The Last of Us 2 Isn't That Bad - You Guys Are Just Dumb

[@komandski3053]

I would call Arthur Morgan a beloved character for the people that played the game, doesn’t mean he is a good person

[@cryinmonkey2003]

Yea, when i defend joel's death as a plot point in this game i usually use red dead redemption 1 & 2. The main character in BOTH those games die, and in the first game the main character gets shot 50 fucking times. But for some reason no one complains about it , yet for last of us 2 it's the only thing people seem to care about. Personally I think their deaths were warranted, and same for joel.

[@montaholic3120]

@@cryinmonkey2003 Arthur and John died redeeming themselves, that's where the "Redemption" part of the title comes into play. While Arthur was dying of an incurable disease, he decided to save as many lives as he could, and tried his damnedest to save John and his family. John died in a similar manner, but his redemption came in not running away. All he ever did was run, hell he ditched his son and his gang for a year for no apparent reason. But in Red Dead Redemption, even though he was forced to do it, he killed his former allies, now enemies, in doing so he redeemed himself. Joel definitely did NOT redeem himself, hell he said he'd save Ellie and kill the doctors and soldiers A SECOND TIME

[@cryinmonkey2003]

Montaholic Yea that’s why the game is not called Joel dead redemption, I’m just arguing that a main character dying in a video game shouldn’t cause such an outrage. Joel fucked up BIG TIME, dude literally threw the only chance for a cure out the window because he was selfish and didn’t want to lose another “daughter” like he did with Sarah. I think he had death coming. Shit from the moment I saw the first trailer for this game I knew one of them was gonna die because of what Joel did.

[@psychophate]

@@cryinmonkey2003 Joel's death is justified in that he's done plenty of things in his past that can come back to bite him. However, it is not justified in that it was done by the daughter of a no name NPC who was retconned into being an all around great guy (who would still kill a girl without letting her know of the procedure and avoids the question of "what if it was your daughter?"). She brutally tortures Joel without hesitation or consideration about the fact that he saved her moments ago. Comparing his death to John's and Arthur's is a terrible idea because they went out with dignity. The government never gave an indication about upholding their deal with John and he gets murdered, but not before he gets a final moment with his family. It helps that his son actually avenges his father, unlike Ellie, so we at least get John's final heroic act and the catharsis of vengeance for his death. Arthur's death was inevitable, and he accepts it. He learns his lesson and reconciles with the life he's lived. He dies on his own terms, quietly. Most people knew, going in, that Joel would probably die but not in the first 2 hours by a person he just saved and a group of armed strangers he allowed himself to be surrounded by. His actions leading up to his death were out of character, John's and Arthur's weren't.

[@evankauffman2139]

Was Arthur a good person? That's one of the reasons I love RDR2, is because even more than a year after playing through it, I can still sit back with myself and debate that just in my head.

[@ThanosManetas]

*opens up the comment section* "This is where the fun begins"

[@gdtacos7082]

Oh yeah, I literally just clicked on it for the ree mode comments

[@jambob7259]

@@gdtacos7082 I know its amazing

[@obiwanshinobi87]

Hello there

[@kaitouchiha8063]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/nIasgZece8hmsNk

[@CallumDT]

Indeed 😂

[@lemonbiscuit5031]

There is a difference between a good person and a good character.

[@Lucasio1209]

Preach the good word. I think the video is great when it comes to editing and overall quality. I completely disagree with him on the quality of the game though. It’s a 3.5 for me.

[@assassinbro2988]

@@ponquin why you talking about people pooping

[@Action-Hero]

I’m sure that’s what he meant. He just worded it poorly.

[@charliedontsurf7468]

Yeah but the point still stands. Just because people like the character doesn't mean he deserves a heroic death, in alla and all fairness as much as I also like the character Joel got what he deserved and the circumstances of his death fit the themes of both stories, Joel would've done the exact same thing if he was after revenge so it doesn't make sense why his deeds should be treated any differently. People cry all day about fan service but then claim that a character who's done truly evil things should get a better ending just because they like them.

[@jacobmeglich6699]

@Charlie Don't Surf but those people also say the games theme is forgiveness so when Joel dies right after saving Abby from being eaten alive it’s called bad writing since we all know the games theme wasn’t revenge 😂

[@christopherrajecki3377]

Wow, this video has no dislikes. I'm sure that means that everyone agrees with Marcus' points.

[@helenline1790]

This video is utter shite. Some of the worst arguments I've ever heard

[@elder-woodsilverstein7716]

Too bad the only criticism we can see is the comment section.

[@SaintsFan09-z3s]

@@helenline1790 the dudes pretentious as fuck and I don't even know if he likes or hates the game yet.

[@Silverlining-gm8fd]

"Oh let's be nice in a post Apocalypse environment", no wonder TWD is so damn good telling the harsh reality!

[@challengerchris5204]

@@SaintsFan09-z3s He said at the end that its a mixed bag. I also dont get the whole pretentious thing, hes just giving his opinion

[@mrdoctor6337]

"Joel is not a beloved character". Are you trying to start a war?

[@wint3rr048]

Bruceiah James joel was the most love character

[@joeyfortini7217]

i think he means that in the context of the world of the Last of Us, Joel is hated because he took away humanity’s chance for cure, not that people don’t like Joel as a character

[@TayKJ]

Bruceiah James ah yes, *another* person who doesn’t have a dictionary

[@veritty6828]

Bruceiah James He is so beyond wrong that it’s insane. He clearly doesn’t give a damn about Joel and made many invalid points in this video

[@mrdoctor6337]

Bruceiah James, Yes another person who is clearly dumb and clearly doesnt understand the reason why the first game was so good. Joel and Ellie. Take away Joel, explain how the story and plot in the first game is not good without Joel. Joel is one of the many reasons why people love the Last of us.

[@jerQCote]

Markus: "Winnie the Poo is a beloved character." China: ".............."

[@shinkaiatsuya950]

Sophisticated Winnie the Pooh: I think you mean People's Republic of China.

[@PitZagufull]

THERE IS NOT A CHANCE THAT I'M INTERESTED IN THIS BEAR

[@hallo4651]

a shit

[@thelorddoctor1519]

Tbf people in china do love their leader

[@personeater2664]

The Lord Doctor Its odd cause Xi doesn’t actually do much, most of its the people he appoints who make decisions .

[@soruvfrancis6210]

This comment section’s gonna be a war zone

[@DukezKing]

no pun intended too

[@logicaloverdrive8197]

Exactly. You here with popcorn too?

[@SuperMurray2009]

Let's keep it civil fellas

[@samjackson9560]

Battle Rifle boo. Don’t be civil we came to be entertained.

[@RDV333]

The only thing that this game has going for it are the memes and the outrage, it's more entertaining than the game.

[@CommentPoster10]

I like how out of everything in this 20-minute video, the only thing people latched on to was "Joel isn't a beloved character"

[@crazyinsane500]

The rest of the video are points lifted from the Last of Us subreddit. "Joel isn't a beloved character" may be the only original thing he said in this.

[@w00ds98]

It really shows how dumb internet arguments are. Like the dude used a wrong word, but all the stuff he says afterwards, depicts pretty clearly what word he *meant* to say. He meant to say „morally good“ or „hero“ and its so fucking obvious. So everybody just realizes it was a small writing mistake and moves on from such an inconsequential little error right? Nope the entire fucking comment section is only about that one incredibly irrelevant thing.

[@notdanwood]

@@crazyinsane500 No thought is original. Dismissing the video because other people also thought the same is not very logical.

[@GloomyNooby]

I mean titling ur opinion video calling other people dumb for having a different opinion isn’t a strong or smart argument so I’d imagine this guy’s opinion is actually quite false

[@randomthinzz1518]

@@GloomyNooby the only reason he called them dumb is because of how closed minded the game is, if ur gonna have an opinion about something than make sure you know everything that ur talking about

[@michaelcaserta9897]

"Joel isn't a beloved character. He's an antihero." Some of the best and most appreciated characters in all of media are antiheroes. What even makes an antihero exempt from being beloved in the first place?

[@crazydude610]

While beloved does literally mean dearly loved, I think Marcus was meaning that people shouldn't be that upset about Joel's death. He was very well written in the first game, as a selfish, mass murdering, torturing psycho, with clearly visible goals and people enjoy his character because of such. His example of Winnie the Pooh showed beloved as 'incapable of doing wrong' meant that Joel should not be beloved. Joel has plenty of people who hate him, and I know people who actively can't get more than half way through the game because they see where it's going, and can't support his decision.

[@phillmoore1561]

@@crazydude610 Then he needs to use a different word than "beloved" if he meant it in a different way than its definition.... not hard to understand.

[@ThisisKyle]

@@crazydude610 He's not mass murdering in the first game he's trying to survive from other people trying to kill him and Ellie

[@whatNtarnation90]

@@michaelcaserta9897 EXACTLY

[@animationdramanation5730]

@@mumkeymaan4600 Wow good job you insult somebody just because you don't agree with their opinion and you're so smart.

[@rattlynanimations7694]

Cosmonaut: "Joel isn't a beloved character" Comment section: *It's treason, then*

[@anakinskywalker3292]

I like how he shitted on the Star Wars prequels and now we use memes from the movies when we disagree with him fiercely

[@chongwillson972]

@@anakinskywalker3292 its because we did not know what we had and what we were getting after it ...

[@ronaldragupathi952]

I love Joel but u wouldn't say he is a beloved character in that world i mean the dude doomed the world by getting rid of any hopes of a cure.

[@toch0418]

@@ronaldragupathi952 yeah but in OUR universe he is one

[@SkittlesInYourHand]

@@toch0418 His point was that Joel isn't a huge beloved character in overall pop culture. He's a character a lot of people loved from a game 7 years ago and that's about it. If the new spiderman game opened with Spiderman being brutally murdered and Miles avenging him a lot more people would be outraged than for Joel because Spiderman is a beloved character by millions.

[@chubchubpotatoes4983]

Joel isn’t a beloved hero But he’s for sure a beloved character

[@escanoresa3285]

ahahahahaha

[@getoffmyacc9416]

yeah but thats to us. not to the story lol

[@solomonbristow7201]

I think your kinda psychotic

[@leonardo-mz4gt]

@@solomonbristow7201 how is he psychotic?

[@solomonbristow7201]

Joel ain’t the good guy, just the guy you play as

[@EllieMiller510]

I agree with a lot of the stuff in this video, except for the “beloved character” argument. Just because Joel is a person who does fucked up things doesn’t mean he isn’t a loved character. Him doing bad things makes him more realistic and interesting to the player. Respect your opinion tho

[@FreeBandz658]

I agree tbf I think if he changed it to Joel had it coming because he wasn’t a hero then people might’ve accepted it.

[@Mdmbchdr]

he's saying he doesn't deserve to be a beloved character not that he isn't

[@quandaledingle7812]

phournem nah I think he just didn't really understand what a beloved character is

[@handtomouth4690]

@@Mdmbchdr love it when your fanbase has to try to reword your bad phrasing XD

[@ayrtonpietrobelli6972]

Cosmonaut commonly despises any hero or protagonist doing anything that could be seen as ‘bad’, makes you think he demands all protagonists to be like superman, inherently good, when that’s not possible because unless you take his story and copy it word for word, all characters will have different challenges and flaws, but importantly, wont be totally good, at least most characters

[@thehaloscrolls391]

“Joel isn’t a good person, why are people mad that he’s dead” *Arthur Morgan has entered the chat*

[@joeytribianni9280]

Arthur was a better dude given the time period

[@smashedmelon3156]

Joker has enter the chat

[@thatgentalmen]

But you do get to make choices throughout the game that will make a good person. Or not

[@Stone-TheThird]

The problem I see is that they're bad people but the thing is the world they live in made them bad. Joel has lost a daughter and lives in a post apocalyptic world and has to do what he has to to survive. Arthur also has to, he's constantly breaking the law to survive and has police on his back end 24/7. They're not beloved characters In my opinion but the reason they aren't is justified. Their world is just awful in their vision and that what made them bad people

[@mr.preston1632]

Because he was a likable character

[@brandonw6139]

You don't need to be a morally good character to be a beloved character. Look at all the anti heroes throughout fiction

[@d_bstudios2038]

That doesn’t mean he can’t be killed

[@JesusChrist-bq6lu]

D_B studios it’s HOW he was killed, most of us knew Joel would die in this game but the way they handled it was just plain disrespectful to his character while forcing us to play as his killer expecting us to feel sorry for her terrible backstory that was crafted out of thin air.

