You Could Face Jail Time by Buying an AWD & NOT a 4WD SUV!

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#awd #4wd

[@darrenfincher7595]

Park service should build an obstacle at entry....all towing at your expense LMAO

[@bk3720]

Agreed, ittl scare off those who shouldn't be on the trail.

[@thedangerson]

A true redefinition of "barrier to entry".

[@plmn93]

This is common on mountain bike trails. If you can't handle the entry feature, stay off the trail.

[@lanceripplinger8352]

I'm seeing a lot of really sound comments on this video, countering TFL's argument here. I like how someone pointed that AWD cars can tear up trails more, because people will drive around obstacles in those. That in turn widens trails, and damages the environment that trails are designed, and intended to protect. The whole point of trails is to preserve the natural landscapes around it. You even have former NPS rangers saying TFL is misunderstanding the rules a bit.

[@plmn93]

Do you think that Bronco Sport is going to tear up the trail more than a 5500 pound f-150 with open diffs? I guarantee it won't. The rule is antiquated and the possibility of 6 months in jail for a minor infraction is downright tyrannical and any ranger who doesn't understand that should probably not be a ranger to begin with.

[@arrdubu]

NPS can suck it

[@briantoner5247]

14:17 certain Evoques will fit 16” rims. Put them w largest off-road tires that will fit & you should be good.

[@the305hauler]

Booyah 👊🏽 😁 👍🏽 🇺🇲 I support it, but it should be modernized a bit.

[@sergeantschlumpf6368]

😮😮😮😮😮 5:42 Cherokee trailhawk would qualify

[@Silverback_GMT410]

A 4X4 has a transfer case. A 4WD is anything with 4 Driven Wheels. And not every 4X4 has a low range. The Escalade GMT800 yall had did not have a low range and new Expeditions without the HD tow pack or non Timberline only come with 4auto and has no 4Hi or 4Lo

[@1FiftyOverland]

AWDs are for snowy roads and forest/fire trails. NOT 4wd trails.

[@DampNoodles]

They are literally driving in an AWD vehicle this whole video to show this is untrue...

[@1FiftyOverland]

@@DampNoodles and hardly a 4wd trail they are driving on. 🙄

[@norsefalconer]

What about the Rivian Truck? It doesn't even have a transmission, let alone a transfer case. But, that thing is wicked capable off road.

[@1FiftyOverland]

@@norsefalconer I'm just not a fan of EVs so they should stay in mall parking lots.

[@norsefalconer]

@@1FiftyOverland I personally think EVs are interesting, and look forward to seeing where the technology goes. Too each their own though. Hope you have a great day!

[@tshackelton]

Cpl of things... Since that bronco has in your words "center diff lock", then that does indeed meet the park service recommendation. That said, listen to that drivetrain struggling to get over those lil rocks. tq converter let go, lock, move 4 inches, starts slipping again, stop... more gas, lurch forward 5 inches. (~3mins in) Any 40yr old 4x4 truck could idle up that hill in 4 lo, and you guys are talking like it's eating up trails like a rubicon.

[@mickymouse63]

Rivian and Cybertruck does not meet the parks board definition. They need to update the definition.

[@3rdpig]

Just a tip, if you're going to argue with a Park Ranger or ignore their directives, you're going to need a lot of money and a team of good lawyers to get your vehicle back, much less stay out of jail. Anyone who's dealt with Fish Cops knows what I mean. They have broad powers, even outside their jurisdiction.

[@jessesimpson777]

If it's outside of their jurisdiction don't they by law not have any power at that point? I thought that's how jurisdictions work...

[@AK-Brian]

@@jessesimpson777 Depends on the type of Parks or Fish & Wildlife ranger. Many areas are handled under federal agencies rather than at the state level, but even at the state level their jurisdiction extends, well, state-wide. Traditional police officers operate more regionally (excluding state troopers).

[@jcgw2]

Oh old fashioned American freedom of speech

[@phgamer4393]

yea but thats the thing good lawyers can fight the federal government. just because they have power doesnt mean they're right lol. sadly the common man cant really afford to get into that fight .

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

@@phgamer4393 They don't need to lawyers can work for free as long as the guy who's wrong pays for it.

[@AS-um7hu]

Sounds like one of the nonsensical regulations we have here in Germany😂

[@jeremyshearer3885]

I have a awd cross over myself and I sure in hell won’t take it down a road ment for rugged 4wd vehicles lol the off roading do is going down a gravel road in the country to see my friends lol

[@DesertRox]

The 15 inch rim seems like a throw back to the 80s where basically only trucks had 15 inch rims.

[@nicholassmith7048]

I believe all the criteria are a throwback to the 80s.

[@michelremillard3098]

A reasonable criteria so that a classic 4x4 can enjoy the trails also.

[@dcl97]

So, as a former NPS ranger, I think these rules are being misunderstood a bit. If your driving a Bronco sport down a trail they aren't going to stop you and issue a fine. The rules are so that when some idiot takes their Subaru down a trail they shouldn't and gets stuck, they have a specific violation they can cite for the fine. The broad terminology gives a ranger the ability to issue fines as nessesary on a case by case basis, or turn back individuals who clearly have no business being there.

[@sergeantschlumpf6368]

This comment is my favourite & makes the most sense.

[@mg7990]

Yes, but if an idiot with a Jeep Wrangler with summer tires gets stuck on the trail in winter, is it okay?

[@jessesimpson777]

​@@mg7990good point

[@TheYellowtom7]

What kind of Subaru are we talking about because if we’re talking about like an STI of course it shouldn’t be on that but like a forester wilderness outback wilderness something with X mode and decent specs to go off-road

[@briandambrosio2064]

That's not what happened though. The video starts with an example of a crosstalk driver being warned to drive on the trail and being threatened with fines and jail time. This isn't being used as a tool to enforce consequences, its being used as a tool to keep people off the trail.

