The Deprogram Episode 38: Boug…borj…wtf is class?

[@thedeprogram9999]

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[@raven_g6667]

Hakim was lying about hearing his computer. He was hearing the voices again. The liberals in the walls.

[@-Zevin-]

I would watch that movie, "The Liberal In The Wall" 2am, trying to sleep, a faint scratching sound, suddenly a voice " You just have to vote democrat, it's the lesser of two evils" True horror.

[@raven_g6667]

@@-Zevin- And then Hillary Clinton pops up holding a machete and a red balloon with Freddy Krueger fingers blaming that she got drowned on Bernie Sanders.

[@noname-bu1ux]

"Hakim, crush Russia. They're weak now. You'll never have the chance again. Support war!"

[@danubeisreallypeculiarrive7944]

@@raven_g6667 After that Joe Biden pops up with his new police budget. Then you hear a woman's voice whisper:Don't come.

[@superbeltman6197]

5:41 “The colloquial definition is the one you’ll hear most often” -Hakim

[@kapapamahchakwew3866]

Excellently said, class solidarity is very important. As someone working construction/ industrial jobs one thing I always heard my coworkers say about retail/ food workers is they should get a "real job." Rather than asking the same of the owner class

[@Darloss9508]

I worked as a janitor in my uni days, it helped me a lot understand their struggle, holy fuck the money their hiring agencies make is ludicrous, while w3 got paid minimum wage and only worked on contracts(no permanent hire, so you re always scared and stressed), no full time job, you only get part time and are forced to get a second part time just to work full 8 hours, but then you get no benefits and no overtime. My current job has a lot of benefits, but I think this kind of benefits are just bribes for the "educated" to never share their education with the less fortunate and keep seeing themselves as superior or whatever. Cringe system. My feet used to hurt permanently, I never had more than 5h sleep since I had to work separate hours with 2 or 1 hour in between. Also commuting was very hard.

[@bertbaker7067]

I'm an electrician IDK if it's me spouting leftist propaganda to anyone at work who will listen or a wider change in people's attitudes, but it seems more and more guys are agreeing that *every full-time job should pay a living wage.*

[@hoboroadie4623]

Petites Lumpen. I suddenly inherited some petite cash and a tiny plot of land. I tried explaining to my son that I wanted to bring a helper into the situation, and that I intended to make this person a partner and part-owner of the operation and the real estate with the intention that they should be able to buy out the property deed with their share of the profit. Stupid f lost his shit about this, and couldn't even listen to the idea. Takes after his mother. 😿

[@indecipherable22]

1:07:44 The long awkward pause after Yugopnik says “cut that” LMAO

[@CraigKeidel]

WE DON'T TALK ABOUT THE AWKWARD SILENCE

[@petrosstefanidis6396]

This podcast is at least 50% concentrated power of will, for example.

[@scottweber5767]

The comparisons of "independent" workers who don't independently own their MoP production to feudal peasants is rather striking. Like the gig worker or KZbinr, the peasant had compared to the wage labourer considerable freedom in how they went about their work, but ultimately they're completely subject to the owner of the platform/land.

[@peanuttasty247]

Yanis Varoufakis referred to this as "technofeudalism" if I remember correctly.

[@Ajente02]

On the last question mentioned by JT about nitpicking exceptional cases (i.e. "working class people investing in stocks or renting property"), people subjected to liberal ideology (the predominant ideology in most of our countries) tend to individualize any kind of systemic analysis. They'd get to the level of asking if the son of a bourgois industrial owner, who have a wage job in the service industry, is a working class or a bourgeois (when such son obviously could still stop working and live well under daddy's wallet). They seem to forget that scientific class analysis is about *social relations* of production, not individual static socioeconomic positions. Any subtle differences between individuals composing a social class don't affect the general behaviour or interests of such class.

[@Laembort]

As a dedicated sink pisser I pull open the curtains and score a hole in one into the sink drain with perfect pressure. That's the benefit of kegels.

[@theostalgist]

Boug… borj... burg… Bourg… We are the bourgeoisie. Lower your income and surrender your surplus value. We will add your economic and financial distinctiveness to our own. Your culture will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.

[@ΒασίληςΒλάχος-τ3κ]

-the Zuckerborg 2020

[@spiderwrist]

Commenting for the algorithm: I started listening for the politics but I stayed for the homoerotic banter. You 3 bring me joy. ^__^

[@fun_ghoul]

Wash your hands. Eww.

[@spiderwrist]

@@fun_ghoul I take it you aren't here for the homoerotic banter then?

