Simulating ecosystems in the dark (indie devlog 4-2)

[@enderking1525]

We are SO CLOSE to the benthic niches I've been wanting for ages. All that's left is parts that let creatures crawl or walk along the sea floor and maybe the option for sessile animals

[@Nanobot_Swarm]

Don't forget thermal vents

[@masonhunter2748]

I want naturally emerging life with no player interaction like life appearing without the player adding anything

[@randomperson21983]

You from the last video

[@Greatduck777]

@@masonhunter2748 that would make the game much more interesting. It would be more of a “look and just wait until something happens” kind of like birthdays: the beginning.

[@fomalhaut_the_great]

@@Greatduck777 man i loved birthdays the beginning

[@SRMC23]

The Sapling Devblog next time after this: "I figure out if we got a Deep Sea area now, it would make sense that we add Hydrothermal vents, Cold Seeps and "whale falls" so i added a complete volcanic cycle to the map. And by following the code for making Black Smokers and actual Volcanoes i figured out how to simulate coral reefs and atoll formation"

[@connorhaley3190]

And pressure.

[@KaAlKyGood]

This is everything I want from this game. (Except tiny organisms, like insect level tiny and diseases.)

[@melonwelon7821]

​@@KaAlKyGoodI need little insect like organisms in this game. Not sure how it would be optimized but maybe something like they only appear if you zoom in

[@That_OneRandomGuy]

​​​@@melonwelon7821 I was just thinking how the game could look if creatures were overall a lot smaller. If they were, the map wouldn't look small compared to the animals, as they would be basically invisible to the player. With this scaling down, difference in size becomes a lot more apparent and looks better, showing both animals the size of pikaia and animals that in comparison reach the sizes of a blue whale. In my opinion to see small animals normally invisible to the player, more focused zooming plus an highlighting mechanic showing different kinds of beings (small animals and big animals; small plants and big plants; small algae and big algae) if toggled on could work. In my opinion, though, this change in size should be an option in the settings, as not all people want to make such an effort to look for their animals.

[@Sal1va]

imagine custom animal whale falls

[@FireTurkey]

Adding other sensory organs (IE: Whiskers) so blind animals (beyond filter feeders) aren't impossible would def be appreciated. And I guess if you do that, expanding "Feel" in the instinct menu so it can encompass food would make sense, too? Edit: Just thought about this, but I've noticed we can't have true arboreal animals in The Sapling. Animals can't, to my knowledge, go tree-to-tree and have no way to prioritize tree locomotion over ground locomotion. If possible, seeing true arborealism would be sick in the future.

[@masonhunter2748]

Nests are currently the only way creatures can lay eggs in a tree

[@FireTurkey]

@masonhunter2748 which like, I'm fine with. Other than hollows and stuff. Not sure if arms let things hold their babies and climb but that works too.

[@Antyczny]

Whiskers are a great idea. It would also be cool for animals to have a sense of smell in the future.

[@FireTurkey]

@@Antyczny I TOTALLY FORGOT ABOUT SMELL

[@TheSapling]

Without making promises, I also like this idea. Perhaps touch is not available by default, but only once you have specialized organs like whiskers.

[@netherite9051]

That creature looks so done with this update.

[@masonhunter2748]

What about the potential glowing flowers littering the night forest

[@liamflanagin7134]

FINALLY, DAY AND NIGHT CYCLE EDITS

[@Tristen-c6u]

Well, actually, you can still move in the dark and also for to caves

[@Mr.Polymonstrum901]

I toss and turn, I keep stress in my mind, mind

[@BrunoMaricFromZagreb]

Bravo 6. Going dark.

[@hayshed]

A neat fact is that many fish are brightly coloured because those wavelengths drop off quickly in water, and so are only slightly worse when it comes to hiding - the mating benefit still outweighs it.

[@reiteration6273]

It's genuinely amazing that a solo indie game is capable of being this intricate. I'd love to see where you could take this project if one of the big studios was willing to finance it.

[@baronharald]

My dream has always been a multiplayer evolution game where players try to counter each other out, this games looks like an amazing base for something like that

[@foamyrant]

@@baronharald Very nice. ive bounced a similar pvpve idea around in my head for like half a decade now. In way over my head but hope to find a dev cycle for it someday. I agree that what he is working on is an amazing framework for anything evo simulated.

