The Great DPS Debate feat. Kragie, Fareeha, Fitzyhere & Deku

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Timestamps
0:00 Opening Thoughts
8:15 DPS Is The Weakest Role?
16:40 Is Balancing The Issue?
39:20 Role Passives & The DPS Passive
47:08 What Is a Healthy State for DPS?
58:30 Sombra
1:16:48 Hitscan (Sojourn, Soldier, Widow, Ashe & Cassidy)
1:28:30 Bastion
1:41:48 Junkrat
1:51:27 Echo
1:57:31 Genji
2:04:50 Hanzo
2:11:30 Mei
2:20:31 Pharah
2:28:28 Reaper
2:36:30 Symmetra
2:43:09 Torbjorn
2:49:50 Tracer
2:57:45 Concluding Thoughts

[@GroupUp]

This episode was recorded on 13th October 2023. Podcast links below! If you're enjoying this content, why not check out SVB's stream (www.twitch.tv/svb_ ) or his second channel The Soak (youtube.com/@TheSoak ) where he does movie, TV & anime breakdowns! The best way to support the podcast is still www.patreon.com/svb Soundcloud: soundcloud.com/ow_svb/great-dps-debate Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/6sRWutKTc0gnWuguo62Vpa Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/svbs-group-up/id1490256265

[@P0ngers]

Supports Mains: "Tanks can just go Zarya/Orisa." DPS Mains: "Tanks can just go Zarya/Orisa." Tank Mains: "I Want to stop playing Zarya and Orisa."

[@hinatasninetailedfox]

As a Diamond/Masters Tank player from OW1 this is 100% my pain. I can win more than half my games if I just play Dva, Zarya, Orisa, but I want to have fun and play JQ and Ram sometimes and I just have to try so much harder to do less and it's exhausting. I rarely have fun on tank anymore even though it's still my favorite role.

[@skyler7017]

its so funnny because deku was saying how she'll play anything while on dps but when they were talking about junkrat's dmg was saying how she didnt want to swap to zarya and stay on JQ. Tanks are forced to swap way too hard because of how strong those two hero's are in comparison to the rest of the roster.

[@sircoletrain8373]

This is why im sympathetic towards the other roles as a support player. I feel like as a support, i never really NEED to counterswap to win a game. Will one character perform better than another? Sure. But for the most part have free reign. But tanks rn absolutely need to or get demolished. And even dps kinda need to, to a certain degree. Counterswapping is always gonna be a thing, but there should be at least some alleviation to where its not a complete necessity, just a harder fight

[@uc79newtype]

@@hinatasninetailedfoxi feel the same as doomfist in diamond.

[@scarecr0w630]

​@@uc79newtypeimagine being ball

[@goldfishtoast]

I hope this becomes a yearly sires where we check in with each role

[@TheClipMeister]

Honestly maybe a quarterly thing. Maybe the devs will take some notes occasionally if they see them 🤷‍♂️

[@crazeclique3543]

@@TheClipMeistereach roll doesn’t shift that fast

[@josephreynolds2401]

I think that it skews perception that role-players should be in their role's camp. Tired of role wars. The roles work together, not against each other. I've played many hours on all 3 roles and 1/3 of players play all 3. I have a stake in the GAME balance. Long-time (insert role) players will insist that the game is ACTUALLY one way or another. Listening to better players who play TEAM Overwatch will always be smarter than the solo queuers that populate the metal ranks. Most top 500 streamers get a load of slander from metal rank players that literally cannot comprehend the higher level plays. Think of all the bronze replays on the Tube that think they should be higher rank but can't grasp simple teamfight concepts. I'm a bit upset that Devs have catered to these cavemen minded players more than once.

[@user-sg2es3jo6i]

you could just rewatch these once a year cause the game isnt changing at all supports that strong means more support skins to be sold (and we all know that they are the most passionate about new skins, just see the rant about the new moira skin)

[@BasicSneedEducation]

It’s not kill the supports to kill the tank. It’s currently kill the tank to kill the supports. Bastion go brrrrrr.

[@AngrySecs]

That's the reason orisa is meta lol cuz she refuses to die.

[@joshuafruth6420]

Stg, I feel like when I played tank I'd get focused and my team is each targeting a different hero on the other team -_-

[@darkvinc]

The level of conversation is so much lower from the other 2 roles conversation. Svb has to elevate the conversations by pushing every other question. Typical DPS

[@MrDarthGravy]

​@@AngrySecsthat's why she's meta, but that is a trait that is required because of the state of dps and support. Sombra hack and the support utility creep mean any engage tanks feel awful and are almost unplayable. The only hero who can survive is orisa, who stands there and like you say, doesn't die instantly. No other tank feels really playable and a hero like sombra hard counters the other tanks so hard all it leaves is robo horse cow lady

[@AngrySecs]

@@MrDarthGravy yes ik, that's literally the point of my comment.

[@yelllowjacket1756]

I hope that you will do a Cross-over with streamers from all 3 roles together!

[@ollie2316]

a role stars game lmao

[@h3ll0w0rld7]

Now that is something that need to be seen once

[@mapunaka5721]

2-2-2

[@tryingtochangemyways5074]

Nah tank players cry to much

[@aachen-lr2172]

​@@tryingtochangemyways5074ahh, an idiot.

[@ForbidenXShadow]

Kinda funny how all 3 debates turned into a supports are op therapy sessions

[@ForbidenXShadow]

And the devs said let’s buff brig! ….

[@Bazilisk_AU]

"If you're bad... die" - Fareeha "-Only in the context of Overwatch" - SVB God I love this lineup today.

[@VoltismProductions]

Reaper is weird because he appears like he's supposed to be this sneaky stealthy character who teleports into the backline and surprises people but his footsteps even when crouched are as loud as a jet engine and he feels the need to loudly announce his highly visible, slow teleport. Either making him quieter or give him some ability to do damage at mid range Also I don't like how dps passives always kick in after killing something. At that point you're probably already winning, now you're just winning harder.

[@eagerinspirit]

you aren't supposed to just be teleporting into the backline though, you're supposed to setup where you KNOW the enemy has to go so they come to you. your sneakiness comes from the fact that he could literally be anywhere because of teleport.

[@ieToastie]

@@eagerinspiritperhaps a valid point, if reaper didn’t suck balls right now.

[@eagerinspirit]

@@ieToastie reaper is definitely not bad right now. it's a really a matter of how you play him. most people just tp backline and don't think about their engages on a macro level. he's one of the few DPS that can out damage heals. it's just tp backline and prosper just isn't free anymore and people haven't adjusted.

[@DrBodyshot]

FLANKING

[@Mr_BucketHat]

At 10:03 I cannot agree with Kragie more. Countering tank and making it miserable to play is about the only way to get value on DPS. Not fun for either sides, but hey, at least you win, right?

[@GiggaGMikeE]

Meanwhile supports have the most survivability, utility and lethality while crying for more buffs

[@cbaileychamp]

​@@GiggaGMikeEyeah support players need to be ignored for the rest of the games life span. I think these past 5 seasons have kind of proved this. Absolute idiots and they obviously make up the majority now.

[@noctisofrivia8778]

I liked when he talked about how the current damage output supports have makes it impossible for heroes like Tracer to create plays (and I'd add Genji, Reaper, Junkrat and lowkey Mccree) It's so true! I'm ok when enemy dps mess my plays, we share the same job and that makes us something like "rivals" but why should supports be able to mess your plays too? I LITERALLY feel more threatened when I dive a Kiriko/Illari/Bap/Brig/Zen than diving a Soldier/Ashe/Cree/Hanzo/Bastion/Reaper... Even if you execute your plays 100% perfect there's the suzu, fade, tp, cc or "boop" factor that will ruin your play and punish you with death. Making plays is not an option for you and your team, if you really wanna have a healthy competitive experience without teammates roasting you and your family you MUST turn off your brain and play the "spam damage role" 😞👍

[@Mr_BucketHat]

@@noctisofrivia8778 I agree with that too. I am genuinely scared to 1v1 a Kiri as most DPS because she A D strafes, her Kunais have crazy dmg output along with her not needing to commit to shooting like Ashe/Widow ADSing, and having an impossibly small hit box. Not to mention her get out of jail free cards: swift step and suzu. A character cannot have everything, and she does. I miss old OW when characters were balanced, or maybe not balanced, but more forgiving. Now every DLC addition breaks the game in a new way.

[@Bornchad-dragoncock]

@@noctisofrivia8778i mean, you should kinda be scared diving a brig, thats literally her job. But i agree with all the others

[@c_bons]

I’ve said this once and I’ll say it again. You can’t balance a game that has 3 team immortal abilities that are on cooldowns. If they’re on ultimates, maybe, but definitely not on cooldowns.

