135: Massing Roundtable - Mike Israetel & Eric Helms

This is the Massing roundtable. Dr. Mike Israetel and Dr. Eric Helms get into a discussion around the general principles of getting big!. This implies things like rate of weight gain, body fat %, insulin sensitivity and much more!
Timestamps:
01:45 Eric's change of perspective on the rate of weight gain since Abel's podcast
04:50 Mike responds to Eric's view
11:15 Mike continuous talking about slower rate gain for more advanced lifters?
13:56 Eric gets back on Mike's question
16:03 Steve chimes in and shares his experience of the rate of weight gain
16:58 Mike admits that his former recommendations were wrong
20:05 Eric talks about rate of weight gain for female athletes
23:20 Furthermore, Eric speaks about a cut-off point with gaining and high body fat percentage on p-ratio and muscle gain
26:39 Mike's take on the same topic
33:47 Eric gets back on comments made by Mike
35:13 Mike follows up with his thoughts
37:47 Eric then talks about that if you've never been obese, gaining fat cells a concern?
41:05 Mike's take on the matter
43:18 Considering pushing to higher BF levels to increase muscle mass
46:10 Mike's take on the matter
52:01 Eric responds to Mike's view on the amount of weight you want to put on
54:22 Eric get's into the topic around Insulin sensitivity
57:45 Mike shares his opinion on insulin sensitivity
01:04:28 Mike's take on the argument some people make in justifying methodologies/supplements to get minor % out of this
01:08:52 Eric's take on the matter and carb timing
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[@ReviveStronger]

01:45 Eric's change of perspective on the rate of weight gain since Abel's podcast 04:50 Mike responds to Eric's view 11:15 Mike continuous talking about slower rate gain for more advanced lifters? 13:56 Eric gets back on Mike's question 16:03 Steve chimes in and shares his experience of the rate of weight gain 16:58 Mike admits that his former recommendations were wrong 20:05 Eric talks about rate of weight gain for female athletes 23:20 Furthermore, Eric speaks about a cut-off point with gaining and high body fat percentage on p-ratio and muscle gain 26:39 Mike's take on the same topic 33:47 Eric gets back on comments made by Mike 35:13 Mike follows up with his thoughts 37:47 Eric then talks about that if you've never been obese, gaining fat cells a concern? 41:05 Mike's take on the matter 43:18 Considering pushing to higher BF levels to increase muscle mass 46:10 Mike's take on the matter 52:01 Eric responds to Mike's view on the amount of weight you want to put on 54:22 Eric get's into the topic around Insulin sensitivity 57:45 Mike shares his opinion on insulin sensitivity 01:04:28 Mike's take on the argument some people make in justifying methodologies/supplements to get minor % out of this 01:08:52 Eric's take on the matter and carb timing

[@curtisc7630]

epic breakdown of a free-flowing conversation

[@Fazlifts]

42:05 Jabba impressions

[@IMR_Seb]

The way comrade Israetel goes from science to meathead in the same sentence is beautiful. @11:48

[@ReviveStronger]

He's living the sport as well as the science - Pascal

[@NopeNope78]

Come on guys. 10k views and only 500 likes but I know 99.9% of you LOVED this podcast. Show some love and support! 💪

[@ReviveStronger]

You're absolutely right ;) - Pascal

[@grizzlymanverneteil4443]

RP is in the wespons business. Mike helped build DEEZ GUNNZZ.

[@ReviveStronger]

He has the biggest ones - Pascal

[@MeZoRH]

I see Dr Mike and Dr Eric, I instantly stop everything and watch

[@ReviveStronger]

This! - Pascal

[@TejasTeaches]

You should have 150k subscribers, not 15k!

[@ReviveStronger]

I mean, we wouldn't complain about it ;P - Pascal

[@vasred4265]

@@ReviveStronger Ever thought of advertising your channel on other subreddits, like r/bodybuilding, r/fitness, r/xxfitness, etc.?

[@ReviveStronger]

@@vasred4265 never really :S If you're bringing it up, I'd assume it's worth it?

[@TheWazzaapp]

@@ReviveStronger Sure it is man. They will appreciate science based channel with clear-no bullshit information. Give it a try and we will be there to help :D

[@ssdabel]

This was brilliant! Thank you for the shoutout too! :)

[@ReviveStronger]

Always Abel! - Pascal

[@ieatkwark6318]

Mike's jokes on Intermittent Fasting made me laugh like a girl

[@ReviveStronger]

Hehe, savage - Pascal

[@AdamIsMyNameO]

Oh god the Jaba impression from Mike killed me, hahaha

[@shueysjc]

The only reason I would ever hit the thumbs down button on these videos is because they have to come to an end! Gotta love these round table discussions! Thank you Steve!

