The Moral Insult of Racial Equity | Glenn Loury & John McWhorter | The Glenn Show

[@Renwa82]

This podcast is criminally underrated and overlooked. Glen and John bring a high quality to the subject matters they discuss.

[@DAWN001]

10:47 equity is now part of the “newspeak” (read 1984). To avoid confusion, I now only use “equal opportunity” versus “equal outcome” to make sure what I am talking about is not misunderstood. 30:36 equal dignity, equal standing. This is what we truly need.

[@filmjazz]

Said it before, will say it again: Glenn's ability to steel man the arguments of the other side is unparalleled. Great discussion!

[@firstnamelastname9181]

his use of cognitive empathy is truly one of his best gifts

[@Say_When]

Second to none... He's fooled me multiple times.... He'll go Stillman on John and It is remarkable how identical the languages. How difficult to logic is to the best that I've heard of their side which is Say much... That is the sign of a true intellectual, the ability to self-critique and to pick up the other side's argument and to present them best case... To prove their point but to make your argument better

[@filmjazz]

@@Say_When Sometimes he even argues the other side's positions more concisely than the people who are actually on the other side of the argument!

[@adammontgomery5532]

Exactly right! It speaks so much to his eagerness to understand, and to not assume his own assumptions are superior. It also tends to bring out the best in his co-host.

[@Say_When]

@@filmjazz Yes... It is a remarkable skill... developed over decades... ... I can't wait to read his autobiography... We're going to get so much insight into... not what he has built up himself as his persona and character.... But what the storms of life have removed as chaff from his individuality his integrity his character.... You don't get to the point where you give the other side that much benefit for the doubt... Unless you Have a well. A deep well of humility... Gratitude... Patience.. not patience as if it's a finite resource.. patience as if it's a constant. It's always there...

[@AnswerSack]

"Equity" (as currently conceptualized and being pushed in our society) strikes at the heart of the American ethos. Equality of opportunity is one of the foundational concepts on which American democracy has been built. Democracy is about participation, but under the equity framework the participation of those who oppose equity is dismissed out of hand when the person is white. Blacks that do not buy the equity scam may well be the only people who can save the country, and so I hope and pray that my fellow Americans who are black will continue to speak out, and in growing numbers.

[@truthseeker8844]

I’m a black man who is an “Uncle Tom” and I’ve “lost” my black card on so many occasions. I don’t buy into the narratives that most blacks believe in today and that has made me a bit of an outcast. I agree- only black people can right this ship. I have hope because I’m seeing more and more black people have their eyes opened to this madness- thanks in large part to Thomas Sowell. While I don’t have an large following or platform, I will do what I can to spread the word.

[@py_a_thon]

I may catch flak if I keep saying this, yet the truth is I have personally already remixed the idea. DEI. Diversity of skills and experience. Excess of Opportunity. Inclusion of All. That is my opinion. I am neither politician nor a king. I am just a nerd.

[@rdalge]

What’s your understanding of equity as currently conceptualized and pushed? Like, an honest take, not a political caricature.

[@hinteregions]

@@truthseeker8844 I think I can only agree, only wish we [putatively] white people could help in some real way, probably by not interfering in silly unhelpful, self-serving ways. What is happening now, that I will lump in altogether by just calling it 'woke,' is just the worst: could we possibly have arrived at something more harmful and inane? Glenn Loury and Christopher Hitchens debated reparations and this you have to see, both for Glenn at his almighty thundering best and for what I think might be the only time Christopher a little cowed. Ultimately it seems sad that these two men were not in some 'design collaboration' rather than the dubious thing 'adversarial debate' as after all they weren't really much in disagreement.

[@Swatta637]

@@py_a_thon haha, that's definitely a better acronym meaning than the one going on now. The inclusion for all, though. Mm, I don't know. Philosophically I run into conundrums with over emphasizing inclusivity or exclusivity. I think as a society we've just gone too far on the 'acceptance/inclusion' side instead of facing what seems to be reality in that for something to exist, it must include and exclude certain things.

[@FrogInPot]

I love Johns polite snobby mannerisms, in a good way, because he's genuinely a very intelligent guy, a quality academic and rightfully is confident in his skin. Keep fighting against the dogma you guys and thank you

[@chrisb8932]

Me too. At first many years ago it rubbed me the wrong way, but now, as precise, intelligent and incisive as it may be, the vulnerability and genuineness makes his "polite snobby mannerisms" as you called them not at all arrogant or self-righteous. In fact, though I'm straight, it is sort of even cute! :)

[@abcdeshole]

The professor is an excellent role model.

