Shunning Part 5: Half-Truths and Outright Lies

[@sherylalismom285]

This series on Watchtower 's shunning practice has everything I would like to say to some of those still in the organization. Those who are determined to follow the lead of men. Not the lead of Jesus. May God continue to bless your boldness and love of the truth, Eric.

[@BeroeanPickets]

Thank you, and so good to hear from you.

[@wendywiens4209]

Yes, well said Sheryl. I was thinking about how your thoughts fit the verses at Galatians 1:6,7 where the apostle Paul is showing how the Galatian Christians were being influenced by the Judaizers. The JWs are certainly Judaizers, calling themselves witness of Jehovah instead of Jesus. Jesus said at Acts 1:8 that Christians were to be witness for him across the earth. So Paul said, "I am shocked that you are turning away so soon from God, who called you to himself through the loving mercy of Christ. You are following a different way that pretends to be the Good News but is not the Good News at all. You are being fooled by those who deliberately twist the truth concerning Christ."

[@sherylalismom285]

​@@wendywiens4209 The entire book of Galatians has so much more meaning for me these past few years.

[@jtopdawg6]

Great video. So sad for those who still refuse to wake up from that cult.

[@paulrosser6249]

The collective impacts of the long list of hypercritical comparisons you have explained are very powerful when highlighted . Thanks Eric for all your efforts which are clearly being blessed. The video was excellent.

[@wendywiens4209]

Hi Paul, I have often appreciated your insightful comments in response to Eric's videos. I do the post production on all the English ones so take great interest in the KZbin comments. I thought you might be interested in knowing that a brother sent Eric, who shared with me today, excerpts from a book called A History of Terror in the Name of God", written by Jonathan Kirsch, after he watched Eric's video. These following two excerpts are a bit long but I think well worth reading. The parallel with JW judicial procedures is unmistakable. It might make an interesting video to solely compare the tactics of the JWs with the Catholic Church. Of course, as Eric said in his video, Christians are supposed to follow the laws of the land and so can't use the same torture tactics as the the pious friar-inquisitors who excelled in physical torture. But, as Eric pointed out in another video, JWs do murder people in their hearts, by saying that unless they conform to their teachings (repent JW style) and betrayal methods then they will die eternally, will not be worth a second resurrection, and will die at Armageddon. Pg 14 Accused heretics who confessed to their crime, recanted their false beliefs, and managed to survive the “penances” imposed by the Inquisition would be welcomed back into the arms of the Mother Church, or so insisted the pious friar-inquisitors. The official theology of the Inquisition held that the inquisitors never actually punished anyone; they merely corrected the errors of repentant Christians who had strayed from the Church and then freely returned to its maternal embrace. Thus, for example, a convicted heretic who had managed to escape from an inquisitorial prison is described in an inquisitor’s handbook as “one insanely led to reject the salutary medicine offered for his care.” By contrast, the truly repentant Christian was likened to a patient who took his medicine by performing without protest all the penances that had been prescribed by the “good doctors” of the Inquisition. The Inquisition in practice was never as benign as it advertised itself to be. Confession was required before the sin of heresy could be forgiven, for example, and yet confession alone was never enough. The confession had to be abject, earnest, and complete, which meant that it had to include the betrayal of others, including spouses and children, friends and neighbors. That’s why the naming of names was rooted in both the theology and the psychology of the Inquisition-the will of the victim to resist had to be utterly crushed, his or her sense of self eradicated, and the authority of the interrogator acknowledged as absolute. The best evidence that an accused man or woman has been utterly defeated, then as now, is the willingness to betray a loved one or a trusting friend.

[@antonio8677]

Thank you and thank you again for such an incredibly spiritually uplifting and lucid discussion. May Jehovah continue to bless you as you share these gems.

[@toddhayes3506]

Great Job Eric keep Exposing Watchtower LIES!

[@vintage6346]

I hope that soon each lie that is exposed will make Watchtower's façade disappear. Watchtower will be fully exposed as the corrupt empire that we already know it to be. Maybe honest JW's will become repulsed by what they see.

