Should Christians Rethink Original Sin? With Clay Jones

I like to talk about the big questions of faith, progressive Christianity, and skeptical claims against the reliability of the Bible and the truthfulness of Christianity.
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[@AmeeraG242]

I am just greatful God wanted to save us. So much mercy and grace

[@GinKirk7256]

I say all the time when i hear folks enthusiastically declare, “Peace is possible,” just look at your own family and explain to me how peace is possible among our privileged planet’s seven + billion inhabitants! Much of the friction is caused by idealists and realists butting heads!

[@chardo24]

Ginny you are a pessimistic woman.

[@Hotel_Chuck]

I say something similar. We can’t even solve the stray dog problem… do you really think we s can do anything of merit? We absolutely need Christ.

[@debraelramey5254]

"Blank slate" is a loose translation of the medieval Latin term tabula rasa-literally, "scraped tablet." It is commonly attributed to the philosopher John Locke (1632-1704), though in fact he used a different metaphor.

[@debraelramey5254]

@Clay Jones Thank you. I thoroughly enjoyed this elaboration, and mostly your thoughts on original sin during this episode. Look forward to reading more of your work. God bless.

[@gerinja]

I highly agree with Clay Jones. God bless my brothers and sisters in Christ. Amen

[@CharlieKraken]

Amen!

[@bornbucket]

A lot of virtue signalling comes down to avoiding being cancelled. One's reputation is important to keep above board to ensure a steady stream of income. As Clay points out, "It's their calculations towards self-interest." Thank you for another great episode. This has been very informative for my faith and future career. ☺️

[@LoriLev1107]

Before I became a Christian when I was in high school and college, saving the planet was the cause of my life. It was the way I was going to make a dent in the world--how I would "live on" even after I died. Jesus turned all that around in such a gentle way. It hit me that my perspective had completely changed about two years after I was saved, and I couldn't even tell you exactly how He did it. He just changed me.

[@travissharon1536]

That's a beautiful story, but the fact is that the "church father" Augustine came up with original sin based on a mistranslation of the Bible. All men sin except Jesus, but if Hebrews 2 17-18 is true then original sin a serious blasphemy because it makes Jesus sinful. I'm not progressive, I try to be hyper reform, like student of Paul reform, and I can't see Original Sin being anything but a doctrine of the devil.

[@TeachMeLordGod]

​@@travissharon1536I understand original sin as something that cursed us after our sin. We all are selfish deep down and full of errors in everyday life. I would agree with you fully if those raised up 'correctly' never sin or make mistakes and it is the ones not raised in the word that inherent it, but no, everyone isn't perfect and everyone is corrupt. That is why we can't trust our own understanding but trust the counsil of God instead. The evil comes from within, Jesus even points this out too.

[@travissharon1536]

@Z3r0 H4n0n!-Kun I don't disagree with you on anything but inheritance of Sin. It's a doctrine of Demons. The ground was cursed for mankind's sake. Death leads us to God. The doctrine of Original Sin means that all babies that die would go to hell unless you believe in Augustinian predestination, then only a portion of babies would go to hell. If the Bible said that was true, I would believe it, but Original Sin is a result of Augustine's musings, and was based on a faulty translation and his roots in Gnosticism.

[@baronreed8131]

@Travis Sharon Your Theology is seriously flawed and denies the virgin birth and deity of Christ. Augustine may have been considered a church father within theRoman Catholic church but he was not by a long shot a church father. The church fathers had first been the Apostles and then the disciples of the Apostles and when they died off there were no more church fathers remaining. That is when it began going off track.

[@travissharon1536]

@Baron Reed Your comment sounds like we agree more than disagree. I put church father in quotes, because I don't believe Augustine was actually one. I think the doctrine of Original Sin is heresy. I don't deny the Virgin birth, I have determined to accept the Bible wherever it leads. Hebrews says that Christ was born like us in every way. That either means we are not born stained by sin, or the Bible is wrong....

[@pattihawks353]

This video came from Mellisa’s channel; so glad to watch and listen to clear Gospel Truth, very well defined. Thank you.

[@TheJojodancer2]

Brilliant, perfect, thank you both so much. I hope/want to share this and other vids to friends and family 🙏🏼

[@LKlady399]

this video is so relevant to what's going on in our culture. Very thought provoking, Thank you. We need videos like this.

[@doxieherblitz]

I grew up Reformed. I spent years avoiding people because people are inherently, aren't safe, and you can't trust them. I've learned that the neighbor who stops to help isn't up to no good. There is a danger in emphasizing our sinfulness.

[@toughbiblepassages9082]

Where in Reformed Theology is the doctrine of “not trusting people” or “avoiding people”? It sounds like you are using your own hangups to project onto a doctrine that teaches no such thing.. ironic how you blame reformed theology in an effort to not just own your own faults.

[@kennymacdonald5313]

Sounds silly. Who put that idea into your head?

[@jambox9919]

Great interview. One of my favorites

[@andreahintz5094]

I love the simple, straightforward explanations and examples given in this video!

[@weedeeohguy]

We Need to hear more about this.

[@notdeadyetagain1]

Natural Sins (selfishness) are written on our hearts and souls: There was never a child that had to go to school, and study impatience, deceitfulness, selfishness, pride, greed, anger, self-will, disrespect, gluttony, covetousness, and foolishness. Repentant hearts need to be taught to be aware of sin, and be contrite, while admitting to sin, and continuously turning away from our known and unknown natural and unnatural selfishness. For this education to forgiveness and grace never ends here, for no human but for one, will be perfect from sin.

[@thegodlogic3844]

Who wrote it on your heart and soul? Considering that it is your first life as per Christianity, it can only be God. So,, God writes sinfulness on your heart and soul and labels you as a born sinner. So, God is the source of all evil as per Christianity. So, the truth is each individual had previous lives and has made himself the way he is through his ideas, practices.

[@notdeadyetagain1]

@@thegodlogic3844 Selfish Evil is due to our rebellious freewill choices, and not to follow the truth in God's objective moral rules, of ethical truths; and God granted us infinite mistakes but limited free will in power, but due to our betrayal towards God, in that we delusionally believe we can be our own Gods, and that is our selfish nature, our selfish sinful freewill now, to ignore the ethical truths God granted us. With God granted freewill, we are not God's puppets! It doesn't take a lifetime, to understand this and get into God's grace, with our innate and chosen sinnful selfish natures, with our freewill. You have God granted loving freewill to repent or not! Make all the horrible selfish acts you want, but God's truth is about an ethical loving life, and judgment in the end, into heaven or hell, due to our own freewill, to obey the truths of God or not. If humans built ethically upon previous lives, the world would not be the evil place that it is now, and all throughout history. This exposes the fallacy and delusion of karma and reincarnation, and heaven is earthy and not spiritual. If you haven't noticed, our world is run and ruled by elite money and power hoarders, consumerism, materialism, pollutions from humans, violence, coercion and wars. Humans are the most invasive, destructive species on this planet, with our selfish narcissistic free wills, in Not following God's ethical loving truths and laws, to freeing us from our narcissistic self idolatry free wills.

