Reflections on a Tournament of Power (Dragon Ball Super)

So now that Dragon Ball Super has gone off the air, I sit down and unpack my thoughts on the Universe Survival Arc. Ultra Instinct, Jiren, Ribrianne. Where did this story arc get it right? And where did it really, really fail?

[@Geekdom101]

This is a teaser trailer for episodes of DBD for 2023-2030

[@lulu1997master]

Geekdom101 This is so true lol We’d wait for it though

[@youtubegoogleb]

cant wait!

[@mimikyuliker946]

Geekdom101 so true. But in the word of jiren, “I said I’ll wait. This is your special attack right? I’ll wait”

[@Zero-de6hq]

Actually I don't need him to review DBS. He should review GT next because I won't be able to predict his opinions on that.

[@majinsole8554]

This is not your channel. You're not even a true DragonBall fan anyway, SMH. ~_~

[@TheAzulmagia]

In hindsight, Toriyama really seems to love "Oh no, their new power-up ran out at the last second." He's been doing it with every transformation since the Buu Arc except Super Saiyan Blue (Super Saiyan 3, both Fusions, Super Saiyan God, Ultra Instinct, etc.). I don't get why he uses that trope so often, but I wish he'd ease up off of it a lot.

[@unironicallyablueraspberry4959]

Not SSJ god tho nor mystic

[@tiablue9106]

+Unironically A Blue Raspberry: With Ultimate, Toriyama pulled the old “they could’ve won easily but got overconfident” move. And with SSG, the transformation did run out, but Goku didn’t weaken much

[@trainmaster997]

And it’s a really bad trope too, in my opinion. Because the time limit is always completely arbitrary. 5 minutes can be anywhere between 7 minutes, an episode, and 3 hours. Add a somewhat meta way to measure time (such as 1 page = 1 second, or having a timer constantly on screen), the trope works a lot better, because now we have an actual time limit to dread. We know how close it is, and it doesn’t feel as arbitrary. Of course, that can also be immersion breaking, but it would work a lot better than a very blatant example of “it ran out at the exact time that’s most convenient/inconvenient for the plot.” Authors may always control the narrative but readers and watchers shouldn’t be constantly thinking about that!

[@zurialcarey4767]

"Tournament ,FIGHTING,POWER-UPS,YAYY,WHOO!!!!!"-Goku for literally the entire tournament... probably why the tone felt the way it did.

[@zurialcarey4767]

+brabbit330 but its different when there characters act that way in dire times

[@M3rtyville]

Zeno = DBS fanbase

[@ganoninthepit]

Goku was severely disappointing, and we had to hear a chunk of the fanbase constantly justifying his thoughtless selfishness. Sure, you have to go in and fight even if you fucked up, but his complete lack of remorse made him completely hateworthy. I felt no incentive to root for him.

[@bigbangpegasusmaster]

Yeah, it's even weirder because the setup (Zen Exhibition Match) was VERY well done. In the tournament itself there were some glimpses of them delivering (Goku desperately trying to save Roshi and for the first time as an adult actually crying, Gohan feeling guilty about erasing Universe 10, Universe 9's erasure causing even Frieza to stare in shock, Universe 2 and 6 taking it like champs), but by the following episode it seemed like nobody cared aside from Vegeta vowing to bring back Cabba.

[@spartanq7781]

The Yamcha jokes took it to far. At this point Yamcha should just be forgotten like Lunch. At least being forgotten a character is far away from mistreatment. Yamcha isn't a bad character but the way he's treated is bad.

[@Erika-pc6vx]

I agree, I hate every fucking meme on that character

[@Videospiel-Man5730]

Read the Manga that might make you happy!

[@spartanq7781]

@@Videospiel-Man5730 Eh I don't care enough to bother.

[@criticalfists87]

now Toei is doing this on Tien, if you watched everything about Tien you will realize that they trying to make Tien useless too his w at the tournament was bs. His students not being able to use basic ki is bullshit, him trying to use Tri-Beam every single time is stupid. People are sleeping on the fact that Tien is a martial artist that has variety of techniques than Kikoho.

[@criticalfists87]

@@Videospiel-Man5730 1 fucking frame my guy. It's literally useless compared to other 4 decades of shitting on him.

[@vaiyt]

My problem with the Tournament of Power is that it goes out of its way to squander any potential out of the series' worldbuilding. They introduced 13 new universes, which could present fun twists on the DB races and premises and present an infinity of new challenges. Instead, most of the universes are either unremarkable or throwaway gags, but also starting out with the most powerful warriors of each means the series has no reason to go back to them.

[@theajaxs720]

Nobody broke the "no killing" rule. I thought atleast one person would by accident.

[@purerage7963]

Remember when the spoilers for 99 came out saying that Krillin would be disqualified, and we all thought, "Holy hell, what if he accidentally killed someone?! That would be insane!" But no. He had to get cucked by Not!Frieza.

[@theajaxs720]

Pure Rage unceremoniously too. It should have taken more than a cheep trick, or something unique. Heck, I could see someone weak attempting to eliminate a stronger enemy by waiting for the right moment and jumping in front of a blast and letting themself be killed in an attempt to give their universe a better chance. Why have the rule if no one's gonna break it?

[@ganoninthepit]

@@theajaxs720 Yet another example of a good concept wasted.

[@marxist-leninist-protagonist]

@@theajaxs720 I guess Chekov forgot his Gun.

[@Habbib]

IMO the tournament should've been on an entire planet with various ecosystems and maybe weird gimmicks with each one. The fighters could be knocked out either by leaving the planet's atmosphere or touching special zones that would start small and get bigger with time. Just think, there could be breathing room for slower episodes because people could hide and lower their Ki levels to avoid confrontation, a varied bunch of backgrounds and colors so you wouldn't get tired of looking at the same three rocks and if people could fly the fighting coreoagraphy wouldn't be limited and would lead to much more dynamic battles!

[@prathedragon9847]

Holy shit

[@prathedragon9847]

But that wouldn't be a good spectacle for Zeno I gurss5

[@Habbib]

He could watch all the fights in a Monitor room or something

[@colbyspencer6485]

hirotocrash Toei should of hired u fr

[@didgeridude8430]

Either that or the Grand Priest "changes the field" every 12 minutes to keep it varied. (Think about how they did the different arenas at the Pokemon League)

[@Pokemonleafmon]

Just over 30 minutes, so close MistareFusion, so close...

[@Prime92]

I have to agree that 18's comment was the dumbest thing I've heard in an anime for a long time.

[@poordolt6482]

Prime92 what did she say again?

[@Timothan]

I burst out laughing when I first saw that. Just when I thought Super couldn't get more stupid.

[@Zigulart]

​@@poordolt6482 Remember that moment when she was shocked 17 used his wish to restore the lost universes back to life instead of just asking for a boat? That was not just a selfish and jerk moment from her, but also stupid and petty considering this is a wish that has pretty much no limitations and her Idea of a good wish is wasting it on something mundane.

[@Don11037]

@@Zigulart yeah that's something future trunks 18 would say

[@Don11037]

@@poordolt6482 nice name

[@Mordaedil]

I feel like it peaked at Kefla fight and never really recovered. Also we kept getting disappointed because it kept raising the bar and missing it. Every damn time, it's amazing.

[@TheAzulmagia]

Goku and Frieza vs. Jiren in the last episode was pretty good, but yeah "Goku's out of stamina, but now has Ultra Instinct, but now is out of stamina, but now has Ultra Instinct, but is now out of stamina" got really old really fast.

[@anjetto1]

The kefla fight is a true highlight for me. I really loved it.

[@StevenJones851]

​@@anjetto1 Kelfa fight best

[@MyMindisFreed]

I love the Jiren comment. "The most boring in Fiction!"

[@spartanq7781]

I will give the manga credit for writing him a bit better.

[@bigbangpegasusmaster]

Spartan Q77 He was better in the recruitment, but he was somehow even more boring in the actual tournament

[@jackstamper893]

How to repair 18s dialogue: Make ir sarcastic. Make her smirk, and ask: "That's unusual for you. Didn't you want a boat?", while making it clear she's only mocking him a bit.

[@miguel_1972]

Great

[@TheBigBlueBugofJustice]

That would actually fit her personality extremely well to boot.

[@AllisterH]

I'm with you with regard to Yamucha. It seemed very mean spirited and at times I actually found myself actually thinking the other Z fighters are just jerks.

[@GAPMan88]

I agree with this.

