The Psychology of Vegans

[@weniswarrior666]

One thing I will say is that at least I personally, as an ethical vegan, do not hold the position that I would never harm an animal in my life for any reason. I think that's about as silly as saying you'd never harm a human for any reason; there are plenty of situations where most of us would agree it's understandable to harm a human. My whole thing is that after witnessing the reality of animal agriculture, with the understanding that I have a perfectly viable alternative to animal consumption, I can't really justify to myself participation in that industry. Ultimately I think the purpose of the vegan movement isn't to get on a soapbox and tell everyone else that they're bad for engaging in dietary behaviors that they've been socialized into having, the purpose is simply to encourage everyone else to face the reality of where their food comes from as we have. How they choose to respond and whether or not they change their behavior is up to them at that point, but I don't think many people can honestly look at a pig having its throat slit, or a calf being torn from its mother, and say that those are things they approve of and that they'd like to see happening more.

[@debbiesunlight7047]

It’s the inhumane treatment of animals in Slaughter houses .... and so much abuse that goes on. They don’t get put to sleep quietly. That’s s con.

[@dmaramba]

Thank you for the thorough treatment of this topic. I'm 58 years old and born and raised in Texas. Completely understand the mindset surrounding the idea of veganism is outlandish. Had a heart attack in 2016 and read Dr. Greger's (of nutritionfacts.org) book titled How Not To Die and started the plant-based journey there. As a kid, I never liked meat but ate it because I thought I had to. Walking into the world of vegetables and fruits and legumes and grains has just been an explosion of flavor and new culinary experiences. I love to cook! Arthritis went away. Energy went up. So many benefits beyond the amazing taste of everything. All types of ailments melted away. Since the pandemic, I've gone back to cheese because my granddaughter brings it in and... well... sorry. But other than that just no desire to eat out because the meals I prepare are inexpensive and delicious. I apologize for there long reply. Just really felt happy after listening to the show. Thanks again!

[@marsukarhu9477]

There has to be a label because when you go to a restaurant and say you want something vegan, it means something without ANY animal products. That is why it's more benefitial for all to use right terms if you want cheese (Vegan= no animat products/vegetarian = maybe egg, milk etc, but no meat), same difference as diagnosing Bordeline as Bipolar.

[@zoehill3656]

I’ve never heard Kirk sound like the less rational one before 😂

[@lizett3465]

Thank you for your great point Humberto! Kirk totally missed the point about empathy in my opinion. I have already noticed in other podcasts that with certain topics he gets righteous and defensive and a little rigid (disclaimer: I really like Kirk and I think that as a therapist he is very skilled and provides great insights). Same as you, I am a vegan plus (a very small plus :)): I never eat meat, fish or chicken, but sometimes it is hard to avoid dairy or eggs in certain contexts. I also work vor a vegan/animal rights NGO and I deal with people who are not vegan on a daily basis in a business context. There are many motivations for not being vegan I hear every day. One of them is definitely a "lack of empathy" - some people just don't care and say it like it is. But most of the time it is denial and/or repression. People know factory farming is awful, they know animals are treated horribly, but it is too hard to handle this truth actively and they prefer to forget. Literally, this is one of the main explanations I hear day in and day out: the truth is just too horrible, so let's forget it asap. And food choices are choices we make daily at least three times. Not everyone is the type to think about factory farming three times a day before making a decision about a meal. Another popular argument is taste. "I just like the taste so much, I can't imagine not being able to experience it". And the third classic is the distancing between oneself and the industry. We don't see it, we don't actively partake (as in, we don't slaughter our own animals), so we can't do anything about it. It is all a very complicated matter.

[@peachalligator7750]

I honestly think this is the #1 reason people aren't vegetarian/vegan. Personally, I am a vegetarian sort of transitioning into a vegan (not fully right now because it would be very hard to implement at the moment for me) but I don't think eating meat is wrong or anything, it's just the industry is totally messed up, you can't like animals and not acknowledge that. I honestly prefer people saying they just don't care because they are lacking in empathy over people who claim to be animal lovers but don't consider the meat/animal product industry as wrong. My ideal scenario would be vegetarian with a few of my own hens and maybe a goat or two (since eggs and cheese are the only things I find hard to substitute) but that's a long way off. Society wide I think it would be very hard to solve the issue.

[@arzotravels]

He is plant-based and not vegan +

[@gauloise6442]

isn't vegan + cheese = vegetarian?