[@catrionamcgee8685]

So encouraging my dear brother Eric, 🙏 thank you once again for explaining in such an "understandable" way the REAL TRUTHS which are a JOY to heart,mind&soul. With the help of God's Holy Spirit your teaching ability is so Blessed. Thank You 🙏😊❤

[@aiercooledengine]

Thank you for your continued good work.

[@ticktock3526]

They can attack the person because they the Watch Tower do not tell the congregation why some one is no longer “ one of Jehovah’s Witnesses “. The congregation is left to think that anyone who is denounced from the platform must be a gross sinner! How sad!

[@TallKulWmn1]

Thank you for continuing to help clarify fact from fiction ⚖️

[@akatheheretic3014]

YES . . As Time Marches on the WTS's duplicity 😒 🤫 . . Is Becoming Evermore ABUNDANT !! 🤨

[@horacedyer6275]

Wonderful video presentation Eric, really enjoyed it. Now that iam out of the org I keep wondering why the governing body can't see their self-delusion

[@thetruthk5138]

They can it's all to do with control and keeping the numbers higher and really nothing else. BITE model .

[@sallyAP]

Pride

[@jan75643]

It is Jeh that both enlightens and draws us to wakefulness. Eric drew a parallel between the GB and the pharisees. Their own self elevated sense of importance along with their greed for power and control was what blinded them,even tho it was clearly evident that God was with Jesus. Pride!

[@vintage6346]

@@jan75643 Last night, I made a phone call to a JW couple to see if they would wake up. There is still hope, but sadly their "pioneer" status was heralded. And twice the husband said they will die as Jehovah's Witnesses. I'm glad I made the phone call and the effort. Maybe, despite their best efforts, they will begin to see Watchtower as the scam that it is.

[@spec5050]

Horace , the GB have been blinded by their own Self Importance , Pride , Greed , Power , Arrogance and Ego . Just like the Scribes and Pharisees of Jesus day .

[@dawnbehatin1224]

Great presentation ❤

[@BeroeanPickets]

Thank you 😋

[@louiskucinski5016]

Thats amazing insight as its so easy to decieve and twist the truth of the scriptures .

[@davidh5403]

Excellent scriptural reasoning Eric!! Interesting point how they pattern their judicial meetings with Israel..a sovereign nation, which they are not! and ignore Jesus' new arrangement for Christians of mercy and love.

[@wendywiens4209]

Well, JW leadership has influenced all to be a witness of Jehovah and not Jesus (by calling themselves Jehovah's witnesses they really miss the mark).They are Judaizers. Jesus said at Acts 1:8 "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you. And you will be my witnesses, telling people about me everywhere-in Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

[@JKV84]

Thank you for all your work.

[@shawnandrews8406]

Another excellent one. Thx you Brother Eric Wilson. May Jehovah the God of the Heavens bless you greatly indeed.

[@lindabasinger6120]

Their religion must be fragile if they fear those who may lead them astray.

[@mamajan99]

EXACTLY! Light reveals the flaws. They can't deal with the unfiltered light of truth.

[@DeedeeModerneyeswe]

Wonderful delivery. Thank u Eric. Hawaii ex-jw,ex Bethelite. Wickedly Shun ed by his own sons n daughters.

[@Jeron_Benton]

Hey I’m an ex JW also in hawaii In Honolulu area … what island are you on?

[@vaeryk4941]

What a coincidence so am I!

[@Jeron_Benton]

@@vaeryk4941 what part of the island do you live?

[@lynetteedwards]

Me too brother... a new club is formed "the shunned ones".. keep up the fine reveals Eric

[@vaeryk4941]

@@Jeron_Benton Oahu, mililani

[@Hdhdjdjdjsjdje]

Pick up your torture stake and follow me Jesus said. When Christ was called a blasphemer Everyone including God Himself knew He wasn’t. But the Jews didn’t care and let Barberus the murder free and crucified Jesus instead much like Jws let the pedophiles free and kick out the ones objecting to it. Great work Eric. You drew some amazing conclusions and observations out here. Love it. Take the narrow road not the wide open road which many go of onto. There will always be less of us telling the truth and objecting to the wrongs WTBTS covers and hides and lies about. Thanks for this amazing video and great truths. 🙏👌💪

[@georgebrown8312]

Barberus? I think you mean Barabbas. Anyway, I understand what you mean.