[@mradamp125]

I’m going to push back on your Hummer recommendation at 11,000 pounds if it does get stuck, there’s not much that can get it unstuck.

[@myronhensel]

That’s not always how things work when getting stuck. Watch Matt’s offroad recovery.

[@mradamp125]

@@myronhensel haha I was gonna say unless you have a yellow banana !

[@nothingtoseaheardammit]

My Hummer does not get stuck. It has a hydraulic winch that can get it out of almost any situation I've put it in.

[@rjgaynor8]

@@nothingtoseaheardammit I was about to say this. The winch kits for hummers are cheap and bolt up quick.

[@angeloplanes8497]

Are we talking about the EV Hummer or older ICE Hummer?

[@ericaprilpoyer6281]

Wife & I just spent the weekend in our new 2024 Subaru Forester Wilderness at Big Bend NP. I installed skid plates (3) and used a departure skid plate on the trailer hitch receiver. I have been driving offroad for 35 years, which I feel makes a huge difference. Only trail we did not take was Black Gap, as I do not feel the Subi is capable enough (drove it previously in a Tacoma TRD Sport 4x4). We had zero issues whatsoever with the Subi on the trails. The best part was a dude in a Jeep Gladiator pulling up to pass us on Old Ore Rd, and asking if we had really just driven the same trail he had came from. The look on his face was priceless. Know YOUR capabilities, as well as your vehicle.

[@briandambrosio2064]

It's more about anti driving. They put in restrictions to limit the amount of people who qualify, then eventually shut the trail down citing lack of use/habitat degradation.

[@TGC1775]

Seen this locally.

[@norsefalconer]

Yeah, with the gov't one HAS TO read between the lines.

[@NoName-ml5yk]

Tin foil comment. It's actually to give Rangers a law they can use to cite people that have no business on that trail.

[@briandambrosio2064]

@NoName-ml5yk I would agree with you if this were a consequence. Something along the lines of if we have to tow you out it's a huge fine. In that way you leave people free to use the public land as they wish and take on the risks. But this is preventative, it's designed to prevent the use of off toad vehicles. And it is not in a vacuum. They just banned orvs from large tracts of Moab. Last year a national refuge banned drive on permits that had been issued to Surfcasters for driving on the Beach. There is a national push to curtail off roading.

[@TheEnglishmanCometh]

@@briandambrosio2064 maybe in 5 year TFL will only be off road testing 140k dollar 4runners and wranglers because those will be the only vehicles allowed on trails.

[@derrickschultz6871]

I love this argument. That Bronco sport is the grayest of vehicles. Or maybe its the subaru's.. it seems like clearance is the most important thing. But.. What about a lifted Ranger prerunner w/ rear limited slip and 35" tires, 14+ inches of travel, and tons of clearance. It looks great and gets past the guards but it doesnt have working 4wd. There just needs to be a set up entry that is slightly more challenging than the rest of the trail..a gatekeeper.

[@SkylarRace]

@@s.gibson9329 There's no question that Bronco Sport Badlands they're in would outperform any Subaru in technical rocky terrain. The drivetrain, chassis, and suspension are built much beefier on the Bronco sport. Not to mention the center-locker and better off-road drive modes on the Ford. Despite what you think Ford builds very reliable vehicles right here in the USA and employs more Americans than any car brand in the world doing it. They just build so many hundreds of thousands more vehicles that of course you're going to see more parts failures based purely on statistics. I've been a Subaru fan a long time and owned a couple Foresters, they offer standard AWD at a price point lower than pretty much everyone which is cool. But at least here in the Northeast they tend to rust and fall apart quicker than most other brands for a number of reasons I won't list due to comment length.

[@zanzabar4ky7]

Subaru since they moved to the ATS coupling system they cannot drive the rear without front slip. Pair that with the CVT and you are digging ruts at best, but you are going to have big issues if you cannot run up on everything. You will overheat the CVT too. And old Suabru with the VTD center diff or 4ACT center coupling (with a locking switch) will do great.

[@zanzabar4ky7]

@@s.gibson9329 onyx has it too and still overheat off-road.

[@poprdog]

I wouldn't touch a cvt with 10 ft pole

[@Drunken_Hamster]

Good luck teaching common sense to the government.

[@fscottgray9784]

You have to keep instructions simple for the public. I am glad they put out black and white rules to start with. They can be modified in time but it is a good start. It is costing a lot of money to rescue these vehicles from trails they should not be on. TFL is talking to the choir on this as most of us are car folks. The people who are causing the trouble just believe what a salesman tells them and do not do their own fact finding.

[@bigchimpin4215]

The black and white rules don’t follow the spirit of the law. People are gunna get dinged by old Johnny law for no reason.

[@plmn93]

It's not so much the rule I have a problem with, it's the consequences. Thousands of dollars and 6 months of jail time are a real possibility for a minor infraction. That is tyranny, pure and simple.

[@charleshicks3140]

Parks should make a small demo trail at the entrance to see what cars and trucks can be approved. If they don’t pass just tell them to not take certain trails

[@toportime]

Or perhaps have a graded system the you have to pass in your vehicle before you can take certain trails. I could support that.

[@OutdoorGirls7]

But an oldish school open diff 4x4 with low range qualifies, even though crossed up it would be stuck and spin one front and back tire…

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

Yet not old scoll enough to allow cars that can do it regardless of equipment... Like the model a.

[@yaboimax6356]

People making laws about things they have no understanding of? Color me surprised.

