The Great Season 13 Debate feat. kraandop, Bogur & Reinforce

[@GroupUp]

This episode was recorded on 29th October 2024. Podcast links below! If you're enjoying this content, why not let SVB know on his stream (www.twitch.tv/svb_ ) The best way to support the podcast is still www.patreon.com/svb Soundcloud: soundcloud.com/ow_svb/the-season-13-debate Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/6sRWutKTc0gnWuguo62Vpa Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/svbs-group-up/id1490256265

[@DESPAIR_714]

Kraan in a group up ep is actual PEAK 🔥

[@GetQuakedOn]

49:30 - 53:25 i 100% agree with this. i really wish the game was balanced based on how difficult a character is. being rewarded for pushing the skill ceiling of a hero is what makes a game like ow fun. i enjoy playing the harder characters so maybe im being bias but when i see people pick easier heroes and put in much less effort than me yet get more value it feels like shit. im doing all of this work just to see someone with their monitor turned off doing more than me. ever since season 9+ changes happened i think its time to accept that Overwatch is now a modern game and the balance focus is to make the casual players feel like they're good at the game without actually being good at the game. i find it very sad that this is the direction a game like OW decided to head to. It's like pulling out a chess board and saying "okay we are playing checkers"... like no man i wanna play chess on the chess board.

[@masongrant9140]

This. I watched a couple old ow1 videos and was literally shocked at how much skill expression there was in heroes such as genji and even widow

[@donovan4222]

I agree, the game should be balanced around more skill equating to more value. Nobody wants the brain dead heroes to be meta and get automatic value. A high skill floor has to be offset by a low skill ceiling and vica versa.

[@Qwmp-]

The recurring theme of OW2 has been to make defensive abilities significantly stronger and easier than offensive abilities. What results is that the entire identity of overwatch (getting huge play of the games, pulling off huge combos) has been reduced by ~ 75% because the vast majority of attempted plays are undone by support cooldowns. Ask genji mains how their blades have been in ow1 vs ow2, its night and day and completely unfun.

[@manh-haimuller6027]

100% agree! Juno is an easy support compared to Lucio! Almost everything on Juno is EASY value (busted) BUT Juno doesn't have an ability that is broken like lamp or Suzu but Her ULT is just the best!!! it gives insane everything!!!

[@crustychildren]

DPS doomfist and echo are great examples of high difficulty heroes with a high reward

[@nietbarkie1380]

KRAANNNNN WWWWWWWWWW

[@ObeseWizard]

What a refreshing cast! Thanks for hosting SVB

[@Azrael_Xx_]

Okay so I am not pro 6v6 or 5v5, i don't really care anymore. But the observation of this is pretty funny to me. 4 tank players in the call, trying to defend 5v5 while 3/4 of them do not even play tank anymore and complain how miserable tank is to play. Like.. any self reflection? No? None? Okay.

[@darkcat6530]

I mean tank is miserable to play regardless theres a reason it was always the least played role

[@inoo2345]

​@@darkcat65306v6 tanks had a bad chance since there were I believe only 9 tanks in the game and the role was completely neglected in every way. When tanks were broken tank players weren't happy either. And oftentimes it wasn't the tanks that broke the meta but the supports did. The reason double shield and goats were viable was because of brig being released for goats, and her not being nerfed in time when bap and sigma came out for double shield together with those heroes individually releasing in broken states as well. Also the priority pass made tanks less fun to play. If you want a good vid explaining why priority pass made everything even worse there's a guy on yt that has a good vid about it

[@darkcat6530]

@@inoo2345 i mean supports had even less characters to use yet they still didn't suffer nearly as badly with queue times, i don't the priority pass was a good idea either and while i agree supports do have a factor in this (and still have till this day) lets not deny that two tanks is still fundamentally powerfull. the reason double shield worked is because stacking mutiple damage mitigation abilities is fundamentally frustrating. it sucks that you can make progress to destroy a shield only for it to be replaced with another shield. even if you removed orisa out off the equation you still have stuff like rein dva where it doesn't matter you broke reins shield cause he's getting covered by a dva matrix, doesn't matter you caught the hog in a bad position because he's getting bailed out by a zarya bubble. by far the most hated mechanics in the game are the cooldowns that just bail anyone out easily wether it's lamp, suzu, life grip or rez. people just don't like their plays being denied and thats bassicly what 2 tanks do every game. you get no space to occupy because theres always a tank somewhere, if the two tanks work together well you could never kill one off them by yourself and you could never push without your entire team going in. and when the 2 tanks weren't working together it just made them so easy to kill it was frustrating on the other side, it just feels like a slog to get trough when you're playing winston but the dva never follows up on anything you ever do

[@inoo2345]

@@darkcat6530 If bap and brig weren't added to the game a comp with sig and Orisa without the heroes being out right broken themself, would've been impossible to play. and ofc support doesn't have the same low numbers of players that tank does. tank has always been the least popular role in any game. that will most likely never change but it shouldn't have been as bad as it was during ow1. as for 2 tanks being annoying, the only time people were really complaining was when the game was goats or double shield. during dive people might not have liked the meta but they didn't blame it on there being too many tanks on the field. and the reason tanks like dva and zarya have these abilities like dm and bubble is cause they couldn't do much on their own and were there to help setup a fight rather than try to shut down an attack in most cases. And if you did try to shut down someone else's play that meant you had a good chance of losing the fight to the enemy tanks. Unlike support which purely uses their abilities to save teammates, tanks like zarya/dva and even sig when played with a dps on a angle were there to set their team up for a big play. Support is a more reactive role meaning you need to force them to use their abilities, where as the offtanks would mostly use their abilities before the fight fully kicked off (other than sig which had a bit of a unique role)