[@raysackett7660]

Bible says to be perfect just as our Heavenly Father! You go against scripture when you say only one can be perfect.

[@notdeadyetagain1]

@@raysackett7660Only Jesus was perfect. Humans are innately selfish, sinful, and are guilty until proven innocent, by grace. I can never boast to say that I am perfect.

[@notdeadyetagain1]

@@raysackett7660 1 John 1:8-10 If we go around bragging, “We have no sin,” then we are fooling ourselves and are strangers to the truth. But if we own up to our sins, God shows that He is faithful and just by forgiving us of our sins and purifying us from the pollution of all the bad things we have done. If we say, “We have not sinned,” then we depict God as a liar and show that we have not let His word find its way into our hearts.

[@wiggydebates3944]

Thank you so much for this video. I posted about it (and shared) on Facebook!

[@jackjones3657]

He makes a good point; 'utopia is only possible if people are basically good.' The Bible clarifies this for us throughout pointing to our fallen, self-serving nature from birth. Anyone who works with children realizes quickly they need constant guidance and correction due to their persistently wayward natures, as it is with ALL of us.

[@rahr11]

An illuminating conversation!! Thank you :)

[@hoytlucas]

"The depravity of man is at once the most empirically verifiable reality but at the same time the most intellectually resisted fact.". Malcolm Muggeridge

[@jordandthornburg]

Depravity of man, yes, inborn inherent depravity of man, no. That’s very different.

[@josephbachota]

My understanding Eastern Orthodox just reject original guilt, so they believe we inherited the sin nature from Adam but not his guilt

[@JamesRichardWiley]

There was no Adam or Adam's guilt unless you say so.

[@jjphank]

Read the Bible to get out of Eastern Orthodox Church! they are following more human traditions and fantasies just like the Pharisees did, than they are the Bible! As a result the Eastern Orthodox, are wrong about the Bible in many ways!

[@stellarjayatkins4749]

@@JamesRichardWiley what?

[@yabits]

The Torah -- which includes Genesis (Beresheit) -- was revealed by the Creator of the Universe to the assembled children of Israel -- 2 million plus -- at Mount Sinai. (The greatest mass revelation in human history.) The Eternal Torah was NOT "divinely inspired" as much as directly DICTATED from the Most High to Moses. If you do not believe that, you can throw Christianity away. Jews do NOT buy into "original sin" for a mind-blowing reason that would be clear if any came to know the REAL meaning of Adam and Eve -- and Eden. (Orthodox Jews know this...)

[@yabits]

@Clay Jones - If Jesus was indeed "raised," he did not follow the commandments of the One True G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. A supernatural event/miracle such as this HAD to be reported to the priesthood in the Temple for verification. When lepers were cured, Jesus told them to show themselves to the priests -- in accordance with the Law. Moreover, Jesus was telling people that the one sign they could expect was the sign of Jonah. (Matthew 12:38...) If he was true to his word, he could have presented himself at the Temple after he was raised to GREAT fanfare. But Clay, you and I both know this did not happen. And so a great counter-story had to be created around a dead "messiah."

[@GmaJoKeepingitReal]

This was an excellent breakdown of this subject with doctrinally sound support. Thank you..

[@travissharon1536]

Original Sin is the reason Catholics worship Mary. It is heresy, all men become sinful, but a baby is a blank slate and innocent. The Bible tells me so.

[@TeachMeLordGod]

​@@travissharon1536they think she is sinless but she is 100% human and 0% divine. They needlessly lift her up and pray to her as if she could do something... I'm greatful that Jesus came to be but I don't see the jews worshipping Abraham's mother since she birthed him and he had wonderful faith with God.

[@JonathanGrandt]

But no biblically sound support. Fail.

[@JonathanGrandt]

@@travissharon1536the Catholics are consistent in their error at least. Protestants suffer from major cognitive dissonance.

[@travissharon1536]

@JonathanGrandt Protestants are pretty diverse. I've learned that Catholics do not worship Mary, but the doctrine of Original Sin did create some odd quirks in regards to Mary. Protestants are all over the Map, Calvinist Protestants have a consistent system, but it's technically an anti-gospel by my reckoning. That's why I praise God that most Calvinists are not consistent. I think if I had to choose one of the big 3 denominations, I'd choose orthodox. As it stands, I just battle my bodies predisposition to sin and believe the Bible in its entirety.

[@StaceeMassey]

This was a really good chat 👍

[@lloyd6683]

This was so interesting!!

[@Mia-xw1nh]

Great talk. Loved this man's book on evil which I read a couple of years ago, have never forgotten it.

[@marydibene3119]

Very good interview.

[@stevensimonyi-gindele7000]

Great interview. Clay Jones makes great quotes.

[@leonellopez8301]

Great Video!

[@Svetty00]

That argument of putting two babies in one room with only one toy to show that they are not inherently good is a really compelling one! Thanks for this interview Alisa and Clay.

[@simonskinner1450]

Don't you think temptation leads to sin rather inherent evil. If Adam and Eve were not good why have temptation? It is the overcomers in Revelation that go to heaven.

[@Svetty00]

@@simonskinner1450 I think if we were inherently good, like Jesus Christ, we would be able to resist every temptation like He did in the desert.

[@simonskinner1450]

@@Svetty00 We can resist or overcome temptation as John puts it, and we must. Clay isisleading people as in Romans 3 Paul was not quoting God, but a prophet talking only to his sinful audience. What did find compelling in the argument of the two babies, as a parable what does it mean? People choose to do good from self interest, in that I agree with Clay, as eternal life is a good motivation.

[@Svetty00]

@@simonskinner1450 Of course we can resist temptation, but we can't resist every temptation. The parable shows that babies aren't able to resist every temptation like Christ did. The Bible tells us that our flesh succumbs to temptation even though the Holy Spirit within us helps us to resist much better. After judgement day, when we are no longer in the fleshly bodies we inherited from Adam and Eve, we will be able to resist every temptation. I think that by definition of prophet in The Bible, those are the words of God. If not, then Paul would have referred to him as a false prophet.

[@simonskinner1450]

@@Svetty00 Well Jesus had to resist every temptation as he sanctified himself. God offers the choice death and evil, or life and good. Good is possible amongst unbelievers also, but not being under the law they are a law to themselves. It is s shame when a good person is not in this religion.

[@austinrumpel2281]

Love this. Gets down to the root of the issue.

[@inchristalone25]

So good! Really loved this talk.

[@travissharon1536]

Hebrews 2:18-19 makes Original Sin a very serious heresy. It was invented by a guy more removed from the Church fathers than Bernie Sanders is from the founding fathers of America. Augustine came up.with it from a bad translation.