[@fun_ghoul]

@@spiderwrist I'm here for it as much as the next hu-mon, but...I guess it doesn't make me feel like it makes you feel! 😂

[@spiderwrist]

@@fun_ghoul lol, I think you're reading more into my comment than I meant. I just like the banter and their humour.

[@fun_ghoul]

@@spiderwrist Twice I tried to make a joke, twice you didn't get it. Must be me. Hmph.

[@plb863]

Been watching hakim since 2019, absolutely love how informative and helpful everyone on this show it 😊

[@louiswemple3940]

The way I see it the labor relations of KZbin are actually extremely feudal in nature. You are essentially feudal artisans with KZbin acting as your patron. And much like artisans in a feudal society this arrangement can be highly lucrative for famous KZbinrs but ultimately the feudal lord (KZbin) owns the means of production and controls pretty much every aspect of the interaction. Actually a LOT of the internet functions in a highly feudal manner when you start thinking about it.

[@fun_ghoul]

Meh. It's basically like a flea market. Is that feudal? 🤔

[@louiswemple3940]

@@fun_ghoul hmm, sort of? I guess it’s complicated. Yes our system is ultimately capitalist and so are these labor relations but also something like a flea market or youtube reflects similarities to a feudal understanding of labor.

[@CraigKeidel]

Yep, that happened when the daily-use Internet got centralized into about 6 sites. Sure you've still got your niche forums and your DeFed but most folks are happy to stay on the FB/YT/TT/Reddit etc sphere

[@SMT-ks8yp]

Well, you own at least some of the means of production: your camera, your computer and software and maybe the stuff you show in your videos, unless, of course, you also rent these. But the fact that KZbin forces you to produce certain type of content (get lots of views, no matter how) to get money from it is still true.

[@stugeh]

im just here to boost the algorithm. Heard it already on the patreon. you too can have this amazing privilege. Give the boys some dough.

[@shanefoster2132]

26:40 it would seem to me that the closest analogy would be a vendor at a convention. But at this convention each vendor is tracked to see how much traffic their stall gets and when there is enough people visiting they start putting signs in the aisle ways with advertisements by your booth and give you some of the ad money. But some aisles get more money from ads than others. Aisles where financial vendors are get a lot of ad money. Political aisle ways where the vendors are from a leftist or communist prospective get no money from ads as the convention runners want to respect their ideology. Lol

[@salvi92]

Im finally on ep 38 people should watch the deprogram such intresting discussions the 3 really work well together ☮💜

[@morganqorishchi8181]

Yugopnik trolling his friends by putting things in the document with their notes and trying to get them to say something has youngest brother energy. IDK if he's the youngest but he's got the spirit.

[@hoboroadie4623]

Really alters the perception of what passes for reality, doesn't it? One of my Sisters and I are definitely the young ones. My older Brother and her older Sister are reactionary assholes that focus on dollars night and day. We are trying to be Human Beings, rather than Human Doings. Choices.

[@Ajente02]

21:05 - 25:55 On the question of the class condition of KZbinrs, as well as many other independent/autonomous workers, liberal professionals, individual bussines-owners, self-employed, freelancers, whatever you might call them... I think Lenin had a great concept to encompass them (and I tend to use it quite often when talking about class analysis, and it has resulted great): *semi-proletariat.* In Lenin's time, it used to refer to small peasants who, despite having a plot of land they worked themselves, couldn't produce enought to live out of it the entire year, so they also sold their labour seasonally to bigger peasants or to industrial bourgeois in the city. In our modern capitalist situation, a semi-proletariat is anyone who, despite having very small means of production who they work themselves (like a camera, a microphone, and a computer in the case of a KZbinr; or a canvas, brushes, and painting in the case of an artist...), are unable to adquire and expand reproduction of capital enough to sustain out of it the whole time (furtherless to buy workforce from another person), and thus are most of the time suplementing their income with either half-time/seasonal work, or charity (donations). In this way: - *Proletarians* get their main source of income as *wage,* obtained through their own direct labour over another person's property; - *Semi-proletarians* get their main source of income as *commission,* obtained through their own direct labour over their own small property and another person's property; - *Petit bourgeois* get their main source of income as *profit,* obtained through their own direct labour and other people's labour over their property; - *Industrial bourgeois* and *financial capitalists* get their main source of income as *profit* and *interest,* obtained through other people's labour over their property; - *Landlords* get their main source of income as *rent,* obtained through other people's labour over other people's property under their physical or virtual control; - *Lumpens* get their main source of income as *loot,* obtained through illegal or paralegal means by leeching/extracting other people's sources of income (as they're not actually conected to productive relations in any meaninful way). The description that Yugopnik made on the relations between KZbinrs and KZbin/Google/Alphabeth, however, reminded me a lot of the social relations existent between serfs and feudal lords, or between landowners and rentiers. But I'd disagree on calling autonomous workers as "serfs", due to very important characteristics the later lacks and the former don't (like, for example, a KZbinr isn't necessarily "tied" to the platform of KZbin as directly as serfs were tied to the feudal lord's lands; and the surplus extraction in KZbin is arranged by an impersonal contract and mediated through money, while serfs gets their surplus extracted directly and in kind, with no contractual arrangement nor monetary mediation). You could make an argument linking semi-proletarian and semi-feudal conditions to both KZbinrs and the small peasants Lenin described on his early writtings... but it could probably lead to wrong and ahistorical conclusions.