[@darkcat6530]

@inoo2345 double shield still would've existed without bap brig those supportd just reinforced that composition, And people complained all the times about tanks wether it was playing them or playing agains them. They had to be balanced where they can't easily lose a 1v1 ever which makes taking any space agianst them as a non tank impossible which further denied plays

[@ThumbShovem]

Making a straw-man of 6v6 enthusiasts is gettin old. No one who advocates for it believes it will fix everything, but it's an improvement from 5v5 because solo tank is absolute misery.

[@bambampewpew32]

yeah it's actually fucking wild and borderline gaslighting lmao

[@xRichieeex]

I wish bogur would stop saying things like 6v6 is not going to fix everything . Nobody that wants 6v6 thinks it’s going to fix everything, we just basically thought the game was way more fun in 6v6 even with the imbalancing that comes with it.

[@Ccscenario]

he wants to be flats so bad lmao

[@ziek3012]

I think he knows but I understand why he keeps saying it. It's because for every sensible person there is someone so dumb they think a format will fix everything. So while repeating it might be tiresome to you and me, it is probably needed for all the dumb dumbs out there.

[@chaos9790]

queue times would never make 6v6 worth it imo

[@s0meweird_boi339]

Queue times for dps are just as bad as OW1, a game with a price tag that got abandoned. Maybe the problem isn't the format, but Role Lock itself.

[@Jessespresso]

​@@s0meweird_boi339 open queue is pretty dead in comparison though. I'm curious what the new role queue changes will bring to the game

[@X_MANGO__]

Reinforce is a breath of fresh air on the pod. Very respectful and fair takes

[@Anton_Jermakoŭ]

Reinforce smokes some serious tuff on his 6v6 test takes wdym

[@AdrianGK47]

As a 6v6er he had reasonable takes ​@Anton_Jermakoŭ

[@lilpharma]

It's pretty odd how 5v5 made Bogur literally abandon Winton and the tank role in general (along with so many others) yet he defends it so hard against 6v6. Like bro u don't even play tank anymore, u heal bot on Lifeweaver stfu 🤫

[@X_MANGO__]

@@lilpharma yeah I don't understand it.

[@IOUAK9]

He is an actual shill, nothing wrong with that, but thats how it is.

[@jimbobbilly7653]

I mean it makes sense. Most of the casual playerbase is used to 5v5 now, it's more casual friendly. 6v6 is better in a perfect world where everyone qs all roles equally, but that's not the case.

[@bambampewpew32]

@@jimbobbilly7653 as a former casual it was way more fun than any part of ow2 has been.

[@bambampewpew32]

LMFAO DUDE I KNOW RIGHT, LIKE WHAT is bogur's logic, bro does not think

[@ratchetst3v38]

The vast majority of 6v6ers don't mind 5v5 and can acknowledge the pros and cons of both formats; we literally just want the option to still play the old game. Every time a major change happened (hero limits, role lock), an arcade mode of the previous version was kept around (just like how Minecraft lets you play older versions with different combat, features, etc). The 5v5 change is the ONLY time we have not had the option to for this outside of custom games/discord groups, and outside of server demands, there is next to no legitimate reason any dev or 5v5 enthusiast has provided for why this is the case. I get that it's the content creator thing to overexaggerate for views/reactions, but it's wild to even pretend as if everyone who liked 6v6 is "conspiratorial." The Eskay method of comparing people who like a different game from you to insane politicians/voters is beneath you SVB...

[@professoradonis8246]

Well said brother

[@X_MANGO__]

Booger is an idiot

[@BigMamaBlack]

Real I’m so tired of the loud minority representing a whole group.

[@lordenbogo6972]

Preach 🤯😤

[@Real_MisterSir]

I straight up had to close the podcast at that point. The mental gymnastics that some content creators go through and indirectly (or directly sometimes) belittle the intelligence of the average player is crazy. I love Bogur for many things but his absurd exaggerations on 6v6 advocation is just way over the top. We had 6 years of experience with 6v6. Pretending we dont know the game mode or misremember how it was is just so below a person like Bogur who is actually very smart

[@thor_father8737]

Honestly a really good podcast and its a nice breath of fresh air from the most recent ones, they were getting pretty stale. You should definitely continue to bring in new faces or at least mix it up more often, Kraandop, Bogur, and Reinforce were amazing! Maybe next podcast we could see Supertf? Guru? Maybe Jay3?

[@X_MANGO__]

Can't wait for 6v6. Nerf healing, nerf tanks. Mmmmm so good

[@megamecha100]

Damn, you know the discussion is one-sided when SVB has to be the one to bring up the opposing arguments multiple times

[@CypherOfSolace]

What if....Sombra Virus was a melee ability with some kind of backstab interaction?