[@jjonahjameson8934]

Joel is not invincible he is a regular fucking old man

[@animationdramanation5730]

No, no, no, you are like the 16th person I've seen this fly right over their head. He meant in the universe like how Winnie the Pooh in his Universe he is beloved but in Joel's Universe he is not.

[@brandonw6139]

@@animationdramanation5730 no he definitely meant to the fans, no one in this universe is beloved by all.

[@dirtydan7304]

A beloved character does not have to be a good person, just a character that's beloved...by fans. Doesn't matter if Joel killed tens of hundreds of people, or that he's hated by other characters in the game. As long as he is loved by fans, he is a beloved character.

[@user2004k]

just like joker is a beloved character

[@mackaleprado5039]

Khizar khan well said

[@alex_roivas333]

i don't think he meant people don't like him but that he _shouldn't_ be liked like that? also, the second part "you can't kill a beloved character" was part of the reason he brought that up. that if you kill a fan favorite, even if it was done well, people aren't gonna like it.

[@ManiLink]

True

[@filippauljohnson6924]

In real life; everyone would probably hate him.

[@ManuelMorales-11]

The insane comparison of Joel to Winnie the Pooh is a timeless classic ☠️☠️☠️

[@chrisg459]

"Joel is not a beloved character, Joel is a violent anti hero." Joel is a violent anti hero, but he is also a beloved character both those things are true

[@duartevader2101]

Exactly.

[@surferOS101]

Dude was an asshole from the very beginning. He straight up tells ellie that he was just like all the bandits they've been killing throughout the game. His own brother hates him and doesn't trust him when they reunte. And then in the end he lies to ellie, cause he doesn't respect her wishes and only sees her as a daughter replacement. I always hated the character when I played the game. I don't know how anyone could like this asshole character

[@skeletor8212]

Like the Punisher

[@kevinarriaza1951]

@@surferOS101 holy shit, okay you just said some really stupid stuff. First of all, no joel does not start the game as an asshole. He starts with a loving relationship with his daughter. Secondly, he tells ellie he did similar things to the bandits, but not out of pleasure but out of survival which was also to keep tommy alive which we know becuz he literally says this to tommy. Also tommy does not hate him at all and does in fact still trust joel, their relationship is just strained becuz of the things they had to do to survive. Lastly you are somewhat correct in that joel is being selfish when it comes to ellie, but again its not like hes doing that becuz hes a psycho, he didnt even want to “replace his daughter” for like half the game, thats where like 90% of the tension between the two comes from, i can’t believe i even have to type that becuz its like almost the whole point of the game. Just because you fail to understand extremely basic elements of the game does not mean joel is an asshole, please think more critically.

[@surferOS101]

@@kevinarriaza1951 all I hear is Joel fanboy who can’t think critically and gets angry very easily You pull this “survival” answer when it’s obvious that’s just an excuse And the end of the day he still acted like those bandits and he still lied to Ellie in the end proving he never really cared about her as a person but more as a daughter replacement. He’s an asshole who goes out of his way to be unnecessarily brutal to everyone. I never said he started this game as an asshole, don’t know where you got that from I understand you love the character, but it’s obvious your blinded by your fanboyism He was an asshole through and through, and he got what he deserved in the second game. Please think more critically

[@Guyinatrenchcoatandhat]

Me: Looks at like to dislike ratio *Immediately scrolls down to the comments*

[@chandyman223]

When there's more likes then dislikes🤡🤡

[@doctorknow]

The comments are carrying this video.

[@smittywerbenjagermanjensen4737]

If you think this ratio is bad someone should tell you about KZbin rewind

[@alexanderbaldwin1298]

It's earned tbh.

[@supergkop5678]

I scrolled down here to see the response to the title. Because goddamm that title is going to start a flame war. I don't even care about this game I just wanna see the flame war.

[@ultimateknight4667]

This comment section is going to be interesting.

[@JimJamTheAdmin]

I'm here for it.

[@seanbirch]

Not really. Those people are dumb.

[@sesereddead465]

Sean Birch a bit mean but ok

[@SuperMurray2009]

Honestly I loved the game overall. I hated the ending and some of the story beats. But also the other things people hate about this game I honestly don't hate about this game. I loved the characters (yes Abby too. She was actually my favorite), I loved the gameplay, and I loved the story.for the first two acts. Hate comments come at me.

[@Agent1245_]

Very interesting indeed

[@kennethfluker3777]

This is honestly just a bad review with a painfully smug tone. If you can’t understand how other players feel towards a game, that doesn’t mean their feelings are wrongs. Plus Ellie forgiving Abby doesn’t work thematically because the game decides to force you to kill dozens of people to get to her and that negates the impact of what the writers are going for.

[@crazyinsane500]

To be fair, Cosmo has a bad habit of just plagiarizing entire paragraphs from subreddits. The fucker's gonna get his comeuppance one day, exposed as a Filip Miucin-esque plagiarist, and it'll be glorious. And nobody'd have cottoned on if he didn't have such a shit take for this.

[@nintendoggaming1881]

you need to shut up and let cosmonaut speak facts

[@b_nnah]

Cope@@crazyinsane500

[@SilasWarren-s3v]

I completely agree. Even the title is bad.

[@Luis-by7li]

Someone didnt pay attention to the video. I recommend playing the game or maybe play the game a second time.

[@PlasmidJunkie]

"I didn't like the first game all that much" "10/10 story with 6/10 gameplay" So, you liked it?

[@normalhuman1825]

Right? I’m a fan but I would only give it Story 8/10 (6 if not for Joel and Ellie Gameplay 5/10

[@Quester91]

Yeah, this guy doesn't make much sense

[@therealdonaldtrump4528]

Wtf he literally said he didn't

[@PlasmidJunkie]

@@therealdonaldtrump4528 my point was that the combined score was a 16 out of 20, which is like a C+. That is a good score.

[@aibartalgatuly3011]

Geralt of Trivia wtf are u even talking about?

[@Mellonotes]

Can we all agree that what Ellie said in the 1st game "Everyone I've ever cared about has either died or left me, everyone except for you" that hit HARD after this game

[@BlueEyedRaven_]

Also her biggest fear is ending up alone.. and she ended up alone.

[@SuperMurray2009]

I'm a big fan of Abby. So when she eventually did end up losing people, that hurt me even more.

[@crawlingboy]

@@SuperMurray2009 what is wrong with you

[@keinchi]

It was what I was thinking about the entire game.

[@killebee6183]

I shut my brain off after she let abby live so i dont remember

[@MrHURRICANE43]

“Joel isn’t a beloved character” Yeah, well that’s just like your opinion man

[@clack185]

bill burr?

[@ashkhri]

Like lmaoooo who gon tell him that literally everyone loves him

[@loukes7758]

Skaterbyname 44 obviously a big Lebowski reference

[@jreedzz3737]

@@clack185 "Fair enough!"

[@zman2748]

That isn't even an opinion that's just factually wrong

[@seventyfive2310]

Ok if Marcus wants to say that Joel isn’t a beloved character because he is a bad person, doesn’t that mean that Darth Vader and The Joker aren’t beloved characters either?

[@someone0]

@pigstuck so if I said "spectacular spider man isn't a good show cause it's overrated" would you be happy about that

[@ComicsLamar]

Disingenuous. He’s just saying Joel is a pos and people are acting like he didn’t deserve to die.

[@chongliyang4044]

but would you be unhappy if those two died? and also no it wouldn't be fair to put those two together with joel since he is the protagonist and is more sympathizable, much like a more morally good walter white (although if you think about it he doomed the world the one time he did a bad thing but since it's just a singular action that was based on good intentions that's okay apparently in our dumb human minds)

[@chongliyang4044]

@Donny’s NWO yeah, they kill for their own survival, but there are still morals, just that they are not respected. but joel didn't kill for his own survival rather he killed out of selfishness and compassion, and as a result he prevented the vaccine from coming out, and killed a whole lot of people that was trying to do good

[@wolfbrigade1425]

@@chongliyang4044 if extracting the brain from a young girl without her permission makes you a good person, you need to seek a psychiatrist. Also, there is absolutely 0% guarantee that they would actually be able to create a vaccine. We have seen in the real world how long it takes to make vaccines. And I’m our world they had all the attempts they needed. I’m the last of us they have on try, one single attempt and if that doesen’t work, Ellie died for nothing, there is no vaccine and everything was pointless. I wouldn’t spend time in Vegas with those odds.

[@pines3326]

"Joel isn't a beloved character, he's an anti-hero" I mean deadpool is a pretty shitty person but a lot of people love him

[@erenjeager1070]

Ok so one of the reasons people love him is because he is hella funny

[@swayampattnaik4858]

And tommy Shelby too and a lot of so called "protagonists" of gangster films that what I love about it

[@dustinmoore3779]

Punisher too , and dexter ..anti hero's

[@1Seanmb]

@@dustinmoore3779 Mate I like the Punisher but in stories where he dies I'm not upset for him. And frankly it's hilarious that your mind would go there since the entire point of the Punisher is that revenge and violence are a never ending cycle, biggest difference is that Frank never chooses to end it.

[@crazy_noisy_bizzare_t0wn396]

@@1Seanmb Yet that is his character and that is his choice, you can relate and understand the decisions he made in the bubble of his own fictional universe and reality. So of course you're upset when they die, you had 7 years to accept Joel's decision and decide "Of all the shitty things he did this ain't too bad"

[@FutureJoker]

The Joker is 100% a beloved character 'Beloved' doesn't equal objectively good

[@RealMikeWazowski]

FutureJoker2012 exactly! Just like John Marston, Arthur Morgan, and the three GTA 5 antagonists, you don’t have to be “good” to be a beloved character.

[@wildcrochunter6724]

i mean, the joker is an objectively good villain. but i get what you mean.

[@sebastiangarcia6103]

@@wildcrochunter6724 and joel its objectively a good written character

[@wildcrochunter6724]

Sebastardo specify who tho

[@its1899]

@@RealMikeWazowski is john marston a bad person though?

[@BetterNateThanN3ver]

I don’t even really think The Last of Us needed a sequel.

[@jambob7259]

Ye me to but it made MONEY so...

[@arutzuki2491]

Yeah, I'm not gonna buy it.

[@jsn1547]

I did. I wanted to know what the consequences of Joel's actions were.

[@franciscocabanasgac68]

So you don't need to play it either

[@David-ki2xt]

@@arutzuki2491 Jesus stop saying that like you are about to make nd go bankrupt. It's cringe and lame, especially after seeing that it's selling like crazy

[@slicerh248]

Man I feel bad for Marcus. He generally made a good point about Joel’s character but honestly worded it terribly. Joel is a character beloved by those close to him and fans of the series but in the world of TLOU Joel is, for the most part, a bad dude with a ton of enemies.

[@crazyinsane500]

One of the reasons they didn't go with the "Tess Hunts Joel" plot for TLOU1 was explicitly because it undermined the world if people could go on revenge quests. This is why nobody does it, because you could turn a wrong corner and end up with a face full of spores, a stray bullet, a piece of rebar, or one of the series-defining zombies. Nobody has to worry about that anymore unless the plot contrives it. His point is bad, because it's said without a second thought that this game has definitively changed for the worse, and raises more problems as a result of the changes. Admittedly, though, it's not *his* point, since he just stole it from the Last of Us subreddit to get this video out on time.

[@treesap9789]

@@crazyinsane500 Yeah, but why would you care about that if the people you are hunting took the one person you cared so deeply for before you could say goodbye to them?

[@crazyinsane500]

@@treesap9789 You mean like Joel from the first game who's shown not five minutes after Sarah's death living under FEDRA rule, the same guys who had her killed? IE: Showing he prioritized survival over revenge. The *first* game in the first few minutes shows how people have new priorities beyond melodrama.

