George RR Martin FAILS to Deliver Winds of Winter | ASOIAF Fans Sold Out for HBO Max and Hollywood

[@williamjameslehy1341]

As someone said elsewhere, it's like if JK Rowling took five years to write Order of the Phoenix and then gave up writing the series altogether, then got mad that no one seemed to care about the Fantastic Beasts films.

[@kenkerrison8962]

I've got issues with JK Rowling, but at least she fucking finished her story. Half-Blood Prince (If I remember correctly) came out in 2005. Imagine if it got to like 2015 and she was saying "Deathly Hallows is still coming out at some point in the next decade, I've just got this prequel series with Disney Plus to finish first, as well as the screenplays for all Five fantastic beasts and where to find them movies. No she got it done, and at least Harry Potter is a complete story (the Atrocity that was Cursed Child simply never happened)

[@diogovieira5563]

@@kenkerrison8962 I think no writer did what mister Martin did with his own work. Stupid behiond belief.

[@bobross1829]

Yep, no matter what anyone says about Rowling, at least she finished her books. At the time, no one thought anything of it, but now seeing that she is like the only person to write such an epic and finish it (with an ending most everyone liked) she will always have that in her credit column.

[@ralcogaming7674]

@@bobross1829 as many issues as I take with her myself ill be honest. As a 12 year old kid finishing deathly hallows after reading all the books man that ending made me tear up. Just after everything the characters suffered and went through it meant something. They earned a happy ending every one of then even that little shit Draco earned a happy ending. And by God she delivered.

[@turtleanton6539]

Yes

[@Slosher52]

I started read A Song of Ice and Fire in high school 20 years ago. I now accept that we will never see an end to the story. I think he'll get Winds done eventually, but not A Dream of Spring.

[@RanMouri82]

Guess that will remain just a dream.

[@69sparker]

Not a problem if you never started them. But he can fuck right off for fucking the fans over who did read them.

[@mustermusli2445]

He said a year ago that he hadn’t wrote a single letter of it yet.

[@davetheimpaler204]

I almost started this series about 10 years ago but thought "I'll wait until all the books are out and read them all". Welp.

[@davetheimpaler204]

There's a possibility he could hand over his outline to another writer, of course. I wonder if the fans would be okay with that.

[@BillPeschel]

It's not just financial. This is his legacy. People aren't going to remember "Wild Cards." They'll look at his incomplete Game of Thrones series and say, "nah." He'll be forgotten.

[@ZombieSexmachine]

Good riddance, let the shit HBO ending be his legacy

[@AeneasGemini]

He won't be forgotten, he'll be remembered as a cautionary tale

[@Carandini]

@sfairraid 13 They'll remember him, but ain't nobody going to bother picking up A Song of Fire and Ice.

[@johnw8578]

I remember Wild Cards. I also have been waiting for a show about the series, but maybe not until Hollywood is fixed.

[@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623]

@@Carandini I disagree. Just look at what Frank Herbert's son did with the Dune series. And Timothy Zahn's Heir to the Empire series was for a while (and for many still is) the unofficial Sequel Trilogy to Star Wars. If there is a demand for a book that finishes a series someone may come along and write one. And if it actually gets published its not even fan fiction.

[@clinically_inane]

I can still remember how anxious and confused everyone was when Rowling didn't produce Order of the Phoenix in 2001. She had, with machine-like efficiency, produced a book a year from 1997 to 2000, so when the fifth book didn't arrive in 2001, people were baffled and when it still hadn't arrived by 2002, people were starting to get really impatient. By the time it was finally published in 2003, there were already rumours that she'd lost her mojo, hated the series, wasn't going to finish it etc. It all seems very quaint in retrospect.

[@JohnSmith-wh2ob]

Just think she finished by I think 2008-2009 but George is now on 10 years and counting just to get to the 6th book 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@slipstreamxr3763]

Plus, people forget that J.K. Rowling at that time was a single mother to two children. So, she was cranking out the Harry Potter series while raising a family and recovering from severe depression at the same time. Stephen King wrote Carrie while living in a trailer home with his family and barley making ends meet supporting them working as a column writer for a local newspaper at the time. Yet both J.K. and Stephen managed to produce the books we all love despite these setbacks. G.R.R. Martin and his wife have four cats and no children, so it's not like Fat George even has the excuse of raising a family to fall back on.

[@reallue]

Holy Crap! This man is basically saying he plans on leaving the HBO ending as the _only_ ending to ASOIAF. If THAT is gonna be the official ending, then I'm about done w/ his entire IP.

[@candeezymarie9827]

That's what I got out of it as well. He basically just made s8 canon.

[@beesod6412]

@@candeezymarie9827 I could have wrote a better s8, and i'm no writer.

[@krazzykracker2564]

@@candeezymarie9827 why do you think he doesn't want to finish? Its because the show ending is the book ending he planned and everyone hates it. Could you write a book you know everyone will hate?

[@ahdhwjdue8362]

@@krazzykracker2564 I'd use it as an opportunity to improve the ending Filling in holes and the like and perfecting the execution by using the feedback.

[@SchlaftaterNrzZz]

OK, Then youre done With it Who cares, goodbye

[@adityasuryavanshi3687]

It's clear that he has dug himself a plothole and has fallen deep in it. Instead of delivering an unsatisfying ending and tarnishing his reputation even more, he'd rather not finish the series, milk it for all it's worth and die claiming that the ending was going to be worth reading the bricks that his books are.

[@BrainDamageComedy]

🤣

[@michaelwills1926]

💯

[@anthonyfava9367]

Not sure if it's a plot hole or he's trying to force an ending that isn't natural to the story. Bran the Broken doesn't have a natural path based on the first 5 books when other characters have clear claims/paths to the throne. Also he created too many plots by adding too many unnecessary characters so it's like getting lost in a maze.

[@wesgleeson]

@@anthonyfava9367 as if Bran ends up king in GRRM's plan though

[@andrewyp6724]

🤣 That's what I felt when I read the fifth book. Impressive world building to be sure, but felt like Martin was expanding way too big, _world scale,_ and one can't really tell all that is happening in the world. Felt like he will have a really hard time wrapping up all the characters' stories.

[@soundmindinc]

GRRM: I'm writing a book. Do not rush me! Sanderson: I'm so sorry, I accidentally wrote 5 extra books while I was working on 3 other books.

[@DrahminsGooch]

Sanderson blows.

[@blumiu2426]

@@DrahminsGooch I don't think he's the best thing ever either, but he is far more dedicated to the craft than Martin. A show got him recognition, not the books.

[@bigpapazo]

@@DrahminsGooch his recorded breaking Kickstarter would beg to differ

[@yurioorlov177]

@@bigpapazo Yes Sandersons Record breaking Kickstarter for a Entire Serires he wrote while working on his baby the Stormlight Archive. And those theres 4 Main sequence novels so far and all have come in the same amount of time as Winds of Winter. SO Ya Martin needs to hand it off hes never gonna hget it done.

[@RespectTheSourceMaterial]

@@blumiu2426 the books had sold 12M before the show that's a crazy amount for a fantasy series without a show what more did you want?

[@HowManyTimes234]

You will NEVER see him finish this book series. His work ethic makes a glacier look like a Formula 1

[@jeremysumrak1842]

And George had the audacity to critique Tolkien, when Tolkien not only produced an epic tale in 3 books…but they live on far into the future past the author’s death. Poor George can’t get it done in far more tomes, can’t keep the narrative coherent, and ultimately will be forgotten in short order.

[@thedungeondelver]

GRRM isn't fit to have JRRTs name in his mouth. I wouldn't even wipe my dog's ass with pages of a Martin book, much less bother to read it.

[@ThrashTillDeth85]

Because JRR Tolkien and his son is everything he will never be

[@chuckhaynes9166]

A couple of other facts: Tolkein had already dealt with the "Merry England" criticism long ago in his backstory and even mentions the criticism by name...but George never heard of it, because George never even read Tolkein. Also: Tolkein served in one of the bloodiest and senseless wars there has ever been, serving in the trenches in WWI. He made and lost many friends there, and his experience there led him to understand that war and violence are terrible things. George dodged the draft. He regularly uses violence and war for shock value and kicks.

[@monkfishy6348]

George has nothing but respect for Tolkiens work.

[@Pay2pray]

@@monkfishy6348 of course he does, imagine what would happen if the lazy ass decided to critique JRRT more

[@NickNapoli]

George sold out once he got a taste of that sweet HBO money. Also GRRM isn’t worthy of lighting Tolkien’s pipe.

[@noone8418]

👍

[@RexFuturi]

Martin is actually just a bad writer. Then again, people sing praises for Brandon Sanderson too, and I've seen 14 year old girls write better fanfiction than he did for Wheel of Time.

[@exhaustguy]

@@RexFuturi I wouldn't say bad just mediocre. He did strike lightning with the first three books though.

[@johnbunceiii2668]

He's been comparing himself to Tolkein from the start. He's made an interesting enough world, but still lacks the depth. Which I think is why he's doing what he's doing now... Plus, he probably figures the GoT show does enough to show the main story. Which, also, means (given the backlash) he may be trying to rewrite the story lol.

[@RexFuturi]

@@exhaustguy maybe I'm just a snob. Then again, I read a whole lot of Shannara books, so I can't be that snobbish in my standards. As I've said over and over, A Song of Ice and Fire was very contrived and forced--formulaic. I saw it as a gimmick. He wanted to do an adult LotR.

[@daniell1483]

This blog post actually happened several days ago, but it bears repeating. It is disheartening to know that Winds of Winter seem to be Martin's lowest priority. Something worth noting, he talks about all his ASOIAF projects, but he didn't even mention the stuff completely unrelated to Westeros. For example, he was the writer for Elden Ring's story. So the list of projects he is involved in isn't just the many, many things he names in the post, but several completely unrelated projects as well. As a huge fan, this honestly feels like a slap in the face by Martin. Like he is saying our investment in the world he built was foolish and we shouldn't have ever read his books, as they genuinely may never get a proper finish with Dream of Spring.

[@logankent5865]

I hate to say it this way but I feel like martin made his money off the show and now he sees no reason to keep the books going especially if he and most likely did made hands over fists more money over the show than the books and see no reason to continue them and never will.

[@FFFan3445]

He contributed very little to Elden Ring, that was a marketing thing. He probably met with the real writers like Miyazaki and they were like "yeah, fingermaidens, cool" and it ended there. He likely contributed one or two ideas, all the rest of it felt 100% FromSoft.

[@glennross85]

ASOIAF was on track to be the greatest fantasy series since LOTR in my opinion, nows its just a wet fart. I regret ever reading this series.

[@Jaqen_Hghar]

Even if WoW comes out some day, Dream of Spring will only remain in our dreams.

[@glennross85]

@@Jaqen_Hghar I for one am not purchasing wow unless the series are finished. Would be lovely to see it tank upon release. Yes I am angry and I dont care how petty it is.

[@hewhoshallnotbenamed5168]

This situation with George R R Martin reminds me a lot of Kentaro Miura, creator of the manga Berserk, and his procrastination when it came to finishing his seminal work. The big difference between Miura and Martin however is that he never acted like an entitled prick towards his fans. Martin should take notes.

[@trinhanvu6568]

another BIG different is Miura is very publicly sick, like cripplingly sick

[@casabuenagabrielg.176]

I can see that too with manga author Ken Ishikawa, his untimely passing was the reason he wasn't able to finish his work worth a lot of years

[@Strider73]

@@trinhanvu6568 was. he died a couple months ago

[@Hikaeme-od3zq]

I hope they give Berserk to some talented writer and continue the series. Of course with great respect, but still, I can't believe we'll never get to see how the story ends because he died.

[@meurer13daniel]

@@Hikaeme-od3zq I honestly think it's better off this way. Berserk doesn't need a conclusion even tho we would want one. It's also left off as "finished" in the last chapter released by his assistence

[@Fardawg]

The real kick in the nards is when you remember that even if he finishes Winds, he still has to write "at least" A Dream of Spring to finish the series...

[@vedmaburuxova68]

Yeah, I could easily see 3 or 4 more books (including WoW) if it were to be done properly. Story never will be finished, sad.

[@Chris-ey8zf]

Just hire Sanderson to finish it. GRRM is a hack.

[@obadiahplainman8897]

He will pass away before he ever finishes another book. He’s in his 70’s, and he’s obese.

[@landrysaathoff2418]

@@Chris-ey8zf Sanderson has a lengthy written response on why he wouldn't do it (sorry don't have the link). My vote would be Joe Abercrombie instead.