[@frozenfury0]

Lamp gives you immortality for only a certain threshold of health and you can have agency on when it ends, suzu gives you I believe less then a second of immortality and not much healing if not cleansing. Either way these abilities have long cooldowns and more than likely mean you will still end up behind on healing.

[@c_bons]

@@frozenfury0lamp is near 20 seconds, Suzu 12, lifegrip 10. Mei wall has longer cool down.

[@deadhelix]

It’s genuinely insane that league has some bat shit abilities but then the one ability that makes you immortal (that I can think of) Lambs ult, also makes the enemy immortal so it can be massive for your team sure but also the enemy. Really speaks volumes (although league also has like 3 different resurrect from death passives so its a mixed bag) Edit: I also forgot Tryndamere but people hate how boring his immortality works so it furthers my point

[@kitkat8242]

@@c_bonslifegrip is 16 suzu is 14 or 15

[@wildeskompositum9556]

100%, a CD shouldnt hard counter an Ult

[@crizum2475]

Like how in all three of these debates everyone suddenly has to choose their words very carefully when the topic of Mercy comes up.

[@Gdhttu]

They don’t wanna wake up to the mafia in their bedroom 😂

[@DanielFlores-fo1ee]

@@Gdhttu😂😂😂

[@Azazel-uv3sx]

I saw Fareeha labeled as Fitzy and I started to have a multi-year panic, just remembering how I SWEAR Fitzy's voice was male over all those videos over all the years. You really got me with that one SVB lmao

[@Theguyoverthere603]

Why does this look and sound like a group therapy session

[@therebelfrogy9287]

It's not?

[@DNYLNY]

It’s my therapy

[@sonderbain]

Because supports are ruining the game....

[@cynns5435]

^^^^^^^ This take right here. Sad how both the Tank and DPS podcasts are closer to therapy sessions while the Support podcast was the equivalent of “get good, lol”.

[@devindavon6615]

​@@cynns5435oh that's just standard for the OW fanbase,back in season 1-2 you had Hog players telling you to "get good and position better.", You had Widow before the range nerf telling you to simply "not peek" in objective based video game with varying amounts of cover, you had Hanzo just telling you to "not walk in straight lines." Regardless of if you were even aware of his presence because he's one of the quietest snipers because he uses a bow and spam a choke to get relatively easy value. What do they all have in common? "It's not OP because I play them!" Ignoring the fact there are 4 other people in this game. It's a cycle that repeats and it'll happen again when/if supports get nerfed,you'll have a week of people saying it's unfair their toy is getting fixed then people will just get over it, it's already happened once with supports. Remember the Ana healing nerf on nade? People whined for a week and now no one talks about it anymore

[@geminimaxxim]

These role debates have been so insightful lately. What SVB needs to do now is take all the big talking points and everything we've learned, and bring them to a Great Dev Debate with the Hero design team 😂

[@DrBodyshot]

It'd be wild if he did a great dev debate and just had Jeff with the current dev team in the same call

[@upsidedowndoggo3242]

As a genji main, I remember the days where it wasn’t poke and ult simulator. But today it isn’t even worth it to try and hard flank because you will never be able to secure the support kills alone. If you are a flanker and play all of your cards right, you should be able to secure backline picks and make it back to your team, or even trade for that matter

[@leedunkin3338]

"being able to kill someone before they realize they're gonna die" is something only a truly merciful cowboy like Cassidy will do

[@petrparkr8011]

Im on the fuck Kiriko train 😂

[@verdant1029]

🗿

[@UltiNateum]

🗿same here.

[@demifolk8940]

me too🥴

[@idontlikelasagne7211]

me too mffh,,gghhh 🥵

[@J.R.Swish1]

You want to run a fuck train on kiriko? Wtf dude...

[@VenereJames]

I love what you’re doing, SVB. I respect the work you’re putting in this community as well as every other content creator that was featured on this podcast and i thank you for being such a good relator, interviewer and creator. Good stuff 💖

[@braydenk2361]

As long as there are tank busters that get way more value than they should in a game with one tank I will never accept dps as a weak role let alone the weakest

[@Imbadatleague]

Not to argue but to debate your point, im only Plat 3 rn as a Reaper Main but have been playing more Widow and Bastion recently. From my perspective as a “tank buster” it is impossible to actually kill a tank with good support, and I used to be able to roll the backline but also impossible now, which is why i gave up Reaper for a bit. There are some games that will favor a tank busting play-style (storm backline, kill tank, DPS trickle in) but more than not , you’re just feeding *swap bastion*

[@gamist8166]

Tank seems pretty valuable if tankbusters are too good. We gon say supports the worst then?

[@shinitai.x]

Lol

[@Absol_hunt]

That literally two characters bastion and reaper which people don't even know how to play half the time they are strong but all the other dps should not lose to support so much it dumb what even is a dps if I can't get an elimination. Then I'm forced to go reaper, or something. Torb piss me off he shouldn't be a hero bastion might as well be a tank they did it to doom might as well take him too

[@natedavis2944]

@@Absol_huntuh no everyone knows how to play bastion it’s have pocket and configure and peak the corner and win. He does the tank job better than the tanks cause no one can peak him at all

[@amerhst1201]

Out of all the roles podcasts, this one was easily the best. They were fair and very clear about their opinions and it was fun listening to them.

[@Fainted-Ikaros]

Because they all feel like their role is okay, just kinda boring that you can't just play what you want vs picking the win pick and support being busted for the most part making that less of a choice and more of an obligation

[@cbaileychamp]

​@@Fainted-Ikarosdps is easily the worst role in terms of game dictation and kind of has always been. Its highest skill ceiling lowest skill floor.

[@Tanmanhologram]

I wish they talked about how Cassidy desperately needs a buff

[@TR-ju5re]

​@@cbaileychampin high ranks I'd probably agree but diamond below dps run game most games in my experience. I found it much easier to carry on dps there.

[@lemongrab1423]

​@@Tanmanhologramwym did the roll buff not make him great again? 🫠

[@Qwmp-]

You're doing a great job developing as a host, SVB, definitely doesn't go unnoticed.

[@spinomitegames9000]

I think that the support passive should be limited to half health. That way they can have an edge, but successful attacks still will make them vulnerable.

[@DjNaste]

This is the way.

[@brendanclark1058]

I just feel like it should kick in much later than it currently does and maybe at a slightly slower pace.

[@Zyborgg]

9:30 Ye the tracer vs illari+pylon duel is just tough. One body shot and you're forced to disengage or recall.

[@devindavon6615]

Can't even one clip her and by the time you reload the pylon just fully heals her because it pumps too much healing.

[@Zyborgg]

Doesn't really help that lifeweaver is broken too. Just joink anyone that get's pulsbombed. When you go for him he can just petal up and you can't reach him. He will get healed up by the passive and his shield gen (who the f thought that was a good idea to ALSO give him shields). Kiriko can cleanse the bomb and easily 1v1 a tracer. It's just absurd.@@devindavon6615

[@FiestaTX17]

I’m on the train of why tank busters actually exist in OW2. The one tank already gets front loaded with every negative effect in the game and if we take away the busted sustain and healing outputs of support, then really what’s the point. If we cut the amount of damage and healing in the game, everything suddenly becomes more strategic and complex, because now you have to think and play your cool downs correctly. We don’t need heroes like Bastion doing as much damage as they do because it creates such an unfun environment for the tank. Anyway feel free to tear me apart for hating how dumb and unfun it is to play tank. (I’m a biased tank main, so I just hate bastion and how broken support is)

[@myrinnjagim-kern7838]

Thank you!!!

[@J.R.Swish1]

Everyone hates bastion except bastion mains. Same thing goes for Sombra, Orisa, Mei, Junkrat (even though he's pretty weak still an annoying little shit)

[@TiagoMorbusSa]

Junkrat is annoying?! Can you not literally walk straight into his spam fire?@@J.R.Swish1

[@ssccaappeeggooaatt]

I think youre right and that it would be better if they didnt have "tank busters." But i really dont see how blizzard changes a character like bastion without entirely changing their identity

[@Sizzyl]

@@J.R.Swish1 I have no issue with Junkrat (and honestly ATM Sombra post-rework, but she's still kinda finding her place)

[@nathantravis8023]

DPS: I can shoot things Support: *laughs* That's cute

[@kaelkirkby9191]

The amount of times where I have point blank shot at a Moira with Reaper only for her to heal faster than I can damage her is ridiculous.

[@davidrich27]

33:45 As far as pinpoint accuracy instead of Hanzo’s log, maybe the answer instead to use center mass for headshot crits. Hanzo’s and Kiri’s shots being more forgiving makes sense since it is a projectile. But clipping the head hitbox should result in body shot damage. Headshots should only happen when the center mass of the projectile is inside the head hitbox.