[@travissharon1536]

All men still develop sinful nature, but original sin is the reason they did infant baptism, and started worshipping marry.

[@inchristalone25]

@@travissharon1536 Hebrews 2:18 says this: "Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted." how is that in reference to original sin?

[@travissharon1536]

@@inchristalone25 Oof my mistake. It's hebrew 2:17-18, 17 is the more important, it says Christ was made like his brethren in all things to be a high priest and true propitiation. Christ was fully man, Original sin the doctrine says that babies are born guilty. If you think Christ was born guilty, or a sinner that creates serious theological problems. That's why the Catholic Church slowly developed Mary worship after the demonic confusion of Augustine. Because they had to make Mary sinless so Jesus didn't inherit sin from his mother.

[@inchristalone25]

@@travissharon1536 I agree we aren't born bad. We are under a curse though. We all have chosen to sin. It would explain then why young children would go to heaven because they have not yet understood what wrong behavior is.

[@kellyschroeder2210]

Good, good enough does not equal saved by the blood and grace of Jesus Christ. (Romans 3). Appreciate this illuminating and thought provoking conversation aiding some soul searching ✝️🙌🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻💞💙

[@RUT812]

We can never be good enough. We have all sinned & come short of God’s glory (Romans 3:23). That’s why we so desperately need Jesus to forgive us of our sins & save us.

[@Jesusandmentalhealth]

So good.

[@RainbowMan.]

Beautiful!! 😍

[@Howie672]

It’s not about blaming the environment it’s acceptance people make choices based on experience of their environment.

[@henrykkieltyka5063]

Super. Dziękuję.

[@EvidenceMinistries]

Nice book placement by Clay.

[@Jarrodjohn2007]

Note: @18:50 to 19:00 ‐ please understand that a rejection of Hell as a place of unending conscious torment does not _ipso facto_ mean one ia a "progressive Christian." There are mainline, respected scholars, like Dr. John Stott, who question the Biblicalness of the traditional understanding of Hell. Just as all women are human beings, but not all human beings are women, so also progressive Christians may reject the traditional understanding of Hell, but not everyone who rejects the traditional understanding of Hell as Biblical is a progressive Christian. (In the interests of full disclosure, I'm a Seventh-Day Adventist. Do with that as you will.)

[@Jarrodjohn2007]

@Clay Jones ok???

[@chrisamberdiaz]

I also want to clarify that when people speak of original sin, they are speaking of the innate nature of man not specifically of the first sin committed by Adam and Eve. When I hear people speaking of original sin, it helps to think about the word original as origin-al. -al, "relating to or of the kind of" and the word origin, "the point or place where something begins, arises, or is derived." Romans 5:12-21 is a good place to go to study about Original sin.

[@robertdouglas8895]

It's not man's innateness. We are created in the likeness of God. It's substituting false ideas for true ones. Forgive them for they know not what they do.

[@chrisamberdiaz]

@@robertdouglas8895 what do you mean when you say we are created in the likeness of God? Help me understand what you said or I think you insinuated in light of this passage in Ephesians: And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were BY NATURE children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:1‭-‬10 ESV

[@robertdouglas8895]

@@chrisamberdiaz Created in the imafe and likness of God was right. We are eternal spirit. Then Genesis goes off onto being created separate bodies. And ghe rest of the Bible tries to reconcile those two creations.. But they can't be done. Spirit is one with God. John 17.20+. Bodies are appearances that seem to be separate from each other and from God. But Jesus said appearances are nothing. "Judge not by appearance but judge by righteous judgment. Jesus said there is nothing in the world to trust. That is the other teacher, the master that always gives false ideas. If you love one, you'll hate the other. This world is the inheritance that the prodigal son makes up when he leaves God, which we all did. Bodies inherit what bodies have.. With God we inherit his truth. and love, which in reality we never left. The kingdom is still with. .

[@robertdouglas8895]

@@chrisamberdiaz There is nothing to "do" to have the inheritance we were created with. We were graced with it at creation. So what is the work we do to follow Christ. " I work and my father works." It's metanoia.

[@chrisamberdiaz]

@@robertdouglas8895 a lot of what you say is of your own authority. You have said nothing from God's authority. What you have done is to tear the word of God to shreds based on a feeling. I appeal to you to return to Christ because this is another gospel. You have ventured off into cleverly devised myths. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, 2 Timothy 4:3 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel- not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed. For am I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. For I would have you know, brothers, that the gospel that was preached by me is not man’s gospel. For I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ. Galatians 1:6‭-‬12 Repent and turn back to Christ. I implore you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God.

[@troypullen7469]

It amazes me that there are people that say they are Christians and minimize or do away with sin. If there is no sin, there is no need for a savior and hence no need for Christianity. I have no desire to minimize sin in my life at all. I want to recognize every sin in my life, actual or potential. I want all of the mercy and grace that God has to offer and as Jesus said: Luke 5:31-32 Jesus answered and said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” If you don't believe you have sin then Jesus Christ won't bother forgiving you since you don't need it. Good luck on judgement day!

[@stuartfear2205]

Highly Recommend Clay Jones' book, "Why Does God Allow Evil?"

[@Oreo_the_CattleDog]

Good video

[@cedarberryclanblackberryac6447]

So much in this video to grasp. The emptiness that people feel comes from not being what we were created to be, namely imagers of our creator. I would say it is important to explain to to nee converts; that they have signed up for the vocation of imaging the Most High. What would lead to studying about the Father and the Son. The simplest form of sin is selfishness, and yet most Christians miss that. NT Wright explains that if you are not imaging the Creator you are deconstructing your "humaness" and the "humaness" of those around you. 1 John defines sin as transgression of the law; but we need to understand that the law leads us to understanding the nature of our Creator, enabling us to better image Him.

[@princesinha1680]

I enjoyed this discussion, and agreed with most of it, but a few issues were not addressed: First, how does “fear of death” pertain to those who commit suicide, or those who want to commit suicide? Even though I’m a Christian, I’ve had thoughts of and desires to commit suicide throughout my life. To be honest, it’s not fear of death that has held me back, but rather fear of hell and fear of God's retribution (and how it may affect loved ones). For myself and many others who desire to take their own lives (or who eventually do), it’s the potential for freedom from pain and/or hopelessness that lures us. Not some purely selfish desire. Nor do we fear death--on the other hand, death appears inviting. Secondly, in regards to the issue of hell. To be honest, one of the main reasons I became, and remain, a Christian is fear of hell. How is God’s offer of salvation from hell and a heavenly reward not appealing to human selfish motives? And if we all desire (supposedly) to be immortal in some way, again, isn’t offering us eternal life appealing to our selfish nature? Would we all die in our sin and go to hell if God didn’t motivate us by appealing to our selfishness and desire for self-preservation? And in this sense then, is self-interest always inherently sinful? These are questions I’ve often pondered and which are rarely addressed by Christian preachers and scholars. Any responses would be welcome.