[@ReviveStronger]

Haha, yes!! - Pascal

[@logand5996]

I like the ab rule for if you should bulk or not. I think I store more fat in my love handles and low back though so they tend to stick around for a while. Also liked it when Mike called Steve a vampire

[@ReviveStronger]

I store most of my fat around the midsection, I hardly see any abs :'( - Pascal

[@copernicus99]

Great conversation. Mike is hilarious.

[@ReviveStronger]

He is^^ - Pascal

[@workoutunleashed]

Mike's massgainer most likely contains protein, carbs and the tears of 100 virgins!!!

[@ReviveStronger]

I wouldn't be surprised if it does - Pascal

[@tomwaitsfornoone1182]

still waiting for my strawberries, skim milk, and suicide t shirt ;)

[@zhengpaul1456]

always providing good and evidnece based content in the evidence based community!

[@ReviveStronger]

Zheng, happy you've enjoyed it - Pascal

[@6maxgrinder549]

Muscle loss is grossly over exaggerated. It's almost impossible to lose muscle if you are at 10% body fat or higher.

[@ReviveStronger]

Agree! - Pascal

[@chainsawvsgod384]

Mike is so damn hilarious.

[@ReviveStronger]

Haha, he really is^^ - Pascal

[@cbryant4228]

What’s in the “mass gainer” shake Mike? Hard to believe it’d be an over-the-counter.

[@grizzlymanverneteil4443]

Superdrol

[@ReviveStronger]

Everything you can put in there - Pascal

[@Fazlifts]

Depends what counter you go to eh

[@icejumperke]

RS SQUAAAAAD! 🙌 Thank you for this gem again! 🔥💪

[@ReviveStronger]

Merry Christmas my friend! - Pascal

[@icejumperke]

Thank you brother! I wish you two all thr best, too! - Wezz

[@segason6]

52:27 Alberto Nunez is 5’6?!?

[@ReviveStronger]

I thought he's 5'9 - Pascal

[@davethedm]

Yannis Karrer you’re a moron

[@davethedm]

Revive Stronger I’ve seen him in person and would say that is pretty accurate

[@chinoloc916]

yea he is more 5ft 9. I used to train with him.

[@Balonishell]

Best content on KZbin. Just started lifting... so glad to have a basic understanding of MRV. Dr Israetel has the best analogies, always! Noobie gains in the house! Lol

[@ReviveStronger]

Lots to discover and catch up on then ;) - Pascal

[@yohannesmathyasjr4947]

Fuckin mike 😂😂😂 well done, once again

[@ReviveStronger]

Haha, thanks! - Pascal

[@lcj8909]

Love this episode! Dr. Mike killing it with debunking GDA use by naturals and claiming it's a god send. Keep it up Steve big fan of your work

[@ReviveStronger]

Thanks man! - Pascal

[@798185xz]

yeah, I have experience that once my bw above 90~91kg on the scale, and I continue to push it to 95kg. My massing just become a pure fat gain at the end of massing phrase.

[@ReviveStronger]

Been there, done that - Pascal

[@ColinGough]

Between this and the interview on the Sustainable Self Development podcast, this is going to be a great Saturday

[@ReviveStronger]

Hope it turned out to be a good one ;) - Pascal

[@reimestani5010]

What is your opinion on weighted dips for chest? And using Weighted calisthenics with dr mikes concept of hypetrophy with mrv, mev, and mav? And can you still mass with it?

[@ReviveStronger]

If you apply the basic principles of progressive overload, sure thing - Pascal

[@gpness]

Using the info from RP to write a new program, and I came across these gems. Way to go dude, quality of guests is unreal. Merry Christmas, Happy New Year!

[@ReviveStronger]

Grant! Hope you'll enjoy all of the stuff we have here for you ;) - Pascal

[@nicolasdileo1061]

It is really damn hard to follow mike with his talk and his mic as an italian person

[@ReviveStronger]

Haha, it's Philly-Italian xD - Pascal

[@VEGASENTER]

thank you guys :) and happy new year Pascal, Steve and Miguel!

[@ReviveStronger]

Thanks a tonne Vega and you too! - Pascal

[@joshwilliams6517]

Mike is a comedian lol

[@ReviveStronger]

Thanks for watching! - Coach Jess

[@AlexanderDemergis]

Is it more optimal for buildimg muscle, to maintain a higher bf, 18-20%, for a few years, then cut down to your desired weight after that long to see progress, just to go back up? I hope that makes sense, thanks!