[@unfinishedsentenc5308]

Awesome! Been awaiting for this one

[@Alanhslc]

It's interesting how things have changed in OW1-2. I have always played in metal ranks, and from my perspective, DPS has always been that role that people fight for to pick first. That's why the queue times were long even in metal ranks for DPS role (of course, not considering the changes in the ranking system itself). However, nowadays you pick the DPS role and it seems that no one really cares. People prefer to pick a tank or, most of the time, a support.

[@mangshu21]

ah yes the role that lets you spectate the match in first person

[@myrinnjagim-kern7838]

You mean tank.

[@aplacewherefunandfunkythin705]

@@myrinnjagim-kern7838no tank is a third person spectate bc ur dead

[@myrinnjagim-kern7838]

Isn’t that what I said? There’s still two dps compared to one tank. Where the tank is supposed to determine the flow of the game.

[@jaxsonburch-eo1vz]

@@myrinnjagim-kern7838Bro have you been listening to what people are saying about tank in the community? Tank is the most miserable role to play for all the reasons mentioned in the tank pod.

[@AbbyOW2]

Good morning, always perfect timing with these, now to enjoy my coffee and listen to the stuff here and may add on a new comment with my own thoughts!

[@kommandantkillcode]

You’re gonna make a video about this podcast too, right? I’d love to see your opinions on things presented here in a focused video.

[@AbbyOW2]

Mostly on the same page as everyone here and my points from my DPS video got echoed here so we good! I plan on talking about the xbox acquisition and what it means for OW2 today and tomorrow i'll see. @@kommandantkillcode

[@tigerfalco]

So I just wanted to throw my own opinion in here about Genji, because I feel like Genji always gets the same treatment. When he's good people want him nerfed and he gets nerfed within 2 weeks, and the only buff he got was an accident. When things aren't favoring him people's attitude is, to quote Fitzy, "I think theyre being little bitches". Edit: Oh he's a Mei player, makes sense, of course he thinks that way I have been a Genji main since the first day I started playing, Genji makes up around 1/5th of my total play time in the game (and it would be higher if he had been more consistent throughout). Genji is a high skill floor hero, one of the hardest in the game, he's very skill expressive, and I like that cuz when I'm doing good with Genji I really feel it. My issue with Genji can easily be summed up by "risk reward"/"Mistake allowance". Using a metaphor, lets say youre given 1 dollar for each mistake you can make on a character before you either die or start losing value. I enjoy playing about half the DPS Roster (Genji, Sombra, Ashe, Echo, Widow, Hanzo, Sym, Tracer, Soujorn). Most of the characters on that list *on average* I feel like I have about $2-$4ish, with Genji I feel like I have 50 cents. With him I often feel like I have to play damn near perfectly just to generate value similar to what I could on another hero for less effort. The risk/reward for Genji is skewed. Genji is one of the heroes who has the highest amount of counters. I don't think god level Genji's should be keeping this float up alone, just like I don't think "nano blade is scary" should be the only thing that keeps people from trying to access him more critically. Do I think Genji's bad? No, I think he's ok. I don't think he's in a good place I think he's in a neutral one, I want him to be in a good place. What do I mean by neutral, well considering Genji (a high skill floor character that punishes mistakes) for the last few seasons has had ~50% win rate at *all ranks* should be concerning. I feel like at least SVB, considering he said he doesn't like this balance philosophy, should see the issue there. My biggest issue isn't even with blade, it's with his neutral game. Blade isn't very good without an amp, his neutral could be better. I've been through this balance song and dance with another game so If I need to explain why Genji only being a decent pick to less than (highballing) 30% of the player base is bad then I can.

[@Jayon_son]

I think the meta dps are meta because they can fill in the role of the tank. Bastion, Mei, torb, all have abilities that can take a lot of space. Bastion turret form is literally referred to as tank form and can force any player outta sight thus controlling that space. Not to mention that they themselves have armor and dmg reduction from that form. Mei can close space off with her wall and make it to where from her to that wall is all space control and taken. She also has her heal for a higher hp and cc with her beam that slows. Torb controls space in more of a sense that the turret will check any body (mainly dps) entering its LOS (torb is the lesser of the tree at taking the role of tank) he also commands any space around him when he overloads also has the extra hp. These dps can do multi role things which is why they are so strong because they can be played as both a dps and a Sudo tank. Same can be said about Zaria to a degree but she can do a lot dmg but she can also support her team with the bubble cleanse. The theme seems to be that the best character can do multi role capabilities. And the supports (aside from the original supports) can for fill almost all roles Also the concept of hero bans. U can easily account for one tricks if u allow them to lock one hero they want first. Because not everyone is gonna want to lock the meta hero fort their role so u will still see the meta picks but not always since people probably wanna make sure they can play what they are feeling

[@Bluemansonic]

Best Take I've seen in days

[@333Abs]

I wonder if they should split up the dps into different categories for dps passives. Not for queuing, just for the purposes of giving different abilities. For example , flanker or dive class hero’s. Give them a passive that helps them sustain in the enemy back line or assassinate isolated targets easier. Sniper or ranged hero’s having a passive that gives them a faster reload or something (I’m not a game designer so these might not be the best ideas but the general idea of specialised dps passives might help)

[@Triforcebro]

Another night with Overtime and another great debate! 😊

[@ZephyrXBL]

Im glad this discussion was had, because all the things said are why i switched from DPS end or Season 5 to playing mainly support for S6 and S7.

[@greena5sas5in4]

Um I don't know how I found this so fast

[@Notafemboy385]

U have been chosen

[@Ross-lv3jx]

Hey 😅k

[@zacharywoodford8530]

I just like that sombra can actually be punished now. The spawn camp thing was always annoying but im in low rank so nobody can aim well enough for it to be the guaranteed kill it is for these guys

[@silentdc404]

Been playing sombra this season, I still find moments where spawn camping a mercy or ana is the correct play during downtime

[@zacharywoodford8530]

@silentdc404 if you can trap a support in spawn it's always the correct play honestly. Support is broken at the moment so you keeping them out of the fight is worth you also not being in the fight. At least until you get EMP

[@zero13z34]

I spawn camped a Sombra with Sombra yesterday lol

[@Absol_hunt]

Fr genji can now reflect virus that make it so much easier to fight her ywas happy to see that's

[@Azure_Aether]

I just want to say that there have been two podcasts now where players mentioned that they all fired in on a support with all of their abilities, hit the skill shots and did everything right... And the support still didn't die. They didn't go below half HP. I don't think there is anyone with eyes who won't say that Support is way overpowered.

[@tryingtochangemyways5074]

They ain't overpowered only lifeweaver,bap is overtuned..I have no problem killing every other support

[@walls0cket677]

​@@tryingtochangemyways5074 You must be playing against Cardboard 5 players then, because most supports have more than enough ways to completely stop any form of ambush against them. Excluding Zen, most have either cc, get out of jail buttons, self sustain out the wazoo/damage out the wazoo or insane mobility.

[@mangshu21]

​@@tryingtochangemyways5074you are playing vs donkeys. I have done that too. You know how? They were wood tier teams.

[@GabeOW]

True. Also I was so excited to laugh about the comments to this post before I even clicked to see them

[@hixx]

The hanzo toggle doesnt auto shoot like a turret... it just toggles the draw and you click again to release the arrow

[@billlab4304]

Dps feels terrible to play against the support passive even oppressive at times. My one change is to increase the cooldown to the supports passive by say to 5 seconds from the 2 second cooldown or just remove the passive. This should make dps feel more impactful and threatening to supports. Lastly supports should support one another it really does feel like a lost art in overwatch 2 over overwatch 1. When I play support I try to protect my other support, but with the support passive, I barely even think about them compared to overwatch 1. I think the support passive makes supports lose part of their strategic nuances.

[@JANjeweetzali]

yeah and because they dont need to heal eachother they can do more DAMAGE DAMAGE DAMAGE. tbh the support passive needs to stay at 5 seconds though otherwise if one support is down the other team will always autowin

[@felipemoraes9488]

Or make so the passive only works when out of combat

[@ninjapurpura1]

W take

[@skywalker617]

@@felipemoraes9488 It’s only active when your out of combat…..are you new?

[@ReaveIdono]

The support passive CD is infinite if you're hitting your shots.

[@jonathasvieira6414]

I play all roles, but Tank is my favorite (or used to be) and it seems to me that Tanks feeling miserable to play in 5v5 and Supports being too strong are the two major problems with the balance right now. At this point this is a common opinion and I hope the devs do something about this soon

[@ReaveIdono]

Not everything is a dev issue. At the very top levels it could be but most people don't even bother to think how to use their character to deal with a given situation.

[@user-sg2es3jo6i]

they wont

[@kevinatenine9797]

In conclusion...nerf Genji.

