The Excruciating Tale of Bad Cinderella

This isn't just a deep dive. It's a BAD deep dive. This video has been in the works since October of last year and explores the wild history of this show, its west end run, and its creators. Who would've thought musical theater would be so dramatic?
Channels / Videos you should also watch:
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MickeyJoTheatre: / @mickeyjotheatre
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Lindsay Ellis** Review of Love Never Dies: • Love Never Dies: A Mag...
Jane Mulcahy's review of Amazon's Cinderella: • The girlbossery of Cin...
**Yes she's retired from KZbin but this video is heavily inspired by all of the great content Lindsay has made on Andrew Lloyd Webber musicals.
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EDITOR'S NOTE This video was filmed and edited prior to Andrew Lloyd Webber's statement released on March 18, 2023, regarding his son's ongoing battle with cancer. Criticism and jokes aside, no one deserves that and I sincerely hope Nicholas and his family recover from this awful disease.
Intro: 00:00
Andrew Lloyd Webber: 03:11
The Idea for Cinderella:15:27
The Pandemic:19:04
The Show Opens:: 28:10
The Plot: 31:41
My Problems with the Show: 51:26
The Turning Point: 01:03:08
That Time Everyone Lost their Jobs: 01:07:14
Bad Cinderella Press Event: 01:22:33
The Marketing: 01:25:39
Bad CInderella Previews: 01:33:31
My Final Thoughts: 01:50:16
Outro: 01:53:22
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#badcinderella

[@cas6359]

okay she didn’t just deface the statue of a random stranger that died a tragic death. she defaced the statue of her childhood best friend’s brother that died a tragic death. and he’s just cool with it? if some friend of mine graffitied a memorial to my dead sister, i wouldn’t be like “oh, classic Bad Robert! sorry i haven’t been around since my sister died lol”

[@wowjennawow]

screaming and crying

[@sunnydayzz0]

BAD ROBERT KILLED ME 💀💀💀💀

[@podohlya]

​@@wowjennawow0

[@sophiaaskins6619]

BAD ROBERT

[@laniewytovak7328]

also cinderella getting a nice dress isn’t her “changing herself”, it’s her finally getting to wear something beautiful after all of her years of hard work and sacrifice.

[@wormflavoredskittles6395]

EXACTLY IDK HOW PPL MISS THAT!! CUZ LIKE AT LEAST IN THE DISNEY VERSION SHE WORKED HARD TO MAKE HER ORIGINALLY PINK DRESS AND IT GOT TORED UP! she isnt changing herself she always wanted to wear something pretty and flowey and the godmother gave her a chance after her work/her friends work got messed up

[@mammoneymelon]

but traditionally feminine things bad :(((( /sarcasm but yeah, the whole story is about a girl escaping a bad situation and living her dream, there's this odd idea that people can't be empowered while wearing beautiful dresses and dancing with princes

[@oliviac295]

She never even got a chance to be herself, and was trapped in an abusive environment. The fact that she dreamed of going to the ball indicates that she wanted a fancy ball gown, since there's a dress code.

[@kaykeunil]

Sometimes it’s as simple as wanting to wear a pretty dress and that’s fine like it is not that complicated

[@ArchieRatsworth]

She had her inheritance stolen by her step family and forced to wear rags and sleep on the floor. All she wanted was a night to enjoy herself with her peers. A member of the ruling class is so taken by her grace that he decides that she is fit for royal marriage. Her step family tries to steal her place by locking her away from what is rightfully hers (again). They're punished for treason and fraud.

[@BlueBoboDoo100]

So Cinderella teases and makes fun of the prince but secretly likes him? Feels like a real missed opportunity to call it "Tsunderella"

[@Ivy-Woods]

underrated comment

[@bethanybrookes8479]

unfortunately, i dont think enough of the target audience of the show would get it...

[@monochromicornthetuna4256]

I cackled

[@ronan-outoftime]

ALW probably doesn't even know what tsundere means

[@casuallyceltic]

Unironically my first Tumblr URL in 2010.

[@ErinaBleu]

the worst part is that they made Malala watch it. I can only imagine what was going on in that poor woman's head when she was sitting in the audience

[@geode5224]

the woman can now say a bullet is the SECOND worst thing to go through her head now

[@Metroid250]

​@@geode5224 the way I laughed 🤣

[@TheBizzle1984]

She was probably thinking "It's for your charity. This idiot is giving you money for your charity. Just smile and nod. It can't go on that long. Here, have some deep thoughts to distract you from this drivel"

[@iwakeupandboomimarat]

why is malala always at the worst events... leave her ALONE shes got enough to deal with

[@SmaMan]

@@geode5224 ...take your damn thumbs up.

[@stahppls2293]

Removing the original feminism of the Fairy Godmother helping Cinderella because it's the right thing to do and making Cinderella pay for her services is one of the worst stumbles

[@djbobby224]

I don't think it's just about feminism but the whole point of the "fairy god mother" idea is to be helpful rather than a hindrance

[@Richardiii2]

The original Fairy Godmother was a fish who got eaten. Like literally in the earliest versions.

[@lizabethhampton4537]

And if they were going to go the whole Real Fairies Demand Payment of Some Type route, typically they go for like, firstborn children...

[@Bigeyeroll]

@@Richardiii2There’s always one of you.

[@Richardiii2]

@@Bigeyeroll I mean... if there is a comment about a story told and retold again and again that has many different versions, which views changes made to an "original" as negative, isn't good to know that what you think of as the "original" also made changes before condemning a work for changing what you believe is the "original". If you know the fairy godmother was originally a pet fish of ambiguous gender, doesn't that change how we view "changes" to an "original." (By the way, we don't think this fish version is the original, it is only the first one written down that we still have).

[@funkmachine_]

it is so funny that at the start of the show they sing that cinderella ‘can’t be bothered to put on makeup’ when she is wearing BLACK LIPSTICK THE WHOLE TIME

[@ochuspin]

Yeah, like I was totally down to see a Cinderella with bedhead hair and everything, not another person who’s trying just as hard as everyone else to keep up appaearances

[@lizd.2343]

Giving me Janis in Mean girls vibe. like she definitely spent as much time on her looks, hair, and clothes (some she definitely made herself) as the plastics do.

[@pandakatiefominz]

​@@lizd.2343 Isn't the whole point of Janis that she's mean too? She literally says at some point, "See the thing about me and Regina is we KNOW we're mean." Janis is a "not like other girls" character, and the *point* is to see that, in fact, she *is* like other girls, because all girls are complicated and varied (which is why Mean Girls ends with all the characters just being cool with who they are instead of trying to fill a false niche, and a new set of plastics, because the new students hadn't learned the lesson yet)

[@ohboy-zi1yf]

it tries to be antifemininity while cinderella is dressed super feminine too 💀

[@amandaking9527]

@@pandakatiefominzliterally exactly this

[@jdng86]

This Cinderella story sounds like it was written by someone who hates women, and poor people, and young people, but still wants their money.

[@bigjedimullet]

You’re right, it was in fact written by Andrew Lloyd Webber.

[@cottage-core_]

​@@bigjedimullet+

[@1rockcrawford]

@@bigjedimulletincorrect. The music was ALW, but the book was written by 2 women; Emerald Fennell and Alexis Scheer. What this story gives me is 2010’s girl boss faux-feminism: a thin veneer of empowerment but ultimately steps on other women to get ahead.

[@akarun45]

@@1rockcrawford so white feminism?

[@thesoubretteoftheopera7313]

He has a pattern of showing a rather Victorian Era view of women

[@JohnJacobJingleheimerSchmidt7]

The problem with Bad Cinderella is that you can’t watch Bad Cinderella without wishing you were watching Ella Enchanted instead

[@bigjedimullet]

Or Ever After. Or The Glass Slipper. Or the Brandy movie. Or paint drying…

[@somedragonbastard]

Yeah like I read the book first so I'll probably never *like* the ella enchanted movie (even though its not really that bad im just nostalgic) but I'd still rather watch it than this

[@adrianghandtchi1562]

@@somedragonbastard absolutely loved the Ella book

[@randomrhombeses4759]

But what about… Bad Ella Enchanted 🤔🤔🤔🧐🧐🧐

[@Obby004]

True dat

[@rkkwc]

so glad that the legacy of "hal it's about cats" continues to be maintained. truly an iconic moment for musical theater

[@ashleynorton]

"and we never discussed it again"

[@naomistarlight6178]

I like that not everything has to be an allegory or have a complex symbolic meaning. Some things are just for entertainment/fun and that's ok too. More than ok, it's a necessity.

[@vurrunna]

Possibly the greatest sign of its far-reaching impact is that the phrase was co-opted by prolific concept artist Max Fitzgerald for his post-apocalyptic Napoleonic tabletop wargame themed around eldritch root vegetables, Turnip28. In a word: "It's about turnips." I know none of you are gonna have any idea what I even just said, but that just goes to show how wild it is that the quote impacted such a niche community.