[@TheChzoronzon]

@@landrysaathoff2418 Abercrombie is amazing, but he couldn't do Asoiaf without turning it into Warhammer meets Monty Phyton.

[@theelder4797]

Plot twist: George found all these stories in an attic of an estate sale decades ago, but it was unfinished, so he just put his name on the manuscripts and sold them as his own, which is why he can't finish the books.

[@nilskarlsson8911]

That would actually make sense. I've been thinking the same.

[@mrrodriguezHLP]

I would've 100% done the same dishonest thing. But, sold the rights and let others finish the story. Make my stacks coming in and out...

[@calumhawkes5679]

this is 100% true. I was that attic

[@beruduassasin]

I have been speculating the same

[@Scoob505]

@@calumhawkes5679 George was inside you?...

[@paularcher9579]

I knew that the moment GoT became mainstream that the books were going to get affected in a negative way.

[@tabull8180]

While that is true, it is unlikley that GRRM would have finished the books even without all the hype and all the money. There had already been so many years with not so much progress even before the show started. Maybe he would have more interest to actually finish the books in some manner, but not all stories completed. Now he seems like he does not care enough anymore.

[@SergioLeonardoCornejo]

Happens to everything touched by Hollywood, mainstream Western TV, or anything touched by wokeness. Martin is woke, so he was triple doomed.

[@nothingEvil101]

This one is not on mainstream, it’s 100 % on George

[@Bacontruffle]

I said it the first time I heard a GoT fan (of the books, before the HBO show) proudly say that "this is the LotR of the modern day, that'll make LotR look like the cliche, outdated trilogy it is" and I'll say it again: Martin might be a competent writer in his own right, but by pretending to be better than Tolkien and write a "better" LotR, he's set himself up for failure. Hubris comes before the fall as they say, and I think he's come to realize it himself, and that's why he doesn't want to finish the book. Because when you put your work against one of the greatest writers of all time in the genre, one might argue possibly the greatest, you better deliver. And the one thing that's harder than building up hype and an engaging storyline, is actually making it all come together in a satisfying ending, the way Tolkien masterfully managed to do so. If he finishes the books, that's when people will definitively judge his works against the masterwork he's pitched it up against, and I think herein lies his reluctance: the threat of failure in that regard. To be honest, it's not exactly fair either, Tolkien was an absolute literary perfectionist and language nerd, the man was a one-of-a-kind genius at his field, and on top of that somehow managed to translate his vast arsenal of knowledge and literary skill into an engaging set of books that isn't just engaging for fellow literary enthusiasts, but for the average reader as well. The sheer amount of work that went into that is frankly ridiculous, and something that I feel like is partially facilitated by the time he lived in. I feel like it's hard for anyone to put just that amount of focus and sheer number of hours of work into a literary series like that. I would love nothing more than to be proven wrong, but I don't think there's ever going to be a work to equal LotR in the genre. Especially for the fans of GoT, I'd be happy to swallow my words in the future, but I'm quite certain George R.R. Martin has simply set himself up for failure with his overly ambitious goals of trying to dethrone Tolkien.

[@ahoramazda6864]

Totally disagree! R.R. Martin was fresh air for the stagnant, stinking swamp called "modern fantasy". He was able to bring relative realism and subversion to the plot and dialogue, although the second and third were largely punctuated by the series, not the book. But... R.R. Martin was never a competitor for Tolkien. If Tolkien was, in fact, a discoverer, Martin largely parasitizes on history and historical images. Therefore, his characters, fractions and lore are very similar to real-life counterparts. The first thing that comes to mind is the Mamluks and Unsullied. Everything that Martin came up with himself or has no direct analogues in history or other books is done pucking horrible. For example, the patron God of Essos, Trios. Some hooker tells Arya and us, the readers, about him. And this story is inconsistent and uninformative. Why was it necessary? Throw more fodder for theorists? Many moments in the book are made at the level of a fanfiction writer. And not just a fanfiction writer, but a 13 y o girl obsessed with yaoi. Only such a girl and Martin can describe the sexual interests of a slave master who will not linger in the plot and quickly die. If not for the hype, Martin would have been severely criticized, because he makes a lot of inmature and amature mistakes and moves.

[@Bacontruffle]

@@ahoramazda6864 I do very much agree that R.R. Martin very much brought a breath of fresh air to a genre that had become quite stagnant continuously recycling the same concepts that had been repeated to the point of becoming seriously stale. I seriously hope for his fans that he gives the reigns to someone else that he trusts to finish his works honestly. I'm rather afraid though, that while his ideas were fresh for the genre, I'm starting to see his ideas of a dark fantasy genre being repeated again and again and getting quite stale, in it's own right. Also, while his books went in against the grain, he was definitely not the first to go for a gritty, dark fantasy world, authors like Sapkowski (The Witcher) already started this before him, and in a more original setting. I think the thing that Martin really brought to the table was the grimy, corrupt world of politics front and center in a fantasy setting, which is actually rather interesting, but gets longwinded and difficult to give a satisfying ending to. Which is apparent in his works

[@ralcogaming7674]

@@ahoramazda6864 reading the books was great. Kinda wish I hadn't because I'd like to know how it ends. Martin's writing style is interesting to say the least, much of the eastern stuff lacks much depth, danys chapters are like nails on a chalkboard for me I found myself getting annoying thinking "I get it! She doesn't like slavery" because she's not a character. Even stannis has more going on and we never hear his thoughts well we do but that's because he's our one true king and he tells it like it is. What troubled me the most was after the disaster that was season 8 of game of thrones we got an article talking about how bran becoming king came from GRRM himself to which I responded "fucking how?" Bran not only lacks any rightful claim Jon snow and stannis baratheon exist! If thsts really who becomes king in the books I can only imagine how bad they end.

[@ahoramazda6864]

@@Bacontruffle, As for dark fantasy, it seems to me that this genre has not yet fully formed. It seems that most of the works contain only a part of dark fantasy, and always a little less than half. I mean in books, series, movies. There are examples of completely dark fantasy in games. Yes, and in the manga and anime, perhaps, for sure. I don't know for sure because I don't know many representatives of the genre. But if we talk about Martin and Sapkowski - they are not as gloomy as it may seem from AGOT HBO Series and Witcher games. Both books have a lot of humor or historical references. Moreover, partly historical accuracy makes the world darker than the fantasy component. Magic is simply rare and the gods are indifferent and indifferent towards mortals ... Or maybe the gods do not exist. But apart from these elements, there are not many dark things. Yes, sometimes the characters, including the main ones, do something terrible, but this is largely for shock value and is quickly forgotten. But by and large - the world is not so gloomy. For example, the Targaryens ruled long and gloriously, and no one really resisted them. Only when the dynasty was in the weakest state, they rebelled against it. But this is quite logical. And this can be said about many moments - they are not gloomy, but logical. However, a lot of things and phenomena in the books exist contrary to the real logic and the logic of dark fantasy, so that the content of the book would not be monotonous and not lower the stakes. And this is not bad, but almost always done on the example of two opposites. "See how many evil and greedy people are in the west? And in the east we have the naive Daenerys." Or in Sapkowski's case, "Look how messed up the kingdoms are. But look at the Nilfgaardian Empire! They're no better!" And that kind of thing is annoying sometimes. Yes, the author is trying to maintain neutrality and wants the reader to draw his own conclusions. But there is still too little information about many characters and factions. And, most likely, these elements will not be developed in the future.

[@Bacontruffle]

@@ahoramazda6864 Huh, I hadn't thought of it in this way yet... Actually, I think the first truly Dark Fantasy I know about is Berserk. (manga, and one that's been running for a loooong time and is a huge influence on a lot of media, a well-known one being the Dark Souls games, which I think is a good example of Dark Fantasy in games) Berserk starts off more "realistic" and first teases an absolute hellscape of a world, and then shows how this world came to be in the "Golden age" arc, which seems more like a realistic medieval world, but with dark fantasy elements slowly revealing itself to be present in the background until the main event reveals itself, and the main story continues into the full-on Dark Fantasy that the rest of the story continues as. (I think since this story started a good while before those like The Witcher and GoT, this was a way for Miura to ease the readers into the genre) It absolutely never pulls any punches though, to the point of showing subjects even The Witcher and GoT don't dare to go. There is some humor in order to balance things out somewhat, and there are more tender moments, but these are given strength exactly from just how hopeless and dark the world is, and the dichotomy you mention isn't really there either. I should also mention that the manga has a very interesting way of dealing with the progression of the main protagonist, giving a very real cost and risk to any growth later on to keep things grounded and on edge, but I won't spoil this. Sadly the author recently passed away before finishing his work, but he has left notes and a team is trying to continue his legacy, even if it's unclear whether they'll be able to, they at least have released some material already, which so far has been quite good. As far as I know, the single most influential work in the genre.

[@housevinyl4640]

I was literally just thinking yesterday that I didn’t understand why GRRM didn’t just partner up with another author to finish the 2 remaining books. You nailed my thoughts exactly here.

[@Tauramehtar]

He should just let Brandon Sanderson finish them. That guy is a machine.

[@meme-bu8qu]

@@Tauramehtar Too much pride and ego will prevent him from letting Bradon Sanderson touching it. It would show him up and make him look bad if he can't finish it himself at this point.

[@eyalsi1070]

@@Tauramehtar Oh god no. I love brandon but he is not my choice for dark fantasy.

[@leisureloaflightfoot1655]

What about Joe Abercrombie, his First Law trilogy was really good grim dark stuff.

[@eyalsi1070]

@@leisureloaflightfoot1655 I was thinking about him as well, although I am not sure if he can handle the dense overarching plot of ASOIAF. Joe's strength is his characters, not his story structure.

[@nazeersadek6705]

I said this numerous times but I’ll say it again anyways: I’m not interested in any of those side projects if he doesn’t finish the winds of winter at the very least. They are great for world building but I want the main story to be complete or at the very least have another book in it that way another author can finish a dream of spring if George has a plan for it

[@rauli386]

You have to wait for a fire and blod and two dunk and eggs, and then maybe George will be motivated to work on winds then, but who knows after three other books he may still don't feel like writing winds

[@51R_samsoknight]

Exactly! Get the main story done, then concentrate on the side stories. You’d think that’s what he’d have done, but nope, he’s gotta be a douchebag and dance around the fact that he can’t finish it. He just needs to outline WoW and DoS and hand it off to another author more honored and delighted to finish off the series.

[@nazeersadek6705]

@@rauli386 my problem with that is George isn’t getting any younger he’s 73 and doesn’t have the best health condition out there I hope he lives a long and happy life and that he’ll be able to finish all the books he wants to write but I highly doubt that will happen

[@nazeersadek6705]

@@51R_samsoknight I never understand why he’s having trouble finishing the main books like if he wants the story to have the same ending like the show then that will be fine by most fans since the biggest problem of seasons 7 and 8 are the poor writing

[@nazeersadek6705]

@@adriaan4808 very good point and if that’s the reason then I wouldn’t mind having an extra book added but I really want him to do something with this book series at this rate even the wind of winter has a very thin chance of releasing

[@jacobambos3885]

He was never going to finish it. I said 10 years ago, the ultimate "thwarting of expectations" would be to just leave it undone.

[@jamesespinosa690]

I'm hoping he's going above and beyond, written more than we've expected, and is waiting to die before passing them onto us. I kind of get the feeling, he is a serious writer who wants to put his life and soul into the series. Quite literally perhaps.

[@robrick9361]

2015 : GRRM is the greatest writer and ASOIAF will go down as the greatest fantasy series of all time ONCE IT'S FINISHED. 2075 : Who the hell is GRRM? Oh that meme author who couldn't finish his bloated story.

[@Junksaint]

The world went to s*** after 2015

[@WasatchWind]

Mark my words, a decade hence the great fantasy author of the 21st century will be known to be Brandon Sanderson. His characters, worlds, and stories have an unparalleled level of quality, all written at an insane pace. The second one of his works is adapted, it'll be nuts.

[@gangahuweed3012]

@@WasatchWind unbased opinion

[@ceinwenchandler4716]

@@WasatchWind Oh, yeah. Someone needs to turn Mistborn into a movie. Or Stormlight into a realistically animated show. (I don't think you could do a live-action Stormlight without so much CGI it might as well be animated. Its world is too alien.) Heck, someone should turn all of Mistborn into a giant movie trilogy like Lord of the Rings. Sanderson's awesome and I would love to see basically anything he wrote done in a visual medium.

