Sonic: Smash's Neglected Character

[@LarryLurr]

Quick note regarding Spin Dash: A grounded uncharged spin dash will stop when it hits a shield. Something I did not fully explain is that you can jump in order to go through shields with spin dash. You can even jump after you hit their shields. I didn't fully explain that in the video, so I wanted to mention it here.

[@mzisaperson7925]

Mr. Meeseeks it’s not bad tho

[@Saskaruto16]

That Tom and Jerry line was great

[@LarryLurr]

@@beastballchampions I'll work on it. When I was editing the video it didn't seem bad, but I wasn't listening to it with headphones, so I'll make sure to do that from now on

[@maxiumderpington5395]

Well also a big reason that sonic is the way he is, is because sakurai has only played sonic the fighters, sonic 06, shadow the hedgehog, and the original genesis games, but decided to base sonic on the first version of sonic which are the classic games

[@IAm-zo1bo]

@@beastballchampions dude just don't watch but we really don't fucking care if it's not the best most expensice mic quality

[@thomaszboss3411]

Man, Sonic is so neglected that the devs didn't even care to make him loss some rings when being sent out of the field

[@braydenhoag9633]

Yeah it could've been similar to when Mega Man dies

[@thomaszboss3411]

@@braydenhoag9633 true

[@bluewind3170]

SO TRUE DUDE

[@chaoticcritical9335]

Why would you want sonic to bleed :(

[@getalife8179]

@@chaoticcritical9335 he loses rings that doesn't mean he's bleeding

[@titaniumsolid546]

I hate how Sonic is treated in Smash. He’s been essentially a staple of Smash now being in 3 games, but there’s still no revamp of his abysmal moveset or at least even a new Sonic playable fighter. :(

[@Max-Rtpmp]

@GetCake DieYoung maybe not a staple but he's in 3/5 smash games plus I don't think he's gonna get out of smash anytime soon so

[@starbluelight12yearsago39]

This is probably the only time Sega ACTUALLY did what nintendont

[@audiovisual51]

Sonic doesn't need another playable character, but I agree he desperately needs a revamp. He also needs more music/remixes, everybody agrees Sonic music is amazing

[@librathebeautifulwarmonk1283]

@GetCake DieYoung he and snake are the first third party characters for example

[@audiovisual51]

@Blue Kid No third party franchise has more than one non-echo character

[@xx_v_xx4373]

It honestly baffles me how to this day Spin Dash and Spin Charge havent been integrated into one move to make room for something more unique

[@ty21st]

It could've been a down tilt like works like the games

[@SleepyKaiju7]

@@ty21st oof no. Keep it a down special. Its a signature move of his so it should be a special.

[@VisionYT-gq1gu]

tbh

[@seeya_le]

why doesn't he have the thing from adventure where he charges it up and then says "Ready..." and then when you use it he says GO

[@xx_v_xx4373]

@@seeya_le that's the move I want to be his new side special. He had it in SSF2

[@gamingandstuff1522]

Castlevania: Gets a character who is incredibly faithful to their franchise plus an echo, assist trophy, stage, boss, and 34 music tracks Sonic: Has been in the series since brawl and still only has one fighter who plays nothing like he should, 20 music tracks with only one remix, two stages but the second one is bland and clearly only there to promote lost world which was exclusive to Wii U, and an assist trophy that really should have been an echo

[@hmmlmao6357]

Yea that's strange but Sonic was in Brawl. And back then in Brawl they didn't represent the characters were there would be exactly the same. Still, Sonic should've change

[@StriderZessei]

TWO assist trophies that should've been playable.

[@tiagoskinwalk4667]

what about fire emblem?

[@orangeslash1667]

@@tiagoskinwalk4667 I think Sakurai takes Rpg franchises a little more seriously than platfomers because it's very easy to give them a Final Smash. This includes Castlevania, because Symphony of the night has Rpg mechanics.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@hmmlmao6357 You know how sandopolis zone from Sonic 3 can be a really long level????? That's Smash Sonic when he's using Timeouts in a nut shell. Sonic game's aren't just about speed there also about platforming and exploration, which can make some levels complex. Sandopolis Zone is the most extreme example of this.

[@chrispo7610]

Its less brawl being rushed and more sonic being put in last minute, they literally had to take his victory theme from 06

[@aronimacaroni2982]

That was always interesting to me, I don’t think there’s another character in this game (besides hero) who has a reused victory theme

[@princebapalapashamalamadin7712]

@@aronimacaroni2982 i think joker's themes are reused

[@aronimacaroni2982]

@@princebapalapashamalamadin7712 Oh yeah i forgot about that one, true, also yeah the sonic 06 theme is a remix of the sonic 3 victory, I was just saying they ripped it directly from 06, which isn't a bad thing I like it (excluding the guitar strum of "his world" which I wish was in smash but whatever)

[@MaximumAddition]

@@aronimacaroni2982 Even then, that isn't even Hero's victory theme in Dragon Quest, it's a bit of the series's main theme where the actual DQ victory theme is an extremely short jingle

[@symphomaniac]

@@aronimacaroni2982 I'm pretty sure Hero's victory theme was composed specifically for Smash. It's the only DQ track that was lol

[@AutZentus]

Sakurai: "I play many video games to make sure the characters feel just like how they were from their respective games." Also Sakurai: *Barely does anything for Sonic making his moveset feel and look lazy while also misrepresenting the series.* Sakurai should really stop showing his bias. Project M and Project + did sonic better justice and representation.

[@impulse5674]

he probably looked up "sonic fighting games" saw sonic the fighters first and then watched someone play it

[@mcmiketastic15]

And Smash Flash 2

[@simonhanna3679]

@Null Dork It did, it had alot more variety than fighters.