[@walabug9586]

@@vurrunna I looked it up and holy shit it looks so badass thanks for that

[@TimaeusTeztified]

@@naomistarlight6178 lord knows we need more mindless content to consume! There's not enough media that doesn't need to be examined because it's already spoonfed into consumers mouths, that's for sure. I hate having to think on my own!

[@taylort3674]

The thing is the original Cinderella is difficult to write as a "feminist retelling" because much like other stories it wasn't really anti-feminist. Which is to say Cinderella was a story about a girl in a abusive household finally getting her wish come true and ultimately getting a happy life she deserves. Often times people have this impression that its not a feminist story unless the female character is a #girlboss type, but they lean so heavily into the concept without considering the original story and its meaning that they end up creating something that is quite regressive by removing the elements that were contextually feminist if looked at beyond a surface level.

[@emilytaylorinkie]

There's a fantastic video on youtube that actually talks about why Cinderella should be celebrated as a feminist icon because of her kindness. Her story is literally the parable of "do good, receive good". Despite how people portray her, Cinderella is not weak or submissive. She is an abused woman who, IN SPITE OF IT ALL, REMAINS KIND and finds the strength to defy her abusers for a chance to feel normal, just for a night. Her wish ISN'T to marry the prince, or even dance with him (though she hopes). It's nothing so selfish that would take away his agency. She just wants to attend the ball like everyone else. BE like everyone else. Be MORE than what they make her. And, in the end, it is BECAUSE SHE IS KIND--that she refuses to become less than what she expects of herself--that magic favours her and she is aided by those that care for her because of it; and that's what allows her to break free from her abusers and find herself adored by a prince AND THE FACT THEY COMPLETLY THIS POINT APPARENTLY MAKES ME SO MAD.

[@michelleokafor1268]

​@@emilytaylorinkie 🎯🎯🎯

[@JamieElli]

It's so sad that the plot would be significantly better if Cinderella also knew prince charming and defaced the statue because it wasn't how he'd want to be remembered. It's a good way to keep that rebellion along with sympathy.

[@vixyvix371]

I wish i could be as petty as Patty who used a million dollars to build a whole swimming pool JUST so she could name it as a memorial for a guy who's still alive

[@EmoBearRights]

What's the use in feeling blue? If you get it, you get it.

[@gmede377]

I like to think of it as a prophecy. If one day ALW finds himself meeting a watery fate we know which pool it'll be in

[@wrenmassey6876]

People need to stop making "new" versions of Cinderella. They all seem to misunderstand Cinderella and try to make her edgy instead of exploring how the trauma of growing up in an abusive household affects you which would be way more interesting

[@Anna-xh6fk]

Yeah that’s also not what the ‘original’ Cinderella is about lol would it be better? Yes. But Cinderella is about how physical ugliness is a sign of evil and that if you (a young hot girl) simply take your abuse and do what you’re told, you can escape your abuse via a powerful and/or rich man

[@thisissme]

Absolutely. I mean I think it would be beautiful and tragic to see Cinderella trying to get the mother and sisters to like her, trying to make their favorite foods, say the right thing, surprise them with presents, and be rebuffed every time. It’s such a common experience for abuse victims and would showcase her loneliness and yearning for companionship and why she turned to mice eventually. It would also explain to an audience that might not understand abuse how something like learned helplessness develops.

[@afuregu]

@@Anna-xh6fk let's not omit Aschenputtel in the field of "original" (which of course isn't really possible, the tale's been changing for thousands of years, so I assume you're air-quoting 'original' as in, 'the most culturally remembered') versions of Cinderella, here. i argue it being an amalgamation of smaller tellings that don't factor looks into the plot at all strengthens this point vs only considering Perrault's version (which doesn't put all the stock into looks either)

[@littlewillowlinda]

Now that i think about it, so many of these stories are just girls freeing themselves from their tyrannical situations. Rumplestiltskin comes to mind, Rapunzel of course, belle, I’m sure there are others. It would be cool to focus on the trauma recovery side of a bunch of these and put it all together.

[@luciakaminski779]

@@Anna-xh6fk It could be argued that Cinderella is passive and lacks agency, but she didn't do what she was told. The whole point was that she was told she couldn't go to the ball and the second she had the means to go she basically said "f*ck that, I'm going. Even if it's for one night only, I'm doing this for myself".

[@hollum1648]

ALW: *writes a bad show* The show: *closes* ALW: why would covid do this

[@SuperNuclearUnicorn]

The delayed reaction, the shocked looks from the cast and the gasps from the audience after processing that ALW just bitched about how everything went wrong because of covid and the government and then called the show that the cast and crew put their heart and soul in to "a costly mistake" If someone wrote a movie villain to act so coldly people would say it's unrealistic

[@miacorliss1151]

The only redeeming feature of that was the relief on the cast members faces when the audience kept booing ALW, instead of clapping and cheering - it was a nice symbol of solidarity between the fans and the people who brought it to life.

[@juliamavroidi8601]

The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to make sense

[@Hell_With_Perks]

I feel like people never notice the modern trope the Cinderella plot was MADE for…the fake wedding. Imagine it - Cinderella wants to escape her abusive home, Prince Charming is forced to marry someone he barely knows from a ball… Maybe she wanted to attend, and was allowed…but only to serve the party. She meets him while waitressing, and they have a moment to create this plan - maybe the role of fairy godmother is someone else at the ball willing to fetch a spare dress from home, but wants it back by the end of the day. They spend the evening together, being able to be themselves away from the eyes of both their families, but the night is cut short by Cinderella being recognised and kicked out or something I dunno There’s more potential there than whatever Andy did

[@mammoneymelon]

dude, cinderella as a fake marriage to actual marriage story??? 10/10 imagine they conduct their plan, saving cinderella from an abusive family and giving the prince someone to marry in order to appease the rest of the royal family. they're friendly but not really "in love". however, as they get to know each other more and more, they end up encouraging each other to embrace their hidden traits. and then in the end they run away together and live in a cute little cottage in a far away land where they fall in love for real and work through their traumas together

[@casey5683]

@@mammoneymelonok I love this. Kind of reminds me of Harry and Meghan at the end a little

[@m2012o1]

That's an awesome premise!

[@Dumpknoedel]

get Shonda on this

[@Phantomphan613]

​@@mammoneymelon i would read/watch the shit out of that!

[@Luischocolatier]

Cinderella is about survival of familial abuse. That's it. A girl whose family has been incredibly abusive to her and her still enduring and maintaining a genuine hope for humanity despite every wrong done on her. All that she wishes is a night of fun away from her abusive family. The prince only comes as a nice extra. "Oh wow I wanted a crazy night out but I ended up falling in love too, damn that was cool". That's literally all she needed. Any adaptation of Cinderella misunderstanding this is automatically a 0/10 for me.

[@janeeyre1990]

For me, a good modern retelling would make the prince a villain, but Cinderella can't see the red flags because abuse has been normalized for her.

[@nonegiven5589]

@@janeeyre1990 Nah, she should get a happy ending

[@JuriAmari]

@@nonegiven5589 I agree. If anything, a good adaptation may adopt some elements from the 3 day version of the story (name of that version’s escaping me) where she gets a dress that expresses each aspect of the sky (sun, moon, and stars) and Cinderella realizes that there is a healthier relationship dynamic and the prince’s love is genuine.

[@bigjedimullet]

@@JuriAmari Donkeyskin! (Or Thousand-Furs, or Like Meat Loves Salt.)

[@justlola417]

Yesss exactly! It's a simple issue on the surface but a very important one, so so many adaptations try to complicate it with other shit but it just serves to muddle the message. I feel like the only genuinely good changes to modernise it would be to deepen that storyline and explore Cinderella's reaction to being treated well and to escaping that situation, but even then I don't think it's necessary

[@rachelmcgraw3605]

“i knew carrie bcs she made videos with dan and phil”finally someone talking in language we all can understand

[@doothi]

phil's vocal lesson still lives on in our memories 💔

[@emmadenton1826]

See, I always think of her as the sister of Tom Fletcher, the founder of McFly 😂😂 I was a girl in England in the early 2000s, I can't help it

[@pintpullinggeek]

​@@Natg6 We all try to forget about him...