[@stronghold07ptx85]

I don’t think this is a fair assessment. Until recently the technology allowing advanced traction in all wheel drive vehicles was largely not there. When the policy was made awd systems didn’t have the more advanced traction management systems they have now. They are better now and they could probably update their policy. In general I feel like it should be the responsibility of the vehicle owner to know the capability of their vehicle, and be responsible for the consequences of their decisions. Because even built 4x4 can have breakdowns/failures and get stuck. Recovery of a 4x4 is gonna be easier than an awd vehicle though.

[@PantyDropper69]

Welcome to being a gun owner

[@volvo09]

It's likely CVT Subarus and single clutch Hyundai's getting into trouble and needing emergency services (help I'm stuck with my family and the tow truck can't get me!" that made them create a crappy law like this by lumping all AWD cars into the same category.

[@davep2945]

@@volvo09 No, if you actually watch recovery videos in various places out west it's usually people renting a variety of AWD's including sedans that because it has AWD they think can go anywhere. Subarus aren't anymore likely to get stuck because they have a CVT than any other similarly capable vehicle with a regular transmission. Any Subaru Wilderness model could do what they did in this video with the Bronco Sport and then some.

[@krover01]

​@@davep2945that's not saying much. They didn't do anything remotely difficult in this video.

[@kyleansley]

@TFL the Subaru wilderness edition models do have underbody protection as standard along with a specifically tuned version of the AWD system with dual x-mode. Its not just a lifted Subaru with no other upgrades like you led on. Technically it has a locker but instead of hardware based its software based. So blanket laws just don't cut it when we talk about modern vehicles.

[@shawnmurphy6657]

Subaru needs actual recovery points. I was very disappointed when I realized the Wilderness editions just have additional tow points. @TFL Not sure how "stock" skid plates are so important. They are available by Subaru, for those that actually go off road.

[@johnbriggs6203]

It's more about driver knowledge & skill. I've been off roading since a kid. And my '17 Outlander Sport has seen many trails in UT, AZ, NM, NV & CA. Ive pulled friends cars out of sand & ditches. Had people tell me my suv (crossover) was a 4x4, when it's only a FWD. Lol. Like I don't know my own vehicle. BUT... I knew the limits of my suv. And turned back when I knew it could get stuck on a trail.

[@davep2945]

If you want a blanket set of rules just tell people if they get stuck and the park service has to recover you then there's a $500 fine no matter what you're driving. If you're circumventing the trail because you don't think your vehicle will make it or you bypass the by pass then you also have a $500 fine to pay. Why should it matter if one is driving a 4WD or an AWD? If you have to be rescued the cost is the same.

[@wardw.]

It depends on when the rule was first written, the law cited in the letter was last amended in 1986. That makes the 15" rim and rest of the definition makes more sense.

[@chrislangstaff]

Your Dad's beef with Subaru really hurts videos like this one. The letter was about a Crosstrek, Subaru's are the quintessential soft-roader, and only just a mention of them at the end. Good vid otherwise, thx boys.

[@timwhynot]

I'm surprized the wilderness models were not mentioned. They have over 9 inches ground clearance, skid plates and lower gearing, although not a transfer case. And I think you guys have managed to test a few subarus.

[@vindemiate]

My Outback Wilderness has an added full suspension lift kit, BFG’s, and heavy duty skid plates front to back. It’ll offroad better than many of the vehicles mentioned.

[@wannabeangler]

I've seen many AWD vehicles stuck at Cape Hatteras National Seashore in the sand at the beaches. They always block entrance and exit ramps making it impassable for others until the tow trucks come or someone with a strap to yank them out. I think it's a good thing to finally fine them.

[@yaboimax6356]

I think that usually comes down to the drivers incompetence and not the vehicle though.

[@flight2k5]

I guarantee it’s not just was blocking the entrance

[@modmatt1]

@@yaboimax6356 That's certainly a part of it, drive incompetence, but I've seen it too close to the entry point - mostly Chevy Traverse and the like vehicles that the owners thought were capable, but far from it.

[@wannabeangler]

@@yaboimax6356 It's both. The vehicles can't make it through the sand. Not like hard pack sand at other beaches. Our sand is soft and vehicles sink.

[@holgerkuehn817]

On the other hand,I have never seen one vehicle in 37 years I live in Nevada got stuck out here .(Not to many people go out in the desert here around Vegas ,that what it always seems to me).

[@fireant1272]

Yes here in hawaii you have to have 4x4 low to go up to mauna kea it keeps the engine at a higher rpm while going down the huge mountain for more control breaking. My 2016 jeep Cherokee has a proper 4x4 low.

[@gordonmabey6978]

The PTU is technically a transfer case. This is more about the driver and not the vehicle.

[@SkylarRace]

They specify it must be a transfer case with 4X4 Low speed gear reduction.

[@MrAKhiker]

Great discussion guys, but with the rapidly changing “off road” vehicle market, it is impossible for a government agency to enforce. I would submit the problem is not the vehicles, but the drivers. Anyone who has been to a National Park recently has seen idiots with little or no off road skills or experience in very capable rigs needing rescue. The Parks have to account for them. Let’s come at this a different way and put the responsibility on the drivers. On all written Park materials, and the website, and at trailhead signs put the following disclaimer. “Any non-paved roads or trails in this park may require vehicles and driver skills that may exceed you or you vehicle’s capabilities. If you travel on off pavement surfaces in this park and require rescue or extraction, YOU WILL BEAR THE ENTIRE COST OF THE OPERATION INCLUDING DAMAGE TO THE TRAIL OR GOVERNMENT EQUIPMENT. Know you and your vehicle’s capabilities and carry emergency supplies and self extraction equipment.”