[@kristinagarder6846]

almost vegan, but basically you're right.

[@grossgorl]

yes, vegetarian can be ovo (egg) lacto or both

[@jillianclemmons]

Thanks for this topic. I've been vegetarian for over a decade, and now I eat vegan almost exclusively. After having vegan friends and hearing the reasons that a lot of vegan people gave for why people weren't vegan--I wasn't offended. I wouldn't have been offended when I was eating meat either, b/c here's the thing--being lazy about diet doesn't mean you're a "lazy person" but it does mean you may be lazy when it comes to learning more about food and health, or you just don't want to cook. I'm certainly lazy in that way, which was why I was intimidated by veganism for a while. I just thought it would be a lot of cooking, chopping of veggies and restriction. I hadn't put in the effort to learn more. When it comes to other areas of life, I'm definitely not lazy--but health and food don't interest me. I became interested b/c I love animals and watched some videos on factory farming. Also, not caring about pigs and chickens doesn't mean you're "unempathetic" (in general) but it does mean that concerning that topic, you do lack as much empathy as someone else who chooses not to have those animals suffer. I think comparing bacteria and animals slaughtered in factories is a false equivalency. I've heard people that love their dogs in the U.S. express disgust by people who eat dogs--and then these same people eat burgers --and I sort of roll my eyes at their outrage. I think that if you choose to eat meat then I think you should just accept (rather than get defensive about) the fact that in that area, you lack as much empathy as another. I drive a car, and I rarely ride a bike to places that I could get to by bike. I lack a certain empathy about my carbon footprint compared to others who chooses the more eco option. I'm willing to admit it. I think most of the vegans I know are afraid to talk about their decisions b/c people get so automatically defensive, and it really does them a disservice. I've had friends that have gone vegan for their health (blood pressure usually) and then get their levels down, and then give it up as soon as they were healthy--b/c it was just a diet and not a belief or lifestyle. I think our country would be healthier in general if we adopted a more holistic approach to health, and more empathy for all animals--not just the ones we give names to in our house. I've volunteered in animal rescue for years, with foster dogs, and almost 90% of those volunteers are carnivores and don't see the connection between dogs and other animals. It's a disconnect we make b/c we don't share our lives with those animals. I think the best way to promote veganism is just by being happy, healthy and offering that type of food to others in a non-judgmental way when they're at your house. My conversion happened b/c my vegan friends were cool and not preaching at me.

[@maricamaas5555]

The problem with trying to convert all to this lifestyle, is that some cannot tolerate plant foods at all - we are not all the same. Similarly animals are not adapted to certain types of plant matter. When it comes to dogs for example, they cannot process coffee and chocolate, and it can kill them: Watch "CarnivoryCon 2019: George M. Diggs, PhD - “Plant Defense Chemicals: The Dark Side of Food Plants“" on KZbin kzbin.info/www/bejne/bH6Zn6GBj5aprJI Still trying to figure this out, but what I'vd learned, is that the human body is anatomically/functionally designed to digest animal foods (including meat and animal fat), and physiologically a diet high in animal meat and fat contributes to having a healthy brain and nervous system, being fertile, having a strong immune system and managing stress (by producing stress hormones).

[@zoehill3656]

Can’t believe he eats DRY salad? What about tahini or nut butter dressing, vinaigrette, hummus or hummus dressing, Avocado dressing? Oil free doesn’t mean flavour free!

[@sarahdee374]

Try Estlestens 3-2-1 dressing: 3 T balsamic vinegar, 2 T mustard of your choice 1 T maple syrup. You can add in herbs too. I like some nooch too. No oil, and super flavorful.

[@catspajamas2961]

Still waiting for THE PSYCHOLOGY OF MEAT EATERS.

[@rebeccamagrath9867]

Just for clarification: veganism is a lifestyle choice that is focused on not consuming animal products for ethical reasons, meaning veganism is for the animals. What Humberto is describing is a plant based diet or flexitarianism. Meaning he is doing it for the health reasons, with a little bit more knowledge on what is happening to animals in animal agriculture. Not to be "that vegan" but it is a very important difference because its a moral value so when people describe themselves as vegan when they are acrually plant based it kind of dilutes the meaning of the word.

[@The_Tortoise_and_the_Hare]

Well I went vegan over night after having force binged slaughter house videos. I just cried and cried and cried, and just didn't want to be a part of that ever again.

[@AbigailMontgomery]

Omg Dr Kirk, I love you, but stop interrupting him!!