[@k.k.9011]

Yes! Keep working to keep blacks down. The KKK loves you.🤗

[@AndyJarman]

I hope you don't mean "Uppity"!! ... ; ).

[@larrykiehl2457]

@Once Again I can see how an ignorant perspective might position him that way--not being able to detect nuances of meaning and expression--but I want to think that's not where you're coming from. And since I don't know for sure, please take a moment and make yourself more even more obvious.

[@bertrandrussell894]

I wake up every Tuesday looking forward to Glenns offerings. The more so when i know John is making a visit. Thanks guys.

[@ondolite3789]

The mind boggles!! And not in a gud way.

[@JohnSmith-hs1hn]

The daily dose of cooning.

[@jonnygoldstein678]

​@@ondolite3789 😊lll

[@filmjazz]

@@ondolite3789 I always look forward to checking the replies under a Glenn video and seeing your incoherent, empty, and meaningless jabber!

[@ondolite3789]

@filmjazz And I look forward to yoo looking forward! Thx for this kind tribute.

[@bobwhite420]

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal". --Aristotle

[@CMatthewHawkins]

This is one of the best episodes of the Glenn Show. It deals with several tropes many of us are faced with and offers clear and coherent ways to respond. Great Show.

[@hinteregions]

Strong agreement. Did you see the one recently with Sylvester Gates? You probably did but I can't stop going on about it as it seemed to me a very big piece of the puzzle hitherto missing.

[@ondolite3789]

Doo yoo have a groin area?

[@jimwerther]

I'm still trying to deal with Glenn not knowing where Antwerp is

[@robertryan1663]

The honesty here is really refreshing. I'm an Irish Catholic who married a Jewish woman. The economic success of these 2 groups is vastly different and I believe culture explains a good part of the difference. Same issue different groups.

[@dvg4104]

There is some cultural differences, sure. But American Jews' IQs (being mostly Ashkenazim) average 109, whereas Irish seem to be in the broader white average of 100 (98 in Ireland). You might expect a difference in economic success to flow therefrom.

[@robertryan1663]

Completely agree on the IQ impact but there is so much disfunction among Irish catholics I think that contributes. Personally I'm happy to have two Jewish children and yes they are smart.

[@brentkuecker3432]

To your question at min 22:10, one piece of evidence to support how John can “know” what he is asserting was pointed out by Thomas Sowel… that the test scores of the black children growing up in Europe post WW II, born from black people who stayed there after the war, did not score on average lower than the white kids. Sowell attributes it to the lack of red-neck cultural influence on the kids in Europe, and the fact that the expectations of the kids was by the teachers was the same. Thank you Glen and John for having these talks 🙏🏼 love your show and your style.

[@shok24199]

Glenn Loury is the one person whom I'd _want_ to put words in my mouth, because whatever he came up with would inevitably be far more eloquent than what I'd originally said.

[@williamtaylor5193]

This is one of the best conversations these two have had, which is saying something.

[@khemingw]

You're right Glenn, if this podcast is any indication of John's performance on the Bill Maher show then he was absolutely masterful.

[@dragonore2009]

I mentioned this before, but I went to university to get a bachelors of science degree in Computer Science. Now the path to that degree of course involves computer classes, such programming, networking, operating systems, algorithms, etc.., but it also the curriculum requires you take a course in physics, calculus courses, discreet mathematics and other sciences and math courses. Now I'm not the brightest person, I struggled in those courses, but dedicated allot of time to studying, signed up to see math tutors on the campus available to all students and occasionally would see the teacher if I had a question on the course work. I say all that to say this, I put in the effort to get the degree. Now in all of those classes, I rarely saw native born black students in the class. I also rarely saw native born black students in the math tutor labs. I did see overseas black students, ones from Kenya another from Nigeria and places like that. So, maybe it is indeed a culture thing to explain why I didn't see many American black students in those courses.

[@tanks1945]

Bingo. I experienced the same in the higher math course in community college and at a four year university the latter I worked at the engineering library. The number of Black Americans in majoring in engineering I could count on both hands and I wouldn't reach ten.