[@fun_ghoul]

A YouYuber does not own their MOP. This is a dangerous bourgeois delusion. YTers are badly paid subcontract employees of YT. That's it.

[@Ajente02]

@@fun_ghoul Most KZbinrs are the owners of the microphones, cameras, computers, editing softwares, and recording sets they use to create their videos. The only thing they don't own is the distribution platform (just like most semi-proletarians today, like gig economy workers, who own their vehicles but not the delivery/taxi platform). One could certainly argue their relationship with KZbin is the one of a subcontracted entity; but that doesn't tell you what their class character is (there are subcontracted people who are totally bourgeois, just like they are bourgeois KZbin channels with dozens or even hundreds of employees), and oftentimes ignore the petty differences between the KZbin contract and most subcontract work (KZbinrs aren't commissioned to do anything, they do their videos on their own will - whenever, however, and about whatever topic they desire to do).

[@fun_ghoul]

@@Ajente02 Also, WRT being "commissioned", you have a funny way of reversing it! YT commissions people every goddamn day. You say they don't because they don't force you to talk about a specific thing? Well...how about talking violent revolution against the you-know-whos? Oh yeah...demonetized. Palestine? Demonetized. Ukrainian Nazis? Biden's worsening Parkinson's? Justin Trudeau as Aladdin? Demon-demon-demonetized! Do you get it now? You have to own the WHOLE means of production, or you own fuck all. Jesus Christ.

[@augustinus5877]

49:50 Yugopnik has been deeply scarred by corporate environment.

[@shimmy1177]

36:00 for that legendary quote

[@Goat_gamering]

Hakim saying petty bourgosie instead of petite bourgosie every single time:

[@YenRestherac]

French is useless tho🤭 Petty = petit(e) (Jokes, I'm a francophone😂)

[@SINISTERsmile64]

Excellent episode as always!

[@helenahrebeljanoviccipras]

i usually pee as part of my pre-shower prep. BUT, if i feel like peeing during the shower, i will just pee then and there, i won't wait to get out, especially if i am washing my hair cause it takes some time for the conditioners and the peelings i do when i wash my hair. then you just wash the thighs and the tub off as you would either way. i find it better and cleaner than waiting and then peeing in the toilet. also, a real communist shouldn't be scared of a little pee-pee in the shower. how are we going to fight the fascist if we're afraid of a little pee-pee? good practice to be pee-pee resilient is to change the diapers of your nephews, they will sometimes pee on you without remorse. added benefit is that you can then say to them 'i cleaned your ass when you were young' at family gatherings as real aunties always do.

[@PetitPoneyDuVercors26]

I do the same, since I dye my hair purple I have to make masks with some color in it often and lot care on my hair so I won't restrain from peeing since I'm going to wash everything anyways x) I work in a nursing home, so pee in the shower is not something nasty for me, that's the contrary, water is better than damn toilet paper, I always pass a wipe of wet dispensable fabric that we have to clean folks then I dry with a towel each time I bring an old person to the toilets, paper don't clean x) I'm fine with all body fluids, that helps, I'm often joking with the ladies it makes it easier for them to release themselves since they're less stressed out Pee isn't dirty by itself, the problem is the maceration, water up and dry well then a bit of baby powder to prevent skin problems (with the sweat and pee...) and it's fine, bit of special thick cream to shield the butt skin too That like putting powder sugar and cream icing on a cake, that's what I say to them when they're open to humor, with a cliché southern accent like a famous cook on tv here in France that is host to a sweet pastry competition show (we have lot of tv shows about food yes) I always try to make them comfortable 😉

[@nobody8328]

I've worked with pets for decades. I've lost track of how many times ive been peed on by excited puppies and incontinent older pets. And occasionally by a really, really angry cat! 😆 Heck, I've found little poops in the pocket of my scrub top after I got home. It is what it is. 🤷🏻 Idg why folks are so weirded out by peeing in the shower. You're already standing in running water and soap, how difficult can it be to get clean?