[@thomassmart2790]

Good job Eric. Thank you for your research and delivery

[@kathywimer8597]

Thank you

[@BeroeanPickets]

You're welcome

[@gabrielwitchett8284]

Bravo 👏🏾

[@Elroi3310]

Thank you Eric

[@Cindy-yq1cy]

Thank You!🌟🌹☯️

[@Cindy-yq1cy]

How kind to Squander moments of Your Miracle of Life to respond to my post. Thank you, kind Sir!🤗

[@fifthdimension1984]

As a JW of some 35 yrs but faded, that Awake article from 1947 on the subject of excommunication has always bothered me in profound ways. Once you read it, you cannot unread it. Then when you read or hear the JW Ministry of Truth trying to justify the practice in their publications and at congregational level, it creates mental conflict as to what is truth? So i ask the JW Ministry of Truth... what is truth?

[@BeroeanPickets]

Whatever they might answer, the de facto answer from them is "Truth is whatever we say it is."

[@mamajan99]

@@BeroeanPickets Ain't that the truth!

[@vintage6346]

@@BeroeanPickets Lol. So, when Watchtower says "always tell the truth" there should be an asterisk and a footnote that says " *The truth is whatever we say it is". That's great. Now I finally understand why I was "marked".

[@mamajan99]

I copied that 1947 Awake article above a few days after you replied here! In part: "The Encyclopedia Britannica says excommunication is not without Pagan influence."

[@cassiedempsey4930]

Learning so much ! Thank you.

[@BeroeanPickets]

You are so welcome!

[@connormusic9274]

Exactly on point, Eric. If one chooses voluntarily to no longer be a member of "Jehovah's Witnesses", then HE/SHE IS NO LONGER CALLED A BROTHER OR A SISTER! So 1 Cor. 5 doesn't apply! DIPWEEDS!

[@NobleMindedBereans]

This was very good Eric. I never noticed the discrepancy with Matthew 11:12 before. ( I accidentally deleted my prior comment and just replaced it with a shorter version that I could remember.)😞

[@UKS12345]

Brother knorr, the president of the watchtower society, 1960s I think, one said that those who drift away are in fact disfellowshipping themselves (hence the shunning)

[@northernexposure8622]

Dear Eric...Another very well-presented account. My favorite line.... "You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave"! I didn't realize the "Eagles" were really writing about their experience with the JWs! Hahaha...😉

[@vintage6346]

I actually laughed out loud at that. You are perhaps from my generation.

[@mamajan99]

An awesome discussion as always! Am I the only one thinking of Hitler's SS officer's similar defense? Are the obedient Elders innocent just because they are following orders "from above"? "In a 1962 letter, Holocaust organizer Adolf Eichmann wrote that he and other low-level officers were “forced to serve as mere instruments,” shifting the responsibility for the deaths of millions of Jews to his superiors." The “just following orders” defense...will fall flat once again! "In other words, people actually feel disconnected from their actions when they comply with orders, even though they’re the ones committing the act." I am afraid that their judgement will be with the same as they dish out. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

[@universeworld1782]

Well said Sister, 👏 🎉 love your comment. The Gastapo style rule of the Elders will not be overlooked. ❤

[@jan75643]

These German soldiers just following orders were aware they were killing/murdering. Many elders truly believe their unkindness is an act of love. Their due punishment then would seem to be less.

[@BeroeanPickets]

@jan75643 “Then that slave who understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do what he asked will be beaten with many strokes. But the one who did not understand and yet did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him.” (Luke 12:47, 48)

[@mamajan99]

Not exactly the 1,000 year reign ! As an aside, I also found this also has some similarities: "Third Reich, official Nazi designation for the regime in Germany, as the presumed successor of the Holy Roman Empire (800-1806; First Reich) and the German Empire." Encyclopedia Britannica. The GB thinks they will reign for 1,000 years also.