[@WasatchWind]

@@ceinwenchandler4716 Mistborn is likely to be first, and as a live action film trilogy. He says he always imagined it like a heist movie, and that's what he wants it to look like. He's written a screenplay for it, and is constantly hinting at _something_ movie related going on, but never quite saying too much.

[@ariamaddison257]

I would actually respect George if he said he was never going to finish TWOW in the first place. I had actually forgot about ASOIF and the GoT show. That’s heartbreaking considering how much the series meant to me and others.

[@Amatarias]

If you want something to fill that void go look up a little series that inspired it called Elric of Melniboné and thank me later

[@sargonixofur1234]

@@Amatarias Elric is great. Or try the Druon ‘Accursed Kings’ stories and see how much chunky boy ‘borrowed’.

[@SchlaftaterNrzZz]

Dont Care about the First two replies You dont Need to watch endless amounts of series you wont remember Buy a boat a Van or so Take a Loved one and have an adventure

[@Chris-ji4iu]

@@SchlaftaterNrzZz hahaha - a bit blunt, but I was thinking similar thoughts. I honestly clicked on this by mistake and I only was able to tolerate about 7 minutes and I like Nerdrotic. At this point I don't really care if he'll finish or not. If he does, I'll read it. But I'm more focused on taking trips, visiting friends & family, etc. I still read a lot, I'd rather have the experiences.

[@SchlaftaterNrzZz]

@@Chris-ji4iu For real at this Stage you might meet him while traveling "Ey aint you grrrm?" "Yes." "Nice books." "Thanks But please Just let me chill in the sun For now."

[@PudgeDredd]

I'm surprised he didn't blame Russia for the delay.

[@faust13301]

Lol

[@Bungowumperpuss]

What are you implying HMM?! Gas and cost of living was at historic lows before the evil Russian orange man sympathizers invaded! I only paid 25 cents a gallon before that. Why would they lie? Sounds like conspiracy to me!

[@bladeofthealphafangs]

He probably thought about it lol

[@boobrancher9941]

I got the feeling years ago that he had no idea how to end the story, the way the series ended confirmed it for me. I think he is terrified of ending it, he seems to understand that he can't do endings well. He should confront his fear, head on, attack the problem and go and study about how to make a satisfying ending. Then share his findings with Dumb and Dumber.

[@Astropeleki]

I think he had an idea of how to end, mostly with Daenerys going nuts and Jon Snow being the one who has to stop her (he did mention the ending being bittersweet and killing your lover is classic bittersweetness). But I do think he has no clue on how to get there; not a complain, outlining works only for certain authors. But fuck man, he really seems demotivated about finishing it.

[@hans471]

I wanted to write something similar. - Probably he has difficulties to unravel all the story lines in a satsifactory manner. Now the terrible fate of the GOT series must be a scary propect for him about giving an ending to his series which doesn't satisfy the fans...

[@phloog]

Honestly my theory is that his ending had elements similar to S8 and he had an Oh Shit moment at the backlash to the HBO thing, or perhaps not similar but the negative reactions to S8 of GoT have made him worried that his ending will suck, so he's frozen.

[@Doppier]

In his own words, his own ending is pretty close to the ending we got. Of course D&D rushed and botched it. But the conclusions overall are the same. Why so many GGRM apologists keep denying this I don't know.

[@TheHeroRobertELee]

End it without an ending. Story book endings suck any way. End it with every single person dying or some shit lol

[@LastFractionZero]

Let's just face it. The tv show ruined George R.R. Martin just as badly as it ruined itself. He used to be a writer and now he's just a celebrity that other people want to attach to their projects to give them legitimacy.

[@piotrkarp9562]

Nah, tv did it's job, don't shift blame here. Tv even wanted to get GoT aditional 1 or 2 seasons. Writers fucked up, writers if TV series and writer of books.

[@cttommy73]

I think this is the first time I've ever seen a professional author fail so badly to finish their own story. Twilight, Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Star Wars, hell, even long running manga series that spans decades, all are continuously being written or have been completed in a lot less time then how long George RR Martin has been taking to write just 1 book.

[@zacharyradford5552]

Hell Star Wars is steadily adding new shit. Martin last book came out when the show started, the show was hotter than hell and he made lots of money from it like the quote “it’s hard to get up in the morning when your sleeping in silk sheets”. Martin just doesn’t have the drive or worse the care. To think he had the nerve to talk about Tolkien the grand master of modern fantasy.

[@Kawasatan]

apparently u havent read the expanse. or seen star wars.

[@mkv2718]

Seriously, at least Frank Herbert and Kentaro Miura had the courtesy to die if they weren’t going to finish their work… Too soon? Sorry went a bit dark there

[@dudemcfurgusson7179]

He hasn't been writing just one book though. He's been doing a bunch of side products as well. Maybe he should have been writing just one book. But he hasn't.

[@BOBBOBBOBBOBBOBBOB69]

You haven't heard of Patrick Rofflus then.

[@DanielPlainsight]

G. R. R. Martin gave D&D a rough outlining of how the story would end. I suspect that includes Brandon becoming king & Deanerys going mad. The fans response to this being overall negative, he panicked and now doesn't know how to finish/fix the stories conclusion. Just a theory.

[@MSinistrari]

I've heard that theory mentioned around before and it fits. I also read an interview somewhere where Martin admitted when the series outpaced the books, he lost interest in doing the books and that makes sense considering he's done just about everything else other than come out with the next GoT book.

[@irena4545]

The problem isn't that these things happened, but HOW they happened. Dumb and Dumber rushed the show and didn't lay the groundwork necessary for the outcome.

[@MrTelru]

@@irena4545 i agree it would be better from martin but given just how woke the book industry is now he would be cancelled in a heartbeat for turning a feminist icon mad , imo he knows he has to change the ending but he lost his passion to finish it

[@corruptangel6793]

He lost control of the characters and has no idea how to get the story back on track.

[@petejohnson7965]

Honestly I agree with Deanerys going mad. It was foreshadowed throughout the entire story and I think it would have been bad writing if she became queen. I wouldn't exactly call her a Mary Sue but at least in the HBO show we didn't really see her demonstrate the natural ability to be a leader, we just heard her advisors talk about how great she was all the time. Bran shouldn't have been king because he's just not a very compelling character. Honestly Jon Snow should have stayed dead and Samwell should have inherited the throne as the most senior surviving member of a great house (after killing off the others in the battle with the white walkers / other battles). It would have been the most fitting ending to the journey.

[@toanaboogegefrancis7221]

I remember Honest Trailers making a joke, about the fans hoping that he'll finish the series before eating himself to death, and it seems like that joke is becoming a reality.

[@hebanker3372]

There is also a hilarious scene in Z-nation where a zombie Martin is giving away ''A promise of spring'' books.That was years ago.Talking about foreshadowing.

[@1978garfield]

"By any BEWBS necessary" That was a good Honest Trailer.

[@Vanderyn]

GRRM wanted to be different from other fantasy authors. He wanted his work to be a grimly realistic deconstruction of fantasy tropes where real things happen to real people. And his work ended up exactly like most other fantasy authors: an unfinished mess with a lot of bitter fans.

[@MrBell-iq3sm]

Have you ever noticed how his characters are not in real danger? He claims they are, many people claim they are, but aside of Ned, which POV character died that had more than a few chapters? Everyone came back, and the likes of Arya or Tyrion can be in all kinds of dangerous situation and survive them. Not exactly realistic.

[@noone6896]

I would respect this more than usual cliche fantasy that just repeats themselves...

[@noone6896]

​@@MrBell-iq3smIn book or show?! If u mean in show and after 4 season, there is no point discussing it(it is ruined anyways by showrunners). Otherwise, it is not about putting characters to danger just to shock. Ned was honorable and good guy but he made mistakes (warned Cersei out of mercy) so his action had consequence. Just because he is good guy and main character it doesn't mean that rules of world doesn't apply to him. Afterwards Robb and Caitlin wanted revenge, and as a viewer we were expecting poetic justice (them killing Joffrey) but we didn't get it bcauz Robb decided to not keep his words and then seek help from Walder Frey again(which was stupid decision), actions has consequences. Oberyn Martell wanted justice(and he deserved it) but wasn't careful about it so he lost his head. Jon Snow was noble and did what is right(letting wildlings go behind the wall) but he should've been careful considering years of hate between wilding and watchers... And others... So idk how u saw only Ned's death.

[@didimockets]

Let's be honest: GRR Martin started this extremely complex story with hundreds and hundreds of characters and now has no idea how to tie all the loose ends in a satisfying way. It's much too complex for him and he has no idea what to do with it.

[@hans471]

even more it might just impossible to give a consistent ending to this story...

[@ahdhwjdue8362]

He could pull a Shakespeare and kill most of those characters in a tragic manner and tie up who's left into a neat ending.

[@jhoughjr1]

Smart people use outlines and stuff to help with that.

[@Archonsx]

no, he's just too lazy to write anything, let's be honest.

[@retributionpics]

After AFFC and ADWD he was farther from completing the story than when he started writing them. The story got away from him. He doesn't have the skill or work ethic to write his way out of it. I came to terms I was never getting ADOS years ago. But now I am realizing we are never getting Winds either.

[@CatholicDragoon]

Yes, we all know about the Silmarillion, the thing is Tolkien didn't intend for that to be printed. It was only published after his death by his son. Finish the main series first. Then work on the spin-offs.

[@Evilanious]

Tolkien certainly tried to get something like the Silmarillion printed, he just got shot down by publishers who preferred the little book he wrote for his kids. When that (the Hobbit) was a success, he wrote LOTR. Tolkien cared about his elven mythology and invented languages first. LOTR wasn't ever meant to be the main series. It was a compromise with the publishers and the general public.

[@ferrjuan]

But George has no children so when he does die there is no one to publish any of his unfinished works so once he dies that’s it is over.

[@-Melkor]

Tolkien totally wanted it to be printed or he wouldn’t have written it. I think he knew it wouldn’t be finished by him.

[@Swarm509]

I have yet to meet an author who writes things that they don't want published or read by others in some way, it is the entire point of having that drive to be an author. If Tolkien could of got Silmarillion works published, in part or whole, he would of. As another said he had to compromise with LotR to get something out as is.

[@braemtes23]

Tolkien gave the editors a sample of the Silmarillion and if the liked it he would have finished it. They wanted more about the hobbits, so he went on to write LOTR. This is a completely different situation because he didn't let fans down because they were not invested in the Silmarillion. It didn't exist for them.

[@averydavis1012]

Didn't GRRM's update come right after Brandon Sanderson announced that in the past two years, aside from all the books he was working on and consulting on the WOT tv show and working on a Mistborn script, he also wrote 4 secret books and a graphic novel and surprised his fans with them?

[@avsambart]

Yes it did 🤣

[@andrewfrank7222]

Let's get Brandon to finish it.. He is from Utah so it won't be so scandalous, but F it at this point.

[@michaelzappacosta9529]

Honestly, I don't care for Sanderson's books. He's a garden variety writer. Just because he's productive don't mean he's good.

[@CosmicRazberry]

@@michaelzappacosta9529 I mean the fact that he has been on the New York Times best selling list 15 times and counting would beg to differ? Many authors fail to get on this ONCE... You are entitled to your opinion but I still think it factually wrong. Most "garden variety writers" especially in the Fantasy genre could never get remotely as popular as Sanderson has become. Just because you don't like his writing doesn't make it "garden variety".

[@andrewfrank7222]

@@michaelzappacosta9529 Fair enough. However with the original author already dead, he managed the WoT in just a few years... Maybe just being around him would get Martin off his ass.

[@dennismoon6693]

If GRRM wants to work on side projects (completely independent of ASOIF), I can understand that, but I think it's safe to say that the majority of fans are more concerned with him completing ASOIF than a prequel series or related novellas. My suspicion is that the HBO series did fundamentally end the way he intended, however poor the execution was. Assuming that is the case, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that he's not highly motivated to complete the project because he's expecting fans to be just as upset with the ending of the books as they were with the show.

[@DoratTheKiller]

Yeah, makes sense

[@katykendrick8151]

If that the case, then I suspect hes trying to brainstorm how reconfigure the emding.

