Study: Weak Self of Covert Narcissist, Secondary Psychopath

Some grandiose narcissists and all primary (F1) psychopaths have a relatively robust self-concept and stable self. Not so vulnerable (covert) narcissists and secondary (F2) psychopaths (aka borderlines).
Stephen M. Doerfler, Maryam Tajmirriyahi, William Ickes, Peter K. Jonason, The self-concepts of people with Dark Triad traits tend to be weaker, less clearly defined, and more state-related, Personality and Individual Differences, Volume 180, 2021, 110977, ISSN 0191-8869, doi.org/10.1016/j.paid.2021.1...
Why Poor Sense of Self Underlies Dark Triad Traits by Grant Hilary Brenner MD, FAPA in ExperiMentations (Psychology Today)
www.psychologytoday.com/us/bl...
Campbell, J. D., Trapnell, P. D., Heine, S. J., Katz, I. M., Lavallee, L. F., & Lehman, D. R. (1996). Self-concept clarity: Measurement, personality correlates, and cultural boundaries. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 70(1), 141-156.
Judith M. Flury & William Ickes (2007) Having a weak versus strong sense of self: The sense of self scale (SOSS), Self and Identity, 6:4, 281-303.
Find and Buy MOST of my BOOKS and eBOOKS in my Amazon Store: www.amazon.com/stores/page/60...

[@iseultmackinnon8197]

traumatised as a child until you become a robot, that is horrific.

[@TheRonaldbaxter]

The “covertly” narcissistic HR manager at my office can switch on the grandiosity in the office environment. Outside of the office it is usually anxiety and fear hidden behind a mask of aloofness.

[@Sushigang123]

I always felt like I can’t and hate lying , bc it’s like I’m betraying myself. If u DON’T have a self, there’s nothing to betray! I never understood how narcs are ok with so much lying. Now i think i do

[@Shellyspurr]

I have BPD or had and I've hated lying for so long, it has no use to me, but my narcissist husband will not "lie" , but manipulate the truth. Example: he stole half my pain meds I need (opioids) and I confronted him on it, he asks "do I know where they are? Over and over when I told him to be truthful.

[@katie8068]

Yes that makes so much sense. There’s nothing to betray.

[@ChristinaFromYoutube]

They aren't lying. Yes thats the key. They have no truth. They just say anything they want and they believe it in the moment too.

[@deliamariaalandetemanotas4931]

Makes a lot of sense

[@wave8867]

True 💯 Narcissists will always evade the truth, or lie by omission. Just to avoid any repercussions and to have that 'plausible deniability'.

[@dorasneddon774]

This explains so clearly why it is not possible to do anything much, no matter how much empathy or effort exerted, to develop a better relationship with a covert narcissist. Thank you for all your excellent work and the clarity of your presentation.

[@MariahSprinkle]

They do enjoy being pampered, showered with gifts and expensive dinners. That's about the only way to get them to temporarily pretend they're invested in the relationship. But once they drain you of all your finances and you can't afford it anymore then they devalue you and start looking for your replacement. Also being desirable and attractive to other women/men makes them put in effort to keep you around but only out of pure jealousy/envy. My ex covert narc saw me trimming my facial hair in the mirror one day before I left the house and she asked who was I getting all good looking for. I said for her and I don't like looking unkempt. The next day she came up and handed me my shaver broke into pieces and said her son had gotten ahold of it and broke it. There was a piece missing where I couldn't put it back together too so I couldn't shave until I bought a new one. But I thought it was insane she was so jealous of me looking good in public that she broke my shaver so I would look scraggly and unkempt.

[@dorasneddon774]

@@MariahSprinkle that is insane!

[@asnoopy]

I said in the past that he was like a robot..

[@suzystone244]

The best definition of a narcissist that I have experienced. The infinite representation of who he thinks he is.

[@xiyx9748]

Personally this also makes sense from the point of view why these people are so scary

[@libbynovotny9979]

your book malignant self love was the very first book I bought and read on narcissism and it saved my life..having spent 8 off and on years with one

[@samvaknin]

Please post a review on the book's Amazon page.

[@dr.sakeenajahan4952]

@@samvaknin I just started reading it on Kindle and must say it blew my mind. Amazing work. Your writing style was very engaging for me.

[@samvaknin]

@@dr.sakeenajahan4952 Thank you.

[@Cocomonkey2002]

100% agree with these findings. I have dealt with several covert narcissists and my gut threw up red flags like crazy. One in particular has no sense of self, she’s hollow snd my subconscious literally rejects her. I would have physical symptoms of anxiety and emotional outbursts after interacting with her or exposure to her. She copied me for years till I went no contact. I definitely sense psychopathy from her. This study describes her as far as the covert narcissism aspect. People will say imitation is the highest form of flattery. No it’s not! It’s creepy when someone wants to be you.