[@ReviveStronger]

It depends on the individual. If you can perform your very best at a slightly higher bf level, it may be beneficial for you - Pascal

[@chamelious]

One of the best eps yet, fantastic.

[@ReviveStronger]

Chamelious, much appreciated! - Pascal

[@rndst6]

Mike is hilarious 🤣 😆 😂

[@segason6]

47:25 to 48:00

[@ReviveStronger]

Hehehe - Pascal

[@jordanholcombe9153]

Steve, should beginner/intermediate lifters who run a cut lasting 2-3 months, aiming to loose about 15-20lbs and getting from 15-20. Closer to the 12-14 percent range, run a maintenance phase after? AND should this maintanence.phase.consist of low volume higher intensity training like I have heard mike suggest before?

[@ReviveStronger]

You "should" do nothing. It may be beneficial, especially after a prolonged cutting phase. And yes, lower volume would probably set yourself up quite nicely for the hypertrophy block - Pascal

[@cannonbrunsvik7370]

Love the round tables, especially with these two. Keep it up!!

[@ReviveStronger]

Cheers cannon! - Pascal

[@JohnSmith-dy3ck]

Great stuff. What about for a beginner though or somebody coming back from a longer term lay off? Would they be better off just eating at maintenance and working from MEV to half way or 2/3 of the way to MRV and shooting for a recomp sort of effect before deciding to specifically mass or cut?

[@ReviveStronger]

Yeah, take your time and work your way up. Everything is more stimulus than during the layoff - Pascal

[@grizzlymanverneteil4443]

Okay, dumb question. I know you can only get a leucine spike every 3 hours or so and the consumption of proteins more frequently than every 2 or three hours can prevent those spikes. Would the protein in rice prevent these spikes from happening? Lets say i get in 60 or 70 grams of protein at 1400 and 1700. Would the protein in a cup or 2 of rice at 1500 prevent a spike at 1700?

[@ReviveStronger]

You got the flaw in the theory. The refractory period is right now, more a theory than a true thing. Thing is, food will be digested and constant amino-acid delivery occurs at the same time. In that sense, the refractory period theory doesn't hold...same as with yours and many other examples. - Pascal

[@FacelessProjects]

Thanks for this video. I quite enjoy hearing where people part ways due to insufficient answers (either due to a lack of studies or because they cannot be tested).

[@ReviveStronger]

Absolutely agree! And that makes things so interesting and helps getting closer to the truth! - Pascal

[@benjoo]

Amazing roundtable!

[@ReviveStronger]

Thanks Benjoo! - Pascal

[@Youngstomata]

Hello from Myrtle Beach 🌴!

[@ReviveStronger]

Urghs, and we're in rainy Europe.. - Pascal

[@The10Daniel10]

Ho ho ho, merry fucking Christmas!!!! I'm so pumped for this, I think I'm gonna use this as my leg day motivation!!!

[@ReviveStronger]

Ouuuw yeah! - Pascal

[@The10Daniel10]

@@ReviveStronger can you please upload it to Spotify? It was so fire I want to add this to my workout playlist 😝

[@jamesdashper1316]

Gaining at 1% of BW per month is really hard to track if you’re actually doing anything. Most people experience fluctuations of 1% Bw from having a little salt on one meal

[@ReviveStronger]

That's why you wanna be tracking the weekly averages across weeks and months! Thanks for watching! - Coach Jess

[@BrandonMicheals]

So based on what mike is saying 10 - 15%bf go ahead and go into a slow mass gain to make sure you don't gain too much fat. Bulk until about 20% bf then cut down to 10 - 15% again rinse wash repeat.

[@ReviveStronger]

That's pretty solid, then again anything can be individualized depending on other factors but that's a good rule of thumb yup! - Coach Jess

[@rndst6]

When I won my procard, my body fat percentage registered around 17 percent 3 weeks out... At 12 percent, I look ripped... My bmi always registers around 30 or 31!

[@braxtonstory9553]

I have to play Dr. Mike at 0.75 speed lol

[@ReviveStronger]

Haha, don't be ashamed of it. We've all been there ;P - Pascal

[@z750slattery8]

Great episode. Wish u had found this channel last year

[@ReviveStronger]

Just dig through it now ;) - Pascal

[@Fossilized-cryptid]

48:23 lmao them boys should minicut to see them gains

[@ReviveStronger]

Haha, thanks for watching! - Coach Jess

[@J90JAM]

Always love the Mike & Eric episodes, different approaches but well debated and a lot of takeaways from both sides.