[@Fardawg]

It's important to point out, since so many people keep misrepresenting it, that The Silmarillion was not written to be backstory for LOTR (it happens to work that way because the LOTR references the earlier work as its ancient history). What became The Silmarillion was started during WW1 and is where Middle-earth came from. It was never a series of worldbuilding notes, as far too many think of it, but a series of connected tales from the POV of the elves, taking place over thousands of years and dealing with the fight against Sauron's master, Morgoth, who was the equivalent of Satan while Sauron was just an underling. The LOTR started as a simple sequel to the Hobbit (which had some loose connections but wasn't directly part of Middle-earth yet) but it became a part of the larger stories of Middle-earth as he wrote it. Tolkien wanted the Silmarillion to be published alongside LOTR since the two were closely connected but the publisher didn't want it at the time, at least not until after the LOTR was published. There were actually one or two finished versions of the Silmarillion from what I remember, but the stories changed over time, especially as he worked on LOTR and he had to account for that in revisions since it changed some of the characters that were in The Sil. or added new characters who should have been in those tales. By the end, he was too old and tired to completely finish editing the work to the point he thought it needed to be and it was finally edited together (using the most complete and connected versions of the various stories ) and published by his son Christopher after his father's death. It is NOT true, as some still think, that Christopher made up parts of the Silmarillion in order to finish it, and he published a very large 12 volume series of his father's drafts and notes to prove it. The problem was that there were so many versions of the tales (some versions, closer to what Tolkien ultimately wanted but that weren't complete or would require drastic rewrites of the other tales, were not included because they would have needed too much of Christopher's own tampering, which he wanted to leave out as much as possible) and Christopher had to compile the most complete and coherent version that would seem like a finished whole with as little bridging work from him as possible. It wasn't that the Silmarillion was unfinished, in the sense of abandoned part way through as GRRM seems to be doing, as much as it evolved so many times over the years (and not always as a whole, but in rewrites of the separate tales that made up the whole work) that it was difficult to connect everything without more drastic rewrites and Tolkien literally didn't have the time and energy to do all the work he wanted before his death. There was also no deadline with fans clamoring to have it finished (though many who did know it existed did want to read the tales), even though the publisher did show interest in publishing it, so it became something of a pet project that kept an older Tolkien busy and intellectually occupied in his later life.

[@ralcogaming7674]

Okay so 1st off, you Tolkien nerds are on a whole different level and 2ndly I am a better person for having read every word of this. I didn't actually know anything about the simarillion and only heard one reference to it ever as a joke in one of max0rs videos I think "imagine if to enjoy lord of the rings you had to read the simarillion" I wasn't ever a big Tolkien reader, loved the lord of the rings movies though.

[@desmonides]

Dagor Dagorath 🥳

[@heraclito3114]

Well, in the Silmarillion and/or The unfinished tales (I don't remember for the former) Christopher mentions alternative versions of some tales.

[@DreamingDarlin]

@@ralcogaming7674 The Silmarillion Is my favorite Tolkien book. It is admittedly a hard read because there are so many characters In it. I always suggest that you literally rip out the genealogy and refer to that as you read the book. I struggled until I actually did that and now I've read it several times and I'm starting to read it again. it's nothing like The Hobbit or the Lord of the Rings.

[@kelborhal2576]

I remember gaming with a guy in 2012 and he was a GOT fan. He told me then the prophetic words that George would never finish the books because he no longer has control of the story. Boy was he right.

[@dimitriwarchief301]

OOOOOFFFF

[@JackoBanon1]

Dance with Dragons was finished in 2011 and after the epilogue Martin wrote that he is confident to finish the next book (The Winds of Winter) within 1-2 years. Back then there literally was no way your friend could have predicted this since everybody was certain that Martin would never let the show run out of book material. It was his 'baby' after all.

[@MrPrincepop]

Wow. How many authors would love to have poor George's 'wearisome' problem of millions of fans? That created one of the all-time bestselling fiction series - has the same fans waiting with open wallets in their hands in anticipation - 10 years of patients. Only to shun those loyal readers because Hollywood bit his ass, made him rich which gave him an infection of hubris and ego.

[@JustExhumed]

Was a massive fan before the TV series and went to a book signing for Feast. George explained how he'd split the book in two, but a lot of Dance was written and should be ready "in a year". His words. It limped along 6 years later. I worried for Winter then, but not in my wildest nightmares did I think we'd still be waiting 10 years and beyond.

[@anvec6145]

you know, since he's compared himself with Tolkien before- wonder if he's paying attention- if they'll "openly interpret" a story as detailed and complete as LotR, wonder what they'll do with something that was actually unfinished? Find a successor and delegate, or find some focus and motivation. I mean that in a constructive way.

[@Ruffy112]

They'd do GoT Season 8

[@Diveyl]

At this point I wish him to be treated like Jordan with his Wheel of Time. What Amazon did was a travesty. It was Wheel of Shannara: Time Chronicles. That series was not Wheel of Time. If the series would be called differently and the names would be changed to some random names, not the one used in WoT, then it would be a nice, generic post apocalyptic fantasy. But as adaptation it is a crime.

[@rutgerhauer666]

ASOIAF was well written soap opera that has since gone off the rails. LotR is an enduring literary masterpiece. No comparison.

[@Comakino]

It sucks that GRM treats his fans like morons. If he'd just said "I don't want to write it" and been honest about it I would at least respect that

[@davidbreier84]

@@Comakino Can't say it 'cause he took the money, I guess.

[@KalonOrdona2]

I knew I was never going to read the books when I learned the world is just spiraling out of orbit and he said they'll all just fight till they're all dead. I'm not surprised he can't finish it -- it turns out nihilism and meaningful creativity don't quite mix.

[@accreditedbythenicemaninth6495]

I wish I could give your comment more likes!

[@KalonOrdona2]

@@accreditedbythenicemaninth6495 I do what you're doing and add a comment in cases like that. :P Thank you, sir!

[@joshuacalkins]

“I feel sorry for you.” That should’ve been a real apology TO fans, no an alienating insult. I’m sure there are some unpleasant, demanding, inconsiderate fans, but they aren’t the only ones who will read his contempt-filled comments. Most people who are waiting for his book don’t deserve to be treated like that.

[@joshhoffman5233]

There was a serious apology in the Dance with dragons book where he says thank you and I’m sorry to the book fans for taking five years. That was before the TV show was the biggest thing ever. Now he says stfu and stop bothering me book fans. I hope the shows tank and he learns the Star Wars lessons in a different way

[@easternmcg]

@@joshhoffman5233 We can only hope

[@joshuacalkins]

@@joshhoffman5233 Sounds good to me! I do appreciate that some fans must be insufferable, but that is a small percentage compared to the number of loyal readers he just effectively called pathetic. Thanks so much for appreciating my enjoyment of your product, George…

[@Comakino]

George is just an old hippy, and "never trust a hippy" has never been more true

[@Raximus3000]

@@joshhoffman5233 It is what happens when creators get a big head they think they do not need their audience. It pisses me off! If he has issues finishing the books he ought to hire a ghost writer.

[@stevosan3225]

The first three books in the series were some of the best fiction I've read and I couldn't wait for the next. But the following two books seemed to be either written by a different author or by an author that lost his passion and interest in the story. While I would probably read WoW, if it's ever released, I'm less excited about it than GRRM seems to be.

[@JackoBanon1]

The fun fact is that books 4 & 5 were planned as one book but split into half because the story became too complex. And yet not much interesting happened in those books expect of shock moments like Littlefinger killing Sansas aunt or Jons execution by his fellow Night's Watch brothers in the very end. (which is still a big cliffhanger 11 years later and without the show we wouldn't even know about his ressuraction) I read those books 7-8 years ago and the only things I remember are that Stannis is getting very thin and looking into the fire for one whole book while his army is strugling in the snow, Davos got 'executed' just to reveal later that it was a fake Davos and he is still conspiring for Stannis and that somebody with the mask of the hound who pretends to be the hound but can't be the hound because the hound was left to die by Arya in the books is committing crimes in his name. And this goes on and on until you might get the idea that the real hound isn't dead after all. Besides that there were unbelievably boring chapters from Tyrion, Daenarys and other side characters I already forgot.

[@adamrad2220]

Yeah I agree completely. I have rarely been so wrapped up in anything as I was in the first three books of the series. Unfortunately, I read all three of them about 20 years ago. They still stand out as some of my favorite times of staying up almost all night reading and then hating myself in the morning. But yeah, at this point I honestly don't really care about this series.

[@bengough6772]

Agreed, Game of thrones, clash of Kings and Storm of swords are all excellent, Feast for Crows and Dance of Drsgons are both very very VERY slow and very boring.

[@pukovnik7640]

@@JackoBanon1 That is the "middle book syndrome", I think; when a book exists merely to set up plot points for the finale. But Tolkien's "middle book" was perfectly fine, so...

[@dennismoon6693]

It's been a long time since I've read them, but I don't remember book four being that bad, although it was a little off-putting to find that half the case was MIA. Book five was tedious though, especially when he was repeating himself. Given that he's indicated (if I remember correctly) that he's not open to somebody else finishing the series after he's gone, I'm probably not even going to bother getting book six until book seven is published.

[@bushturkey798]

I have not, and will not support anything he makes until he delivers on his flagship series. If he can't finish that, then why would I trust him to complete anything?

[@buildersblox862]

I'm pretty sure the difference between not finishing A Dream of Spring and not finishing The Silmarillion (which Christopher Tolkien had finished his father's work there) is that The Silmarillion is kinda a prequel taking place throughout the entire history, while A Dream of Spring is supposedly an upcoming part of the main narrative of ASOIAF. One was already in a somewhat completed state but not the other.

[@Seomus]

Yeah, Lord of the Rings is a complete story. While the Silmarillion explains some of the backstory, it's nothing that you need to appreciate the trilogy.

[@Lord_Numpty]

Also because Tolkein had the forthought to have pretty much everything ready to the point of releasing the entire LOTR series within 15 months of Fellowship. Martin seems either too overconfident or just arrogant to be so capable.

[@mfhava]

@@Lord_Numpty That's mainly because Tolkien never intended Lord of the Rings to be a trilogy to begin with. It was always meant to be one book - internally split into six "books" plus appendices. LotR being released as a trilogy was the publishers doing...

[@Sipu97]

And yet Silmarillion was the one that started it all. And remember that LOTR is a sequel to the Hobbit.

[@mfhava]

@@Sipu97 I guess you could say that - technically The Book of Lost Tales would be the real starting point, but (parts of) that slowly transformed into the Silmarillion. The key difference to GRRM is: JRRT has not released the first 4 parts of LotR only to then abandon the story, focusing on the Silmarillion, whilst telling everybody "The next LotR part is coming!" for years... Then again JRRT didn't get sidetracked when writing a book like GRRM did when writing a trilogy.

[@SkyStarNova]

We have to assume he is trolling us. That story writes itself at this point, he knows how the show ended, he knows what would work and what wouldn't. He has friends that could help him edit the last 2 books, help keeping the roster of character in check. All this should've made his work that much easier. I honestly think he has fallen into what i call, the Lucas curse. He is no longer satisfied with what he created and doesn't know how to follow it up. Heck, he may even sell the rights to it. Just a theory.

[@eyalsi1070]

Honestly the show has diverged so much from the books in season 5 and onwards, that I can't see the ending being the same. There are so many key characters that are either dead or nonexistent in the show that are still kicking in the books. The size, scope and sheer complexity of the story in book 5, means that ending the series is extremely difficult. Also there are major plot points that are not even developed, like the white walker situation. There is so much ground to cover and with George Swimming in so many other projects I doubt he has any time or interest to finish the series.

[@SkyStarNova]

@@eyalsi1070 True. The show became a travesty on season 5. I could've easily introduced a new version of Lady Stoneheart in that season.

[@CountArtha]

Lucas still has an abiding love for his creation, but he was taken aback by fans' reaction to the first two prequels and didn't want to put his good name on the line any more. I feel bad for the guy.

[@Comakino]

The man is a massive troll. The signs were there since even before the TV show - setting up beloved characters to kill them to subvert expectations, comparing himself to Tolkien, thinking anyone cares about Dunc & Egg books....

[@kongvinter33]

sell it to China, they run most of Hollywood and American entertainment now anyways.

[@reshanner]

My take - The way the show ended is exactly what he was going to do, and the negative reaction of a large group of the fans has left him clueless as to how to end it so he just keeps delaying it.

[@GO0DWOLF]

I kinda doubt that. The only way he would go from that carefully crafted tale to the jr high school quality of writing GoT turned into when they entered new territory would be to suffer a horrible stroke in the interim.

[@aussiewanderer6304]

@@GO0DWOLF the issue was how rushed everything was. People would have felt differently to the ending of each character if there'd been more development and slower portions. What we got was George's ending without the journey each character went through to earn their fate.