[@wendywiens4209]

@mamajan99-- Also very similar to the Spanish Inquisition when it came to secret meetings and crushing independent thinking. Someone shared with Eric some excerpts he took from a book called "The Grand Inquisitors Manual: A History of Terror in the Name of God", written by Jonathan Kirsch. I found a number of the excerpts so much like JW style: From page 14: It is mind blowing how similar it is the JW Judicial committees in their secret meetings. Can you see the parallels? "The Inquisition in practice was never as benign as it advertised itself to be. Confession was required before the sin of heresy could be forgiven, for example, and yet confession alone was never enough. The confession had to be abject, earnest, and complete, which meant that it had to include the betrayal of others, including spouses and children, friends and neighbors. That’s why the naming of names was rooted in both the theology and the psychology of the Inquisition-the will of the victim to resist had to be utterly crushed, his or her sense of self eradicated, and the authority of the interrogator acknowledged as absolute. The best evidence that an accused man or woman has been utterly defeated, then as now, is the willingness to betray a loved one or a trusting friend."

[@amberforcen1177]

It’s amazing they never think like not one other sect of Christianity not even the reformers through all of these thousands and thousands of years have come up with a rule to completely shun your family and friends if they don’t believe what you believe or in particular, if you don’t believe in the Bible and tract Society, but not one Christian sect through all the years, not Martin Luther not anybody came up with that rule, or Catholic sect for that matter, yet they really believe that rule is from G-d. Do you know who likes to break up families ? Satan, Satan likes to break up families, and that’s exactly where that rule comes from !

[@nowandafter3258]

💰JW💰

[@lindabasinger6120]

I understand that JW's choose to live in FEAR instead of LOVE as Jesus taught us to do. Living in fear as Hitler used for his power keeps people in a low vibration outside of Christ conscience. We have a choice and it's too easy for some to believe. We have a choice to live in fear or love. That's all it comes down to. Every choice we make we should ask ourselves, are we making this decision in love or in FEAR.

[@mamajan99]

"We have a choice" said the Apostle Paul. Romans 14

[@nikolaj.2024]

à lire ces témoignages, et il y en a bien d'autres, il résulte beaucoup de tristesse et de déceptions à cause de ces "séparation" naturelles ou volontaires, ou forcées par ceux qui détiennent une certaine autorité (ou une autorité certaine et séparatiste) cultuelle-associative-religieuse.

[@rosaelenaarce8189]

😢 i knew it... sigh. My whole family is JW. I got baptized at 18, I'm currently 36 & don't believe what they do anymore, but I'm afraid to speak out because I'll lose my family. 😭 What can I do? Help.

[@BeroeanPickets]

I'm working on it. I think we need a playlist on how to help JW friends and family to wake up. It's hard because they have been so indoctrinated that they have all but given up their ability to think for themselves and any attempt to help them reason sets off alarm bells in their brain.

[@vintage6346]

@@BeroeanPickets I agree. I spoke recently with a JW married couple who used to be my dear friends. After warm greetings and exchanges of current health problems, I told them Watchtower is crooked. In the background, I heard the wife telling her husband to hang up the phone. So, lol, I guess that's one "method" you can mark off your "playlist"? ... but I'm still glad I did it.

[@rosaelenaarce8189]

​@BeroeanPickets My 2 of my sisters are Regular Pioneers. My brother in law is an Elder, my mom baptized & they are all I have. For years they have been proud that even tho I'm not active I respect Jehovah by still obeying & not joining the World in any unapproved activity. 😞 My husband doesn't understand because he's not a JW. I feel jailed in my own world. Like I'm making it up & it's not real. Then u confirm my suspensions & feel even more afraid.

[@mamajan99]

@@rosaelenaarce8189 I am so sorry for what you and many others suffer. Jesus went on the mount and wept because of this sort of human dysfunction. Be assured of His love for you. We victims must focus on what we have, including God's love. It still hurts.

[@yvonne3903]

​@@rosaelenaarce8189your husband is a perfect reason to find activities that you benefit from. What do JWs call approved activity? I suspect nothing apart from attending meetings and preaching. It's about mutual respect, try to find activities where you meet others.