[@JJ-ix9zt]

I don't know if you guys take suggestions here, but here are some books that would be interesting to have transcribed (do they have to be out of print?): some of the works of phlekanov, arghiri emanuel, gramsci, C.L.R James. Cool would be works from former or present AES which are our of print or even untranslated (even though the latter is a something more for the future or so)!

[@bertbaker7067]

Solidarité

[@Pharry_]

56:07 Okay SO I'm autistic and one of my special interests is language and etymology and such. So this sentence made me think of that topic and yeah it lines up and so I'm going to info dump. Apologies in advance. For example, the language of the Brythonic Celts who existed before the Anglo-Saxon migration into Britain continued to exist as late as a few hundred years ago, contrary to what is commonly taught about British history. The Brythonic languages, however, were commonly spoken by the lower class, and so these languages were disregarded and the lower class was assimilated into Anglo-Saxon culture. Another example, also in England, was the Norman invasion, which brought an end to Old English and gave way to Middle English. French Romance words were brought into common use because the Norman nobility spoke mostly French. When a native English speaker reads or hears Latin, it subconsciously feels regal, sophisticated, and just generally kinda cool. But when reading or hearing German and Dutch, they sound simple, sometimes goofy in their similarity to crude English. Upon digging deeper, most English words of germanic origin are seen as simple or common words, like "big", "funny", or "northern", and romance words are more sophisticated, like "large", "comedic", or "boreal". This is, as foreshadowed earlier with the subtlety of a Howitzer strike, a direct result of the romance words being spoken by the Norman elite. Anyways, forgive the rant, my autism instincts got triggered and I decided it was time to info dump. Lovely podcast, by the way! Love hearing the nuanced discussions about leftist theory punctuated by deez nuts jokes. Keep up the good work!

[@delilahswan4496]

"This world’s full of challenges Some are big and some are small War, greed, pollution Might take some time to solve ’em all But if a long march starts with just one step There’s one I’d like to mention If you live with your nostrils open Perhaps it’s come to your attention You may be fighting for freedom All the night and day But when you come back home Someone’s bound to say “You wanna change the world, man Believe me, I do, too But in the meantime is it required That we live in a fucking zoo” If the revolution starts at home Then let me tell you this Stand up for your rights, boys But sit down to piss"

[@recmuralartcommission1993]

Is this an original?

[@delilahswan4496]

@@recmuralartcommission1993 nope

[@deptusmechanikus7362]

Cheeki-breeki and into revolution

[@michaelslowmin]

Take this quiz to see what kind of class you are! You'll be amazed with the results!

[@aweeesome]

I wish I could meet Yugopnik or get a chance to converse with him and just convey how awestruck and amazed he leaves me in multiple podcasts. There is just a certain quality to his monologues that mesmerize me Specific to this podcast, him articulating what I have felt in some ways on my own for so long around the 45 min mark is what led me to type down this whole comment. Ffs i swear the biggest accomplishment science could make is to put into words or simply transmit what im feeling right now listening to him belt out yet another beautiful encapsulation what im sure plenty of people like me have felt

[@CraigKeidel]

Yugo I think has quickly become my favorite for the same reason. When he gets into his lecture tone it's always very nuanced and well articulated. Then he tells you to suck his ballsack if you don't like it and that's just the mood I'm here for.

[@aweeesome]

@@CraigKeidel haha how did you find my random comment a year later. Also I agree with everything you said lol

[@CraigKeidel]

@@aweeesome I've just started working through all the Deprogram episodes about a month ago. Usually get through 2-3 in a work day 😂 Still quite a ways to go!

[@nobody8328]

Ladies don't pee in the shower. Or so I'm told. The rest of us prop a foot up on a ledge. And if we dribble... well, it's a good think we're in a shower, eh?

[@comradecrimson509]

I think it's a great idea to reprint these works. But to be honest I another, more larger problem is that many marxist book were not translated into English. I'm from Germany and two important marxists of the modern Era are Hans Heinz Holz (philosopher, best buddies with losurdo) and Reinhardt Opitz (wrote extensively on German imperialism, nazism, the functions of fascist groups inside a bourgeois democratic state). None of their work were translated and they are fading more and more into obscurity. I really wish that one day we have an international marxist publisher that translates works from different countries into English. On another note: I am currently transcribing a gdr school book that is an introduction to dialectical and historical materialism ("Einführung in den dialektischen und historischen materialismus" Dietz Verlag). One problem I have is that it is out of print, as the publisher turned social Democrat, but they still own all rights. I'd have to wait 25 years until I could legally put it out on the internet so yeah kinda cringe.