[@foamyrant]

also. i rather him have creative freedom to build something he good at, slowly, than it ripped apart by a studio and eventually gutted to manufacture 80 dollar games.

[@sauerkids9254]

They would die due to witnessing greatness or make it ridecuasly microtransactioned

[@Doing-Goods]

​@@baronharald or maybe a different mode where you both try to have a healthy ecosystem and try to rebuild the ecosystem after disasters

[@GastropodGaming2006]

Cannabis leaf is glorious. Can't wait for the "Poison makes me high sometimes" update

[@annikathewitch3950]

Some animals (geckos) can see color at night! This is what leads to most of their fun color-based signaling. It might be neat to add a single eye type that can see color at night (maybe with a below average but not terrible distance during both night and day since gecko eyes are basically just cones). As a bonus, gecko eyes look cool as hell, so they could make a really fun addition. To make behaviors similar to the gecko's possible, some sort of color changing ability would also be super neat.

[@TheSapling]

Didn't know that, thank you so much :D

[@TherealNiqqa]

the thumbnail is literally me

[@blox4funbrosthecousins]

That’s just me in the middle of the night looking for cheddar

[@FireTurkey]

he's just like me fr fr

[@Greatduck777]

That’s me when I need to find my phone at night

[@masonhunter2748]

If you look like that you drink sap at night

[@gamingcat6034]

Looks like “you got games on your phone?”

[@sevenberry2932]

Somewhat unrelated to this episode, but it would be interesting is hormones could be effected by venom/poison (with the reaction depending on type) making to so animals can have distinct reactions to poison. Could be especially interesting with animals who are imune to specific posion types, pretty much allowing for the creation of natural drugs.

[@researcherchameleon4602]

I had the idea that the plankton should be separated into phyto and zoo plankton, so some zoo plankton can evolve into complex animals, with some species having young that starts off as plankton, like crabs and sunfish

[@FireTurkey]

Oh I like this, not really sure how metamorphosis would work tho.

[@snuwwulfie6156]

Please wessel, let me run this game in a borderless window so that I can let the simulation run while I do other things. I'm sobbing

[@FireTurkey]

pllleasse 🙏

[@user-ep1hp7vj6p]

try borderless gaming, its free and open source

[@TheSapling]

I've noted down the borderless part. About 'do other things', see thesaplinggame.com/faq: 'How can I let the game run in the background while the window is out of focus?'

[@dominikkorbely5809]

we are unfathomable degrees of back

[@filipdolinski1559]

I love the game and have been playing a lot recently, but in worlds with steep mountains I have often the problem that no animals are able to walk them, leaving parts of the world inaccessible. It would be cool to sea feet that could traverse extreme terrain, maybe like goat hooves or some insectoid legs. Another feature that would be amazing for a future update: metamorphosis, where a creature could look one way after birth and transform at a hefty energy cost, if the right conditions are met. It would just like the nests be a trait that requires specific body parts. (Maybe even parasitic larvae in plants and big animals, or larvae that can survive in rough conditions over the winter even when adults die of.)

[@TheSapling]

Without making promises, agreed with both things you mention!

[@Jurasicktrap]

Finally, my creatures won't look fucking stupid unless I use a specific eye that doesn't look too big

[@masonhunter2748]

Because you can just scale there eyes down

[@deadbeetsurname8810]

I personally think this is an opportunity to make the creatures even MORE goofy looking

[@gamingcat6034]

While the video is waiting to premiere I’m going to speculate a little, but echolocation? It would be a neat idea, and when in creature inspecting mode it could cause a sort of ring or something that expand out and highlights things from its instincts.

[@TheSapling]

It's something on my wishlist that didn't make this update. Really like the idea though!

[@gamingcat6034]

@@TheSapling unfortunate. Perhaps in the next update then.

[@Nanobot_Swarm]

Game gets better with every update, and update gets better with every episode. Never thought that night-time affecting creatures was something I wanted. Keep it up! Edit: It's finally easy for eyes to evolve naturally?! This is even better! (Accept the MilkBug into your heart, let it be your one true lord and saviour, 🥛🐛)

[@TiernanOleary]

Calm down about the MilkBug

[@ElliotVinyard]

Save us oh great Milkbug

[@AbbansDreaminVideos]

@@TiernanOleary milkbug is god

[@Greatduck777]

I want to see how day and night cycles will work. It will probably play into world creation, where you can choose the day and night cycles. Creatures might adapt to the longer night cycles with better night vision, or even if there are longer day cycles they might reduce the amount of energy they use so they can go longer without sleep.