[@therealzahyra]

I like this a lot

[@dontaskdude682]

What if they also made Sombra wear a balaclava and speak in a French accent. Like she's undercover or something

[@atkvin]

Love this idea. I'd gladly kick Virus to the curb for Sombra to regain more utility - but with how team-dependent that utility version was, I would not at all mind avenues for more individual skill expression in exchange for some of her busted mobility. A melee applying a DoT would be novel too edit: wait I haven't slept, this might be a Spy joke. I thought tying Virus to landing a melee was a neat idea

[@funbun420]

Spy from tf2 lol

[@joshneal4767]

Yeah bogur is getting annoying AF on these. We get you don't want 6v6 but shut up and let people want to play what they want

[@Ccscenario]

is bogur the 5v5 knight or what, we just trying to test 6v6 and have fun, its not the holy and only solution but just a change of pace.

[@КириллВинокуров-б6з]

From his streams it seems like he doesn't like ow at all. Rather deadlock and Rivals. Which is understandable

[@emiyaann4688]

He wants to bring people back to reality,people think 6v6 is gonna solve all issues

[@KingAssRipper69]

He's been engagement farming for a while

[@ondrejlukas326]

He isn't even an overwatch player anymore

[@Real_MisterSir]

@@emiyaann4688shut up literally nobody says that except 5v5 elitists who have run out of good arguments

[@b23beatz]

Lot of 6v6 strawman arguments on this one. Shouldve had samito on everyone just agreeing with eachother isnt productive

[@kubaxterg9994]

For real

[@megamecha100]

Unfortunately guests have said on past episodes that they don't want to be on with samito. He will make them have to have an actual debate instead of just everyone agreeing with each other for multiple hours lol

[@kubaxterg9994]

@@megamecha100 lol for real

[@felipetrujillo6135]

The Ramattra hate is crazy. Leave my boy alone

[@danielw8776]

I didn't realize anyone hated him tbh. I hate playing tank but Ram is one of my favorite characters to play.

[@neodaltiair8624]

‘Tactical Sombra’ aka hide in open space with perma stealth and hack insta burst a target or emp in the middle of the enemy team to cancel all counter play. So tactical and strategic

[@megamecha100]

@@neodaltiair8624 FR LMAO

[@cheeseballs4551]

Is is just me or has bogur gotten really intolerable as of lately? Dude really needs to take a break cause oh my god is he an overdramatic whiner

[@X_MANGO__]

@@cheeseballs4551 he's extremely cringe. Dude is like 30 and making sigma face all podcast long.

[@JoltOfJoy]

You only just now noticed? He’s been becoming increasingly more insufferable since last year. I wish him the best though

[@alexandriasukumaran6466]

​@@X_MANGO__bogur is like 23 man. jesus

[@Real_MisterSir]

Ok I'm frankly sick and tired of certain content creators who keep saying "people think 6v6 will somehow solve everything". Fuck off. Nobody says that. People say 6v6 will offer a FOUNDATION to improve the game more than 5v5 does. And its a game format we have 6 years of experience with already to pull data and knowhow from. 5v5 has always been the wild card and 2 years post launch we're still debating how to solve the solo tank role to the point where everything gets gigabuffed and the game is reworked every half year or so. I can't. If 6v6 is a topic, make sure at least there is somewhat equal representation. Not to argue, but to present viewpoints that both sides can better understand cus dear lord some of these takes on 6v6 presented are just obnoxious at this point.

[@redd2689]

well damn said

[@diegocorvalan5435]

You say that but people keep showing clips and then saying "6v6 would fix this" at this point It does feel like 6v6 should cure cancer to live to expectations

[@b23beatz]

A small small minority says that. They need to speak about people like samito who acknowledges the issues that comes with both 5v5 and 6v6

[@b23beatz]

​​@@diegocorvalan5435you're listening to a vocal minority. Most 6v6 players just prefer it. As a gm tank player in ow1 and 2 I prefer 6v6 I do not enjoy solo tank I stopped playing tank because it's just not even close to as fun. Counter swapping is much worse in 6v6 you can play around counter swapping in 5v5 but that gameplay loop is boring to me. Where as in 6v6 you have more options for counterplay without directly counter swapping. More choice is better

[@Real_MisterSir]

@@diegocorvalan5435 a very small minority. And those clips on X and tik tok are just about the most shallow medium you could imagine. If that's what the perception of discourse is based on by a creator, that's their own made issue at that point. In any legitimate discussion or thread, nobody thinks 6v6 will solve everything. When people (in general) say something could be fixed by 6v6, the implied meaning is that 6v6 offers the foundation to better solve that issue. Just like Hog isn't a solved tank by just switching to 6v6, but he will be damn easier to manage his extremes in a 6v6 format, than the 5v5 format. Same with Ana nade for example when people keep crying about that any time it has any sense of power to it. 6v6 offers a foundation to make it less oppressive compared to 5v5. And most things are like this, because most things were inherently developed for 6v6 in mind in the first place so no wonder 6v6 can offer "A" solution to many problems. Not the perfect solution to everything, but many solutions to many problems. If it didn't offer more solutions (chief among which is gameplay enjoyment overall), people wouldn't advocate for it.

[@moistwindow6094]

Ice cold take, make junkensteins lab an unranked game mode, no swaps, full cast, straight goofy stuff, then balance the normal cast/normal game mode(s) competitively, no more half concessions for casuals. Trying to play both sides on balance is ass, you wanna have silly fun? Lab. wanna learn? Unranked. Wanna be competitive? Comp.