[@jumpergodesss6882]

As a Christian who definitely also struggled with suicidal thoughts what I've been taught is to look at things through God's eyes in a way. I don't remember the verse but Paul also wanted to die and go get that peace. But he had to Remember that there was a reason, a purpose to why he was here and still alive. As served we are still needed for what we can do. God still sees value in the world and his people. And he wants to work with us, with you here. I don't exactly trust that whatever it is that's leading me to have these thoughts will go away, or will give me peace in this life. I do however know, that is God is by my side helping me through it as long as I don't give up on him and I keep moving forward. He will help me get through the storm and at the end I'll be looking forward to when he says "well done my good a fateful servent". I not sure if I explained that well. But a big part of those suicidal thoughts is to evaluate where they're getting their fule. Mine usually come from ppl choosing sin over God. And just not wanting to be here because of it. I know that with him it'll be 100x more peaceful then this too so why not. And I personally had to realize that 1) I condemned these people before I knew them. 2) I was believing that these people couldn't change. 3) it's not my job to change people it's my job to plant a seed and treat people with love. When it comes to the second question I think there's a little mix up. First, heaven or our place with God for eternity was where we were supposed to be. We were made to be with him for an eternity. Our lives are shortened here ( I'm not willing to live 300 years on this earth 😰 it great an all but-whoa. No thanks) and were are presented with the choice of being with him or rejecting him. Is it selfish if we're trying go to where we are meant to go? The means which people might do that though is what should be looked at. Since that'll tell you if what they're doing is selfish or not. Hope this gives you some more thinking fuel play with. Would be glad to talk about this more.

[@williammarinelli2363]

Saw the video title question. I'm not going to affirm the existence of original sin without specification. Fruit consumption? Adding to the word? Lucifer's fall? And once specified, let's refer what is specified by the Biblical identifier and leave behind the unuseful eufenism of original sin.

[@georgewarner5496]

I think that the word REASONABLE has a key part in debates of this kind. Sadly I never hear the word reasonable used in modern sermons and it is only found once in the Bible at Romans 12:1(KJV). Blessed are the merciful for they shall obtain mercy. When Christians set high criteria for others to meet it often seems that they are using Satan's methods to try to accomplish God's work. We can give advice but we cannot give conduct. Empowerment is what really matters. I heard a shocking story about American care home staff who give electric shocks to autistic children to try to purge out their autism. An ancient Chinaman said : Superior people are easy to serve but hard to please. Hard to please because they have high standards but in using the service of others they only expect from them what they have the capacity to do. Inferior people are easy to please but hard to serve. Easy to please because they have low standards (as long as you please them they don't care how you do it) but in using the service of others they expect them irrespective of their capacity to do any and everything they ask.

[@Howie672]

Who is this man who can speak for the spirit of others in a generalized judgment?

[@newreformationapologetics4953]

I think it's the environment that helps further the sinful nature of man. But only a sentient being, namely man can commit a sin. So we ought to not dismiss the sinfulness of the individual. We must repent, turning away from sin and to God. If you accept Jesus Christ as your savior you can be saved indeed

[@erickcocks265]

Doing bad, does not a bad person make. It is the wrong parameter.

[@rosehammer9482]

Josephus gave an interesting commentary about the fall and the consequences of disobedience of God‘s command. Amazing how the narrative states that the serpent showed an envious disposition at his supposedly Of their living happily and in obedience to the commands of God and imagining that when they disobeyed them they would fall into calamities he persuaded the woman out of the malicious intent. Anyway it was very interesting from a Jewish perspective. It gave some clarity to the narrative of Cain and Abel. Abel was obedient and was living happily in that obedience. Cain was envious and plotted and killed his brother. Did Cain have the power to do well and not kill his brother or was his Desire to take away what his brother had stronger…. Covetousness. Just thinking out loud

[@williamfranz9872]

I listened carefully. The proposition began with whether man is inherently evil.( or intrinsically evil). This specific question is answered in the negative because of Genesis 1. To summarize Genesis 1 says : And it was good And it was good AND IT WAS GOOD AND IT WAS VERY GOOD. Accordingly God created no intrinsic evil only good. This is foundational in the orthodox belief that only good has substance while evil does not. As Aquinas said," evil is the privation of good." This does not mean that man cannot and does not commit evil. It means he is not intrinsically evil. Frankly I am not sure if protestants are exposed to early Church teaching on matters of divinization, but in truth, man posesses the divine and yet still sins. We PARTAKE is the language. The inquiry is more fruitful examining that interplay.

[@notdeadyetagain1]

What did John Locke mean by Tabula Rasa? What did John Locke mean by tabula rasa? Locke (17th century) In Locke’s philosophy, tabula rasa was the theory that at birth the (human) mind is a “blank slate” without rules for processing data, and that data is added and rules for processing are formed solely by one’s sensory experiences.

[@CharlieKraken]

All I needed to hear (beyond the words "progressive Christianity") to know that that blog post was speaking lies from Satan is the phrase "move beyond the doctrine of...". If you move beyond the edge of a beautiful cliffside, you fall off of the cliff and die. If you move beyond God's eternal and unchanging truths, you enter the realm of lies and the death of the spirit. Simple as that. God bless you and your ministry as always! (Edited to correct spelling error)

[@tarp-grommet]

Before you accuse anyone of speaking evil lies maybe you should demonstrate that your god actually exists.

[@CharlieKraken]

@@tarp-grommet I don't care for KZbin arguments so this is all I'll say, go watch one of Frank Turek's "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist" seminars. As he goes over the arguments for God/a god to exist. Secondly, the burden of proof is not just on me, it is on you too. The atheistic viewpoint is not some "default perspective" that has to be refuted beyond a shadow of a doubt before anyone expresses a different one. If I have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that God exists in order to express my views, then you have to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that He doesn't before you express your's. That is all, God bless.

[@tarp-grommet]

@@CharlieKraken Sorry Charlie - extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Trying to shift the burden of proof to non-believers is a newbie error by any would-be apologists.

[@AlixPrappas]

I want to clarify a little more than Clay did on the “no true Scotsman fallacy” you addressed around 1:00:00. Even if this IS that fallacy, it doesn’t mean the conclusion is wrong. A fallacy doesn’t comment one way or another on if a statement is true, it merely shows that the reasoning used to get to the conclusion that the statement is true is poor. Take for instance the appeal to authority fallacy. I could say that progressive Christianity is actually not Christianity at all because Alisa Childers says so. That is a poor/fallacious reason to believe that claim. It is, however, also a true claim. There is just more reliable and compelling evidence-such as the entirety of scripture itself-than appealing to your authority on the subject.