[@AoOniBlueMonster2007]

@@mcmiketastic15 ik im really late but super smash bros crusade too

[@KYRA_RISING]

Sakurai just played the wrong games I guess

[@XxXDEATHXxXkid]

Hard agree with this. I was so happy to see sonic in brawl but the way his moveset was is the most annoying thing about him and i love the little dude it sucks honest

[@frenquencie]

Sonic needs a major moveset overhaul. His moves don’t represent him at all. It’s a shame man, he has so much potential.

[@TQo1]

how doesnt his moveset represent him? lol

[@ChimichangaAnimationsInc.]

TQ BD Literally 2 of his moves are spin dashes

[@TQo1]

Azure Arts an that isnt what Sonic does in his games? (:

[@frenquencie]

TQ BD sure, but it isn’t ALL he does. He’s got a lot more stuff from his games that could be represented, but aren’t. Just because he does it in his games doesn’t mean you can give him the same move twice and say it represents him well.

[@ChimichangaAnimationsInc.]

TQ BD Yeah Sonic had Smash 4 and Ultimate to have at least one new special move but what happened nothing at all

[@jerrisatyourwindow]

Most of Sakurai’s knowledge of sonic comes from a dreams collection that had sonic the fighters in it.

[@mastrsonic375]

Sonic Gems collection

[@Enclave_Remnant]

Sonic: the iconic character that nintendo doesn't bother with, he's stuck in a closet underneath the stairs while every other 3rd party character is enjoying dinner

[@davefromhomedepot7416]

Honestly it's almost like they still have a grudge from the console wars, even though they give every other SEGA character so much love and care

[@hydro1089]

@@davefromhomedepot7416 Masahiro just doesnt care much for sonic

[@davefromhomedepot7416]

So true

[@davefromhomedepot7416]

@@hydro1089 but that doesn't make it right

[@hydro1089]

@@davefromhomedepot7416 too bad, i dont care much for sonic anyway. Pretty lame franchise.

[@TheOneTycoo]

If only they decided to take moves from Sonic Battle instead 🤦🏾‍♂️

[@hmmlmao6357]

Maybe both? Because it wouldn't hurt to have Sonic the fighters

[@Eldoofus]

I think his actual moveset is somewhat good, but yeah, taking some inspiration from Sonic Battle other than his D-Air I guess would've been pretty dope.

[@mipo5535]

Sonic actually has moves that comes from sonic battle believe or not. That is his down air and I think his up smash but I'm not too sure

[@mipo5535]

Dude sonic the fighters isn't a bad game

[@TheOneTycoo]

@@mipo5535 I didn’t say that it was a bad game. I just said I wish his moveset had more moves from Sonic Battle. Yeah sure there’s the down air but there was more potential for other moves.

[@GingerBeanie]

I honestly have to ask. Why does so much bad stuff happen to Sonic? Why is he literally treated like garbage wherever he goes? He's such a likable character with a perfect design, but he is so disrespected and for what? An unfinished game that happened 14 years ago? What on earth has this little hedgehog done to be disrespected by the universe?

[@32xios69]

I been asking the same question for a long time.

[@ducestat06savage99]

I know its pretty sad 😔 also sad part is if you look at his character depiction and his personality he's the nicest guy on Earth you'll ever meet

[@Jet_Genesis720]

This is the equivalent of that guy who gets treated like shit wherever he goes and acts like it’s fine

[@ahmadkazan7994]

I mean he did kill the gods of his multiverse and put his ass in front of the god of the sun and called the god of time a loser. Wait for real sonic legit pissed of every god in existance.

[@johnnygang9836]

@@ahmadkazan7994 well he killed most of them after that

[@tenacity25]

I love Sonic. As a character, in his series, in his games. And I've always enjoyed the games. But... he just doesn't play right in smash. He doesn't feel right, he doesn't look right... it doesn't feel like it's Sonic. And I wish he did.

[@mecuriasu]

I agree. He is fast ground speed wise, but as for everything else. It doesn’t feel like Sonic. Givin Sonic’s personality, he would be more of a fast-rush down character with good combo potential... He’s not the type of character to just sit around during a fight.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@mecuriasu kzbin.info/www/bejne/b4iVdH-CiLWNe9U he can

[@Khrene]

Nintendo is getting their revenge. "Slowly, gently this is how a life is taken."

[@hydro1089]

Ummm no

[@mastrsonic375]

How exactly?

[@Khrene]

​@@mastrsonic375 ... They bought out Sonic then immediately turned out a game that was basically their half baked leftover ideas for Mario Galaxy and also made Sonic into a crappy Smash character. Sonic is one of the few characters that doesn't really feel like he brings anything from his actual series except Spindash, Taunts, and Super Sonic. For other characters Nintendo will usually dig deep for references for attacks (The fire emblem characters are great examples), or build engaging play styles around their abilities (Link, Samus, Snake, Belmonts), or even introduce entire mechanics just for those characters (Lucario, Shulk, Bayo, Ryu, Lil Mac, Cloud, etc) They could've had attacks directly taken referencing Sonic Battle, or Sonic Adventure 2's PvP mode but they didn't. They could've given Sonic some break-dancing/capoeira moves as reference to Sonic Battle and series' very clear Graph-art/Hip Hop/Alt/Punk influences, but they didn't. They could've given him a boost mechanic, or a ring mechanic, or a throwable item he could lock on to with his homing attack. But they didn't. Instead he runs around barely fighting, throwing goofy punches with like 3 moves that are basically the same thing and a spring that doesn't do too much for him tactically.

[@mastrsonic375]

Point made

[@mastrsonic375]

However non Nintendo characters have gotten so much attention too, however what still does make sense is thatSonic is more than any Third Party and one of the most iconic gaming characters to Mario why is he this bad still

[@girlweird833]

How does this always happen to Sonic? You want him to be cool or good but it rarely happens?