[@keztannis6848]

I just wish there were major performance improvements, yeah all of this content is cool but it's no use to me if the game is barely playable if I don't go for max performance...

[@twerp_]

Two things I want in this game are: 1) Hooves or specialized limbs that allow climbing much steeper terrain 2) Taller plants or trees that allow for niches like low light plants (ferns) and tree competition for sunlight

[@TheSapling]

Without making promises, both are on my own wishlist too ;)

[@dradigogaming]

Hey, Wessel. This update looks awesome. It is amazing how every new dev-log makes the game feel so much bigger and I am so exited for the release. I have some ideas if you don't mind me sharing: -Custom terrain. I would really like to see a way to fully customize terrain, and even change the terrain within the simulation. It would make it far easier to set up exactly the worlds you want. - Serpentine bodies. I think it would fit right into the scary theme. I don’t know what they would do, but maybe, taking inspiration from snakes, they could be able to both slither on land, swim and climb, just not as good as any specialist in that field. - Parasites. As an extension of the hemophagy (blood drinking) of the previous update, maybe we could get true parasites that attach themselves to larger animals for an extended period. (This could also be a reason to add an extra small form for animals, like grass for plants or plankton for algae, where the animal inhabits plants or carcasses or other animals, I have no idea if that would work.) - Parasitoids. In laine with the last idea, the ability for animals to lay their eggs inside other animals. Fits quite well with the scary theme. - Insectoid libs. Many people would say insects are quite scary, also we could get things like the raptorial forelimbs of mantises. - Fossoriality. Extending the burrow nest idea to have animals that can live and move underground. I can see the scenario where predators can attack from below now. - Benthic animals. Fitting in with the new deep ocean. We of cause already have the herbivores that eat sedentary algae, but maybe things like, creatures that borrow in the sediment or even animals being able to walk on the bottom if they have legs like crabs (and legs that don’t evolve from fines, tying into the insectoid limbs idea). - Sedentary animals. Like sea anemones, animals that doesn’t move a lot or even at all. Again, keep up the awesome work, this project is amazing and (I am sure I speak for all of us) we are happy to have found it🦕🌳

[@FireTurkey]

Arthropod limbs are a must at some point, it's kind of crazy we don't have any yet.

[@TheSapling]

Hey, I think all of these ideas would work well within the game, and most even within this update... but none of them actually will be :/ . Most of this is high on my own wishlist though (but as always, no promises)!

[@Endermaster-z3e]

Im SOOOOOOOO Excited for this.

[@VioletWhirlwind]

Today I learned: that the "string of pearls" plant was a thing. I'm surprised I never knew of this plant's existence before! :O You know what other plant has very alien-looking leaves? A succulent called Gullum Jade (yes, spelled like the Tolkien character). The leaves are kind of like what is shown at 3:12 in the video, but rather than tubes, the centers are more like cups (aka, shallower), and more flared-out (usually. The shapes can vary.) I got one a long time ago, and now I have at least 3....all from that original one...they can grow from dropped pieces of themselves...even one leaf can grow into a new plant...they're taking over my apartment, haha!

[@TheSapling]

By pure chance, I have one close to my PC (didn't know the name though, thanks), and it inspired several leaves in the game ;)

[@Mapi0eYT]

Evolution simulated need to come back

[@Nanobot_Swarm]

He does 1 after every update

[@williamrands9688]

This is an amazing update! I have always wondered what to do else in the game, but now that this is coming up, this game could relatively be one of the best simulation games!

[@FedgirlTV]

Dude I am SO excited for this update, and it comes out on my birthday which is such an added bonus

[@TheSapling]

Thanks! Keep in mind it will also still be extremely buggy on your birthday

[@LukeRkam]

4:38 After all this time i finally have it...WEED!

[@LizardWizard707]

I don’t know if you have any of this planned but I think it would be awesome to have caves(and burrows for some animals), small insect life forms(which you can probably slightly edit to make crustaceans too), and definitely make it so creatures in the dark are more attracted to the light so you can make angler fish and maybe land versions of them.