[@X_MANGO__]

2-2-2 is the only way. Not having 2-2-2 be the first playtest is doing 6v6 dirty

[@ondrejlukas326]

Them wanting to keep passives and reworks is fucked as well, pro meta is gonna just be 3-0-3 or 3-1-2 with like queen mauga zar venture/moira brig lucio, the AOE is gonna kill the test

[@christianalexander6364]

​@@ondrejlukas3263-0-3 won't be possible due to the Min 1 hero limit

[@ondrejlukas326]

@christianalexander6364 oh shit you're right my bad, so it's just gonna be the technical 4-2 cause venture is just a mini tank lol

[@diegocorvalan5435]

How do you fix q tho?

[@primus_03]

@@ondrejlukas326 No they dont want to keep the passives, please read before spreading missinformation

[@petrparkr8011]

I love this podcast because it brings different opinions and perspectives, but unfortunately this one is just boring because they all agree on everything all there takes are the same it's like watching someone talk to himself 😂 I would have loved to see Spilo or and people who have different takes not to say anything bad about these guys theyy fine but specifically this episode is just boring but thanks Svb anyway❤.

[@b23beatz]

Exactly what I said. Circle jerk made this episode pretty boring . I don't care if they disagree but when nobody is willing to play devil's advocate what's the point

[@Waywurd08]

@@petrparkr8011 need spilo realth Samito and freedo to really go

[@Melix0ff]

Wow, Bogur is so passive aggressive and toxic, even for me as a general overwatch player without preferences (5x5 or 6x6 i mean). That was actually hard to listen to him for half of the podcast

[@AarPlays]

The falloff removal made literally everyone go "wtf???" I dont know how that wasnt reintroduced.

[@MofoMan2000]

6v6 had low lows, but so does 5v5. I don't think one of them was worse than the other. Tanks in OW2 right now make all interactions with them into a low low.

[@TheTran5cend]

Nice. I love the variety of guests. This should be really good.

[@IHJello]

Wjat an absolute banger of an episode. So much good conversation. Im in heaven.

[@johnsaunders7257]

Sombra was nerfed because the widowmaker mythic skin wouldn't sell.

[@Dario11457]

The 6v6 takes are embarrassing. NO ONE IS CLAIMING 6v6 WILL FIX EVERYTHING. Many changes have to be made to make 6v6 work. (Immortality field and brig) But I firmly believe that 6v6 under the current team will be handled much better than ow1 and will lead to an overall much better experience overall BY FAR. But no it will not make a magically perfect game, such a massive and weird take to have.

[@Waywurd08]

@@Dario11457 they sound like they miss 6v6 so bad but are just being doomers and naming a bunch of non existent and unprovable points

[@waynetec13]

I haven't played OW in months, but I still love the pod. I'd really like to hear another metal rank pod. (not like the last one, where most of the guests were diamond/masters. I'm talking PEAK gold or plat.) It would be good to hear from the "silent majority" instead of "just another" group of the top 1%.

[@Jordan-yl2xs]

I'm convinced Reinforce is Kraandop's father in game and IRL

[@nealhodge8560]

Bruh their voices are so similar

[@amerhst1201]

Bogur you stopped playing tank in 5v5. Accept that it is just worse than 6v6.

[@Waywurd08]

@@amerhst1201 honestly it’s weird that he’s saying all this when literally nobody plays tank anymore. Don’t you think of 5v5 was working more people would want to come to the game and also play tank?

[@DNYLNY]

⁠​⁠​⁠@@Waywurd08open queue is full of tanks and dominate the leaderboards tho. So I don’t think it’s really a 5 v 6 thing, it’s more of a role thing. I think tanks just don’t like playing alone and having the pressure of being The Tank. And if it was 6v6 with 1 tank they’d still feel that way. But I’m still looking forward to the 6v6 rollout and min 1 max 3 system.

[@Waywurd08]

@@DNYLNY they’d still feel the pressure of being a solo tank if they were a solo tank. As a tank main in ow1 the feeling of big plays, beating opponents with strategy instead of mechanical skill, synergizing with another tank and improving on that synergy over time, and not being counterswapped constantly was a lot more fun

[@Nynzy]

Junkenstein's Lab clearly takes some inspiration from Paladins, and I am all for that. Taking inspiration from a game and innovating upon it is how we gett things to be better quality overall. Hope OW can put their own twist on it and make it better~

[@Drwiggles69]

listening to this ep on a side monitor while playing WoW and omg does this make me glad I took a break when I did. Widow/orisa meta sounds like hell

[@ninthfriend3347]

I don't play comp anymore so I struggled trying to find a reason to play this game. But the Junkenstein mode felt so refreshing after so long. I am sad that it is limited time but happy that it's pretty popular and is still being played. Hopefully they'll cook more with this in the future and possibly add it as one of the core modes? It feels very replayable to me because of this progression feel with the talents.