[@missgreendayfan]

Thank you for this podcast! I'd like to share my vegan perspective, in the best way I can! So sorry for the long comment! For me, since I was a kid there have always been things that didn't make sense in the way we view animals. For example, I used to say I didn’t want to eat rabbits because they are cute. People are usually against killing/exploiting dolphins and other cute animals or pets just because well, they’re cute or they are people’s friends or are in general considered superior to others. In my mind, this was just like when people don’t like other people because of their appearance, their disabilities or skin color. But, since I (like almost everyone else) was brought up in a culture/society that has basically dictated that we need ti eat particular animal meats, I did. About 4 years ago, right when I was about to move out of my parents house for college, I decided to look up vegetarianism because I had already decided I wanted to be vegetarian sometime in the future, some of my favorite foods were vegetarian, the thought of touching raw meat or fish made me nauseous, so I knew that I wouldn’t be able to cook that stuff myself hahaha and I also had some concerns for my health, so when doing research I found out that vegetarianism could actually be great to reduce likability of certain cancers and other diseases (that for me was the ultimate reason to stop eating meat, much like Humberto). At first I thought the idea of veganism was extreme, but I wasn’t aware of the reasons people were vegan (as in not just following a plant based diet, which was mainly what's discussed on this podcast). I was convinced otherwise by watching talks on youtube and various documentaries. I discovered that Veganism was a philosophy/lifestyle choice that resonated with me so much and there was no argument I personally could find to contradict it. Per definition “it’s a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.” As you have said, veganism is also great for massively reducing our environmental footprint which is very important to me as well (I highly recommend watching the doc “Cowspiracy: a Sustainability Secret”). At this time when I discovered all the awful things we do to animals, without any necessity, just for our pleasure/entertainment and how destructive the industry is etc, I got really angry and sad at the world, I just couldn’t understand why people didn’t see it the same way I did. But I quickly realized it’s mostly this way because people are either uninformed (just like I used to be), have become desensitized towards animal cruelty and for this reason have become less empathetic (I see it the same way as Humberto) or just don’t want to deal with the inconvenience of it all (which I recognize as a solid reason). Dr. Honda, I understand your point of view, I think we need to change as a society and politics need to have something to do with it for better impact, but I just can’t wait around for things to change when I can do something about it myself, every day, even if it feels small and like one person can’t change anything, truth is it does, there are other people thinking the same way, each day there are more people choosing the vegan option, boycotting these industries, voting with our wallets and because of that, more vegan products keep popping up, making it more accessible for people. I feel like it’s important to be an activist as well (in the most compassionate and understanding way possible) to spread the information that I myself wish had been presented to me before!

[@PsychologyInSeattle]

Indeed. Every small effort matters. Thanks!

[@AWanderingEye]

Sofia thank you, you put it so well.

[@maricamaas5555]

Are you aware how many animals - of different sizes - are constantly physically killed during the production of plant foods? Also, by using poisonous pesticides, herbicides, and anti-biotics (like Glyphosate), chemical plant agriculture is not only causing great harm to the environment and human health, but also to animals who are fed poisoned plant matter. You might be interested in listening to MD Zach Bush explain the amount of harm inflicted on the environment and the farming community especially; with them and their children developing diseases and birth defects (including cancer, allergies and various other chronic auto-immune conditions): Watch "Food Independence & Planetary Evolution: Zach Bush, MD | Rich Roll Podcast" on KZbin kzbin.info/www/bejne/jmTEgIRmg5xnhqs Keep in mind water soluble Glyphosate is now found in breast milk, rain water and the air we breathe; so that buying organic plant foods does not protect one. There are court cases against Monsanto (recently bought by Bayer) in this regard: www.reuters.com/article/us-bayer-glyphosate-lawsuit-idUSKBN1ZN0D9 Have also watched documentaries What The Health, Cowspiracy, and Game Changers... When one does proper research into the claims made in these productions, it becomes clear that they are propaganda mouth-pieces - not with the purpose of human health in mind. The documentary Forks Over Knives, is clearly linked to the SDA sect. Recently Gary and Belinda Fettke had this discussion with Ivor Cummings in regards to the war against meat; exposing how the dietary guidelines prescribed by RD's all over the world, have been developed by the financially powerful SDA sect, theirby promoting the use of products developed by their processed food companies (beginning with Kellogg's), but moreso to control and manipulate humans towards suppressing their sexuality: kzbin.info/www/bejne/pmG5qJ2pj6-gj9E

[@annie_moon8984]

I'm vegan and I'm so excited about this.