[@yaboimax6356]

Dang, the bots are going crazy on this video.

[@anthonyc1883]

For sure, lol. It's good to know that Tommy and Kase's video is the best one of some random hot chick's life. How effin' stupid.

[@dave3657]

If you take a ‘Corvette’ on an off road trail, then the owner should pay 100% of the recovery costs. And this just needs to be stated at the start of the trail. “You get stuck, you pay for removal.”

[@godwater]

4WD doesn't mean it's safe. A Jeep Rubicon slide out of road and hit a rock in Shafer Canyon Road while my AWD car is ok, it was raining. If the national park really want to limit it, they should also measure tire trend and pattern as well.

[@propertypreparedness6846]

TFL should write an open letter to the NPS. They would probably hire you guys to do all this, you’d be surprised.

[@MJ-fj9yv]

So what if they get stuck, just trade it in thru Caravana with pickup at the stuck grid coordinates 😂.

[@LionRunner]

IMO just follow the rules park services put out. If your vehicle is not 4WD "a sport utility vehicle (SUV) or truck with at least 15-inch tire rims and at least eight inches of clearance from the lowest point of the frame, body, suspension, or differential to the ground. Four wheel drive vehicles have a transfer case between the front and rear axles that locks the front and rear drive shafts together when four wheel drive is engaged." please turn back. There are plenty of off pavement roads not marked as 4WD high clearance. Keep your self, the machine and environment safe. This is a problem where people just can't obey the rules. If you don't have a 4WD vehicle and want to explore a 4wd trail please rent from a jeep rental place and you might even can consider a guide for a better and safer experience.

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

What about is Ford build a Mustang raptor? Litterly a mustang dunebuggy? Or you take your modded one? assuming the only thing it isn't is a truck or Uility.

[@Vlad_tyy]

What about Subaru Outback Wilderness??? It’s good off-road I tested myself and was amazed what it’s capable of!! I put off-road videos on KZbin you can check them out

[@daviddickson322]

BTW it's all national parks. State parks still vary. Big Bend states "You Will Need A High Clearance Four-Wheel-Drive (4WD) Vehicle A high clearance 4WD vehicle is defined as a SUV or truck type vehicle, with at least 15 inch tire rims or more, with a low gear transfer case, designed for heavier type use than a standard passenger vehicle, with at least 8 inches of clearance or more from the lowest point of the frame, body, suspension, or differential, to the ground, also including a means to mechanically power both, front and real wheels at the same time"

[@robertdavidbrenda]

Arches and canyonlands have trails that are extreme and ones that are not extreme. The trail the Subaru did that caused the letter is not extreme. Proof? He made it! Other trails would be impossible. One problem is that the park people group all 4x4 trails together. Another problem is normal dirt roads that used to be passable in sedans are not being maintained at all and are now becoming jeep trails. some extreme trails require modifications to even a top line Rubicon to successfully complete. Another problem is that the park service doesn't consider preparedness. Like the ability to air down, air up, lockers, tow points, tow straps, spare tires, off road tires, tire size, shovels, traction boards, winches, driver experience, whether the vehicle is yours or a rental, whether you are alone or in a group. My personal problem, being a Subaru driver, is getting any useful information from a ranger on road conditions so I can decide if a road ( not trail ) is suitable for my lifted Subaru with all terrain tires. They always just say " 4x4 high clearance" . If asked what is high clearance they don't have an answer. Btw, 8 inches is not enough for canyonlands trails and some require a front winch to get up high steep ledges.

[@zanzabar4ky7]

Subaru with ATS damage the trails. They cannot driver the rear without slip, so no modern subaru from the last 10 years should be allowed. You could I guess build an STi or CVT WRX since those have fancy center diffs, but I doubt you see that.

[@robertdavidbrenda]

Neither does a jeep or 4x4 pickup unless it has lockers.

[@1FiftyOverland]

That hummer didnt look to capable lol

[@bigmacdaddy1234]

Lol...and you don't even know how to spell 'too'. Now that is funny.

[@1FiftyOverland]

@@bigmacdaddy1234 wow, you really got me on that one.🙄

[@GATORADDAM]

Just as an example.... I've done the White Rim Trail twice. I would not go down Murphys Hogback without having low range. You would risk over heating the brakes and ending up a pile of stupidity in the canyon somewhere. In conclusion.... I hate rules, I hate authority. And although I don't agree with all of the criteria there are lot's of stupid people out there that need safety rules for their own protection and the protection of others. An all-wheel drive vehicle SHOULD NOT be allowed on any trail rated over a 3.

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

? What aboubt the BEVs and poorly marketed 4WDs vehicles? Like it was common topic a few years ago to make a video saying AWD and 4WD are sinomims... Like there are 4WD that are reslly AWDs and the reverse... Like I like rules when they make sense for the benefit of all.

[@whm304]

This is just crazy. Who cares if they get stuck? What if they are with a well prepared group and self rescue? Or, if they are dumb enough to go alone, they'll have a large recovery bill and the problem will sort itself out. What if at the start of each trail, they posted the flat rate recovery fee for each mile down that road from local tow companies? I bet there's a lot of people who would not go alone in a dinky unibody vehicle with no low range. Why does every government official think its there job to be our nanny? I know the park service and other agencies argument is that people get themselves in bad situations and then need rescuing. Back when satellite SOS and helicopter rescue wasn't a thing, only people who were truly prepared ventured off the pavement, whether in a vehicle or hiking. The problems used to sort themselves out when a push button rescue wasn't at your fingertips. Everyone knew if it went bad, they were on their own. Maybe if the Park Service went back to that, and every time they got a phone call from someone in the back country with a headache, told the citizens to figure it out themselves, then people would learn to better prepare and take personal responsibility for their safety.