[@verdant1029]

*Indirectly buff snipers

[@momdad1818]

Funniest overwatch player

[@crossc1988]

This is how you fix Hanzo: You give him a resource meter that fills up over time. Every time you fully draw your bow, a tick of that meter goes down. The meter could have, say, 10 ticks. You can call the meter Stamina, as drawing a heavy bow like hanzos takes ALOT of strength to do repeatedly. What happens if you run out of resource? You cant fully draw your bow. How do you get that resource back? Simple, it comes back while you are not drawing your bow for 5 seconds. Also, hanzo needs damage fall off AND more arrow drop. Right now, he has NO damage fall off, and a fully charged arrow has VERY little arrow drop. Additionally, remove storm arrow. Replace it with something more Shimada like. For example, give him the ability "Smoke Bomb: Hanzo fires an arrow that leaves an area of thick smoke for 5 seconds, cooldown = 15 seconds" This would allow for even higher skill representation via using smoke bomb with sonic arrow, now you can see anyone in the smoke, but they cannot see u. It also gives him another escape. ITS ALSO VERY NINJA LIKE. Finaly, I think his sonic arrow (and smoke bomb if it were implemented) should be destroyable. They impact, they have 10 health, and they can be targeted/killed, as this would allow counter play. This is how you fix Reaper: I think they should give him a right click ability that he can use ONLY while he is wraith form. My idea is "Choke: While in wraith form, if you press your melee button on someone they take 25 damage over 3 seconds, this can stack up to 3 times for a total of 75 damage". This turns wraith into more than just an escape tool or "wraith in to ult" tool. It adds a new layer of tactical risk vs reward. Secondly, I think reaper TP should be reworked. First activation it locks onto a location for 5 seconds, even if you go behind cover (if you dont tp in this time, cooldown is still used). Second activation it starts the TP animation. You can still quick TP by just quick pressing the button twice. Additionally, i think the time it takes reaper to TP should be adjusted based on distance AND double the distance you can tp. So a point blank tp might be near instant, while a max range across the map tp might take 10 seconds.

[@THYnameISsarcasm]

I've been thinking for a while that they should do more with passives. I feel like each role having different passives for different character archetypes would be cool or even each character having their own passive to support their playstyle.

[@mr.meeseeeks5544]

Podcast roster looking nice. Can't wait to finish the podcast

[@myrinnjagim-kern7838]

It has fareeha it’s not a good roster

[@floflofloflo8608]

@@myrinnjagim-kern7838 what do you dislike about Fareeha? Come on, share with the class.

[@myrinnjagim-kern7838]

She’s garbage at the game. Ever since she was a caster.

[@myrinnjagim-kern7838]

@@floflofloflo8608 happy?

[@weeweewermwangstalker9062]

​@@floflofloflo8608ew dude

[@333Abs]

I love when fareeha is on the podcast she’s great

[@Dingletons]

kragie hard mewing the entire time truely inspirational

[@mangodxwns]

hes just like me fr the mew streak dont stop

[@BasicSneedEducation]

1:15:35 great point from Fitzy. Supports are going to get Sombra’s damage nerfed. She’s supposed to do more damage now that she’s easier to punish. Support players are crying about dying from being hacked and hit with virus.

[@RK9.]

Good, ive been playing Sombra a lot since new patch and her burst damage is just ridiculous and should and will be nerfed.

[@kommandantkillcode]

@@RK9.I think the amount of damage Virus does could be lowered, and her ttk on a hacked target would still be quick, but not to the point where sometimes you can’t react even if you’re full health before-hand.

[@AngrySecs]

​@@RK9.Sombra shouldn't get nerfed if supports don't get nerfed I think is the point there. Sombra lost her get out of jail free card to get higher burst damage. While some supports have a get out of jail free card, high burst damage, high healing output, immortality and ability to cleanse ultimates let alone cool down abilities, mobility. See the issue?

[@johnsonspark171]

the bottom line is that the game is dead and it's really all the supports fault. Supports are super over-powered, cry constantly, and are generally the worst players at the game (lookin' at you Mercy players), but buy the most skins. This game desperately needs hero bans in ranked

[@rationaldemon195]

I think the biggest problem with these hitscan supports is that their range is on par or better then the dps, i think by having a inherit kit to selfsustain should also have the weakness of loosing to a kit that is dedicated to range attacks it doesn't make sense that a kit design for supporting inheritly has the advantage in killing as fast as the dedicated dmg role. Supports can cry all they want but the advantage of a support should always be rewarded for creative ways of winning the match not inherit brute force bullet per bullet matchup.

[@Sizzyl]

As a tank, I'd GLADLY give up my role passive to remove the other 2 from the game. Even with my 'passive' active, I still get booped around all over the place as if it doesn't exist (by pharah, junk, brig, etc.). The only thing the tank passive has ever done is effectively just nerfed lucio, which is kinda dumb. People say 'only dps passive does nothing', but IMO Support passive is literally the only one that does anything, getting booped more or less has almost never affected me on tank (beyond what used to be a reinhardt-specific passive since he has less ability to escape boops).

[@konrah1486]

Without the tank passive it is unbelievably easy to kill tanks with boops as lucio. Which wouldn’t be a problem if we had more than one tank…

[@Sizzyl]

@@konrah1486 I just don't remember that being that case, but maybe I just have nostalgia goggles on.

[@konrah1486]

@@Sizzyl You don’t remember that being the case because the only time you could boop tanks without their passive was when there were two tanks. We only have one now, you know how much easier it would be to kill one tank with a boop? People are playing Orisa for a reason right now and I’m not sure if you’ve experienced what it’s like playing tank right now but if you remove that passive the tank experience will somehow be worse than it has been.

[@Sizzyl]

@@konrah1486 either way I'd gladly get easily booped by lucio and have to play away from ledges than have to deal with support passive existing.

[@konrah1486]

@@Sizzyl Idk, just doesn’t make much sense to me that a 5 foot tall dj can use the power of music to push around and bully a 7 foot tall 700 pound pig man. That seems like a power fantasy that fundamentally cannot exist outside of 6v6 or two tanks. Especially considering the low skill floor that lucio boop has, it’s not like we’re talking about a skill shot that could potentially delete a 600hp tank in a second. And sure there’s counterplay and the fivehead “just don’t stand next to the edge of the map” mentality but tanks already have to worry about every support and dps cooldown so adding these barriers and making it so they’re limited even more on what they can do would be terrible for the tank role

[@nazzmezz8816]

For the hero bans, I would like to see just a mode itself, like role and open queue.

[@Dergishmere]

Healing numbers should be decreased for the supports for sure, and maybe an increase on the cd for the support passive. Other than that, i think having alot of utility is what support is. Having to juggle your abilities to help your team. Not to mention the fact that supports need the survivability at this point because peeling does not exist in 5v5 (that was the other tank's job usually). Although i do believe they should have to play well and not have an insta win button. Dps do their jobs rn as far as i can tell, when they hit shots and play smart, instead of wanting to run in like COD. If heals were slightly nerfed i feel like the game would be less about raw dmg output and killing tank through 10K healing.

[@DjNaste]

I don't think only reducing the healing would fix anything, it would just make playing tank even worse. The amount of healing is certainly a problem, but there needs to be more done.

[@alfonsovelazquez9565]

​@@DjNaste tanks problem has less to do with numbers and more with the utility interactions with the role. Though I would agree with the op that numbers in the game in gen have to come down a lot

[@jamesgomez3455]

I’m gonna say this as the circle of the game. Supports have become so strong that they keep up tanks and make everyone unable to die along with killing any squishy or disabling tanks, dps has the misfortune right now to destroy tank and that’s it, you can’t kill supports because they’re so strong which they have to be because otherwise they’re just farmed, and tank is just survive as long as possible and try not to die first because of you die first then the team is down to a 4v5 with a pocketed tank that really can’t die. And all of this is because 5v5 made it where the most IMPORTANT role is rank and not for a good reason. It’s because you soak up abilities and just try to stay alive. Having two tanks would solve this problem but that’s to obvious

[@muckdriver]

Then we get OP or utter garbage tanks if they're remotely useful in a 2 tank game. When there's 2 tanks you either make them both equally weak and super niche or filling in one generic role which is just soak up things. The former you end up with extreme combos like dva hog that are useless outside of memeing, double shield in solo queue because it's easy, and the latter is not fun in an fps like OW cause you can't kill anything. Having 1 tank allows the role to do both damage when needed and soak up things while still retaining niches and not being as useless. The only issue right now for tank is obviously how easy they can get CC'd and how some maps are so garbage in how to play them like Circuit Royal, Junkertown, etc. Games tend to have an odd man out role or hybrid roles for this reason, specific roles can't exist in the same quantity unless you want to build a very specific way. OW is still an FPS at the end of the day and having tank be 1 in slot is better. Maybe they could make a 4th role for hybrids like mei, bast, brig, etc. but that would probably be further down the line like a year or 2 when we have more tanks.