[@sonikku956]

AllisterH I guess they felt that Yamcha fans would be satisfied with the special episode and spin off manga, so it would be alright to dump on him. They thought wrong.

[@ericbrown6203]

I mean seriously why the heck wouldn't they choose him instead of FREEZA?

[@LUCKO2022]

Yamucha sucks. He would have been ring outed in the first 30 seconds of the tournament and then they would have lost.

[@LeRodz]

@@LUCKO2022 I really doubt that, considering that the team still had Vegeta, Goku and Gohan. Yet, even with Tien and Roshi there (who are weaker characters with a lot of experience), they went on and won.

[@dtay8913]

I love listening to your opinion on anything lance. Thank you 👍

[@cajozack]

I’m so glad you brought up the handling of Roshi’s perversion. I felt so uncomfortable where I’ve never felt weird about him before aside from the norm.

[@JustButton]

Tyz The Phoenix it always seemed just opportunistic. Like if there were boobies, he’d ogle, if he had something that bulma wanted, he’d trade for panty shots, etc... which is uncomfortable to begin with anyway. Him groping the unconscious Ranfan at the tenkaichi budokai by pretending to be a doctor is really yuck. In super there were examples where he seemed less opportunistic and more forceful, and showed that the people he was ogling were afraid of him. To him, and to the audience it was supposed to be a joke, but to Puar for example, it was scary. That’s what made it uncomfortable to me anyway.

[@razkable]

I oddly never minded roshi until I saw a filler scene from the garlic jr. saga where hes oogling chi chi boobs while shes mad at marron and hes holding her back and while yes it starts out as her moving around he eventually does for a second move his head implying he is conscious to the situation and I was like gross shes married roshi..that's not right...mainly cause she didn't seem to notice so he never got any come upings for it.....it didn't sit right with me..it still doesn't....shes pure of heart since she can ride on nimbus and shes gokus wife his former student...like come on...Asian woman don't like that..it makes her look bad..it takes away some of her image and yeah the scene in the plane with 18 when he grabs her boob in front of his other students daughter is pretty bad too...like really bad ....@@JustButton

[@JustButton]

Asmosis Jones you know what? It was always uncomfortable.

[@ganoninthepit]

@@JustButton It was always uncomfortable. But the Super occurrences were far and away the worst imo

[@bigbangpegasusmaster]

Yeah, that was just.........ugh. In the tournament itself he was much better...........................for the most part (that scene with that girl from universe 4 was also disgusting)

[@shenanigans8353]

Jiren having no character to speak of at all until the last 5 eps was one of my biggest I mean at least there was something to him by the end even if it wasn't that interesting Man did I get tired at looking at the same scenery for 35 eps with no cutaways I couldn't agree more on the morel dilemma or lack there of, Possible to be responsible for the death of 7 other known universes and basically nobody not even the most noble characters gave a shit

[@beauferret5414]

Just imagine how much longer the Universe Survival Arc would have gone on for if it had been made parallel to the manga.

[@orbits2754]

He's like a calm zeon lol 27 minutes in and naw just zeon lol

[@didgeridude8430]

Hahaha

[@mars5914]

Nah a zeon that doesn't quit every two seconds

[@Don11037]

@@mars5914 lol zeon fed up wit the bull shit

[@handsomebrick]

I dropped the series the instant that I learned they were bringing Frieza back, I think I made the right move.

[@bryanc7094]

You did

[@PerezosoDoom]

The ending also renders pointless the entire arc, yes, it is the obvious outcome, but come on, the series is constantly trolling you into believing SOME twist is going to happen, but no, it had no tension, it had no reason to be, it made no sense. The entire Frieza plot was a... fine idea? But for what? Are they pretending to make him a good guy now?

[@Mark-re1zn]

A good guy? No, just a tyrant re-establishing his galactic empire, free to destroy worlds as he pleases. And while with the new retcons, a freshly socialized Beerus might have been able to regulate his xenocide, now that he can literally no-sell destruction energy and his Golden form's at a dubious level of power with the potential to get even stronger, who knows what ridiculous suffering they've unleashed on the rest of existence. Whis with his save states, Conjure Baby, and Life 3 spells makes me think it's extremely convenient the heroes only run into other physical gods with minor tricks or gimmicks at best to tangle with and never have to deal with conceptual hax as an antagonistic force. Jiren-but-this-time-even-buffer was a cool guy for Goku to punch but I'm just wondering what if the better parts of the Gohan Blanco meme had achieved reification and you had that skinny blue fucker Grande Padre casting his omnipotent mandates all over the place. With only 28 planets in existence though, Frieza's probably gonna run out of shit to do in like a month and end up just hanging out having Capsule Corp barbecues with everyone else eventually. What better way to piss Vegeta off and schmooze with the only scientist in the universe that can extend his reach to other timelines and realities.

[@eazylegend9614]

Doomentio Zamasu arc

[@AarturoSc]

It doesn’t. The experience they got through this add up to their strength. There’s also the many new characters met and how they basically have to prove that mortals as low as they could be are capable of great things too like mercy at a multiversal scale when they could just as easily ask for ANYTHING to be he Super Dragon Balls, even rewrite the whole spectrum of reality as they wisher sees fit, to being able to reach absurdly high levels of power.

[@Googaliemoogalie]

Lexus Kuntelis I really hope that BBQ thing doesn't happen and then we have tension between him and Vegeta, like Vegeta and Tenshinhan had (has?)

[@Googaliemoogalie]

Freeza is not going to be a good guy anytime soon. He's more marketable as a villian and apparently, in super, the only good villian. I bet he's gonna go on another Dragonball hunt. Or try to get god of destruction powers. He had a plan during the tournament of wank. He has to continue with whatever it was

[@travelreview5962]

I think as time passes more people will come to agree with this point of view.

[@ladyaceina]

ive seen that happening honestly hell most people seem to view goku vs the U6 girls as the highlight now rather than hating on them (its almost as if having an arc to characters and a fight having a back and forth as both power up makes things more interest)

[@terryfrost43]

Tbh the last episode was my favorite by far. That fight sequence with Goku, Frieza, and Jiren was incredible.

[@TheTournesoul]

my little brother could write a better antagonist than jiren. he was like the classic disney villan but worse, with no motives or reasons.

[@PersianSlashuur]

TheTournesoul That is...blatantly not true. His entire family was murdered by "someone", as well as most of his friends and the ones the weren't completely left him. That's when he started to think that power is everything. Could it have been better? Of course it could have. But it's at least something. Honestly, Frieza's much more of a diet-Disney villain than Jiren. He's evil because... _because._

[@dreat5665]

@@PersianSlashuur But Freezar has a personality

[@bigbangpegasusmaster]

Classic disney villains are at least fun to watch

[@pascalsimioli6777]

@@PersianSlashuur You just described every DnD character background. Bland, generic and put together only to justify their existence

[@territorialarmyfoundations6044]

I think Jiren is far more interesting than people think. He’s Gokus ideal, he’s what Goku thinks he wants manifested. Gokus ideal is strength Jiren is strength embodied. And it’s boring almost on purpose to show Goku there’s better things to care about

[@LordUzaki]

I always thought the biggest misstep in Super was the writers refusal to not return to the status quo after the Goku Black arc. Their removal of Future Trunks from the story, while completely nonsensical, left out so much opportunity for the Tournament of Power. Trunks interactions with Freeza being he is the one who originally killed him. Exploration of Trunk's absurd power up in the previous arc. Most of all, an exploration of Trunk's character as he has to decide to follow the path of his father through training his newfound God Tier power, or attempt to settle into a life of normalcy as his mentor figure, Gohan, already has. He has seen the death of his universe, which could motivate him to become stronger to prevent this from happening to his new home. On the other hand, he has Mai with him now and after seeing how his mighty warrior of a mentor has achieved such happiness in his family life, would he desire the same thing? Then you think about how he would react to the basis of the Tournament of Power, his old universe erased, now his new home is threatened with the same fate. How does this affect his internal struggle? I could go on and on with the potential for this. They did nothing with this in the interest of returning to the status quo and it honestly is disappointing. Even the Manga couldn't avoid this trap.

[@sonicmariogaming2222]

I’m late to the party here but if there’s one scene in the ToP that pissed me off beyond belief, it was the scene where everyone tells 17 off for interrupting a transformation. Like, EXCUSE ME? You are in A UNIVERSE THREATENING TOURNAMENT, FIGHTING FOR SURVIVAL. AND YOUR CONCERN IS FIGHTING FOES AT FULL POWER? I get pride and playing fair all that bullshit, but if the stakes are THIS high those should be the LEAST of your concerns here. They literally yelled at 17 for using basic common sense.