[@jeffer1101]

Surprised you skipped the Subaru Wilderness vehicles (or maybe not, as I do know you guys had a falling out with Subaru many years ago). One of the most capable soft roaders out there.

[@kylebar724]

They no like because of CVT

[@jeffer1101]

@@kylebar724 lots of compact SUVs have CVTs. That's not why it was left out.

[@torinhoffman1667]

Had a Subaru and had low gear worked great in the mountain trail in Colombia South America

[@SkylarRace]

By low gear they mean a 4X4 transfer case with 4X4 Low which no Subaru has ever had.

[@AK-Brian]

Mostly true. In the US, '80s most 4x4 Subarus had transfer cases with separate low range gearing. There are more recent global models that also shipped with a dual range transmission (sans transfer case), but those were never sold in North America, unfortunately. Some people source them from their originally Japanese and Australian vehicles through companies like ADS to swap into US market cars, though.

[@NoName-ml5yk]

The #1 reason for this law is because lesser capable vehicles are much more likely to drive around the obstacles. Which means trails get wider and wider with cut offs everywhere. If you have wheeled in California you know what I'm talking about. Also, most rangers aren't going to ticket you unless you're being real destructive and even then you get a chance to plead your case to a judge.

[@cooperbarnes7808]

My old stock XJ cherokee doesn't meet that criteria. It only has 7.3 from the differential. My 2022 Kia Sportage has a locking center diff.

[@alanlillich6738]

Fantastic video, thank you!!! You said everything that needed to be said in the way it needed to be said. We have a 2023 Pilot Trailsport that we use to tow a 3500 lb travel trailer and for light to moderate roads in state and national parts. The three TFL videos about it helped a lot in making our choice.

[@1FiftyOverland]

Yall gotta gets these bots under control

[@edbrown2061]

It’s to keep idiots from getting in trouble when they think their AWD means they can go off roading. There a recent video I watched of a guy from Oregon or Washington going to Colorado and getting his AWD Chevy Traverse stuck way off highway and having to be rescued. The trail he was trying to go down was something lifted vehicles were built for. Meanwhile, he was blocking the trail for everyone else. You can see it under Justin King. It’s ridiculous what this guy was trying to do with his Traverse, all because it was an AWD.

[@terje5723]

The law is supposed to protect the parks, not the vehicles right? An unexperienced driver with a 4 ton electric hummer can create a disaster of a recovery operation. In general when capable 4x4 get into trouble its almost always more serious than when a non capable car gets stuck. This law really makes no sense. Would be good if you could get someone from the park service explain the rationale behind this law, and why they came up with these set of rules Anyways I suspect the reason this pops up is because of unexperienced drivers/tourists with little or no knowledge of what their car is capable of and where not to drive

[@kylebar724]

Yep. People who have done no research about off roading or their vehicles capabilities tend to ruin it because of marketing.

[@TheEnglishmanCometh]

Why not ban hiking because a lot of people go out unprepared and get lost, requiring rescue? If I pay taxes to maintain national park and government lands, I'm using them. Don't let bureaucracies that take your income tell you what you can and cannot do. You lose your freedoms that way.

[@kylebar724]

I imagine a helicopter search and rescue costs more than a vehicle recovery that can be found much easier.

[@lloydswartz7354]

This is such an overdue development. Now to hold vehicle manufacturers accountable for starting the nightmare of street cars off road.

[@robervin9107]

Most people don’t understand this stuff glad your explaining it but they still won’t get it. Moral of the story do your full research before going on trails. Read the signs. Thank you to fearless leaders and brothers kase and tommy Hopefully this helps others.

[@zachlafond2652]

Who cares. Just use common sense. If you take grandma's Buick LeSabre up into the mountains and get hung up on the rocks just call grandma back at the nursing home to help get a recovery team up there to remove it. She's got nothing better to do except play bingo.

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

The crew at TFL are hardcore car enthusiasts. I’m a car nerd myself and they got all the details correct on the non 4WD approved list, right down to which vehicles have twin clutch rear differentials. 👏.

[@SkylarRace]

It's twin clutch transmissions / gearboxes they're talking about, they overheat at low speed with wheel spin. There's no such thing as a twin clutch rear differential lol.

[@JonDZ_Adventuring]

@@SkylarRace The Ford Bronco Sport and Chevy GM have GKN twin clutch rear differentials. The Hondas have a Rear drive unit which is technically has 3 clutches. These systems are located on the rear axle.

[@Michael-1337]

​@@SkylarRacethere is such a thing as twin clutch differentials and Ford has them in several vehicles. In fact those Ford's have three clutches. One operates the PTU and two on the rear differential.

[@generallyfinefx]

I hate the marketing used for AWD vs 4x4 sometimes. The transfer case used in the base model 4x4 Jeep Grand Cherokee is marketed as full-time 4x4 without low range, but the same transfer case in the Durango is marketed as AWD.

[@Michael-1337]

This! The marketing terminology is really annoying. Since there is no industry standard for 4x4 or AWD. I drive a jeep Cherokee trail hawk that is supposedly trail rated with a rear locker and decent tires. It is now banned from trails because it doesn't fit their technical definition of requiring a transfer case with low range despite first gear being on par with "low range" gear sets in transfer cases.

[@6XGate]

You would hope they don't have an issue with AWD SUVs that actually have 4WD like AWD 4Runners, Land Cruisers/LX, and Prados/GXs which have a Hi&Lo 4WD mode.

