SLOW MEDIUM and FAST Swing Speed Golfer NEED to KNOW THIS

[@danielcohen3159]

Great analysis, Jay, as always. I bought a LaunchPro to work on my swing, and I've found that with my 80-ish mph 7-iron, I seem to get my best strikes and numbers at about 2º-3º down, with path around 5º in-to-out. But then I started trying to deloft the club as much as I could, to max out efficiency (and I was chasing more distance). And I noticed that A) it was difficult to do this without getting too steep, and B) though I could get way more ball speed and efficiency (and distance) delofting the club more, the flight was getting unruly: extremely flat and descent angle falling into the high 30s/low 40s. When I swing flat-out (which I can't do a lot because of my back and various other aging body problems) it's around 85-87 mph and obviously the ball goes higher and further and stops faster. Unfortunately it stops faster in the rough and the woods and in ponds. Based on what I see here, it seems that even if I COULD get attack angle back to 2º while delofting a lot, my speed is still too low to get a good descent angle. I'd basically just be turning my 7-iron into a 5-iron. So I'm just going to be happy with my 155 carry. My swing may be medium, but dispersion is smaller and scores are lower!

[@AskGolfNut]

Great comment and one that I really think other people can learn from your real world example of the very reason for this video so thanks for the above and I will PIN your comment to the top of the video so everyone sees it 👍👍👍

[@spineguy70]

I’m curious as I’m in the same boat with 80 mph 7i. Wondering what loft is ur 7iron? I’m playing p790 which might be too strong as I feel I’m not getting enough spin to keep ball in air. My 7iron does not fly 155. I’m lost.

[@danielcohen3159]

Hey @@spineguy70 ! I have a lot of 7-irons (perhaps due to a little bit of a problem buying shiny new things 😆) but they're all roughly 30°, except for a set of Titleist 620MBs that I got because apparently golf just isn't hard enough. That one is 35°! The P790 7-iron is 30.5°, so it's functionally identical to my current gamers, JPX 923 Forged. As far as spin goes, there are so many factors that go into how each golfer delivers the club and the resulting flight of the ball. Club path, angle of attack, lie angle, strike - it's a LOT of stuff. The best and quickest way is some time with a PGA pro (who has a launch monitor). Then he or she can tell you exactly where to make improvements. And, just as importantly, tell you the things you're already doing right!

[@pbode1]

Whoa. This is an eye opener, great stuff Jay. spent the last 6 months thinking I was too shallow with my 81 mph 7 iron (thanks to a club fitter putting the 4-5 degree down as ideal for any swing speed), and didn't understand why the -4/-5 degree AoA's didn't carry any or much further. Now I know, and I am happy because I naturally stuggle at getting in deep.

[@AskGolfNut]

Glad it helped! One of many myths that get told and many people that would rather regurgitate what they have been told rather than challenge and prove a certain point. AoA is just another example. Many things change with speed and logically if anyone was to think about the millions of different swings, to say all have to be a certain number is kinda daft 👍

[@MrJnholmes1]

That's a fantastic analysis, Jay and probably the only information that includes analysis using slow swing speeds. Very much appreciated !

[@DavidHarris-pp5yq]

Great to see some content for slow swing speed players . Definitely endorse your comment about playing hybrid irons with a 70 mph swing speed. He club just bails you out, landing softer 👍

[@jasonlewis995]

Excellent Jay! I'm a steep player 7-7.5 AOA with a 33° i230. I get about 165 carry and decent of 44.5°...I've been working hard on not getting so steep to gain decent. But now, I see I can gain carry too! More work to come for me apparently

[@tuamgolfer]

Brilliant analysis. I discovered this by accident when practicing one day and it a month or so to confirm what you have demonstrated in a cracking video.

[@Fractalgeek]

Thank you - definitely going to listen to this several times.....

[@cameronloveless1751]

The usual brilliant analysis and explanation from you Jay

[@bluenose8442]

Really good point. So many hit your irons pure videos out there. My swim’s slow to medium but I find I hit it further with a slower swing. Maybe I just middle it better.

[@majorsmythe1]

Thanks Sir. Just more great info as per the norm now from you on the game!

[@NroShock]

Awesome video Jay. I swing 7i at 90+ so the AOA info here was more a confirmation that hitting down will be better, however, I found this way more useful for my dad. I know my dad's trajectory looks identical to the 70mph 7 deg down hit because he's always been told "You need to hit down on the ball". With aging, he's not swinging as fast and is always rolling through greens, which he commonly says "These greens are too hard!". I'll definitely be showing him your video next time I see him!