[@cbaileychamp]

I dont think you or anyone who says this understands that 6v6 has more balancing problems than 5v5. I get where your coming from and why you would think this but trust me. I have spent a ungodly amount of time thinking about and problem solving for this games sake. Back when noone wanted to play tank NOTHING else worked. For a small small season or 2. Tank was actually really fun to play as a result of the changes they were able to make bc of 5v5. They just ruined it by listening to a bunch of crying supp players. Bottom line is. Supports need to GIT GOOD. They have historically bitched about so many things and almost every time they are listened to they screw something up. Remember when they said theyd add more cover to the maps so supports didnt need to rely on shields? Yeah they never did that. Half of the maps in this game need to be totally reworked from the ground up with GOOD high elo players in mind. Thats why supp felt so weak. It was a combination of that and a lack of character choice relative to other roles. Every other role had a brand new character that was so fun to play but support was just same ol same ol. Fast forward to now basically EVERY single support is immortal and never ever dies unless they not only make a mistake but also get focused by 3 people. Its not fun. And if you disagree with whats being said here its most likely cause u dont play dps at high enough sr At diamond or above dps and tank do not feel even slightly fun or engaging imo

[@cbaileychamp]

6v6 created an unsolvable problem for the devs in the tank role. Either make them broken and dictate the outcome of every single fcking match with busted tank synergy, or make them not as strong and big spongey punching bags and noone will play the role. They spent 4 years trying to figure out an in between and could never find it. Trust me. I miss 6v6 too and old ow more than anyone. But we needed this. Its just like role queue. It was fun at times but the change needed to happen for the betterment of the game itself. Wish everyone would accept this or just wish theyd add a 6v6 legacy mode so everyone can be happy

[@Staticiii]

@@cbaileychamp nah brother you're lost, 5v5 is literally unplayable. The end of OW1 the game was balanced. The issue is there was too much dps cc and not enough engaging abilities for tanks. They changed both things in OW2, we didn't need to take away a tank. That was just a dumb move on blizzard's part. To even make this game playable we'd have to cut support heals and by about 1/3 and somehow kill this tank rock paper scissors bs we have to play through. The other two roles literally do the dps role better than dps and then complain about them not doing enough. Unless you want to play something unfun, you're simply not gonna get as much value. They can add 6v6 back, as long as ram/sig are banned from playing together we will never have to deal with dbl shield like OW1 again. Supports currently have all the strength that was for the off tank and it simply isn't fun to play against, and nothing fucking dies. And take away support passives, shit is ass to play against.

[@davidhvacddc]

6v6 or RIP.... o.. too late. 5v5 killed OW said this a year before ow2 was out.

[@yelllowjacket1756]

Supports and tanks may get their values easier but you can solo-carry the hardest on SOME of the DPS heroes (Sojourn, Ashe, Widow, etc..) but becase you are more punishable and there is a small room for mistakes that is the reason why the DPS role "feels" weaker

[@J.R.Swish1]

Notice how all the heroes you mentioned can at the very least two-shot almost every squishy in the game at 30m or more. Any hero that has to play at close to mid-range doesn't "feel" bad. It's genuinely horrible. But you can always swap to the boring hitscan that can kill across the map with little to no interaction and ruin everyone's fun including your own...

[@nathancasey7712]

​@@J.R.Swish1Yep and if you duel a support a lot of them can two shot you and if they don't kill you they force you out because their projectiles are so easy to hit

[@mangshu21]

popping off vs bad teams doesnt mean anything

[@srr4460]

maybe an answer to all of these problems would be to have different "difficulty levels" of competitive queue (which had their own separate SR and rankings) based on the TTK that people wanted to play with, so if you played in "easy queue" the TTK would be relatively higher (with more healing and higher HP pools like we have currently) and in "hard queue" the TTK would be relatively lower (with less healing and lower HP pools). this would probably be difficult to balance but they already sort of do this in open queue since tanks have less HP there, and there are days where i definitely prefer open queue to role queue since getting to play two tanks is a fun tradeoff for having less HP with each tank.

[@Solarjolt]

To add to the role passive discussion, what if we instead of just removing all of them or trying to make a one-size-fits all passive, why not split up each role into subcategories League of Legends style and give each subcategory a fitting passive for each role they fill? Example: "Damage" role, would be split into; 'Flanker', 'Sustain', 'Burst/Assassin'. •'Flanker' gets a passive that increases base movement speed by 10%-15% constant. •'Sustain' gets maybe 25 health on kill, or some form of damage resistance to stay in the fight more. •'Burst/Assassin' gets bonus damage or cooldown reduction on kill. Stuff like that which is simple, but plays into the specific strengths of each role subcategory. Just spitballing here.

[@penrilfake]

Love these ideas so much! I wish we had them :(

[@Solarjolt]

​@@penrilfake I appreciate this! Unfortunately, a change like this would bring a lot of complexity to the game all at once, and complexity doesn't fit with their F2P model of catering to the casuals. So as cool and full-of-potential as this idea is, it likely would never get put into the game until we had a significantly bigger roster of heroes to choose from. Just too much complexity for a bunch of smooth-brain casuals to grasp all at once. Not to mention, it would add to power creep like crazy and discourage off-meta picks if it doesn't favor the team comp. My personal counterpoint to this would be that it helps guide players to more synergistic comps to play together instead of encouraging counter swapping and maybe randomly choosing heroes that don't bring value to your teammates. (Sorry for the paragraphs. I just like the theory crafting of Overwatch.)

[@kaelkirkby9191]

Which category would Reaper fall into since he has the capacity to flank and heals a portion of damage dealt?

[@kyubbikcat2281]

Take a shot every time they mention countering the tank or Kiriko with her suzu/cleanse.

[@erikhendrickson59]

Tonbjorn being the new Odd Job makes the most-perfect sense.

[@bakon321]

When talking tracer, why does no one mention how illari 2 SHOTS HER?! That’s too much! Make it 3 like Ana

[@charlesborsellino2393]

I love how all three of these were just about supports maybe they’re just too damn good

[@bigfudge2031]

People need to stop saying support and start just saying the specific heroes. I am a support main who mainly plays the "off healer" role (Mercy, Lucio, Brig) and I hate being blamed when none of the characters I play are responsible for any of these things and are potentially weak in comparison to the other supports.

[@Bismarck9871]

​@@bigfudge2031i do main brig she is not weak tho a bit buggy this season but not overpowered

[@ReaveIdono]

​@@bigfudge2031Brig was the main reason DPS went away as a option with her kit. Before Role Queue was instituted.

[@--Glory--]

@@ReaveIdonoThat was Overwatch 1 where she had a stun on a very short cooldown. A character being previously overpowered doesn’t mean they still are. Brig can still be annoying for dive heroes but thats her niche and she struggles against other comps, especially poke. Meanwhile characters like Kiriko are good in literally every situation and are arguably more effective at countering dive.

[@ReaveIdono]

@@--Glory-- If they removed Role Queue today No DPS would be played and Brig would be a main stay due to the sustain. The stun was nice but the sustain she has is what makes her powerful.

[@gogetasupersaiyan4593]

Tank is the oldest child who gets blamed for everything the youngest child does even though it’s not his fault, support is the youngest child who gets away with anything and blame it on the older child, and dps is the middle child who does his own thing, they might cause a problem here and there but they are doing their own thing

[@ClaraBennett]

I really believe that the playerbase could handle having the flat DPS speed buff again. Maybe at a lower value, and maybe with something else to try to balance the effectiveness of the DPS passive across the role more. (Like, maybe DPS could just always see enemy healthbars regardless of whether they’d dealt damage to them recently, which Sombra used to have as part of her now-defunct Opportunist passive? That seems like it would be very broadly useful for DPS and help with making more effective and efficient commitments to secure kills.) But I think we could have speedy DPS again, and it would be fine and probably good for the game. It felt terrible for supports in the early beta, but that was before we had any of the new supports or much of the individual survivability upgrades that older support heroes got, like Snap Kick, the insta-heal on regen burst (which I don’t really like but is an effective peeling tool), Mercy’s new movement, etc. The playerbase was also accustomed to the OW1 way of playing the game, where supports had a lot more protection because there were 2 tanks to get through. The order of operations made it so that everything that made surviving as a support more challenging came before everything that made it easier, and in the meantime they scrapped one of the things that made it harder (the flat speed buff). With more options in the support role and a year’s worth of experience in the OW2 paradigm under our belts, I think the support players can handle the speed now. I think it would make DPS feel better. I think it would put more pressure on supports thus make tanks feel better. And supports would retain their options to outplay and survive, so I think that would still feel fine after a little adjustment period. I think it’s more fun when everyone has _options_ but can also actually be punished for using them poorly, or be under enough pressure to just run out.

[@ralseidagoat]

1:43:50 talking about how junk and echo can silently bomb you, what if junk made a noise when nade jumping like raze does in valorant? would that help?