[@timmoleft7147]

Ryan Shanner - I agree 100% - the idea that there would be a 'twist' ending whereby Jon Snow fulfills the Prophecy by killing the Dragon Queen instead of becoming King himself is completely the sort of 'clever' ending you would expect him to come up with, but because the show did such a bad and rushed job of portraying it he's now fallen into a hole and doesn't know where to take it.

[@reshanner]

The fact it was so rushed, and simple like "junior high school quality" makes it seem like they just used an outline to finish the show instead of something carefully crafted...which is exactly what they did. They took his outline and basically said "fuck it, this is his ending, he's not going to finish the books or flesh this out any more than this before we're done, and it's time to move on to other (Star Wars) things". George sees how everyone felt about Dany and John's ending, and instead of going from darling to hated - like George Lucas - he left it at the feet of Dan, and Dave, and left us all begging for and wanting him to finish. When he dies he won't have to listen to anybody bitch at him for not finishing. This is just my opinion, but I think it's a solid theory and a reasonable explanation.

[@mykelmellen2378]

No. 😂 Just no.

[@MichaelB-jw5po]

It's really disgusting how little gratitude GRRM has towards his fans.

[@fettmaneiii4439]

not more disgusting than this entitled comment.

[@jp5394]

He's a great example of what a sellout is

[@michaelkikle3018]

You don’t know being spit on until you’re a Stephen King fan, post-2014 lmao.

[@DVankeuren]

@@michaelkikle3018 Used to like stevo, now wouldn't even pirate something he is involved in.

[@penguinjay]

@@DVankeuren truest truth. Everything of his they take interest in SUUUUUUUUCKS. I'll go watch some old adaptations and read some old novels. There's so much that doesn't suck. All for plundering or for free even. I could care less about the soulless adaptations meant to appeal to the most Ftards possible....

[@jhoughjr1]

As a software dev i understand writers block, and not being able to work on something if my mind is not in the right place. But this is well beyond that to me. He knows its easier to string ppl along than to actually deliver. Hea got his money, and this is how he gets more.

[@LilySaintSin]

I feel like he's just fed up with the whole series now and he doesn't really want to finish it.

[@yawgmoth55]

Dude Season 8 killed GOT for me. This man is making products I dont care about while not rectifying the failure thats already happened

[@akasgsvirgil9503]

Little known fun fact. When Martin signed the contract for HBO to produce the series, there was a clause in the contract that stated should the film production overtake the book production, Martin grants HBO the rights to pretty much write the film series as they see fit. This is a large reason why the ending of the last season pretty much sucked. So, in other words, Martin lost control of his book series. This clown actually began writing these books in 1991 and published the first book in 1996. HBO didn't begin production on the series until mid 2010. He had a 14 year head start and was still overtaken by the film production. Now, he's balking on finishing the last book? This is how you run what should've been a really great literary career into the ground.

[@fri8601]

Calling him a clown is ridiculous, he made that deal because it did very well for him and his family. Most writers live their lives and never get a sniff of that sort of success. Hes entitled to do what he wants with his work and most people would do the same thing. Besides the show was amazing for the most part. Im glad he made that choice.

[@deathbymazda]

The show went way too fast tbh

[@DylNewman]

Maybe he’s tired of writing for people like you. I know I would be.

[@floodgates182]

The love of money is the root of all evil.

[@Tracker947]

@FloodGates The root of evil is selfishness. Money is nothing, it's a thing. Love it or hate it, it is the person themself that is the metric by which they are measured.

[@nicholasdonohue4997]

This'll be far more upsetting than Wheel of Time, Berserk or Tolkein not finishing the Simarillion because at least those authors actively put out content and cared about their fan base unlike this toad who can't be bothered to do the one thing anyone cares about him for.

[@aniquinstark4347]

I honestly believe it's impossible for him to finish the series it it's current state. A dance with dragons was an absolute mess and would need to be rewritten almost entirely.

[@marcshields3677]

How so? I really liked it...

[@davidnguyen270]

@@marcshields3677 they don't know. They just complain.

[@abee5344]

@@marcshields3677 you did! what about it did you like?

[@abee5344]

@@davidnguyen270 I love when people who didn't read the books insist on having opinions...🤣

[@aniquinstark4347]

@@marcshields3677 There's way too much going on. So many stories for him to either finish or ignore entirely in the next book. I always liked how there were many different intertwining stories from different characters perspective in these books but I had a hard time following and more importantly giving a shit about half of that last book.

[@felldoh9271]

Write an outline. That’s a great idea; disappointed in myself for never thinking of it. He should type it up, save multiple copies of it in case something happens to his different hard drives, and give it to Steven Erikson (Malazan Book of the Fallen) if he wants to do it. Otherwise we can probably rely on olé faithful (Brandon Sanderson).

[@markstenquist2315]

Brando Sando isn't going to write an ASOIF book lol. BS books are pg-13 not R, especially regarding sexuality.

[@diogovieira5563]

Brandon sanderson is for children.

[@markstenquist2315]

@@diogovieira5563 Well, I mean, millions of adults who read and love his books disagree. Are you just salty because he doesn't include tons of sex scenes? Thematically he has the same maturity as GRRM and other grim darks, he just doesn't go into graphic detail. Sanderson's stormlight series explore war, ptsd, depression, anxiety, and betrayal, all without relying on a blow job to titillate his readers into continuing to read.

[@brontosa5351]

@@markstenquist2315 And he manages to do all of that by building a hundred one dimensional characters all written with exactly the same raw pasta prose, gotta respect that 👍 ....btw George said how in case of his death just "burn everything" so no, forget about ever seeing the end of this series.

[@thisusernameisalreadytaken5132]

I think Sanderson openly admitted that he wouldn't want to finish it since it was so huge or he didnt want to take up being the mantle of Martin. Could be wrong tho. A shame since his writing is so good, but I understand why he feels that he couldnt live up to the expectations of completing ASOIAF.

[@saiyan_princestudios9790]

Imagine if jk Rowling stopped at half blood Prince to write fantastic beasts and just never finished Harry Potter

[@TheDayMang]

I stopped after book 5 anyway. And JK Rowling is a lunatic who apparently crossed the wrong "other lunatics" so now they're eating each other

[@toddpacker1015]

@@TheDayMang lefties cannibalizing each other lolz classic

[@rickstalentedtongue910]

Potter sucks, so I am cool with it.

[@Avarn388]

This is why I love Brandon Sanderson. The man produces consistent, quality work, is open with his fans and loves them. There’s a reason why he made around 30 mill on Kickstarter. Martin is someone who relishes the fame but doesn’t want to put in the work to finish the thing that made him famous and the fans came for. Robert Jordan even understood this. He tired desperately to finish Wheel of Time but when his illness was too grave he did the right thing. He allowed his wife and editor, Harriet, find a replacement in Brandon Sanderson. Overall I have zero respect for modern day Martin.

[@jesusrodrigo9955]

I also love Joe Abercrombie's work

[@petewisdom1984]

Nevermind that Brandon wrote 4 secret books while more or less maintaining his schedule for his already announced books

[@Avarn388]

@@jesusrodrigo9955 Great writer. First Law would be a dope series if adapted well.

[@Avarn388]

@@petewisdom1984 The man is a productivity monster. And I respect him for that.

[@GunManGunHand]

Agree, and thos is why I hold men like Brandon Sanderson, Robert Jordan, R.A. Salvatore, C.S. Lewis, and J.R.R. Tolkien in such ho regards. They were passionate and loved there story. Finish no matter what.

[@badanka87]

The most unexpected kill of all from GRRM- - his own story and legacy

[@Genethagenius]

I first picked up “AGOT” in 1996 at 15. After 26 years and having the show bypass the books and that horrible last season, I think Gary’s right about George’s progress on “TWOW” and if he’ll finish it.

[@SerHuntsReviews]

Ok this dude has never even read the source material. Everything he says about the series is from KZbinrs he watches. This guys is the worst. Literally the worst.

[@SvenTviking]

@@SerHuntsReviews Ah! The poor sad super fan. George can do nothing wrong, can he?😆

[@BlookbugIV]

@@SerHuntsReviews He’s said many times he’s a fan of the books, and was into ASOIAF before it became a TV show. He’s big into all the Tolkien books too. I wonder how we should describe a commenter who makes huge assertions about a KZbinr they know nothing about, literally the worst?

[@roadwarrior528]

Correction: Horrible last TWO seasons.

[@kongvinter33]

I mean the last season was meh, horrible is a bit harsh. I think we all expected too much. and how didnt everyone see that Dani was gonna change? I got that in season 2, was just surprised they waited until the end to do it.

[@JimSelfisHere]

In an interview with Michael Stackpole, Martin said he is so careful with this series because it is what he will be known for once he's gone. Unfortunately though I have to agree with Larry Correia about what he's doing now. His success has made him lazy in regards to finishing this book.

[@makdaddi3921]

It is possible that not finishing something is a way to avoid living up to ones own hype.

[@Akashi-js6rx]

Myself and many other fans have been positing our thesis for years now. GRRM has probably hit writer's block a long time ago, maybe midway through the GoT show. If you'd read his short stories like his 'thousand worlds' universe, most of them have their weakest point at the ends, and one of his novellas "Dying of the Light", basically ends in the middle of action where it shouldn't logically terminate. His endings aren't terrible, but they're arguably the weakest part of his stories. I think he's very good at starting a story, and filling it with a ton of content, but it's like that meme of a horse drawing that gets steadily worse the further left it gets. It's like a finely woven tapestry that ends in frayed threads because he didn't know how to tie them all off successfully. He can do a passable job on them, but THIS is the magnum opus, this is the work that he'll be remembered for, regardless of whatever work he's done. The ending to something as epic as ASoIaF probably has him sweating because he's got to tie off so many threads while making the end satisfying even if it's 'bittersweet'. The beginning, and to some degree the bigger task of ending the story HAS to take place in TWoW, because that's the book that basically sets the terms for how everything in ADoS will unfold. There's simply too much that happens to do the entire ending process in a single book, which is why he's only released sample chapters. Once it's out, it's locked into place, so it's clear the sample chapters are the parts that he feels comfortable enough to see released. Honestly, I think he's given up, or he's terribly lost in the process and doesn't know how to continue in a meaningful pace. Its not that he can't write, given that he did work with FromSoft on Elden Ring.... it's just he can't finish THIS storyline. I think that the ending we got in the show is probably close enough to what he envisioned, and the fact that it cratered the public's opinion of the IP so much that we don't even talk about it anymore scared him to death. And he's largely given up on ADoS, and is sending out TWoW in drips and dribbles in the hopes that his actual fans don't realise this. Because now the fans' hope is for him to not just give them an ending, but "fix" the one they've already got in the show. And he probably doesn't want to face them and admit he's at a loss and that it likely won't finish, because he doesn't want to have to receive that much condemnation and a withdrawal of adoration. Probably as an old man not in the best of health, he's hoped to have fallen terminally ill or died by now because the longer the book is "still on the cards", the closer he gets to the "cook or get out of the kitchen" phase. If he's no longer able to write, then he has a good reason not to and lave the threads hanging forever without having to weave them into a fine tapestry. Or he'll change his mind and leave copious notes for someone else to carry on the legacy. If it succeeds, all credit will go to him for having left behind the blueprint for the inheritor. Should it fail, all blame will go to the new writer who "couldn't capture GRRM's vision". A win-win situation in any case.

[@StrayCatInTheStreets]

The funny thing is he has TWoW opening with the battle of ice (Stannis vs Boltons), battle of fire (meereen), battle of steel (siege of stormsend) and battle of iron (iron fleet attacking oldtown). He could wrap up multiple threads in these 4 battles and then have the others come through the wall and focus all remaining plot points on that

[@StrayCatInTheStreets]

To add to my comment. I think the outline for TWOW is the conclusion of the 4 battles, then the others attacking with jon leading the defence of winterfell as a cliff hanger. Now to get to that in one book would be difficult and judging by his sample chapters there is quite a lot of character plot outside of those battles. I think he has do TWOW in two partts like feast and dance. Simultaneous storylines split by novels- 1 wrap up the 4 battles and get the others down past the wall and 2 - wrap up the minor plot lines and intrigue

[@lillithsummers8817]

Excellent summary. I would add if you really want to get an over view of how ASOIF was to play out, read or go listen to GRRM's " And 7 times, never kill man"

[@ScarecrowFive]

I'm pretty sure GRRM is just trying to run out the clock. He lost control of the story. He saw how his basic ending was unliked on game of thrones. He knows the basic ending is the same. He knows it doesn't matter how much better the buildup is, if the ending still sucks its going to invalidate the journey. He wants to run out of time. Let his magnum opus go unfinished. Then he can be remembered as the guy who didn't finish. Not the guy who wrote the biggest train wreck ending that completely invalidated his entire story.