[@thegodlogic3844]

Christianity, has no basis on reality. you had a previous life and you will have a next life, unless you love God exclusively

[@AlixPrappas]

@@thegodlogic3844 if you want to provide some compelling evidence, please do so. Just confidently making a claim is meaningless.

[@yabits]

@@AlixPrappas -- Every orthodox Jew knows (and can prove) that Christianity is utter pagan idolatry. Seek out Shannon Neuszen (Beyneynu) and her spiritual journey from lifelong evangelical missionary to convert to Judaism -- right here on KZbin. Nothing means destruction for a Jewish soul like a Christian missionary.

[@AlixPrappas]

@@yabits and what do you think of the Jews raised orthodox that have subsequently accepted Yeshua as the messiah? Testimonies are easy to find on KZbin.

[@yabits]

@@AlixPrappas -- Alix, honey...if they are easy to find, you should be able to cite ONE. Nobody, but NOBODY who is raised on the Eternal Torah would ever accept JC as the Jewish messiah. Shannon, Luanne Hunt and a HOST of others stand ready to testify.

[@dirkhoekstra727]

Great video! This conversation reminded me of an advertisement that keeps popping up on KZbin called "The Human Condition" with an Australian biologist called Jeremy Griffith that claims he has the solution for all of humanity's problems. What a joke... Might also be some scam.

[@mizmzappamizmzappa9548]

I believe it was the French Philosopher Jean Jacque Rousseau who first used the term tabla Raza “Blank Slate” babies who are moulded by not just innate nature (nature) v ( nurture) the environment and our interactions and experiences from birth to adults that make us who we become. Personally I think it is a combination of both.

[@leonpope861]

Do we not arrive on the scene in a EPHESIANS 2 :1-3 state 🤔 ISAIAH 64:6 is a verse that can lead us to realize the WAY, the TRUTH,the LIFE of right -eousness is in the SON YESHUA HAMASHIACH ♨️ 🕊🔥

[@savedbymylovegodthelordjes8394]

praise the only true living LORD and GOD bless you all glory be to the HOLY TRINITY forever and ever amen 💖✝️✝️✝️...

[@dabbler1166]

I continue to wonder: What did early Christians believe BEFORE Augustine? POLYCARP, is said to have been taught by the Apostle John. Why aren't any of Polycarp's writing in the New Testament? Who wrote "the Didache"? When? CLEMENT OF ROME was another very early one. How might what he says be different from Augustine? Question: By the time we get to Irenaeus, is there already a sort-of "proto-Catholic" batch of doctrines/practices already forming? or earlier? People of the Orthodox Faith claim that we didn't have Original Sin or Predestination before Augustine. Is that true? Where is any Gospel of Peter? or Thomas? or Andrew? Pelagius disagreed with Augustine. Are his writing available to read? Why did he disagree?

[@robertdouglas8895]

There has to be a hell for people that we hate, that aren't as good as we are, who have made our lives hell. That is, until we forgive them for they know not what they do and then we reunite with the father we feel separate from.

[@oracawa]

Very interesting discussion. I have a Question about original sin when it comes to the teachings of Charles Finney and many who teach it today. I would not classify him as a progressive he approached it from a different angle. This was the beginning of the holiness movement. Finney did not believe in original sin he believed we are born good. He did not believe in the atonement. Christ’s came to show us how to be obedient as he was. He taught we were affected by the fall but not infected. It is called the moral government. It is possible to be sinless. Finney revivals were based on man’s ability to respond to the Gospel. He was the one who started the altar call with man made techniques to cause one to repent. YWAM follows this teaching. I have had discussions with a number of people who believe this. One key persons today among others who teach this is Jesse Morrell. He wrote a number of books two of them- Does Man Inherit a Sinful Nature? and The Natural Ability of Man. He had a debate with Matt Slick of CARM ministries on this. Available on You Tube. Have you heard of this?

[@EDKguy]

I'm currently readind The Gulag Archipelago and it is disturbing the depths of evil mankind is capable of under certain circumstances. Indeed, there, but for the Grace of God, go I.

[@chrisamberdiaz]

The argument that a concept isn't biblical because the word used to describe the concept isn't explicitly written down in scripture feels like a straw man or like a, "gotcha! I'm right. Be quiet kind of argument." If a word is used to describe a concept someone believes is found in scripture then we must do our due diligence and study to see if the concept is found in scripture (whatever you might name it). Example: Omnipotent... Where is that word in the Bible? Though the word may be missing exactly as it is written, the concept seems to be in the scripture's description of God. Whatever you might name it or word you prefer to use for it, the concept is there. Is the concept of original sin in scripture? That should be the question not are the words original sin in the Bible?

[@johnwarren3789]

👍

[@johnbullard902]

Great comment

[@richardwashington421]

​@@ClayBJonesBest comment in this entire comment section. Thank you for sharing.

[@alfonsoreynosa8143]

We are not saved by our good performance and others are not condemned because of bad performance. There are decent people who will go to hell, simply for refusing God's grace through Jesus Christ. When the Word of God says, "There is no one good, not one" is means there is no one worthy of grace.

[@joelturnbull4038]

I see this in education as well. Students are precious flowers, and if they are nurtured in a helpful environment, they will flourish. Any negative behaviour is merely a communication of some unmet need. If their needs are met, they will behave perfectly and learn well. As for little kids, they simply lack social skills, which they can be taught. So, the way to salvation is education.

[@savedYESHUAalone]

Amazing grace, that SAVES wretches, WRETCHES R US !!!!!

[@jjphank]

Three times you can be perfect in the Bible; that means not living in willful sin according to first John 1:7 the blood of Jesus will not forgive you, if you’re still in willful sin! Hebrews 10 says the same thing trampling the blood of the son of God under foot! Start being proactive with the law of Christ and do the great commission not the great omission! this will encourage you to get out of sin if you’re in it; anyone reading this! And you’ll be obeying Jesus instead of disobeying him! the point of being alive is not to be perfect but to be the body of Christ, but living a sinless life is part of that!

[@chrisamberdiaz]

I've read your comments exhorting people to perfection. Help me understand where in scripture it compels us to earn our salvation?

[@jjphank]

@@chrisamberdiaz jesus didn’t die on the cross so people can keep willfully sinning! We are saved for good works not from Good works Ephesians 2:10 right after eight and nine! Read Revelation two and three and notice Jesus works based commandments! And his ultimatums there concerning works! Do the great commission not the great omission everyone is supposed to do oneon one evangelism! Well done good and faithful servant how can you say that if you haven’t done anything! We are under the law of Christ. Galatians 6:2, 1 corinthians 9:21 “go to the highways and byways and compel people to come in “luke 13!

[@chrisamberdiaz]

@@jjphank You are arguing against something I never stated. I didn't say Jesus died on the cross so we can keep willfully sinning. I asked where in scripture does it compel us to earn our salvation?