[@MrDeykar]

I think they need to rework the support passive. In OW1 supports had to make more difficult decision making, by either saving their cooldowns for themselves or use it on a teammate and be vulnerable. The support passive selfheql kinda negates that weakness a bit and allows supports to use their abilities more on their teammates without being as vulnerable.

[@bradmiles1984]

Except in OW1 you had 2 tanks so usually one would peel for the supports. TTK was much longer in OW1, that is why the passive exists. You have to stop dmg on a support for the passive even to kick in, maybe hit your shots? The passive isn't that strong. If anything all they'd need to do is bump it from 2 seconds to 3 seconds then its same as shields like on Zen. Easy fix.

[@user-sg2es3jo6i]

@@bradmiles1984 giving support main vibes

[@bradmiles1984]

@user-sg2es3jo6i no I just have wel thought out arguments. Reinhardt is actually my most played hero by close to 400 hours over my next which is Ana.

[@ccalvac18]

I think the ORIGINAL "Immortality" where one-shots or high burst damage mattered the most was Zen's Transcendence. The difference is, though, is that it's a simulated immortality through outrageous healing but your teammates can still get one-shot and the only true immortal is Zen who just moves fast during the ult. I think this is why Trans felt/feels balanced. Transcendence is an ULT. Suzu/Immortality field is an ABILITY COOLDOWN. Zen can't damage anyone during Trans but Kiri and Bap can still fight while they and their teammates are immortal.

[@dirusj4006]

It was and still is counter by shields, anti heals and Rein charge/Winston ult. Zens ult is good but not 100% free win because you hit a button.

[@soyunbonus]

The main thing is that it's an ult, not an ability.

[@Sizzyl]

1:24:15 they already tried this to some degree before by making it so you could heal low health targets for more, I already can't kill even enemy tanks pocketed by mercy, she does NOT need a healing buff unless this was to fully replace the blue beam.

[@Binky1000]

She is not saying it needs to heal more based on missing health. She is say the beam healing is different based on how much max hp a target has. So on a tank with 600-700 health it would still be the 55 health per second but on 150-400 health she would do less healing for those targets in a attempt to make that pocketed dps less oppressive. it sounds like an interesting change but the mercy players would probably riot. I would say that mercy’s healing is not really a problem. The problem is damage boost. But since they don’t seem to every want to make an adjustment to it they are trying to take power out of mercy’s kit in some way.

[@Sizzyl]

@@Binky1000 I wasn't saying that she said that, I was pointing out something that had happened as proof that giving mercy more healing in any capacity (even if it's just for tanks+torb+mei+reaper+bastion) is insanity. I realize now that her idea could be saying give her current healing to tanks and reduced healing to the other 2 roles, but I think my comment still holds merit. Mercy's healing on it's own is not an issue, especially without blue beam.

[@Ninja_Tude]

I think this largely comes down to role identity. Like the tank players are Miserable. There's one person expected to take space in a death match game. And yeah lots of health and damage but you're also usually Hard focused a lot. Tanks should feel like a raid boss but DPS should Definitely feel confident in any non-tank 1v1 And no I'm not saying support should be heal bots my elimination, but they Should be utility force multipliers more than dualists. Speed, discord, Petal etc are the kinds of abilities that let you Team do something that didn't before. But they Should be nervous in the 1v1, playing around another member of their team

[@PrometheusXV]

Resident mid-GM Hanzo main - I'll take a break from making a post about how awful supports are on every video to instead comment on Hanzo and defend him a little. Hanzo is a lot less forgiving than a lot of people give him credit for, particularly against high ranked players who tend to have incredible movement and awareness. Playing down main and just spamming angles is a very common low-ranked complaint I see, but it really stops working once people stop walking in a straight line out of cover while wide-peeking, even though they literally just saw a sonic land next to them. There are certainly maps and situations where Hanzo is just very good, and will consistently get value (I have like an 80%+ winrate on Rialto, Circuit, and Paraiso, it's ridiculous) - but outside of those handful of scenarios he's way more challenging than pretty much every other main DPS in my experience. I suck at flankers, so I can't opine there. The issue is: you can counter him by literally looking at him, his timing and aim are just too predictable. This forces Hanzo players to constantly reposition and find new angles on maps that aren't already advantageous to him, and on many maps and against many comps this can be very risky if not borderline impossible. Also, missing a single shot is way more punishing on Hanzo than almost any other hero because you've now lost the element of surprise, and have a long draw time on your bow. Not to mention that he's fairly easy to dive, and especially if you get unfortunate enough to get a queue below like GM4, supports just don't seem to understand how much help a Hanzo needs if he gets dove by Winston for example. At least Widow can disengage across the map and Ashe can boop him off high ground, Hanzo just leaps a foot and a half away. Though it will never not be funny to be told that I'm just lucky by an enemy DPS, as they swap to Hanzo, and then never even hit me for the rest of the game as I'm doming them off CD. The hero does NOT play himself, I promise.

[@mangshu21]

its just sad how support players always gaslight you

[@Kat-xp8zn]

I do believe this is true...I used to have issues against Hanzo (tracer main) but recently..unless you are Arrge I do believe Hanzo is very weak in certain circumstances...ps: circuit blows lol even if can somewhat make my hero work, it really blows lol

[@theredguy92]

I have fun in overwatch by getting a huge blade, landing multiple headshots on hanzo, punching their whole team as doomfist, one clipping someone on tracer, sleeping a nano blade, 5 orbing a widow, destorying the enemy tank in rein 1v1, etc.. The devs have fun in overwatch by watching someone walk into their 3 sym turrets, cleansing a junkerqueen ult, getting a kill with torb turret from spawnroom, getting a kill with a moira orb that bounced around the map twice, popping turret form on a tank, lifegripping someone out of a grav, watching my pylon heal the team as i respawn.. We are not the same…

[@AnimeOtaku56.]

43:00 Paladins has this on all of its characters. After around 3+ seconds you start to slowly heal up and it ramps over time. It was actually more punishing in paladins because if you used a damaging ability or took damage it would reset. I definitely think that every person should have this passive. It sucks having to run all the way to a health pack and you’re not even full health. I also think that it would reduce toxicity both towards supports and against the other roles. How many times have you heard your dps screaming about sitting behind a support and not getting healed. Or the support just goes no when you ask for heals. While this isn’t something that happens all the time reducing toxicity was one of the main goals of OW2. If you could get yourself back to full in around 5-10 seconds of ooc I think that’s totally fair.

[@Link2855]

What if mercy had to mark a target as rezable within 2-3 seconds before they die in order to be able to rez them? It turns it into something that must be more proactive, and mitigates the feels bad scenario of pulling off a perfect pick no one saw coming only for the mercy to bring it back. If she can't anticipate the death, then she doesn't deserve to reverse it imo, especially considering that she can currently just press 2 buttons to reverse a pick that likely took much more skill to pull off.

[@matthewjungmann12]

The unanticipated death is kinda the only thing Rez has going for it considering pretty much every other support hero has some sort of immortality. Otherwise its just a way riskier lifegrip on a longer cooldown.

[@yiklongtay6029]

I agree with Fitzy that if anything has to be taken from Kiriko, it should be suzu. You can make the case that teleport and the kunai work synergistically as the occasional greedy flanker. So Suzu is the part you can remove with the least amount of disruption to the gameplay loop. And suzu is hated so theres' that

[@francismetherell4919]

Fitzy complains that sombra's power gets ruined by the cooldowns of his targets. Please allow me to serenade you with a song from the world's smallest violin.

[@Kittynelson4]

Here’s my take as a super casual gold rank console player. I work full-time and I’m in college so what I spend my free time on in games matters to me. I exclusively play DPS because that’s what’s fun to me. And overwatch 1 to 2 has been worse for DPS in almost every way in my opinion. Dps is incredibly unfun to play right now. And ever since season one of overwatch 2. Genji and Farah pockets rule almost every game and as a solo player, there is nothing I can do about it. Genji is particularly a pain point with the way console aiming works a character that has vertical elements and gets behind you very fast. Causes lots of problems. You can’t turn on a dime to chase him left, and right, you have to move your aim to the center of the screen no matter which way he goes. And that’s just a couple things that makes the game incredibly not fun. Not to mention supports and tanks are borderline Unkillable because of how high the healing is and how little room for error you have, when shooting. Supports have so many tools that require no thought or skill to just bail them out from every situation. Well, in high ranks, you might be able to punish that you can’t in the middle ranks you’re just simply not good enough. The game being so rock paper scissor, especially on DPS is just not fun to play because I’m getting a specific hero for a few games. One game I wanna play Bastian everyone’s talking about how busted he is. He He gets shit on by Genji in the metal ranks. Deflect is such a bullshit ability in overwatch one I could pick McCree and flahsbang as a DPS there’s nothing I can do about it and I can’t stop my other teammates from shooting it either . Sorry about another rant about Genji, but he’s the sole reason my entire friend group left the game, so I’m very bitter at him and it’s not entirely. His‘s fault the supports being able to keep him so alive is probably the bigger problem. There are so many other games out there right now I’m not gonna choose overwatch over the other games. I think this is a big problem for the game in general. To reach your broader audience You cannot balance around high end content all the time. You’re never gonna create broad appeal. None of my friends will play overwatch anymore. They’ve all quit. And it’s truly sad because I love the IP and overwatch one was one of my favorite games ever. I just really think 5v5 is a big problem. And supports being so obnoxiously strong ruins, the game. Turns out when you can’t kill anything in a shooter it’s not gonna be very fun. And yes a lot of these problems come down to it being a skill issue I get that but at the end of the day I’m not gonna spend my free time getting better at a game That for the most part Is balanced around you not having fun. Every season I give the game a chance because I truly do like the game at its core. But it continues to let me down So until things are fixed, I will continue to just consume the content around the game rather than play the game itself because it’s more fun to listen to you guys talk about overwatch than to play the game itself.