[@ron_ald323]

Ironic considering that his whole character and personality was *meant* to represent cool

[@Saskaruto16]

PM Sonic is the closest thing to an actual representation of Sonic in smash. He's flashy and cool and uses his speed to create a unique style that is super sick, and doesn't rely on being a campy degenerate like Ult and 4.

[@squiddler7731]

@J Lebleu Flamebait identified, do not engage

[@banjo9158]

@J Lebleu bubsy say hi.

[@cameronguitarhero]

@J Lebleu nice bait

[@DamianDan23]

Funny that literally, every single 3rd party character is unique and based on something, Pacman, Megaman, Snake, Simon, Ryu, etc, but with Sonic they just put hitboxes on a ball model and then added some other moves, it was understandable on Brawl, maybe also in Smash 4, but there is no excuse for them to not remake his moveset

[@hwanniggles187]

Deadass. If an obscure character like Pit (btw i love Uprising. Best 3DS game or in general) can get an overhaul with his specials and some aerials, then Sonic should have too

[@hilmanalfarisy7369]

Sakurai in a nutshell: I put characters in a crossover fighting game and gave them a very unique moveset. Also sakurai: 'aight, giving sonic 2 spindashes would be cool and not revamping him would make them happy, am I right?

[@orangeslash1667]

@@hilmanalfarisy7369 Sakurai doesn't know how to make Sonic more exciting, without making him too much like Caption Falcon.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@hwanniggles187 Maybe Sakurai thinks that giving Sonic the boost will make him over powered.

[@suckerhat]

@@orangeslash1667 spin dash is already overpowered

[@PowerKonata]

What bothers me the most is that, without spin dash/charge, most of his moveset would be borderline garbage. Not only his neutral game is based on them, but most of his combo game too. One can try to play Sonic aggressively, but good luck with those unsafe/mediocre arials and tilts that lead into nothing. Edit: since this comment keeps getting replies that essentially all say the same thing I'll clarify. Yes, you CAN play sonic aggressively, it's just very hard and probably suboptimal, while still not making the character that fun to play against. I still think he should have been reworked. And no, up-tilt is not a good anti-air, it's just a bad move.

[@xx_v_xx4373]

His down tilt has some combos but honestly his up tilt is fucking garbage and should be one of the 1st moves they change

[@ahmadkazan7994]

His tilts are good,except the up one,his Arial game is also very good with the only downside being his wieght and falling speed.But he is indeed very uninspired.

[@HONEST-xj4rr]

Ahmad Kazan What’s good about his air game? They’re all slow and weak.

[@ahmadkazan7994]

@@HONEST-xj4rr his back air,air dodge and up B.Even his side B and down B are one of the best recovery options.

[@juniorsoto7703]

@@xx_v_xx4373 its literally a copy paste version of falcons up smash .. how does that make any sense.

[@jerrisatyourwindow]

I heard on a interview somewhere that some of sonic’s attacks come from virtual fighter, and other sega fighting games. His jab is the “punch, punch, kick” combo in virtual fighters

[@Max-Rtpmp]

True

[@mac_chappy]

I think Project M did really well on Sonic's design and I didn't play that game much but when I did I really wanted to play Sonic. I grew up playing Sonic games and played most of them and I accepted Brawl's moveset of him because he got into the game late. But when I saw Sonic almost was exactly the same for Sm4sh I was highly upset. Not only did they they keep his moveset but they a chose a design that was worst than his Brawl design in my opinion. I say this because Sonic lost so many facial expressions and his iconic Ur2Slow taunt. For being such a huge fan of Sonic I could easily come up with a moveset and getting references from Sonic Advance series, Sonic Battle, Sonic Adventure series and including some idea for the anime Sonic X or even the old 90's Sonic movie. For Dragonball Z Fighters they got GT Goku's moveset entirely from the show's fight scenes. So doing something similar for Sonic wouldn't be hard and from Sonic X you would notice he kicks a lot so I'm suprised in smash he didn't get much cool looking kick moves that represent the character. I'm very disappointed in Sonic for smash and what he has become over the years. I loved this character since I was 4 years old and I'm 27 now he has so much success everywhere else besides the video games. We all love Sonic so much and we all know he can do better. Sorry for the rant near the end...

[@hwanniggles187]

Thats cuz Arc System takes their work to the next level compared to Sora(Sakurai's team)

[@mac_chappy]

Hwan Niggles They sure do I’m just upset that out of all 3rd parties he’s the worst one designed and they have 2 games to change him.

[@hwanniggles187]

@@mac_chappy honestly their work on DBFZ is incredible. Every move is based off an anime scene or manga panel. That shit takes dedication. They also have some of the most beautiful sprite work in their other games like BlazBlue, Undernight and Persona 4 Arena

[@mac_chappy]

Hwan Niggles well smash needs people like them to design Sonic because it’s just sad for what he is. He would have been my main years ago if he felt more towards like Sonic.

[@hwanniggles187]

@@mac_chappy seriously. Or at least have some kinda of separate team to research 3rd party characters to better represent them

[@DedikateSSB]

You know how disappointed i am that Sonic didn't get the PAC-MAN treatment, PAC-MAN is probably the most unique character in the game, with complex but fun gameplay and has tons of references in his moveset. Sonic has the same move like 3 or 4 times, where are the rings!? Why can't he throw rings as a projectile? That's literally all i want, now i know giving him a projectile would make him even more annoying, but still. At least make the rings part of the moveset. Or what about the power up box things that i don't know the proper name of? Or what if he could hover/fly using tails? Where is that sword he had in that one game that no one played? There is so much potential in Sonic, but all he really is is "haha me fast i go fast *spin dash*". I don't have a problem with any sonic players, i don't understand why they get so much hate, but his moveset is so boring.

[@impulse5674]

throwing rings is tails' thing

[@user-ue2rj4ne1v]

the box "things" are called moniters and i dont know how to spell!