[@comq01]

Arcade is just not popular i feel like the mode would die out very quickly if it became permanente. Biggest issue however is creating and balancing talents for ALL heroes, can you even imagine what it would look like? One of the reasons PvE failed, its way too much work and almost impossible to achieve

[@gap0011]

I wana say that I really like all these guys. But I dont understand how we have 4 tank players on a podcast trying to defend 5v5 when only one of them even queues tank regularly anymore and even the one that still queues it is saying that the queues are INSTANT.....like.....YEAH.....of course it is! The whole argument AGAINST 5v5 is that tank feels like crap to play. It feels so much better to play tank in 6v6

[@tysonb2844]

where’s my episode with super tf

[@X_MANGO__]

Oh no!!!!! Queuing into a roadhog otp!!! How is that any different then queuing into a mercy or lw otp now??? Shit is still fucking ass. Personally I'd rather have a roadhog as my tank partner then be a solo tank.

[@Waywurd08]

@@X_MANGO__ SO TRUE

[@Waywurd08]

We really need realth on the podcast, the guy will literally be able to break down every single 5v5 and 6v6 problem with ease. It’s just insane how top level players can’t even recognize the core issues of the game, but still won’t admit it’s AoE sustain, immortality abilities, mobility creep, and 5V5!!!

[@b23beatz]

I agree

[@yeetadog]

100%

[@Highvalue365]

No tanks just need to have lower mobility with a high survivability and boom tank fixed, 5v5 is fixed

[@Waywurd08]

@ How does that fix counterswapping, how does a dva with less mobility survive against a zarya?

[@Waywurd08]

@@Highvalue365 did this joke go over my head

[@florentwinleaf3462]

Might just be me but ever since SVB stopped playing the game he's starting to be a bore that just weights down the overall conversations that are happening and I can't help but feel like the conversations are being stunted as a result. He used to add a lot to the show as a host but now its like "oh I dont play so tell me what you think" very zzzz tbh Sorry :/

[@seke9885]

Agreed

[@hartyewh1]

Shield could just halve the damage from Ramatra and maybe x1.5 to the shield.

[@sjfortson]

Sombra's "stealth" comes with quite loud sound cues, rivaling Reaper's bold declarations when "flanking."

[@sjfortson]

Also, the reason why they made her leave invisibility when hacking is because it reduces the delay before she can start damaging after a hack (there is a delay between pressing left click and actually shooting when starting in stealth).

[@Qwmp-]

The identity of the game has been totally sabotaged by the ever increasing ease with which supports can cancel or outheal offensive plays. Overwatch was known for its teamwork (tank combos) and huge plays like 6k blades, grav dragons, massive Dva bombs, etc. In OW2 the health pools, healing levels, and escape abilities mean these sorts of plays are verging on being mathematically impossible to pull off. Most casuals or support players don't understand because they were never taking risks or making plays to begin with, and are enjoying running the lobby denying all value while barely conscious. It baffles me that people will still actively shill for a version of the game whose "big moments" have been objectively cut in half if not more. Not to mention the fact that this entire game was based off a scam (pve) and has had nothing but massive balancing issues since its launch.

[@Waywurd08]

@@Qwmp- it’s because of the doomers and zoomers that are just addicted but don’t wanna rip the wool off. There’s people that love this game that can’t play it anymore, and then they’re the brainless people who are indifferent and don’t want to think about it. It’s political that way.

[@Norfyo]

Do not let Reinforce cook again, thanks!

[@endless_del]

min 1 max 3 actually brings really interesting balance opportunities if we take the idea behind kingmaker and apply it here, too. they can make a "base" balance of a role/hero, and nerf or buff that base based on how many of that role are in a match. for example, 2 tanks have the vanilla stats. but if there's only one, they have buffed health and/or damage. if there's 3, they have nerfed health and/or damage relative to the base. i think that could actually really work and open up counterplay to the inevitable 3 tank comps. at high levels, it will likely end up being so each team has one role that is buffed, one role that remains vanilla base stats, and one role that is nerfed. maybe having support be the buffed role (with only one player on it) rather than dps can be a viable strategy against a 3 tank comp depending on the individual hero pools of your teammates. oftentimes at pro/high level, the stats of the hero is more important than the individual players' skillset and strengths. having the actual stats of a hero be fluid will provide an extra layer of strategy in team composition

[@borisvandepoel2703]

Yeeeeees finally Kraandop, the undisputed goat!

[@MaskyFalle]

The Sombra invis only being 5 seconds really doesn’t feel as bad as they claim IMO. By the time the 5 seconds is up, there’s only 1 second left on the cooldown so just find a corner or piece of cover to hide behind for 1 sec then throw your translocator at the floor to restealth immediately. I have no issue sneaking up on widowmakers just like before once I got used to it.

[@harrisonfelice8160]

Haven't seen these sorta comments in a while so ill say it again: SVB is a fantastic podcast host please never stop doing these king 🙏

[@brandonshort63]

Hey SVB, in a future episode I'd love to hear you talk about what Overwatch could do to get you to come back and play. These 3 Chungus' have great input but they're already playing everyday. The input of a veteran player who isn't playing any longer might be the input Blizzard needs to hear most

[@EJW2003]

The issue with double translocator with stealth attached is enabling perma stealth again. Stealth and translocator needs to be on seperate cooldowns and hack and virus should be combined

[@lefay5082]

Making translocator cool down longer is the worst thing you can do. If it is too long then I just have to sit there in invis in the backline until it ends so I can translocate again to escape. Just make the stealth its own ability again and give it a duration.