[@Doppier]

Yes, exactly. HBO's ending had his seal of approval. He even said so himself in the past. Anyone denying this is delusional. When he saw the reaction he could not be bothered to rewrite everything and will just keep making these BS excuses until the fateful day.

[@Monx-ci9hh]

And moreover, The Silmarillion being unfinished was a result of Tolkien's refusal to publish something imperfect, not something incomplete. I doubt there's anybody who could take George's fragments and outlines and turn it into a fairly finished product. Correct me if wrong

[@MaesterMike]

I feel for you GoT fans. I was never a fan, the incredibly dark nature of it turned me off of it, but by God, it deserves to be finished! I can’t believe it’s been over ten years since the last entry! It sucks to see a story never finished. It sucks even more that the author doesn’t seem to care anymore of the work that made him famous to begin with.

[@yadanie6194]

Not a fan, yet you call yourself a Maester? How dare you!

[@MaesterMike]

@@yadanie6194 Funny thing is, my name actually came from Final Fantasy X, not GoT. There are Maesters in that game.

[@Toshiro_Mifune]

nah it's ok. it's for the better. i was reading the first three books back in the day, people with actual taste could clearly see what was coming with the release of feast for crows. he just seemed bored while writing it and it's worse with dance of dragons. like, really really bad writing, i don't even know how his agent let him release it. one thing is for sure though, asoiaf looks cheaper and cheaper the more you grow up, compared with actual great works in fantasy.

[@planetschlock]

I never watched the show and I tried to read the books (before there even was a show) and I just straight up didn't like GRRM's prose. The same reason why I don't really like Stephen King's prose. Too much summary, not enough scene.

[@TheHeroRobertELee]

Anyone as fat as George should make it obvious that they lack serious motivation.

[@holifeet]

"GRRM cares more about the money from HBO than the book fans". Never a truer word spoken. I think I gave up on the books a good while back. There is so much more fantasy and sci-fi literature out there that is as good as, if not better, than ASOIAF. I am a huge fan of Robin Hobb's Elderlings books. I used to wish for a TV series so I could see those characters bought to life. After what they did to Game Of Thrones and the woke mess that was His Dark Materials I now feel I'd rather not see a TV series. I think Hobb feels the same. I'll keep my version of Fitz and co in my head. It does seem a trend in fantasy novels to have to wait a while though. I'm currently waiting for a conclusion to the story of Kvothe and the further adventures of Locke and Jean in Emberlain. There's also the conclusion of Wax and Wayne (but I believe that is coming this year). I'm sure there's more. Oh, Tchaicovsky's (spp) Children Of Time series si something I'm really anticipating the conclusion to, but I read that's this year too. Robin Hobb's Elderling series is pretty much finished. People should certainly go read it all for some great fiction not warped by TV. We'll always wait for new books in series, and be impatient, but GRRM is just taking the piss now. I have it down as never coming now. The ending to TV's GoT was absolute garbage but it's the ending to the series I have to accept. Shame we'll never hear what happens to wonderful characters from the books such as Penny, Jon Connington and Young Griff...to name just a few wonderful characters excised from the TV show.

[@FrancT-]

If you want the GOT that is finished and I my opinion just a good, and way more charming and heartfelt, go read The Faithful and the Fallen by John Gwynne. The hidden gem of fantasy that pays tribute to the classic fantasy tropes. It scratches that itch for sure.

[@holifeet]

@@FrancT- thank you. I shall certainly have a look.

[@FrancT-]

@@holifeet no problem. It has a bit of a rocky start in the first half of book 1, but once it gets going it just never stops and keeps getting better. Hope you enjoy it:)

[@snappycenter7863]

His Dark Materials was woke from the get go in the books too. It's an angstheist trilogy version of The Chronicles of Narnia and Philip Pullman is a fedora-tipper despite his advanced age.

[@gergc4871]

I love Robin Hobb's works.

[@grandmufftwerkin9037]

The Winds of Winter are more likely to hit Thailand than this book is likely to finish.

[@DragonMaster360]

someone pin this, this is perfect lol

[@vulpi6928]

Perfect.

[@erocgittens5962]

"They ALL matter to me" what a huge spit in the face to hus fandom. Im here in 2024 and the book still hasnt come out! George doesnt care about his fans. Period.

[@chesterhardy8103]

George has taught me a very important lesson, don't start reading a lengthy book series until the series is completed.

[@lindanicholson950]

This was one of the reasons I bought Stephen King's Green Mile as it came out one little book at a time but did not read them until I had them all.

[@CrimsonHound84]

Brandon Sanderson has replaced Martin as my go-to author for fantasy storytelling. It's also made me appreciate the classic authors that were able to complete their sagas, their work ethic puts "Lord Too Fat To Sit A Horse" to shame.

[@funkentanz]

Please try out Steven Erikson: Malazan Book of the Fallen. Really good Fantasy!

[@dominusetdeus060644]

Brandon Sanderson is ridiculous. The amount of creativity he has is just incredible

[@Just_Pele]

@@funkentanz Damn it's dense, characters are very hard to follow, and God help you if you take a break for a while and try to come back to it.

[@JustScrapHD]

@@funkentanz I have finished gardens of the moon but i dont think i want to continue. i loved the world and the story but the high amount of POV´s and the often jarring switch between POV´s is really not my thing. It feels more like watching events unfold in bird´s view and less like being there with the characters

[@keiranmorrisart]

Sanderson not only has replaced martin but he highlights how long he is taking to write two books

[@winterwolfcr7]

And Brandon Sanderson has done, what? 8 books in the last 2 years? lol Also, though Sanderson was the right person to finish Wheel of Time - outside Robert Jordan himself - he wouldn't be the right person for GoT.

[@Carrpocalypse]

Abercrombie could do it.

[@southpaw2471]

Joe Abercrombie maybe

[@winterwolfcr7]

@@southpaw2471 I haven't read any of his books, yet. He's only my back log list. But I have heard a lot of great things.

[@Gonboo]

@@Carrpocalypse Erikson might be a better choice.

[@inertian4723]

This just reminds me of the unfortunate authors who passed away before they could finish their books. Rest In Peace, Robert Jordan. And at least he outlined his books so his wife/editor could find a great author to finish them.

[@mrfreeman2911]

Only for Amazon to rape his legacy.

[@lostcolonyofkekkoslovakia9451]

Yet the ending felt very paint-by-numbers and lacking in any epic feel. It just ended.

[@Trapsarentgay133]

I think Brandon did the best he could

[@makemeajmod]

@@Trapsarentgay133 yes brandond did a fantastic job. You could tell it was a different author but it still had the Jordan feel. It's a damn shame Amazon went and bastarized the whole story.

[@TheChzoronzon]

I can't understand the popularity of Wheel I mean, in the first book it was somewhat funny the total collapse of the naive protagonist upon anything with a nice pair of tits... even if he is 20 y.o, it can be possible for a young farmer ...but 8 books later, when he has become basically a semi-God/Supreme Wizard/Uber Warrior, that same reaction for the 345th time is not only ridicule and absurd...it speaks volumes about the traumas of the author

[@Gary_Nadeau]

I'm so happy to never have start to read his books. I got close to buy them a few years ago and realized that we will likely never got an ending.

[@Gary_Nadeau]

@The Indigo Knight i see no reason to start a story without an ending. what the point if nothing is resolved and no question is answered.

[@dackhornbold322]

I've given up on GRRM and Game of Thrones by this point. Same with Patrick Rothfuss...it's been so long that I've lost interest and am not going to invest any time in these two authors.

[@MrsYasha1984]

For years now I thought he would not finish it. He started out strong, by subverting the story tropes we knew so well in an intruiging way. But in the end, we'll want to see the GOOD triumph. And for that, he'd need to break away from the decontruction and start constructing from the mess he created. And he can't do that. The chaos is too big. I must say, the point where my heart sank and I kind of knew this goes nowhere, is when the Lady Stoneheart got introduced. The mother of the Stark children as a tragic loss of the red wedding, a martyr figure, would have been powerful enough. But noooo, now shes a vengeful zombie, clearly steered by not herself. And yet again a new plotline, yet again a distraction from the main plotline that should now construct to end with the victory of Good. He can't do it. His story IS lady stoneheart. Had some merit in life, but it died and now is a corpse with no good left in it. So he can't write the ending. Nobody can, since the ending he had planned in the beginning wouldd not fit anymore

[@honeybee4016]

@@adriaan4808 Exactly. Especially considering the fact that the big bad aka The Others are not developed enough for us to root for them. In all honesty George could write a story where the bad guys win instead of the good guys but for the audience to like that ending there has to be enough sympathy for the bad guy. I think only Cersei somewhat generates that sympathy. We never get a Littlefinger POV so no luck there. Euron is more of a classic deranged bad guy with no redeeming qualities. The Others, honestly are the least developed despite being alluded as powerful enough to destroy the entire world. So where that leave us but rooting for the 'good' guys? Except the good guys are kind of stuck in a rut and it would probably take hundreds of chapters for them to even meet. But by then the Others should have advanced further inland and Euron might have a hold and....the plot just does not look like it can ever converge. If anything asoiaf can actually be used to argue why the tropes exist in the first place and why they are used so often. *sigh*

[@scarliox720]

A disney-tier happy ending would be as shitty as the tv show's ending.

[@rickstalentedtongue910]

I am cool with the world being saved or destroyed. Just tell your story.

[@Wheelz_44]

Brandon Sanderson wrote 5 secret novels on top of his already growing ongoing series during the pandemic. He released them as the highest grossing kickstarter in history. That’s gotta hurt. Go be fans of him.

[@WasatchWind]

I feel certain Brandon will one day be known as the greatest fantasy author of the 21st century. Of course we have 78 years for something to change that, but gosh the man just is a writing machine - But oddly for all he churns out I still find that his stories, at least not yet, still feel fresh and surprising. I'm a bit nervous of him wanting to add more and more to the cosmere, but at his current rate, barring extraneous circumstances, I feel like he really could pull all this off. Then it'll be left to Hollywood to actually bring his work to life. I'm very scared.

[@WasatchWind]

@@LedZeppelin03Music Have you read any of his work?

[@andrewjackson3603]

He’s overrated when compared to Jordan or even Martin, but he does write fast, so I’ll give him that.

[@chancelewis6674]

​@@LedZeppelin03MusicHow many game of thrones books did your lover write in 5 years?

[@slimbombur7922]

This is going to end as it did with Robert Jordan. Someone else will have to step in and finish the books when G.R.R Martin passed on. And what is the point of creating a world with lore if you can't finish a single story? Why make characters, places and events when it doesn't lead to anything or have any other point besides they exist?

[@KostitosConQueso]

I fear that after the series ended on such a flop, people hoped George would fix things but sadly that's not looking like it's going to happen. As someone who is concerned about legacy, I wonder if he realizes that the show and an unfinished book series will completely gut his?

[@JustaGuy_Gaming]

Nah I think it's the opposite problem. As it stands now he's famous for inventing perhaps the most detailed fantasy series since Tolkien and starting a craze with the TV series that drew in pretty much every one. Even people not normally into Fantasy TV shows. That the TV show ended so poorly however puts George in a tight spot. If he writes the books and it's not great he loses the ability to blame the TV show for it's failures. That what happened in the TV show were actually his idea's is a possibility and he has no plan B. Simply put he can go down in history as the amazing author who didn't finish his work before he died.... Or he can finish it and be a disappointment. Plus TV show and movie collaborations are easy money compared to writing a book and make him far more famous.

[@KostitosConQueso]

@@JustaGuy_Gaming Well said. That's a good take on the issue.

[@Stoy981]

He doesn’t care, he’s gotten paid and continues to be paid for his TV work. The only thing that bothers him are the nagging fans.

[@12345673260]

@@JustaGuy_Gaming Interesting take. It really might be a similar situation to: "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt." Just replace the foolishness with storytelling competence.

[@chatteyj]

​@@Stoy981 Yep the passion and need has gone, too much money plus the tv show kinda wrapped things up. Theres an outside chance in a few years when everything has quietened down that he might pick up a pen if a better ending comes to him I reckon.

[@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623]

I'm SO glad that I never watched GoT nor read these novels. You can't compare leaving ASOFAI unfinished with the Tolkien leaving the Silmarillion unfinished, George. For one Tolkien never published the Silmarillion. What he did published, he did finish. Maybe you should use the Chewbacca defense, George. I hear it works better. Or hire a ghostwriter. Let him do most of the work with your outline, you can always edit and add a few touches yourself, and like with Tom Clancy in his later years you can say it was a collaboration.