[@nonghole4870]

I reckon they should change his dair to that sonic battle kick (shoots them into the floor)

[@sava-sd9eb]

Sonic and the black knight, one of the best sonic games (unpopular opinion)

[@DigibrenoX]

@@nonghole4870 the Sonic flare ?

[@Jet_Genesis720]

Sonic should have these Boost with a boost meter The Axe Kick from Sonic Battle. Make him taunt after successfully hitting someone with a homing attack. Breakdancing down Smash. Make him have actual emotions.

[@CJ-zm5dw]

That fake Ass smile kisses me off so much.

[@CJ-zm5dw]

You forgot light speed dash

[@orangeslash1667]

@@CJ-zm5dw Sakurai believes that having Sonic being faithful to the Classic games and Sonic Adventure 1 is the only way to Balance him. Meaning that a Sonic Unleashed moveset would make him broken.

[@chu-pay]

Sonic Battle: Yo Sakurai and the devs, take moves from this game! Sakurai and the Devs: No Project M: Okay then how about this game? Ehh? EHHH??!! Sakurai: No Sonic the Fighters: *sneezes* Nintendont: USE THAT SHIT!

[@davefromhomedepot7416]

This is surprisingly accurate

[@theimpersonator7086]

One thing that would really help Sonic(and most other characters) to feel loyal to his game would be the Momentum from Dash/Run carrying over to the jump itself. This is how it was in the Classic Sonic Games, and Melee as well, and would be a good physics change for him. Why they removed that in games after Melee is beyond me.

[@mzisaperson7925]

He wasn’t in melee tho

[@theimpersonator7086]

@@mzisaperson7925 Am well aware. When I mentioned Melee, I was referring to the Physics themselves not the character.

[@xSABRET00TH]

MZ Is A Person DUH nigga.

[@imbecile5604]

that would make him so broken lmfao

[@theimpersonator7086]

@@imbecile5604 It would help a lot of characters feel better and have better ground to aerial combos, but it would be a worthy trade off if the Devs actually nerfed Sonic's speed and camping

[@connorbeith3232]

They literally gave Sonic 1 remix while Terry has about 50, starting to think Sakurai doesn't care for Sonic all that much. It's no wonder he hasn't gotten a second character.

[@mastrsonic375]

To be fair you can throw Sakurai bias to that because he loves the FF and KOF Seriez However to Sonic there’s no excuse

[@hmmlmao6357]

Well, Sonic was in Brawl. And characters from Brawl have seen better movesets after that expect for Sonic I guess. Not saying Brawl is bad by any means, just competently, it felt bad. But yea I get you

[@thousandyea]

@@randomperson29395 G&W literally has one character: Mr. G&W; Kid Icarus is represented well enough in Smash; Bayonetta is that “good boys and girls” thing; Yoshi’s case is true tho

[@orangeslash1667]

@@thousandyea Sakurai believes that having Sonic being faithful to the Classic games and Sonic Adventure 1 is the only way to Balance him. Meaning that a Sonic Unleashed moveset would make him broken.

[@thousandyea]

@@orangeslash1667 I wasn’t rly talking about the moveset, but since you touched on it, I don’t rly think they need to give him smth based on unleashed, to me all sonic needs to be literally perfect is his axe kick for f-air and a different side b or down b representation wise, he could’ve been done HEAVILY better

[@ArbiterSky]

Can DLC fighter 2 just be a Sonic rework? I will pay for that.

[@puzzledhypnoshroom1004]

Maybe DLC Challenger pack 9. Next year is Sonic’s 30th anniversary.

[@UltraSTH]

Well we got Pyra and Mythra for FP9. Hopefully we get a new rep and/or a tweaked Sonic moveset next. Maybe give him a few Color Powers and/or his Boost?

[@Fruitlahoop]

Sadly nothing yet and we have one more fighter left. I mean, I just want a small rework in his moves that’s all I ask for. Side B would be boost and his other moves can be implemented from sonic battle. I doubt we’ll get it but one can hope.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@UltraSTH Sakurai believes that having Sonic being faithful to the Classic games and Sonic Adventure 1 is the only way to Balance him. Meaning that a Sonic Unleashed moveset would make him broken.

[@sonicspeed3056]

Sonic haters, Smash toxic community: we hate Sonic Sonic: I missed the part where that's my problem

[@namenamename390]

It's so important to differentiate between the character and the player. Don't ever hate on a player for playing a specific character that encourages playing a "lame" way. That's the character's fault, not the player's. The player just chose a character they like and play the strategy that's most optimal for winning.

[@ahmadkazan7994]

@valy0f so what?They want to represent a character they love,but if the creator is so unknowledgable about the series what do they do?

[@orangeslash1667]

@@ahmadkazan7994 Sakurai undersands Sonic. He just doesn't think it's possible to give him a boost without making him overpowered.

[@pearshapedbrain]

8:43 so basically 3d pokemon games?

[@SleepyKaiju7]

Oof

[@thekeyandthegate4093]

"PLZ UNDERSTAND, GAMEFREAK IS A SMALL INDIE DEVELOPER SO IT'S OKAY THAT THEY DIDN'T PUT IN EFFORT INTO THE GAME"

[@TusksTheAxew]

@@thekeyandthegate4093 I know you're being sarcastic and taking the piss out of people who say that, but *God* people like that piss me right off. Not having a go at you, though.

[@AlphaStoutland]

Dang, you're right 😳

[@aidanhayes3571]

Don't lump xy in with that 7-8 shit

[@topsecret770]

Really just give him Banjo's side special and call it boost. Easy.

[@user-ue2rj4ne1v]

AguAgu-sama. lol

[@alexbaribeault]

Oh god. Nononono. Not like that. Are you insane??