[@Mel-soda]

OMG I AM SO EXCITED

[@Didomate]

Best Birthday Gift EVER! I seen the statistic for it, but never knew it was the next episode! One thing I want to suggest that different seasons shorten or lengthen the day or night.

[@tylerlogan4747]

Watching this come to life more and more has, for me been one of the greatest pleasures related to games

[@unusuariopromedio4229]

This game is a masterpiece

[@AG-tl8oq]

LET'S GOOO! DEEP SEA CREATURES!!!!! I hope there will new ways to make other deep sea creatures

[@lourdthebluefoxie]

Imagine starting life at the bottom of the ocean

[@gabrielwottrichdobrachinsk6333]

amazing seeing the game grow and become more and more complex

[@cytello]

Having creatures that can become intelligent and making houses and tools like a village and it takes insanely long to get would be cool like it starts with the nest then like pack hunting and like tools then better nests that eventually get to like houses

[@TheSapling]

See thesaplinggame.com/faq :)

[@averagejoe25031]

Caves would probably be the best update ever, but I bet it would be a nightmare to code.

[@luigibezmenov5346]

I’ve never been so invested in this games devlogs before, I’m really excited for the new mechanics and am looking forward to the next evolution simulated series

[@ecogreen123]

im so excited for deep sea ecosystems!

[@Prehistoric_Entemo]

this is really cool stuff, you are really good at making this stuff actually work. very excited for this update to come out, and hopefully ONE day we will be able to create bugs of an variety of size (i really want to create meganuera and arthropluera)

[@skiniver5307]

I love the sapling my only real complaint is that arthropod mouths are just not viable enough, especially underwater as only two mouths can even survive for extended periods of time in the water. My suggestion would be to take inspiration from the cambrian period and especially creatures such as radiodonts as they were quite successful for their time.

[@dr4st1c5]

If you look closely at the previous devlog, when the new mouths appear, you can see a new type derived from the one from anomalocaris. I'm thinking that he made it only for carnivores or as an analogue for the vertebrate mouth and from it will derive the filterfeeder (base on Aegirocassis). There's a chance he added new ones (I spotted the one base on tullimonstrum)

[@spor_ex]

If I had eyes like that I could swear I could see more than just seeing in darkness.

[@spor_ex]

I don't know, I'll probably see Milkbug or something.

[@nicholasoneal1521]

With every update, this game is becoming a better and better simulation

[@ellotheearthling]

0:08 Well actually things like caves and burrows exist, so technically they would also experience darkness...

[@cheezum]

This game is looking amazing so far. Loving the concept and the updates! (Side note: the eyes seem too human and realistic - somewhat creepy - so could you possibly change them?) Keep up the good work!

[@TriXJester]

When he figures out how to add parasitic and symbiotic behaviors to this game, its gonna go nuts

[@blue_fox4133]

heck yeah! one idea though; maybe make the darkness "cap" certain colors to simulate how colors distort as you go deeper into the ocean. Color vision would still be worse in darker areas, but could still function a little based on what eyes a creature has. game might be fine the way it is though, looking forward to the next update!

[@TheSapling]

Thanks for your input, I'll give this one some thought!

[@FelineFelon42]

Honestly the ever growing scope of this game makes me think that one day it might be seen as the Dwarf Fortress of evolution games, and I am here for it!

[@TheSapling]

If you work on them long enough, all simulation games become dwarf fortress ;)

[@urlocalpagan]

We need more game devs who just enjoy making like this guy 😁

[@erinkarp]

Leaf and eye scaling is HUGE! (pun intended)

[@Vasilyok8411]

Fantastic! So many amazing things can be added to the game 👍

[@Revenge-of-the-myth]

Even though I can not play this game because I do not have a Windows computer, it is super fun to watch and proudly one of the coolest games I have seen.

[@joshuacarre06]

"I never thought to myself that realism is fun and I play games to have fun" - Gabe newell

[@TheSapling]

Perhaps the most important person in gaming right now ;)

[@MrT_Rex]

He made t-shirts... This is getting better and better

[@HugoIsaksson]

I'm so excited!!!!!!!!!!🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉 👇🏻

[@sporepics]

Deep sea! I'm so excited for how this will build up!