[@bhussain123]

This guy knows his shit. Toei needs to hire this guy!

[@Fanatic_Foremem]

I dunno, dragon ball without SOME bad writing wouldn't feel like Dragonball and I think he'd want to purge even the slightest of bad scenes.

[@AarturoSc]

Japan is extremely xenophobic.

[@Fanatic_Foremem]

Dr. Miles Manners They really aren't, if anything they're a bit TOO open to other cultures in alot of ways.

[@theradionicrevival8068]

@@Fanatic_Foremem doubt it, lance has gone on record that a lot of things they liked about DB in the first place were a lot of the nonsensical things that made no sense in the first place. The times where toriyama and his editors were just put in a melting pot and through everything at the wall Part of the reason Lance began this series in the first place was born from genuinely being deeply fascinated by all the series and communities fascinating little idiosyncrasies. From jump to Japan to pop culture, to toriyama, his editor, Toei, the anime staff, Eastern fans, western fans, old ones, new ones etc And is also pretty critical of the fans who try to lob dB as just a comedy, or just an adventure or just a fighting show with roided maniacs They outright said that there isn’t a single arc of dragon ball that they can’t find something they like in. Honestly, with how long Lance has done this for, I always got the impression that they know so much about what’s gone into making DB, that they’re not even arrogant enough to assume that they know enough to actually make DB work again 😂😂

[@theradionicrevival8068]

Lance would just make the best/worst executive decision and make it so there IS no dragon ball story anymore I feel like they believe the “best dragon ball” is no dragon ball, and just allowing the series to rest because its stories already been told.

[@marcus7984]

Just got home from school and this was a great surprise to see in my sub box! The best part of my day so far. I do follow you on twitter but this was still nice to hear you say everything you wanted to without a limit.

[@spyroG3]

What surprised me the most about Dragon Ball Super, was its ability to make each Arc worse than the previous one.

[@eazylegend9614]

Spyro dumb bitch

[@Soniman001]

by that logic you make it sound like the movie recaps were Super's best, which is tthe hilariously retarded sort of logic I expect from a Dragonball fan

[@purerage7963]

Soniman001 Goku vs Beerus was the best battle in Super, hands-down. Way better than the movie version. No other fight can hold a candle to it except in raw spectacle alone.

[@Soniman001]

no

[@purerage7963]

Soniman001 But what exactly is wrong with it? The only aspect of it that I find dumb is the universe-busting subplot and how it conveniently disappeared when it needed to. I wouldn't even complain about SSJG's healing capability because this was the anime's first time showing SSJG, so they were free to do whatever they wanted with it. Well? What would you say is the best fight, then? I can't say I expect you to find one that's not flawed to the core or pure shallow fanservice.

[@danielquinlan2457]

I wonder if the ToP would have benefited from being structured as a team elimination tournament ala Yu Yu Hakusho's Dark Tournament as opposed to a battle royale.

[@ladyaceina]

they really should have gone that rout the dark tournament is the best tournament arc ever

[@GogetaEiyuuYamcha]

Yamucha wasn't in the Tournament, 0/10.

[@spartanq7781]

I don't understand why. He is far stronger than anyone. In all seriousness he is far stronger than the Turtle Hermit. I also didn't like that everyone in universe is suddenly a dick to him. They were never like that before. It felt disingenuous to him. All for a joke that went nowhere. Then Vegeta for some reason is a dick to him. Even though Yamcha should be to him. He did steal his girlfriend from him.

[@zjboogie012]

@@spartanq7781 after killing him!!!!

[@spartanq7781]

@@zjboogie012 That was bad enough but then he adds salt into the wound. For some reason only Tenshinhan gets on Vegeta for tangentially killing them. Toriyama was pulling a "come on roll with it" move.

[@zjboogie012]

@@spartanq7781 vegeta deserves redemption, but a peaceful life on earth is too fucking much

[@trevor5834]

Powerscaling generally is something I find ridiculous, but even DragonBall managed to have instances of inconsistent power levels that even I was like what is going on

[@ForwardSynthesis]

Reasons I hated it (long comment incoming). 1: Power scaling, yes, power scaling. I think it does actually matter, for the reason that you can either have power scaling or you can have rock, paper, scissors like abilities or strategies. Either way, you need some kind of system behind the scenes to give the fights tension, and give the characters clear limits they have to work their way around. It's tempting to fall back on the "power levels are bullshit" meme, but if characters can just be arbitrarily as strong as they need to be, then the fight becomes abstract and structureless, and structureless things are utterly boring. Of course, things that only stick to a set formula become boring too eventually, but you need to have a structure in the first place to have novel, surprising things, because they only work when they break with an established structure and establish a new one. Throwing out structure altogether just leads to a sense of emptiness. It might be contended that Dragonball characters were always as strong as they needed to be, but that's missing out the writing behind that. In the original manga, Toriyama always had the characters at a particular strength and then gave a REASON that the characters got stronger. Maybe it wasn't always a good reason, but it was there, and it formed the structure of the later arcs, where the strategy would involve the characters trying to go to certain places and find new methods of training and so on. Characters wouldn't just get stronger at any moment without some kind of foreshadowing or specific reason. I feel like Super throws that out the window completely and this is one of the reason the fights are so boring. The characters just anger hax their way to greater power at the exact _moment_ the plot requires it (everyone is Gohan, which is boring). There are also no consequences to using power. Despite some complaints I thought it was good that Goku and Vegeta were sparing power early on, but then they just start using blue over and over again, and then Goku uses super duper ultra pooper scooper instinct what was probably three times but felt like fifty, and then he's out of energy completely, until the plot needs him to fill up again. Don't go back on that! If Goku exhausts his energy, then it's Vegeta's turn to learn from his mistake. Power scaling is a nasty catch 22, of course, in that it made the show into a Saiyan's only club, and at some point you have to reset things a little bit and allow the weaker characters to catch up and show they are strategically useful because of their abilities, but the show handled this really poorly. Instead of adjusting the structure, it just threw it out the window. 2: Blowing your load too early. Dragonball had already filled up the Earth, then space, then time, and then the universe, and so having a whole new setting of multiverses is a huge deal. That's potentially years worth of interesting ADVENTURES in these new universes, and they just cram them all into a tournament where the vast vast majority of them are complete fodder. They did hold back three super strong universes, I suppose, but it felt like a huge waste of story potential. 3: I agree with MF on the timing issue. About the only way this show would have redeemed itself would have been if they'd had Jiren lose because of the time running out. Another interesting thing would be if Jiren won and then showed his good side in victory (would be better than trying to get emotional resonance from 17 making the decision). Well, if they'd set him up as interesting to begin with, that is. 4: The Frieza surprise is horrendous. How did nobody notice he wasn't back in the seats that entire time? Then they have 17 appear showing that he hadn't blown himself up, at the same that Frieza reappears. Just this alone shows me how they could have done this so much better. Forget Frieza, and have him lose normally, and have 17 be the character that surprisingly comes back. Everyone thought he'd sacrificed himself anyway, so he wasn't going to appear in the seats. 5: Why have all these characters fighting and then wall them off from each other with rocks to save animation budget? Don't do that story to begin with! It never felt like a huge brawl at any point. It felt surreal even for Dragonball. 6: The fixed setting is the biggest problem. Everything starts to blend into everything else. It reminds me of a time when I had a fever and David Lynch's Dune was on TV, and every time I'd slip in and out of consciousness it seemed like no time had passed. The setting narrows everything down to the point where it starts to feel like a parody of shonen. Especially the exposition. The limited animation that is part of long run anime begins to feel farcical when the characters watching recount exactly what just happened with completely stiff bodies like robots. It makes it seem like everyone's going through the motions. This is zombie Dragonball. Is it lurching towards its final resting place? Reasons I liked it: 1: Soundtrack was nice.

[@yugfus]

Forward Synthesis In my opinion power scaling was fine. The weaker characters fought weaker opponents that they could defeat. I still saw who was weakest and strongest. Krillin got stronger for example but he never caught up to Goku or Vegeta.

[@ForwardSynthesis]

That's not what I mean. I was talking more about how Goku and Vegeta progress. I liked seeing the weaker characters get a boost, on its own, but not what it was encapsulated in.