[@CoconutYoyo]

They should do a experimental card with tanks where they make changes to balance that lean heavily in a specialization at the cost of something else to the same extent. Meaning they should create three groups of four tanks. One group heavily favors dps/speed potential but has very low hp/armour, the next group is the inverse where it has low dps/speed potential but high hp/armour/shields and the last is mediocre at both dps/health but has high uptime on utility abilities. So less balanced tanks overall but leaning very heavily on dps potential, tanking potential or utility potential while sacrificing the other two outcomes. The tanks are too good at everything while also feeling lackluster at specific things at times, if that makes any sense. Just do a experimental card test and see how it turns out. Maybe its terrible

[@natedavis2944]

Kraan and bogur? Some of my favorites

[@EJW2003]

28:30 I think Sumbera’s hack and virus should be combined. Idk why they combined her mobility options and not make hack on a skill shot

[@Crit7k]

That’s actually a smart idea

[@mateotobarr]

What if Juno's Ult was actually a 0 Gravity field moving forward and gave all your allies Valk's movement but slower?

[@actionmarco8556]

Kraan on is nice

[@toxic_icecream]

Asking a high rank competitive player if pve is good is doomed to fail, because of the "fighting people is more fun" answer. Give them elden ring they'd prefer pvp game New mode popular because of lack of hero swaps is debatable, because I'm 100% sure that all people on rein wished they could switch vs me on orisa

[@hoolly]

no matter if we go 5vs5 or 6vs6 - we need to rework still half of the roster for any mode. Let him pierce through shield BUT he will not dmg the shield at all - its just insane to make 130 in one punch - 65 dmg to shield and 65 dmg to the hero health pool Think about in that relation - Juno Ultimate does more heal than LW Tree AND you also get dmg boost and its not destroyable. Less heal if you want to keep the dmg or if you want to keep both - lower down both NO we dont need fucking comp system or something else in junk lab! We need a fun mode and not everything should be comp!

[@YeOldeBum]

My take on a potential Sombra change: Passive - getting a kill on a hacked target gives her a 2 second stealth with 30% movement speed, 1 second after disengaging from a fight. Hack - scrambles enemy hud, doesnt break stealth, doesnt disable abilities, refreshes virus except for transfer. Is still able to be interrupted by damage. Virus - does ~10-15 health damage, bypassing shields, armor, shield health, but not overhealth. Also spreads to other enemies within ~3m of primary target hit. Duration of 5s, or 2-3 damage per second, transfer to secondary targets window is 1s after primary target is hit. Breaks stealth. New(ish) ability: Incognito - gives her stealth for 10-15s with 10% movement speed, hacking breaks this stealth, whether its an enemy or health pack. Translocator - same as it is now. EMP - proc’s hacked on any enemies in her range but also reduces peripheral vision (like illaris ult), refreshes virus debuff on enemies (including transfer proc), proc’s hinder for 5s as well. Also increase her spread for her weapon, and slightly nerf per bullet damage.

[@aaronolson6736]

We have enough variety in the Tank role that even if you were to get 2 DPS players who queued tank there's a workable comp. That said I completely agree with the take of making Offtank/Bruiser its own role in 6v6 and hopefully Phreak will be built like a Main Tank to help the distribution a bit.

[@yamchacrater2913]

I think no matter what it will at least become an arcade mode. They won’t tell 6v6 players that it’s gone forever after the tests end

[@toxic_icecream]

On 6v6 and 5v5 conversations: different people, same questions are being asked, same answers are being presented. I'll be honest, the fact that you queue instantly on tank just proves how much it sucks to play the role. In 5v5 how many people confirm my experience of tank being unplayable, the group here of "formerly tank mains", and then somehow the opinion that "tank is just unpopular role" is still here? If the situation was like that things won't be that bad. Saying it won't work in 6v6 when it doesn't work in 5v5 isn't helpful

[@thommy7393]

I can tell none of these 3 guests have actually engaged with any of the strong 6v6 arguments made by people like Samito or Hawk in good faith. They are constantly crying about Tank stacking. I only heard the word sustain once and it was not even discussed further. Honestly a bit disappointing from these guys. Almost all 6v6ers heavily emphasize the importance of keeping sustain abilities from the dlc heroes like Brig, Baptiste and Moira in check. The problem of Goats and double shield was a support problem. It was not a support that was being switched out for Sombra in the late Goats era. It was a Tank. The change to 6v6 HAS to be accompanied by serieus overhauls to these ridiculous AOE sustain abilities. THAT is what will make this game better. Not just the change to 6v6. :) Have a lovely day everyone!

[@thepoofster2251]

Get out here debate bro! No one cares about you and your "strong arguments"

[@christianalexander6364]

Bro they literally all mentioned that if 6v6 popped off, they would be fine for the entire game switching over to it tf

[@lulass-z6r]

But you all think this dev team is incompetent XD, strong 6v6 arguments include calling the dev team trash and incompetent. So they would suddenly become competent in 6v6?

[@Thehatter106]

Never beating the zealot allegations

[@itzpurple_queen9711]

All 3 guests are mainly tank players so obviously they would be kinda biased.