[@fearghal10]

So 2 ideas that struck me: 1) from your terminal mention of the mantis shrimp eyes: it would be cool to add some variables to appendages which are not so linear in their development. For example, mantis shrimps, cuttlefish and and goats all have similar, letterbox pupil apertures: devolped to assess threats in crowded near frame environments, evolving similar forms convergently in completely separate phylae. Meanwhile domestic cats have horizontally slitted pupils - while tigers don't - to better identify prey in the near field, low down, surrounded by grass and reads, on the scale upon which they live their lives. Certain traits could be programmed to vary freely (the visual representation could be complicated, but the species data would probably be easy enough) to liberate possibilities from the a la carte evolution tree - which ultimately only serves to make the simulation generate permutations of history, rather than fresh possibilities. So an order might develop 4 pairs of legs, where one set becomes spring propelled kangarootropeds while another set gains webbed toes and ends up some kinda fearsome Plesiosaur. 2) For the deep water to really make an effect, it has to be really, really deep. Potentially you can just exaggerate the factor by which water absorbs light with depth, but in so doing you limit the usable habitat of the deep water animals and incentivise them to overlap with shallow swimmers. It could be interesting to add the option to frame the map against oceanic shelf or not, essentially adding a significant deep water region dramatically falling away more than n metres from land. This would add the dimension to justify such dramatic shifts and incentivise separate biomes forming on one map

[@TheSapling]

Thank you so much for this thoughtful feedback :)

[@Pangolin-6312]

Cool!

[@lazarzilla4871]

Each updates get more interesting along the way, interesting lol

[@Writer-Two]

Nice I can't wait for this!

[@Deathlawli]

the deep ocean sounds like a very cool addition !

[@RocherSystermans-c5v]

I love this update

[@happyemojimemes]

So glad I own this game

[@vediamocosa2876]

Wow im hyped

[@deductivefish53]

I would love to see corals in the ocean

[@MrBlack0950]

Abyssal plain lets goooooo Cant wait to make sea pigs

[@MrZEScott]

Man came in Vsauce style, love the intro, love the video.

[@ElliotVinyard]

This could make an interesting scenario(please have the second part of the update be scenarios)

[@spidermonkeysaredabest]

I THINK THIS MAY BE ONE OF THE BEST UPDATES YET

[@ZEROxyx]

First of all, mushrooms Second of all, more complex behaviours. Not just monkey see monkey do, maybe they could grab things, bring things to different places Mating calls, pheromones. So much could be done with this. Don't hold back! Everyone's supporting you

[@darthhunter69]

i know it will probably be very hard to implement this, but i think cave systems would be super cool and will go very well with these new darkness adapted species also, it would be really cool if the animals could use their other senses to navigate in the darkness, such as hearing and smelling

[@TheSapling]

Without making promises, agreed

[@KaAlKyGood]

It feels like I've been waiting for this video for centuries. EDIT: I asked for the deep ocean and what did we get? The deep ocean!

[@KiraiKatsuji]

Another part to the season let's go!

[@Gob998]

7:26 My new Sleep demon thanks wessel :)

[@TheSapling]

Sorry :P

[@novaraptorus]

Dude this is so fun, just absolutely rad. I'm curious how likely specfically dawn/twilight adapted animals are in the simulation!

[@Amonimus]

Also possibly of note, small plants under large plants don't do so well because of the competition for sunlight.

[@logon-oe6un]

I know it's a bit of code, but ideally Sight could be abstracted to a Sense, with a set of intFoV, intRange, boolPrecise (indicating if it act be used for feeding and other precise tasks) and a few bytes to describe what can be perceived(the colors for eyes, frequency for ears) which will when get merged with the applicable environment specific sparse sets (nerf some eyes at night, smell in dry area, hearing in wind or rain). It's a bit of an algorithm ,but it only needs to happen, whenever the environment changes. Maybe include a limit of how many get the change per loop, so it doesn't lag during a global day-night change. Another potential problem this doesn't address is the source of the signal being concealed, but checking this last should be fine?... This way you could unify sight, smell, hearing (with ultrasonic calls and soft steps) and touch (allowing specific feeler limbs for blind creatures). It also allows for simple vibration or wind senses like some spiders have. Another benefit would be allowing to add new sense-affecting environmental effects (if the idea strikes) easier (smog from fire or volcano, for example).