[@dexterityemma6248]

no because that’s all I think of when I see her LMFAO

[@pam7705]

​@@Natg6he who shall not be named 😌

[@alexpaul9678]

When I heard this was supposed to be a “feminist” retelling I was already rolling my eyes, but listening to your plot recap, this is one of the most misogynist adaptations Al’s could come up with wtf

[@shadowm2k7]

59:00 The Prince doesn't fall in love with Cinderella because she's pretty.. All the women at the ball in the movie are fawning over him with fake pleasantries and personalities to try and woo him over but Cinderella is just in the background taking in the grand majesty of the castle and just being in the moment because she knows she will never be there again. And when he greets her, she doesn't even know he's the prince!!!! Just some guy comes up to her and starts dancing and this must be like a magical mystical dream to her!!! They stroll the gardens and get to know each other for hours and start falling in love. When the bells chime, Cinderella tries to get away and uses the excuse of "I haven't met the prince yet!!!" And no wonder he fell for her 😭! I would also like to add that everyone craps on him for "forgetting what the girl of his dreams looks like and has to try a shoe on every girl in the kingdom to find her but THIS. WAS. NOT. HIS. IDEA!!!! It was The King's idea because he's so obsessed with having grandchildren. Even the duke explains "but sire!!! This the shoe could fit any number of girls!" To which the king replies "that's his problem!" So they both acknowledge that this plan is totally flawed and stupid but the king doesn't care WHO the prince marries as long as he gets his baby incubator

[@Edelara]

This sums pretty much why the "Cinderella changed for her man" never worked. Like yeah,we had never seen her using extravagant gowns before but that's because she is poor, and a slave.

[@Moocow2003]

I mean, as a ruse to get to search the house of every woman in the kingdom, it totally worked. You can hate his methods but you can't argue with his results 😂

[@shadowm2k7]

​@@Moocow2003lol true!!! Can't argue with that 😂😂!!

[@shamedgeeky]

I love the “informed ugliness” trope; “informed attractiveness’s” mean younger sibling. It’s when you need a character to be unattractive for plot reasons, but you don’t want to actually cast someone unattractive (awkward!) so you just have the other characters declare them to be ugly even though everyone is hot

[@ArchieRatsworth]

Have them behave rudely, make nasty expressions and other ugly behaviour.

[@clementinedanger]

That fucked me up so much as a kid. Every 80s and 90s teen movie and show did this, where they make fun of these objectively beautiful girls for being ugly freaks and baby me just sitting there in a panic trying to find out what the hell was wrong with them. She's All That broke my little brain. In retrospect my parents were right to try and stop me from watching American movies.

[@bigjedimullet]

@@clementinedanger I’m pretty sure She’s All That and similar movies were the primary reason I mostly wore glasses when I was younger. When you develop a body very early that men and boys think they’re entitled to and the movies tell you that glasses make you ugly, it feels like the easiest way to try and cancel out the harassment. Or at least it does until you start wondering why it’s not working.

[@ifeeldead463]

@@ArchieRatsworth Or shove glasses and braces on them so when they're gonna do the makeover scene they just remove the glasses and the braces (somehow) and everyone will go "(gasp) you ARE beautiful!" even tho the only change is that the character is likely blind and in pain from getting their braces unprofessionally removed

[@pandakatiefominz]

​@@clementinedanger Although... regarding that trope... I work at a psychiatric facility with minors. I have to get up really early and my job is exhausting, so I just wear my glasses and don't put on any make-up. One of my students said "You're not pretty enough to be a mermaid" so I showed him a picture of how I look when I'm dressed like myself and not "please god let me live another day" chic, and he and another student were shocked to learn that if you take my glasses off and put lipstick on me, "suddenly" I'm pretty I think teenage boys just can't see bone structure

[@ohmiasi2538]

As an arts student in London, about half of everyone I know has worked in the theatre industry at some point and I've heard SO MANY 'weird encounters with ALW' stories. The man is an absolute menace

[@SuperNuclearUnicorn]

If I had a list like "celebrities who I bet are weird or act like dicks" then Sir Andy would definitely be in the top 10. Dude is just... Odd in every way

[@Julia_beelll]

Doesn't surprise me. As much as I like the music in Phantom, the plot just gets me every time lol

[@ashleynorton]

I want to know all the gossip

[@janjanbinks1710]

He's the Regina George of Westview

[@alphasia91]

I think he’s creepy af. There was no reason to cast an actual minor in the role of Christine for the movie. Despite what people think she’s not a minor in the books. He had Emmy Rossum audition at his house and then cast her and that’s weird. The Beauty Underneath is a weird af song. The song the queen sings about her dead son being “well equipped” in Bad Cinderella is just bizarre. I am convinced ALW is just a really creepy dude who is losing his ability to hide how creepy he is as he ages.

[@Katie-gr6qq]

As someone with the same blood pressure thing, I can attest that it is the best way to experience an ALW show for the first time, because I was having an episode while watching Cats (2019). My sister also was having her first ocular migraine in the theater and the next day we had to figure out what was hallucinated and what really was that bad.

[@urbanarmory]

Oh man, I've had migraines for decades and I can't imagine Cats + Migraine ....

[@janeeyre1990]

Disabled / chronically ill life. If me and my mom tried to go (both autistic with ADHD), we would probably last 10 minutes before needing to physically escape.

[@Quackervoltz]

What did she hallucinate? I'm curious

[@Taich0u]

I saw it in a perfectly normal headspace. It was like having an insane fever dream while drunk. Me and my friend sat in the third row which was a MISTAKE as we started to experience the weirdest vertigo ever after the first hour from the horrid greenscreen effects. (We saw it before it was “fixed” btw) When I got home, I had to watch another film just to feel normal. I am glad I saw it in theaters as it wouldn’t have been such a weird experience if we weren’t watching it 10 ft away from this massive screen.

[@coatimundi69]

shaking and sobbing over you saying cats is bad. ALW is a horrible guy but cats is the peak of camp

[@Cosplaybuddygiraffes]

Holy shit the video of Carrie talking about how work life can drain you is *THE* most uncomfortable thing to watch after seeing her initial video announcement to being Cinderella in an ALW production and the resulting context

[@gracelament]

It feels kind of silly with all the lackluster remakes and interpretations, but I have a soft spot for the original Cinderella story. It's a story of someone who comes from abuse but has hope and resilience and then finds love in the end. I feel like a lot of interpretations don't even like the original story that much...

[@moosenman]

TRUE!!! A lot of people I feel like don’t actually sit down and think about the original story. The reimagining are also always trying to be ‘feminist’ without even understanding 1. What that means and 2. How it can translate into the story.

[@xwormbonesx]

You mean the original Disney movie story right? Cuz the *original* original is the Brothers Grimm one where the step sisters cut off their toes and get their eyes peeled out by doves

[@savannahgrace111]

@@xwormbonesx Still better than Bad Cinderella 😂

[@princedonovaughn1182]

​@Skelly Bones There is no original. THE cinderella tale has existed for centuries all across the world. The oldest known tale dates back to Egypt but there were probably versions even before that while all date back to long before the brother's Grimm ever got ahold of the tale.

[@moosenman]

@@xwormbonesx Yeah since it’s the most known one And tbh I kinda dislike the Brothers Grimm version? They aren’t terrible but it’s also kinda. Cruel and unusual punishments were very common

[@Tottosmile]

The cast laughing as the crowd boos Andrew's name, iconic

[@Thehellevator]

My favourite retelling of Cinderella is the tzechoslovakian version "three nuts for cinderella". In this version, cinderella meets the prince several times in different disguises and shows him up in archery, among other things. I highly recommend people watching it, it has a beautiful soundtrack, amazing costuming and it's so fun!

[@JuriAmari]

That sounds so much fun! I’d watch this!

[@morbidsearch]

Eat your heart out, Merida

[@WildArtistsl]

i loved it litrally forgot the name thank you for reminding me of this beautiful art I watched this when I was a little tween loved it

[@WinningSidekick]

Hahaha, that movie is a Christmas tradition for me! It's great!

[@clarimm6675]

It's always on TV in Germany around christmas and it's become a staple in my family! I highly recommend it as well

[@perrilewis180]

The thing about cinderella is that it's a story about an abuse victim becoming free and finding real love. The stepsisters are ugly because they are hateful and the stepmother is evil because she is an abuser. I think a Cinderella can act out and be mean because that shows she human but there is some merit in admiring one like the animated Disney film who is kind and loving in spite all the misery she's in

[@shangc2781]

I agree. It's like Waymond's philosophy in Everything, Everywhere, All At Once. I always found Cinderella's choice to be gentle and kind wasn't naivety or weakness. It was about survival and maintaining her own moral compass

[@bethanychatman9531]

The only thing I would change in Disney's version is that Cinderella decides to leave her abusive family before meeting the prince. And because she's kind but doesn't mean she should accept mistreatment.