[@militanttriangle2326]

The criteria makes no sense if you actually you know, moderately drive on more primitive roads. I lived at the foot of the cascades and while I had an 4x4 ExTerra forever and it's still in the family, the number of folks going into the cascades with awd on some pretty garbage forest, logging, National Forest roads, WA DNR roads, etc etc, is super common. They can handle alot. The issue here is people that don't know what they are doing. The same person getting stuck in a rented AWD is the same person getting stuck in a 4x4. But the penalties are insane for the "crime". Honestly, Congress gave WAY to much leeway on the criminal code for bored rangers to bone people with. And some Federal courts will run with in. SO it s duel issue. CAR/DRIVER issue and folks can get nailed to hard with criminal charges. In the end, these NP roads are generally graded and maintained excellent roads. Its so obviously a driver problem and not a vehicle problem. But also an NP admin problem when you read this bulletin. It is not in line with reality. Most of these NP roads are GRADED like every year.

[@BDavid760]

I have a Subaru crosstalk wilderness. While you're right on the attachment points I would highly recommend it for off road capabilities...I've had mine in the backroads of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and Colorado and never had a problem. Even pulled a Rav4 adventure outta sand with it. If I can get my front tires on it then I can get over it.

[@getlosttoday4045]

Anything ev needs to stay away from the forest as they can be a fire Hazzard.

[@big_neptune_g]

I think you guys should find a way to try the new Subaru Crosstek and the Subaru Forester, they should be... fine. If they still suck when driving off-road we would be aware of it.

[@jediguy634]

Sounds like the parks need a more granular system to identifying how hard the trail is similar to how OnX rates trail's. Heck even say a 3 level scale would be helpful: Level 1 = Any AWD vechile, 2 = AWD "trail Trim" with trail rated tires OR traditional 4x4 low range with trail rated tires, Level 3 = Lockable 4WD with transfer case and lockable rear diff.

[@bsenka]

Even Jeep’s Trailhawk designation is not the same for every vehicle. The Cherokee and Grand Cherokee have legitimate off-road features like a true low gear, lockers, skid plates, etc. The GC even has adjustable suspension. The Renegade, on the other hand, is OK on moderate trails, but you wouldn’t want to go mud bogging with it.

[@fredgarvin7033]

I don't own an AWD but find this needs to be addressed and POSTED on any trail that people can not take AWD on. Many off road roads,trails are easy to do in 2wd , AWD would crush them that are labeled 4wd. It is unfair to just attack them when they are very capable for simple to mild off roading and can be built to take harder stuff. I will add this, many many many "4wd" vehicles have open diffs wich means one front and one rear are the only thing that turns. Last thing, I own a Doge Mega cab with open dif , a Tacoma TRD Off road and a Gladiator Rubicon.

[@951media]

It isn’t really true that you “could face jail time” for driving an awd vs a 4x4. That being said, if it was true, you should be outraged that you live under such an oppressive totalitarian government, instead of arguing amongst your fellow citizens about various vehicle capabilities.

[@gofetchdesignllc2235]

Kinda surprised it wasn't mentioned that 4x4 or 4 wheel drive doesn't mean all 4 are spinning like an AWD vehicle. They HAVE to have lockers. Otherwise its more or less staggered 2wD

[@robertdavidbrenda]

If the goal is to save the parks from having to rescue people, then consider that almost all vehicles rescued off the trail in canyonlands, arches, Moab, and sand hollow are Real 4x4 vehicles. I see this as a preamble to closing down all trails. Like they do for hiking trails in the summer time.

[@iwontliveinfear]

This is bupkis. There is more than 1 type of AWD. For example Subaru's AWD system works like 4WD until 1 or more wheels lose traction, then it redistributes power to the wheels with the most traction. Which makes it safer for off-road driving than 4WD.

[@chrisflores4788]

I think the Park Service is going by a more traditional viewpoint, where a 4x4 is based on a RWD body on frame, and AWD is based on FWD unibody. There are obviously exceptions to every rule, and the most important factor are the drivers and their experience on these types of trails. Self recovery is underestimated by many drivers

[@valerierayburn813]

Make it simple and avoid all the traffic and problems caused by these type vehicles and side by sides simply require a solid front axle. Few if any are going to take their $100,000 dually out Canyonland trails.

[@seanclark5613]

If the newer Volvo XC90 is half as good as the stock first gen. I had, it needs to be on this list. It ran circles around my buddies Tacoma TRD Pro in the mud. Tires have alot to do with off road capabilities as well.

[@toportime]

That title sound like who ever came up with it doesn't have a clue. The only difference in AWD and 4WD is AWD is always sending torque to all 4 tires, while 4WD is part time.

[@AstroJeep]

Try doing Elephant Hill at Canyonlands National Park in a AWD vehicle. It is not going to be a good day for you.

[@georgesgranger6362]

What they forget is that AWD vehicles, like the Land Rover Discovery 2, uses their traction control and stability control to maintain power for off roading, and they work better because its instantaneous and has been tested already

[@getlosttoday4045]

So many say 4x4 when they are awd!

[@samuelbutterworth4303]

I've had Wranglers, Broncos and Blazers. I've had AWD vehicles. Some roads are ONLY FOR the former. Watch some testing videos of AWD and true 4WD vehicles and you will see most AWD ones fail on some pretty basic courses while the 4WD ones go up easily. AWD ones can easily overheat their drive train clutches. Go watch Matt's Off Road Recovery videos where he shows that either group can get stuck but for the 4WD it is driver incompetence or vehicle damage that is the problem. For AWD it is the driver being stupid taking a vehicle where it shouldn't be.

[@greggv8]

There's that 2004-2009 Toyota Prius that was entered in the Gambler 500 and it finished. Prep on the Prius consisted of installing special higher ground clearance Auris suspension parts made for the Russian market, disabling traction control, 29" chunky off road tires on Subaru wheels, sawing off the lower half of the front bumper cover then fitting a heavy aluminum skidplate. There's an article on Jalopnik about it. Who can forget the original Austin Mini and its long history of success in brutal off-road rally competition?