[@donkeek8107]

Great video! Insightful

[@jonbuikema7399]

Awesome. I'm in the mid speed range myself 78-80 mph. Carry 145-150. Helps me realize just bruising the ground with lower AOA 1-3* isn't a bad thing for me. I'm ok with not hitting a 7 iron 160+ as long as I know how far it generally goes.

[@mikejackson4910]

Great video! This certainly lines up to what I have experienced.

[@SteveSmith-zz4ih]

Very good info Young man - well done and thank you👌

[@AskGolfNut]

Thanks Steve, it's been a while since someone has called me Young Man 😁

[@dloc2907]

Amazing video!! I always thought more downward force, it goes higher.

[@AskGolfNut]

More down can mean more spin but not always, first and foremost it's the club head speed which is the initial determining factor 👍🏻

[@black325ibeamer]

Nice analysis Jay. I struggle will attack angle. This is very good information. My swing is too flat and I need to increase the attack angle. I will need to spend more time at the range and try to zero in on it.

[@AskGolfNut]

Plane of swing is a very poor indicator of Attack Angle. If you look at how flat I am, and I'm pretty flat, I didn't have problem at all getting downward of nearly double digits. As long as you aren't swinging around your hips I wouldn't worry about it too much 👍🏻

[@wasteland1212]

An excellent demonstration! Really useful and relative info to my slow swing speed which is 76mph. I need to lower the angle of attack, but I don't know how.

[@AskGolfNut]

There's always 2 difficult things to swing changes, 1. Working out what you need to change... The fact you know is a massive bonus. 2. How to change it! This is done mainly working with a coach to work you along the process. But the fact that you know what you need to do to benefit you is a massive help already 👍🏻

[@legend9018]

I know you’ve said multiple times in your videos “I’m not a robot” I’m not so sure lol. Your control over multiple variables of the club and swing has me wondering 🤖 😂

[@AskGolfNut]

No definitely not a robot, just used to doing large arrays of testing etc. It's like a trick shot artist, very very good at what they do but they wouldn't last 2 seconds on Tour. I definitely wouldn't last 2 second on Tour 😁

[@legend9018]

@@AskGolfNut i think you underestimate yourself.

[@rlbjr]

As a low-moderate swing speed player, this is a fantastic video.

[@AskGolfNut]

Thanks very much 👍🏻

[@robertdunne7142]

Another good video Jay. Very educational, would like to see more of this type to be honest. At 60 years young, I'm kinda glad I'm almost at medium swing speed at 78mph with a 7 iron😅

[@AskGolfNut]

Still a good number to be at Robert 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻

[@12345asdff]

Love the content. Keep it up. Definitely help me ask the right questions during my fitting. Can you possibly do a Hybrid review? Maybe 4h, 3h, or 7 wood?

[@jiml9062]

Now, that WAS interesting and informative.

[@AskGolfNut]

Glad you enjoyed the video 👍

[@TenPester]

It makes sense now why I prefer traditional lofts. I'm about 85-87mph with a 7 iron about 4-6 degrees down. Soon as I deviate to stronger lofts, I'm everywhere. If I got to 2-4 degrees down, I'd probably get more height and better dispersion?

[@seancook2264]

Look at Bryson DeChamBeast, his 5iron is 17* loft (a 2 iron for the rest of us). But That’s what delivers 4000-4500rpm spin for him at his club speed. The reverse should apply for slower swing speeds and is why for many clubs bunch up 6-5-4 and longer irons cease to be functional.

[@AskGolfNut]

Absolutely right, changing to a more helpful iron or even Hybrid at that bunching point can grab back the functionality that was lost 👍🏻

[@johnk.atchley5079]