[@yugfus]

Forward Synthesis Also about your Z characters getting stronger but with reason. That's not really true. Z really powered up people the same way! Toriyama wrote that characters trained but you always saw extremely little from it. You kinda just had to believe they got stronger in the Manga. The anime was what gave us better explanations and showed us things they were doing through filler episodes of the training. When reading the manga you just kinda had to go with the flow on power ups.

[@deonterector1208]

yugfus Z had like creative or lazy plot device to characters stronger at times though most of the training wasn't shown.....While super had Nakama Power ups with a little training for other characters or.........You have characters like Muten Roshi who train anymore but able to beat Tienshinhan or Trunks before the asspull being able to handle Goku black rozay form.Or Artificial human 17 being able to go toe to toe with Goku in his blue form which didn't make sense even if he was holding back,Then you have fans damage controlling it with this shark tank theory....

[@ganoninthepit]

Agreed 100%. The soundtrack, too. That was easily the high point of Super. Loved the music in the second half of the series.

[@Rudoku1]

I'll be honest: Yamcha would've did better in the ToP than Tenshinhan. Especially the manga version...

[@razkable]

cant just add him and kid trunks?...they kinda should be there..

[@adambraun1990]

I really wish they would’ve brought him instead of 17 or Freeza. Personally I would’ve loved for Yamucha to have been the overall winner of the tournament (maybe he just stays hidden the whole time until the very end). It wouldn’t been nice to give him that kind of big win.

[@randomnigga-kun8471]

Im a die hard yamcha fan and I get why they bought back frieza but roshi really . I get that he have experience but he already be outclassed

[@user-fy1nq3nf1q]

@@randomnigga-kun8471 heavily outclassed, yeah. Yamcha was what, easily 50 times stronger than roshi thanks to king kai's training?

[@alexanderchilton911]

The last two arcs and filler episodes of Super justified its existence for me. I know a lot of hardcore fans seem to hate it, and I certainly have issues with it, but I enjoyed certain aspects about the show a lot. Ultimately, I am on the side of liking the show, despite it being pretty damn flawed.

[@colbyspencer6485]

Alexander Chilton the same way I feel about GT

[@ChaddyFantome]

Same. Besides, its not like OG Dragon Ball or Z wasn't flawed to begin with, lmao.

[@colbyspencer6485]

That right for ever series has pros and cons

[@razkable]

the top has more eps of just the fighting than the other 3 tournaments from og dragonball combined...your welcome...that's what toei does best...filler...akira toriyama told 3 separate stories in less eps then it took toei to tell 1...why?..cause people want to see fights ..not actual good writing

[@oxcare5]

@@razkable or instead of a single person doing the entire story, it's a group of writers with just footnotes from Toriyama and nothing else (except character designs from time to time)

[@LeRodz]

Honestly, i like how they handled Freeza. He was by far the most fun character in ToP. I wish they didn't shit on Yamcha and Buu only to include him tho. Jiren is by far the most boring villain ever. He wasn't really a antagonist (or even a character) until the very, very end of the arc. In summary, just like a lot of things in Super, it was a cool concept with a "eeh" execution.

[@yotomoe5953]

Y'know I thought about the Roshi thing, and what I think the issue is. Roshi tends to only act perverted towards strong willed ladies. Bulma, Chi-chi, Blonde Launch. All the ladies that are an object of Roshi's perversions tend to be the type of personality that won't cry or scream or feel any fear. Bulma and Chi-chi will both immediately react with anger and Launch jumps between complete obliviousness in her blue haired form or Rage like the two former in her blonde form. Even a lot of side characters he hits on end up reacting violently rather than with any sense of fear. But in the case of Super, each case has the girl reacting in fear rather than in anger, making it feel quite a bit more uncomfortable.

[@criticalfists87]

he did that on Blue haired Launch too...

[@yotomoe5953]

@@criticalfists87 True, but Blue haired Launch often times Turned into Blonde Launch in the middle of his more debaucherous acts and punished him. I actually can't think of a lotta times (in the manga at least) where Roshi does something to Blue haired launch that doesn't end with her unwittingly not falling for it or just transforming and shooting him.

[@bearmanscave3289]

You mention you liked most of the recruitment episodes, but did you feel that Tenshinhan did get treated fair? I don´t mind that Roshi was able to take him off guard, but I really felt that Tenshinhan was the only one who did not get to do anything cool. Instead of Goku getting involved, I would much rather see an longer rematch between Roshi and Tenshinhan, where Tenshinhan saved the day. It was supposed to be his episode after all.... Not to mention that they could have let him knock some weak guy out in the tournament by himself, since even Krillin was allowed to do that

[@AarturoSc]

Bearman's Cave Tenshinhan got a lot of bang for his buck. Not him, Krillin or Roshi would have lasted that long on characters on the tier of even Piccolo. Toei was generous enough to give them some victories.

[@ericbrown6203]

Honestly I'm glad you like the ending because I HATED the ending to this arc. Everyones intelligence went straight out the window. Freeza Literally said "take me back to Hell" he didn't even want his wish anymore. They could have just let him go back but NOOoo This revived him (apparently angels can do that) he's not going to change. Goku said he can't access Ultra Instinct on his own. So that's wonderful. 18 thought 17 made a Nobel sacrifice because he gave up his boat for the survival of 7 Universes....UGH. Goku now has to deal with Freeza for a 3rd time ( also Freeza given what we saw in Revival of F) Freeza can now just leap frog iver anyone he chooses with a slight amount of training because he's a prodigy. 😒😒😒 .....I will say though I am surprised you didn't think the Resurrection F TV arc in Super wasn't the worst arc given how vocal you've been about Resurrection F the movie on Social Media. But hey that's your opinion.

[@purerage7963]

To be fair, the main fight of the RoF Arc was indisputably trash-tier, but the rest of the arc, in my opinion, made a number of improvements from the movie that I was willing to accept with open arms. The bridge between BoG and RoF, the training with Whis, fixing a number of plot holes, better use of Tagoma (for one episode, but meh), Ginyu's return (hated the way it happened though), Gohan's mini-arc (even though it was trashed immediately upon entering the next arc), and the destruction scene that actually took itself seriously. It also helps that that arc wasn't 55 episodes, 35 of which happened in the same horrifically boring environment.

[@ZigTheHunter]

I think for certain that Frieza still wanted his wish, he said so the very same episode, he just wanted to go back to hell as to not be around the others being happy and celebrating, as that stuff sickens him, and just wait for Goku to revive him.

[@ericbrown6203]

True there are improvements but since he's stated it's the worst movie, I figured Lance would believe differently. I don't actually believe that ROF is the worst movie (Though I do like it less than a lot of people did). Freeza's training is still just as vague if not more so. IMO the fact that Tagoma was so good and then god replaced cancels any additional credit I can give the arc. Goku getting injured seriously with a laser, Vegeta not even sharing the kill with Goku. Bad animation, yes it did have some interesting filler between arcs but as a whole the fighting and the battles are just....too terrible for me to enjoy. It did end on a strong note with Episode 27 but honestly it was too little too late.

[@poordolt6482]

You could just skip the whole arc and barely even miss anything

[@JackOfen]

What's bad about 18 being suprised? She is just shocked that her selfish and juvenile brother really did grow up.

[@Don4ce]

Honestly, I think your opinion isn't even in the minority here. The general consensus just seems to be very positive when something new comes out after being gone for so long. A lot of people seemed super positive with the start wars prequels when they first released, but time has not been kind for those movies. People who don't like something tend to keep it to themselves. I think most of your audience will respond well to this video.

[@mars5914]

Its sad that GT gets completely fucking roasted even though Super is complete garbage

[@homesliceheroes6306]

@@mars5914 yeah because rewatching gt, the story and characters are structured better and is refreshing to look at with the new designs.

[@mars5914]

@@homesliceheroes6306 Idk if that's sarcasm or not. But I'm not saying GT is superior but Super gets alot of underserved praise even though it has just as many faults if not more than GT. Besides atleast GT aged up Goten and Trunks.

[@homesliceheroes6306]

@@mars5914 i was praising gt because super is just...ugh in so many areas.

[@mars5914]

@@homesliceheroes6306 GT kept the aesthetic and spirit of dbz while trying to keep continuity as well. Super said fuck all that and tried to go with what's cool for right now. The best things to come out of Super was Golden Frieza, Black, and Hit besides that no character is memorable.

[@federicoarmada8775]

"There's not a single episode I've watched more than once." How would any person stand watching more than that?

[@yourmom9931]

Francisco Arruti I mean some of the fight scenes are pretty rewatchable.