[@lexakarii1408]

"...and bogur" 😂😂😂😂

[@jeremylandry70]

The newest game mode for OverWatch coupled with the failed PVE assets is the perfect breeding ground for the birth of The OverWatch MOBA!

[@TeaHauss]

Orisa having her falloff removed was the biggest miss, let her be mostly brawl with some poke, not good at both. On giving characters more options, I think its silly that all three Orisa abilities stop rein charge, like at least let him cancel unfortified javelin spin. Sombra having two translocators is a cooking idea, like having two tracer blinks but vertical. maybe make the window between stealth end and next translocator be 2.5/3 seconds to compensate?

[@User-pu3lc]

Orisa’s identify should be a peel tank. Nerf her damage and make her shots apply a slow that stacks over time with more shots hit. Her goal is to protect and peel her teammates with displacement, body blocking and her aoe ult. She would have limited attack options around catching mis-positioned opponents out for teammates to clean up on.

[@astaticELLINGTON]

I never imagined i would confuse kraans voice with someone else lol how wild

[@hollyrowlands6943]

how stoned is Bogur lmaooo 😂

[@Kingjoffrey12]

all 6v6 argument really boils down to is 2 tanks is better than 1. and i agree. it sucks having one person take so much responsibility in 5v5

[@Dizzy205]

so this whole time I thought reinforce's name was pronounced "rein-force" (like Reinhardt). I'm very disappointed and wish I could unknow this information.

[@TheTomKatt92]

Kraan on the show makes me want to listen in, even if SVB is zzz

[@flyingfajitas]

I've been saying what Reinforce has said for a while. Some DPS can be made off tanks, and normal off-tanks would slide into that role. No reason why Bastion or Mei can't be moved to off-tanks.

[@D9bi]

did people actually try the ram rework before the revert?

[@viktorradosavljevic702]

Loved seeing Kraand on here, hope we see more of him in the future 😃

[@Xiatter]

I don't really like the idea of tanks having rapid-fire weapons PLUS high-survivabliity being a part of (or intended part) of their kit.

[@xAtlasOnFirex]

My biggest issue with ow nowadays is the mobility creep. It feels like everyone has a crazy mobility option now. Especially newer characters

[@dillonu.4975]

The swtich to 5v5 was NOT driven by queue times. It was purely for gameplay reasons.

[@itzpurple_queen9711]

It was because the previous gen consoles couldn’t handle the new engine with 6v6.

[@auline8531]

​@itzpurple_queen9711 And queue times too

[@CoconutYoyo]

Also they should change Rematra's block ability to a timed ability, with cooldown period. So only active for 4/5 seconds but all the damaged absorbed is transferred to his punches adding either damage, range or a combination of both at lower values than specifically damage vs range. Or give him a added utility when a certain damage threshold is reached such as added speed or quicker cooldowns or he becomes enraged for a small period with his omnic eyes turning red etc. They should make the block only last a specific amount of time and punish the enemy for shooting you. Same concept as bubbles. Just holding your fist out in front of you is just boring and adds nothing to the gameplay. If the only intent was to block I would rather have a bubble/shield that burst and maybe that explodes, pushing enemies away. There are so many other ideas that adds utility where he doesn't just stand their with his arms up looking like a fool that is at the wrong place at the wrong time with "dumb ways to die" playing in the background.

[@bbombastiq]

I didn’t play a ton of sombra, but the most I liked her was her season 12 variant (the latest one prior to rework) and I think her only issue was perma stealth. However I think tying stealth to tp is always going to feel terrible. I’d suggest separating tp and stealth again, as well as getting rid of the opportunist passive with bonus hack damage. You could make stealth activate by holding crouch for a short moment, and then it lasts for maybe 10 seconds, then goes on cooldown. So this is basically just s12 Sombra without perma stealth, while having the fluidity of two abilities not being tied to each other. Removing perma stealth with no other compensation is a big is a nerf, so after that if she’s underperforming you could tweak her somehow, maybe increasing hack duration by half a second (idk what it currently is) or giving her virus or gun SLIGHTLY more damage. TLDR: I think having stealth and tp on one ability feels bad, I liked s12 sombra, maybe we can have a 10 second stealth activated by holding crouch.

[@AJxM8]

Hot take: people exaggerate queue times and they’re not really that bad.

[@hartyewh1]

Juno will stay strong as long as the skins sell well season by season.

[@Batguysofly]

I feel like sombra just needs hack fused into virus(nerf the damage accordingly), change translocator back to the ender pearl version detached from stealth, then use that free input for a timed stealth like old sombra on a duration. and maybe take off passive

[@sephirothmcallister7446]

Are people stupid for thinking in some cases there is a conspiracy behind? after all the shit uncovered in the last months? maybe someone needs a reality check and maybe is the guy that quit the game but still makes podcasts about it and not the playerbase, just sayin'

[@AndoughPanda]

The Sombra nerf to hack is even attempting hack...for any reason. It's so sad to see how much they nerfed her and they're doubling down and trying to make this work. I'm glad the got rid of permanent stealth but the whole "translocator and stealth are one ability" is sad. I don't think it'll ever work.