[@Kittynelson4]

Sorry for poor grammar and clunky sentences typing this out on my phone on my lunch break so it’s hard to see the whole big picture. I just wanna clarify on the situation with my friends The fact that overwatch two was free now, so there is no reason for them not to try it. I played around 600 hours worth of overwatch one over its lifecycle so I played it quite a bit. And I was really enthusiastic about getting them in the game. there’s about a 6 to 9 of us that would take turns playing together on any given night and we had a good time for about a few days. But they got sour at least 75% of our games were riddled with mercy pockets on Genji. And we would just get steamrolled because it’s hard to learn the game, especially on console when there’s this really fast moving character with the super punishing ability. So they all quit after about three weeks. If that character didn’t exist because the games where he wasn’t in there, we had a good time. They probably would’ve stuck around long-term with the game and probably each bought the battle pass. And I highly doubt this situation is exclusive to our little group. I think this is a problem that is overlooked with some of the cheesy ability characters in the game. I think it would be interesting if you had a conversation with some newer/lower skill players on what they would like to see changed. Because I healthy casual audience is what feeds content to the dedicated hard-core players. So, if you can’t keep your casual players around the game is doomed to fail.

[@DyLemmaOG]

"DPS with healing" accurately describes most supports. Support damage needs tuned down, especially bap and illari. Kragie explains it well, flankers are just way too hard to get value from even if you're top 500. The supports can easily outduel you and the supports are always right there to save each other, the best value on DPS right now is just standing with your team and poking the tank or supports when you can. Bastion is really good at this, exactly why he's strong right now.

[@joewylie8187]

let’s be real Dps players won’t be happy until they’re the only ones who can kill and supports are helpless heal bots. nerf illari dmg range hitbox. Change suzu to heal buff like Ana nade reduce Kiri headshot damage. swap bap lamp for a Lucio style boop, like kragie said reduce all bullet hit boxes delete sombra game fixed.

[@zoovaado7759]

@@joewylie8187yeah and supports aren’t happy if they have to use their brain at all to get value.

[@joewylie8187]

@@zoovaado7759 I flex both roles and have way more success on Dps. Supports always getting dove and targeted Dps just afk n shoot

[@zoovaado7759]

@@joewylie8187 and? You anecdotal evidence isn’t that relevant. The fact is everyone’s queuing supports for the past 2-3 seasons cause it’s by the far best and easiest to get value out of

[@joewylie8187]

@@zoovaado7759 nah both roles are easy there’s 2 strong supports that every Dps cries about but if supports couldn’t shoot back nobody would play support

[@forcekin1350]

Can we get a Cassidy rework? I'd love to see the grenade belt from the cinematic as his ult. Have it be thrown out, and Cassidy shoots it, making 5 or 6 grenades explode in a random area about the size of mei ult. Then replace that dumb hinder nade with a temporary dual weld. Have him pull out a second revolver, and after the second gun is empty, he puts it away. Ability goes on cooldown. While im at it, hot take, all of the one-shot heroes should only be able to one-shot if they're damage boosted by mercy or zen.

[@aplacewherefunandfunkythin705]

the cass take sounds fun the only issue is the burst from the second revolver might be too much

[@forcekin1350]

​@aplacewherefunandfunkythin705 I'm ok with a drop in damage per shot in exchange for 12 shots. Or an entirely new ability. No cc though. If there was a way to rework his ult into a cooldown that'd work too. Like a duel shot where he can only target one enemy hero with it.

[@strawberrydialectics]

@1:40:00 the audio cues really genuinely have been worse in ow2. i knew it would be worse one way or another from when they showed some preliminary audio before release. hearing widows heels from across the map, in generall things sounding close when they arent. i havent been playing much recently but has anyone else experienced cass gun sounding like a warehouse door slamming and bass boosted high noon? that shit hurts my ears. not to mention some cues cutting out sometimes, crouching not quieting footsteps (was that a bug or was it intentional?)

[@bberns8252]

Love when Fitzy is on the podcast. While he may have a limited hero pool that shapes his opinions, he’s very articulate and not afraid to check the other guests’ opinions

[@jaydon3119]

Kragie look like a caveman

[@SolRise_yt]

As a tank player, it's nice to see some agreement for how support is doing too much, and so dps is forced to focus the tanks. A lot of their suggestions to fix it are awesome. I would also agree tank needs a dps nerf overall, we don't need that much dmg to have opportunity. Just give us our opportunity windows back really.

[@Bismarck9871]

i main support and i honestly would take a dps nerf on most of then so long the healing remains more les the same i mean you playing the support role you must be aware what that entails mainly which is supporting having crazy abilities not exactly wow guys i am stacking kills or damage myself. but ofc thats too to say expecting the actual dps players to give a crap about helping you out when you ping the flanker traying to hunt your ass down

[@SolRise_yt]

@aldonavarrete987 it's not about stacking kills really. Support has some of the best escapes and or denies on cd. The problem is that support is too strong in terms of its healing and peeling output, so much that dps can't effectively shut you down, so they end up focusing the tank instead. It used to be focus support first then kill the tank. But it's almost become impossible to shut down the supports in the backline. Even a perfect engage will often not make a difference with both sleep, susu, immofield and kiriteleport at hand.

[@BeforeThisNovember]

I think why they made support stronger is to encourage more people to play them. Even now (in my rank at least) it’s the shortest queuing time.

[@brunoumbehend2655]

It is that blade's edge design that functions well. As fareeha says, sombra got more burst damage at the cost of survivability. Ana was great exactly because she had to choose wheter to nade herself or not. Skill expression is what made me fall in love with this game. A stupid example is genji and mcree(ow1) Who fucks up his E ability loses, its that simple yet thrilling Edit: Bad meta's discussion. If your hero is ultra easy to play, he should not be meta cause that's a indicator of the hero being overtuned

[@ReaveIdono]

Ease of use does not really have anything to do with if top tier or not. For example. You can have a Fight Game where there is a character that is S Tier with high execution but another character is S tier with low execution.

[@bockilover]

SVB you are a great host

[@misterbonk12]

Going off of what Kragie said, why is there not a standardization when it comes to things like projectile/hitscan size, role hitboxes etc. i feel like that could fix issues and make balancing easier. Like when queens hit box was way too big and that got reduced. Do life weavers petals still count as part of the hit box? WHY CAN KIRIKO BLOCK HEAD SHOTS WITH TICKETS? Like it wouldnt mess up the “hero identity” because it wouldnt mess with the specific abilities, i also understand its probably never going to happen since like the amount of work required to fix it on every character and skins and everything else but i wonder how the interactions would work with full standardization.

[@takamak4502]

Imagine a DPS passive like : destroying a shield or deployable reloads your weapon. Something like that, tweaked if too strong, but revolving around awareness & rewarding ''ability hunting'' while punishing poorly used deployables could be fun.

[@dantheman1998]

the supports need the passive because they do fall over and it sucks. in going to 5v5 the second tank that was suppose to peel for supports has now turned INTO the support passive. The tank didnt get the power of 2 tanks tanks the supports absorbed the power of the second missing tank.

[@verdant1029]

Format issue

[@siffumetsu271]

What supports are you playing that just fall over and die? Bap has lamp and burst, wever has the dash, Kiriko has teleport and suzu, Anna has grande, ilari has pylon, mercy has mobility and heals herself constantly if she is healing someone else, brig has an insane AoE heal, moira has orb and basic attack, and Lucio.... Well Lucio is just a speed demon and that is a skill issue lol but what support is falling over and needs this passive?

[@verdant1029]

@@siffumetsu271 they are talking about overwatch 2 in beta. You know, when the supports didn't have 50 escapes and higher damage output then half of the damage roster.