[@purerage7963]

Some episodes were bloody great. This was one hell of a patchy arc, though. Definitely not the kind that I would want to watch in its entirety again, but I'm a completionist so I feel a need to see it again to hammer out my thoughts on it.

[@anjetto1]

I've watched a few episodes more than once. Mostly just the big fight moments. Goku vs kefla. The androids vs ribrianne. The last 2 episodes.

[@ZigTheHunter]

Please, when there are people who will claim this is the best arc in the franchise, don't act surprised when there are people who can not only stand to watch an episode but actually like one enough to re-watch it. You would have to be living under a rock to miss the almost universal positive reaction the majority of this arc got from a ton of fans. I don't blame anyone for disliking or hating this arc, there were more than a few episodes that I hated despite others giving them a free pass or even liking. Its good to have standards, but don't pretend everyone follows yours.

[@federicoarmada8775]

ZigTheHunter That still doesn't allow me to understand how anyone supposedly enjoys such boring tensionless unnecesarily long fights about flanded characters and fighters with no personality at all where anything can happen whenever the plot says so AND which don't even have any remarkable aesthetic aspect. Beyond pure and blind fanboyism, I mean. And I don't follow those who claim this is "The best arc in the franchise" (Which might be the stupidest claim I've heard about DBS yet), the whole show is mostly a meme by now. So when someone like Lance who has an actually respectable criterion doesn't talk about this show like the obvious effortless meaningless cashgrab it is, I AM SURPRISED.

[@purerage7963]

0:17 A hot take this early, damn. 4:11 You doomed yourself there :D. But hey, the longer the better, and your thoughts are still worth listening to even if they're more scattered unscripted. 5:27 This is the dilemma I've been having for the past few months. While I've leaned towards dislike towards Super throughout its run (I've been keeping up from week 1 via fansubs and moved on to CrunchyRoll at some point in this arc), there were some elements sprinkled throughout the whole thing that kept me invested enough that I wanted to see more of that instead of dropping the series entirely. You summarized my thoughts at 5:53, honestly. 8:27 Completely agree. A great premise, largely for the reasons you mentioned plus how it had the largest immediate scope of any arc, squandered for the most part. 10:02 I can see how you enjoyed the recruitment stuff since you're not interested in power-scaling. I am, so they ruffled a few of my feathers. I think my underlying issue is that colossal power handouts like those given in this arc show a lack of care for what power means narratively. Goku is *dimensions* beyond his pre-Super self, so having others catch up to even his base state with just a year of training (assuming RoF was shortly before the U6 Arc) is just jarring to me. Not only that, but we're not even led to believe they did any special kind of training. There are a half dozen means of boosting power legitimately, yet none of them are used (except Vegeta using the RoSaT for about a half-day before destroying it because he's "alpha"). It's a mini-arc sprinkled with, "They're this strong now, deal with it," and that's a giant red flag that tells me these characters are only active for the duration of this arc, and the status quo will be resumed immediately after. I would've loved to see a mini-arc showcasing Roshi training with Goku in the RoSaT-the master learning from the student to surpass his limits. Power isn't supposed to be a limiting factor in a story like Dragon Ball-it should be a narrative tool to accentuate the story (which the original run, unfortunately, eventually lost sight of). 12:53 That's certainly the best breakdown of Yamcha's treatment in this arc that I've seen. *15:25** is where the actual tournament's breakdown begins, for anyone looking for this specifically.* 18:53 Hot Take #2 20:19 Hot Take #3 I'm clearly deriving enjoyment from this. 20:54 Hot Take #4 someone hold this man back. 21:05 Hot Take #5 nothing needs to be said. 22:24 #6 I'm so glad I'm writing these down. 24:35 Oh God, those Closed Captioning cutaways were torture. Textbook examples of padding for the sake of it. 25:29 & 27:09 Right?! I couldn't put my finger on it, but something about the subversion in Super, or in modern DB in general, just feels so...gimmicky. It feels like Toriyama's made a meme out of a trope he loved and knew how to use to his advantage, and ended up throwing it in for the sake of it. It's become the classic "shock" piece that has no weight but is there for momentary entertainment, and it's a major warning flag when you end up relying on shock value to keep up interest in your piece of media. 26:36 Hot Take #7 I am a happy panda today. 29:50 That conclusion is music to my ears. I really wanted to love this series and this arc. I genuinely did. But I can't do all the work myself. I can't force myself to "ignore problems because Z had some too", or put up with the shoddy pacing, or the fact that the writing was purposely crippled because, unlike the Black Arc, writers rotated EVERY episode with this show (what do you expect from that except catastrophic failure?!). It just broke my spirit. The only thing that didn't survive by the end of this arc was me.

[@ThePrivateVoid]

^

[@GleeChan]

So basically Dragonball Super turned into the fanboy circle jerk Dragonball Multiverse?

[@ziongamer6905]

Christina Lacey I fucking wish, they literally made a bootleg version of it imo.

[@pages4573]

Honestly I can't disagree with that. At least multiverse the different universes are somewhat grounded in our knowledge of the main one.

[@Timothan]

Multiverse at least *tried* to make a storyline out of it...

[@ThePrivateVoid]

DBM is just edgy as shit lmao

[@godemperorofmankind3.091]

DBM started out great but got bogged down in endless pointless specials that dont really tell us much, and wanked off to Bra and Vegetto the way Toriyama wanks to Goku

[@NBABasketballUploade]

Thanks Lance for the great start to my day!

[@Googaliemoogalie]

I also agree with how cringy and uncomfortable the scenes with The Muten Rishi was when he was with Puar and the other girls. Weird and embarrassing

[@edgyadam2372]

What do you think about the Super Manga, Fusions? Do you think it's better than the anime? Or worse?

[@TheAzulmagia]

Personally, I feel like the manga is more structurally consistent, but it's not having as much fun as the anime is with things. Dr. Rota isn't even named in the manga from what I hear and is just eliminated unceremoniously rather than doing his "Let me show you why they call me doctor" shtick. That said, I did like a lot of the changes to the Black Arc, even if it did annoy me that Trunks doesn't really get to do anything.

[@purerage7963]

BlueMageDanny The manga is better with its narrative and direction at the cost of not aiming as high as the anime. It still has its high points, but it's largely crippled by Toriyama's direction, just like the anime.

[@gavinlucas9761]

@@TheAzulmagia I personally much prefer the Manga one, It only took me 1 hour to read were in the anime it took me nearly 6 hours with the anime and It was very boring and it did not work for me. I can see why some are disappointed but I wasn't really a fan of this arc to begin with and I much prefer keeping it short.

[@SylentEcho]

Beatles Mono Box set on the top left there. You, sir, are a man of good taste!

[@didgeridude8430]

Wow what a treat! Love seeing this, Lance 😎👍. Also, cool shirt!

[@Kisaru1000]

You mention Ribrianne in the description, but you didn't bring her up at any point in this video?

[@M3rtyville]

I don't think this series could be great considering the ending of Z was fix and the stakes mean therefore nothing unless the stakes were something like getting trained by the Grand Priest himself. But they could have fixed a lot of this, like actually U7 ally with U6 and actually make the God Ritual a plot point for making U6 Saiyan and Gohan competitive. Heck, they could have had Vados train the U6 Saiyan before the tournament announcement and I would be fine with SSJB+ Caulifla. They could have used the characters abilities to stall time so Goku and Vegeta can regain Stamina and Energy properly, while the Cyborgs cover them up. Instead U7 roflstommed everyone and U11 did nothing but wait until everyone weakened despite Jiren being able to end the tournament in an instant and save his universe. I don't even recall why he didn't even bother to seriously fight. He didn't even knock out Goku or transgender Broly out of the ring. Everyone got illogical amount of power ups off screen like Roshi who might be Super Vegito level if we power scale throughout the show. He could defeat SSJ3 Gotenks who lost to Purple Cum Vegeta.

[@purerage7963]

Roshi can solo Z at this point. It's ridiculous.

[@glimmerkepu]

I don't think Jiren is a bad character in concept, it was just poorly adapted from the Toriyama notes in both manga and anime. You can see sparkles of classic dragon ball characterization here and there, like in the last episode, how he thought that only by himself he could attain maximum strength and yet he was defeated by the cooperation of 3 guys that used to be enemies, only to discover afterwards that Toppo trusted in him from the beginning, even calling him a coward for being so insecure about cooperation. This also sort of ties in to Goku telling him that they've both grown from fighting each other and that he looks forward to the next time they meet (which will probably never happen lol). Goku did change Jiren's outlook just like he did with every other rival but the production was such a mess that the message got lost along the way.