Excellent analysis and advice. Now what would you tell a player with slower swing speed to do to hit down less and gain more height? Should he place the ball a bit more forward at address? Should he make less of a weight shift on to the lead leg and less of a move or the hips toward the target? Not shifting at all and keeping weight even on both legs is almost sure to produce a fat strike. Would you de-emphasize the release at the bottom of the downswing because that tends to deloft the face? I find that if I am repeatedly hitting to the left side of the green during practice sessions in a bay with Foresight launch monitor, I can correct that to get a higher, straighter trajectory by starting out with my elbows closer together, then making sure my right (trail) forearm is more vertical at the top of the backswing with my right wrist bent back in extension, and my right elbow on the way down ahead of the right wrist and close to the body. It also helps to make sure I am turning my back to the target more fully, not just swinging my arms back behind me. And finally it can help to check the club face at address. I have found that if the bottom edge of the face looks perpendicular to the target line at address when my grip is relaxed, during the downswing when my grip tightens it will close the face slightly, thus the ball goes left. Left always means less height, lower descent angle, and more runoff. I can check for this by placing the club just ahead of the ball and tightening my grip slightly to show where the face will be pointing at contact. Sure enough, it is slightly closed. I can then counteract this by making the bottom of the face very slightly open at address. The trajectory will be higher with higher descent angle and straight or slightly to the right side of the green.

[@richardjacobs7632]

I think many high and mid handicappers play hybrids for their mid to high clubs! I know I do, so I don’t hit down on those clubs per se. I use a stack and tilt method, which has really helped my ball striking along with leading with my hands slightly.

[@pauld.103]

excellent insight, helps explain why a slower swing speed shouldn't overemphasize an extreme negative angle of attack. just curious, did you adjust ball position for the different extremes of steep versus shallow angle of attack or just adjust your contact?

[@AskGolfNut]

Mixture of both or either or, golfers can do it a mixture of all ways 👍🏻

[@wormburner7237]

Eye opener. Thanks.

[@AskGolfNut]

Glad you enjoyed the video 👍🏻

[@RunFreeRyan]

I have a question. I swing 80 mph with my 7 iron so medium swing speed so I dont have the ability to hit super down on the ball because of lack of speed. Does the angle of attack need to change depending on the loft of the club? Or should angle of attack be the same for all the clubs in your bag (excluding driver of course)? And what is the recommended angle of attack range for someone with slow, medium, and fast swing speeds? Sorry about all the questions! It's a great video and you hit the nail on the head with your commentary about other instructors saying needing to hit down on the ball but then leaving it at that and probably hurts more people than it helps.

[@markc3653]

I think you make great videos. I do however have a different opinion and different experience when it comes to thin or less deep compared to steep strikes. I play blades and ground interaction is everything do to me being what I would consider steep. I have no problem stopping a ball on a green unless I thin it. Or come in shallower to get a draw. Just my experience with my swing and my clubs

[@170YardsCarry]

Jay nice to see some real world golfer information. I’m at your slow swing speed and suffer the low land angle issue you demonstrated. How does dynamic loft / forward shaft lean tie into this slow swing speed situation? I’m also considering the Hack Motion offer, does the device understand swing speed and change the target flexion at impact so it’s functional?

[@AskGolfNut]

The parameters within Hackmotion can be adjusted go suit your required angles. Always best done any swing change or discovery based on working with a good Coach. Diagnosing where you need to be and then utilising devices such as the Hackmotion gives constant and consistent feedback to progress. Using this in conjunction with a launch monitor you can really tell and see the gains golfers make. If you do think about getting one, don't forget to use my discount code link in a very recent video. I'd rather you get the money off than it going to someone else 👍🏻

[@170YardsCarry]

Thanks Jay, All the Hack Motion videos imply flat wrist at the top, flexed at impact automatically produces more club head speed. I’ll definitely use the code, although if I buy the pro (the one I need) I’ll not have any money left for lessons. I doubt there’s anyone nearby with Hack Motion experience in any case. I’ve my own LM plus so I guess I’ll muddle through.

[@stephenjones9840]

Surely delofting the club with too much shaft lean isn't a good idea at a slower swing speed! You won't have the spin on the ball to stop it on the green. Your better of playing the club at its natural loft as the higher ball flight and spin will help stop the ball.

[@AskGolfNut]

@170YardsCarry if you have your own LM you'll be used to using your data points to understand changes and apply a certain degree of logic to them so you'll be able to do the same with the Hackmotion device and work through systematically angle by angle so you'll know and learn which wrist mincemeat changes flight etc 👍🏻

[@AskGolfNut]

@stephenjones9840 hi Stephen, it's a very misunderstood myth around golf that spin stops the ball, but really in reality anything left lofted than say a 9 iron, the spin is there for consistency of flight and distance, only the highest most aggressively lofted clubs have enough spin for it to be as large a factor as its descent angle 👍🏻

[@nicholasingle6845]

Nice instruction on angle of attack, just wish there was a better expression, see a lot of golfers verging on chopping the ball, because they heard you have to attack the ball with a descending blow.