[@ow_oso]

Supports have been power crept to the point where if you're not playing at 100% you're not winning the game. I don't care if you're top fragging, getting the least amount of deaths, whatever. You have to be playing like an OWL pro to secure/carry wins at this point. Not to mention Illaris, Kirikos, Baptists, Zens, Anas, and Moiras are all DPSs now. The amount of confidence these players have taking 1v1s and 1v2s is astounding and I don't blame them, the out-of-jail-free-card abilities make it too easy. Not to mention the god awful mobility creep it feels like certain heroes lost their place in the game because of it. I'm biased but take into account my main, Cassidy. His slow ass is actually useless, apart from certain first point escort maps and contol, he's pretty much a throw pick thanks to how fast paced the game has become. Not to mention he has zero range, is as loud as a galloping horse and has no mobility, either you bot out on the enemy tank and spam your E or feed while attempting to flank unkillable supports(he can't get out cause of his outdated shift ability). I'm venting but he literally has no place in this game. The fact that a support duo can run down a 1 or 2 DPSs that don't have textbook-perfect positioning, AND THEN get out scott-free is ridiculous imo. At this point make all DPSs total overkill heroes w crazy mobility or tone down supports to how they were in early OW1. Bottom-line, *supports have turned into jack-of-all-trade raid bosses that lost their original purpose, to, trigger warning but someone has to say it, HEAL AND BUFF THEIR TEAMMATES* . Personal bitches, gripes, complaints: SUPPORT ABILITIES THAT MAKE YOU IMMORTAL OR UNKILLABLE SHOULD BE RESERVED FOR ULTIMATES I saw this coming back when Moira first dropped in OW1. Hard to kill, free out of jail card heroes that do too much shit make the game unfun for everyone. There's zero counterplay or outsmarting anymore. The game is rock, paper, fucking scissors and if you pick wrong, it's your ass. Hanzo shooting a random ass arrow into a group of enemies shouldn't get a kill, get a job plebs.

[@tbagger5211]

Bro a gold support can add value in a top 500 game no joke

[@ReaveIdono]

If you saw this coming eith Moira's release then it's clear you're not as good as you think you are. I love killing Moira's that have been bullying bad DPS players for games. They get so tilted.

[@zoovaado7759]

@@ReaveIdonoMoira was the start of the low skill high value support with a get out of jail card. You clearly completely missed the point.

[@ReaveIdono]

@@zoovaado7759 High value? Moira can't health death. Wtf are you talking about? Healing is the literal LEAST amount of value a support can provide. And her Damage is so low she can't win 1v1s against really skilled DPS players. But I can see where people believe she was the downfall because it exposed their low skill at the game lol.

[@zoovaado7759]

@@ReaveIdono still don’t understand the point I see, it’s not the about healing numbers. Numbers can and have been changed in patches for years. it’s about the core design of the hero… zero mechanical skill aoe healing without having to worry about positioning or awareness. She gets free value just by picking her. On ana if you can aim or position you aren’t doing shit for example. It’s not about how hard she is to hit or kill….

[@chargedelementscr]

what about letting the support passive only kick in when the support is out of combat? (not using abilities or gun, just wasd)

[@timallen5073]

I like the analogue of using certain heros as like an indicators species

[@AlexTheHorrid]

Take a shot everytime Deku says “you know what I’m saying?” You’ll be dead by the first hour

[@mr.izanami1796]

same vocabular usage as unsalted

[@sirisaac6225]

Or when someone says the word “annoying”

[@colton2680]

Please devs I hope they buff Cassidy’s range. It’s so stupid it’s 25. It’s a gun lmao. It should be 35-40.

[@samyegan5290]

They’re trying to make him into a mei brawler with his health and roll buffs but it feels so out of character for him

[@SpartanKyuubi]

I’ve been saying this a long time. But dumbasses say he shouldn’t out snipe a sniper. They don’t realize that a Magnum bullet does way more damage than a rifle caliber bullet. A headshot from a magnum should do way more damage than a headshot from a lever action rifle. The rifle only has advantage in precision and/or range because of bullet velocity over distance.

[@J.R.Swish1]

​@@SpartanKyuubiYou know not all revolvers are magnums right... McCree's gun is literally called "Peacekeeper" which is directly influenced and inspired by the Peacemaker a.k.a Colt Single Action Army. That just so happens to have an average effective range much shorter than a .44 Magnum. Also Overwatch is a game (don't know why i have to tell you this). Considering McCrees damage numbers, his effective range being what it is, is what makes him balanced. Any more and he's broken. That's why he was played more than any other dps when he was meta in like season 3 or whenever his range got buffed. Overwatch isn't meant to simulate real life and I have no idea what gave you that impression

[@SpiritedFalcon]

​@SpartanKyuubi It's a game full of magical abilites, why does realism matter? And realism in video games is trash anyways.

[@SpiritedFalcon]

For McCree: - Range increased from 25-35m to 25-45m. - HP reduced from 225 to 200 - Combat roll damage reduction reduced from 75% to 50% - Season 4 Magnetic Grenade brought back but no longer locks on.

[@Caedasheen]

Thank you for another great podcast, SVB :)

[@lashonawaldmeister1111]

I haven't played since OW2 came out, but I'm curious; Is the issue of the support passive more that it exists at all, or is it just that it kicks in way too quickly?

[@retro3856]

The best example of why the support passive is strong is Ana. In ow1 ana couldn’t heal passively therefore she had to either rely on her other support for healing or heal her self with bio nade, but with the passive she no longer has to worry about that and so she always has her abilities up especially bio nade and this applies to every healer they don’t need to use their abilities or make decisions because they are constantly being healed.

[@TheMatrixxProjekt]

As a support main that’s been dabbling in some damage recently, I think some of the complaining about damage being underpowered is overblown. Sure if you isolate the damage hero, it may seem like they’re kits are not as good as support or tank. But if you look at it in the context of a team fight, some damage heros are insanely impactful and single handedly turn fights IF you play with your team. Mei, Sym, Echo, and Widow have huge impact in the fight imo and have been what I’ve been using. I haven’t watched this full pod yet so maybe my mind will change, but that’s been my in game experience so far.

[@mangshu21]

try nanoblade vs kiriko bap, try to play hitscan vs a team with hitscan + mercy .. when you have to say if you play xyz it means the role is trash unless u play x..same with tanks where u have to play orisa or zarya. Against bad players dps is amazing but proper teams ain't gonna let you get away with bad positioning

[@myrinnjagim-kern7838]

Thank you!!!!

[@myrinnjagim-kern7838]

@@mangshu21 try any tank against the same situation. Dps just brain dead players l.

[@TheMatrixxProjekt]

@@mangshu21 I didn’t say you have to play xyz to for damage to be good, I just noted the heros I personally played with the most. Im pretty sure if people know how to play other damage heros, those can be good too. But note how I stressed the importance of working with your team. A lot of damage players have the idea that they should just be able to go in and clap the other team, when in reality OW is a team game.

[@J.R.Swish1]

If you only dabble in the role I'm sorry but your take is pretty much the same thing as an immigrant saying what it's like to grow up in a country you weren't born in

[@user-et3xn2jm1u]

1:09:40 Listening to Fitzy go through his 12-Step Method for getting anything done versus competent supports is cracking me up hard. Also, I feel like this is a point that the devs need to hear. Let's say they remove every "annoying" hero from the game. So no more Doomfist, Orisa, Roadhog, Hammond, Zarya, Bastion, Echo, Genji, Hanzo, Junkrat, Mei, Pharah, Sombra, Symmetra, Torbjorn, Tracer, Widowmaker, Ana, Brig, Kiriko, Lifeweaver, Mercy, Moira, or Zen. How many people are still playing the game? And maybe someone wants to argue "hey isn't annoying, they don't deserve to be removed" but no, that's the point. Whether or not you find these heroes annoying, people complain about them and how annoying they are. Your own personal preferences might differ, and that's the whole point. The game offering a wide variety of playstyles is what draws/drew people in.

[@imfamouswarrior2976]

Think the two main points from the 3 podcasts is certain characters have powerful abilities that aren’t dynamic (lack skill shot factor and/or counter play) and focused targets either seem unkillable with the right tank and support comp or things just get nuked instantly if a small mistake is played. It was funny seeing most everyone feel their roles the weakest outside a character or comp, guess that means the games balanced? Definitely doesn’t mean its necessarily fun.

[@DrBodyshot]

I felt that Pharah = Soldier playstyle cause that's the kind of playstyle I actually love doing with her. I rarely use her boop as an actual boop. I almost always use it as a mobility tool to get in and out of an engagement to do dive bombs

[@kiel1998]

wtf was that sex appeal comment 😂

[@ethanwebber7854]

One commonality among small three debates has been complaining about Kiriko. Probably not much to it but maybe she is just broken?

[@KingOfNebbishes]

Kiriko has headshot potential to two tap while also having great mobility and healing. If she had two of the three she'd be strong. She has all three AND a cleanse ability, though.

[@Vsauce596]

2:06 damn something mustve went down to have you cut like that lmao