[@gavinlucas9761]

Unlike most people, I actually prefer the manga version since it wasn't anywhere near as long as the anime one. and I honestly think it should have been 12 episodes instead of 35, there was just to much stuff happening for me to keep track of and even during it's hyped moments I still found the tournament segment to be boring.

[@rhondahoward8025]

Everybody didn't love this arc. Laughingstock, Hail Zeon, Mad Black Anime, and That Anime Snob raked it over the coals if you want a good _roasting_ of the Tournament of Power.

[@AarturoSc]

rhonda howard Laughingstock Media is a joke of a channel.

[@glennrhee7918]

Dr. Miles Manners how becsuse seth said so?

[@AarturoSc]

Glenn Rhee No. Because he himself downward spiral into one. Seth’s opinions aren’t absolute, regardless of what his fanboys think, but LSM as a Powerscaler is fucking hilarious! MJxTV is a better one. Also they guy avoids discussion and blocks people who disagree with him or call him out. The fact he only bitches about Gohan makes it even more “laughable”.

[@cajozack]

Which would you prefer, the Tournament of Power? Or Dragon Ball Multiverse (without the specials)?

[@MalzraAirwynn]

"I don't even care about [power scaling]." I think this is one of the reasons this is my favorite channel for dragon ball analysis. Too many people get caught up in whose power number is bigger.

[@ericbrown6203]

It's not even really a matter of whose number is bigger, if there isn't consistency if characters aren't at least in the same spot they were (Without giving a reason for them to be stronger of course) than there is no more tension. I mean if Goku can go from being unable to faze Kale in Super Saiyan Blue to being able to dominate both of them in Super Saiyan God than who cares how much they set Jiren up by beating up Super Saiyan Blue Kaio-ken? Goku can just grow magically stronger without any effort. I agree that deciding whether or not Base Goku (Pre God Ki absorption) can beat Freeza on Namek isn't really all that important....same with exact multipliers and PL lists but if a character can just be totally defenseless one episode and with no reason just be stronger I don't understand how anyone can be invested because if his power can just rise than there really isn't any need to worry.

[@MalzraAirwynn]

Really I think DBZ went way overboard with power scaling. Okay if you want Gokue to be 'the strongest' of the good guys fine but I feel like things got way out of hand on Namek. You could say the Saiyan saga too but even there, Goku didn't win alone and required aid from three others that were most certainly not on Vegeta's level so it didn't bother me. I always felt like the power gaps spiraled out of control and so things like Krilline and Roshi getting a bit of a boost etc or saiyans from another universe getting SS faster just don't bother me. I just wish things would be more based on tactics/strategy and techniques and less on gimicky powerups. At least ultra instinct isn't just another SS color and actually alters behavior so I can give it that much. When it comes to power levels though I'd much rather have a cast of characters closer together.

[@michaeldiekmann6494]

It was Toriyama who used Power Scaling and other points to make SSYs stronger than everyone around them. Suddenly Krillin can have a match against Ultimate Gohan or SSY Blue. Of course it feels strange

[@razkable]

welcome to the shonnen anime youtube community...they just care about power fights and memes..they don't deserve the amount of effort the writers put into the subtley of these characters making them nuisance feel real and the characterization...they love development but only if its massive and obvious....these people expect the characters to be stereotypes for their simple brains cause if a character has a realistic persona with the ability to look t each situation differently then they are badly written and hard to relate to I guess cause my brain cant get why they dotn just do their trope and say what I expect them to normally say in that situation..

[@Mike-xh2vm]

That's the best thing about Lance, he doesn't care about superficial stuff like power levels in Dragon Ball.

[@wearywanderer1912]

DBS 131 I liked Frieza character progression. We know he'll stay a villain, but it was heart warming to see him accepting Goku's trust at least for that moment. Then he being revived so he could enjoy the victory as everyone.

[@adambraun1990]

Yamucha should’ve been in the tournament, continuously escaping being knocked out of the ring til the point where Gokuu and Jiren first fight and part of the ring blows up. Make it look like Yamucha got knocked off and from that point on do not show the entire group sitting in the stands all at once (like no group shots, just have the characters speaking on screen). Then during the Gokuu, Freeza, #17 and Jiren fight have all of them fly off the ring at the same time, and everybody is left to wonder who won…and Yamucha walks out from behind a rock still on the stage. He should’ve gotten to go and get the win That would’ve been both hilarious while throwing him a bone cause Yamucha deserves it

[@nicholassims9837]

Funnily enough Jimmy Neutron did a similar idea for the tv move Win Lose and Kaboom, with teams forced to compete and if they lose their planet gets destroyed. Only difference instead of being a battle royal it was more of a game show and did parodies of Survior and Wheel of Fortune .

[@tiablue9106]

super late reply but I couldn't help it bc I've compared the 2 myself. that TV movie was better than this arc in every way bc 1. none of the characters are rlly at fault for ending up in the competition 2. actually has a focused character arc for jimmy 3. none of the competing aliens are portrayed as villains, just ppl competing to save their planets 4. the game show host, meldar prime, is the villain and he gets his comeuppance 5. the characters actually act appropriately given the stakes 6. it had hugh neutron and those are just the main reasons, there are lots more

[@JuniorRDZ04]

I didn't realized this video came out on my birthday! It's been more than two years, huh?

[@uberpwn3d21134]

You pointed out many of my major complaints about this arc. I'm impressed with how articulate you are off the cuff. Please read the DBS manga.

[@Videospiel-Man5730]

Yes it fixes most of his complains After all Except the Boat Thing that got worse!

[@adamgentile7953]

I'm glad to hear someone else with similar opinions as me on this arc, and ya I'm really surprised they never did a cut away to gotten and trunks on the island

[@markmorales7958]

Dude nobody in Toeis “writing department” cares about substance in dragonball (even for the most simplest of storytelling), only mindless, meaningless spectacles and corporate marketing. This franchise in its entirety is AIMLESS...

[@tyronetolentino]

I was so wishfully hoping that The Tournament of Power would be similar in tone to The Eclipse from Berserk in that they would be introduced to bizarre and grotesque looking creatures from completely different universes in an ACTUAL 48 minute free-for-all, our fighters being brutally over-powered by them, dismemberment and mutilations aplenty, and Goku being the last Universe 7 fighter fighting, feeling immense guilt for the events he had been the catalyst for. And a Freeza betrayal thrown in for good measure.

[@caruemugiwara6427]