[@YaBoiHakim]

That's very cool! We'd love to do some translations in the future but right now we're focusing on just transcription. Once you're ready with it, @ us on twitter and we might be able to do something cool with it

[@Ajente02]

Another big problem is the distribution issue. You could have those works translated into more universally known languages like English or Spanish... but if you don't have access to a distribution platform widely known enough for people in distant places of the world to get them, your translation effort and possible reach will still be quite limited. We have awesome repositories like the MIA, Marx2Mao, or BannedThought, all of which are freely available and universally reachable... but I feel most people who do translation works don't know about them or how to contribute new works to them.

[@benjamins.10]

#TeamPissInShower

[@TheDoubleBee]

Great episode, as per usual, but I was let down by the lack of outro quip by Yugopnik. 😔

[@Carlos-yw8qi]

Love the book idea and I would definitely read up!

[@katyjames901]

A great episode like always

[@C_Seamus]

Literature recommendation on the Lumpenproletariat: The Dangerous Class by Clyde Barrow

[@andrewwaybright8758]

First time listener and I really enjoyed this episode! Do you think you could talk a little bit about the Professional-Managerial Class and the whole PMC discourse from a Marxist perspective?

[@ferris740]

Can you maybe tell us the artist who made the intro or some similar tracks? sounds rly nice

[@tankpiggy]

1:04:26 does anyone know the spelling of the names Hakim says here? I know Zak Cope but not the others, though I know the spelling for John Smith.

[@seanpol9863]

Do you think Hakim may have got the name's the wrong way round? The one after Zack Cope might be Arghiri Emmanuel, a Greek-French Marxian economist who's known for his theory of 'unequal exchange'.

[@seanpol9863]

It appears KZbin doesn't like the other guy Hakim mentions. They deleted my comment not long after posting it. Have you tried googling it?

[@seanpol9863]

Have a look at the video "How Sweden & Denmark Ride the Imperialist Wave" from Break Through News. The clue is in the title. 😉

[@nobody4248]

I am pretty sure cheeky breeky are nonsense words used in chlidren's rhymes.

[@insectmuncher97]

great video!

[@maxtheredgm]

This is the class listing I more of less use at the moment : *Bourgeois (large employers, large landlords, great fortunes, members of the rentier class, etc) - do not need to work and own large amounts of capital *Petty Bourgeois (small business owners, small landlords, farmers, people making most of their income from financial investment) - need to work but also own a bit of capital, can side with bourgeois class interest or the proletariat depending on context *Labor Aristocracy (middle management, media, engineers, physicians, celebrities, cops, public servants, politicians, etc) - highly privileged proles that receive more than most from their labor, often more aligned with bourgeois class interest *The Proletariat (low income workers, service workers, blue collar workers, etc.) - need to sale their labor to live * Lumpenproles (unemployed or unemployable people, illegal migrants, prison workers, modern slaves, criminalized people, etc.) - living in great precarity, the reserve army of labor

[@Ajente02]

I tend to be more technical and specific with my definitions of classes in capitalism (capitalist, bourgeoisie, proletariat, working-class, petty-bourgeoisie, lumpenproletariat, etc.), though your definitions are practically correct for a 101 simple explanation. This is how I usually put them • *Workers* are the social class(es) of people whose source of income (the way to obtain their means of living and subsistence) comes mainly from their work (hence the name), even if they could have other minor sources. Workers can be either: *_a) Proletarian,_* which means they don't possess any other mean of sustain but their work and the work of their proles (hence the name); they range from landless agricultural workers, industrial or "blue-collar" workers, service industry workers, or even some bureaucrats or "white-collar" workers. Their income generally comes as *wage/salary.* *_b) Labour aristocrat,_* which means they indirectly benefit from other workers (though social welfare or managerial positions), generally due to the exploitation of workers in other countries by their own country, enough to guarantee their most basic means of subsistence. Their income generally comes as *wage/salary* plus *bonus.* *_c) Semi-proletarian,_* which mean they own some small means of production they directly work themselves, but from which they don't generate enough to buy the waged labour of anyone else (or even sometimes to sustain themselves permanently through all the year); they include small land-owning peasants, self-employed or "autonomous" workers, workers by commission or outsourced, artisans and artists, seasonal workers, liberal professionals, and some "freelancers". Their income generally comes as *commission.* *_d) Petty-bourgeois,_* which mean they own means of production they still work themselves (either directly or indirectly as management), and even could (or actually do) use wage labour from other workers, but from which they couldn't (or actuallt don't) extract enough surplus labour to guarantee their living sustain nor expand their capital reproduction; they range from small or medium land-owning peasants, to small or medium business owners. • *Capitalists* are the social class(es) of people whose source of income (the way to obtain their means of living) comes mainly from the profit made by their ownership of capital (hence the name), even if they could have other minor sources. Capitalists can be either: *_a) Bourgeois,_* which mean they own means of production where they use waged labour from workers to extract their surplus and make a profit from which they can live and reproduce their invested capital at the same time; they include mainly the big industrial owners, national or multinational corporates. Their income comes generally as *profit* or *dividend.* *_b) Landlord,_* which mean they own means of production (specifically land -hence the name- or buildings) which they don't use or exploit themselves, but lend to others (be it for living, for working, or for investing) in exchange for a rent from which they can live and upkeep their owned property. Their income comes as *rent.* *_c) Financial capitalist,_* which mean they own means of production (specifically "liquid" capital - money, stocks, and other financial assets) which they lend or trade to other capitalists in exchange for an interest from which they can live an reproduce their invested capital at the same time. Their income comes generally as *interest.* • There is also the *lumpenproletariat,* which is the mass of classless individuals which are disconnected from the social production (they're chronically unemployed, don't work nor own means of production) and live mainly from the (generally illegal or paralegal) extraction of others' sources of living income; these include thieves, pickpocketers, hijackers, scammers, hitmen, mercenaries, pimps, extortioners, smugglers... Thus, classes are defined, as Lenin explained by Hakim's quotation, by: 1) their *_main_** source of living income* (work -wage/salary, commission- or capital -profit, rent, interest-); 2) their *relationship to the means of production* (worker or owner); and 3) their *general distribution of the wealth* generated by society through the first two (liberals tend to only analyse this when talking about class, thus getting an erroneous and incomplete picture).