[@jjphank]

@@chrisamberdiaz and I never said We earn our salvation! I think you’re confused

[@michaelpond813]

Because of original sin we are carrying that burden with us throughout life. That's a horrible bude. Causes many to give up.

[@leonardu6094]

The doctrine of Original sin is unbiblical and many folks right here on KZbin have done good work showing its falsehood.

[@anthonybarber3872]

Prove it!

[@leonardu6094]

@@anthonybarber3872 Prove what?

[@anthonybarber3872]

@@leonardu6094 That the doctrine of original sin is not in the Bible.

[@leonardu6094]

@@anthonybarber3872 uhh buddy seems to me you have every bit of a burden of proof to show that it IS in the Bible. If you can assert yours, seems to me that I can do the same.

[@ninomaltese1661]

John Locke came up with the phrase tabula rasa.

[@ybh8ful]

Aristotle used similar philosophy, and Freud re-used tabula rasa in his also. but yes, most commonly John Locke

[@walterromine2808]

Help me with my confusion(or ignorance)on the topic discussed in this video. On one hand, it was posited that man was born with innate selfishness and, also, with free will. If true, is not "original sin" man's option to disobey God by partaking of the "Tree of Knowledge"? If so, man's disobedience was for his innate selfish reasons and, while sinful, is explainable. On the other hand, if man is born in God's image and He was pleased with His creation of earth and man, how, then, can selfishness be part of the image of God? Scripture teaches that God is a "jealous God. Is He also selfish?

[@chrisamberdiaz]

Help me understand how you came to the conclusion that "selfishness is part of the image of God"? There is a difference between how we are born after the fall and how Adam and Eve were born before the fall. I'm not sure if that is where the confusion is or not?

[@walterromine2808]

@@chrisamberdiaz Perhaps my confusion, to your point, does lie in the before and after 'the fall '. However, my interpretation of the origin of man's innate selfishness was, that as the first man created, he would have been the first to have been made in God's image. I do not find explicit or implicit differences between the 'image of God' given to Adam and mankind thereafter. The answer likely is unknowable until " ... that day when we see clearly even as we are seen".

[@mariemilycraig]

Hi Walter! To me Dr Michael Heiser's writings on the topic of the image of God were very helpful: he explains that "being made in the image of God" is "being made to be God's imager". In other words, being the image of God is our function. Attributes such as freedom, desiring good, intelligence, creativity, strength and anything else like that, are what God has endowed us with so we can fulfill our function of imaging Him. But they are not in themselves the image, otherwise we would be saying that any human lacking any of these attributes for various reasons (disability, or being too old, or being too young) is somehow deficient in being in the image of God. Another simple way of putting it is to say "humans are God's representatives".

[@mariemilycraig]

To your last question, I'd say: God is the supreme good. He knows that our supreme good can only be found in relationship with him. We as humans can only be fulfilled and happy inasmuch as we are aligned with God. Therefore, in wanting us to choose and worship him as the only one worthy of worship, a.k.a. "being a jealous God", he is seeking our supreme good. When God seeks to be recognised by us for who he is, he is seeking our good, for how can we possibly find goodness and happiness otherwise than living in accordance with reality?

[@mariemilycraig]

Sorry to add another comment 😅 - this time, about Adam's disobedience. I am thinking about a distinction between "selfish" and "self-centered". If we define "selfish" as "self-serving", we could even think that the most selfish thing we could do would be to abandon our self to Jesus, trust wholly in him as our redeemer, and, in forgetting ourselves and focusing on him as the real center of reality, find the ultimate good for our own selves. Who stands to gain the most from me coming to Jesus? Why, I do! Am I then selfish for choosing him, and with him all imaginable good? One could say yes. But am I self-centered in doing so? Absolutely not: because that would be the real contradiction in terms. That's why I think Adam's disobedience came not from selfishness but from self-centeredness: he wanted to be like God, without God - through a different means. Forget God, gimme this fruit! Why should I have to depend on him for knowledge? I can then do stuff on my own. Basically "I did it my way" - that's what I think the original sin was about.

[@enricoabrahams5061]

and yet they probably won't have a problem calling conservative christians evil

[@Howie672]

If a child of two years takes a toy from another it’s not because they are evil it’s because they are experiential and have not developed understanding of their environment.

[@alfonsoreynosa8143]

Not sure I agree with the symbolic immortality projects explanation, true we are not all regenerate but I would say even those who are not redeemed are still created by God and have a semblance of His nature. When the Word says there is not one good not one, is is referring to man not being worthy of Salvation. It does not mean man cannot be be or do good. Aren't we not saved apart from works?

[@jjphank]

Calvinists and once Saved always saved people, have an over realized definition of the Doctrine of original sin, similar, but opposite also Pelagianists do as well! You can overstate any truth much like people overstate grace and understate works and go against what Jesus said to the 7 churches in revelation 2 & 3, They end up with a hyper grace definition of The true grace, from the Bible! 3 times, the New Testament says; be perfect as God is perfect be holy as God is holy go and sin no more! So despite the pretzel logic people try to do w Romans 7, you can be without willful sin and you’re supposed to, otherwise you cannot be saved! First John 1:7 “if you walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin.“ Galatians 5:16 “if you live by the spirit you will not desire the deeds of the flesh!” All 25 or so of them this chapter mentions, are defeated by doing one thing; walking in the spirit!

[@anthonybarber3872]

We can never be as good as God. That's why we need a Redeemer!

[@jjphank]

@@anthonybarber3872 And yet many Christians pretend like God’s dumber than us, By pretending they can keep on willfully sinning! God’s not stupid, he didn’t die on the cross so people could keep sinning! And he did not write the Bible, so christians can ignore it!!! Therefore, read… Read like the wind your eternal destiny depends on practicing what is preached in the Bible! Tell a child to read, they’ll read, tell a grown-up to read and they won’t. Jesus said you must become like a child to enter into the kingdom of heaven!! Are they/you humble enough to spend time with God? If not, you’re/they re not gonna make it into heaven!

[@simonskinner1450]

@@anthonybarber3872 We need a redeemer when we have sinned to forgive past sins.

[@anthonybarber3872]

@@simonskinner1450 We need a Redeemer who forgives ALL sins.

[@anthonybarber3872]

@@jjphank No true Christian practices sin. Bible says it. It doesn't mean we won't stumble and fall. Them we confess and keep going. Walk in the Spirit...We have a new nature that loves righteousness and hates sin. But it's still in an old body! That is why it says what it says in 1 John 2:1-2. And all the verses after that.

[@TheGreaser9273]

Who has ever, defined the doctrine of original sin as 'selfishness'. Does he think that Catholics baptize infants because they're selfish or do Catholics baptize infants because they think that they are guilty of Adam's sin? The denial of the doctrine of original sin has never been about the denial of selfishness.

[@MrTValleyguy]

I'm part of a Facebook grief group. Reference to your loved one being there with you is very common.