[@JohnFrance-ns5ve]

Lol how many black people did you have at your school to begin with? That’s a better question lol this is a safe space for pale faces I see

[@gwenjackson8583]

Listening to these two men is an absolute joy. I always learn so much from both of their perspectives. Thank you for continuing to make these conversations available for people like me to learn from!

[@wtwn]

What a treat to get to listen to you guys for free!

[@Metaphix]

I've always wondered if it was insulting. Seems like equity is so condescending like when you let your little brother win in the video game so he doesn't cry.

[@chadmoodybto4620]

These guys need to be way more famous

[@py_a_thon]

20:56 A master of linguistics and Professor at Columbia University employing one of my favorite forms of the english language. The exclamation point in the middle of a fucking (!) awesome sentence. Awesome.

[@horseluv7315]

Equity is equal outcomes. That is not a good thing and not possible as everyone is different. Equality is equal opportunities.

[@sarahs6475]

That's culture. When u grow up being told that ur an uncle Tom or sellout if u love school instead of clothes, bling or everything else prominent in the ghetto u will unfortunately repeat the cycle unless u see the importance of education and investment. understand that u being black doesn't come with a way of life. If HAVING SOUL is what u r aiming for then learn how to have soul in a way that benefits urself and society. Well said guys.

[@ondolite3789]

This is rubbish 🗑. As a blaq genius I was respected by blaqs and obstructed by whytes from day one. Yoo R repeating the silli myths that have sustained yor laziness. Whyte intelligence is a myth which is being rapidly exposed.

[@ondolite3789]

You cannot acquire soul. Whytes crave this soul. Yoo R as ridiculous as Lousy and McWorthless.

[@mitchpeter5718]

@@ondolite3789 I’m Tyrone!! Go away!! The adults are talking!! Don’t you have some safe space to go relax at??

[@ondolite3789]

@Mitch Peter Poor stuff here, fella. I am 56 and VERY experienced.

[@ondolite3789]

@Mitch Peter The post does not relate to real life and is veri insulting. I hav a rite to refute this nonsense.

[@MrEtc31265]

Great show gentlemen. I was raised in a red neck environment where the tv was the center of the universe. At 18, I removed myself from that environment, entered the Army and then 4 years of college. I worked in a research environment for 30 years. And I continue to try to improve myself every day. There is no doubt that the changes I made in my environment helped shape me for a better future. I am sure that if books, reading and learning had been the center of my universe early in life that I would have a higher IQ. The hard work continues.

[@stringX90]

Such a candid conversation between two great intellectuals, thanks for sharing

[@py_a_thon]

I have said something similar before. This podcast is like getting an ivy league education in linguistics and sociology, without the piece of paper. Add some maths, and game theory and formal economics? And you already understand the world more than you perhaps want to. As the sociologists and psychologists would maybe say: you see through the matrix, the hyperreal and the simulacrum. And in the process, hopefully you find your Self.

[@williamjmccartan8879]

Thank you both John and Glenn, and yes John knocked it out of the park on Realtime, wormy was such a perfect word to insinuate at the time. Peace

[@whippetshenanigans8704]

In the 1980's, Dr. Kuwanza Kunjufu (his lecture: "To Be Popular or To Be Smart" is available on KZbin) reported that the number of hours each U.S. ethnic group studied for the SAT/wk was enumerated as follows ( as of 1988): Asians - 12 hrs a week Whites - 8 hrs/ week Blacks - 5 hrs/wk while we watch more television than any other US ethnic group. I tested this theory on one of my nephews. He had a 4.0 GPA BUT - like many high GPA native born AA students - took the SAT at the beginning of his 11th grade yr and scored in the low 900s due to minimal prep. I presented the above statistics to him and challenged him to take a prep class and to practice by taking each round of 9 practice tests in his Prep manual a minimum of 3 times under real conditions for 12 weeks prior to taking the test a second time. His results: He increased his score from the low 900s to a 1350. Earned Bill/Mel. Gates scholarship and graduated from a top 20 university. What's the moral here? John and Glen are absolutely right. It's downright insulting that standards should be lowered for us.