[@JeffreyAdams-v9d]

Sever the communications your vehicle has to the company first. This is my vehicle and those pricks are not going to tell me what I can do or not do. If I want to drive off a cliff I will and won't be paying a fine for it.

[@dwayne7356]

Did I miss why Subaru wasn't listed? I think they also need to define what is "off road". I am not an off road user nor an expert but back in my youth I had a 1978 F250 4x4 with over sized tires. I learned that truck had enough power to get me into trouble real fast. In fact the tires that I had on it would dig themselves in to the mud and sand if I got stuck so I had to be very careful. My 2021 Subaru Ascent AWD has the same ground clearance as my 2008 F150 2x4. Neither has "off road" tires. The Subaru has front and rear towing hooks which my F150 does not. It has Vehicle Dynamic Control and the X-mode systems which per the manual is for slippery, snowy, icy, off-road conditions. I did not seek out an AWD, it was just how Subaru sells them and the towing capability equaled my F150 which is what I needed. I consider that both vehicles can drive in snow up to about 6-8 inches, or off road in sand, dirt, or gravel. I'll take my Subaru over my F150 for icy conditions for more control and the ability to start from a stop. I would not drive either vehicle (even if I had the correct tires) on deep loose sand like a beach nor on a steep, rocky, ungraded, unlevel, hill or road. I have neither the skill, or the money for recovery and repairs, nor the need to do it. I would drive both of them "off road" through a flat wet field or other ungraded relatively flat as in smooth between tire ruts which is not paved. I'd even drive it "off road" on a road up or downhills. If I did that everyday, I would change the tires. So, what defines NPS "off road trails"?

[@hooptietime4427]

I secretly hope the Subaru snub never ends for you guys. I don’t know why but I find it hilarious when you point it out.

[@seankonzman58]

In New Jersey, they require you have permit. To get the permit, they look over vehicle and recovery equipment (there is a required list) and tell you yes or no.

[@christinehammack7905]

I can see the rules being needed for trils like Elephant Hill. Most of the vehicles you said should be included could not safely do that trail, it has gotten much harder and has a few places where real lockers, AT or MT tires are needed. It is very remote and getting stranded is not good, especially if you are blocking the trail and cause others to become stranded because the vehicle was no capible of navigating the trail and should not have been there. I suggest doing Elephant Hill in a Landcruiser or Rubicon with lockers so you can see why they need some kind of rules for trails like that.

[@Truth-Release]

Bronco sport doesn't actually have a locker because it doesn't have a transfer case, Instead, it uses a clutch to simulate a locker. The problem here is when that clutch gets overworked/over heated, it actually disables the simulated locker which would result in getting stuck in most cases. I fully agree with the park's rules, dont go buy a crossover and call it an off roader, then call for help when you get stuck, hurt, or roll of a mountain. If you're going to go off roading then purchase a proper off roading vehicle, or stay home period. Im sure the professionals who actually spend unnecessary time and money rescuing idiots who bought some marketing scheme know what they're talking about. The park rangers are not in the business of sparing people feelings for the sake of clicks, they actually want to save lives.

[@Syock44]

Why does Subaru need to work with you? Do you not buy the vehicles for your reviews?

[@backwoodstherapy]

They do buy long term test vehicles, but many of their vehicles they test in the shorter term are loaners from other brands. Toyota will give them a new Land Cruiser for a week, or Chevy will give them a new Trail Boss for 3 days. During that time, they'll put it through its paces. They'll take it on an off road trail, they'll tow, do an mpg loop, etc. Subaru hasn't done this for years. Idk why. I think I remember TFL saying they pissed off Subaru years ago with some legit criticisms of a vehicle and Subaru has refused to work with them again. Or that might just be my inference from all the hints they've dropped over the years.

[@peregrine2361]

They have bought Subaru’s in the past to test….they just can’t buy everyt model. They need press vehicles or test vehicles to be loaned to them.

[@kylebar724]

​@@backwoodstherapyI honestly think more happened between them than we think IMO

[@generallyfinefx]

There was a not great Subaru review a few years ago, and ever since Subaru refuses to provide them vehicles to test.

[@peregrine2361]

@@kylebar724 I think they said they scratched one up or damaged one....or maybe ya, they gave it a harsh review and Subaru got their panties in a knot

[@999benhonda]

They are praising grocery getters, driving them far more carefully than most people would and acting like awd has any business being off a pavement or a packed dirt road. Low articulation vehicles with 4wd that relies heavily on brakes to transfer power simply aren't the same as vehicles built to go offroad. Most of the suv vehicles they mentioned come with offroad goodies for marketing purposes, not practical ones.

[@erichurst2496]

I disagree with the basis of this video having owned 2 Subaru legacy’s. 3 outback’s and still own a stock jeep TJ but that is all debatable. What I never understand is taking your $50,000 car with 48 outstanding payments due off road, Off-road is for your 25 year old TJ that…if something goes bad….you can scrape the vin numbers off and move on with your life.

[@victorybulldog4085]

You can get a 2wd Z71, TRD, FX4, so going by that alone is not enough. Even some Wranglers used to come in 2wd. I think overall the commercials some manufacturers are putting out are a problem and making some think the vehicle they buy can do much more than it really can....or at least should. Just watch any recovery channel and you will see plenty of examples.

