lol

[@Duzzies-101]

Silmarillion is tough, sooooooo many names to wrap your head around

[@john80944]

Well, if you aren't sure, why don't you keep asking: what if there really is a devil in Middle Earth? In which reality will the people be more fucked? Then modern writers would probably choose that one for dramatic effect.

[@goatmc]

I never felt a lack of trust from either Baggins. To the contrary.

[@Volkrad]

He talks about the story being unreliable and inconsistent, but then you look at real world history and there's a lot of weird stuff going on that doesn't make sense and we simply don't know the one real answer to, and if we did, the whole intrigue goes to shit

[@samsohn]

🔥🔥🔥🔥 2 of my favorite content creators on KZbin together!!!

[@larson0014]

I thought he originally made the sil. Before lotr and tried to publish it but nobody would

[@daoberik]

those "R-E-V-I-E-W" letters from IGN xD

[@psevdhome]

There is actually the palantiri that accurately show you the past and sometimes the future. So you can go and look. But the Valar certainly are real and Morgoth as well. And you can go and check and see that Manwë talks to God so Manwë thinks he exists. So even though questioning the narrative is a fun bit, it actually is unlikely that all the valar are just lying.

[@Johnny.1994]

The first parts of the book were very good and interesting but more I went into the pages more hard it became to read with hundreds of names, locations, and timelines, so complex it will put all other worlds like a song of ice and fire to shame. It was not my cup of tee to be honest. I love Tolkien lore and world but I prefer to watch lore videos on KZbin, read the wiki for notes than Silmarilion book's structure sadly

[@lathanandrews417]

Thumbnail is misleading

[@Michael20089]

Hi I can't see this in the memberships

[@OfficialRedTeamReview]

KZbin is giving me issues with it. It should be up now

[@Michael20089]

@@OfficialRedTeamReview thanks bro, you're the goat

[@anthonyvasquez7050]

Elon Musk said Tolkien is rolling in his grave

[@mr-century]

Preston's interpretation of the story through an atheist lens sounds like projection to me lmfao. Tolkien was a Christian and no doubt that shows in his work. I agree though that it still makes for a good secular story, the noble lie to rally the world against Sauron.

[@stephaniec9539]

I had such a hard time reading the Samilrion

[@romulusnuma116]

You can't do this to me make me start believing that the Silmarillion and Lord of the rings have unreliable narrators are were biased by the in universe writers

[@ultimateshipper8997]

To be fair, in the Later Silmarillion, Tolkien argued that the entire story about the Lamps, the Trees, the tale of Sun and Moon, the Fall of Numenor and the Earth begins flat and then round, to be a human myth with some elvish spices here and there, essentially, he tried to reconcile the real world history with his texts... But eventually he abandoned them.

[@prophet_of_pain3335]

Just the clips from this video are reenforcing my view of how bad this damn show is

[@SvenskaKrig1709]

For my money I'd take songs in inns over pink masts anyday.

[@maxmercer1931]

Go on,.Joosten, make the argument that casting a non-white actor for Elros is totally okay

[@18pablo88]

I have just listened to it on audio, I found it boring to many songs rhymes ect.

[@alhena11]

Man, I love Preston. Tbh, the first time I listened to Silmarillion, I was posing similar questions. Like with Song of Ainur, I was like "Did elves made this all up?" And before knowing Silmarillion I was like "What if all the people sailing West just die at the sea and no one sees them again?" But then again Galadriel was on th West and saw that all, so then it's just "oh, I guess it's real." Generally, if there are gods in a story lore, I expect them to interact with the actual story and have some agency. Like in Discworld or Malaz. When the lore is like "the gods made this all and then decided to not intervene in the matter of men", or some similar convenient shit explanation (the worhammer emperor corpse on throne comes to mind), I'm imidiately highly suspicious.

[@amircash]

Ulmo would send dreams to people through the sounds of nearby bodies of water, there were a couple of times Manwe sent eagles, and the gods did capture morgoth on two occasions, and Orome hunted to first evil creations of morgoth to keep the land free for the birth of the elves. It seems they were afraid that they would be tempted to take control over circumstances to stop evil and then the "natural growth" of middle earth wouldn't come to be. For instance, the wizards are maiar just like Sauron, but "clothed" as old men to stop them from using their full power and so becoming another dark lord.

[@jaga887]

They intervene in many instances...

[@alhena11]

@@jaga887 Arda gods? They certainly did F all to LotR story.

[@jaga887]

@@alhena11 To the lotr story they didnt do as much, but they still sent the wizards and glorfindel from valinor to middle earth, elsewhere they played far greater roles

[@PhilHibbs]

Well, Galadriel SAYS there is an Undying West, or, SOMEONE wrote that Galadriel said that...

[@patricklloyd1797]

Based and not-Tolkien pilled

[@maxmercer1931]

I can't wait for season 2, all abo hobbits, all the time

[@Zagardal]

Preston's paranoia about these myths is how I feel about religions in general. He's like my spirit animal.

[@alanpennie8013]

The first part can't be literally true, with those magic trees and a flat earth.

[@Emanon...]

I love LOTR and the Silmarillion, but I have to honestly admit that Tolkien as a writer was not that great. Some chapters read like a biblical passage, with a song lodged in occasionally. It's not said often enough, I feel...

[@konradvonschnitzeldorf6506]

That was his point tho. Mythology.

[@someguy3186]

The man had incredible imagination, world building, and attention to detail. But Tolkein was chiefly a scholar even though we remember him as a writer, and it’s his scholarly traits (his expertise in mythology and linguistics) and meticulousness that provide the strength to his works. As with most genre writers though, his actual writing isn’t exactly awe inspiring. Not bad by any means, and is one of the best in fantasy, but he definitely doesn’t rank among the greats in the hundreds of years of English literature. Like I said, his strengths lay in other areas.

[@nostalgicbliss5547]

@@someguy3186 that's fair

[@jaga887]

@@someguy3186 Definitely the best fantasy writer, and better than any author since

[@ZoomReverseFlash]

Based Preston

[@Halbared]

Nah, not really. He’d have to read it more first.

[@dceasedbrickfan74]

I love Preston…

[@daspooperidunncurr8379]

damn, Preston over here making my dreams come true, PRESTON KING PRESTON KING PRESTON KING

[@Ulyssestnt]

LOTR is a chore to get trough in audio format...its *so much singing* lol..its great but its not GOT :) I listened to it long before I heard abt the other though. 😆 Oh ,and Preston I can totally see it from your side bud...lol