[@justinianthe1st790]

​@@crazyinsane500 No more like when Joel tried to kill Henry out of spite for being left for dead despite being saved by him. One could say Joel wanted revenge...but nah let's ignore the angy papa with daughter issues was angy at times lol

[@crazyinsane500]

@@justinianthe1st790 Might want to play the first game before you try to act like you have a retort. Joel didn't go out of his way to hunt Henry down, it was just convenient.

[@poweroffriendship2.0]

_"I struggled for a long time with survivin', and no matter what, you keep finding something to fight for."_ *~ Joel (RIP 2013 - 2020)*

[@JT044-iz1cv]

RIP Joel,I wish it didnt have to end this way.

[@kaohs2133]

Jack Taylor 044 Nah, he is still alive, don’t know why people are talking about a second game, that never existed.

[@Cheexy_]

Kaohs they stupid, the last of us been ended. who’s abby?

[@SuperMurray2009]

I love Abby's character. Come at me.

[@VannaValentine]

My man was only 7 years old, you hate to see it.

[@blueodin0946]

I think Marcus has a different idea of “beloved”

[@austinjohnsen4430]

Maybe what he means is that Joel isn’t beloved in the game’s universe.

[@lithofayne4537]

@@austinjohnsen4430 i feel like this is what a lot of people are missing lol

[@austinjohnsen4430]

Naomi Shabazz He worded that very poorly though. He seems to be doing quite a bit of that lately.

[@SkaterBlades]

Hes confused beloved with loving. Joel is beloved by the fans

[@austinjohnsen4430]

SkaterBlades He thinks that the fans think Joel is a loving person like Winne The Pooh?

[@TayKJ]

Cosmonaut: “Joel is a violent anti hero, how can he possibly be a beloved character to people?” Me: *Thinks of Wolverine,Deadpool, Punisher, Ghost Rider, Vegeta, Alucard, and Light Yagmi* Yup, violent anti-heroes are definitely not beloved characters My second disagreement is majority of people are mad at *HOW* Joel died, not that he died(most people know this due to spoilers). Joel, the badass who NEVER trusted any stranger from the start and would rather stay clear from them(Ex: The family in the prologue and Henry & Sam from TLOU). This same character...walked into a room...full of armed strangers...stated his name (after the shit he has done)...and proceeded to say the most out of character dialogue I’ve ever heard, before being shot and eventually killed by the person he went out of his way to SAVE. You can’t tell me that isn’t bad writing, nor disrespectful to the character and fanbase that loved that character. And that’s only the tip of the iceberg of reasons(I will NEVER comprehend how Tommy didn’t see Abby taking aim) My third disagreement is that Neil called this a revenge story. Ellie killed many, MANY people to get said revenge, gave up friends and family, only to decide to not kill her. She essentially sacrificed everything for absolutely nothing. Nobody in their mind, in her shoes, would sacrifice everything only to decide to not do it(while killing her) and if you would, you’re kinda stupid for even starting the journey and killing all those people to begin with. In my eyes, Ellie basically wasted her time when she should have sat down, thought it through, and then maybe she wouldn’t be so miserable as she is now. Edit: Also you can’t really call it breaking the cycle, because she killed people to get to Abby, who is to say their family/friends won’t want revenge? She probably started multiple new cycles Overall though, I agree with majority of what you said and I really hope people listen to the points you make and not just read the title, dislike, and move on

[@poutine_machine]

Tay Jackson it’s called breaking the cycle. It’s kind of the main theme.

[@Dani-kq6qq]

Light Yagami is a villain.

[@LuckiSir]

Agreed, Cosmo makes good points and it triggers me how people just watch 2 minutes and quit.

[@slappyshade]

Choosing not to kill Abby is not a waste of her effort or her sacrifice. She did terrible things and lost everything in the pursuit of revenge just like Abby, only she realized that she could end the cycle. The point about Joel is a good one, only the story implies that because of the horde, Joel really has no choice but to go back with Abby and hope that they are friends. This is why Tommy offers to restock their supplies and they offer up their names so freely, because they know its either make friends, or die to infected.

[@TayKJ]

Anakin Cary I agree with the Abby part kinda, just wish she didn’t go THAT far with her journey and make such an unrealistic decision while fighting her. If she thought about her talk with Joel while killing one of Abby’s friends, then I would 100% agree with her decision Somewhat disagree with the Joel part. Say you’re the man who just stopped humanity from gaining the cure and murdered countless amount of people, you already don’t trust strangers before the apocalypse, now you’re in a room full of armed people that you have no idea what the relation these people have to what you’ve done. Joel is an extremely cautious individual, I just can’t see him of all characters making the decision in telling his real name. You can be friendly without giving up your identity, you see it a lot in apocalypse like games with characters lying about their name for safety

[@cozyvibes6564]

I wouldn’t say Abby’s story is about going to get medicine for the little girl, it’s about redemption and trying to do right by saving the kids. She doesn’t feel redeemed by revenge but when she finally saves Lev she feels whole again.

[@songbird5842]

little boy

[@cozyvibes6564]

@@songbird5842 oh no i was referring to yara, my bad if i wasn’t clear :)

[@bubble.mp4]

Yeah it’s a backdrop for the story of Abby getting closer to Lev. Kinda like how getting Ellie to the Fireflies is a backdrop of Joel getting closer to Ellie

[@cozyvibes6564]

@@bubble.mp4 yes i noticed this on my second play through when abby was carrying lev down to the boats like joel carried ellie through the hospital

[@Drunkpunch33]

Lol they couldn’t come up with better writing so they made up the doctor having a kid then trying to copy paste a Joel an Ellie story onto other characters let’s see how many more Joel and Ellie’s we get in part 3 if Neil can come up with another sht story

[@wrisst1712]

“Joel saves Ellie because he does not want to lose another daughter” yeah and that character flaw is why people have him as a beloved character Lemme clarify that I’m not upset that Joel even dies in the game but about how this story as a whole was delivered

[@Carabas72]

Or why people hate his guts. He could at least have had the decency to be honest about it.

[@barackobama6858]

Mitchell W oh yeah dooming humanity what a great person

[@kikiinaz5785]

Trojan I mean humanity would have been doomed either way

[@raidonshin]

@@barackobama6858 Beloved Character doesn't mean great person, it means a character people loved.

[@spencermadison]

@@barackobama6858 Let's be real here, the Fireflies wasn't going to make a vaccine anyways.

[@marxizim]

“Opening drawers and unlocking safes is not gameplay” *gasps in Fallout*

[@buggsmalone8178]

Shocked in we happy few

[@genericname2593]

Metro shits itself

[@r1l426]

Dies in Shenmue

[@gradefprofessional]

Gasps in any game that involves looting

[@KizaruB]

Self-immolates in Half-Life Alyx

[@paulbeen459]

My guess is people would have liked the ending had they been attached to Abby as much as they were to Ellie

[@helenwhs]

Unless you put Joel and Ellie's development on stasis for most of the game and focus much more on Abby, that isn't gonna happen.

[@SuperMurray2009]

I was attached to Abby though. She's my favorite character now.

[@paulbeen459]

@@helenwhs It could. If they had managed to make you like Abby and understand why she did that, perhaps you'd have found Ellie's vengeance blind and thus unnecessary.

[@Punk-Mask]

If you empathize with Abby like I did the game is pretty amazing

[@killebee6183]

Nothing would have made anyone happy to play as him they tried tho

[@KILROY94]

i think the story isn‘t about revenge nor is it about forgiveness. in my opinion it just raises the question of how far we are „allowed“ to go for a good cause. there are tons of stories about the revenge trope and in these stories the actions of the character are alwqys portrayed as a good thing. maybe some grey areas here and there but generally the character taking revenge is in the right and is doing the right thing. but this game reverses our perspective so we can ask ourselves: „is it okay to do something horrible out of a good intention?“ or better put „is it okay to do horrible things out of love to another person?“

[@Reject101Personal]

the game is 100% about revenge. Revenge is never a good thing. Revenge is never the right thing.

[@smokeygoblin2467]

What's the good intention in revenge bruh 🗿

[@calvingnarloaf]

the story is a woke dumpster fire of killing off the 'male lead.' there is nothing profound about it. ask neil about the meetings about "diversity". leftism is a mind virus and it infected what could have been an amazing sequel. what an absolute shitshow

[@joku90]

Revenge is never a "good intention". I think the story is about dehumanizing others, cycle of violence (revenge) and finally forgiveness. Dehumanizing aspect is hammered home by mirroring the mindset of the "hero" (Ellie) to the mindset of the "bad guys" (Abby and her crew) and showing that both are doing basically the same thing. Why should we then consider other one as a hero and other one as a villain?

[@PeachesandCream225]

@@Reject101Personal what a stupid black and white comment

[@Logo1770]

I don’t think that people are mad that Joel dies, i think people are mad about how he died Also I think people dislike the ending because the person who stops their revenge is left with nothing and the person who does get revenge hasn’t really lost anything, or at least not as much as Ellie

[@kennethha416]

true

[@kierangh5422]

Because he got killed by a golf club? I dont get it

[@jsn1547]

Yea because they wanted him to die in a blaze of generic glory.

[@jcnot9712]

Na, I’m sure there are plenty of people mad that he died. Specially mad at who it was that killed him.

[@rohegarcia2802]

He also went into why it makes sense how he dies. Joel doomed all of humanity and killed a shit ton of good people. So it makes sense for him to die just how he killed others. Unceremoniously.

[@Edgom]

Joel is the perfect example that the protagonist of a story doesn’t necessarily have to a good guy.

[@mill4318]

@@JohnGodfrey141 Doesn't mean you can't make a story with him not dying.

[@krauser18x]

Like Walter white and he really is a loved character Like joel

[@krauser18x]

@@JohnGodfrey141 but no the main character. I mean even the flashbacks were put because naugthy dog devs felt like cowards after realising Joel was killed at the beginning

[@esc3954]

arthur morgan to but ya u right

[@esc3954]

@@JohnGodfrey141 also means that he was a character and thre mad that he was killed off for a stupid reason that made no sense and that the main character a great person got killed for no reason and it didnt have any impact to the story exept for ruining a character that was already established

[@Limitless-g9g]

I mean, I do agree that their are some people who didn’t really “get” what this game was about, but saying that Joel is not a beloved character because he’s not nice is kinda dumb. Not gonna lie.

[@Firehazerd5444]

After watching I think he did take it like; "Joel was considered a good character". I think you can like a bad character and acknowledge their flaws. But that should come with the consequences of that character's actions.

[@MrJimjah]

Even if he's a beloved character why does it even matter if he dies

[@pulsebear]

@@Firehazerd5444 i mean mcu thanos is like that

[@Limitless-g9g]

mrjimjah I’m not mad that he died, I actually expected it to happen, I just feel the way he died and when he died was kinda stupid

[@CornerRoom_Thoughts]

@@voids98 Seems like you are. Cosmo openly doesn't care if people agree with him or not. He just gives his opinion.

[@hghyfyfiugou4448]

Ah the classic "You guys just don't get it" statement. Then never being able to explain how we don't get it. I mean "Joel isn't a beloved character", seriously??

[@AvaaSlays_Swiftie]

Been hearing it for 3 years. Sales show no one cared for this game.

[@DarthOpinion]

@@AvaaSlays_Swiftiethis is the stupidest ive ever read about this game

[@Jegbmf]

He literally spends the whole half of the 20 minute video explaining what “you don’t get”

[@LaserThemTheGirl]

I think you messed up a lot with your wording of the phrase "Joel isn't a beloved character". Like I get what you mean but you chose the wrong words.

[@theultimatechampion154]

What did he mean then?

[@BowlOfApples]

@@theultimatechampion154 Basically that Joel isn't a good person. Throughout the first game and even off-screen we're told he does really fucked up shit to people who may or may not deserve it, especially at the Hospital

[@fiftyfive1s410]

Yeah

[@fiftyfive1s410]

@@theultimatechampion154 Joel isnt beloved to majority of the people in the world of TLOU

[@jonathanjohnomerez6079]

People just saying "joel is not a beloved character" just to justify this fcking trash TLOU2 dude. Like wtf?? Joel and ellie in a apocalyptic setting makes TLOU goat.