[@shangc2781]

@@bethanychatman9531 yeah but like with many abuse victims it's an issue of "where do you go?" Cinderella doesn't have any support network (besides mice), she doesn't have any money. What are her options? Live on the street? Find a job in the same town where her family could still find her and drag her back? Many people who are in abusive situations are often asked why didn't they just leave and the reasons are varied but their abusers use multiple forms of coercion and pressure to keep them under their thumb

[@NumeroLetter]

@@shangc2781 Additionally, a lot of people in abusive situations don't even REALIZE they're being abused. For them, they've been convinced they did something to deserve the way they were treated, or that the world outside is full of even worse people. When I was in my abusive relationship, I thought my abuser hung the moon and that anyone who spoke out against her was just cruel and vindictive for trying to break us apart, for example. It wouldn't be quite like that for Cinderella since she's not DATING her stepmother or stepsisters, but she could very well be convinced somehow that they have her best interest at heart despite the mistreatment, that deep down, they truly do care in their own twisted way. Having that night of freedom away might've been the jolt of reality she needed to find her voice and realize that her home situation wasn't something that should've been normalized and that there were people outside the home that could help her escape.

[@louise102nd]

I always felt people are too harsh on Cinderella she's in an awful situation but never loses herself she never thinks she deserves her life, she was extremely brave going to the ball and she never was waiting for someone to rescue her like people claim she just went out to have fun despite being told that is not something she deserves she didn't even realize that she was dancing with the prince

[@ReneeTopanga]

My biggest shock is that the woman who wrote promising young woman also wrote this monstrosity.

[@an_annanas]

Good lord

[@JuriAmari]

That’s shocking because I liked Promising Young Woman. Then again, film and theater are very different mediums. Nuance is a lot easier to achieve in film because you have moments to digest in real time vs theater which is more instant and it probably won’t hit as easily in post unless you talk a lot about it with someone who’s also watched the same show

[@ReneeTopanga]

@@JuriAmari Yeah I'd like to live with the assumption + hope that a lot of sarcasm, camp, and underlying messages were lost in translation b/c of ALW and the way it was directed.

[@msmazahs]

--I did not see it--but why oh why would a rape revenge story end in the protagonist's death?!!?!?

[@normalperson4sure]

honestly, try rewatching promising young woman with this in mind. i was primed before seeing the movie from seeing an interview with the creator talking about how she doesn't like female revenge movies and wanted to subvert them, and basically wrote it in a hurry because of the me too movement getting a lot of attention. seeing the movie after that made it clear what she really thinks about the themes she was dealing with, and it was honestly a hard watch!

[@Bigfatuglybabyeatingobrien]

HOW COULD THEY DO THIS TO JOHN WHAITE HE IS THE SWEETEST GUY EVER. Also any time a big shot writer says a fairy tale is "different" and "feminist" you know there is some misogynist bullshit coming

[@carolinemcgovern4488]

New drinking game: Take a sip whenever a "feminist" retelling of a fairytale ends up more misogynist then the OG fairytale it's supposed to be updating

[@jayraeday]

I can confirm that all the “alleged” stuff mentioned at 1:05:55 definitely happened. He was rude and did not hold his punches, people genuinely did end up in tears. I have friends working on the show who were there and to this day people working in the West End still talk about it because it was such a messed up way to have a “talk with the cast”.

[@jp-wc4ce]

If you want to see a better take on a 'bad' Cinderella, I recommend The Glass Slipper (1955). It introduces Cinderella as mean, bratty, a liar and even physically violent at times, but the film makes it clear her behaviour is a result of the abuse she suffers. It also has an autistic fairy godmother and several beautiful ballet scenes. It's not perfect, but I really enjoyed it and I hope more people will come to appreciate it! also I think it says something that a movie from 1955 does a better job portraying the psychological consequences of abuse than ALW's musical >.>

[@b1ggestslut]

Thank you !!

[@rotisseriepossum]

i must know more abt this autistic fairy godmother

[@leethegaygeek]

Oooh where is that available?

[@floraposteschild4184]

@@leethegaygeek A paid version is on KZbin. It's worth it; Leslie Caron makes it work.

[@rotisseriepossum]

@@leethegaygeek i just found it on dailymotion (in 2 parts)

[@morganqorishchi8181]

It's kind of uncomfortable to hear that the Broadway cast are both super talented and new, because if Andrew suddenly closes the show and screws them over like he did the West End cast, it'll be incredibly damaging to their careers but also to them psychologically, to finally get what they've been dreaming of and have it snatched away. I really hope he doesn't do that to them. But, well, we know he's not above it, either...

[@not_them]

The clips of Carrie being so excited are quite sad after how it all went down Edit: oh god and the poor incoming cast, what a cruelly thoughtless mess they made

[@soph996]

I know this is kind of incredibly irrelevant to the topic but growing up my family loved watching Fran Drescher's The Nanny. The guy she worked for was a wealthy but struggling broadway producer who had an intense hatred for ALW that was one of the best know running gags in the show. Anytime i think of ALW i think of Maxwell Sheffield's fictional hatred of this real man and i can't take anything serious. Great video!

[@CG00_]

Yes! I I love Mr Sheffield’s hatred for ALW and Cats! I rewatched the show just recently!

[@eleesiasportraits6114]

NIles (in judgemental tone): This from the man who passed on Cats. Mr Sheffield (annoyed and frustrated): It's a musical about singing CATS!!!

[@SoCalJellybean]

Oh my god, I thought I was the only weirdo who still regularly thinks about that, and giggles! 🤣

[@noemitamas4066]

I need to watch this show!

[@gee159]

I’m from the UK and the continued existence of the House of Lords is so embarrassing to me like we should not still have unelected rich people involved in lawmaking

[@moosenman]

As someone not in the UK, the House of Lords always kind of confuse me because they all seem very curmudgeon-y. Then again that’s also most American politicians so. Same boat.

[@Jess-jl2tx]

At the same time, the Lords does make sure we have good legislation. The House of Commons is bad at writing it and doesn't have the time or expertise to write good legislation

[@scarletnight1077]

@@Jess-jl2tx well we could always elect people to do that instead of unvoted rich people

[@minaballerina]

@@scarletnight1077 as a law student i became kinda turned on to the idea of the house of lords. they do do some important stuff and bc theyre not beholden to elections sometimes they can actually do more progressive stuff that elected politicians can’t do but there’s definitely still some people who shouldn’t be there

[@Jess-jl2tx]

@scarlet night I think we should definitely get rid of the hereditary and political appointments and actually put a limit on numbers. My preferred option is a part elected house since the crossbenchers are actually skilled people who we probably don't want to politicise. It's just so annoying that nothing's been done since 2010 😒

[@theoneandonlymichaelmccormick]

I became irrationally angry at the West End’s script referring to Helen of Troy as “That one goddess from Greece, you know, who launched all the ships”.

[@whatteamwildcats4033]

That gave me an internal primal reaction that I cannot describe aside from "no, absolutely fucking not"

[@theoneandonlymichaelmccormick]

@@whatteamwildcats4033 David Zippel needs to be stopped.

[@CJMGalaxy]

Oh my god that's embarrassing

[@theoneandonlymichaelmccormick]

@@CJMGalaxy Me, or the lyric?

[@CJMGalaxy]

@@theoneandonlymichaelmccormick oh, absolutely not you, the lyric!

[@Catnipqueen]

Absolutely dying at “Malala has been through enough, Andrew Lloyd Webber” 😂😂😂

[@imrastar7055]

Best retelling of Cinderella is the movie Ever After starring Drew Barrymore, which turns it into historical fiction (so no magic) and has Da Vinci act as the “fairy godmother” helping Cinderella. It’s more feminist than this version and it came out over 20 years ago. It really emphasizes the themes of getting out of an abusive situation, one of the step sisters actually gets sling with Cinderella (Danielle in this version), and Danielle is a true rebel who cares about societal injustice and shows the Prince how the system keeps people in poverty.

[@mish375]

Also Jacqueline (the nice stepsister) is also treated badly by her mother and spoiled sister, which makes the family dynamic feel realistic and pushes her to side with Danielle once she's had enough. The thing I love about Ever After is that every character feels like a real person with their own character arcs and struggles. Plus Danielle meets the Prince before the Masquerade Ball and they form a romantic bond that grows throughout the film. The romance felt realistic.

[@causticwit]

I absolutely ADORE "Ever After"! ❤

[@jackieprew6577]

I love that I can always rely on Ashley to be on the same hyper-fixation I am and drop the perfect well-researched video at exactly the right time

[@ashleynorton]

We’re just so in sync

[@doomcomiing]

omg the way i was thinking teh same thing i immediately texted my friends ToT

[@dominicthedonkey8218]

Samesies, Ashley is the hyperfixation source of all time

[@marabanara]

It’s the best synchronicity, isn’t it?!