[@zacharyradford5552]

Hell Tolkien had a reason he died but he was working on it, I think. Martin is just enjoying the money from a half assed tv show.

[@Astropeleki]

Also Tolkien couldn't finish it because he *literally died* , which is also what happened to the author of The Wheel of Time. And the best part is that even the Wheel of Time has been finished by another author, Brandon Sanderson himself! If even a dead man can get his book series done, I really don't see why George shouldn't 🤷‍♂️

[@kirschakos]

@@Astropeleki I think he stated before that he don't want anyone else to finish it for him. I can totally imagine that in his last will testament - if he has one - he included that nobody can touch it.

[@Apollo890]

Also Tolkien did not dangle the promise of the Silmarillion being published over the heads of fans for years. He never intended to release it at all.

[@chaptermasterpedrokantor1623]

@@Apollo890 Did fans even know Tolkien was working on a general frame work of myths and legends for Middle Earth? They were probably all hoping he was going to do a sequel, or maybe a prequel. But as you said, Tolkien never raised fan expectations of anything new coming. He mostly did it for his own amusement. Which is why his body of work is sacred nerd text. Anyone who creates this elaborate an imaginary world for his own amusement mostly has to be king of the nerds. Earning nerd respect.

[@curesoon]

Here's my theory: The TV show followed Martin's story outline closer than we realize, and when Martin saw how much people hated the end, he was left trying to figure out what to do.

[@sbam4881]

It's not trolling or laziness, it's actually breaking a fiduciary duty if he does not complete the series. We pay for stuff _only in the expectation of its completion_ all the time. A lawyer who drops a case 3/4ths of the way through is in serious danger of being disbarred. We hire a contractor to build a house to completion. We don't hire him so that, after paying 5 or 7 installments, he can disappear and leave the house w/o a roof rendering the building completely useless. Think about this: How many of us would have bought "A Game of Thrones" if, when we first saw it in the bookstore, the blurb said "Book 1 of 7 in the A Song of Ice and Fire series...of which only 5 will ever be written." Probably none of us nor any of the subsequent 4. What we paid for is not each book in isolation. Perhaps GRRM should refund us all if he's not going to complete it.

[@kongvinter33]

Winds will be released....Spring? not so much

[@kanyewest6539]

i want WoW as much as the next guy, but this is the most entitled shit ive ever read.

[@ArrakisHeir88]

I'm going to go ahead and let you guys know as a person who has played the Souls series for over 8,000 hours and also read ASOIAF repeatedly, George didn't write anything in this game. They paid him to put his name in the credits, that's all.

[@Stringer13ell]

Even if thats the case thats still a valid enough reason to boycott the game. We need to stop giving this man money

[@stickystevie9047]

Disagree; the way a lot of the characters are written, as well as the overarching history of the world has that unfakable touch of Martin strewn about. Miyazaki's fuckin always been similar in the way he and his team accomplish shit, but the map itself feels wholly Martin.

[@clydefrog6959]

Thank god a person who has played a game knows the mind of an author - absolute moronic stretch.

[@ArrakisHeir88]

@@Stringer13ell Oh I love Elden Ring, I'm just letting you know.

[@hahaufarted]

Nah, theres enough incest, pedophilia and rape in the character's backstories that Georgy boy definitely had his mitts on it. Granted, a bit of backstory isn't a lot of work, but he did put some stuff in the game.

[@gasmanoo2]

If everyone had the same work-ethic as him, nothing would ever get finished. Imagine bridges 3/4 done, skyscrappers with no roof, stairs that lead nowhere, tunnels that end half-way through-trains crashing into solid rock. Writting is his job, if I left my job half-way finnished, I would be fired.

[@rauli386]

His publisher won't ever fire him

[@dingfeldersmurfalot4560]

If I left mine half-finished, people would die. Either do the task you're charged with the fullest extent of your abilities or don't do it at all, IMO.

[@jerryhampton5755]

@@dingfeldersmurfalot4560 looks like you left school half finished lol

[@notthis9586]

Ah yes, building a bridge, which almost always takes multiple firms of architects, engineers, construction workers, ect, a each doing one small part to make a thing that is necessary for the convenient transportation of people and goods, and is funded by the state, is the same as one private citizen's creative writing project. I'm not a fan of how he's treating his fans either, but come on 🤦‍♂️

[@nurityalieva3852]

Do you know that literature is a form of art honey?

[@TheGrimmCommoner]

This guy doesn't write a single book in 2021 and compares himself to Tolkien. Tolkien finished Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, Beowulf, Sir Gwaine and the Green Knight, and multiple short stories and new languages. Brandon Sanderson wrote at least four books in 2021 alone and completed Robert Jordan's magnum opus, yet he doesn't get as much praise as Martin.

Just for precision: Tolkien didn't write Beowulf. I think he wrote a commentary on it (it was part of his scholarly work, him being an actual university professor and all).

[@TheGrimmCommoner]

@ I believe it was more of a retelling/remastered version of the original story.

[@1978garfield]

Tolkien didn't write any books in 2021 either. They finally have somthing in common.

[@rocketlioness]

@@1978garfield your sense of humour is top notch

[@1978garfield]

@@rocketlioness Thanks

[@davidbawden8305]

I never had gotten so into a series before. I would read the ASOIAF books, the pre-release chapters, and all of the related books, every couple of years. I would regularly listen to youtubers discuss ASOIAF theories, and I played the Telltale game. I would spend hours each and every week escaping into my favorite fantasy world. I don't care if the show ending wasn't well received, it was terribly made and the books were going to be so much more complex and interesting. Eventually I admitted to myself that Dream would never come out but at least I would get Winds, hopefully soon (this was a couple years ago). I would obsessively look for updates about progress on Winds and when it might come out. Then I finally accepted that I probably won't even get Winds. And now, I'm out. Done. I was in the middle of reading the books again and just stopped. I unsubscribed from the youtubers I went to for years for ASOIAF lore videos. And yet... if WoW ever comes out I'll buy it instantly and read it, and if Dream never comes out, that's okay with me. I just want Winds. And *until* Winds comes out, I will never watch HBO shows, read his other stories, nada. GRRM isn't getting another penny out of me unless/until Winds is out, and honestly, I hope all his other ventures fail miserably. No ASOIAF fan gives a single fart about this other crap. I have a lot of huge ASOIAF fan friends and they've all given up on Winds and GRRM tpp. Maybe after he's gone someone can come along and finish. I'd take top tier fan fic at this point.

[@alexanderorbell6455]

I'm exactly the same! On the plus side reading ASOIAF has got me into reading and I've enjoyed other fantasy series like Witcher, Wheel of Time and the Joe Abecombromie series'

[@goldinreid]

I used to feel this same way until I started watching Preston Jacobs' channel. His theories are so well thought out, researched, and interesting that I'm happy to just accept them as canon if we never get WoW.

[@dimble3]

I'm exactly the same mate I find it particularly shitty seeing as all the fans have said that George should take his time only to find that he's been working on these various other projects after promising to get Winds done years ago.

[@davidbawden8305]

@@goldinreid I'm not familiar with preston jacobs (and maybe will look up his stuff if we ever get Winds) but I was balls deep in different theories that were definitely basically correct. But that's kind of a ghost of getting to read the full on story of those theories coming to fruition.

[@davidbawden8305]

@@dimble3 For a long time I was super patient because Winds was going to end up to be such a gigantic book (maybe even split into two gigantic volumes) but after a couple of years of GRRM almost explicitly saying its on his back burner, and then he's constantly starting up new projects... I was checked out as of a year or two ago but if I wasn't this latest update from GRRM would have been the last straw.

[@quiddity131]

Gary, you're an optimistic man with respect to ASOIAF and GRRM's progress on this! My takes: -Halfway done with The Winds of Winter? My belief is that the only material he has actually written is the chapters that got pushed out of A Dance With Dragons and maybe a few more pages that were needed for a contractual payment/advance from his publisher years ago. Good chance he hasn't actually written anything new in 6 or 7 years. -We haven't received 1 book that was split into two; we received 1 book that was split into two and had much of its climaxes pushed to an as of yet unpublished book. -Given the amount of needless fluff in the two most recent books (which clearly shows that GRRM needs a real editor, or at least once he doesn't overrule), if The Winds of Winter actually gets published it will likely end with Arya still in Bravos, Daenerys still in Essos, Jon Snow still dead or only recently revived and a pace that won't even get through the end of what became season 6 of the show. This story requires at least 2 more books after The Winds of Winter if not more to finish.

[@zeriel9148]

Most people are like this when they get a taste of money and fame. Why do hard work when you get money for doing nothing? It's one of the great paradoxes of success, the artistry & creativity tends to fall off once a regular paycheck starts coming in.

[@Grimmlocked]

same with king killer chronicles... rothfuss is never finishing that series

[@Avarn388]

@@Grimmlocked Yup. Writers owe it to themselves to be transparent with their fans and try to produce work for them. They wouldn’t be who they were without fans.

[@Grimmlocked]

@@Avarn388 I started reading Sanderson, Robert e Howard, and Michael moorcock. People who have massive bibliographies (and one who is constantly putting out stuff)

[@zeriel9148]

@@Grimmlocked Moorcock is a beast. At the height of his pulp magazine days he was putting out a novel-sized work per day. Now that's work ethic.

[@dugonman8360]

Theres a story about where Martin stood up while at a book signing when he saw Tad Williams, the author of the Memory, Sorrow and Thorn series (which was one of the main influences to ASOIAF) and yelled at him to "Get back home and finish writing!" Due to anticipating the third book, To Green Angel Tower, so much. TGAT was unheard of at the time for missing its deadline mulitple times and taking a staggering THREE YEARS to finish, which was such a massive book it had to be printed as two seperate paperbacks when released. Do you think the winds of winter will have to be split into two books on release?

[@batmanuel9669]

Winds of Winter will get started soon as GRRM hires a new ghost writer. 😆

[@GunManGunHand]

His own ghost.

[@Inshokuten69]

I stopped believing years ago that the story would be finished. My care factor for everything related in any way to game of thrones has hit as close to zero as possible without actually being zero. If I am wrong, I might still read it... but only might.

[@eldestgruff]

I've completely lost hope in A Song of Ice and Fire, The Kingkiller Chronicle, and The Gentleman Bastard Series ever getting endings. Every single one is 10+ years out from the last book. Not that they need to have the Brandon Sanderson psycho energy to burn through a book+ per year but we just had 2 years where most people couldn't travel or really leave their house and those 3 guys still couldn't get it done. They found fame and now are too preoccupied doing "fun" stuff to actually finish their books that got them that fame in the first place.

[@yurioorlov177]

Rothfus had the 3rd one all written and done, got told it could not get printed it was too large. He threw a tantrum destroyed the work and that was the last we heard.

[@eldestgruff]

@@yurioorlov177 oh shit for real? When was that? I definitely believe it. I stopped keeping up a couple years ago because all he was doing was streaming games and bitching about Trump on twitch.

[@yurioorlov177]

@@eldestgruff years ago long before trump won, so like 2015ish iirc

[@caws5a]

@@yurioorlov177 Oh Shit! Never heard that before. That's nuts. Any links to a confirmed story about this? I too was sooooo interested in this series at one point then, well yeah you know...

[@tyrannosaurusimperator]

@@yurioorlov177 I believe everything but that he couldn't get it published for being too large. I think he threw a tantrum and destroyed the manuscript, just to spite his fans.

[@leticiamaranhao412]

I was 8 and in third grade when Dance came out. I'm in my last year of college and will probably even be finished with my Masters before he ever publishes Winds.

[@dragons_advocate]

Your grandchildren will be married before Winds.

[@treesurgeon2441]

I have the feeling that the end of the show is exactly what he had in mind and he just wants to scrap it.

[@gabe9346]

I was a super fan for about 5 years but the last few seasons of the show and GRRM's indifference (or whatever it is) has completely sucked the life out of it for me.

[@kongvinter33]

to be fair, Martin had nothing to do with the last 2 seasons.

[@frankgesuele6298]

@@kongvinter33 But why start the books knowing you'll never get closure?

[@JackoBanon1]

@@kongvinter33 Martin had nothing to do with the last 4 seasons. He left the show after season 4 because D&D wanted to dumb down his storylines and make the show 'appealing for a wider audience'. You can see the drop in quality in season 5 already.

[@armoda1057]

@@JackoBanon1 what you said is true but GRRM also deserves blame for the show’s ending. If he had finished WoW in time, there would’ve been a lot more material for D&D to adapt rather than having to do the writing on their own. It’s incredible that WoW has not been published yet.