[@acdgamer7292]

"I'm one of the few people who likes when stealth is done well in games." Don't most people?

[@ismaelgarcia3256]

No, just everyone

[@HamJams]

You would surprised with how upset people get when they have to engage in a stealth system that isn't kinda janky. I think that shows in the lack of stealth games we have in this generation of games. I love stealth but I know a lot of people younger than me that really cannot stand it. Especially if it is done so well that it requires real effort.

[@acdgamer7292]

@@HamJams Weird, but I guess I get what you're saying. I think what he really should of said is that he's one of the few that likes challenging stealth.

[@reed1645]

I've seen people complain that the gunplay is bad and it's just a typical cover shooter... i'm like... dude... you're playing it wrong lol

[@mosswind]

@@reed1645 And yet the criticism is valid cause the gunplay IS bad. lol.

[@Carabas72]

"Not that bad..." doesn't really make it sound like it's a worthy follow-up to the original.

[@rohegarcia2802]

He also said he didn’t love the first one, so it does.

[@chibiraptor]

@Evan Gellion When someone says something is/isn't bad, we ARE talking about their opinion. "Bad" isn't an objective word, so you must be talking about an opinion.

[@raikkel9516]

@indirect existence what about "good" or "bad" is inherently subjective? If I say, "character development is good," where is my bias?

[@chibiraptor]

@Evan Gellion You went through kindergarten, right? You're aware that some statements are facts and some are opinions, right? Something can't be objectively bad. When you say something is bad, THAT'S AN OPINION. If you aren't capable of hearing someone say "X is bad" and understanding that the thing they said is an opinion, you're an idiot.

[@ItsSomeDeadGuy]

It's blatantly clear that Evan and John either had to repeat third grade or were out sick when their class was taught the difference between a fact and an opinion

[@connorlonergan4967]

"Lesbian murder hobo rampage" 😂 perfect description of Ellies arc in this game lol. Love you're review though, I adore the story in this game and I'm glad you're able to look past the flaws at the greater themes and how well they permeate into the world as you described it. I totally agree that this game is far from flawless, the pacing is all over the place and those tensionless sequences in the early game make the replayability of the game drop significantly after the 2nd play through. I always appreciate your thoughts and this was a great review.

[@strawhatronin7884]

I had to look up the definition of beloved when you mocked people for calling Joel a beloved character. Based on what I've found, he fits the criteria.

[@captainrex2298]

Thats what im saying.

[@nakkiolololo4581]

Oh really, is costing millions of lives to save 1 justified and considered beloved, is killing a doctor who couldbe found a vaccine justified or beloved, okk, i had huge connections with joel and i loved him, but i opened up my fucking brain and reliased that its not pretty sunshine evreywhere, TLOU2 shows a more realistic perspective and more distressing sad, and angry type.

[@wendigo374]

Right? Dude didn't look up the definition.

[@wendigo374]

@@nakkiolololo4581 operating on an unconscious 14 year old, committing terrorist acts, sending Marlene to kill Joel, etc. That's the side you wanna take? Plus a cure wouldn't solve resource or faction issues or distribution issues. If you've opened your brain then open to that too, that's EVEN IF they created a cure.

[@sunnysied713]

@@nakkiolololo4581 Naughty Dog left the ending open for interpretation. Joel was just a blue collar guy struggling to make ends meet. He went through every parent's worst nightmare, which left him broken, but still a survivor. Society took extreme measures to try and neutralize infection spread, even if it meant killing innocent men, women and children (like Sarah). The Fireflies were no different because they also adopted a whatever-it-takes strategy to fight the pandemic. Kill a child? Sure. Marlene never informed Ellie that the operation would be fatal and Ellie was never given the chance to decide. Joel was confronted with the same situation as Sarah, but now with Ellie. Few fathers would willingly give up their child... even for the greater good. Sorry, Joel was right when saying, "Find another way." Even Tommy empathized and agreed that he would've done the same, like most of us. I sure wouldn't want to lose a child - even under those extreme circumstances. This game was all about survival - taking care of you and your own. Find another way. In philosophy, there's the classic question of whether it's moral to take one innocent life for the greater good of society. If you support the non-consent murder of Ellie, then, similarly, you also support eugenics, experimentation on prisoners, capital punishment, genocide and any number of atrocities that benefit the 'greater good'. It's a slippery slope. I know you probably don't believe those things, but you understand the dilemma and ripple effect. The Fireflies found other immune people, experimented on them, killed them and still had no cure. Sure, society would love to kill Ellie and harvest her brain. But it doesn't make it morally right. Marlene promised Ellie's mother that she'd look after her daughter. She dropped the ball. Someone else picked it up and moved with hell and fury. Joel wasn't a hero and he wasn't a villain either. Joel didn't deserve to die a hero wearing cool shades with a rising fireball behind him. And he didn't deserve this. He deserved better. *Halley Gross:* The thing that Neil and the studio really cared about is _honoring Ellie and Joel_ specifically, and their journey as characters. That's not exactly what happened, now is it? Naughty dog has a different definition of 'honor', especially when a character, who looks like Druckmann, spits on the corpse of this beloved franchise. LoU2 was revealed during PlayStation Experience 2016. If people knew that Joel would be _unplayable_ and killed _early, without a fight_ like a _dog_ by a _random_ revenge character related to a _run-of-the-mill_ NPC, then people would be absolutely livid. Many fans aren't excited to pal around with Dina, let alone play as Abby to hunt and assault Ellie because she's now the 'bad guy'. Naughty Dog subverted expectations like an earthquake and fractured the fanbase. Druckmann openly (and nervously) admitted that this story was going to be very divisive. Suicide mission accomplished.

[@jamesraven6766]

'Winnie the Pooh is a beloved character.' Not in China apparently.

[@DippKlippGuy]

He's the beloved leader

[@theguywithsomething8634]

@@DippKlippGuy Winnie the Pooh in: Honey, Tea, and Subjugation

[@andrewphan8002]

Why lol

[@WeWuzSqueebles]

@@DippKlippGuy Fucking hell I nearly spit out my drink reading that.

[@darkmyro]

@Nagger I mean I know dictatorship and all that as the reason, but I would have personally leaned into it. I mean what do you think of when you think Winnie the pooh? he's kind, he's friendly he's not the smartest character, but he does have his moments of insight. If you want people to see you as a leader they have to see you as likeable to be around and suddenly taking away Winnie the pooh isn't gonna do that.

[@43jordyg]

I agree with you on the Joel and being an anti-hero, but personally in this world there are no heroes or villains. Everyone is doing what they can to survive. The fireflies, Abby, Ellie, Joel, Tommy, Owen, and Marlene are all anti-heroes.

[@benbino1282]

Precisely the point. Ellie is no better than Abby, even if you like Ellie more. They both wanted revenge and they both suffered for it.

[@sirdim3162]

@@benbino1282 wrong, Ellie is objectively a better person than Abby. She is constantly seen regretting and questioning her decisions, like when she kills a pregnant woman, but Abby is consistently remorseless in her killing antics

[@reed1645]

@@sirdim3162 really? I love ellie but she beat a dying woman with a steel pipe to get answers. She didn't do a selfless thing the whole game. Abby betrayed the wlf multiple times. First to save yara and later to save lev and at the end she didn't want to fight. She even refused until she had to defend lev. She was even trying to find the fireflies because she had hope again that she could make the world a better place and then the rattlers abused that hope and captured her.

[@zoozie3814]

@Malum not in the world that they have established there's no right or wrong in this world so the only way to live is to act selfishly Abby did and got away Ellie acted selflessly yet has nothing left you can't say that Abby is better than Ellie she deserved better

[@Dracongard]

This. Ellie finally let it go and still lost way more. The journey is pretty much tough shit you got nothing.

[@joe6640]

The two halves of the story tie in thematically. Yeah it would've been nice to see the two plots link up a bit more closely but I personally didn't mind it. I really liked Abby's story playing in opposition to Ellie's. Ellie does nothing but distance herself from her loved ones and go down darker paths with each choice she makes whilst Abby makes new friends and tries to make amends with old ones only to get rebuffed. I found it interesting.

[@THEONETRUEOVERLORD]

Ah yes getting medicine for a girl who dies anyway for 4 hours of gameplay makes total sense narratively with Ellie’s story.

[@troggdorthesecond]

“Lesbian hobo murder rampage” would make a great band name

[@dawgyv72]

I can already hear the shit music from that "band"

[@seb1520]

Reminds me of that obscure ARG band "KFC Murder Chicks"

[@Yuh7544]

Hahaha

[@callummccomiskie9171]

It’s just three bald women holding mirrors facing the audience screaming “slaves”

[@MystikMonK-d1k]

@@callummccomiskie9171 Lol could you imagine?

[@jais24]

I didn't like the game but if other people like the game, that's fine.

[@johngreen8921]

Hey look, common sense

[@acunt]

Hey look, common sense

[@Kremy50]

Hey look, common sense

[@420speedweed]

Hey look, common sense

[@yeahmhmmrightokaymhmmyeahsure]

The reason I don’t care for it is because it literally had so much potential that was wasted. It was actually a great story idea and if they would’ve restructured it the story would be perfect

[@the_Supernova]

Honestly I think a majority of the story problems stem from the pacing. If they got rid of the flashbacks and built Abby and Ellie up BEFORE Joel is killed, then the story would be so much better imho.

[@the_Supernova]

Or at least play as Abby BEFORE she kills Joel and BEFORE you play as Ellie

[@abdulobeid9449]

Factual comment

[@nf5011]

exactly !

[@SuperMurray2009]

@@the_Supernova So basically what would have fixed this game is reconstructing the third act of the game, taking out the filler faction group, and reversing the storylines?

[@israel2hotty]

Battle Rifle basically joel should’ve died 5-8 hours into the game.

[@SuigaRou]

I dunno, I found it refreshing and believable that Abby's story didn't constantly mesh into Ellie's and was it's own thing. Too many stories try to have characters lives intertwining like it's fate. That Abby's journey to realize that revenge had brought her no peace and her meeting Lem was detached from Ellie hunting her down made the moments where their paths did cross again more impactful, in my opinion.

[@slippinndippin1421]

@@philosophyflicksonly problem with alternating is that you’re going to have different abilities unlocked for each character, and have to switch often would get really annoying i feel. also being with abby for an extended period of time lets you relate to her a bit better instead of just waiting to get back to ellie since you know it’s coming, making the moment they finally fight all the more engaging

[@THEONETRUEOVERLORD]

Real life is boring. It doesn’t matter if it’s realistic we just care that it makes sense in the story Abby’s story did not. There is a reason they don’t show the guy who killed John wicks dogs for half the run time of the movie.

[@charlest.5742]

I also think your argument about Joel's "beloved" character status was intentioned well but worded weirdly. I'd agree that killing off a central character is not a betrayal to your audience, but saying that the central character in question isn't beloved because he/she does evil shit is not a good argument IMO. What made this moment powerful was BECAUSE Joel was so beloved - so you might've conflated 'beloved' with 'heroic', which is definitely understandable.

[@muuubiee]

Pretty sure people are confliced with his decisions, and it's not some unanimous "oh gosh joel is such a cuddly beloved bear". Loved character sure, but beloved is a bit too strong here.

[@Shin_FTW]

@@muuubiee No he's beloved. The fan outrage is enough evidence of that. Joel has killed many people, but he only ever killed out of one necessity or another, and he never took pleasure in it. We understand why Joel had to do what he did. Beloved doesn't mean someone is innocent or cuddly. It means someone who is dearly loved or much loved, which Joel very much was.

[@muuubiee]

@@Shin_FTW Lots of people don't agree with what joel did. If basically everyone agreed with what he did, and had no hard feelings to him, he'd be beloved.

[@loukes7758]

Shinku no Yami [Not for kids] Joel didn’t always kill out of necessity. He was selfish and held no remorse for the people he killed. They were just targets to be taken out. And granted, a lot of who he killed deserved it. But to say he didn’t enjoy killing is a lie and to say it was always necessary is also a lie. He is an amazing character but a terrible terrible person. Abby had every reason and every right to kill him.