[@clientbuilding8737]

You have mentioned many times a slower swing player should use hybrids vs long irons. Would you ever recommend a slower swing player use a 5i or utility iron? Thank you for taking the time to do these types of videos. It is very helpful for us older golfers that have lost some speed. Ric

[@AskGolfNut]

Hi Ric, for slower swingers I'd definitely suggest going to a 5 hybrid, but if the choice between iron or utility iron, the utility iron will have more help than the iron... But nothing compared to a Hybrid... As I've said before, it's not a fair fight 😊

[@dominickdelfino7552]

Jay just starting to realize this myself, my ball was creeping back in my stance, I was getting much steeper but coming out lower and chasing more like punch shots. I have been moving the ball forward and seeing much higher flight and longer distances combined with much better stopping power. Is this how you are changing your attack angle and flight in this video? Through ball position?

[@AskGolfNut]

From memory absolutely yes. I use ball position to change trajectory, the further forward goes higher, the further back goes lower 👍🏻👍🏻

[@MrJnholmes1]

Just a thought but have you done any analysis with the ST-X 230 Platinum driver? Thanks

[@AskGolfNut]

Sorry I haven't, I was never (nor was any reviewer) given a sample to test. The Platinum is for the slower swinger and does a very good job but I haven't done any online content with it 👍

[@adrianbennett9134]

Hi jay, as always another great video. Is this the same for hybrids? I'm guilty of "sweeping" my hybrids, more like my woods, but i suspect i should be treating them more like irons and aiming for a slight downward AoA, is that right? regards Adrian

[@AskGolfNut]

I personally hit down on them like it was my 5 or 6 iron, but this is very individual and whenever I test people with hybrids my first thing is to determine how they see them internally and if its easier working with their own ideas or to add to the pot by encouraging a more efficient change to their perception of use with a swing change or thought change 👍

[@jpgroulx3677]

your so right

[@spineguy70]

This is the challenge with us older better players. We try to hold on to our distances with stronger lofts but we can’t hold greens. Can’t go traditional lofted irons because we will just hit it shorter. It’s soooo frustrating. And at 3-4 handicap, rather not start hybrids at 7iron distance. Completely lost….

[@AskGolfNut]

Unfortunately David, it comes to us all and where I transition to hybrid after 5 iron, I can see the day when I'll have more wooded head covers than irons.... But personally it doesn't bother me, I'd rather have what I need to ensure I still enjoy the game 👍🏻 Thanks for the comment and for watching 👍🏻

[@johndupuis7220]

Do you have any videos / advice on how to minimize AOA with irons ? Based on this video I need to get shallower. lol

[@AskGolfNut]

Ball Position is the quickest way to affect AoA although it may also have a small affect on club path also 👍🏻

[@AskGolfNut]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/e4LZYWiInK9siZIsi=QBINYp3FoJVJM8JD

[@AskGolfNut]

Have a look at the video I did a short while ago and see if you can take some ideas from it 👍

[@johndupuis7220]

Thanks , will do.

[@superfly1187]

What about those of us in the middle between 83-88 mph? Should we be closer to the 90 down or the 80 down?

[@AskGolfNut]

Say 85mph 3 - 4 degrees all things being equal would be ideal 👍🏻

[@superfly1187]

@@AskGolfNut thanks! I'm sitting at 2 degrees so that gives me something to work towards

[@gregboggs4721]

What shaft are you using in the club?

[@AskGolfNut]

By memory it was a KBS $ Taper Stiff 120 gram shaft. Luckily I'm not shaft sensitive so shafts makes little to no difference, although I'm very lucky as the vast majority of golfers are hugely affected by shaft 👍🏻

[@adysurfer]

isn't the diffence in this clip more to do with the dynamic loft you are presenting at impact ? the more downward strike at 70mph had 18.9 degrees of loft at impact and the more shallow swing had 28.5 degrees of loft

[@ccarlock8537]

Well the speed allows the ball to climb up the face more upon smash, same for slow speed ball climbing up face more cause more delivered loft. Just Polynomial math after that. Tiger always thinned it reaching out hitting higher speeds and lower grooves so most mass smashing ball so ball climbs up face and then control launch angle to know decent angle