[@mikem668]

I've been investigating Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue. There was a time when classical European composers and black musicians were interested in a each other's music and learned from it. Rhapsody in Blue is based on a blues scale. In 1924, Gershwin didn't have the skill to orchestrate it. It was orchestrated by Grofé. And yet Gershwin improvised part of it. Later he made piano rolls of the full score, playing both the solo piano and orchestra parts. It's not jazz, but it's jazz-influenced. More in its first recording than in its later ones or the versions for symphony orchestra instead of jazz band. Gershwin was a member of a Russian Jewish immigrant family. And yet his popular songs provided much material later used by jazz. Music seems to be the field that's the least racist. And where levels of excellence are fairly self-evident. It may be apocryphal, but Charlie Parker had to pass a test. With the great jazz musicians of Kansas City. His first time out he flunked. The drummer threw a cymbal at him. He went home, studied, and didn't fail again.

[@dachurchofeppie850]

21:00 - Preach it John! You are solidly on point. Not a pleasant thing to hear, an hideously unpleasant thing to say, think, and leverage for political gain. It is grotesque. Individuals of all groups have that "born dumb" thing, which simply means they have a different skill set. They should be encouraged to develop and build that skillset not given a spot to fill a box in an incompatible field for Equity's sake. Thank you fellas for your work. I appreciate both of you. Peace~

[@hopelessatusernames]

Part of me wants all this to be over, so we can all spend more time on positive things that interest us. But another part doesn't want to do without these conversations - you raise the bar. Thank you.

[@kenyafromcali]

I had the same thought today. Makes you momentarily sympathize with the grifters on the far left. Smh

[@BartdeBoisblanc]

I suspect these two will be having these, conversation, a while longer. This ideology will not go away soon. I will look forward to hearing more from them.

[@artiefischel2579]

The problem with the cartoon with the short kid, the fence and the box is that you've made the short kid dependent on the box. Not only that, without the box the short kid is forced to look around for an alternate solution, perhaps a better solution like a gap in the fence or a gate left ajar. And maybe the real prize is in the experience of looking for alternate solutions which can be applied to more valuable problems than watching the game. All in all that's a very costly box, so costly it makes me question the "well meaning" aspect of it.

[@eugenioguzman7449]

Why do you assume the box was given to the short kid. Why not assume the short kid went and obtained those boxes for the purpose of propping himself up. When you recognize your shortcomings, you try to work around them, compensate, to obtain the outcome you want to achieve.

[@artiefischel2579]

@@eugenioguzman7449 Because the whole point of the story is an analogy for welfare, generally.

[@kkrenken895]

Interesting. So supplying the box may lead to learned helplessness.

[@gwenjackson8583]

@@eugenioguzman7449 It would be awesome if the kid found the box himself. But in that analogy the box WAS given to the child. That is the whole point…to defend government mandates of preferential treatment and lowered standards based on the idea that certain groups require that to perform at the same level as other groups and to achieve equal outcomes. It is meant to represent the mechanisms of forced equity…preferential hiring, preferential admission to schools, lowering standards to enable equal outcomes.

[@Beatit19]

Very well reasoned analogy

[@proverbsgal]

I restore brain cells watching The Glenn Show. 😁 The best discussion between two very intelligent blk man that is becoming an anomaly these days Keep up the great podcast 🙏

[@tupacalypse88]

Great show again guys. Hope everyone's having a wonderful day

[@mjm5081]

You too 😃

[@b0rb543]

I've always kind of just assumed that equity initiatives were a good thing - Until I started attending community college. 😂 They threw me straight into precalc when I never spent a day in high school. 😂 When seeking assistance on how to build a much needed algebra foundation, the math department told me that high school level courses were legislated out of existence & wished me luck. 😂 How are we giving disadvantaged students greater access to STEM by outlawing algebra? Skipping us ahead does nothing but set us back. The added condescension of counselors insisting that I don't need algebra as if they know better about my educational needs than I am is the delightful cherry on top. 😂 While I still intend to complete my degree, I will have to take a few semesters off just to improvise a high school education for myself. Vast majority of people in my situation will be locked out of higher education - Some of us actually want to learn, rather than faking knowledge long enough for an expensive slip of paper.

[@Beatit19]

Incredible conversation. Listening to these 2 is mesmerizing; the topic so important and hard to discuss, but this is what one envisions when one thinks of intelligent, open, sincere conversation. No intention to manipulate, influence, or disparage, but two individuals conversing in the pursuit of truth.