Agreed with almost all of this, though I think I'm less positive on the recruitment episodes overall. There were definitely some highlights (episodes 94 and 95 are about as perfect as Dragon Ball get), but otherwise I thought the recruitment stuff dropped the ball in terms of stakes pretty damn hard (the whole multiple universes at risk of erasure element felt like a side note), and wasted time that could have been used introducing characters from the other universes on Android 17's Wacky Alien Adventures and the... whole deal with Yurin. Plus the exhibition match was just... baffling. Why are we having a mini-tournament with zero ramifications when the Grand Priest already MENTIONED the Tournament of Power and its universe-destroying stakes? What's actually the point??? I don't put Toyotaro's manga on a pedestal like some fans, but he gets pretty basic stuff right where the anime falls flat on its face, like structure - we go into his version of the exhibition match not knowing what Zeno's got up his sleeve, so the Gods of Destruction free-for-all doesn't feel like a total waste of time; the characters aren't going into it knowing it's completely pointless like the TV version of events. And then there's Goku vs Bergamo, and the fact that if Bergamo wins the universes don't get destroyed... okay, sure, use that as an opportunity to showcase Goku's skewed morality. But WHY ARE GOHAN AND CO ROOTING FOR GOKU IN THIS SCENARIO LIKE IT DOESN'T MATTER???????? Dragon Ball is a series populated by selfish assholes, and that's part of its charm, but here we have characters pretty much complicit in multi-universal genocide. What the actual fuck. And why does nobody bring up the prospect of reviving the destroyed universes until Vegeta talks with Cabba more than halfway through the arc? If you're going to avoid the subject, at least lend it some weight, like Goku or Gohan bring it up but Beerus and Whis reckon "oh but if we brought them back immediately after Zeno erased them he'd get mad and destroy them again as well as us!" so the prospect is off the table, and it turns Android 17's wish at the end into a genuine test of character where he manages to see through Zeno's gambit in a way the other Gods don't, continuing Super's theme of mortals surpassing Gods! That's the worst part. There are so many elements that could work REALLY well with just a minor rewrite or two. I'm not a power scaling person in the slightest, and I don't have a problem with the so-called weaker characters competing, but if you WANTED to justify that you could easily have thrown a scene where Goku brings everyone into the RoSaT to train them for a few hours - setting up his future as Oob's tutor. And I mean, we DO get a scene of SOMEBODY entering the RoSaT... it's Vegeta! And his training amounts to absolutely nothing! And makes little sense for his character given that he's been despondent about fighting and competing in the tournament since Goku brought it up to him! So what's the point? It's just a scene that happens. That's this whole sordid, rotten arc in a nutshell - just scenes. That happen. No purpose behind them, no story being told. They just happen. Just the slightest of rewrites and changes could have lent these scenes weight, but I guess it's too late now. At first, the whole "tactics and teamwork will be the deciding factor, and not power!" element REALLY excited me. The episode where Goku and Kuririn spar was so, so promising - Kuririn is one of my favourite characters and I thought it was a wonderful way to bring him back to the story while remaining true to who he is. The fact he had come out of retirement to pursue martial arts again, and had something to prove, meant he was one of the precious few characters with incentive and motivation on Universe 7's team, alongside Goku, Gohan and Freeza. And if you WANT to argue Android 17 because he really wants a boat... uh, yeah, sure. So the tournament starts, and then! Kuririn's knocked out almost immediately. One of the few characters given actual setup and material to work with for this story... gone immediately. The story mocks him for it - REVELS in giving us one less character arc to care about right off the bat. Character writing? Emotional investment? Why, such trivial nonsense would just get in the way of the bombardment of empty, pointless, style-over-substance fights we have in store! I think an early elimination was a good idea to ramp up the stakes, and that if anything should have gotten more Universe 7 characters knocked out sooner to make the team seem less... invincible than they ended up being. But you don't make the FIRST elimination one of the few characters with an actual arc mapped out ahead of time, nor should you do it with one of the weaker characters when this tournament was setup to subvert Dragon Ball's traditional notions of strength! Vegeta, meanwhile, who DOESN'T EVEN WANT TO BE THERE gets episode after episode dedicated to how badass he is, eliminating character after character after character. It's only near the end where they realise "oh we should give him actual emotional stakes here huh" and they tack on I HAVE TO KEEP MY PROMISE TO YOU CABBA MY BESTEST FRIEND!!! which he repeats about twenty goddamn times. I have... such a chip on my shoulder with how Vegeta was handled this arc because up to this point he was, in my eyes, one of the highlights of Super. Say what you will about the Universe 6 and Future Trunks arcs, but they felt like they developed the character in a sincere and natural way, and he was a delight throughout. His relationship with Trunks in the latter was especially touching. But in this arc he just... completely regresses. He's a caricature, swinging wildly from one extreme (FUCK YOU KAKARROT I HATE YOU AND WILL NEVER HELP YOU I WON'T EVEN CONTRIBUTE TO YOUR GENKI DAMA THAT WILL SAVE OUR UNIVERSE EVEN THOUGH I LITERALLY CAME UP WITH THE PLAN TO DO SO WITH THE MAJIN BOO ARC) to another (I'M A BIG SOFTIE NOW I WUV MY FAMILY AND I LOVE MY BEST FRIEND CABBA AND I WILL DIE TO PROTECT THEM AT THE DROP OF A HAT). Such a goddamn shame. The five characters that actually try to work as a team at the beginning and stick together (Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Kamesennin, Piccolo and Gohan) are all eliminated before the five characters ('cept 18 who gets knocked out before Gohan) who fucked off and tried to act like lone wolves in this dangerous battle royale setting, where by all rights such attitudes SHOULD result in elimination... except no, because this wretched arc drops the whole "teamwork will be important!" strand almost entirely. There are some episodes sporadically scattered throughout that tackle it, but not nearly enough, and the major fights all come down to the same "my number beats YOUR number" formula that has become so, so tired at this point. So... that's my near-incomprehensible wall of text about a mediocre children's cartoon. Whew. There's still so, SO much else I take issue with this arc, but this was getting too long and too self-indulgent as is. It's just... refreshing to see someone else as frustrated with the writing of this arc as I am, and not in a "CAULFILA IS A MARY SUE" way (she's not) or a "THE POWER SCALING DOESN'T MAKE SENSE" way (maybe not, but it never has with Dragon Ball anyway and it doesn't matter). This arc has huge tonal and structural problems that I don't see enough people talking about. And I don't mean to decry those that did enjoy this story. I don't understand it myself, but if you liked it, more power to you. It's just somewhat alienating to see praise heaped onto this thing week after week when you just... don't see it. At all.

[@kingbash6466]

I completely agree, man. The writing, tone, and structure of this arc is so poor and mishandled that it makes Fairy Tail look like Akira.

[@gregm4813]

I have no regrets about refusing to watch Dragon Ball super. Or, quite frankly, in actually watching Dragon Ball anymore. Much as I like my boy Gohan and have nostalgia for the show, it's HORRENDOUSLY written, it's problems never addressed or even an attempt made at addressing them (and they aren't THAT hard to fix, either), yet it's still gobbled up because spectacle.

[@GorshFlytgear]

It's kind of Super in a nutshell. Introducing potentially interesting plot threads and ideas and failing to follow through, deciding rather to repeat the same things over and over again resulting in nothing of any consequence really happening.

[@CidAghast]

you know that "Are you sure you wanna wish back billions of people" I think that would and COULD have been cool with just.... a little more retconning to make 17 and 18 more grim than just.... randomly intense like "Oh hey they still kinda are killer cyborgs so sometimes that kinda thing slips"

[@ByakuyaOfTheDreams]

I'm really glad you articulated your feelings on this arc. I always appreciate how well you explain your point of view, and that I can agree with nearly all of your criticisms while still having a more positive outlook on many of the things you disliked. Overall, I really enjoyed the Tournament of Power because it provided many underutilized characters like 17, 18, and Muten Roshi really nice character development and meaningful plot involvement, while also introducing a lot of fun new characters like Caulifla, Kale, and Toppo that will hopefully be explored more in future series. They dropped the ball on a lot of things, and I don't think it's one of the best structured arcs at all since it has probably the worst pacing of any arc, but nonetheless I always enjoyed the experience of watching and discussing it. Even though I also believe Dragon Ball doesn't need to continue, I don't mind and am even happy it does, because I like the community that has formed around discussing Dragon Ball Super and that there's always something new Dragon Ball-related to talk about with friends. Even when it's not at its best, I think the show is a great community-binding experience.Those videos showing large public gatherings in Mexico enthusiastically watching the last two episodes of Super really emphasize how special Dragon Ball is to a lot of people, which fills me with warm fuzzies since I'm a big softie. I thought it made sense that 18 was surprised by 17's wish because 17 giving up what he wanted to bring everyone else back to life is an uncharacteristically selfless thing for him to do, at least from 18's perspective. 17 was originally a pretty selfish and self-centered dude, who stole things he wanted because he could and there was no one to stop him, didn't care about anything that happened to innocent people, and was just playing around during fights. From what the show lets on, 17 and 18 barely keep in contact, so 18 likely didn't realize the extent to which 17 has matured over the years. The audience knows, since we've seen 17 willing to sacrifice himself to protect others when he tried to save the Minotaurus in episode 86 and then during the Jiren fight, but I think having 18 being surprised by what 17 wished for just emphasizes how much he's changed as a person from when we first met him back in the Cell saga.

[@vegettoblack7852]

Namek has shorter days than the ToP

[@Onlynylon]

Your opinion is interesting as always, man.

[@pages4573]

Woah, didn't expect to see a video of this yet. I do think people tend to forget the 20+ episodes of pure set up the anime did. (Luckily cut to about 3 chapters in the manga,)

[@purerage7963]

I'd rather a longer recruitment period *but* at the condition that we actually get character development. Gohan got an insane plot boost, but at least he got some growth. Can't really say much for Krillin's since he went out in the most hypocritical and out-of-character way, or anyone else's for that matter. I would've done anything for a mini-arc where, assuming the recruitment period would be 40 days instead of hours, Roshi would ask Goku to train him in the RoSaT and teach him what he's learned. The student learning from the master. And it would've hit all the right notes with no negatives aside from the RoSaT time limit that has never been addressed in Super, but whatever. I would gladly take a Saiyan Arc-style training mini-arc covering all of the fighters, instead of "I've been training one year conveniently lol lookie my power".