[@jont39]

They use 1Cor 5:11 and you quite rightly pointed out that has nothing to do with someone deciding to leave of their own accord. But the following verses 12 &13, how do we reconcile with these verses.

[@BeroeanPickets]

The issue isn’t whether or not we should judge people as sinners in the congregation to determine whether they should remain with us partaking of the emblems or not. The issue that the video is dealing with is that once we make that determination, we do not go beyond what is written. Witnesses not only throw someone out of the congregation, but then oblige every Jehovah’s Witness to shun them. Officially, they denied doing this. Officially they say the disfellowshipping is of a spiritual nature only. But this is not the case. The shunning is total and absolute. A witness is not allowed to say so much as a simple hello to such a person.

[@cherikerr8595]

❤

[@nicolegardner5593]

The Jehovah's Witnesses have to know this information! I don't understand why they don't use their tools to fight to do what's right and to stand up for the truth against these false prophecies and with the governing body is selling them?

[@BeroeanPickets]

There are none so blind as those who will not see. For most, standing up for truth would mean denying themselves the identity they've subscribed to for their entire lives. They can see no where else to go and no one else to be.

[@mamajan99]

The psalmist said, “As a father pities his children, so the Lord pities those who fear Him. For He knows our frame; He remembers that we are dust” (Psalm 103:13-14). Maybe the harsh judges should judge by God's standard. "For with the same judgment you pronounce, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Mt 7:2

[@jsn4824]

Wait a minute. Doesn't the G B tell the flock that it is permitted to lie to authorities to protect Jehova's name ?

[@janitia]

You mentioned that a person is a member of a religion but watchtower denies its people membership calling them friends instead but are they still really members and this is a way to deny culpability?

[@stephena8375]

What video is that trumpet melody from? I can’t place my finger on it

[@BeroeanPickets]

Just something I found on the internet.

[@Hdhdjdjdjsjdje]

@@BeroeanPicketsit’s perfect. Nice find./

[@UKS12345]

The witnesses statement isn’t about people who have been disfellowshipped. That’s why they have dishonestly my used the word disfellowshipped. They are referring to witnesses who have fallen away, no longer attending meetings and no long partaking in their ministry. Yes it’s true they don’t shun those who have just fallen away but not disfellowshipped, but the witnesses know that they aren’t addressing the question honestly. They are deceiving

[@mamajan99]

"they don’t shun those who have just fallen away" Really? They certainly have shunned my wife and I. We just faded away almost 30 years ago, but those old friends have cut us off. One very close friend was going thru some issues and called my wife for support but then she asked the big question: "Do you believe the WT is God's only organization?" When my wife mentioned the child molestation issue our old friend said that she could not listen to negativity and cut us off...again.

[@UKS12345]

There is also a time factor on this issue. If the person stops attending meetings or going on field ministry for a short time, maybe one or two months, then yes, they elders may try to encourage that witness back to the meetings. But if a person stops attending for perhaps 6 months or more, then they will shun. The witnesses here are being dishonest because they know that the question is directed to disfellowshipped person or a long time absentee from the congregation And the congregation members will shun.

[@arkanasstatelinerobinsons2209]

What happened to free will service as stated in the Bible says to treat unrepentant ones as a person of the nation if they are still practicing sin . The Bible says death pays for sin so what is disfellowshiping?🤔

[@zip6404]

I have a question ,if a person was baptised in 1990 as a Jehovah Witnesses,and then the JWS changed the religious Name ,and Baptism questions ,and there name to Christian Witnesses of Jehovah ,then how can a person still Technically be considered a Jehovah Witness,if he wasn't baptise under the name Christian witnesses of Jehovah .its like you have a Job at a certain place ,and they change there Name for one reason or another ,can we say we still work for the same company,so wtbts are playing by there own rules to say you are still a Jw, if you were not baptise under there new name ,and also didnt' i read some where that we are not a member or agent of wtbts ,just a Though need answers.Hosea 4:6

[@arkanasstatelinerobinsons2209]

What's the disfellowship policy stand on once the sin is corrected is the policy still valid and should the shunning continue people have been disfellowship for living together without marriage but have corrected the sin but is the disfellowship policy still valid and shunning?