[@markshaneh]

Yes also like of course my loved one is in heaven, they never hurt a fly and did have a bad bone in their body..

[@anthonybarber3872]

Go get em tigers!

[@annestansell2515]

Saying we are not affected by original sin, is like an alcoholic saying they are cured and have evolved from alcoholism. We have an addict's relationship to sin; Jesus forgave us and helps us to live above it, if we are in him. However original sin doesn't disappear.

[@Howie672]

People making evil choices does not equal humans are born as sinners.

[@alfonsoreynosa8143]

So where does it come from, there must be a source. Think on Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned

[@Howie672]

@@alfonsoreynosa8143 doesn’t Mathews, Timothy and Corinthians warn us that Roman’s wrong?

[@AnniEast]

Jesus said we have to become like little children to inherit the kingdom...funny that He would suggest we become vipers in daipers...weird!

[@Howie672]

@@alfonsoreynosa8143 just because 512 Roman’s think something does not make it real.

[@mchristr]

The unchurched bristle under the implied condemnation of original sin. If the Church softened its doctrine and said that people are simply selfish, the world at large could tolerate that. Why? Because the prospect of willfully choosing unselfishness--and therefore self-redemption--is always available. But to say that our hearts are corrupt from birth and in need of outside intervention pushes the culture too far.

[@carlpeterson8182]

There is Original guilt and a sinful nature. Some conservatives Christians think we are born without original guilt. WE are only guilty once we have sinned. But almost every Conservative Christian believes that we all have a sinful nature at birth. A sinful nature is a predisposition for sin. I want to sin. it would be interesting to listen to this discussion with that nuance. Some conservative Christians arguing that mankind is born not guilty but has a predisposition towards sin only. And then many of them state that one has to be old enough to be able to sin. Thus young children are not guilty or not evil even though they have a disposition towards sin.

[@rosaliepike8948]

I agree a thousand times! From the title of the podcast, that’s what I thought this was going to discuss.

[@judylloyd7901]

Socrates, 4th century BC, subscribed to the theory of Tabula Rasa, although I don't know that it originated with him. John Locke, 1632-1704, is often regarded as its originator. 🙄 Sigmund Freud didn't agree with Tabula Rasa. Tabula Rasa has been discredited, as psychologists today hold that babies are born with personalities and other inherent traits.

[@esthersprinkle5797]

Looks like the idea of Tabula Rasa began with Aristotle, according to Wikipedia.

[@kylekloostra5659]

Please make the distinction between ethics and ontology. It is not either/or, it is both/and.

[@augustinewilliam3855]

Thank you Alisa for the podcasts that delve into core Biblical doctrines. I have been immensely blessed by your podcasts. They are many times offensive to the world including Progressive Christians, but that is truth. My only concern is , unless you believe that humans are inherently good you will not give guns (weapons of mass destruction) into their hands. This is something the conservatives need to seriously think through. By the way I am not an American, I am an Indian Christian.

[@kellydarrius]

can you be inherently bad and not exercise restraint? Not every sinner shoots people

[@GodDutyHonorCountry]

Jesus Himself said, “NO ONE is GOOD, but GOD”

[@JonathanGrandt]

I mean it does get a little annoying to hear people keep referring to us as progressive just because we reject unbiblical doctrines.

[@jzak5723]

You think original sin is unbiblical???

[@chicosbailbonds9764]

John Locke originated the idea of tabula rasa. Google for the win!

[@MrTValleyguy]

I'm probably wrong but I thought the concept of a blank slate went back to Rousseau.

[@NewCreationInChrist896]

Saints, understand and know our identity as Saints in Christ. Be spiritually minded not fleshly-carnally minded like sinners of the world. Romans 8:7-9 👑 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His."

[@sonval3997]

Tabula rasa was John Locke's theory.

[@billhobson6637]

John Locke was the author of tabula rasa.

[@colski3333]

Kingdom is still within. It was given to each of us by our Creator to GIVE. if we don’t we choke on it. Hence human condition. Yet. It still IS within. Jesus can help us to remember where and show us how to give it to enjoy again. We are complete but not if we deny our feeling self. When we do mind begins to rule and that is really the hell here and now.

[@notdeadyetagain1]

Ecclesiastes 7:20 There is not a righteous person on earth who always does good and never sins.

[@eldin14]

Please explain to novices how the sacrafice of Christ's blood makes believers in Christ better at not sinning...what does it actually do?

[@beepbopboop3221]

That is not what fearfully wonderfully made means. It refers to how God made us. God did not make us sinful, Adam and Eve did- disobey God. This is how we can be both fearfully and wonderfully made and also born in sin. One refers to what God did, and the other refers to what we did.

[@johnbullard902]

I think defining original sin as ‘inherent selfishness’ is inadequate at best, that seems a bit shallow and even self-excusing. Isn’t deeper than that?

[@vintagetalesstudiowithjenn7002]

How about Inherent Self Servicing, as if you are your own god... Eve and pride and arrogance, the oldest of all sins.

[@johnbullard902]

Maybe inherent Rebellion would be a better broad term

[@robertdouglas8895]

I visited my mother daily in a care facility before she died. She had hated going into this facility she had been to before, even said she thought of it as a prison. She resolved much of her racial prejudice when she was being served by minorities. She died in a state of peace. We come here for one thing: to forgive everyone. Forgiveness is not only self-interest it is the way to God's love. Forgiveness is the resolution of original sin. Sacrifice doesn't do it. "If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent."

[@chrisamberdiaz]

I'm trying to marry the two things you said together. You said, "Forgiveness is the resolution of original sin" and then you quoted Matthew 9:13. How does one explain the other?

[@robertdouglas8895]

@@chrisamberdiaz I gave Matt 12.7. Matt 9.13 has been distorted. Jesus didn't think of any other part of God's creation as sinners any more than he thought of himself as one. That's because he forgave everyone. We are just lacking wisdom but that doesn't make us sinners. "Forgive them for they know not what they do." We are still as God created us. We don't have the power to change that. We are lacking wisdom when we think we do. When we forgive, original sin is nothing. The world the prodigal son thinks is here does not come from God's truth, His true inheritance to us. We've distorted it into separation, guilt, pain, sacrifice, death and ignorance. Forgiveness is what brings us back to the point of creation, the heaven we never left. The kingdom of heaven is within you.

[@chrisamberdiaz]

@@robertdouglas8895 please take this as a sincere queston. I dont mean this sarcastically or disrespectfully. I'm just curious. Are you a Christian? Do you belong to a denomination of Christianity? I'm curious about what people believe and what denomination or church they belong to. I like to know what each one teaches and what they believe.