[@maxtheredgm]

@@Ajente02 I really like your addition of the semi-proletariat, something that was an oversight in my previous listing. I still prefer to have the lumpen as the reserve army of labor of people living in marginality than reducing them to a mostly criminal element. Crime is relative and always carries moralistic undertone, and isn't a reliable class signifier. Plenty of criminal operate more like petty bourgeois or labor aristocrats. Being at the bottom of the social and economic hierarchy refers to material and environmental conditions. I am of the mind that lumpens (in general) have great revolutionary potential.

[@Ajente02]

@@maxtheredgm More than defining lumpen by their criminality (notice I said "generally", not "always"; and also "paralegal", not only "illegal"), I define them by their disconnection from the social productive (or reproductive) process. Their means of sustain are only the logical consequence of such disconnection (they might as well live from charity, from informal sporadic work, or from government aid). "Marginality" also implies a (positive) moralistic undertone, and it could be very vague or imprecise for a class signifier (also, it's not something exclusive to lumpens -most working class people can be marginalized- and it's not directly related to the production process, but a byproduct of such). Lumpens, just like petite bourgeois, can be unpredictable in their class alignment, as they're not as organized, unified, coordinated, disciplined, or accustomed to socialization of their labour as proletarians are. They can a lot of the times be the most treacherous and untrustworthy (or, even, unapologetically reactionary) elements of society (let's not forget the _"18th Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte",_ or the Freikorps and SA in Weimar Republic, both had a lot of support from declassed lumpen elements). In my country, for example, the police force is actually recruited most of the time from the lumpen. Nonetheless it's true they can be won for the revolution and even proletarized, just like petite bourgeois can. But that doesn't make them revolutionary; anti-systemic and rebellious perhaps, but not necessarily revolutionary.

[@cloverjoker]

59:00 Reminds me of Cyberpunk 2077. Despite it's name, a completely spineless game when it comes to criticizing capitalism.

[@gregoriochavez9881]

Poggies, they said the things.

[@fun_ghoul]

Sloppy regards are the best kind, Doc. 😉

[@Aermydach]

Cheers for another great, informative podcast! Would you guys consider talking with Eddie and Carlos from the Midwestern Marx channel? Those guys have a scholarly bent and are focussing on building an ML movement aimed at the sorts of yanks/seppos in the rust belt. This idea came to mind because they've recently done a video covering somewhat similar content and it'd be great to hear your discussions with them.

[@fun_ghoul]

Yes. Smash them into rubble on patsockism.

[@maxtheredgm]

I never minded calling small business owners, people with rentals, or small investors petty bourgeois (as they should according to Marxist theory), because I always felt like the petty bourgeois' class interests aren't inherently reactionary. They can be included in a revolutionary project, or at least be slowly integrated in a post-revolution society. After all, they are doomed to be out-competed by the great capital. We shouldn't shy away from using adequate labels just because of some people's moralist takes on class.

[@samsadowitz1724]

Hell, in Marxist circles, I'll openly state that I have petty bourgeois aspirations, because I hope to be a business owner of my own operation. Free from the absurdities of working under someone but also utilizing socialist principles in crew relations.

[@djriqky9581]

@@samsadowitz1724 ever heard of a Co - op?