[@saratanartist]

Humberto didn't know you were vegan ! if you ever visit Toronto, we are a very vegan friendly city. Many great places to eat. 😀

[@petrockspiracy3120]

17:00 I became vegan a couple months ago and I've found decent substitute cheese, although of course it can be more difficult eating out. I've also adjusted the the milk, so it's pretty much like being a vegetarian now.

[@ebaby6452]

I wonder if there is any psychological toll on the people who work in slaughterhouses. To see and hear daily what goes on, (if you've seen clips from any of the vegan documentaries or just on youtube, which was enough to make me slightly phobic of meat from there after) daily for 8+ hours a day, I assume would be traumatizing, or maybe some of them have a psychological defense built up? I think even if you haven't grown up culturally with empathy towards farm animals, it would naturally be hard to see and partake in. what do you think? (also people in that industry tend to be disadvantaged by immigration rules and language barriers, and may feel like they don't have much choice)

[@veronikabauer1853]

They do have trauma. Many end up with PTSD

[@chickpeapasta]

You didn’t even interview an actually vegan for this though...

[@maricamaas5555]

What is interesting to look into, is the reports of ex-vegans who over time became ill after trying the lifstyle. Some are highly qualified in the field of nutrition, and were health coaches themselves. It seems to me it is a good option for those adapted to do well on them, to use plant foods for cleansing purposes for a period (like the Daniel fast), but then to re-introduce animal foods again when one feels depleted (this is the advice Natasha C.McBride gives).

[@dedu98]

Why would he limit himself to interviewing someone that is 100% vegan instead of 95? He is still a good representation of someone who eats vegan.

[@okay1928]

Marica Maas let’s interview them along with people who have gotten ill after eating the standard American diet as well.

[@jessa.4529]

We need more "vegans" like Humberto doing it well if imperfectly than monomeals/fruitarian/breatharian/Raw till 4

[@KurticeYZreacts]

do psychology of smoking

[@Yasmin-qq5yu]

Why are The Netherlands not on the list and Belgium is??

[@christinas814]

Thank you so much for doing a look at veganism! I just discovered y'all on Spotify and then realized when you kept referring to "KZbin comments" you must out your episodes up on here too. Anyway, love you guys! You bring a lot of humor to educational topics so it's very easy to listen to you two chat. I won't go into reasons why I'm vegan since I know Kirk will lose it 🤣

[@PsychologyInSeattle]

Ha! Thanks!

[@maricamaas5555]

Personally on an adventure as an Omnivor, in the jungle between Vegans/Vegetarians and Carnivors... Doing research has been quite an adventure! It was liberating to realise that the 'experts' who promote one diet for all, is wrong. Weston Price found different isolated people groups over the world thriving on different diets. They consumed local produce - whole foods - unrefined - unprocessed. None of the diets were vegan. All were high in healthy fats, and contained some form/s of animal- and fermented food/s. To help patients to recover from advanced cancer, Dentist Kelly and MD Nicholas Gonzales used more than 10 different diets and individualised supplementation according to autonomous nervous system dominance. Some did terrible on diets high in meat; some could not tolerate plant foods, and did not heal unless given meat. So, each person has to find out what his/her body needs at a given time. Most important also, is to employ regular daily and extended fasting to give the digestive system rest, help the body clean out waste products, and concentrate on healing/repair and detoxifying (See SCIENCE OF FASTING documentary, and listen to MD Jason Fung). Currently there are those (for example Mikhaila Peterson) who had elliminated all plant foods from their diet; they are using meat only Carnivor diet, or PKD - low carb ketogenic (Zsofia Clemens) - to heal from various conditions. For more than 20 years Natasha C.McBride has been using GAPS diet; healing the gut to address psychological, physiological and auto-immune conditions - also employing animal foods to heal the gut before re-introducing plant matter. WIL recently posted a study about the importance of meat; especially for those growing, and growing the growing: Watch "Meat: Grows the Brain or Rusts the Body?" on KZbin kzbin.info/www/bejne/Z36rY42BqZhogZY At the 2019 Carnivor Conference there was an interesting lecture on Defence Chemicals in plants; plants are not always friendly... Bread Disease/Wheat Schitzophrenia is for example noted as an unfortunate disease of the brain. Soy is a protease inhibitor, endocrine disruptor - mimics Estrogen, messes with the Thyroid, and (similar to harmful cholesterol lowering drugs) inhibits cholesterol production... Conclusion: Critical thinking skills high in demand: Also when it comes to discerning manipulation by those trying to recruit us into following one specific diet!