[@nowimfollowingu3925]

I went through exactly the same with a male colleague, I foolishly ignored the red flags until it was too late, and he also copied me, subtilely at first. Nobody knows what it’s like until they go through it personally

[@alicewonderland8027]

My ex is trying a 'life takeover'. I have no other word for it. He moved to my city, is contacting my ex bosses/ collegues/ friends, he is now visiting my doctor. When I got a company car, he had to get one too. Many more examples.. The creapiest thing I ever experienced in my life!!

[@Shellyspurr]

The one thing I have noticed in my narcissism survivor groups is every single narcissist has the same script when asked why they did something or the same exact manipulation tactics word for word sometimes.

[@fannilein8715]

Yes, word for word!

[@JupGem]

It’s shocking, isn’t it?! ~ the Exact same playbook

[@katie8068]

I have noticed the same. It was shocking to begin with. The txts the manipulative emails etc etc exactly the same words just different names/circumstance.

[@ChristinaFromYoutube]

That they are demon possessed is the only way i can account for the hive mind they have. How does a narcissist from North Carolina say word for word what one from the Philippines says? Its too eerie to dismiss

[@rooktheraptor24]

This is what I've been keying in on lately as well. You called it a script, and I think that's perfect. They're bots. It doesn't matter what time or place they come from, once they adopt this as their strategy in life, they operate off of these pages only. I'm not a religious person, but it is really hard to ignore the parallels between people with this spirit - this script - and the idea of people possessed or influenced by unseen forces/entities.

[@katherinel1801]

I don’t know how I missed this when it was posted but mind blown 🤯. This makes total sense. I need to listen to this several times as I want to soak it all in.

[@davidrife1999]

This is also an explanation describing the intensity of the damage done to those subjected to the abuse resulting from relationships with pd disordered people

[@Starlightndust]

This is Gold. I could use questions to detect Narcissists based on traits or state based answers. Thanks Sam. ❤

[@deldaosal.5141]

It does not surprise me, that the study supports Prof Vaknins‘ theories tbh. With each Video Prof. Vaknin helped me to get to know myself better. Each day. It was so painful, that I never really understood the processes inside of me. I always knew somehow that I thought different, felt different. Always kind of … sad. Without any specific reason I could name. It is almost perfect how he describes in detail every single thought and feeling that I had. Thank you. You helped me finding myself. You did something I never was able to. I owe you the world.

[@axelrobertsson9008]

This makes so much sence. Thank you! 🙌🏻

[@anlaugschreinerberge4588]

I love listening to you! 🙂👍🏻 And this was especially gripping. Very interesting! Its also correlates with what I know about some interguation and bodylanguage tactis I heard of, when people watch out for storytelling, with only externals, and not so much values or personal traits and feelings of a why, in criminal cases. 🙂 I am looking forward every time I see you got a new video! I can listen to you for hours! Thanks! 🙂👍🏻⭐️

[@robertjr555]

That thumb nail is brilliant 😀👏👏

[@jeremiahfix5529]

No ego (functionally). Great question for one who becomes aware of this is why was it necessary to suppress this aspect of my persona.

[@theosilva7188]

Hi all. This is really deep analysis you explanation is relevant about the state of mind. Self definition. Brilliant.

[@marceloviana4876]

Thank you for this video. I like the part about how trying to fabricate or strengthen your sense of self through relation to others creates a myriad of personality disorders and awful behavior like machiavellianism.

[@davidrife1999]

And yet each of the big meanies - psychopath, BPD, narcissists are described as being self efficacious, impervious to treatment or psychological intervention, fixed in their self concept, desensitized to pain and suffering , to the point of becoming unaffected by the realities of those with whom they interact. This is manifested by behaviors described as : lack of empathy, exploitation, abuse, objectification of human beings etc etc. Now the research shows a ‘ weak or no sense of self, reality diffusion, permeable and weak boundaries , dependent on external feedback for stability ‘ etc etc .. Ackim’s razor aside : does this not imply avenues for intervention as well as an acknowledgment of an immediate need to reconceptualize and classify these constructs

[@debraparker6404]

This is so interesting!

[@curtmaloney7859]

Sam I appreciate your more scientific background on this verse the rectal analysis of most in psychology today. Do brain scans showing activity and or lack of it and neuropathway development to back this latest more scientific understanding of the personality disordered? Thanks for leading the way here.

[@itarah1]

It's the "forgive their family name for they no not what they do" for me!🤣🤣🤣💀

[@claudiarebecca4688]

I have worked with leaders in their field - legal & retail in the US - ALL with the giant hiccup in private. Explains a lot.

[@_N0_0ne]

Thank you

[@074FaTiiH]

Still lingering about? What's wrong? A hunter, unnerved by a few beasts? Heh heh... No matter." "Without fear in our hearts, we're little different from the beasts themselves."