[@topsecret770]

@@alexbaribeault you're right, we also need to add him taunting after he attacks during lag frames like Incinaroar. The gage for the boost is based on if the Sonic player can neutral special sucessfully 3 times in a row.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@topsecret770 Sonic is the definition of hit and run character.

[@dyland1842]

@@orangeslash1667 no, not really. Hes more of a get in quick and play aggressively, which i feel should be represented in smash

[@turtleguymcturtle4303]

"Sonic the hedgehog is one of the first thrid party character's to join the roster" Snake:Colonel it seems i don't exist

[@petery6432]

I like this kind of video. I would like to see one on Ganondorf or Kirby, who have similarly uninspired movesets.

[@librathebeautifulwarmonk1283]

I NEED ONE FOR DORF

[@hilmanalfarisy7369]

Kirby be like: 10% other stuff, 90% feet moves I'm not ranting about kirby but I just want it to look accurate as a meme

[@agentcheriee]

If Sonic’s Moveset were taken part from Sonic Colors, I might’ve secondaried him.

[@hyde7100]

Colors sucks and wisps are useless

[@fathernigga]

@@hyde7100 people just overhype the shit out of sonic colors, I would say it's ok but I would never say that it's good. Unleashed and generations are better

[@IAm-zo1bo]

It's sad that all 3d sonic games not one of them have a huge positive opinion and they are all controversial

[@Hippolover-xd]

@@fathernigga it’s a fun Nintendo platformer. It isn’t really a sonic game

[@fathernigga]

@@Hippolover-xd the only sonic game that is like a Nintendo platformer is sonic lost world. Definitely not sonic colors.

[@sonicspeed3056]

Wealth and fame he ignores, Speed is his reward. Look out, life is a big adventure. Here comes Sonic the Hedgehog.

[@itsthegasman449]

Audio from a Sonic match: SCREE

[@runningwithscissors8612]

One thing that bothers me is the weight nerf. Instead of reworking his spammable options from smash 4, they nerfed him from being mid-weight to weighing less than isabelle

[@jamiegioca9448]

Sonic: I'm poorly represented Ganondorf: First time?

[@orangeslash1667]

@Cliven Soewarna Ganon is known for one thing and one thing only, he has the Triforce of POWER!!!!!!!! That's exactly what he has in Smash, Power!!!!!!! However to make sure he's balanced, that's it.

[@dhruvds6855]

sonic is treated as that one friends who's so nice, genuine and cool that no one cares about. I hope he gets revamped for his 30th anniversary or gets another fighter. I will always love sonic don't care on what anyone else says, big part of my childhood and I know im not the only one

[@StanleySophana]

New idea move-sets for Sonic: N-Air (Insta-Shield attack from Sonic 3 & Knuckles), F-Air (Axe Kick from Sonic Battle), D-Air, (Bounce Jump from Sonic 3 & Knuckles and Sonic Adventure 2), and Side Special (Sonic Boost used in Modern Sonic games)

[@SleepyKaiju7]

Lol not that new actually quite standard of what most of the community wants. There's some more to add that would really help out his moveset though.

[@Gamermario-lb3rq]

I’d change his down smash, neutral combo, and his up-tilt to stuff from Sonic Battle also.

[@SleepyKaiju7]

@@nospinic7117 easy. His spring jump/time travel animation from mania/sonic CD respectively. The one where he twirls upward.

[@SleepyKaiju7]

@@nospinic7117 sounds good to me

[@ballisticboo7808]

Hear me out- keep his current down air because it looks like the Stomp, make the bounce happen if you down b in the air.

[@captaincofthesky7157]

There's a lot that should've been taken from sonic battle.

[@sayzar9474]

Ganondorf is definitely THE neglected character in smash but Sonic is a very close second.

[@kingbill8155]

Sonic’s multihit moves just don’t work like half the time the second hit of up air and up tilt doesn’t hit I would really love if they made his multihit moves more consistent it’s a small change compared to what’s talked about in the video but it’s what I would like along with changes or a straight up redesign of him

[@Mystravian]

If they were consistent they'd have to take away quite a bit because of how early his kills off the side he can get.

[@internetmovieguy]

Project m gave him soooooo much love. Why can’t smash ultimate do that???

[@cnk9822]

@Jeremiah Soto ok crybaby.

[@supasyndrogod1126]

Jeremiah Soto except he doesn’t have 3 spin dashes. Only 2, the other is Homing Attack. His aerials are actually pretty good, down tilt is a combo starter, and his other tilts are combo FINISHERS. Alts are kinda bland, woulda been down to have at least a red Sonic to reference Knuckles.

[@cnk9822]

@Jeremiah Soto up air does not work? HOLD THE FUCK UP, not only is his UpAir a combo tool but also it's a great kill move , his down tilt conects with a Homing Attack/Fair, it can be also used to edgetrap but it's not recommended to use it in that way.

[@supasyndrogod1126]

Jeremiah Soto you can survive down air spikes. upair SUCKS, i REALLY hope it gets fixed someday. Foward tilt is ok, its just a combo finisher and can also kill people at the ledge, at a high enough percent and at Sonic’s feet

[@supasyndrogod1126]

CNK 98 Upair is a good combo tool and YES it can kill, but it just doesn’t connect well

[@allanbelizaire9545]

The axe kick on sonic would be badass

[@jaytc8521]

To be fair, when you look at all the main Sonic games and exclude the 2 Sonic fighting games (Sonic Battle and Sonic the Fighters), there is not much to go with actually... Most of Sonic move sets in the games are just spindashing, rolling and homing attacking... Especially in the classic era. I guess a few of the other special moves from main games you could consider are: SA1/SA2: Light Speed Attack/dash SA2: Bounce (also in 06, Lost World and S3&K with Bubble Shield) and the summersault Heroes: Tornado Attack, Rocket accel and that fly kick he does sometimes when pressing the roll button 06: slide kick (not even gonna bother with those other useless gem powerups) Boost era games: Air dash (which is also the fire shield from 3&k), the boost, the stomp and the slide (not gonna mention the wisps) and that kick from Lost World most of these are rolling based or in a ball form (also the reason why i didn't mentioned the instashield), even new moves such as the dropdash are basically variants of the spindash. Even when you consider cutscenes such as CD intro 06 Intro Unleashed intro, most of his moves when he is attacking is in ball form, so looking at his smash move set, I can kinda see why it is what it is... Not saying I agree with it but I see why