[@TheSapling]

Thanks for sharing your technical insights!

[@wolfageddon]

You should add a deep sea trench slider so you could make some parts of the ocean deeper

[@Dissmulate]

You should average/blur soil colour so that it doesn’t look like squares but there will still be different colours of soil

[@connorhaley3190]

He should make it so multiple of the smallest plant sizes can coexist on the same tile

[@noneofyourbuisness1679]

Now I'm wondering how hard it would be to include hydrothermal vents near volcanic hotspots on a map in a future update

[@murilot.c3823]

Since this is the scary update, you should add a fruit shape close to Guarana, a brazillian fruit that looks like an eye

[@TheSapling]

Wasn't aware of the Guarana, thank you!

[@Squid_Boy_]

I feel like adding some curved stilt-like legs would be awesome for some spider like creatures!

[@nicksicilia3626]

What about volcanic vents for an alternative food source too marine snow in the deep deep sea, the marine snow could build up as a "plant" of sorts for animals to devour, it could build up in areas with high death rates and add a nutrient factor to that area possibly taking ocean ocean currents into account as well!

[@angadbasandrai4814]

petition for running evolution simulator for 30 days or something like that

[@shilo-j5v]

Idea : add exoskeleton, venom, and maybe antenna too

[@zerguskotus2648]

You're doing a great job

[@waffletop1018]

so cool! but how will sleeping affect aquatic animals? stuff like dolphins or sharks can't really sleep like land animals, they have to "half sleep" by shutting off half their brains at a time, is something like this coming to the game?

[@TheSapling]

Right now there is no difference between land and aquatic animals, but it's definitely an interesting suggestion.

[@zix2421]

I love this project so much! Sad that i can’t afford it

[@masonhunter2748]

The scary nights update

[@FactWithAde]

YO love your vids )if this is to complex you dont have to do these) make them have their own vocal systems and if smart enough language or hybrids that would be cool maybe even viruses and infections that help animals create a immune system our maybe be add bones and bones stucture with gravity (btw these are suggestions not tryna pressure)

[@TheSapling]

No worries, thanks for your suggestions! :)

[@sebastianfries274]

I have a feeling the next update will have caves.

[@Almighty_Mango]

im predicting that the update will be named "scary and spore"

[@neptuntv5373]

And I actually believe u bc fungi is confirmed

[@connorhaley3190]

Scary and scar?

[@connorhaley3190]

Scary and scat?

[@connorhaley3190]

Scary and senile?

[@connorhaley3190]

Scary and silky?

[@doctordogelordtmg9637]

Bit of a crazy idea i just came up with but what if creatures could see in infrared? And say in hot climates creatures that can only see in infrared will prefer the night because during the day they essentially blind themselves and they can't see anything therefore they can't see food or other creatures and have a disadvantage in combat because they can't see and to take this further some creatures could just devolve eyes entirely and entirely rely on their tongues and brain for seeing in infrared

[@TheSapling]

IR and UV are just 'normal colors' in the game, but it doesn't translate to night vision like you suggest :)

[@WmJared]

Exciting! Some ideas below, but this is great even if you ignore literally everything I say! Balance: Inverse square law will help illustrate how little of the algal blooms will have to "fall" to keep low nutrient ocean floor without other influx Darkness: smell is much stronger in water, as is electric propagation (which you can evolve from extreme touch sensitivity) and is only really useful in water or for bugs/small creatures (bees use electric fields to sense which flowers haven't been visited). Smell would also tie into larger herbivores being able to smell small fruits, or introduce the scavenger niche.

[@TheSapling]

Thanks! Without making promises, several of these are also my wishlist :)

[@HmmMemes]

I don't know why but the deep sea part gave me Subnautica PTSD

[@takenname8053]

Finally some late night gaming!

[@katafumiri8527]

i love this idea

[@eziowayne]

Love your content!

[@haojie355]

echo location would work really nice in dark areas

[@cardboardking577]

I randomly remembered this channel and they just posted a video 🥳

[@CWFpresentes]

Man, you need to find a publisher to finence your project, because it is amazing. I already bought, but i know it is hard to do all alone, you need more people.