[@Geej9519]

Thank you for talking about the box for the short ones … makes me sick every time I see it 😆

[@cristinaegas]

Thank you Glenn and John, you are so courage..you Nevers been manipulated..your lecture is brillant John, so much Comun Sence. Thank you!!

[@richardjohnston-bell476]

I have found myself persuaded by Thomas Sowell's arguments about the influence on culture on IQ. Seems John has the same line of thinking

[@cockoffgewgle4993]

There's also the influence of IQ on culture. Which is much stronger and more demonstrable.

[@richardjohnston-bell476]

@@cockoffgewgle4993 measured at a group level? Evidence?

[@rki7068]

Nailed the "soft racism of low expectations" as I have heard it phrased

[@robertwilber1909]

and accommodation for low performance

[@traditionalsoldier3639]

Basically it's treating black people as intellectual inferiors and babies.

[@Freethinker632]

Exactly! Classical music doesn’t need to change to fit anyone’s agenda. It is amazing in itself

[@susanguzzo4941]

It is always so enlightening to listen to these intellectual dudes debating. Absolute brilliance.

[@garygreen1782]

Glenn and John's discussions are always so interesting and fruitful because everything is on the table. Both sides of the argument are examined without rancour, which is lacking in most debating although that has it's place.

[@KateSimon-zb7ei]

john has to be my favorite liberal, i love honest discussions. It is funny thing is the more honest the analysis the more conservative it leans.

[@somedude1324]

Two great thinkers.

[@ElizabethDohertyThomas]

Just finished that Frasier book on the Black Middle Class. Fascinating stuff!

[@acollins2295]

I agree with Prof McWhorter - good, better, best are comparatives we use everyday, embedded in the grammar - it’s how people think about everything - everyone does it from cars to the climate, without exception. But we have to censor the powerful ‘better’, ‘best’ impulse to accommodate equity. Can’t last.

[@charleswhite2117]

I’m glad to see that you are getting some some sponsors ! However, I feel your like the one white guy in the NBA.

[@SvenErik_Lindstrom3]

The last 15 minutes of this conversation is pure gold. Like John, I just don't understand, why it is harder and harder for people to admit that some things are more complex and harder to grasp than others, but that this does not imply that there weren't room for them all in this thing we call life.

[@TrillEverything]

Exactly! We made room for dumb black with slavery. We gave them free food & free housing! When we freed them from slavery we created ghettos for them during Jim Crow and segregation and negroes seemed happy in their lower-end simpleton world. I truly see no need to employ them anywhere outside of janitorial work and the service industry, where they seem to do well. So correct, what's all the fuss? It's not like us whites have a plan to place them in ovens! Truthfully, even with these two, If you take Glen & John out of their protected northern liberal institutions, I doubt they'd get tenured at colleges where DEI isn't practiced as a norm like Brown & Columbia. Compared to white scholars, even they'd agree their intelligence is not as high as their white colleagues. John has never even taken one Calculus class in his entire life. Clearly he was an affirmative action hire.

[@stuartperry8141]

The problem is you use complexity as better

[@briane173]

"Standards are relative?" The consummate oxymoron. The only motivation behind relativism is so the people pushing it can never be held accountable for not measuring up to the standard.

[@mmyers4259]

This discussion made me recall Thomas Wilkins - currently principal conductor of the Hollywood Bowl Symphony . He was Associate Conductor of the Richmond Symhony years ago.

[@josuecallejero9864]

The conversation takes a wonderful turn at 38:33. I've been noticing this phenomenon that I've been calling artistic apartheid, and Glenn and John start to unravel elements of it here.

[@rosgill6]

I was into classical a few years before I found hip hop and I was still only 12 when that happened and I appreciate John's take on music separation. It is not that hard to go to two different sections of the music store to be musically satisfied. Sections are a good thing...at the music store

[@DrProgNerd]

The point missed by so many who preach 'equity' is: Before you can lift someone up, you have to believe that you are above them to begin with.

[@franckemmanuel8886]

Equity =Lower Standards. Well Said Guys.

[@fineartbymattphilleo]

New to this show. 2nd episode. I like how candid these guys are. John admits he failed on TV. And of course, intelligent, well-spoken people.

[@michaelhiggins2562]

You guys are amazing! I'm still waiting with baited breath for Glenn's book.

