The Elusive I 12- Self, Soul, and Spirit

In this concluding session we discuss the relations between self, soul, and spirit, by integrating and building upon all the dimensions laid out by myself, Gregg, and Chris.
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[@Luis-m225]

This is such an underrated series and i feel like its necessary for understanding the meaning crisis, ive run into the series multiple times and couldnt get an optimal grip on it but after a lot of research and dedication i found it to be really enlightening at this particular part of my life and i just want to thank you all for your work and im always learning something new on this channel and i really appreciate it.

[@gettingtogive]

Watched this video multiple times gents and like a fine wine it gets better every time. Thank you all for this wonderful work 🙏

[@82472tclt]

I could listen to Chris speak for a thousand years and without hesistation sign up for the next thousand. It's something about the "place" which comes with his speech is one that is simply opening to the inexhaustible while articulating the particular squeeze of my finitude...and moves me to say poetic stuff on KZbin about it. Deep bow to everything it takes to be this kind of being...I'm getting lot's out of it;-)

[@johnvervaeke]

Chris’ natural poetry and lyricism binds the abstract to the intimate in beauty.

[@jdelaplaya9678]

The necessary tension of existence. Loving this dialogue ❤️

[@JiminiCrikkit]

Chris has such eloquence and sharpness it's staggering and Gregg affords powerful insight and loving passion for this it touches me deeply ... At 23 mins and onward: Beautifully put John. Loved this series so much. Feels like narrative almost forces the self to be a paradox, yet no such paradox really exists when it comes to the actual realisation and participation of/with the self... 'it' is in fact integral ... and Integrity is a good thing!

[@evanblackie7510]

I deeply appreciated the dialogic interplay of trinities across so many domains, including ultimately a primary ontological frame of Self, Soul and Spirit. So fitting that this was afforded through the non-ironic realisation of the three interlocutors themselves in an emergent trinity dynamic. Thanks to all for a wonderful series.

[@brianskolart]

Maybe what's in between the language of explaining and the language of training is where the creative resides? Something that can only manifest from joining the two and finding the line in between that works? Love these conversations, they have done so much for me, thank you.

[@lizellevanwyk5927]

A heartfelt thank you to Chris for luring me back to this series (as I am quite unable to rewatch 11 without then also watching 12 again ;-) ) This video is one, from my perspective at least, that needs hours of contemplation. That might just be what I’ll be doing every Sunday morning for the next 8 weeks or so: rewatch +/- 10 minutes and then just let it sink in, bit by bit :-)

[@leedufour]

Thanks Christopher, Gregg and John!

[@johnvervaeke]

Thanks Lee.

[@dalibofurnell]

this was awesome, thank you guys

[@williamjmccartan8879]

Hello John, Gregg and Christopher, could you put a link to the final q and a within the notes. I found it on the stoa podcast, you should make it easier to find guys It was a great trek, Gregg's real engagement in his profession shines through this series, Chris and John, your dynamic of feeding off each other in totally different but similar vocabularies is very apparent, thank you gentlemen. It's been an eventful journey, Gregg's point about the creation of a foundational communicative set of tools being put in place was foreshadowing of the future. In your own language gentlemen. Peace

[@Mystery_G]

Wonderful series! Gratitude to you all!

[@lizellevanwyk5927]

In regards to Christopher’s “We cannot be self constituted, we somehow must be told (I mean ‘told’ figuratively; I don’t mean someone comes and knocks on our door and speaks this to us) who we are and yet there is no one in the world that can tell us that.” 14:49 Literally (minus the knocking on my door) I have been told (reminded) who I am twice this week (probably more times, but twice I paid attention because it was my mom - and I am grateful to be able to say a mother who has always been attentive to her children - and a friend with whom I went through a 3 year study in analytical psychology, with the related therapy, practising active imagination etc on each other). Is this not precisely the purpose, or the beauty, of fellowship/koinonia/communitas/agape? Relations in which we can recollect ourselves, build our symbolic way of being. It might not be a matter of there being no one in the world that can tell us who we are. It might rather be that no one person can do that. We might need the entire world to guide us beyond the boundaries of a spiritless way of being. 😉

[@domenicmolinaro6580]

I think the 'space between' you were all trying to find language for at the end is firmly in 'what cannot be said must be passed over in silence' territory...but I'm happy you tried. Thanks for this journey all, insights from this series have acted "fatally" upon my self narrative several times

[@prodesign8189]

We know that we do not know, but still try to know what we will never know, Maybe.

[@KarlDietl]