[@BeroeanPickets]

They don't disfellowship to keep the congregation clean. If they did, they reinstate once the person stopped sinning and repented. But they do not. Instead, they make the sinner endure what is effectively a penal punishment, a sentence with a term of not less than 12 months and often more than that. The purpose is to maintain control over congregation members.

[@arkanasstatelinerobinsons2209]

@@BeroeanPickets you are so right doesn't make sense and it's not from the Bible 🤔

[@mamajan99]

@@BeroeanPickets WT practice seems to ignore Paul's counsel on gentleness, which, along with another teachings has caused many suicides! Gal 6:1 Brethren, even if a man is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, lest you too be tempted.” Gentleness is required in restoring someone back into fellowship because of the fact that the confrontation of being in sin is very painful to people. After someone has had the Lord finally break their heart over their sin and all of the trouble that it has caused in other’s lives and in the life of the church, that person will now be broken and often even over-react towards himself with ‘self-hate’ or loathing. Paul had been worried after sending to the church his ‘severe letter’ that the church would not be willing to maturely and decisively deal with those in the church who were refusing to repent of significant sin in their life, as Paul had commanded that they do. However, they had been willing to heed his counsel and had shown real spiritual growth by being obedient in doing this."

[@americabustos261]

The shunning is up for debate, my soon to be ex mother in-law stayed in contact through out all the years we were married and before that. I hear stories of people who dont even get a call back. This leads me to believe that she knows Gods love, and picks and chooses to apply JW rules as she feels fit. Hopefully she learns the truth befoe its too late as she is 90.

[@debborahthompson9421]

Ho2 do you use the Q R code ..??

[@BeroeanPickets]

Point your phone camera at it.

[@UKS12345]

Your friend had no right to ask you that question. No one has the right . Yes, that’s awful to shun you like that. Ignorant of your friend. I and my family would have spoken to you kindly xxx

[@donnyetta]

Charles Taze Russell wrote that shunning was pagan.

[@georgebrown8312]

What must it take for the Watchtower Society's Governing Body to see how dangerous their lies and hypocrisy are to their congregations and how detestable the lying and hypocrisy are to the true God of the Holy Bible? Doesn't the Holy Bible also warn us that lying is abominable to God? The Book of Proverbs tells us that it is.

[@dannycasey8261]

Today at 1pm there was a funeral for a wonderful young man of 18 years old. What brought him to the point of blowing his brains out? I've known the family since 1973 and went to the hospital when his Dad was born. It's been a long week. 😢

[@wendywiens4209]

@dannycasey8261-- how very heartbreaking. I personally knew 5 people from my 14 years in the Organization who committed suicide, all from different congregations. 😭 Of course, the congregations blamed the young people who took their lives as being unstable and taken over by the devil. They accepted no responsibility at all.

[@dannycasey8261]

Corinthians put out Specific sins. Watchtower INCLUDES TOBACCO, BLOOD TRANSFUSION, AND MANY OTHER THINGS THAT AREN'T IN THAT SCRIPTURE!!!!!

[@carmenjohnson6232]

Armageddon is not a war but a place rev. 16;16 also it is name megedo in Hebrew and Armageddon in Greek Soloman built 1 Samuel's 9:15

[@nikolaj.2024]

POURQUOI ET COMMENT DES CHRÉTIENS QUITTENT-ILS LES TJ-WTB&TS ? ou les jw-wtb&ts-inc of all country ? étude du sujet et des conséquences sur la vie des "séparés" à votre avis ? que constatons nous chaque jour ?

[@valdemar621]

Have you seen Sam Shamouns channel? He beleives in the trinity and is extemely well versed in the bible - would you ever considder to talk to him ? Or even do a debate ?