[@garywdarr]

Excellent chat, gentleman! Thank you, and keep up the good work.

[@cdred71]

Great discussion. The only thing I had an issue with was Mr. McWhorter's take about the guy on the plane. Did the guy on the plane have on earbuds? I probably would have appeared the same way as the guy on the plane but would be listening to Audible instead of reading a Kindle. Sometimes your perception of a person's idleness might not be the actual situation. I personally absorb information better by listening instead of visual.

[@prycelessly]

Another great conversation that stimulates thought. Thank you!

[@novascheller5957]

Love McWhorter’s point on equity being a “dumbing down” AfroAmerican intelligence and capacity. His anger is palpable and I so agree with him. Love his forthrightness!

[@ondolite3789]

African Americans have to be portrayed as dumb in America's disgusting war on blaqs. Yoo are equally disgusting.

[@screenmonkey]

Equality of opportunity would be to increase funding of education and after school programs with funnels to various schools to match the current ability of the student to allow more people to get the correct and managable levels of education that can lead to social economic development of communities. Bring in more career and skill development opportunities.

[@ondolite3789]

@@screenmonkey Equality of opportunity would be the end of whyte America.

[@zulubeatsprince]

​@@ondolite3789 goofy

[@dennismetzler1876]

Glenn Loury is the best devil's advocate I have ever heard. Most people never even try but he is so good at steel-manning the other person's position. Go Glenn!

[@jimmcguy5511]

Children from different economic circumstances are capable of going to school and trying their best. That doesn't create an equal world but it's a good start. It's not happening now.

[@majchicken8031]

I've been listening to your discussions for some tie now, and I've enjoyed your talks very much. So, Thank You for furthering the discussion of how we move forward as a country!

[@thaumaston7]

Let’s get real: a poor black kid growing up in ghetto does not have the same starting point as the child of African immigrants who came here on work visas. The wealthier kid will also grow up with more stability, study resources, nutrition, guidance, tutoring, prep courses for standardized tests, better school, teachers, mentors, skill level of classmates, connection to job opportunities, ect. How are you guys reaching out to help these poor kids? We need some way of improving access for people of these backgrounds! There is a growing wealth and achievement gap. Cultural factors are one factor, but so is the legacy of segregation which only ended 50 years ago. On the other hand, I agree we should frame these concerns within common humanity and liberal order - not illiberal philosophies rooted in postmodernism like CRT. CRT wants to descontruct all discourse around power, complain constantly about white privilege, discourage blacks from recognizing opportunity, keep blacks from participating in sciences and humanities under normal values of western liberalism that they see as constructed by dead white elites, deny empiricism because it is supposedly constructed to maintain racial hierarchy, and overthrow the liberal order. And I also believe we should not leave poor white, Latino, and other kids out of the picture either.

[@mjl22]

I directed a medical school clinical clerkship at the University of Minnesota Medical School. I recall when the vice dean stated to an assembly of everyone who was directing the clinical rotations and stating as fact, "Standardized tests are racist, and we are going to do away with them." I was astounded by the implication that black, hispanic, and indigenous students were some how genetically incapable at performing at the same level as white, south/east asian students. I tried to raise the objection that we are rather uncovering down stream effects rather than true genetic differences and too assert otherwise seems incredibly racist. There was no appetite to dissent. In my experience you are correct that there is a deep sense of urgency that we need to make the changes NOW. Any fallout from changing/lowering standards will be overcome by the improvement in cultural understanding and the workforce reflecting the population to a greater degree. What I don't think many people have thought about is that east/south asians are incredibly over represented within medicine when you look at the demographics of Minnesota in particular. It will be interesting to see how this splinters from a specific focus on POC to BIPOC mentality, likely splintering the activism further.