[@ksis86]

Atheism is a good comparison. I cant even say the damn word without being attacked.

[@DoubleAAnime]

Keepin it real~ Love it! And I love you guys' chemistry!

[@jadekelly7616]

What are some good cookbooks or tips for beginner vegans? Thanks!

[@stephaniec9161]

Jade Kelly thug kitchen is a really great cook book! It's all plant based. I would suggest joining some vegan groups on Facebook or browsing vegan hashtags on instagram. Pinterest is also a really popular place for vegan recipes

[@AWanderingEye]

Here is an encyclopedic video that is full of very doable dishes. He also goes into lifestyle/nutrition/pantry/kitchen techniques as well... kzbin.info/www/bejne/fGStq4Vnacpqndk

[@lilygoose]

Since you're a youtube person, I recommend kzbin.info/door/EjkioV3LO_OIUaSWRxFZ3A

[@samraeo]

I really like from my bowl KZbin channel. She does low budget vegan meals.

[@KurticeYZreacts]

awesome email and topic

[@PsychologyInSeattle]

Thanks!

[@AWanderingEye]

Humberto, please say you are Pescatarian who wants to be whole foods plant based (SOS). On youtube look at Well Your World for SOS. FYI veganism is more than your diet --- its doing all that is practicable to not harm animals. If you really want to ditch dairy start learning about calves and dairy cows. SOS refers to no added salt, oil or sugar. Salty taste comes from miso, oil is replaced by water for sauté or bananas, applesauce flax or chia for baking. Sugars are replaced by dates and other fruits. There are tons of recipe videos on KZbin walking you through this lifestyle...glad to hear you're addressing your health issues.

[@HaloSmyth]

My experience is that neither conservatives or progressives like vegans

[@missgreendayfan]

There's a funny saying "vegans are like adults, first you hate them then you become one and realize they were right all along"

[@bigfriki]

Yeah you keep saying that, without explanation or any line of reasoning. Well done, here's your BigMac as prize. [facepalming now]

[@grossgorl]

hey dr. kirk. i love your podcasts and i was just wondering why you got a doctorate instead of a psy. d because i'm a senior and going to be majoring in psych and im finding it very overwhelming and need as much advise as possible and your personality and way you talk is how i see my future self. thanks.

[@PsychologyInSeattle]

I have a PsyD. I've made a few episodes on how to choose the right degree. You can find all eps on our website.

[@Ash-ec5iq]

I'm about to get my masters and THAT is a bit overwhelming as I am busy and good at putting too much on my plate. It's interesting because my old therapist told me not to get my doctorate because it wouldn't make a big difference. I will have to check out his videos. Good luck on your degree! As long as you are or have worked in the field you're good! I am sure it is challenging! I know someone who got her masters to become a therapist but never worked in the field and I think that was her biggest mistake.

[@HaloSmyth]

Nyc as a vegan city surprises me. I was in manhattan and only found a couple vegan places to eat. Maybe i should have stayed in Brooklyn

[@ksis86]

I think i have empathy for animals, I’ve seen the documentaries. Cows and pigs are so sweet and I hate how they are treated in slaughter houses. But I’m just so used to meat and don’t have enough willpower to avoid my cravings. I can’t just not have a burger or chicken nuggets for a week lol. I’ve had vegetarian foods but it’s not enough to make me want to switch

[@kimf1993]

For the monstrous thumbs down- some might be accidents. Sometimes I go to thumbs up a video and see that I've already thumbs down'ed it, like, with the side of my hand while scrolling.

[@AutumnCzun]

I wonder about this thumbs down thing. Could it be that there is a practical use? Like telling Google/KZbin about one's preferences, so that there will be better video suggestions in the future?

[@spaziman]

I think the more popular you get on KZbin, the more you will have to either accept that it will be filled with garbage (unless it has heavy moderation), or just ignore it entirely. This is what being a (semi-)public figure on the internet means, unfortunately. Just not reading or ignoring/deleting offending comments/emails and moving on might be the best idea in the long term unless you can grow some really thick skin. Or have someone else be an intermediary and filter out the nasty messages :D.

[@PsychologyInSeattle]

Agreed.

[@Simplyunashamed]

I'm a vegan and so excited to hear this!