[@MattSalema]

@@loukes7758 Terrible person is also an overstatement. Part of the reason of why he's so beloved is that you can understand his motivation. His traumas (with the death of his daughter) and insecurities, and also the 20 years he has spent killing and trying to survive with his brother during the outbreak. Honestly, to say he ENJOYED killing has yet to be shown in the games. Tortured, yes, but out of enjoyment? Absolutely not. He's definitely battle hardended, but his motives are why lots of people think he's not terrible at all. Any of us could become Joel, as in trying to survive by any means necessary in an apocalypse while trying to defend the people you love. But does that actually turn you into a terrible person? You become a survivor, honestly Though Abby also isn't terrible, but people will obviously like Darth Vader more than Phasma or Rey, even though he's a literal nightmare. Though to show Abby brutally and cowardly killing a BELOVED character, independently of what he has done, is something Neil Druckmann was counting on to create outrage, which if fine but you know

[@franciscofernandes9251]

Arguing Joel isn't beloved because he's a morally dubious character is like saying John Marston and Arthur Morgan in the Red Dead series aren't beloved characters because they're criminals. Edit: Someone in this comment thread pointed out Lee from TWD and I think it is a perfect inclusion to my analogy Edit 2: Just so I don't have to keep repeating myself in the replies, I am of the opinion Joel should die in this game as he does. BUT, and this is a very big but, it should have been done far better and have a far greater meaning than what it did. No, he shouldn't be able to get away with what he did to the fireflies, yes Abby had all the right reasons to kill him, yes the revenge plot beeing about his death instead of dina's as the trailers indicated was a good bait and switch ,although the trailers actively lied about how much joel was in the game and that is inexcusable, you should have been able to spend more time exploring the fallout of his and Ellie's relationship and just as things are looking better, BAM, Joel dies a far more meaningful death as he sacrifices himself for Ellie in a final display of love, or something like that, something that goes along with his character progression from the first game. This is why I think recognising him as a beloved character by the vast majority of gamers is so important, cause if he wasn't, we wouldn't have cared, if he wasn't there wouldn't be a discussion in the first place. This is a good game, has good gameplay, and the storytelling is bold, HOWEVER, is it a good TLOU sequel? In my opinion no, it commits character assassination to get characters to where the plot needs them to be and the Abby plot was done far too late to the point where it felt like they were force feeding it to me cause they needed me to care about her, otherwise the afore mentioned bold storytelling would flop. At that point I did not care for Abby nor wanted to play as her even though she was a decent character (Imagine the first game showed you the Sara plot at the end of the game instead of at the beginning, same concept here). Had this game not been a TLOU sequel or had it not commited character assassination to the point it did and had treated the beloved characters with more respect (as Neil said they would in early interviews, CAUSE HE KNEW HOW MUCH WE LOVED THEM) I would have enjoyed it far more. You may love it, you may hate it, all valid points, at the end of the day for me the subversion of my expectations failed and I felt like they just intentionally disappointed me for the sake of beeing bold.

[@ichigokurosaki9098]

Francisco Fernandes exactly

[@ralphsanchez6713]

Yeah, you are right... people just like to make really shitty human beings beloved characters. Dont know why

[@idkjordash]

Ralph Sanchez because they are relatable, not everyone is perfect and everyone has reasons for what they do

[@daviejohnstone12]

@@idkjordash not everyone hog ties people and leaves them on train tracks.

[@swagger1613]

Facts

[@TheRibottoStudios]

Anakin Skywalker is a beloved character. That doesn't make him a GOOD PERSON. (If you watched Clone Wars you know what I mean if you haven't don't fucking comment under this thread "he isn't a beloved character".) Joel is a beloved character. That doesn't make him a GOOD PERSON. Deadpool is a beloved character. That doesn't make him a GOOD PERSON. Maleficent is a beloved character. That doesn't make her a GOOD PERSON. Azula is a beloved character. That doesn't make her a GOOD PERSON. Severus Snape is a beloved character. That doesn't make him a GOOD PERSON. Shadow the Hedgeog is a beloved character. That doesn't make him a GOOD PERSON. I could really go on and on with this list but I'll stop here lol. Characters are beloved for a myriad of reasons but just because they are loved by the fandom, doesn't always mean THEY'RE GOOD. As in morally. ffs Winnie the Pooh is a BELOVED character for being cute, simple and child friendly. Joel is a beloved character BECAUSE OF HIS COMPLEX PERSONALITY. It's just like any other anti-hero. We love these types of characters BECAUSE they're so complex.

[@darkstalkero]

‘Joel wasn’t a beloved character’ I wonder what world Is he living in.

[@TKKVL]

And just because they are beloved, it doesn't mean that their deaths don't make sense.

[@chloespirit1169]

We all knew Joel was going to die. We all knew what he did was wrong. How he died I don't agree with that. Yes I understand wanting revenge. But murder is ALWAYS WORSE no matter the justification for it. This is why I hate revenge stories.

[@CaptainRealm]

The last of us 1 made us live through Joel and we see him lose a daughter...like how are you gonna say he isn’t someone beloved by some. he WAS OUR MAIN CHARACTER for the last game!!

[@chaikate591]

@@CaptainRealm he's beloved but morally gray everyone knows this how does this guy not know this lol

[@op_pizza7017]

Cosmonaut I…I don’t think you know what beloved means…because…Joel is absolutely…100%…a beloved character

[@DBZFANX1000]

I mean Joel is a beloved character in the fact that we love him. Just because he is violent to protect what he has left doesn't mean he isn't a beloved character to us. We were playing him basically we were him. When people said beloved character we mean we like him we never said he was link from legend of Zelda.

[@DameDropped71]

Exactly right. You dont have to be a good guy to be a beloved character. Examples: - The Joker in the Arkham games is a beloved character - Vaas in Farcry 3 is a beloved character - Kratos in all God of War games is an anti hero and is one of the most beloved in the playstation community

[@johnambert9302]

Agree 1000%

[@aashrithmadagiri6711]

His point still stands.

[@DBZFANX1000]

@@getoffmyacc9416 wrong Joel didn't kill just because you should know that. Joel kills for either. 1. Self Defense since the military was killing fireflies and was ready to kill others too. And the hunters that ambushed him and ellie. Or 2. Joel kills to protect ellie. Like the fireflies operating for the vaccine which would kill ellie not to mention that ellie was unconscious when they found them. So the fireflies were about to kill ellie technically without her consent. Also the comparison isn't bad because he is saying you don't need to be a goody toe shoes to be a beloved character

[@CODYoungGunna]

@@DBZFANX1000 but joel isn't forced to kill. He could have went on about his life not killing anyone. He also doomed the world by saying Ellie. Ellie was ok with dying. She made peace with the fact that he death could save the world.

[@acezar2644]

"Joel is not a beloved character" Holy shit dude you dropped the ball really hard in this one.

[@elliotdickson2393]

Watch efap?

[@renejuarez4166]

I do pretty fun community

[@Prnnce]

Were you people born in a test tube yesterday because none of you were perking up when tlou1 was brand new and almost everyone I talked to said Joel was an asshole.

[@ThisisKyle]

@@Prnnce Yeah that's totally why Joel isn't one of the top 3 PlayStation characters, because everyone thinks he's an asshole

[@s0lid_sno0ks]

@@Prnnce You probably talk to some moronic commies, then.

[@MrTongen]

''joel isn’t a beloved character'' Did you unironically say this? Everyone loves the shit out of Joel.

[@ichigokurosaki9098]

The Lore of Orsa he didn’t even play the first one, everyone that did loves Joel

[@quamelwebb5912]

I absolutely loved Joel, but my god the man had it coming.

[@drake3292]

Yeah I agree with a lot of his video, but saying Joel isn’t a beloved character is CRAZY. Now is he “hero”, that can be debatable, the moral ambiguity is what makes the story that much more interesting imo

[@EezeeGroover]

Yeah, he calls other people dumb, but he conflated "beloved character" with "hero".

[@siddharthkhirwar2351]

Ichigo Kurusaki Yes he did . He states that in the first 2 minutes of the video and gives the gameplay 6/10 and the story 10/10 . You can constructively criticize the video and express your issues with it , but please stop words in other people’s mouths .

[@Mr.Rex-en5nt]

just because Joel is an anti hero doesn’t mean he isn’t a beloved character

[@MrJoelMiller]

Otherwise, Red Hood is a bad character

[@Mr.Rex-en5nt]

No

[@MrJoelMiller]

@@Mr.Rex-en5nt what I meant by is like if this guy says anti heroes are not beloved characters then red hood would not be a fan favorite character

[@Mr.Rex-en5nt]

oh my bad, sorry

[@MrJoelMiller]

@@Mr.Rex-en5nt nah it’s ok, sometimes I get confused while reading comments too

[@KonradCurves]

"Beloved character" doesn't mean hero. It's a character people love.

[@KonradCurves]

Also I have no problem with Joel dying. It's how they killed him and then present Abby as a nice person. When she literally tortured Joel. She isn't a good person.

[@aspe_S]

@@KonradCurves yeah the context is dumb

[@lowercase21]

Agreed lol its not that hard to comprehend.

[@king24lakerskobe]

@@KonradCurves she did it for a good reason. Just like how ellie wants revenge

[@takkun6112]

@@king24lakerskobe theres no such thing as a good reason for killing someone. Everyone in the tlou universe is selfish. Its a kill or be killed situation.

[@raypolaris3381]

Cosmonaut: They're just mad Joel died. Also Cosmonaut: Joel isn't beloved. 👌

[@NinjaGuyDan_]

Like, HOW do you have these 2 statements in the same video lmao He's the king of contradictions and i expect no less

[@Edax_Royeaux]

Everyone's just mad that Obi-Wan Kenobi died in A New Hope. Well guess what, Obi-Wan isn't beloved! /s

[@CenoriaWoah]

I’m pretty sure he meant “Joel isn’t a hero”

[@samuelolivier3792]

Ray Polaris I think he just used the wrong words, I think he meant Joel is not a likeable or charming character.

[@Edax_Royeaux]

@@samuelolivier3792 He explained that Joel murders people just because he wants to like he's some kind of serial killer. It seems quite likely Cosmo used the words he wanted to use.

[@UncleBenton]

"I'm one of the few people who like when stealth is done well in video games" There are people who don't like good stealth? Like they prefer poor stealth mechanics?

[@uhuhuh1966]

There are many people that don’t like stealth at all

[@gotham_knight1091]

Yes. People have different opinions.

[@UncleBenton]

@@gotham_knight1091 I'm one of the few people who actually like it when a game is fun and entertaining to play

[@flamingbow10]

@@UncleBenton 🤣when you say it like that I see how it sounds dumb. But tbh there are people that do not like stealth whatsoever, and prefer it when it’s simple and quick

[@xrstevenson]

@@uhuhuh1966 there's a difference between not liking Stealth, and not liking *Good* Stealth mechanics

[@magiccookies420]

Saying Joel isn’t a beloved character just because he’s flawed is ridiculous.

[@alexhodder4918]

yeh doesnt beloved mean loved?

[@moshekaykay7297]

He's saying that Joel isn't a good person. He's a monster. Joel is a LOVED character. Beloved is like a sweet character like Mickey Mouse.

[@magiccookies420]

@@moshekaykay7297 that’s just ridiculous. Acting like only a certain genre of character is allowed to be “beloved” is so dumb. Like what? Both you and Marcus’s point reminds me of those annoying kids from high school English class who just say shit yo sound smart without fully putting thought into it. There are plenty of beloved characters who are flawed. Take Tony Sopranos character for instance. That character is beloved. Not just “loved“

[@moshekaykay7297]

@@magiccookies420 I'm correcting Marcus's point. He meant beloved as in a treasured icon. Joel is a beloved character, just not in the way he meant to describe.

[@kanishkpandey6068]

@@magiccookies420no, you’re wrong, that’s what beloved means, Joel is also a beloved character, but there is no point in saying he shouldn’t’ve died, he is a not a good person, he is a anti-hero, and he does not do good stuff, Joel is a beloved character in the way Venom is a beloved character, they’re anti-heroes and not good people

[@Joanyuh]

"Joel isn't a beloved character" now I see where the dislikes come from

[@mobamba2197]

Fr Joel is a beloved character to the fans

[@hp9351]

Did you listen to what he had to say about that, or did you hear that and automatically decide that this video wasn’t worth listening to?