[@bunEmom]

Rural students are needed in med schools to fill a pipeline of MDs who will want to practice in rural areas. However, "need" should not trump merit. I studied alongside a group of med students who came in thru a rural pathway program (Nebr); all performed well. The upstream (merit) affects the downstream (results). Furthermore, if these rural students hadn't been selected on merit & had performed poorly as a group, there would've been resentment from fellow students. Having the baseline intelligence necessary to complete an MD, JD, Pharm D, etc. is essential, but not enough. The other essential component is ambition / discipline / effort. We can look up to high performers with curiosity & respect (how can I become more like them??) or with resentment & jealousy. What matters most in medicine is the best care for the patient, not the ego or feelings of the provider. You are 100% correct about the NOW. I've been taking the passive approach, but had a reawakening after viewing the proceedings of Stanford's "Academic Freedom Conference" (4-5 Nov 2022). I highly recommend it! kzbin.info/aero/PLQy2zhWqTFZ5Thzz1tE8dhWWTRUTQzaIZ

[@cockoffgewgle4993]

I think Africans in the UK are doing better than whites educationally. But they're highly selected for IQ, wealth and culture. And likely benefit from forms of positive discrimination along the way. Africa has an average IQ of around 73. It is what it is.

[@mjm5081]

Thank you gentlemen. If representation is important, then logically it follows that it is also important to acknowledge and address when representation becomes overrepresentation. For if someone is overrepresented, then someone else is underrepresented.

[@burnt_owl]

What's a good alternative to standardized test for measuring a persons aptitude or mastery of a subject?

[@Courier_Eris]

33:22 prove it! Everyone else has to prove it, every other race competes for what they get, but many many people in black American culture, esp the "leaders" just scream racism when they don't try, don't get what they want, or get called out for bad behavior. That's what's keeping black Americans down.

[@allyourbase888]

Thank you good men of 🇺🇸. My heart swells and fills when I listen to your voices. 🙏🏾❤️

[@Ramiiam]

17:00. John's case for equity is Sowell's "cosmic justice."

[@onepartyroule]

@26:15 I noticed I felt a lot of emotional resistance to what John was say here, but at the same time I recognise a lot of truth in it, in the sense that parental example can go a long way. I grew up working class, didn't apply myself in school (because I wasnt pushed to and had some other personal issues that absorbed too much of my attention), BUT I am intellectually curious, and somewhat of an autodidact. I believe this is largely due to the influence of my dad, who was also working class and a blue collar worker, but a voracious reader and avid documentary watcher. I can't be certain, but i'm almost certain that he made the crucial difference.

[@ntsikelelonjiva5593]

So true bro new vehicles are trashier... great 👍

[@tag5104]

I do not always agree with Glenn, but I so enjoy the back and forth. Every show is different and thought-provoking.

[@raymondswenson1268]

I love Professor McWhorter books and courses for The Great Courses. He is right on about the unspoken assumption behind Affirmative action that eliminates objective tests from college admissions. We have gotten rid of racial segregation in public schools for 50 years, so a high school graduate should have received the same education as white students and Asian students. The notion that a minority student has not been educated to pass the same tests means that the public schools have FAILED to educate many minority students. We should be fixing K-12 education so that every kid has the same mental skills. The fact is that the Black students who get the highest scores on national tests are recent immigrants or children of immigrants from Black nations like Bermuda or Africa. The Asian immigrants to America were farmers and fishermen and low paid laborers. Their children and grandchildren excelled in education because their poorly educated parents believed in self discipline and taking advantage of educational opportunities. A culture among many American Blacks has sadly devalued education and effort to gain education. One of the exceptions is among Blacks who have military careers. The US armed forces incessantly trains its people, and gives them many opportunities to advance to Bachelor Degrees and Master Degrees. They sent me to law school and then for an advanced law degree. The military brings university instructors to military bases across the US and to bases overseas. It allows officers with graduate degrees to work as adjunct instructors for their fellow servicemembers. It pays for soldiers to attend local colleges, and awards scholarships for full time college studies. It arranges for enlisted members to earn college credit for the training given through military schools, such as a year of nursing school. They offer numerous scholarships for students willing to enroll in ROTC at college, in addition to the highly competitive service academies. And veteran education benefits fund education for former servicemembers. Members of minority groups can advance themselves because of those many opportunities, and that is a major reason for the high levels of Black and Hispanic participation in the armed forces. To a large extent, military service is a family tradition.

[@explrr22]

Equity might require that you make sure that a step up box is available for short people... It shouldn't require that you take down the fence. Equity might require that you make sure that poor sighted people get vision correction, or even braille or other means of acquiring knowledge and experience more accessible to those with perfect vision..... It shouldn't' require you do away with tests of visual perception or knowledge. There's a more reasonable application of providing increased equity, that doesn't destroy measures of achievement.

[@papie5151]

John its great to hear you speak. If only I could be that articulate. Both of you remind me of me of James Baldwin.