[@leahn9015]

It’s so wild how ALW’s thought process seemed to be “if only the pandemic didn’t happen this show would be a hit”… like sure maybe some of the money issues wouldn’t have been as severe and the actors wouldn’t have had to struggle as much but like the show… is still not good…

[@noodle3218]

and also if only he weren't independently rich himself in order to help mitigate covid money issues... if only $1.3 BILLION was enough. so sad yet, people like Trevor Noah, Seth Meyers (and I'm sure others) managed to pay their staffs, during the pandemic even when things were shut down. Yes they are obviously still rich, but their $72 and $26 million, respectively, is a hell of a lot less. and yes theater costs significantly more, but ALW solely blames the pandemic over and over (you know, when he's not berating the cast even though they are consistency the one positive part of reviews). I'd argue that if he wasn't so arrogant, he could have listened to feedback and made a better show with the stellar casts he's been given

[@annaolson4828]

I think that's why ALW is still trying so hard to push Love Never Dies whenever and wherever he can. He doesn't understand that his material could just be not worth most people's time and money.

[@naomistarlight6178]

meanwhile: The Spongebob Musical: huh what pandemic?

[@EllyFLuft]

​@@naomistarlight6178 I think that show is popular because it's fun and light.

[@elizabethsmith7224]

ALW I love you've musicals but for the past few years you've been...ehh. Are you okay, like are you going through a crisis or something, need to talk???

[@august1451]

That letter reading clip had me HOWLINGGG I can't believe they booed his name TWICE and the whole cast is just standing there laughing 😭😭

[@paulieboy6644]

I wish Stephen Sondheim had been the one to adapt Phantom of the Opera to the stage and brought the same energy he brought to Sweeney Todd. That would have been amazing

[@FTMdoom]

You making sets and puppets is a whole new level of dedication

[@ashleynorton]

I wasn't messing around

[@noodle3218]

@@ashleynorton honestly, this entire video was stellar (I couldn't believe it had been 2 hours when you said it), but the utter joy your puppet show story time gave me is impossible to truly articulate. Thank you--I hadn't laughed that hard in a long time. Your effort and humor was not for naught!

[@janeeyre1990]

After falling in love with the Puppet History series on Watcher, any contemporary use of puppets gets me unreasonably excited.

[@ScoutOlson]

CInderella 3 is the most badass the character has ever been. The scene where she's riding her horse in the rain, dress torn and hair askew, determined to stop her stepsister from marrying the prince? Perfection. Plus it's Jennifer Hale voicing her and that's badass in itself. & Juliet is a much better stage adaptation of a story that's been done to death.

[@noodle3218]

OMG I UTTERLY ADORE A TWIST IN TIME!! (sorry for yelling; I just love it too much and so few people have even heard of it). That movie is singlehandedly what made me reevalute Cinderella and honesly realize how good of a person she is and not the wimp I had foolishly once believed. Plus the prince actually got to have thoughts, the king was adorbs, and the Anastasia / Baker storyline brings me so much joy.

[@thenorthernbard3688]

Omg Cinderella III is SUCH a fun movie I absolutely adore it! Also yeah I totally agree I love how determined Cinderella was to get the love and happy ending she more than deserved

[@theoneandonlymichaelmccormick]

Jennifer Hale improves everything.

[@emmadrzycimski3761]

If there is one Disney movie I will defend with my last breath, it is Cinderella III: A Twist in Time. That movie single-handedly took the boring, almost one-dimensional characters of the first movie and elevated them to characters that rivaled ones from the Disney Renaissance. I can’t count how many times I have rewatched that masterpiece. It is seriously one of the best Disney sequels ever.

[@bepisthescienceman4202]

Girlboss cinderella and her Himbo husband

[@clementinedanger]

I'd heard that this show was a 2010s Buzzfeed Feminism nightmare and I was not prepared to learn it's so much worse. It's the worst tropes of the 90s mixed with the cringiest impulses of the 2000s. It's the Bimbettes from Beauty and the Beast and the Triplets from Aladdin getting a whole sassy freak show next to Jasmine and Belle. It's Belle's town actually being aware of the daily mean song she sings about them. Promising Young Woman has been on my watchlist for ages but if this is the level of female empowerment we're operating on I'll probably not bother. Jesus Christ Andy. What happened to us? Haven't we been through enough?

[@bigjedimullet]

Promising Young Woman starts very strong and ends up kinda BS (at least in my opinion). I feel like combined with ALW’s overbearing personality and what seems like a subconscious desire to punish female characters for not being nice to the sad boys who only wanted to love them, this was a creative team that was never going to make a truly progressive Cinderella.

[@clementinedanger]

@@bigjedimullet Maybe it's just me and my geeky folklorist ways, but I was never really on board with the whole Princesses But Make Them Feminist phase we went through. I associate it mostly with very earnest early 2000s creatives on the old blogosphere. It was a well-meaning enough goal but I really think it came down to a lot of wasted effort, and we never really got anything worthwhile out of it. That ALW of all people jumped on that in the 2020s is bugfuck insane to me.

[@msmazahs]

@@clementinedanger it's funny when they make princesses feminists, like, didn't they have serfs!?

[@clementinedanger]

@@msmazahs Sic semper Cinderella

[@MyratheDunmer]

The B&tB villagers deserved that song, to be fair. They’re a load of Gaston-worshippers who are alarmingly quick to turn on a completely harmless old man when Gaston decides he should get put in an asylum

[@luciakaminski779]

It always confuses me when people think Cinderella changed and went to the ball for the Prince, when even the classic Disney version has her saying to the Prince something like "Huh this ball is all about the Prince and I haven't even seen him yet, oh well! 🤷"

[@venus-jr7cu]

the way alw has recently tried to incorporate feminism into his work was also super apparent in his 2018 revamp of his show starlight express. he completely overhauled the show and cited it’s sexism as one of the main reasons; the changes that were made were getting rid of the characters more sexual dialogue and costume choices, but he didn’t add any new personality to them to replace that, so they are now cartoonishly characterless with no personality or drive in the story besides their relation to the male characters. they added a song that’s a ‘girlboss anthem’ where the female characters sing about how they don’t need men to tell them what to do, but then the whole show is still them acting only for their respective love interests and needing to be saved and affirmed by them. i honestly almost think the sexism is worse now because at least in the previous version the female characters had motivation (even if that motive was sexist), now the characters are just completely motiveless and pure in a way that irks me and makes them feel borderline childlike. i can definitely see how skewed his view of sexism and gender is.

[@LadyDragonbane]

To this day it frustrates me that to be more "feminist" and "empower women" they ditched basically ALL the confident female characters, and replaced Dinah's journey towards strength and confidence for..... nothing. The "girlboss anthem" doesn't even work as advertised since in the show it's carriages versus engines, with a female engine as a main bitch and agitator. Girl power or carriage power, make up your mind, Andy! If at least the song told us something about the characters I wouldn't dislike it so much.

[@KraakenTowers]

Now I'm imagining what Guys and Dolls would be like if they tried to restage it to be "feminist." The female character motivations in that show are not great, but ALL of the characters in that show are kind of terrible people falling in love with each other, so I'm imagining a version where it's two jackass male leads and two cardboard female leads.

[@juliamavroidi8601]

Finally someone mentions Stex! It has to be the worst reworking of a show I've ever seen. If they wanted a more modern/feminist take on the story they would have had to heavily rewrite the entire plot... or just make Electra female. That was literally all that was needed. They're even female on the original conceot album.

[@charlottesaunders5457]

the one problem with all black is that it's incredibly hard to light well, especially if there's other characters that dress in much lighter costumes. additionally it tends to blend into the background and isn't as visually interesting in a very saturated design environment

[@jasminelambert3753]

That’s such a good point especially since there isn’t much in terms of set pieces and the background looks like it’s black too in the clips. I honestly wish they had dressed her up in a color palette that was completely different. The colors seem to be kind of saturated and more autumnal. It would have been cool to see her in super bright or pastels. Or honestly it would’ve made more sense if she was in kind of grungey colors and everyone else was in super bright punchy colors

[@noodle3218]

yeah I'm not for the all black either in this instance. I loved it for Lydia [Beetlejuice], but there it fit her character and went with her vocal/song style and also wonderfully contrasted with the other characters (plus yay for black in a show about death). I honestly didn't mind the grunge look from the west end (or what i've seen of it) since it contrasted so well with the other characters. And while her new costume and hair honestly really grew on me (and the funky hair seems to go with Linedy's portrayal of her so I like that), I definitely agree that the color palette matching the ensemble is the issue here. I don't know that I really care what color scheme as long as it's different (though I do find it interesting that all the promo colors are that neon red with the black plus a tiny bit of white& light pink), but I haven't really seen Linedy's cinderella wear anything resembling that in any show pics...? but whatever, that's a minor thing

[@charlottesaunders5457]

@@noodle3218 all black can be done but you have to put a lot of consideration into it. For example, in beetlejuice a lot of the other costumes are similar values - they all use a lot of black and grey. Also, the background tends to be fairly monochromatic and dark, and is broken up by lots of lines, giving lydia's solid mass of warmer black a lot of contrast. lydia pops because she was designed, from the start, to be wearing all black - a shift to it in the middle of a run in a show where there's lots of people wearing light colors would be rough at best

[@thenorthernbard3688]

Yeah that’s why Elphaba’s costumes in Wicked are navy blue at the start and then in her full witch look she’s got a lot of dark reds and green hues in the garment. It helps bring a lot more depth to the costume on stage.