[@robertdouglas8895]

@@chrisamberdiaz I was brought up Presbyterian in the 50's and 60's. Read a lot in my 20's: Buddhism, existentialism, and later all major religions. Went through a divorce in my thirties in which I needed God's help to show me what forgiveness is and to guide me through it. It is the key to end anger, sadness and fear. Jesus had the most advanced teaching than anyone else, but it still needs correction from what is in the Bible because the New Testament is still obsessed with sacrifice and Jesus knew it was not the Way. The Crucifixion was to teach forgiveness, not sacrifice, but people have to keep suffering themselves until they learn that. I don't need to separate myself from anyone else by giving myself a different label. We are all sons of the most high God. I go to a "Bible" church. It's where I am supposed to be. We share enough right ideas. I gradually make offers of other ways to look at things.

[@chrisamberdiaz]

@@robertdouglas8895 how did you come to the conclusion that Jesus's teaching needed Correction and how do you know that you corrected it?

[@erics7004]

I'm not progressive, but I believe in the pelagian view that we are born innocent, but we sin afterwards and get corrupt. We can only get back on track with regeneration. The tree of good and evil is every person history. But we are not guilty of Adam's sin. We fall because of our own sins.

[@Fireking285]

I think you're on the right track, but what you're describing isn't "Pelagianism". Look up Leighton Flowers "Was pelagius really pelagian?"

[@nathanyates5576]

Amen

[@christopher7725]

Clay doesn’t believe in tabula rasa but doesn’t know and hasn’t even thought about where the idea came from… well it came from Aristotle, and the idea was also supported by Thomas Aquinas, Descartes, John Locke and Freud. 14:58 - 15:13 Clay states that Liberal DA’s side with criminals and defend them by saying “it’s not their fault, it’s the environment’s fault, the environment is evil” 33:35 - And then Clay contradicts himself by saying how moved he was at the quote, “If my life had turned out differently, might I too have become such an executioner” because it shows how anyone can become evil due to the environment.

[@marcavus1]

Self interest and selfishness are two different things. To have self interest is natural. When a baby is born it cannot tell the difference between self and other. It sees everything as one. That is why hitting small children makes a permanent impact on the subconscious. As the child learns self and other it will learn that taking care of the needs of others is important too. Actions that are "selfless" are motivated by the same self interest as"selfish" actions. Even Jesus acted out of self interest when going to the cross. Hebrews 12:2 tells us very clearly: “… who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.” This verse says Jesus focused on “the joy” that was set before Him as He endured the Cross. Jesus did what he did because in the end there was a net gain. Joy and glory. No joy, no gloy, no cross.

[@NathanRambeck]

As a conservative Christian who rejects the original sin doctrine as unscriptural, I found this interview to be frustrating. Defining original sin as selfishness, is not helpful. That's just a summary of sin. Original sin is a specific doctrine that teaches that all men are born guilty of the sin of Adam and that they inherit a corrupted character, unable to do good. It is valid to criticize progressives for blaming sin on environmental factors. But original sin teaches that we ought to blame our sin on Adam and Eve, or worse to blame God. The Bible teaches that all have sinned and that the ultimate responsibility, the ultimate cause of our sin, is ourselves. We are sinners, not because we can't help it, but because we can help it and still choose evil over good. Blaming our sinful behavior on Adam is no better than progressives who blame our environment. The blood of Christ saves us, not from Adam, but from ourselves.

[@NathanRambeck]

I appreciate the response and further explanation of the original sin position from scripture. --- Wouldn't you agree that Ephesians 2:3 "where by nature children of wrath" could be translated or understood to mean that the Ephesians, who previously walked in sin, were the category/genus/sort of people to be under God's wrath? Since that word for nature can also be translated as genus/sort. That makes the most sense to me. In other words: It's "natural" that people who walk in sin would be under God's wrath. Also, the same word nature is used to teach that Gentiles obey the law "by nature." Romans 2:14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, So our nature isn't to sin, but to keep the moral law. By nature/design, we have a conscience that tells us right from wrong. When we sin, we are going against our God-provided, natural warning radar against sin. Further, the Bible teaches that God's wrath is in response to our DEEDS, not our nature. God is not angry at little newborn babies. He is angry at those who act wickedly. Romans 2:5-6 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS": --- Psalm 51:5 certainly says that David was sinful from birth. Your defense of the meaning of the text is valid, but I simply find it to be a form of exaggeration. David wants to communicate that he started his sin habit early in his life and uses hyperbole to make the point. He does the same thing in another Psalm, making the point that sinful acts start early. Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies. This one is more clearly hyperbole, because we know that newborns are not able to speak lies as soon as they are born. And as you said yourself, babies don't actually commit acts of sin (or go astray). --- On the flip side, there are scriptures that teach that children are never held accountable for the sins of their fathers. Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. Jeremiah 31:29-30 In those days they shall say no more: 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children's teeth are set on edge.' But every one shall die for his own iniquity; every man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge. --- I'll end with this. We both agree that all men sin, when we come to the knowledge of right and wrong. I get why people would look for an explanation for universal sinfulness. I don't get why people would insist so forcefully on an explanation that removes accountability from each individual sinner and ultimately makes God culpable for our guilt by designing us in such a way that we will inherit an immutably bad character (an inability to do good) from our parents.

[@jordandthornburg]

@Clay Jones hi clay. Why must it mean “by birth” simply because o brien says so? That seemed to be the basis for the conclusion in your argument. Many other scholars have argued differently and there are clear instances of the phrase not meaning “by birth” but more “by developed habit (or second nature)” cf. thayers lexicon).

[@jordandthornburg]

@Clay Jones ok. The “by nature” point from Galatians is the strongest point raised. The rest was really just statements without much backing or evidence (with all due respect to those scholars) so I don’t count that for much. Yes it can and does mean “by birth” at times. The issue is does it always mean that?-and if not always, does it mean that here? I think contextual ideas tell us it defiantly doesn’t mean “by birth” for several reasons. One being we are dead in “sins (plural) in which we once walked”. These are our sins clearly, not adams sins. Two, if fits better the context overall that it is our actions which caused this, not our birth and the third and final point would be the Jewish idiom “children of wrath” which means either “deserving of wrath” or “destined for wrath”. I would choose the former meaning and if that’s correct (and I think it is) it CANNOT mean “by birth” as you cannot DESERVE punishment for being born, but by definition. That would be a moral absurdity, so given that understanding of the phrase “children of wrath” it cannot mean “by birth” and it instead should be taken as Thayer recommends, something like “by nature that has been created by long practice and habit”.

[@jordandthornburg]

@Clay Jones ok. I would dispute almost all of those points. Unfortunately KZbin is a horrible platform to debate back and forth so I’ll just leave it here.

[@jordandthornburg]

@Clay Jones no I appreciate your demeanor. No offense taken or anything. I don’t know exactly when it would happen in any one persons life but after they sin for the first time for sure. Idk how many sins it might take. It’s definitely not something I see Paul even saying.

[@derektrudelle4182]

Is our Creator good? Then His creations must also be good.