[@N3Knowledge]

The thing that bothers me the most about Sonic is that not only has his moveset barely changed between games, but he’s so much less expressive in the newer games. Brawl Sonic has a more modern look, with the longer quills and darker blue tone, and just has so much more character. His homing attack has him strike the Adventure pose after it, his face is a lot more expressive, and lets be honest, Jason Griffith’s voice fits Modern Sonic so much better than Roger Craig Smith. Now, his movements look more stiff and not fast and free flowing, since his quills barely move now, along with them being much shorter, t he adventure pose isn’t there, his voice just isn’t as good, the character model looks so much more dead than the Brawl model, and he doesn’t even say “You’re too slow” anymore. Like wtf, why would you change that of all things? Yes, some of these things are SEGA’s fault, but it’s Nintendo’s fault for not changing his moveset to at least compensate for these less expressive miscellaneous changes. It just sucks that Modern Sonic has had so much of his life just sucked out of him, both in Smash and in the current Sonic games.

[@hwanniggles187]

He never did the Adventure pose after a homing attack. Thats only in Project M which is how Sonic should have played

[@ahmadkazan7994]

Like "rushed" brawl sonic had more expressions than his later ones.

[@N3Knowledge]

@@hwanniggles187 Oh crap I have no idea how I confused the two, but yes, Sonic should play like that.

[@orangeslash1667]

@@N3Knowledge Sonic was originally going to be voiced by Ryan Drummed in Sonic Colors, but Sega believes that he's too expensive.

[@rocketcrushergaming9445]

*Him explaining the final fantasy example*: Me: So you mean like Pokemon Sword and Shield?

[@Callum-sp8wj]

I’d love so much if he got a moveset overhaul. But I’m not getting my hopes up for this happening in ultimate...

[@nickbottom6236]

Sakurai chose Sonic the Fighters and the Genesis games as the basis for Sonic's moveset because he loves Virtua Fighter and he much preferred Classic Sonic to Modern when he played through the series for inspiration. And we all know he refuses to overhaul a moveset once designed. I've been a Sonic fan since the Genesis days and I've mained Sonic since Brawl, Ultimate is the first time he's felt fun to play, but I've always loved his moveset. Just change his Side-B to Boost, make it like a non-invincible Wonderwing, with a bar only resets on a new stock.

[@universaljoyconboyz4ever161]

Im glad in a way to. If he chose pac mans redesign for smash oh god

[@user-ue2rj4ne1v]

me: *gains nintendos email* me: yes...YES...*types "ADD SHADOW TO SMASH*

[@Mark---W]

The inspiration needs to be adjusted from Sonic the Fighters to Sonic Battle. Just like fusion between Ultimate to Project M.

[@speakeazy2686]

Low key I wouldn’t mind that Boost idea,as that could become a kill option for a side B instead of a spin dash,and homing attack because it could be used to kill,using sonic it takes forever to kill someone

[@LexStormA]

"'If the character is fun to play' is more important than 'if the character is new or old or if the character is recognizable by everyone', except for Sonic though. Fuck that guy" -Masahiro Sakurai

[@ManaAdvent]

Honestly one way to make Sonic more unique is too implement the Elemental Shields of Sonic 3 to his shield block and have it cycled. Electromagnetic Shield would draw in items on the battlefield close to him Fire Shield would damage those who melee attack Bubble Shield would reflect projectiles and bounce off him.

[@pheonix2014]

The fact that Sonic only has ONE remix and thats Brawls remix of Angel Island. And his second stage is from Lost Cause. Any other stage couldve been used like Rooftop Run, Stardust Speedway, Speed Highway, FUCKING CITY ESCAPE! ANYTHING!!!!

[@arcana6495]

I actually think he's pretty accurate to his games because he's rushed and broken.

[@themetallicblueblur4761]

That's accurate for most recent games which is dissapoint

[@ahmadkazan7994]

Yeah sure *sonic mania,team sonic racing release*

[@ahmadkazan7994]

@DarkSonic180 the only shit here is you.

[@arcana6495]

The point of this comment was about how some sonic games were rushed, whether they were good or not. It was just for laughs and I don’t want to start any debates about which games are good or not.

[@cnk9822]

Bro it's 2020 saying that Sonic is trash is so 2012, grow up please.

[@DeadEye456]

Has anyone noticed how Sonic is the only character from his franchise?

[@kevinflores908]

Yes I want more characters from his franchise 😭

[@fernando98322]

Kid me was so excited to see Sonic join Smash back in 2007. I mean, I played through the entirety of Subspace Emissary on launch day (and the next day) waiting for Sonic to appear and help the Nintendo cast (funny how that worked LOL). I haven't touched Sonic since Brawl. Fighting as and against him gives me no joy.

[@thekingbradable]

2:35 YEEEES. I keep saying this. I actually played this game and this game has crazy things they could have gave to Sonic

[@Crocodile7104]

This a great video. Its a real shame that some characters in Smash havent been done the justice the deserves. Another extremely neglected character is Wario. He debuted as Mario's exaggerated rival and immediately evolved into a Herculean and macho treasure hunter with his platformers and the 33 Mario spin offs till brawl. Warioware is an app tier minigame franchise he only got because the devs didnt have faith in their franchise and wanted to use a popular character to promote it. Wario has been retconned into a pants pooping biker and is a side character that only serves as a plot device for the series's "story". And for some reason Sakurai choose the spin off that retconned him into a pants pooping biker, where hes a side character, a few cutscenes where he used that bike and literally one minigame where he farted over his original line of games and the spin offs that followed suit with his Herculean strenght, wrestling moves, shoulder bashes, power ups, transformations and bombs. Waft is both mechanically and visually ridiculous to say the least. The player is rewarded with a OD move for absolutely nothing.