[@cjboyo]

You can absolutely do alt outfits without them being all-black too!!! It shows a lack of research and creativity

[@komos3719]

Cinderella's whole life was working a shift under the heels of nasty, abusive people and the ball is her night off plus a hot guy. It's so blindingly straightforward.

[@morganalabeille5004]

Okay yes the Phantom is a serial killer but I wouldn't exactly describe him as prolific. He kills 3 people, that's literally the bare minimum to be considered a serial killer.

[@neele8262]

also phantom of the opera is a book and alw just adapted it into a musical. idk if he did a good job, i‘ve never read the book and tbh i don’t know too much about the musical version‘s plot. aka i‘m not sure if you can really call (ALW‘s) phantom of the opera a selfinsert fanfic

[@coatimundi69]

​@@neele8262 its probably more like a Hamilton situation where the guy who adapted it related to the main male lead to an almost uncomfortable degree

[@vanillaseahorse4228]

@@neele8262Have read the book: The musical is mostly faithful but I do think it romanticizes and softens Erik’s (the Phantom’s) character more than the novel did. In the novel he was much more grotesque looking and he was a lot more ‘mean’ to Christine for a lack of a better word and was more murderous. He wasn’t really meant to be a love interest in the novel, he was clearly the antagonist the whole time. Christine had looked up to him and she had judged him for his soul and not his appearance, and maybe something like romance might have happened had he not acted like a monster. Christine felt compassion for him but both she and him understood that she could never return his feelings after everything he had done, and though he was distraught he was okay with that. Him letting her go showed his character growth by showing emotional maturity for maybe the first time in his life and acknowledging that he can’t make her love him. Its explained that he did have a human heart and he was largely shaped by his environment, and in a better world that didn’t shame him for his appearance he might have been a good person. It’s really mature and touching for the time it was written. Do I think ALW made it a self insert fanfiction? Ehhhhhhh not really but kinda. It’s not like he made the whole thing up but there are some aspects to the way Erik is portrayed that makes me think (in foresight of knowing that he made the part of Christine with his then-lover Sarah Brightman in mind) he put a bit of himself in the role. I don’t think he intentionally made it with the purpose of inserting himself in it, but over time I think he sort of leaned into it and (intentionally or unintentionally) made him more sympathetic because he saw himself in the character. It drags a little in some parts but I recommend giving the book a try, it’s not very long and I liked it. There’s also the 1925 silent film adaptation with Lon Chaney (who did his own makeup!) which is super faithful to the book with the exception of the ending. You can watch the entire thing for free on KZbin in HD and it’s one of my favorite silent films because Lon Chaney steals the entire show.

[@judeconnor-macintyre9874]

I mean the Zodiac Killer only has five confirmed kills (he just claimed a lot more), and he's prolific so three isn't some crazy low number. It also depends on how you define what makes a prolific serial killer. Are you grading based solely off of kill count? Why not factor in the terror that the killer invokes in the community?

[@noemitamas4066]

While the musical only has one line about the Phantom's backstory in the Persian royal court, if we go by what's written in the novel his bodycount could be much MUCH higher. 😬

[@kayla3751]

That moment when the director pulled out the letter from ALW and everyone booed sums up the Bad Cinderella experience

[@charlottesaunders5457]

I'm really happy you mentioned the impact on stagehands. We've definitely been really hit, especially considering how a lot of technical work is short, gig-type things which do not provide really stable income or access to health care

[@emilyfisher5634]

It's never simple with Andrew. He's always got drama. The cat tried to save us from Love Never Dies and his sacrifice was in VAIN

[@lemoncakeslemonade5430]

Carrie was HUGE, she majorly drove ticket sales, just because fans wanted to see her.

[@lizhano5617]

The fact that I grew up in a very underwhelming town called Belleville makes this so much funnier

[@kkuudandere]

"Belleville, the town of the most perfect, beautiful, stunning people" Belleville, Michigan? I mean I don't know about all THAT, but I'm sure they're fine people-

[@paigeconnelly4244]

I had to study War Horse for my Drama GCSE and we compared the story across the different mediums (Book, Play, and film). There's SOOOO much more behind the scenes. Did you know Kit Harrington was the main character (Albert) in the original cast and was cast WHILE STILL studying his degree? And the puppeteers (actors controlling the horses) take horse psychology lessons so if the actor accidentally catches the horse's eye, they will react like a real horse (nervous and skittish) - so no one performance is the same.

[@ava4512]

Okay I’m a PotO nerd and while ALW may have projected a little bit in his musical, the original book was still very “young talented protege falls for mysterious sexy pro/murderer”. It was more one-sided in the book, Christine moreso listened because she wanted to improve at first and afterward because she pitied him & was terrified of who he’d hurt if she refused as opposed to any romantic feelings, but not entirely made up lol Love Never Dies though. THAT is blasphemous

[@bigjedimullet]

There’s a lyric in Love Never Dies that, in talking about Christine choosing Raoul, says “she chose beauty and youth over genius and art” and the first time I heard it my blood ran cold. I felt like I got an insight into Andy’s nasty little mind that I didn’t want and am now stuck with.

[@keevr.3902]

Love Never Dies also did my girl Meg so fucking dirty and for that I'll never forgive ALW 😭

[@somedragonbastard]

​@@bigjedimullet "she chose beauty and youth over genius and art"?? She chose the sweet guy who didn't kill people over the sewer ghoul who's a serial murderer

[@cyrc9837]

@@keevr.3902I love Meg why’d he do that to her 😭

[@celiaeven878]

Adding "bad" to the title makes it easier to hide the "bad" reviews, too. They take back control of their presence online, so that now you type Bad Cinderella show… you get them, and their name, not their reviews. I have seen that recently in another video (can't remember what it was but same story), and if you're not aware of it, it works. I don't know anything about musicals, we barely have them where I live, and I thought this was the name all along. I even was ready to comment that the character was simultaneously too bad for Cinderella and not bad enough (she is just… bleh the rest of the show it seems) to be called "bad Cinderella"… until I realized she was NOT called Bad in the beginning…

[@sandstormxx]

Abused gothgirl x spare prince is a great fun take for Cinderella and this probably would be fine if it was more about being anti conformity and finding people who truly understand you and a whole lot shorter. what if cinderella introduced the prince to her goth friends. what if showed her that she didn't need to hide away in dark colours all the time. something like that.

[@thenorthernbard3688]

Yes I love Cinderella adaptations where they help each other grow that’s why I love Ever After so much! Your idea sounds hella fun honestly!

[@naomistarlight6178]

I don't see Goth fashion as "hiding away in dark colors" it's very much about standing out.

[@charlie2.048]

I feel like if the show had spent some more time being workshopped for plot it could have been really great.

[@moonflower5553]

Love it, but "anti conformity" and "you don't need to hide in dark clothes" is kind of contradictory. Also that's not really how goths work.

[@sandstormxx]

Hm my mistake in focussing on the clothes aspect- I more mean both Cinderella and The Prince are insecure, Cinderella is just better at hiding it. A version where he encourages her that the world won’t just turn against her because she has been abused and cast aside before. Because the cagey personality can be a front to not let people in because she’s been hurt before. She could have a moment where she dresses ‘properly’ for the ball and she enjoys herself the goth aspect of her and maybe she and the prince could dress alternative together. I still mean for her to be goth but not to hide away so much from the world.

[@nestgoblin7199]

Puppetry elevated this to an incredible level. 10/10 I love this video

[@M0NDAY2FRIDAY]

Yes! The puppets were so charming and creative!!!

[@cartilagehead6326]

Lloyd Webber didn’t just get inspiration from popular music, he straight up “borrowed” from it liberally-most famously in the main motif of the Phantom of the Opera theme, which is basically a modified Pink Floyd riff. He took so much from Pink Floyd’s discography that they literally wrote him (very unflatteringly) into a song.

[@Quackervoltz]

What song

[@theryanbard]

Pretty sure they're talking about the song "Echoes", the main theme from Phantom is basically just a simplified version of the riff after the choruses

[@Quackervoltz]

@@theryanbard No I mean what song was Floyd written into

[@cartilagehead6326]

@@Quackervoltz the main motif/theme to Phantom of the Opera

[@bigjedimullet]

I love that when it was pointed out to Roger Watters that he could in fact sue ALW for plagiarism, his response was basically, “I could, but I’ve got therapy.”