[@bluewater7211]

glad I have a range rover. they can try to argue but we all know it's the king SUV off road. it's a all wheel but has all the lockers , front center and rear . it has all the off road settings. hill decent mode. 15 inches of center ground clearance on active air suspension .. again it's a 510hp range rover so I'd giggle and say just that. also stop trying to make cars that look like they can go off road go off road. like a bronco . if you want a bronco off road get one from the 80s . that truck is a truck and is one of the best trucks ever made. the 80s one.

[@LongRangeDesertGroupX]

My personal experience at Big Bend NP was I had my Jeep Gladiator and I was stuck behind a Camry and a Tahoe who were both driving 3mph because of the rough roads. I was able to finally get past them and continue my journey but I just felt like you shouldn’t take a vehicle out to these types of roads/trails if you’re afraid of damage or a rough ride.

[@longboat4726]

How about 1wd? Most dirt bikes are 1wd and will put any 4x4 to shame on these offroad trails. 😅 Heck, even my brother's 1984 Honda 185s three-wheeler (technically 2wd) will put most 4wds to shame. And it has less than 7 inches GC. 😅😅 Just funnin' with u guys.

[@helmet600]

Wait, the cherokee trailhawk does have a transfer case. It's just not located where a traditional transfer case would be.

[@YeOldeTraveller]

That was a surprisingly good piece on this issue. Much better than another TFL video I just watched. The NPS criteria are too rigid.

[@SpinningSpur]

My Baja bug Laughs at your rules! Laughs from its mountain top.

[@chainsawcharl1e677]

I work for the USFS and was given the choice between a Bronco Sport and a Crosstrek Sport for my work vehicle. I leaped at Crosstrek. The Bronco Sport is just a rugged-looking Escape, which is what I just got rid of.

[@FearlessTrailhawk]

Nice ckickbait title guys! But i'm with you guys on the clearance clause "...or any part..." as that disqualifies most independent suspension, and even some solid axles due to shock mounts ect. Umm, what vehicles that have an actual low range that the sport does better than? And isn't it more like clutch based elsd for the center/rear...if i'm not mistaken, not a traditional locker. Lack of low range burns out clutch packs. Period. And no, that is not a moderate trail, that is a dirt road by most opinions. You even contradict yourselves later in the video saying they can handle 'light' trails "like this one". Canyonlands only listed what, 6 trails on their restricted list. Not all the trails. Trails on which they keep having to recover these vehicles. That bronco sport you are sitting in would not survive Elephant Hill. 100%. And you fail to understand that these are the types of vehicles that keep needing recovered. That is why they are cracking down on it now, those recoveries cost the park money. They also generally need more wheelspeed to do things, which causes more erosion, and they will try to bypass harder stuff, which causes off traul erosion and degradation. Same reason many offroad clubs require 4low to attend their rides. You are right, the electric vehicles don't have low range, but they do have the torque to get the job done, many awd simply do not. I think the odd wheel size is to restrict use from quads ect, as the rims are usually smaller. I don't know why i wrote all of this, y'all aint gna read this far...lol...i guess i'm just bored at work today.

[@ianbelletti6241]

4wd does more than lock the front and rear wheels to the same speed. It locks the differentials so that all wheels spin at the same speed. All wheel drive uses 2 standard differentials which, under certain conditions, can cause wheels to free spin while the wheels in contact with the surface don't rotate. Transferring from 2WD to AWD is not the same as transferring to 4WD. AWD was designed as a compromise to 4WD in order to help with slick conditions on road surfaces without creating excessive wear on the tires during travel on standard roads. AWD is designed so that it can be always engaged without problems. If the AWD vehicle cannot lock the differentials it cannot qualify as 4WD no matter how capable it is. The reason some park services are so stringent is because of the conditions of those trails and the fact that AWD owners often act like their vehicles are more capable than they are. This comes down to a misunderstanding of how the differentials work. Under equal contact a standard differential supplies power to both wheels but allows the outer wheel in the turn to spin faster limiting tire wear. But that design has a drawback. One wheel in full contact while the other in near zero contact causes all the power to be transferred to the wheel in near zero contact. That's why 4WD vehicles lock the differentials. This forces equal power transfer to all wheels making all wheels rotate at the same speed no matter the conditions.

[@jerroldshelton9367]

I don't think the regulation in question needs to be revised, even though it was obviously drafted in the 1980s. The regulation is vague, in part, to give Park Rangers some room for discretion in enforcement. There is "the spirit of the law" and "the letter of the law" and the idea here is that Park Rangers will enforce with consideration for "the spirit of the law." I doubt I'd have much of a problem with Park Rangers in Canyonlands N.P. while driving my 2015 Renegade Trailhawk. I've been out there twice with it, had casual contact with Park Rangers both times, and both times, that contact remained in the "casual" zone. Now, if I had the manual transmission Crosstrek out there that my wife used to commute in, which I wouldn't do because it wasn't geared low enough for my taste, I'd expect to get at least a "talkin' to" . Or, if I tried to run a Nissan Rogue..... I'm planning on going back to Canyonlands N.P., and planning on going in my Renegade Trailhawk as I have done the last couple of times. If, for some reason, a Park Ranger does take issue with that, then I'll just do the trip in my CJ 2A the next time.

[@rinbine2713]

Liars... Have you ever overheated with your Hyundai XRT model? You haven't, right? Especially with the recent models... And you went through the mountains with the Hyundai Santa Fe XRT. What a liars.

[@VegasGuy1975]

In my opinion, this is a very flawed law. For example, my Jeep Liberty Limited has better off-road capabilities than my crew cab Superduty 4 wheel drive truck. One is light, nimble and a fantastic turn radius for navigating trails. The other is an 8000 pound truck that has tons of power, but would just sink in larger mud puddles. I would think a better law would be based around the driver’s ability rather than the vehicle’s perceived capabilities.