[@caritokirch]

Brilliant as always, Sam! In another video you posted about the doormat covert narcissist, you mentioned that covert narcissists turns into primary psycopaths. However, primary psycopaths as you explain in this video, have a high sense of self (in contrast to covert narcissists who have a weak sense of self). So the concludion that the covert narcissist turns primary pasycopaths has changed, right? Thank you!

[@theforceiswithme8804]

Isn't the removal or denigration of all the traditional markers of identity: gender characteristics as femininity, masculinity, roles in dating and as family members, and other traits once considered praise-worthy (intelligence, honesty, integrity etc.) make the establishment of identity as one interacts with others more difficult? This would seem to encourage the formation of a more amorphous and ephemeral self concept, thus more psychopathy within the population.

[@ChristinaFromYoutube]

I agree.

[@elisamasilvaalmeida8798]

A psicopatia não tem cura, e a ciência, medicina explica que o cérebro do psicopata é diferente de uma pessoa normal, psicopatas sempre existiram e vão continuar existindo, a existência deles no mundo só tem servido mais nesse mundo pra destruir vidas, psicopatas usam pessoas, destroem vidas, mas os mesmos são assassinados por psicopatas assassinos iguais a eles, já que esses seres humanos se reproduzem colocando filhos no mundo, sendo que muitas crianças desenvolvem psicopatia também devido ao ambiente ao qual elas imersos de uma familia psicopata. Em outras palavras uma criança pode desenvolver psicopatia mesmo não nascendo com um cérebro anormal de um psicopata, mas porque ela tem como exemplo psicopatas na familia.

[@voodoochile4147]

Absolutely

[@paper-chasepublications9433]

Very interesting theory. It makes sense. Do you mean only one personality disorder in a cluster?

[@TheMattjudo26]

What do you think is the best way to increase sense of self?

[@davidbowen6284]

Interesting. Its as though the covert wants to infect the conciousness of their target with a form of state based psychosis. It almost makes their target more manipulatable to favourable outcomes when they've lost or abandoned their own clarity of consciousness. It also seems to explain the self destructive actions of the covert, as they're seemingly always acting from a state based consciousness. I find it ironic that coverts have a good understanding of human behaviour but cannot replicate it and live by these social norms in the understanding social norms tend to have a better long term betterment and achievements attached to them. I guess this further illustrates their state based ideology.

[@CeceliaMeadeFrance]

So, a feeling like "he made me feel happy", or similar, is this 'state' or 'trait'... Because a lot of my actions are based on what I feel like... Intuition also. But I'd assume this comes from my inner self & my traits (what's good/bad/healthy etc) but it's an emotion thus a state not a trait! I'm confused!

[@horoloj]

And what about covert borderline? Is he actually a primary psychopath (like a grandiose narcissist), or he is a combo of cluster B ? Does he have anything in common with machiavellianism and dark empathy, more than others?

[@lauragm239]

That’s so fucking deep…. ❤️‍🔥

[@LadyFlorinaC]

Do narcissists feel empathy towards animals?

[@samvaknin]

No. Search the channel for “pet”.

[@paullothyan8602]

How does switching correlate with the data collected ,if an overt or covert switch wouldn't this invalidate everything IE data collecting.

[@samvaknin]

Search for my videos where I discuss partial dissociation (example: the IPAM video).

[@jasons4619]

Could the popularity strongly self identified Vegan identity be a way for peole to "form" a self identity around a lifestyle choice? or any other attempt to form and identity around a lifestyle, tribe, fashion, etc.

[@mokie2999]

If I am understanding correctly, Dr Vaknin, does this mean that the covert narcissist IS capable of feelings such as empathy and remorse?

[@samvaknin]

No. Only the Borderline is.

[@nikolt2000]

@@samvaknin i am a covert nаrc and i feel them

[@michagryglas2368]

@@samvaknin i agree. Greetings from Poland E.U. Thanks for your work Prof.Vaknin.

[@dr.sakeenajahan4952]

@@nikolt2000 u maybe having BPD coexist with NPD

[@nikolt2000]

@@dr.sakeenajahan4952 i thought so too. i deslay many bpd signs. my therapist doesnt even think im a narcissist but i think i was just masking in front of her. I thought i had bpd too but now i feel more and more like a psychopath...the issues never stop they just keep going...oh well

[@lykitagawa]

Do secondary psychopaths equal empaths?

[@samvaknin]

"Empaths" are mostly covert narcissists or merely grandiose.

[@ChristinaFromYoutube]

@@samvaknin im so glad you said this. I physically recoil when someone tells me they are an "empath" In my experience it means "i decided how you feel in my mind and immediately believed it."

[@lysagutierrez116]

Professor Vaknin, Are the differences kind of like a blend/overlap of human and animal instincts? Human instincts keep us from hurting others where animal instincts are only about survival.