[@fluorescentalien5204]

im not a theater person, but when you talked about how much more charming the show was in person I understood completely. Especially when going to the theater, or even seeing a movie in a theater, I am suddenly so much more forgiving of technical failings because its just so fun and immersive to go out and see something. And all the more when you can tell the actors are putting real heart into it (even if theyre working with some subpar writing).

[@peniscapture068]

Cinderella is about escaping abuse. Her getting dressed in a gown was never attached to getting a man, it was about escaping her home life, blending in, and feeling normal for once. It quite literally getting rid of the burden your heart carries when you have to be the bigger person for years and letting yourself enjoy a moment of peace. As someone who lived in an abusive household, the loneliness, the pain, and even in the Grimm brothers' revenge on those abusers, is all a story of trying to get better. Her stepmother, constantly dragging her back and keeping her too busy to escape, is very real to what escaping abuse is like. You are fighting with everything, and that ball is like her version of paradise. Her version of what a better life looks like. It was never about a man in the first place. that is why he doesn't have a name.

[@Qrtuop]

It'd 100% about getting a man, you are all seriously reaching at this point lmao

[@Nicolesid1]

In the 2010s ALW did reality shows for finding actors for his shows. I watched Over the Rainbow, and watching him "judging" a group of girls from like 16 to 25 was ummm unsettling for sure. The lip licking...😳 Side note: His whooing of Sierra Boggess for love never dies gave those same creep vibes Also, video idea for you the ALW reality shows going through them, selections, and where are they now😅

[@ashleynorton]

How did I never come across an Andrew Lloyd webber reality show?? I'm watching immediately

[@janejudyjune9190]

@@ashleynorton There were actually multiple! How Do You Solve a Problem Like Maria? (Maria in The Sound of Music) Any Dream Will Do (Joseph in Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat) I'd Do Anything. (Nancy in Oliver) Over the Rainbow (Dorothy in Wizard of Oz) He was involved in the Canadian version of the Dorothy one as well, though not appearing in every episode

[@pleh7019]

​@Ashley Norton You should. I'm an actor and when I was in uni theatre school I had several friends/acquaintes on some of these shows... There is so much to say! The behind the scenes and personal dramas caused by the Canadian OTR in particular was... intense 😅

[@charmax88]

@janejudyjune9190 his reaction to Jody winning the Nancy one was particularly awful, he couldn't make it any clearer he was unhappy with the public's choice

[@yabe-kfptentacultist]

My god I remember watching some of those shows, especially the joseph one...

[@doityourselfbombs]

deeply obsessed w the fact that ALW and Andrew Lloyd Webber have the same number of syllables

[@Nicolesid1]

He has to inconvenience us no matter what😅

[@trevorBbracket]

do you think he'd really hate it if he was called AL dubz instead

[@MadameCorgi]

@@trevorBbracket andy?

[@ashleynorton]

I really didn't think that through. I used ALW in my notes because of course that's less letters. but I did not process the difference saying it out loud at all lol

[@colinbanning9416]

Oh, there it is, I just didn't go deep enough. Yeah, Ws are the worst.

[@liliadesouza3597]

tbf when you say “as if the british government have nothing else to focus on” (24:05) you’re completely right, they were very focused on partying and going against social distancing regulations.

[@allykaman9340]

I only ever saw Linedy in the main promo material, but seeing your assessment of Linedy's actual performance just makes the way they marketed the show that much more incompetent. The promo gave me the sense that "this cinderella is trying to hard to convince us she's cool," but that makes perfect sense if her character ISN't a stone cold badass and actually IS just authentically offbeat. It's a completely different vibe and they totally missed it.

[@victorias1227]

Haven't watched the vid yet so I don't know if you did this on purpose, but releasing this the day before Andrew Lloyd Webber's birthday (which is always, appropriately and hilariously, overlooked in favor of Sondheim's birthday) is absolute icon behavior. And as a superfan of gossiping about ALW's super villain behavior, THANK YOU for a nearly 2 hour video about it, holy crap.

[@robertjenkins9771]

Demi Lavato is so cringe. “Ho mermaid”?? Ariel was 16 lmao just because she thought she was in love and he happened to be a prince does not make her a “ho”. This is the same issue with girls attacking girls for no good reason and is very anti feminism even if you try to mask it with rhetoric like “because Cinderella worked for what she got!” Okay, Cinderella also married a prince lol

[@bookshelfhoney]

Yeah, Cinderella definitely didn't work her way to the top and pull herself up by her bootstraps. She had a magic fairy godmother to help her to the ball to get that prince charming otherwise she'd have just worked and stayed poor her whole life

[@tarotsushima3332]

Buzzfeed feminism had really turned into a NLOG shitfest at the end of it

[@ArchieRatsworth]

@@bookshelfhoney Ella wasn't even poor. She was a rich girl that was robbed and forced into servitude, only for her dead mum's old friend to check in right when she needed some help.

[@bethanychatman9531]

​@@ArchieRatsworth yeah, she wasn't benefiting from the money at that point so she was personally poor. But the point remains the same , she didn't "work" to become a princess at all. Both stories are completely fine the way they are, nothing degrades either character, Demi's just annoying as f*ck.

[@avelynn5976]

someone needs to explain why women who claim to be feminists hate other women so much

[@rbfloat]

It's incredible how ALW has gone from being a beloved icon in Broadway and musical theater to being a joke. He must realize that despite his history and hits, he's old news. Some creatives can still create, but those people keep their egos from getting in the way. They understand they're old and accept that someone might replace them one day. ALW seems to think that since he has created some popular musicals that have stood the test of time, he's not brand new. He's old. There is always going to be someone younger and fresher. ALW thinks he can treat people like crap because of his legacy while not realizing he's hurting his legacy.

[@sas.tronaut5055]

the thing about dating a cheater is that you dont win. even if they leave their partner “for you”, youre now with someone willing to throw away a current relationship when they get bored of it

[@emilyhill8639]

I actually attended the pilot performance at the Palladium in 2020, I got the tickets free just by checking my emails at the right time. it was by far the weirdest theatre experience I've ever had, we had to order drinks/snacks with a qr code and they were brought directly to our seats, and it was the only time we were allowed to take our masks off. it was also more of a concert than an actual musical, so there was only one performer, plus I think some backing singers and a band (all socially distanced), and the set was only about 45 minutes. The whole thing for me was slightly overshadowed though because about 20 minutes before it all started, Taylor Swift announced folklore so it was all I could think about lmao.

[@justice9818]

you’re so real for that though would also be distracted by taylor

[@minathermopolis2551]

felt like Britney Spears just now finding out Andrew Lloyd Webber is straight

[@youforgotthepicklesssss]

so real i thought he had a husband

[@1rockcrawford]

I think he’s bi, honestly. But as a conservative and product of his time, he’s never going to admit that.

[@pandakatiefominz]

​@@1rockcrawford Is there anything to suggest he's bi besides being a man who cares about musical theatre?

[@amandalynn4979]

​@@pandakatiefominz May I direct you to the shirtless and/or typecast sexy men background characters of his musicals? Fr though, as a bisexual I don't think he's queer.

[@maffieduran]

The priest being a spoon in the recreation is the best part. Also, I find the instances of forcible kissing to be very much not feminist approved.

[@naomistarlight6178]

The story of the "Andrew Lloyd Weber memorial pool" had me in stitches XD good for her!

[@wanderinghistorian]

I don't "call" things much but I totally called prince Charming's surprise return and orientation. As soon as you said he'd run off and disappeared and was presumed dead I said, "He's not dead he ran off because he was gay." BAM! Called that! OK I've had my moment. It's weird though that he ran off because everyone seems to be fine with him being gay. Oh well.

[@mammoneymelon]

he ran off because he was going to be coerced into marriage when he didn't love the person. he met the man he was in love with after he ran away. i don't think he ran away because of his sexuality

[@AnzuAi]

I work in a nearby theatre in covent garden and they were literally giving Cinderella tickets away for free to staff of other theatres because they couldn’t fill the auditorium 😬😬😬 (unrelated but I was also working the desk at my theatre the night that we closed for covid and the entire house was emptied, with hundreds of people filing out just 5 minutes after the curtain was meant to go up because the PM made the announcement. This video made me flashback to the most surreal moment of my life.)

[@celestiastra13]

They're GIVING THEM AWAY for free?? Omg

[@marym4159]

It’s also interesting to make Cinderella… vengeful and mean and, well, bad, as the premise of a musical. Cinderella has an enduring kindness and ability to have hope even after years of abuse; nothing she went through broke her spirits. I feel like if you’re going to change that it’d have to put more work into reframing her her childhood/adolescence and it’s effect on her, since it’s a major change to her character ?