[@samsadowitz1724]

@@djriqky9581 yep, that's what I want my business idea to end up being. But also unionized. All workers need to be heard and have a say at the table of what goes on in their workplace.

[@sentientnatalie]

For sure, but the petite bourgeois do tend to warm to fascism pretty easily, too, mainly because of the brief leftist critique fascists steal and use as a lure before taking a sharp right rhetorical term. You know, the "corporate elites" take, which plays upon the competition-squashing factor that petite bourgeoisie are painfully aware of.

[@channelpolitics3184]

If you are hired to control and maintain means if production, are you still proletariat? (Imo yeah) This stuff with the controll and ownership of the means of production is pretty vague and debatable (as probably every company that own material means of production is controlled by shareholders, but not all of them have a say about a thing). But how the surplus value, its redistribution, is correlating with the class?

[@Turdfergusen382]

Why doesn't that work both ways...? Like why doesn't the proletariat band together in fear of never ruling... Is it mostly just the we're uneducated? Great episode boys.

[@fun_ghoul]

*miseducated

[@freethinker138]

Blood red ML……..and a manager, we exist.

[@samuelmercelina9407]

I liked this episode, and thank you for answering the stock question In the end .

[@fun_ghoul]

10:16 -sanctimonious- sanctified (English is weird...seen Hakim's latest video? Lol)

[@EnverHalilHoxha1917]

I love you daddy Hakim u r my fav tankie

[@talhahtaco2035]

Conclusion: youtubers are internet sharecroppers

[@omegahaxors9-11]

I always thought Petite bou- boo... boghous... b-word, was someone who owned means of production but didn't exploit labour below them.

[@jvh4438]

Different people mean different things when they say petit booger. From self-employed to small enterpricknerd. Iirc petit booger is someone who owns means of production which they let others work on but still has to do some amount of the labour (or maintenance on the machinery I guess) because they can't live solely on their capital income.

[@fun_ghoul]

They defo are boghous.

[@Ajente02]

I tend to define petite b-word as this: _"The class of people who own means of production they work themselves (either directly or indirectly as management), and could (or actually do) use wage labour from other workers, but from which they couldn't (or actually don't) extract enough surplus labour to guarantee their living sustain nor expand their capital reproduction"._ The main difference between my definition (more precise) and yours (more open) is that a petite b-word in my definition isn't excluded from exploiting labour from someone else, as long as the surplus they get from exploiting such labour is not their main source of income for their own sustaining as well as for the upkeeping of the bussiness. A person could still be considered petite b-word if they have dozens of hired workers, yet doesn't extract enough surplus from them to stop working at any moment they want to without affecting their earnings or the bussiness' daily running (unlike a big b-word bourgeois could or actually do, by just hiring someone else to do the managerial tasks).

[@sidarthur8706]

under the owner-worker system what class does a writer belong to? or a mass market musician or youtuber or something like that. a tv documentary maker. a writer owns his pen and paper but it's not the manuscript that makes him money. and he doesn't work for the publisher

[@mrmoth26]

37:57

[@СергейКочетов-о3л]

Weaklings, I piss while bathing

[@fun_ghoul]

I mean, I guess it saves on hot water bills...?

[@tankpiggy]

1:08:02 - 1:09:25

[@quinnarrenzola5284]

The only thing easy in life is passing in the shower.

[@-ilirda8502]

I think a better class analyses of you-tubers can be done by separating the platform from the content creator. I think a proper analogy would be like an art gallery and the artists. we can say the owner of the gallery is Bourgeoi and we can say that there is a power imbalance between the gallery and the artists. These points do not affect the class status of the artist. they work and own their own product to sell or keep for personal use. they own their paint, chisels, clay and pencils like you own your camera and computer and the editing software etc. so I don't think being a you tuber is sufficient to be bourgeoi

[@H4N2]

The burger cheese...

[@fun_ghoul]

Colloquial: cul LOW *kwee* ul'

[@thematronsmilitia]

My great grandfather bought me a share of Coca-Cola when I was born and I'm selling it because it's unethical to support that company, even with a small amount of capital. I might use the money to try and shortsell Tesla or something though

[@thematronsmilitia]

Or get in on the IPO if Vinfast, the Vietnamese electric car company opening production in North Carolina

[@benceszabo81]

Lukács is pronounced with the 'ch' sound like in chicken

[@qaphqa]

♡♡♡

[@markuspfeifer8473]

Boor-shoa. That’s how you spell it.

[@viceroybolt3518]

"what class are you a part of and how do you tell?" It's Lumpen. 99/100 people in this comment thread are Lumpen. Either that or good on you for watching KZbin on the bourgeoisie's dime.