[@Hayv123]

boohoo cope

[@runaway74]

​@@Hayv123bronze can't handle sombs lmfao

[@nickve777]

⁠@@runaway74me when im ignorant and think a hero has to be called S-tier by your favourite streamer before they’re considered fundamentally broken

[@runaway74]

@@nickve777 when did I say she's not fundamentally broken? Guy 1 says he's glad permastealth is gone while offering valid criticism and all Guy 2 does present himself as one who only thinks in terms of "wahhh sombra evil" by twisting the knife in the fresh wound that is sombra's kit's confused state. You're swinging at ghosts here lmfao

[@X_MANGO__]

Me when I can't afk invis and spam hack the tank. Lololololololollolo

[@DNYLNY]

I switched from sombra to venture. His playstyle is very similar but has 2 cooldowns to get in and out vs 1 with sombra. And he counters widow nicely with the right positioning.

[@Mikuroko69]

12:46 is what i called out in a spilo video back in dva meta about how orisa was getting micro buffs like crazy and was going to become the next meta after dva. This guy in the comments was denying me in every way he could think of making no sense at all claiming orisa was nerfed by the "massive armor nerfs" funny how I called it, and shows that some players really just dont understand how a character is creeping up in power until its too late and they become the only tank played.

[@atkvin]

Based af answer from Bogur regarding Sombra. It was inane to ever turn her into an assassin when her entire kit was predicated on low damage, high mobility, high utility. That's why she had such busted mobility, she was basically a third support whose value was tied to denying enemies and setting up dives. No shit she turned into the most hated, cheesy spawncamping noobstomper with more damage, while keeping permainvis and the same cross-map access with TL. And instead of tackling that fundamental problem they just try to clunk it further and further in an attempt to balance this worse Tracer/Reaper. If ability lockout was too strong or obnoxious, 1 make it affect tanks way less than squishies, 2 come up with some combat utility that is more interesting, and 3 rework Hack's cast requirements.

[@Waywurd08]

NOBODY IS PLAYING TANK ANYMORE!!! WE NEED 6v6 back!!

[@ChangeIsPossible-420]

that's such an ironic post my dude. if no one is playing tank, how is 6v6 gonna solve it? longer queue times for literally everyone? f that. there are upsides to 6v6 that I enjoy - tank synergies and combo plays. but ensuring that there's one person to lead the team and make space makes it easier for supports, easier for dps to know who to target, etc. it's just better as a tank player. plus the queue times are fast.

[@Xiatter]

Not enough tank players is why they went to 5v5.

[@Waywurd08]

@ I have an idea! Let’s improve the tank experience, bring combos and synergy back, and get rid of counter swapping! That will bring people to tank just like how people were brought to support. The problem is tank never got this treatment and they don’t buy as many skins. There wasn’t profit incentive to go back UNTIL NOW since the game has become a skin seller

[@diegocorvalan5435]

​​@@Waywurd08tank is not popular in every game, most people want to go kill or just be in the back helping, and that Is fine, tank will always have the most pressure and everyone will see your mistakes, synergy combos even if cool will never be enogh to fight the core principal of the roles

[@Waywurd08]

@ no this isn’t the case for Overwatch, tanks in Overwatch are the best tanks ever made.

[@jeraiceball]

Idk why but Kraan looks so sweet

[@ahmedwerya3987]

Bogur added nothing here other than emoting like an npc...

[@christopherripley5081]

I’ve also been sayin tanks with smaller hitboxes and more range are the move…. See the tanks like interacting with things at range

[@galelululu]

Any interest in getting some of the more business-minded creators to do a book club re: Jason Schreier’s new book on the collapse of Blizzard? When I say business minded I’m thinking about Samito, Flats, people like that who had a lot to say about the Microsoft acquisition. It would take more work and be a very different direction to the usual state of affairs but I believe there’s a lot of information in there that the average Overwatch player might like to know but be too smoothbrained to read for themselves

[@CarveronGamer]

As an Orisa main, let me welcome you all into Mauga meta again. Hope you like it. It's time to go back to be a ball main. Hopefully, my team likes not having a tank in front of them.

[@Anton_Jermakoŭ]

we literally would be happier without your fucking main, hope you enjoy being hated by the whole community

[@SqiddoGD]

Mauga is absolute dogwater right now, it takes only 1 single counter to completely nullify all his value or make his supports have to pump insane heals into him. In fact, he’s one of the only characters right now that every single tank can outplay, he’s basically just a Reinhardt with no shield and guns instead of a hammer.

[@ohm_ow1726]

Good luck with that, I had a game as ball where I got at least 1-2 picks on squishies every teamfight while my teams getting farmed by mauga and widow (in the short timeframe where I was not on her ass), I should've swapped of ball to help with the tank trade but it didn't matter. both enemy dps had 14+deaths and their supports went hyper mobile/brig, so mauga just outsustained my whole team on a defense. I hate counterswapping.

[@rha_dha]

cloudy on the pod when?

[@auline8531]

He'd be busy talking about Rein getting a rocket launcher or guns LMAO I love Cloudy

[@acrobatmapping]

they didn't mention that Juno was very weak to sombra bc she had so self healing orb like moira. could spawn camp her in some maps. now that sombra is nerfed, it's kind of a JUNO buff

[@Oliver.Pfahl.]

Enjoying the discussion as always just very confused how everyone completely forgot that most games in most ranks pre role queue were played with mostly dps, no matter that role was weak. In the Real game people don't want to play tank, always haven't