[@theinktician]

Wow - I've felt this way since the 1st time i played Brawl. Like yeah he runs fast but wow this just feels wrong.

[@voltingmaster5458]

You know you fucked up bad when Project M does a better job at making a Moveset for Sonic.

[@7-Ace]

Aaa you finally did it Larry, Great job now back to my video

[@Sightless-vz2wh]

Thank you Larry for this video. I love Sonic...like I mean Sonic 2 was one of the first games I’ve ever played and the use of the Sonic Adventure music towards the end of this video...it was so good. Sonic is so neglected in Smash I hope they can fix his move set at some point...

[@esp371]

It's really sad, honestly. Sonic deserves so much better

[@sonicthedgehog8976]

Sonic doesn't get the love he fucking deserves and it makes me sad. He's still my favorite character in the SSB series, Nintendo couldn't give him new moves or even taunts, SEGA can't make a good Sonic game, it's like they don't care for him. Hopefully that'll change this year.

[@orangeslash1667]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/b4iVdH-CiLWNe9U are you sure???

[@xbgsheikiii3593]

this is why ssf2,project m/+ and super smash bros. crusade exist

[@KYRA_RISING]

This stings. Not only did his moveset suck from the get-go, but he got even worse with each new game. We lost Jason Griffith’s awesome voice, and all the heart and soul that Sonic still had went out the window. He’s a lot better in SSF2, but in mainline Smash? I sometimes hate the fact that I main him, as if I were trying to cling to a spark that just isn’t there. Why, why, why… why can’t Sonic be better?🥺

[@raydaal3265]

I think it'd be cool if sonics side b got changed to the boost mechanic from the modern games. I would imagine it similar to banjo side b, so make it a strong kill move. Sonic would have to collect rings to fill up the bar. If he has meter he can dash around

[@Jejeco]

hey larry, big fan! great content, keep the good work!

[@Benloadeon]

Just imagine if they did rework patches or DLCS like League of Legends for veteran characters of the Smash series like him to correct these flaws

[@ergot4716]

He’s pretty much the red headed stepchild of smash.

[@ThatsATHICC_RAY]

If they can make flipping Mario work, who is even more simple then Sonic, then they can surely do Sonic.

[@fawks7632]

Also Sonic's music selection compared to other guest characters is very slim. Not a single new remix in 4 or ultimate. Very neglected.

[@adamyohan]

This was great. Larry's content is becoming better with every video.

[@Sencevious]

Sonic: takes down Everyone Everyone: *he's to powerful*

[@ThatsATHICC_RAY]

I have a few ideas for some of his moves. Dash attack: Sonic turns into the frenzy wisp and chomps at the opponent (Frenzy wisp) Down B: Just the normal down B with the side B animation (Spin Dash) Side B: Sonic uses his boost animation from Unleashed and Generations and boosts forward damaging any opponents in the way (Boost) Up B: A trail of rings appear right above Sonic, and he dashes across them doing very small damage if enemies get in the way (light speed dash) Neutral B mid air: A green target will appear on the opponent if they are nearby when you jump, and if you hit b while the green target is locked onto them, sonic will home in on them, but because of the target appearing before he attacks, the opponent has time to react. (Homing attack) Final smash: A large hit box will appear around Sonic similar to Meta Knight. An animation begins and the seven chaos emeralds circle around Sonic. Sonic transforms into Super Sonic, and he repeatedly dashes into them at light speed, only to beat em up similar to how infinite did in Forces. Just, instead of all the other characters, it’s super sonic. (I can’t think of a name) Neutral B grounded: Sonic transforms into the drill wisp, launches into the air, dives into the ground, and stays there for a little. The longer you charge up neutral B, the higher he will launch and the more damage he does. You can still attack Sonic when he is under the ground and you can also move Sonic when he is under ground. (Drill wisp) And, that’s all the ideas I have. :P

[@StinkoBrownTV]

great choice of music, Larry

[@princeali7871]

They could change his double jump from just some ordinary double jump to him using his lighting shield as he does in the games, his aerial down b could be changed to him using his bounce bracelet and his normal down b could become his boost. That would appeal to the classic fans, adventure fans and boost fans, fan service for the three main subcommunities within the sonic community.

[@peterevans2854]

I am glad you mentioned how exhausting it is to run the timer out, all while camping( not using this term negatively ) well, using dashes properly, and overall playing a legitimate strategy. I have tried to play sonic as a rush down like Fox or Captain and my lord it does not work his tool kit doesn't shine that type of way. Good video Lurr.

[@asscracker3970]

Am I the only one who was expecting some sonic colors inspired moveset for ultimate?

[@Eddiexornela]

Larry’s commentating is getting better, he doesn’t end his sentences with a high pitch anymore

[@renoud4093]

7:38 I know you aren't talking about Dedede in that segment, but lowkey he's also pretty poorly implemented in Smash lmao, Gordos cannot be hit in Kirby games, for example. That said, amazing video, you tackled the issues with Sonic really well.

[@gamejitzu]

I mean dedede did get changed in some way. His back air is different for like the third time (though that doesn't do much to represent him better)

[@agentdiamond9211]

Gordo Toss was probably chosen because the developers thought it was more in-character for 3D. That being said, I still like Brawl 3D the most. His chaingrab in that game was a perfect representation of 3D himself: goofy, weird, and often tries to cheat his way out of bad situations.