[@antonypelling9194]

There’s no doubt this arrangement/ procedure has in some sense been abused, But in Keeping with fairness & truth, I have been d/fd twice and have no arguement Against it in my own case. The weapon is correct, how it is used is debatable. ,'

[@wendywiens4209]

@antonypelling9194-- The Bible does not call for a judicial committee of 3 elders. That is not scriptural--neither is it scriptural to distinguish between minor and major sins in the only place where Jesus instructs the future congregations on how to deal with sins. Sins that could not be cleared up between 2 and 3 Christians helping the brother or sister to listen and make amends was to go to the entire congregation, that includes all the men, women and children. Here's the verse that Eric shared. "But if he will not hear them, tell the congregation and if he does not hear the congregation, let him be to you as a tax gatherer and as a Gentile." Matthew 18:17 How can you call their shunning practices debatable when they are not scriptural. They are blatantly false. Satanic.

[@aljawisa]

You kind of went after the flock on one of your points. The flock's attempt at helping can be good and bad but most of the flock are not trying to harm others. How about allowing them to make up their minds as individuals if such information can be made present to them? Why can't we just acknowledge the points of conflict and let Jesus, who is doing the judging, settle matters, whom I would think, imitate his father by bringing all things into judgement in relation to every hidden thing as to whether it is good or bad. I don't feel comfortable whacking people of at the knees. Even those whom had some level of fault for Jesus execution were corrected by Peter and they repented. The leadership always has the greatest judgment, but even if every member agreed to what was wrong, if they made any public support for such a position of correction they'll likely get burned. Wouldn't the principles in this text apply? Ezekiel 34:1-31 Does it not cover those who are not scattered and those who are scattered, but still trying to serve God? Does not 1 Corinthians 5 mean continuous behavior. Noah became accidentally drunk at a point in his life, does that mean he is a drunkard? As well as the other things mentioned there. Wasn't the man who was committing incest in vs 1 and 2 'sleeping' and 'doing' this behavior not slept and did? Is there some unrepentant behavior manifest in these 'reports?' I suppose it's the unrepentant behavior that's the key, and probably not the frequency. Although frequency could mean its unrepentant. Oh yeah in 1 Cor 5 it was brought before the whole congregation but they didn't act on the issue so Paul in spirit and in Jesus name passed judgement on the man. Even though the other steps were not directly reported in 1 Cor 5, at least step 3 of Mathew 18 was finalized by Paul, and then he became a man of the nations being handed over to Satan.

[@vintage6346]

Alja, I thought that if I read all of it that toward the end, in the conclusion, you would "make a point", but you didn't.

[@BeroeanPickets]

You write: "I don't feel comfortable whacking people of at the knees." Neither do I. I take no pleasure in it. I'm sure Peter took no pleasure in it either, but love for others doesn't mean we do the nice things, but rather that things that will ultimately benefit the person or persons we are speaking to. Often, this means doing things that make us uncomfortable and that open us up to criticism and attack. Peter's words bore fruit. Thousands were baptized in the name of the Christ.

[@aljawisa]

I was refereeing to people who don't deserve it like may parents. They acknowledged that they could be making mistakes in the way that disciplined, and would always quote Hebrews about discipling's according to what seemed right to them, and still giving respect. However there are those that don't want to seem to change, when fellow adults point out a wrong teaching and thoroughly prove it. I just thought it seemed cruel to level an accusation about many of the members of Jehovah's Witnesses without realizing some do think such harshness is wrong and probably want relief themselves with correct teaching. Otherwise why would in the Societies videos' they strongly disparage people who want to talk to their relatives. If they knew correctly would they use their words to encourage relatives to still put faith in the Bible. Wouldn't that give them some mental relief? I don't think most have some kind of ill will for those who leave or for those who may commit a sin. It just feels unnecessarily harsh towards those who don't know, or who are threatened aligning them with 'enemies.' Even God felt sorry for the Ninevite's, after they were informed and changed. I don't think I can force change, but some kind of threshold has to be met before you can change the majority. People have to arrive at conclusion on their own without being directly confronted. Most never accept new information by someone lecturing to them against their will.

[@aljawisa]

Did you learn anything? If you did then it's something that you might be able to use in the future, to make your own point.@@vintage6346

[@vintage6346]

@@aljawisa I still can't figure out what point you are trying to make.