[@jasmineindoors]

It’s actually heartbreaking to see how happy Carrie is to be cast in a ALW show. She’s like so honored to have a note signed by him 😢

[@booksvsmovies]

As someone whose been following the (Bad) Cinderella controversy since MickeyJo Theatre's first reaction to the cast album I'm so ready for your 2-hour deep dive

[@kaydwessie296]

My mom watches The Today Show and I instantly hated Bad Cinderella when it started getting marketing cause they wouldn't explain what it was or justify its stupid name, then they made the chick sing the whole "Call me Bad Cinderella" song IN ITS ENTIRETY with no background music. I don't like to call things cringe, but I wanted to die through most of that.

[@jane-mulcahy]

omg I go to school in London so I saw the show on the West End literally the day before it closed (because drama.) The energy of the cast was amazing, and a lot of the production elements were also exciting (that rotating stage was genuinely sick!) but as we were leaving the theater I remember saying to my friend that the story felt like a Disney channel original movie lmao. Also the actress playing the stepmother did have a really funny character voice, BUT it was also so intense that half of her lines were completely unintelligible. She also smoked a REAL cigarette on stage! Multiple times! And that "I know who you are" song between the stepmother and queen is truly so weird in concept that I honestly didn't even really understand what was supposed to be happening in it until you explained it. And ALSO, that part where the prince starts breakdancing was actually life changing in the West End version. Up until that point I'd been a little disappointed with that actor, he was super cute and a fine actor but not the best singer. So when he started dancing that absolutely insane choreography, not only was I so surprised that I like audibly yelled, but it was this huge revelation like OH that's why he's not the best singer, he's a dancer! I wondered at the time if they'd written in that dance break specifically for that actor. And thank you for this, apparently I am not on the musical theater side of the internet anymore because I didn't know about half of this stuff. NFTs???

[@PointsofData]

NFT's are a cryptocurrency/blockchain/defi thing (finance if you didn't understand any of those words), not a musical theatre thing.

[@jane-mulcahy]

@@PointsofData I know what NFTs and cryptocurrency are, I meant I must be out of the musical theater loop because I was not aware that Cinderella the musical had made NFTs

[@user-lk2qf4rt3m]

Story. There is a beautiful house called Wightwick Manor open to the public in England, and maintained by the National Trust. It is filled with many wonderful pieces of pre-raphaelite art, but is at its core, a warm family home. Well, in the parlour, there is a harp and a piano forte. Generous musicians who tour the home are allowed to sit at the instruments and give little performances - to the absolute delight of guests sharing the space, many of whom are very young or quite elderly. It's rather magical. Anyway, Andrew Lloyd Weber visited them and refused to play the piano.

[@oliviasmith9033]

It always makes me so sad to look back on how happy and excited Carrie was 🥺

[@zarabee2880]

She seems really sweet I really hope she gets more opportunities ❤

[@cottage-core_]

+ I love her🥺

[@nopenoodles255]

Don’t know if this is obvious to others but I’ve just realised they rebranded to ‘bad Cinderella’ so that when people google ‘ALW Cinderella bad’ they’ll get this broadway revival, not the crap shit ALW did lol

[@bjorkapologist2834]

i have to admit i was part of the group bashing on bad cinderella’s cast (broadway, not cultured enough to have known it b4 then) but then i saw another tiktok of this theatre “critic” walking out before intermission and it baffled me that someone who said they loved theatre would treat a cast and crew’s hard work like a movie they rented and decided they didnt like. then i was like OH thats ME i’m doing that!! i gotta stop. learning more about them just reaffirmed how wrong i was and how happy i am to see new, beautifully diverse, incredibly talented actors on broadway.

[@averyeml]

Here’s the thing- I also LOVE that costume. But the point is for her to be Not Like Other Girls, so they shouldn’t have the extras dressed in the same colors as her so she looks extra “different”

[@eiya3]

Apollo really launching the gift of prophecy at Carrie there when she said she was waiting for it to go wrong.

[@sir-dame-sander]

I love this show. definitely not because it’s good, but because it fascinates me. the backstage drama, the directorial decisions that seem almost purposefully bad, and most importantly the cast putting their all into it anyway. it’s unintentional camp, which is by far the best kind. I can’t wait to see this monster if it tours. I fucking love “bad” theatre, and I’m sure once I’m able to see it it’ll get a special place in my heart just like its soul sisters diana the musical, spiderman turn off the dark, love never dies, the original carrie, and every other painfully earnest broadway flop. truly wish nothing but the best for the cast and crew of this show

[@booksvsmovies]

I totally agree! The initial lack of awareness of the flaws of the scrip are part of what makes it kinda endearing

[@MadameCorgi]

Same girl same It's the new Diana the Musicial for me

[@Jordan_Starr]

Now you mention it, there's definitely a parallel to be drawn between Cinderella getting excited to go to the ball and see the palace and meet the prince and then having it all stripped away from her at the last minute by people who were supposed to be her family, and the way ALW treated the cast who thought they were about to make their big debut stage performance / have a defining career moment only to find out by email on a Sunday that it wasn't going ahead.

[@YelenaSkunky]

We really need a show like MST3K, but for theatre...

[@Kay-kg6ny]

Fun fact: Laurence Olivier did a whole movie in blackface. So I think his ghost will have to just deal with a one-time mispronunciation of his name. 😊

[@MrPooleish]

I love seeing that "It's about cats" interview every time. Never gets old.

[@sophie7780]

i've seen that video of andrew lloyd webber's letter on cinderella's closing a million times but every time "costly mistake" comes up i can't help but replay it over and over to see every cast member's reaction lmao they are SO OVER IT

[@carolinemcgovern4488]

Hear me out here for a new concept: Belleville turns out to be a hexed town like Wandavision's Westview- and Cinderella discovers it was created by the Fairy godmother, and possibly the Queen- to place a level of unnatural uncanny beauty on the town (Maybe it forces the women against each other as well and forces them to be all shallow to really drive the beauty home)- it's now up to Cinderella to break the spell (With help from Sebatstion and perhaps Adele too if we want her to be redeemed) to break the spell and save the brainwashed women

[@EmmaCreatively]

I love this, trademark it now!

[@bigjedimullet]

If you play with this, I would lean into the aspect of the spell pitting the women against each other, and would have the protagonists explicitly realize that the reason the spell does that is because if the women realized how much they actually had in common, they would band together to overwhelm those in power, or at least have enough support in each other to make significant changes in their lives.

[@maffieduran]

2004 Stepford Wives vibes.

[@JuriAmari]

@@maffieduran that would be a brilliant staging idea

[@carolinemcgovern4488]

@@maffieduran Well I listened to the podcast you're wrong about's episode on the Stepford wives the night before I pitched this so baisically I was inspired by the Stepford wives.

[@SuperNuclearUnicorn]

22:00 feeling a weird level of pride for you giving props to Australia for our covid response. Our vaccine uptake was pretty high, the government looked after us pretty well, and ultimately the strict conditions led to better results sooner

[@janeeyre1990]

As a disabled person still isolating with disabled family in the US, I really wished that we lived in Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, or any other country that took the pandemic seriously and valued public health over personal freedom. I know that Australia and New Zealand have had issues with deporting disabled residents or not letting disabled people immigrate in, but when it really mattered, your governments prioritized the lives of all residents, including the disabled and chronically ill. You should be proud. Your country took care of its people. All my country cares about is money and business.

[@iwakeupandboomimarat]

as someone in the uk i was jealous of u guys 😭😭😭

[@hannahb2306]

It’s not a perfect show but Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt had a subplot about how Cats is really just a bunch of randoms who slip into the ensemble unnoticed so they can spend decades pickpocketing from guests

[@noellebonfiglio3740]

I never thought I would willingly watch a puppet version of a musical on KZbin but here we are

[@bejeweledwalrus]

ayooo fellow POTS sufferer 1:37:45 I wasn't expecting to hear that, I never hear POTS mentioned much on social media. Thank you for dealing with blood pressure drops and then sitting through the entirety of bad cinderella in the noble quest to dunk on ALW.

[@tiacat11]

Losing my mind because she's out here describing something I've had my whole life that everyone thought was just me being dramatic/blood sugar whatever like it's nothing. Thank you for giving me a name to research!!

[@bogosbinted5734]

The "Hal, it's just Cats" clip is one of my favorite things and I'm delighted with your inclusion of it

[@KateWood]

The "most attractive town" competition is probably a cultural adaptation. That's an actual thing in the UK, though it's more about gardens and landscaping than how much plastic surgery the peasants undergo. It's associated with snooty Home Counties villages, making it a good shorthand for exactly this sort of town.

[@bmlgordon]

It’s a plot point in “Hot Fuzz” too, isn’t it?