[@JackoBanon1]

@@armoda1057 Martin said often enough that there was enough material for more than 10 seasons and that it was D&Ds choice to rush and skip whole plotlines to finish the show very fast.

[@Dekken88]

"Winter is coming" turned out to be the greatest threat for Martin himself - and it seems he does not dare face it in the end. And so neither will we.

[@jayegeecorporate8788]

Genuinely surprised the fandom hadnt called for a GRRM boycott years ago

[@debutriah2854]

Overreaction from a baby 💀

[@jayegeecorporate8788]

@@debutriah2854 words of a cuckhold

[@rickstalentedtongue910]

@@debutriah2854 Money talks

[@Zectorman]

I whole heartily recommend the Stormlight Archive series by Brandon Sanderson. More consistent writing, just as epic or more so writing.

[@AeneasGemini]

Woah woah woah, you don't just start with the Stormlight Archive, you won't get half the references if you start The Cosmere there. Warbreaker, Mistborn and possibly Elantris are very useful before you start on the real shit

[@yurioorlov177]

Same when it comes to Proper high fantasy these days Sanderson has gotten it really well done.

[@rodericblack4657]

Sanderson is a very, very mediocre writer.

[@Zectorman]

@@AeneasGemini Well I like reading Stormlight to start because if you go in blind you will enjoy more of the surprises the Cosmere has to offer as opposed to immediately looking for connections. I started with Way of Kings and was blown away by all the reveals over the course of the series. After I caught up then I went back and started reading everything else.

[@Zectorman]

@Jorj His own work holds up better I feel, I know the Wheel of Time book he did gets mixed reviews because he obviously isn't the original author, but the one trusted with his work

[@Corrupt-R]

So I have a question for you all. Assume the absolute best case scenario, Winds is released this year. Would you even bother reading it? There's still another book to go after that to finish the story, and the odds of that ever happening seem so slim. It would just be another cliff hanger with no ending. I don't know about you guys, but it's hard to devote to thousands of pages of story with no end. It would be like watching 15 seasons of a show and then never getting the final season 16. Waste of time in many ways...

[@ynptrip]

I would pirate the ebook. I am sure as hell not giving him any more money for descriptions of food, clothing, and no plot development.

[@jeremylewis5551]

I refuse to watch anything related to GoT until the books are finished.

[@varsityathlete9927]

lucky you

[@austincaucci]

Then you’ll never watch it. We’re never seeing the last 2 books. I was fine with the last season but honestly lost interest in got because George just doesn’t care.

[@Immperc]

Don’t forget; DANCE was originally half of FEAST, but it was taking him so long to finish FEAST that he decided to split the books. You can check his blog entries if you don’t believe me. So we’ve really only gotten a book and a half since STORM came out in 2000.

[@Warraci]

George has always been the second fiddle to Tolkien, and now, forever will he remain so. Selling out his artistic vision to HBO, then complaining about how it came out, is the height of hubris. Yet, ever and again will his devoted, mindless legion of fans eagerly take up his banner to defend him. He can sod right off.

[@ralcogaming7674]

As someone who only recently read the books (I finished dance about 2 months ago) George is awfully full of himself. His constant jabs at Tolkien are without merit, George's own world building suffers from his writing style. Why was dondarian able to be revived numerous times but dondarian had to die to bring Catlyn back? If there's magic it needs rules George! Jesus even the elder scrolls has rules for magic yet a song of ice and fire just ignores this important aspect of a magic system. If magic requires sacrifice then why is there magic being used without sacrifice? Furthermore why he felt the need to introduce new characters in the (at the time) 2nd to last book I'll never know, blackflame didn't need to exist, yes I'm glad victarian isn't going to die like a dumbass now but valyrian isn't a dead language many can read it we didn't need a new character to do this. Lady stoneheart is cool and all except why the actual fuck did she try to kill brienne? She was specifically killing those involved with the red wedding brienne wasn't there. George also lacks and spatial awareness. Robb Stark is killed in book 3 and fairly early on, but by the time Jamie arrives at riverrun to end the seige Jane westerling is apparently so freshly pregnant he can't tell by looking if she is or not and has to ask. Because I'm no doctor but um women do a thing while pregnant where they grow larger around the belly area. This isn't a small amount of time either, Jamie leaves for kings landing shortly before the red wedding. Get caught and held at harrenhall, leaves goes back for brienne, then those 2 go to kings landing where joffery dies, tyrion is tried, during that is when brienne leaves, twyin dies, Jamie ends up leaving to make a better name for himself and honor his pact with cat. This all apparently takes place in less than what? 3 months, there's no way it's supposed to take months to travel between kingdoms longer with a war still smouldering. Sorry to rant its just irritating that such basic things are ignored for the sake of drama in his books.

[@iMajoraGaming]

@@ralcogaming7674 like the first 3 blocks of this are literally just you not really paying attention to the books and then it coming back to haunt you when you're unable to understand things because you barely skimmed over the preceeding story. beric is not thoros, he cannot peform the red kiss that thoros can. he is not a red priest, he is barely even human anymore and by then has no remaining memories of his former family or life. he did not do the thing thoros does. it is literally stated outright, in that section, that what beric gave was the flame of life, not the red kiss, the flame of life, they are not the same thing.

[@ralcogaming7674]

@@iMajoraGaming but thoros was there. He could have resurrected catlyn same as he did beric, but he didn't, it was a lazy way to write a character out of the story. And even if (biiiiig IF) that was only done to set up catlyn giving up life to bring jon back it means nothing if the books never get a conclusion. I didn't skim anything, I read it very thoroughly and I'm coming away with more questions than answers. Now sure that's GRRMs style, great mysteries and all that however, it does not feel satisfying when plot elements are being made up over halfway through a story. Lady stoneheart might be one of the more interesting characters in the books yet as it stands we get 2 total chapters that she's even in and her actions make very little sense. Brienne has no reason to lie to Catlyn yet they still attempt to kill her, the brotherhood without banners would not condone such acts either hanging freys is one thing catlyn was an eyewitness to their crimes and as such her word on those matters is absolute but blindly following an order to hang someone because your leader didn't believe them is out of their MO. And that's IF I choose to ignore the fact that gendry met her once before, and could attest to at least part of her story. At the time brienne is asked she has a good idea of where sansa is AND knows arya was alive after the red wedding which up until that point arya was presumed dead by all she has more than enough information to give yet doesn't and even the plea she makes falls on deaf ears, now of course Lady stoneheart is a literal corruption of catlyn Stark, where catlyn Stark was a motherly figure willing to trust others and see the good in people Lady stoneheart is the opposite she's vengeful and cares for no ones morality only her own sense of justice. And all that from 2 chapters. We're told in book 3 I believe that thoros can revive the dead, which is the same book catlyn is revived in yet it isn't thoros reviving her beric does it inexplicably, had they said it was because she was too dead or too long dead maybe but this also isn't true arya (in nymerias skin) pulls her out of the water shortly after the red wedding during the same moment the brotherhood finds her. This is a matter of at most hours. If I'm lost because I haven't paid attention that's on me, if I'm lost because I have paid attention that's on the writing. As much as I enjoyed the books anything needing an answer will never get one and that's assuming it would have been answered at all. Even the whole bran assassination only gets a "conclusion" from 2 separate characters coming to the same conclusion about who ordered it. Now sure we could use some deductive reasoning to arrive at the same conclusion but for this very important plot point to go mostly ignored is a failure of writing as well. The attempted assassination of bran is what sparks the mistrust of the lannisters leading to cat taking tyrion and subsequently starting the war. Before tyrion and Jamie figure it out the most we get is one cersei chapter where she and Jamie discuss it characters realizing who did it should be a major moment but it isn't.

[@iMajoraGaming]

@@ralcogaming7674 thoros literally refused, in that scene, because she'd been dead for three days. he says that he won't because it will not be like bringing thoros back, again, *because she's been dead three days and is too far gone.* she comes back as what amounts to a revenant, or vengeful spirit. she's half-decayed and is not a human being. if thoros had tried to bring her back, it might not have even worked. thoros said no. beric chose to give what little of himself was left. he did not give her the red kiss, i do not know how you could read something "thoroughly," but still be confused about "why didn't thoros just do it? he was there >:(" despite him literally just saying "no, it's been too long, there's no way she'll come back as anything good." beric no longer wanted to be alive. so he gave her the flame of life. the flame of life and red kiss are not the same thing. they literally gave them two different names. catelynn is not a human. she's literally a resurrected corpse. her brain had been rotting for three days. the literal entire point of Lady Stoneheart is that she's the antithesis to her former self, she's a revenant, she's literally a monster. the brotherhood is a band of outlaws with noble-trappings. their most senior member just died to save this revenant, they just witnessed a three day corpse rise. that's probably enough to cow bandits into submission, because right then, they didn't *know* she was an insane monster. harwin just told them how good and pure she was and how she was so good she *needed* to be brought back. they have no reason to not follow her, and by the time they realize they're following a spirit willing to murder innocents for even being *suspected* of being involved in the red wedding, it's too late, they're too terrified and too complicit to leave and do anything else. they're criminals. not a sacred order of monks. she had people entirely innocent of the red wedding killed long before brienne. again, she is a *three day rotten corpse, her brain had been rotting for three days.* they literally *say* she's been dead for three days, how can you miss that considering it's said in plain english??? you read it "thoroughly???" i mean, clearly not, maybe you read a ploy synopsis, or only watched the TV show, but no, you didn't read the books "thoroughly," if at all. instead of lying by omission, just comp to the truth, whatever it is, instead of trying to create this manufactured, blatantly wrong version of the story so you can triumphantly pretend there were plotholes that, in the actual books, didn't exist, all so you can... i have no idea, maybe cope with the nonexistence of winds and dream by making up a version of the story that's way worse than what actually exists, so as to say "it was bad anyways, i don't want the ending after all." i can't think of any good reason to blatantly lie about plot details of books that have been out for over a decade.

[@Spartan-hu2go]

@@ralcogaming7674 what jabs has he taken at tolkien? Ive heard him criticize his works, but he was always respectful in the videos I saw.

[@natesmith2408]

George will never finish the books. He doesn't give a shit. It's a true slap in the face to fans. There's an unwritten agreement between the author and the fans that eventually they'll get the end of the story or they wouldn't have started reading in the first place. George is rich because people thought they would get the end of the story.

[@Erik_Swiger]

It's a Ponzi scheme.

[@TheDeadlyKnight]

He’ll prob say “JRR Tolkien never finished the Silmarillion…. fans never held that against him.”

[@TheDeadlyKnight]

@@benlunch7618 Yes. Martin should stop with the comparison. Tolkien told his story in-full. The expanded mythology were ancillary works.

[@beyondz55]

Tbf his publisher pushed for more books after Storm of Swords....I think he originally only planned a trilogy....

[@TheDeadlyKnight]

@@beyondz55 It’ll be interesting to see how many yrs from now we get A Dream of Spring? & who actually will end up writing it?

[@BlackBrisingr4]

For the last few months I've considered just dropping the Song of Ice and Fire series, in part to open up shelve space and in part because it felt like Martin was kind of disrespecting me and the other fans with the constant delays, lack of updates, lack of real progress, and even a few comments here and there. However, THIS really pushes me towards the "Drop" side. One more push and I think I'm done, and I'm speaking as a writer here. I totally get wanting to work on other projects, but Martin seems very condescending with his message here and motivated more by greed than an honest desire to work on other things. At least, that's what it seems like to me.

[@calvinwilson3617]

If you are honestly waiting for winds you should probably just move on, because as it stands he has no intention of finishing it. He said that winds was his primary focus before finishing anything else, and now he lists like 8 different works that he is finishing first. You dont put something off that much unless you have lost your passion and qre just hoping it will come back at some point

[@shadow_realm47]

This is exactly why George who says all the time that he's worried about his legacy, wont have a legacy. Those other books he writes ( i've read them) take away from the main story because they exist cus the final third of the main story doesn't. And they serve a more and more niche market with each new book. On the other hand existing readers are falling off like flies and even passionate readers are not going to recommend ASOIF wholeheartedly. The last part is what builds a lasting legacy. People will still recommend Tolkien to beginner fantasy readers with enthusiasm but you'll feel the energy is off when someone recommends ASOIF.

[@ciscornBIG]

Let me give you the final push then: be gone. "Disrespecting fans" lmao, stfu

[@chrissexton4129]

Two years later, still no sign of Winds of Winter