This series was great, thank you so much. If I were allowed to make a wish though, I would wish for another series on the Self, but transformed into a format that is more accessible to people who don't have a strong, professional background in the topics. I am a medical doctor, intending to pursue a career in psychiatry (and I strongly desire to contribute to a better form of psychiatry than the ones I have seen so far). I know people who are much more intelligent than me. But I am still a very educated person and have taught myself psychology and spirituality related topics in my free time for soon a decade now. So, although I liked this series very, very much, I found it rather difficult to follow more deeply nonetheless, especially when compared to the series "awakening from the meaning crisis" or "after socrates", which were clearly more aimed toward a more broad audience. If I may be so frank, it is especially difficult for me to follow Christopher Mastropietro. He is clearly exceptionally eloquent, intelligent and knowledgeable, and for people who are more versed in such sophisticated language, it may surely be like music to the ears. So, I hope this will not be taken the wrong way, but to someone of my comparatively lower caliber, it seems that it is precisely his special ability to articulate his knowledge at such a high level, that creates a barrier to those who are less able in that regard. I might add that I am a native English speaker, but that I grew up in Germany and was trained in German, so that my vocabulary is not as sophisticated as it otherwise could be. So for people who are not native English speakers, I imagine it must be even more troublesome. However, it is not just Christopher's particular well-spokenness, but also the general format that seems to me more like it is aimed toward colleagues of the field rather than "outsiders". As a medical doctor, I am very familiar with this issue, as it is a large part of a doctor's job to translate his or her highly specialized knowledge into a form that hopefully any patient can understand. So I know how difficult it can be, but I also know how worthwhile it can be. If there were a version of this series that made the material more easily accessible and understandable for people like me, who want to implement this knowledge into their fields, but who don't have the professional background to follow it without rather large investments of time and effort, I think that would be an extremely valuable service, even necessary for enabling it to permeate the larger culture more effectively. Obviously I have gotten to know many medical doctors, and very few of them would put in the effort necessary to delve deeply into a show like this (not even most psychiatrists or psychologists I know of). For one, because most medical doctors that I have been in contact with are typically not the more intellectual type of persons that laymen often imagine them to be (intelligent and educated for sure, but not usually far or creatively outside of their own fields). But also, because doctors are mostly buried in their work and already spend a lot of their own, unpaid free time just to cultivate some kind of upkeep on the developments of their own fields more narrowly. So the more easily accessible knowledge like this could be, the more likely it is that other professions would actually be able to use it. And in my very humble opinion, the medical field is certainly one that could use it. Thank you very much, and thank you so, so much for all of you amazing work.

[@KarlDietl]

I got the strong urge to add that I really, really hope that this will not be understood as me trying to write badly about any of this. The work of all three of these people has changed my life for the better more than anything else that I have ever learned in my whole life and I am deeply grateful for that. I only wrote what I wrote because I want this kind of knowledge to enter my field, as well as mainstream culture more generally, as effectively as possible.

[@peterrosqvist2480]

59:30 John: ... to really get the sell we have to somehow be responsible to both ontological transcendence and sensibility transcendence if we're going to come into an appropriate understanding of it and then for me I don't know now what the normativity of the mediating language is. Gregg: ... you're working with somebody and they're in their particular world and you have to cultivate a sensibility that fosters adaption with whatever the models and frames that they're going to use and you want to cultivate the flexibility within the constraints and that would be the training kind of sensibility to stop the vicious cycles and cultivate more [wisdom], but most people don't immediately be like wait a minute what's the abstract principle that's operating here, they're just sort of like okay now I have another pragmatic schematic reference that I can now apply. I completely understand this, I grew up Mormon and I've been doing this process with myself to allow my Mormon frames to exist.

[@jdelaplaya9678]

As someone trained in geometrical engineering, I love this concept of the adjacent. I think this is the symbolic dialogue of the Christian cross and the Hindu swastika/ sauwastika

[@MrCRACKINSKULLZ]

Might want to check out Dr.Roger Strachan and Ryan Holsapple who developed and work with a Self, Soul, Spirit, model alongside gestalt and sub-personality methods in psychological work.

[@lizellevanwyk5927]

PS: Jumping to conclusions here, but encouraged by Guy’s praise in these comments (of how one could listen to Chris speak for a thousand years and without hesitation sign up for the next thousand): it seems quite obvious to me that Chris’ language is the third, and then, based on the fact that Lost Knowledge of the Imagination brought Chris to mind, indeed, the imaginal/poetic.

[@jdelaplaya9678]

May I suggest a substitution of the concept of 'Spirit' for ' Grammar' as it has a non ambiguous relation to linguistics? That way you can conceptualise the self as a gerund. An action being. Not beholden to the noun or adjective but fundamental to their dialogical emergence.

[@joeyfoster5799]

On the subject of the two language, that of training and that of theory. It seems to me that it takes both forms of language to get a grasp on the third “unifying” language if you will. Based on the fact that the three of you obviously have a clear and concise grasp on this concept but cannot articulate it, could it be that the synthesis of both types of language creates a, non-propositional, enacted symbol that then provides the integration into that third language. A language that in itself is nonlogically identical to spoken language? Please let me know if you happen to see this!

[@82472tclt]

Think for the Greeks this all comes together in "Skole"

[@jgarciajr82]

❤️🔥🙏Christopher🙏🔥❤️

[@jdelaplaya9678]

John, are you familiar with the practice of sticky hands in Tai chi chuan?

[@82472tclt]

Theora is a praxis for those being who die

[@82472tclt]

After all this I still don't know if I am!!!????!!!!

[@82472tclt]

It's a lot less upset about it though....;-)

[@willgiorno1740]

Thanks you all. Very satisfying and enjoyable. I wonder will u post info re accessing the live stream here on youtube? Or need we look elsewhere? Thanks again.

[@johnvervaeke]

Thank you. I. have tweeted a link to the event which will be held at Peter Limberg’s Stoa.

[@willgiorno1740]

@@johnvervaeke great. Thanks John.

[@lizellevanwyk5927]

In response to Chris's comment around 18:30 : No Chris, you haven't talked enough. You could never talk enough. Not as long as you talk like this. 😉

[@crakhaed]

Can anyone help me spell the Chris gentleman's last name? I'm writing down his quote about the self around 2:47~ish. Fascinating already lol.

[@jdelaplaya9678]

Could play act as a mediating language?

[@delifigful]

10:00 so what? makes a prayer.