[@Auriflamme]

In my experience, people didn't feel very much about vegans or vegetarians until social media really took off and the phenomenon of judgmental vegans promoting veganism like some sort of religion appeared. It's not vegans as a group who are hated, it's the preachy judgmental ones who give a bad name to the vast majority of kind, intelligent, fun vegans who just want to live their own lives according to their beliefs.

[@zarsinoe2467]

Dr. Temple Grandin - absolutely wonderful work & a remarkable person . Has done much to improve lives of cattle . Autistic , really worth reading .

[@annie_moon8984]

Have you tried CBD oil for your doggo?

[@PsychologyInSeattle]

Yes

[@maricamaas5555]

@@PsychologyInSeattle Ketogenic diet have been known to manage Epilepsy in children especially... Fatty meat cuts and adding extra fat/ healthy oil maybe?

[@yoshiew05]

31:51. Spaghetti sauce on rice!!!OMG! My japanese mother would serve that too!!

[@littlefrog9553]

When I was vegan, part of it was an extension of my orthorexia and disordered eating.

[@Lacostasammy]

Very interesting!

[@Whatever_Amanda]

Ik this comment is late but I HIGHLY recommend the book The Vegetarian Myth by Lierre Keith

[@RepublicAgent]

Old Boy. Nope. That hallway fight scene is good with him getting tired but the rest of it? Ehhh... The director had the actor eat a live octopus. It's a scene in the film. I saw it once, probably won't again. Except for that fight scene.

[@PsychologyInSeattle]

Yeah. I didn't like that movie. I know it's a big hit for some.

[@maricamaas5555]

Humberto... It was funny to hear: Somewhere during this discussion, you were speaking just like Dr. Gregor; which is an indication of the amount of time you have been listening to him and his version of nutrition facts? It reminded me of listening so much to Prof. Jordan Peterson, that I not only started talking like him, but he was appearing in my dreams! 😅 Anyway, let's assume Dr. Gregor is for real by reporting honestly about published studies. Yet, keeping in mind that the Editor of The Lancet admitted that more than half of the studies they published, were not the truth... Maybe you owe it to yourself and your audience to also evaluate opposing views to what Dr. Gregor is advocating? Start for example by reviewing the issue of Cholesterol and the intake of saturated animal fats?

[@Ostekat]

You talked about sustainability. As far as I'm aware, factory farms are more sustainable than "Free range happy cow" farms.

[@spaziman]

I have been researching the most optimum diet as well and I've watched a bunch of videos from NutritionFacts! Unfortunately, I still have a long way to go. It can get quite complicated. It’s good that Humberto doesn’t eat any eggs anymore since eggs are probably one the most unhealthy things you can eat. Added sugar is probably also up there. Robert Lustig has fantastic videos on here that go into detail. Among the basic principle of a whole plant based diet being the most optimal, the Blue Zone thing is one of the most convincing for that idea, nice that Humberto mentioned it en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Zone.

[@aikaterineillt9876]

spaziman why are eggs one of the most unhealthy things to eat?

[@maricamaas5555]

It depends on what the birds are eating, yet in general eggs seem to be one of the most nutritious complete whole foods to consume. For many who are poor, it is their only source of healthy ingestion of bio-available animal protien, fat and other essential nutrients; this being highly advantageous for development of healthy brain for example while children are growing - also in the womb.

[@essendossev362]

Actual reasons most of my friends aren't vegan/vegetarian: 1) allergies (to beans) 2) depression. A friend of mine can barely find the energy to put some chicken in the oven some days - how is she supposed to put together something sufficiently nutritious that's also vegetarian? 3) financial limitations. In many places, meat is cheaper than vegetables per calorie. I get what you're getting at Kirk, that many vegans/vegetarians present a holier than thou, moralizing stance towards non-vegans, and absolutely this can be off-putting.

[@okay1928]

Annamaria Dosseva It’s possible to be vegan with those limitations. I’ve been vegan/vegetarian in the US, India, and East Africa and I can attest that vegetarianism is possible and affordable in each of those countries even with the limitations you’ve outlined. Most people think that veggie diets are inherently more expensive but that’s a myth. Most of the time it’s cheaper and more nutritious to eliminate meat. It’s okay to not be vegan/vegetarian. If your friends are interested in eating vegan/vegetarian they should know that it’s 100% possible for them to do so. Edit: vegetarianism will be challenging in rural Alaska or Canada where fruits and veggies need to be flown in once a week.