[@Ajente02]

Every single breathing human being is or has been lumpen. Class society has never been a thing. We're just thieves stealing on each other. We've reached classless society analytically.

[@sleepyhead8681]

I didn't know Marx was reactionary towards any of the proletariat. My mom and self are disabled and can't work and it's bad for solidarity to judge Lumpen proletariat. I've only heard that term in very negative context.

[@GirtonOramsay]

Intriguing title... can't wait to hear how ppl piss around the globe!

[@wickedsamurai3323]

Why would you not pee in the shower? It’s just nice

[@scrumpy8192]

Mr beast is clearly petite bourg

[@thomasday610]

Borgi

[@sebastiantigani2720]

Algorithm

[@mikey_gc8]

Does Yugo also go #2 in the shower?

[@hoagielamp6543]

Well he was hesitant to suggest peeing in the shower if you don't have a dick so I'm gonna say no.

[@leroitiaks]

Would you guys rather be qualified as petty bourgeois with socialist/communist ideology?

[@colonel__klink7548]

It took me forever to realize why Engles defined class so exhaustively and carefully instead of the simple truth. "Class is defined by the dichotomy of those who give orders as compared to those who take orders. " Its simple and true. What is "ownership?" Control, ie the ability to issue commands. However that would mean that ALL leaders would be a different class, meaning the very marxist project of "the workers owning the means of production" is an impossibility. So he "scientifically" (tm) redefines class in a way to try to avoid this truth so they can ignore that Pappa Stalin, good man or cruel despot was still not the same class as the man struggling to feed his family in a mine. Stalin lived by giving orders. The other man earned it by taking them. They are not the same class.

[@colonel__klink7548]

The books arguing that western standard of living is subsidized via unequal exchange really didn't look at the whole system. They just looked at the fact that the third world is exploited and underpaid and just assumed "american working class benefits from this." No, that's not the truth. When you pay one person less the end result in the whole system is everyone getting paid gets less. Follow the chain. American workers since this exploitation started are under the threat of being "outsourced" or replaced so they haven't been able to negotiate new wages with inflation. Meaning each year in relation to living expenses their earnings go down. But wait! You say, aren't consumer products cheaper!? In stated price, yes in actual price no. Americans falling behind usually can only buy those things on credit. So even though the TV costs 20% less they pay 22% annual interest on it for five years. They pay MORE not less. However since all taxes collected are based upon the price per labor hour and the price of goods every year the government gets less in taxes to use to make up for this growing gap. In other words the exploitation of the third world impoverished and indebts all of society save for a small Cadre of capitalists.

[@MrPsaunders]

First

[@heroicskeleton1566]

Hakim claims that French is a pointless language, yet he sure spoke a lot of it in this episode. Curious 🤔

[@fun_ghoul]

Hmph. I hadn't noticed. 🤣

[@redox4088]

Hey why don’t you guys talk about the failed socialist state Vuvuzela?

[@StitchesForScars]

because its not socialist

[@cytosol9836]

It could be an interesting subject. Mainly its amerikkka's fault

[@winsonzhu4427]

for any replies: Vuvuzela probably indicates this being a joke - See the meme about "Communism 100 Gorrillion Dead Vuvuzela No iPhone"

[@redox4088]

@@winsonzhu4427 Stalin killed 100 trillion with his bear hands.

[@ericktellez7632]

70% of the economy in Venezuela is in private hands not owned by the people

[@justinlindfors8512]

I'm gonna be the capitalist's advocate and ask what would you do differently compared to every country that tried socialism? On one hand, there are many factors especially the US contributing to the failure of socialist regimes but on the other hand Capitalism despite its flaws hasn't failed the US compared to the USSR. Besides most people misunderstanding economics, in the US, you gonna find people defending the systems in place such as healthcare, education, and the prison industrial complex. Everyone else besides the US values quality of life over profit. Lastly, people who criticize socialism think that capitalism is how things are produced and sold and stuff. Not understanding that economics is not just capitalism or socialism it's a relationship between land capital and labor and that these 2 economic systems merely emphasize the importance of one of these specifically capital and labor. However, when you bring up land in the conversation it's no wonder that people are gravitating to socialism because most people are not capitalist by definition and don't own land to their capital if any land in general.

[@Ajente02]

They've already answered most of this things in Episode 7: "Ls of former Socialism (selfcrit)".

[@justinlindfors8512]

@@Ajente02 Ah thx

[@MidiX2]

KZbinr are Petty Bourgeoisie who gives fals hope and try to get to Bourgeoisie class with the fals hope they sell.

[@evilthatmendo]

Asking for a friend @yugopnik what investment for $500 would you make to earn $500000? Just curious 😊