[@Fossilized-cryptid]

in this podcast mike looks like baby yoda

[@ReviveStronger]

Massing power haha! - Coach Jess

[@muhammadsaad4373]

But but alberto is 5'9 i think

[@ReviveStronger]

I think he is - Pascal

[@ErnstEric]

Mike is absolutely hilarious

[@ReviveStronger]

He absolutely is - Pascal

[@KnownAsCLH]

Terrible things will happen if one eats carbs on non high carb day.

[@ReviveStronger]

I don't even dare to find out :S - Pascal

[@utubebrowseupload]

I heard thats what killed lyle's sister

[@grizzlymanverneteil4443]

Carbs will literally summon the devil to fat you.

[@cyberpumpdotcom]

Nicely done again Steve!

[@ReviveStronger]

Appreciate it Cyberpump ;) - Pascal

[@jw9581]

OMG😩

[@ReviveStronger]

Hopefully in a positive sense - Pascal

[@jw9581]

Revive Stronger Hahah of course! Always a pleasure to listen to these

[@alerosso91]

47:45 Mike had me dying! lol

[@ReviveStronger]

Classic Mike :D - Pascal

[@TheMr0450]

I rewound @59:49 like 10 times to laugh my lungs out at the 'metformin for natties; joke.. Mike is a clown man.. hahaha.. this is your best episode Steve.. of the dozen i have seen soo far.. these two champs set things on fire. Kudos.

[@ReviveStronger]

Thanks for watching :) - Coach Jess

[@Fossilized-cryptid]

42:05 lmaooo

[@ReviveStronger]

xD

[@gamerchristina1079]

💪💪❤️❤️‼️

[@ReviveStronger]

Thank you! - Coach Jess

[@jsmithes]

Yaaaaas 💪🎅

[@ReviveStronger]

Yaaas Yaaaas! - Pascal

[@amandatan5043]

Appreciate bringing in the panelists’ perspectives on female listeners.

[@ReviveStronger]

In the future we'll do our best to bring on more females on the podcast (we have two roundtables with ladies already, and we'll keep improving!). Thanks for watching! - Coach Jess

[@joshlienhardt3619]

Brilliant convo

[@ReviveStronger]

Thanks for tuning in Josh! - Pascal

[@joshlienhardt3619]

@@ReviveStronger I love for you to ask Mike about his thoughts on Charles poliquinas he is one of the most renowned strength coaches and work with many drug-free athletes and what Mikes take is on his earn your carbs theory , which is basically anybody over 10% body fat shouldn't have carbs but at 10% body fat you are much more insulin sensitive better at digesting carbs and utilizing insulin in a steroid hormone type fashion naturally?????

[@grizzlymanverneteil4443]

I have one helluva time gaining 2 pounds a month. Its 5 pounds or nothing. Would 5 in a month followed by maintenance a good idea for those of us that suck at tracking small weight gainz?

[@ReviveStronger]

Good idea...well, what are the options and then, what do you feel good with? - Pascal

[@grizzlymanverneteil4443]

I guess just continue forward in that manner. I suppose I could purchase a scale and get more exact in my measurements of portions.

[@yazctr]

This was a great episode as always!! I was just a bit disappointed nobody touched on being in a good place metabolicly to start a cut, especially for us fat guys! at 250lbs and 2.5yrs of consistent lifting, i am having to eat 2200 calories at do a fair bit of cardio to lose any worthwhile amount of fat. However there was a time at 230lbs i was cutting on 3000calories, same training routine and less cardio. Im confused?!?!?

[@pedro_santos]

Did you have changes in your life? for example, you need to walk less, due to the fact that you changed the place of your work, you bought a car, etc...? sometimes changes like that make a lot of difference...

[@yazctr]

@@pedro_santos nope, the steps per day is same. But i was experiencing all the things that most atheletes say about, sweating from TEF and if i had a big cheat meal i would sweat it out. I think my nutriet partitioning was just better. Now i don't experience any TEF or any sweating from big cheat meals etc.

[@ReviveStronger]

Nutrient partitioning has not such a drastic impact on your metabolism and the way your system makes use of fuel. Even though you say nothing has changed drastically in your life, the likelihood is very high that something (or many small things) contribute to this. - Pascal

[@griffingeode]

3000 vs 2200 cal diet ( 73%) is usually a more drastic life change than going from 250 to 230 lbs (92%). I'm not saying how many calories you should consume, just those 2 diets are quite different (if maintained for months), and those 2 weights are similar.