[@BradLad56]

When I watched it, it kept me entertained and I didn't feel bored but then again I binged it as opposed to watched it weekly so maybe that's why.

[@PhantomVortex]

DB Super was trash. Only people I know who liked it are Vegeta fans. Throughout the entire Super series all people wondered was when Vegeta would surpass Goku. They should have just left the Future Trunks ark out and brought Trunks in on the Universal Tournament.

[@piccolo9365]

The best Dragon Ball has EVER been? *Maybe* the best Super has ever been.

[@MistareFusion]

You're going to have to give me some more context here. This was over a year ago, and I have no idea what you're talking about, but I'd really like to know because you're really shocking me with the implication that I might have somehow called Dragon Ball Super the best anything.

[@piccolo9365]

You were talking about reactions of people saying that this is the best Dragon Ball has ever been

[@MistareFusion]

Oh, phew. I thought you were saying I said that, which is pretty much the antithesis of this video. But while it might have been in-the-moment hype that has died down, people definitely were saying that at the time. I can't understand why, but they were.

[@7sN1412]

I really wanted Krillin to win the tournament, it was so obvious that he will be the first to lose, but I thought maybe they would realize how obvious it was and shock me at the end.

[@herobrinesblog]

This arch had so much fucking potential. But i only got super excited once in a while, mostly, not during the tournament, but actually during that pre-tournament and some training and chill out episodes. I really liked the "9 weeks of peace" and all those other things before

[@BelartWright]

I enjoy your perspective, good sir. I really wish they did better with the ideas and characters they had. The concept of the ToP was pretty much wasted, but there were a ton of great moments, I must admit.

[@adambraun1990]

I was surprised to actually see your face. I’m used to watching your (excellent) Dragon Ball Dissection videos.

[@d-manthecaptain1382]

Me and my dad watched this after the series went on break, so we got to watch it at our own pace, as a result, how long it went on didn't bother us too much since we didn't have to wait for them to air.

[@terrydubuisson4209]

What are your thoughts on the other arcs

[@TerryB01]

I would have liked it had Yamcha taken 17's place. He gets knocked out early in and stays in the tournament under a pile of rocks and then comes in and saves the day by being the last guy in.

[@PlanetZoidstar]

Soooo....What was accomplished with the ToP arc exactly?

[@spartanq7781]

Fights fights and more fights. That is all. There was no real stakes. Since we knew from the outset everything would be fine. Since it does take place before the end of the original series.

[@mrbust999]

I feel stupid for caring when the other universes got erased, all because they could just get wished back by the dragon balls, fucking stupid, they should've all just stayed dead.

[@cheesydawg371]

The arc, like all of Super, felt safe and boxed in as a story. It feels like nothing really mattered in the end aside from Goku's new form. The main characters weren't progressed or changed from this. This wasn't like seeing Gohan have to step up the plate on Namek, Muten Roshi passing the torch to the next generation after the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai, or Goku paying for his actions at the end of Cell. I mean some characters did have arcs in this story like 17 and the U6 Saiyan girls but who knows if we'll ever see them again. For the main cast they were the same people going in that they were coming out. Dragon Ball has had a problem with characters standing around and not really doing anything before, but here every single character is set up with their own dedicated episode(s). It was exciting at first but retroactively is very frustrating when they don't amount to anything.

[@brabbit330]

Hey fusion! What are your thoughts on the whole “Piccolo is a better father figure than Goku” idea that people throw out? Since you are more familiar with the manga and original source material, I’m curious to see your take on how it handled the relationship between Goku and Gohan, vs Piccolo and Gohan.

[@didgeridude8430]

Dang I wish I can go to your panel at Kamehacon!

[@franjaff6919]

I haven't caught up to Super yet (got to the start of the Future Trunks arc and I've honestly got no interest in continuing right now), but "missed opportunities" is exactly how I felt when I saw Resurrection F, so I understand exactly where you're coming from. It's really a shame, because despite my flaws with it Battle Of Gods felt like a promising start to a new series.

[@KetenReviews]

Yeah... I thought the arc was good for fanservice only. Otherwise, it did next to nothing with its premise, wasn't well written at all and had a pretty terrible ending. lol Even so, it's still the closest thing to a "good" arc Super has for me, all the other arcs either bored me or annoyed me.

[@Googaliemoogalie]

Keten I feel the same way, why else would the Muten Roshi be a main fighter if not for fan service? Also I hated the other arcs, this one was better

[@zannrebel1217]

Keten Don't confuse terrible ending with generic ending

[@KetenReviews]

It's both.

[@GeteMachine]

All modern dragonall is fanservice, but as a continuation off Z was a very cheap one.

[@Humorless_Wokescold]

Eh. If a professional product is going to be heavy on the fanservice it should at least surpass the better fanworks the fandom has produced. Which I think where most of the resentment comes from. Super frequently falls short of what's already been done.

[@dRac_XII]

Might've been cool to see a fighter from universe (x) secretly being from another universe

[@rafaelandrade7627]

Are those red, blue and yellow boxes behind you a Star Trek collection?

[@canmattfield]

I too love your opinions!

[@liambrown3249]

I gotta say, what if this introduction to 13 new universes was written by Oda, or Togashi? How insanely different would things have been? Right now those universes are all near useless throwaways, but in the hands of those 2 legends i could imagine the potential compared to this shit littered kitty pool. Obviously 2 very different authors on a show that they haven't made but an interesting thought nonetheless.

[@brandonpinkney-gadelha8236]

That was a really long advertisement for his Kamehacon booth.

[@carlox3002]

What?! A human being with his own opinion that doesn't necessarily match the majority?! *Shocking*

[@anjetto1]

Did you see those videos of the big, out door viewing parties for the last 2 episodes of super? Filmed in chili I think. Hundreds of people. It's amazing. Made the finale much better.

[@TheHylden]

This level of anger toward something in the series I felt only in the Resurrection of F arc. I never had a reaction like that before in DB, and it almost made me stop forever watching from then on in. I liked a lot of the tournament, and the end, though I do completely agree that it could have been so, so much better.

[@DBZMacky]

Nani? Lance doesn't upload! Jk man, good to hear your opinion on DBS.

[@anrew9368]

I interpreted 18's line as shock at 17's evolution throughout the story. 17 was generally self or at least family-centered, and the idea that he would wish back every Universe instead of making a selfish wish surprised 18. Moreover, he did that on his own accord, not needing a cue or anything.

[@ZigTheHunter]

It was still worded horribly, she could have made a sarcastic remark or be proud of his selflessness, not be shocked that he did something that anyone that wasn't completely heartless, like Frieza(and apparently Jiren), would do. He is a wild-life protector who doesn't even kill the poachers who repeatedly attack the island, he clearly values life, and sure 18 didn't know everything, but it was still an incredibly stupid question.

[@anrew9368]

@ZigTheHunter But the 17 we've come to know isn't the 17 18 knew. 18 knew the reckless, childish, self-centered 17 of Z who didn't care about anyone outside of the three amigos and even then refused to listen to both 16 and 18 when they told him not to fight Cell. For a real life example, if you were friends with a guy who is anti-social and a misanthrope in general in High School and then heard that they were seriously injured saving a kid from getting run over, wouldn't you be surprised and shocked over the fact that they did something that the person you knew wouldn't have? I feel like 18 hasn't grasped that 17 has changed so drastically. After all, they haven't been too close since the Cell Arc. I understand your point though, and I respect it.

[@zenaairaleroh]

Gohan being a focus character was a missed opportunity; I loved how the stakes gave him tension with his dad, and I also liked his fight with Obuni (the fighter with the locket)

[@cheesydawg371]

While I don't think it was good as a while I did enjoy skimming through the arc on Hulu for interesting bits and pieces (I really like the dub voices for a lot of the characters). Plus it did exactly what it sought out to do, made me buy stuff... Kefla is so much fun to play in FighterZ.

[@dejangendic]

Thanks for you deep insight :) It was a nice surprise in my notifications, Lance. I share your opinion on most of what you covered, but can not agree with your final statement. As dissapointing as the ToP arc became, I can never say the Beerus, RoF and U6 tournament arcs are better. Those 3 are just dreadful in every imaginable way, and at least the ToP did some memorable things.

[@KittSpiken]

Tournament of power is significantly more enjoyable if you only watch one out of every three or so episodes. I watched probably a third of it and found it sufficiently okay.

[@Leonix13]

If they wanted to do the whole "he's not dead" thing they should of used Yamcha for it instead of using it in episode 70.