[@filipvadas7602]

@@hp9351 he kinda messed up what a character being "beloved"means. A character doesn't have to be a hero or even a good person to be beloved.

[@hellyee4250]

Kratos is an absolute ass hat but i love the shit out of him

[@seb1520]

Hes a "beloved character" in the sense that fans love him but he has done some reprehensible shit in the previous game, thus meaning his death was only a matter of time. Hes not some wholesome Dad character, he IS and antihero who you can empathize with.

[@spicygaming3783]

"Lesbian murder hobo rampage" is probably my favorite quote ever

[@almighty_turtle8090]

XD

[@strawberryaliendeer]

If that ain't what I do on Sundays

[@yegor2]

basically d&d with a bad group

[@strawberryaliendeer]

@@yegor2 'bad' don't pretend that doesn't sound fun to roleplay in d n d

[@panyarou]

brb gonna kick myself for audibly giggling at that cartoon "bonk" sound.

[@ManuSefue]

I reproduced it several times And I don't know why it gave me laughter, but it still makes me laugh

[@terraventusaqua123]

Puppet Pal Joel! There’s a spider in your bed! BONK!!!

[@natathetata1648]

I did the exact same thing

[@s.l.thecoffeeaddict1657]

Petition for all zombie games to have BONK sound effects.

[@NinaMouse11]

That moment got me so good.

[@finnish_hunter]

First of all, you cannot compare movies and videogames, the other is interactive whilst the other is not. Choice is always appraised if done well and there is none in TLOU2.

[@Jo666s]

Bro’s arguing while watching the video 💀

[@coreysauya]

​@@Jo666son god

[@finnish_hunter]

@@Jo666s What else are comments for then you nincanpoop.

[@K.Gthealmighty]

Seriously this whole killing hundreds of people just to get to one person and ultimately spare them to apparently “break the cycle of revenge” is so dumb like just imagine how many revenge cycles you’ve created by killing hundreds of people just because you’ve spared the person you were originally going to take revenge against doesn’t mean you’ve ended the cycle because those hundreds of people who you’ve killed to get to the the person you wanted to take revenge against could have had families and friends who may want to take vengeance for their loss honestly if you’re going to take several lives that are unrelated to your vengeance you may as well take your revenge because it’s to goddam late to end the cycle

[@ryancarson6962]

Kg the almighty Yeah you’re right. And the game constantly shaming Ellie for when she resorts to violence is also stupid since most of the time she’s acting in self defense. When she kills Abby’s cohorts that’s usually after they try to murder her. This is made worse due to how the game let Abby get her revenge rather easily and her actions aren’t equally put under scrutiny despite how vicious and sadistically she murdered Joel even after he saved her life.

[@MyThoughtsAndI]

Ikr imagine if captain price and soap decided not to kill shepherd in the end of mw2. Same thing except Ellie should personally hate abby more than price/soap hate shepherd.

[@dustyfedora]

It’s even more likely that someone will come after Ellie, after how Abby’s friends and family she was getting vengeance on Joel over were also Nameless and Faceless characters from the first game.

[@itssitcomstupid]

Oh what you mean like exactly what they do in the first game? Kill a shit ton of random people, to make a cure to save the world only for Joel to change his mind at the end? By your logic, the first game should be trash too.

[@ibrahimali-jt4gg]

@@ryancarson6962 oh so being in an enslavement camp and losing someone you love soo deeply plus more friends isnt enough?

[@thelordphenom9676]

"Joel is not a beloved character." "Carl Johnson is not a beloved character." "Arthur Morgan is not a beloved character."

[@yesididitverywell]

This whole video was pretentious as fuck. What is up with people thinking it's deep and nuanced to sum up Joel's whole character arc with "he was a shitty person". This shows neither depth nor critical thinking on their part. TLOU ended with the moral ambiguity of Joel's decision to save Ellie's life, it's not as simple as people are making it out to be.

[@aashrithmadagiri6711]

yesididitverywell People are still hating on this game for surface stuff. His video may be extreme, but the point still stands. Joel is not some hero who deserves a heroic death. He is a human being who can die normally, and even brutally, like every person in this world. At the end of the day, there are people idolizing Joel and there are people thinking that Joel is a heinous villain. Both of them are wrong.

[@sovietslime9016]

idek the other two

[@wendigo374]

@@yesididitverywell right? Joel did bad things to survive but people cometely overlook the good he did.

[@sunnysied713]

@@aashrithmadagiri6711 Naughty Dog left the ending open for interpretation. Joel was just a blue collar guy struggling to make ends meet. He went through every parent's worst nightmare, which left him broken, but still a survivor. Society took extreme measures to try and neutralize infection spread, even if it meant killing innocent men, women and children (like Sarah). The Fireflies were no different because they also adopted a whatever-it-takes strategy to fight the pandemic. Kill a child? Sure. Marlene never informed Ellie that the operation would be fatal and Ellie was never given the chance to decide. Joel was confronted with the same situation as Sarah, but now with Ellie. Few fathers would willingly give up their child... even for the greater good. Sorry, Joel was right when saying, "Find another way." Even Tommy empathized and agreed that he would've done the same, like most of us. I sure wouldn't want to lose a child - even under those extreme circumstances. This game was all about survival - taking care of you and your own. Find another way. In philosophy, there's the classic question of whether it's moral to take one innocent life for the greater good of society. If you support the non-consent murder of Ellie, then, similarly, you also support eugenics, experimentation on prisoners, capital punishment, genocide and any number of atrocities that benefit the 'greater good'. It's a slippery slope. I know you probably don't believe those things, but you understand the dilemma and ripple effect. The Fireflies found other immune people, experimented on them, killed them and still had no cure. Sure, society would love to kill Ellie and harvest her brain. But it doesn't make it morally right. Marlene promised Ellie's mother that she'd look after her daughter. She dropped the ball. Someone else picked it up and moved with hell and fury. Joel wasn't a hero and he wasn't a villain either. Joel didn't deserve to die a hero wearing cool shades with a rising fireball behind him. And he didn't deserve this. He deserved better. *Halley Gross:* The thing that Neil and the studio really cared about is _honoring Ellie and Joel_ specifically, and their journey as characters. That's not exactly what happened, now is it? Naughty dog has a different definition of 'honor', especially when a character, who looks like Druckmann, spits on the corpse of this beloved franchise. LoU2 was revealed during PlayStation Experience 2016. If people knew that Joel would be _unplayable_ and killed _early, without a fight_ like a _dog_ by a _random_ revenge character related to a _run-of-the-mill_ NPC, then people would be absolutely livid. Many fans aren't excited to pal around with Dina, let alone play as Abby to hunt and assault Ellie because she's now the 'bad guy'. Naughty Dog subverted expectations like an earthquake and fractured the fanbase. Druckmann openly (and nervously) admitted that this story was going to be very divisive. Suicide mission accomplished.

[@mattsworld5700]

Bro, I've never heard anyone call Joel a "hero." It was the fact that he was flawed and didn't always make the heroic decisions is what made him likable and relatable. Joel's death bothered people because of how it happened. Also, the reason why the ending didn't work because it was anticlimactic. Ellie killed hundreds of people and waits until we get to the actual person who killed Joel, NOW she wants to forgive. Ellie killed a pregnant woman for God's sake but felt the person who killed Joel needed to live. As a character that didn't make sense, and when Ellie chooses to forgive Abby, she ends up alone. The whole game does seem kind of pointless in that way. I felt would have packed a much more powerful punch if Ellie ended up killing Joel and she didn't feel better. Since you brought up No Country For Old Men. I'd like to bring up another Cohen brothers movie which it is the remake of True Grit. The movie ends with the main character getting revenge, following through with it but still feel cold and empty years later which showed how damaging it is to base your life on revenge. That's what this game failed at, it may have been about forgiveness but it failed at telling that story.

[@karkrash]

Relax

[@TheRibottoStudios]

@@karkrash nah people are gonna be angry this is a POORLY written video-he's COMPLETELY CONVENIENTLY FORGOTTEN that people OUTRIGHT SAID that what Joel did was wrong. Like people admitted that. But they love Joel because he's a well written character. Not because "he's GOOD" morally.

[@edadankmemes]

The thing is, though, Ellie did get her revenge on Abby. In fact, ALL of her friends are dead. All the people that she cared about are gone. Abby is already broken by the end. The issue is that the pacing and the story structure prevents people from actually giving a shit about Abby's friends.

[@FutonJohn]

Well said bro

[@TheBleachj16]

In regards to Abby's friends, Ellie killed them in self-defense. The pregnant women that she killed was trying to kill her. Even when she saves Abby towards the end she isn't sure she wants to go through with it.

[@TheGreatAndEpicMe]

Imagine this. The game starts of with you as Abby, the story is framed as a typical post apocalyptic revenge story of finding who killed her family or whatever, just some basic plot that is not uncommon to games. Joel and Ellie aren't mentioned at all. For the first section, all of the gameplay is with Abby. The Last of Us 2 is framed as a story completely different and independent from the first game, fooling the player into thinking the Last of Us is more of an anthology series on survivors in the post apocalypse rather than one whole story. You learn more about Abby, and become more attached to her character and past as well as the people she is friends with, as you have with Joel and Ellie in the previous game. You play through like 5 hours of normal exploring, piecing together clues and following a trail of this mystery man who killed your family. Then, you come across Joel all of a sudden in the wilderness, work together to survive a horde. Hopefully making you think "Pretty cool that they did a cameo for Joel from the last game" but think nothing more of it. Then he introduces himself, and the story plays out as it did in this game, with both protagonists killing beloved characters from both sides, hurting characters you've built relationships with and cared about the whole game(s). I think that framing provides a more gripping story about revenge, forgiveness and actually teaches the lesson of it clearly, seeing as you may have actually cared about the the characters before they died. And this way, you actually empathize with Abby more, rather than just hating her outright from the get-go.

[@sohei7798]

Change her design up a bit to not make Abby built like a roided up barbie doll but still rough(like Tess), then boom a solid plot because the player is already aware of Joel's and eille's stories therefore understanding the tension and intensity everyone has against each other.

[@theunknown7441]

This is much better

[@morscode3534]

this would've been far better

[@robogreek3157]

Wouldn't work unless they advertised the game as NO JOEL AND ELLIE

[@Phoenix_of_Sun]

Yeah, honestly Abby's story should have been its own game in between part 1 and 2. Abby's game should have ended right when they first get eyes on Jackson.

[@TheFearCreepypasta]

"JoEl Is NOt a BeLOVeD ChAracTer". Normally I agree with you man but this is just flat out incorrect.

[@pennaddict]

Cry about it

[@thisisntfine6729]

Zachery Lewis said by the guy who is crying to every negative comment telling them to cry about it

[@luisfelipevaninmartins2858]

Ye budy, the guy made a bunch of shit, but WE love him, but... the world dont care joel is a horrible person for the world

[@gustav_4190]

he isn't a hero. He is my favorite protagonist in many years, but doesn't change the fact he might have doomed humanity.

[@TheFearCreepypasta]

@@gustav_4190 I'm only saying he's beloved. Whatever anyones opinion of his actions, he is loved by many fans of the game.

[@jacoblopez8923]

Just because a character has done bad things doesn’t mean they can’t be beloved, I don’t understand that argument at all

[@comandantethorn9929]

i mean from my point of view the main argument was that "you cant kill beloved characters" is a dumb thing to say xd

[@ArcticWolf00Alpha0]

According to Cosmos logic, Thanos isnt a beloved character because he killed half the universe.......what an awful arguement to make,,,

[@thatonechinese4537]

Arctic Fox 0406 thanos ideas is big brain, obviously sacrifice one half to save the others

[@thatonechinese4537]

Isaac Sclafani I was just being a shit head

[@zandyzain6241]

Agree,.That is why i understand Abby reasons to kill Joel. Her father is beloved characters to Abby

[@jb111082]

"This is not a revenge story".......Neil Druckman would disagree with you.