[@greggggggggg]

i think dedede was implemented pretty well. he's big, slow, and predictable, just like a boss fight. he also hits like a truck to make up for it

[@renoud4093]

@@greggggggggg Yeah but the thing about Dedede is that, while he definitely feels heavy and slow, is that his moveset doesn't really reflect how he fights in the Kirby games: Down B is fine because it represents an attack of Kirby's hammer copy and because it was an original idea from Brawl, but nowadays Dedede has an actual jet hammer that he uses when he becomes Masked Dedede. Speaking of which, Masked Dedede is barely even represented outside of his new Final Smash Waddle Dee toss was a really good move since it reflected how he makes Waddle Dees fight for him (and it actually despicted Gordo way better than it does now lmao). As stated above, Bair was changed 3 times and for no real reason. Brawl Dair is based on another attack from Kirby's hammer copy and that Dedede can also use when he's playable, but it got replaced in sm4sh. He more-or-less has a very similar problem to Sonic's, he fits the archetype pretty well but his moveset doesn't represent how he is in his home series.

[@L00D__]

Dedede still has better representation than Sonic by a long shot Also why would you *want* the Gordo's to not be hittable, they did that to make the move balanced

[@soyeah64]

If they just replaced half his moveset with wisps, it would be so much more fun to both play and fight against him. Imagine down B being the drill wisp or side B being the burst wisp or forward smash being the frenzy wisp. Idk i just think you could be so creative with those.

[@vannessaandrade490]

Sonic has that forward smash

[@karuta-hu6gq]

Sonic unleashed, thats all ima say

[@brandonbriggs5520]

Probably another reason why Sonic's moveset is this right now and didn't change because Sakurai at the time didn't play A lot of Sonic at all. The only Sonic games he played are Sonic The Fighters, Shadow The Hedgehog, and Sonic 06. That's when figuring it out the moveset I'm not making this up it's true. Sonic is really not popular in Japan which may be why Sakurai didn't play many Sonic games.

[@ahmadkazan7994]

What?Sonic was made in Japan,sonic CD and the adventure games were made in Japan.

[@brandonbriggs5520]

@@ahmadkazan7994 ? I know Sonic is made in Japan but I'm saying he's not POPULAR in Japan

[@orangeslash1667]

@@brandonbriggs5520 Rpgs mean everything to Japan.

[@kaidoq8647]

As long as you know the different uses for spin dash and spin charge you can say whatever you want about em 😂

[@julianlamonica9450]

I feel like if they just changed his side b to the light dash and have it function like falco’s side b it would make Sonic’s moveset just that much better.

[@nezarredondo6101]

As a long time Sonic fan, it hurts me to death what happens to him in Smash. I can't help but agree with those who call him "boring" and "lame", he is just as Iconic as Mario, Megaman or the Belmonts, unlike him they have movements that represent very well thir home Franchises, Sonic deserved better

[@mini_k]

If a it was a fanmade mod that gave sonic his sonic the fighters moves it'd be loved. Sonics base moves are fine in animation, they fit him fine and are distinct, along with his entirely original moves like back air and up smash. Complain about the spin dash moves all you want but people need to stop suggesting side b alternatives that are STILL movement options, they should do a side b thats primarily an attack and it doesn't HAVE to be a reference, just something that fits the character like a spinning kick attack of sorts.

[@artistanthony1007]

There's so many moves and techniques he can do, you don't want to know how many he has because it'll melt your brain. 😅

[@remukko5178]

His side b could easily be a short boost. Just dashing forward with a slight shockwave behind him that gives enemies behind a slight knockback, but you have to be careful because you could just run off the map.

[@Cutzerella03]

This is sad.Sonic's moveset had so much potential. :(.Hope if there is another smash game that this changes.

[@blueblitz283]

sometimes it hurts to be a Sonic main

[@GaMastrr]

How I wish it was: -Sonic gets tweaked a moveset with several references to Sonic games instead of mostly variants of Spin Dash Details: -Sonic strikes a pose whenever he lands a successful Homing Attack, like he does in his games -Sonic remains just as expressive and with personality and he was in Brawl -when Sonic dies, rings come out of him, complete with the losing rings sound effect -For Sonic’s victory theme, it extends and plays the whole stage clear music from Sonic 06, similar to Joker and Cloud Extra fighters: -Tails -Knuckles -Shadow (Sonic echo with a few differences) Items: -Fire Shield -Lighting Shield -Bubble Shield Assist trophies: -Blaze -Silver Stages: (Windy Hill removed) -Green Hill -Chemical Plant -Sky Sanctuary -City Escape Boss for Classic Mode & WOL: -Dr. Eggman in the Death Egg Robot Number of music tracks: 50, including some new Smash remixes (if Fatal Fury can have up to 50 songs, there's no reason that Sonic can't, especially with how good Sonic music is)

[@kevinflores908]

OMG THIS IS AMAZING, THIS IS WHAT I WANTED SMASH TO DO FOR THE SONIC FRANCHISE. AND THAT WINDY HILL ZONE IS GONE CUZ I HATE THAT STAGE 😭

[@BashslashSlayerTv]

His moveset was actually based off sonic 06 the most from what sakurai played. There’s an interview on this too if you need proof

[@LarryLurr]

That has to be a mistranslation or he's speaking about his special moves because almost all of his regular attacks look like something from Sonic the Fighters. I really doubt Sonic's regular attacks are taken from Sonic 06

[@ahmadkazan7994]

He did play it but 90% at least of sonic's moveset is smash original=ball animation on everything or sonic the fighters.

[@sonicspeed3056]

Smash doesn't deserve to have Sonic...

[@fishxy2123]

Hard being a Sonic main, but over time I think it becomes a natural part of playing Sonic. Or any character.

[@robertoalexandermendezmore408]

2:17 bro, is just obscure outside the fandom, sonic the fighters is very well known in the comunnity