[@emxma8441]

it is, but it also shows that even revenge can be fucking destroying y and literally make you go crazy. Poor Ellie. I hope the 3rd game make her justice.

[@xZero9Ox]

Saying it is a revenge story implies Ellie needs to kill Abby at the end which is why people say it's not. It's a story about revenge but not really a revenge story.

[@eduardohenriquecarneiroalv6343]

@@xZero9Ox I guess that's why it feels so fucked up, they try to use a theme subversion from Cycles of Revenge to some kind of Forgiveness? But yeah, they do it in the last 10 minutes after 25 hours of mass murder. I like to compare this game to RDR2 because both protagonists die and you're forced to play another character. So in RDR2 you start the game thinking it's about the gang being a family and the importance of being togheter as one in the world we (they) live. But the gang gradually starts falling apart with people dying or leaving as the game turns into Arthur's Redemption story after he's seen all the bad he's done throughout his life. No, he doesn't stop doing 'bad' things, but he tries so fucking hard that all you want for him is to finally go to his "beach house". But there's no normal life for a man like him and he sacrifices himself so John could live the life he never had. RDR2 shows really how you do theme subversion. TLOU 2 does that in the ending simply because they seemed to have forgotten that it takes time to convince the players the story is not about what they rooted for in the beginning. But they make you play 25 hours of revenge for Ellie to see Joel playing the guitar and give up on killing after mass murderer

[@BlazerManiacNumber96]

Neil himself said it isn't a revenge story

[@rzkakbarr]

It’s a story about forgiveness.

[@jordanhodder8481]

Abby's story isn't dispensable, it shows what would've happened if Ellie had gone through with it at the end of the game. Abby gets her revenge but it leaves her hollowed out and transformed into a killing machine with nothing to show for it. The two stories form a complete circle since Abby's story essentially starts at the (alternate) end of Ellie's. The many callbacks and parallels between Abby/Lev and Joel/Ellie, both subtle and overt, serve to reinforce the idea that Ellie is setting herself out on a path to emulate Joel and thus her final decision (a "schism" ending like the first game) drives home that she's coming into herself as an adult by moving on.

[@Revealingstorm.]

You get it

[@Vishnuk-fe9iv]

abby is a garbage character. Nothing good about her.

[@Lifelight_]

*reads title* *sees like/dislike ratio* Well, here I go comment section. 🍿🥤

[@erice3095]

You have a very odd definition of what it means to be a "beloved" character, and saying you're one of the few people who appreciate well done stealth in games as if it's such a niche genre isn't doing you any favors when it comes to not looking so conceited and egotistical

[@daddysenpai408]

@crueluu no, he's just an idiot high on his own ego

[@royalsour3736]

​@@daddysenpai408 yeah...I'm fan of old daddy Cosmonaut but this was a shitty take imo, but that's why the world has opinions.. and everyone is entitled to their own

[@NeroSeries]

Royal Sour idk but he kinda sounds entitled like “if you dont believe in the same thing i do then you are wrong” some of the things i agree with but stuff like “this is not a revenge story its about forgiveness” no i myself think it 100% is a revenge story about how pointless it is and how it will just create a cycle of hate.

[@erice3095]

@crueluu The definition straight from the dictionary for beloved is "dearly loved" and Joel fits that criteria perfectly. He was a huge fan favorite despite his harsh actions at times because he's a well written and relatable character. Cosmo was just flat out wrong here, plain and simple. I like the guys videos and I'm sort of in the same boat as him when it comes to regarding the game as a mixed bag, but don't try to pretend like he can't be wrong and full of shit at times

[@am_messiah]

Nine Worlds Gaming so what ur saying is that it is that the story is about how pointless revenge is. Sooo its about breaking the chain of revenge and hatred but not about forgiveness?

[@obijuankenobi3814]

"Arthur Morgan is not a beloved character, he robs people, banks, and kills people."

[@johnbarrientosiii6586]

I get exactly what you’re saying. This asshole thinks just bc Joel does some pretty bad shit doesn’t make him a beloved character. Arthur Morgan, John Marston, Carl Johnson, Niko Bellic, etc they’re not perfect but we love them and they’re our beloved characters

[@johnbarrientosiii6586]

Prachurjya Pradip thats alot of words

[@witcherjohn3440]

John Barrientos anything gta lol

[@Asriel_Cypher]

@@anonymous99632 My goodness. Please separate some of the large paragraphs. I thought this a copy-pasted thesis or something. Okay. I disagree with the 2nd part. I am pretty sure everyone knows WHY people are upset. I agree with the part that Druckman had no idea what to write. He said in an interview the story is structured for us to kill Abby. They changed their minds halfway. So that's why the story is... fucked...

[@seunghwanoh9505]

@@anonymous99632 First of all I think everyone knew that Joel will die in the sequel. I mean Joel just killed thousands of fireflies and to not get the consequence is stupid in my opinion. However the execution was one of the worse I could ever find in a game. No foreshadowing or justice to the character. One of the weirdest thing I find is Joel believing someone when Joel himself knows what kind of world it is. I mean Joel tried to ram a man with a truck when some guy was in the middle of the road asking for help. Even tommy should know much as Joel since he is one of the character that was with joel and survived. There are many ways that abby could have caught joel by his own such as kidnapping one of the settlement people. Or ruining the power station and giving joel the warning for him to come alone. However, they should result it with pure luck of abby just somehow getting to joel and tommy by going into a snow where there are thousands of zombies and by pure luck lures joel and tommy the two guys who knew the brutality the world can bring just by trusting a stranger. Which also brings the fact that abby doesn't get no consequences whatsoever when she is going to a blizzard where thousands of zombies will try to kill you. These kind of action shows plot holes and poor writing. I would rather root for a character who thinks well and tries to overcome the challenge by choices that I could relate and understand not someone who gets everything by pure luck. Lastly the reason why your second point is people understand why ellie did not kill abby. Its just that when we are playing as ellie she goes through a lot troubles and even doing immoral acts such as killing a pregnant person which I found very annoying and depressing. I mean it also felt like a waste of time to go to the end and have one of the worst execution. We could have seen a sign of hesitation or even a sign of regret once in while but we see none and we only see the end where ellie is crying. I mean one of the worst execution we could've ever had and as you can see no foreshadowing or building up to this decision. There is a reason why it is hated and many agrees to it because me personally I felt a waste of time playing it.

[@librarygary1618]

I really loved the flashbacks and Abby's story a lot because it just fleshed out the world. I never at any point thought "why doesn't Ellie know about the cult" because it didn't have anything to do with her, it was fleshing out Abby's character and showing the war that her faction was experiencing.

[@Soap010]

Damn people care about that? Why? 😂 😂 😂 I just don't get it

[@25ciskey25]

and she does know about the cult.. she talks about it with jessie and asked if he ran into them after she stomped a group of them

[@LeoneWorlds]

“Vegeta isn’t a beloved character”

[@franky_saint]

One of my first thoughts that came to mind lol

[@PatacoinsTV]

Oh come on, he just killed and/or enslaved a few dozens of planets for Freeza's army. HE'S OUR BUDDY NOW.

[@unclephillymya]

“Tony Stark dead ain’t a emotional death”

[@DigiCube4]

PatacoinsTV redemption arcs matter

[@thenethralking6032]

By his logic, that’s actually true so let’s see that work for him

[@squidbate3404]

most people aren’t mad that joel died. they are mad at how and when.

[@SleeperGuy23]

It fuels the whole point in the story. Where else could it have happened vans had more impact?

[@raqqhelen]

So hear me out. I’ve been thinking a lot by the “Joel letting his guard down” thing. We clearly see Abby getting revenge did something to her: she went completely overboard to save the Seraphites she used to hate and even more overboard to get the medicine the girl needed. So imagine how doing what he did must have taken a tool on Joel, evey life he sees taken by the infected is on his hands, for years and years. I’m not saying its justified being more trusting in other people but it definitively it would change the way he handles them.

[@dripkuz]

That's the point. They wanted you to be mad at Abby so you can relate to how Ellie feels.

[@MunchthatCrunch]

I think every single one of those people is inventing a vague reason to mask just being mad that Joel died. Do we *really* think any version of a person traumatically hurt by his actions finding him and killing him would satisfy these people?

[@titiv22]

OriginOfSleeperguy it would of had a lot of impact if we didn’t have to stop on a ellie cliffhanger and play abbys backstory that no one gives two shits about. I love ellie’s part but come on you can’t defend abbys shit gameplay

[@MrSmithGuy]

Saying Joel isn’t a ‘beloved’ character based on the fact that he’s done ‘bad things’ in a post-apocalyptic world is as DUMB as saying Rick Grimes isn’t a ‘beloved’ character in The Walking Dead.

[@josiahfour25]

He is not beloved, it's like Walter White in breaking bad. He is not a beloved character. He is an inciting, intriguing and interesting character. That does NOT mean he is a beloved character. A lot of people did not like Joel, as they didn't like Walter White. That didn't make the show / games any less good.

[@brianandrew8968]

Rick Grimes admits himself that he's just a killer

[@st8vie282]

@@josiahfour25 true but I still feel joel is a beloved character as they set him up to immediately being a character to sympathise with the death of his daughter

[@MrSmithGuy]

Josiah David Well you’re definitely not speaking for the majority with that opinion. There’s a reason why everyone is so overwhelmingly pissed off with what was done with Joel and it’s not because he’s ‘interesting’.

[@itschewsday5252]

Ya it's a stupid take

[@aguywithalotofopinions412]

One thing I didn't like was the extreme violence. I get that the point is to show how horrible all that stuff is but at some point it stops being a lesson and just becomes torture porn

[@XnonTheGod]

Extreme violence? Why picking on this game ? Rdr2(mortal Kombat: hold my beer) has the same violence too... Plus it's written most of the times +18 on the cover or whatever, you want kitty games go play Super Mario. And did you actually compared this Piece of art to torture porn or whatever? Really? I hope they add more violence(if it's a violent game) and things become super fascinating as graphic design develops(well not more violence, more realistic... every time). It's like sayin GAME OF THRONES is a bad stupid tv show because of its violence, have you ever said that? Everyone's going CreaZy ¯\_ಠ_ಠ_/¯

[@atom8248]

@@XnonTheGod It just becomes kinda edgy when you have tons of fun blowing people up and calling them 'fucker' before they die, and then afterward the message is "VioLEnCe BaD". I have no choice but to brutally murder people, and it's super fun too, so the message kinda gets lost. I won't feel bad just because npc #5 screams "BARRY!!", when I blow someone up. It is honestly just weird that Ellie spares Abby at the end, after she kills dozens of people to get to her.

[@XnonTheGod]

@@atom8248 i understand, the thing is that in games with actual story, devs have to create a fun environment, for example in mass effect Andromeda you just go around killing people but the storyline is actually that Ryder is the good guy or whatever... In these games you outta close your eyes through the gameplay (the gameplay is only for the fun), and follow the cutscenes for the actual story, but even through that Ellie kills a lot of people that had little to do with Joel's death... So maybe the ending was a bit off and the massage was not as good but with a bit of change the overall Story and gameplay and graphics and... Were good!!! For whatever reason saying it was too violence (literally rdr2 n mortal Kombat: hold my beer) is as stupid as fuck

[@atom8248]

@@XnonTheGod yeah, I think naughty dog just kinda messed up. The gameplay is fun, but a thing that they talked a lot about when the first game was coming out was ludonarrative dissonance (which is a hard word to spell) which this game has a lot of. It is a story with two characters and you change perspective with flashbacks etc. I think they could of cut a lot of the Abby parts (since they wreck the pacing) and rearranged the story a bit and it would have been waaay better. They should have made multiple endings imo, based on what you decide to do in the story.

[@XnonTheGod]

@@atom8248 agreed, i only disagree with the last part, if we would've given a choice then it wasn't Ellie's story or journey, it was the player's, which holds you deeply responsible for choices(that you should've made during the game if choosing was an option) that you may never wanted to choose because of ambiguity in options(choices)...

[@aquileslame6897]

"Joel isn't a beloved character, he is a violent anti-hero" The most famous violent anti-hero (Deadpool) is one of the most beloved characters of all times, I fail to see the conection between those points.

[@aashrithmadagiri6711]

Except Deadpool’s universe is supposed to be funny and super hero-ish while the last of us’ world is grounded in reality. Your scope of judgement should be changed based on the IP you’re examining.

[@thesynergy2]

@@aashrithmadagiri6711 Joel isn't even an anti-hero, he's a hero depending on your own morality. MANY people would do the exact same thing that he did.

[@jujubank3176]

@@aashrithmadagiri6711 I don't see how someone with a skewed morality is automatically deemed not able to a beloved character. Walter White is a straight up villain at the end of the show and he's one of the most beloved TV characters ever.

[@danielalmeida7382]

I think he used the wrong words, he is saying that Joel isn’t a good guy

[@JD-xm4uf]

@@thesynergy2 Yeah, if your morality is really screwed he may be hero, same thing with the punisher.

[@hishedarthvader4340]

7:11 just because he’s an anti hero doesn’t mean people don’t love his character...

[@Yulfyr]

Simple test, you are forced to press a button that would kill 5 people on the right that are tied to chairs or the other button which will kill your beloved one on the left also tied to the chairs. If you do not make a decision in 5 mins, one of the five person on the right will be given a gun to kill your beloved. If none of the 5 will kill your beloved then the families and loved ones of the 5 will be tortured and killed in front of them. You do not know these 5 people, all you know is that they are innocent, but if you chose to kill them. Your personal information, data, address will be leaked to their families and loved ones. I think I'd know what most people will choose...

[@Yulfyr]

@PUNMPKIN with what? Bashing the button made of Stainless Steel with your bare hands?

[@alexanderinoa7850]

Jasper Mark Easy, kill all six of ‘em.

[@arias3295]

@@Yulfyr What a shitty and convoluted mess of a trolley problem.

[@eduardolobo2533]

that was really a stupid critique

[@maxg2335]

> People are just mad about Joel dying > Joel isn't beloved The title of this video is some beautiful irony.

[@aprilu_u3802]

greentext outside of 4chan

[@platinummad4701]

He made an oopsie, Joel is a beloved d character, jut that doesn't make him a good character, people in general has shit taste.

[@timekeeper2538]

@@aprilu_u3802 Almost like it's easy to guess what type of person lacks the necessary empathy to understand this kind of story.

[@platinummad4701]

@@thecod2345 he seem like the stock grumpy protagonist from the 90ies, you know the one who doesn't wanna save the world and just wanna do his thing, but ends up saving the world anyways because you gotta push the story forward and all his attitude ends up coming off as posturing, not really what I'd call a good character.

[@platinummad4701]

@@thecod2345 that's one of the oldest video game tropes ever, saved the loved one vs save the world and there have been games that actually let you decide what you want to do, again not original, nothing special about Joel as a character, he is a trope, a popular trope nonetheless, but a trope, Tlou2 at least tried to humanize him a bit.

[@comraderacoon3663]

Your point that people shouldn’t be mad that a character dies because they were a bad person doesn’t make much sense, then how you explain why people like characters such as Arthur Morgan Guts Walter white Deadpool Vaas Darth Vader Bill cypher Eren jaeger And many many more

[@TheSamuelCish]

And after losing her fingers, Ellie loses the ONE THING Joel left her with. Guitar.

[@BlacktionHero]

It's funny because earlier in the game, one of the characters jokes to another that they only need 3 fingers

[@rossren9691]

But remember the moth on the guitar ellie is the moth and abby is the light (fireflys) moths cant resist the light

[@jaustengirl441]

Wrong. He left her with a life worth living, worth fighting for. She forgives him and she forgives herself before laying him and her grief to rest, and then goes to Jackson to see if Dina could try to forgive her.

[@AntoineBandele]

Her leaving the guitar is her letting Joel go... which is the whole point. It’s what Joel should have done with her (and Sarah)... let them go.

[@dashman8499]

@@jaustengirl441 Ohhhhhh I really like that.

[@GuilhermeTB1]

Frieza is arguably the most despicable being in the universe, and he is a "beloved" character.

[@bashirsheikh7322]

that's cause he got style, when your that fine good and evil don't matter

[@GuilhermeTB1]

@@bashirsheikh7322 Not only that, he's interesting to watch. We've grown to like him despite his morality. Same goes for characters like Walter White. He's not a good person, but I love him as a character.

[@matthewbouton5121]

yeh but as the audience, you wernt forced to see goku get tortured by a golf club and get killed off early just to give gohan a narrative for hate and revenge. You also werent forced for 10 hours straight to watch frieza leading up to that point.

[@marvelsnapnoob]

Well, I don't love him just like I don't love Cersei or Darth Vader. I love to hate them, is defferent. I love Joel, but I am not blind to the point I don't see that he makes bad choices.

[@GuilhermeTB1]

@@matthewbouton5121 I'm drawing a parallel between Frieza and Joel though, not Abby. I like Joel, as a character, despite of what he did. Which doesn't mean I think he's a good person.

[@KevIn-ns4jw]

"Not that bad" is not what anyone wanted to hear from a sequel to TLOU.

[@DeltaSpartan141]

The first one wasn't even that good to begin with.

[@KasaiKouhai]

M Murphy but the gameplay was straight ass

[@DapsSenpai]

@@cn2673 Joel in first game was also a killer, and the psycho part is only your opinion

[@KasaiKouhai]

Carson N S by your logic Ellie as much of a killer and psychopath

[@biffyguybiffy6292]

Kev In, ok? Correct the first game is better, what’s your point?

[@chamachell0]

I didn’t understand the purpose of Abby’s section of the story at first either, but then I took the time to think and look back on it after finishing the game. As you said, the game’s focus isn’t completely about revenge, but forgiveness as well. Now, when we start playing as Abby for the first time, we’re on a revenge quest with her. She actually brings her revenge to fruition, which is the whole reason that Ellie’s journey begins in the first place. Abby’s story is about the aftermath of revenge and the damages it causes. Her relationships became complicated, the nightmares didn’t stop. She’s stuck in the same spot she was before. Killing Joel didn’t fix anything. Her life just became a bit worse But when we encounter Lev and Yara, things begin to change. Abby’s way of healing wasn’t revenge, but through an act of kindness. After spending years as a remorseless scar killer, she finds solace in helping others. Its why she goes back for them, because she couldn’t forgive herself if she did. Abby’s learning to forgive herself and heal as a person, juxtaposed to Ellie who is doing the complete opposite. I get that its still hard to come around by, considering Abby is a character we have no prior connection to, like Joel and Ellie. But I don’t think it was a waste of time. Abby’s story might not change the narrative, but helps flesh out Abby’s character and what the message is driving towards

[@henningneumann368]

agreed, Abby is getting over it in the theatre, and looks at least somewhat happy after she left Seattle. Ellie is fucking miserable all the time bc she can't move on

[@eMysterium]

I think the problem most people are having with this game is Joel getting killed by a new character that you then have to control for a giant stretch of the game. I don't think it is just because Joel died.

[@Creed606]

You're part right. Its also because the way he dies. The way he dies is outright pathetic for a beloved character. He dies 2 hours into the game and fans were mad about it. Instead of dying for savin in a heroic kind of way like saving ellie etc. He died by a fucking golf club.

[@coolbeans3752]

It's HOW he died.

[@aellahnjung]

After everything he’s done and all the people he crossed , you expect that it wasn’t gonna bite him back in the end?

[@zNaux]

The way he died was dumb and lazy writing

[@Micheal93k]

If they paid attention to the last game. Joel's death wouldn't have affected or surprised as hard.

[@britbloc123]

"There was a sequel. It wasn't as good" - Joel.

[@ichigokurosaki9098]

britbloc123 last of us 2 electric boogaloo

[@eduardolobo2533]

ellie said that

[@sirjoey3137]

@@eduardolobo2533 no

[@manuelleyva2811]

Eduardo lobo no she didn’t

[@RyanSantos-cn5ij]

@@eduardolobo2533 which scene?

[@Ally33218]

My first thought after finishing the game was that it felt like events were written in the wrong order. You put that into words really well

[@golfer435]

I somewhat disagree. They needed the chosen order because ultimately this game is about Ellie.

[@adisabledchild5260]

@@golfer435 most of the people like this person, and myself, the way they ordered the game made us not care about any of the characters as we were killing them, rather than FORCING us to go and kill people and then afterwards shows us a cutscene with them and why we should care and feel bad but none of us do, because we don’t know them.

[@golfer435]

@@adisabledchild5260 I never took it as the game trying to get you to care about Owen, Mel, etc. I took it as the game getting you to care about Ellie and Abby as they were the POV characters.

[@poutsamouni5483]

No lol they were carefilly.puted how was that the firdt thimg you thought i never thought about that because they are not

[@bruce9313]

@@adisabledchild5260 That's kinda the point though. Ellie's journey of revenge makes her see everyone as a thing to be dealt with for her objective instead of a person so we kill them without ever questioning who they might've been outside of her revenge.

[@GeekHelix]

Genuinely one of the dumbest takes of this controversy that has ever occurred. But thanks for putting your thoughts out there as I needed to show my friend who just completed the game, as she genuinely believed that no one could defend this game because they would have to be, in her words, "...surgically braindead to do so."

[@ZenTunE-]

I think I'm braindead too since I enjoyed the game. But hey, what's a little less brain activity if it means I get to actually enjoy games 🤔

[@araiaxerina]

Isn't the mere fact that a lot of people are angry that a certain character died shows that character is a "beloved" character? 🤷

[@cxyj4y]

🎷🎷🎷🎷🎷🎷🎷🎷🎷🎷🎷🎷🎷🎷🌚🎷🎷🎷🎷🎷🎷🎷🎷🎷🌚🎷🎷🎷🎷🎷🎷🎷🎷🎷🎷🎷🎷🎷🎷

[@infinitygames9317]

He is beloved, doesn’t make him a good person.

[@mucci8172]

I am yet to hear that argument from the TLOU players.

[@michaelmilewski8679]

I think his point was that the character was flawed and his flaws and mistakes sort of justify people being angry with him

[@abdullahahmad4239]

@@mucci8172 What crack are you on?. Streams of popular streamers who literally played both games and didn't like Joel's death are dime a dozen. The game sucks.Accept it

[@milesmorales6305]

“Murder never felt so good”- Cletus Kassidy

[@Wake2-2-2]

the scene where Manny woke Abby. she was reading a book about a narcissistic sociopath. that seems legit

[@andressotil4671]

Oh boy, here I go killing again!

[@captaincz5763]

"Joel isn't a beloved character" bruh what.

[@DeltaMezzo]

i know

[@LikeMarsh]

his beloved but doesnt mean his actions were right, as much as i loved Joel, i think the fact his bad doings caught up with him is realistic, didnt want Joel wearing plot armour this game and im glad he wasnt

[@supermonkeyape007]

@@LikeMarsh whether his actions were right or wrong is irrelevant to joel being a "beloved" character. he certainly was, he was the main character of the first game. that statement "Joel isn't a beloved character" is just wrong. its like saying kratos isn't a beloved character cause he killed a lot of people. Also, in the world of The Last of Us, everybody has done bad shit and killed several people. none of these people are good lol.

[@samuelabbottchannel]

srx1 precicesly. If you played the first game to completion then to you, Joel is unequivocally a beloved character.

[@youfirst6611]

srx1 But by your notion of saying whether his actions are right or wrong is irrelevant means that his actions can be left up to interpretation by anyone in real life and characters in the game. Sure from our angle we can sympathize because we “were” him in the game and we kind of understand his motivations. It’s like Stockholm syndromes since were stuck with our captor. Let’s not forget that he’s also done shady shit in the 25 years prior to when TLOU 1 starts. But from the context of the people who live in this world Joel is an asshole who doomed humanity and killed their loved ones. It didn’t surprise me one bit that Joel would get killed because that’s what he deserved. The reason people didn’t want Joel to die is because “They” didn’t want to die. It’s like being killed in the Matrix. You may not agree with how it was handled in the game but that doesn’t dismiss the antagonist justification for it. No one in this world gets a grand death, no final speech, last goodbye or blaze of glory death. The closest to that was Tess in the first game and she got gunned down immediately. It just is what it is that in this world. But everyone is entitled to their own opinion.