[@jtavegia5845]

Thanks for taking on the tough subjects and making sense of all of it.

[@zackerythomas3675]

👍👍👍👌 I very much appreciated this conversation.

[@AndyJarman]

Representation When "representing" someone by reducing their fundamental qualities to just their skin tone, one is assuming everyone of the same skin tone has the same tastes and values. When I fail to see European faces in a jazz band I don't feel ostracised. I don't go to watch music performed as propaganda for an ideology.

[@Freethinker632]

It’s absolutely Culture. Please have a conversation with Thomas Sowell while we’re still blessed to have him with us. He’s brilliant and would have made a great President! He obviously had more important things to do, like write amazing factual books. Who would even need college if they read his writings from Basic Economics to White Liberals and black rednecks! God bless him with longevity plus.

[@gj9933]

I love to listen to classical/symphonic music especially when working. It is good for concentration.

[@davidmeloche3563]

It's criminal that there are C-level reactors/game streamers on here with more followers than this brilliant man and his channel.

[@Mercy-v9e6m]

You two 'hit it out of the park'.

[@americanaforever6725]

As typically happens, the champions of “equity” self congratulate themselves as their authoritarian “equal outcomes” dictates inflict horrendous damage mostly upon the very people they claim to care about. Improving performance is left aside while, perversely, it’s the most critical factor that needs remediation. 😔

[@inFAMOUSBlastshards]

@25:00 that guy on the airplane sounds incredibly based.

[@sifridbassoon]

the orchestra I play (bassoon) in, has recently played both Price and a couple of Still symphonies. I was unfamiliar with all of these pieces, and loved playing them. However I don't want to play one of them every season. The idea of exposure to new works is an honorable one, and I'm trying to research music from other ethnicities (hispanic, asian....) Oh, and we had to drop the Overture to T and I because one of our Jewish violinists found it triggering. (sigh...)

[@Moyzesh.mp3]

My question for the music issue is, do you need to bring anyone in that doesn’t like it or want to be brought in? All kinds of music don’t have everyone liking it, people like what they like

[@Mark-hc8ek]

I have to say regarding John's anecdote about the black guy on the airplane staring into space for 7 hours, that's me. I do nothing on flights except maybe watch the flight path. Flying is the one time I can turn off my brain and relax like perhaps nature intended. I'm a white guy who loves to read and study, but on planes I'm happily vegetable dip.

[@Poecilia1963]

Me too (white woman). I generally sort of zen out, looking out the window. Thinking, but not doing.

[@MichaelASchultz]

In all the years I've been listening to JMW (I'm a huge fan), Ive never heard him miss worse than this. Really a lame claim/point/observation.

[@Poecilia1963]

@@MichaelASchultz Yes, though he did add a lot of qualifiers. One thing I like about their conversations is that they *are* a conversation and not a lecture - thinking out loud, in real time, so you're bound to get it wrong sometimes, like anyone else.

[@afuzzycreature8387]

which is why he said that he was probably out over the edge too much but he took that to think of other situations where we know this does happen. People without much interest in things.

[@Beatit19]

@@MichaelASchultz I also thought his take on it was rather weak, as I thought of the turning one’s brain off need and possibility in this case. I personally do not behave like this - my brain is always going, needing something to do, unless I’m sleeping (and even this great need that is sleep often suffers because I find it hard to “turn it off”, which is quite terrible). I swear I even felt a bit envious of the guy of this anecdote that he was able to remain so “vegetable-like” indeed and maybe just “be” for a few hours. That is what went through my mind listening to John. However I give him the benefit of the doubt as he did use multiple qualifiers: he is obviously aware of his limited knowledge here. But I can respect that he openly shared a personal thought/assumption he made about a situation which could not be that far off in theory. I can respect his humanity and his candidness.

[@DaboooogA]

Great podcast as always, thanks.

[@xqp5503]

I am Hispanic (I came to this country at age of 28) my husband is black (smart and hardworking by the way) and We really felt that this equity thing is pejorative and an insult, it’s like somebody is telling you that we are very dumb that we can’t take care of us😏… ✅ I immigrated here with just clothes in my luggage, some money, and literally with nothing else, BUT this country gave me the opportunities (NOT FREE MONEY) that my own country denied me. However in the beginning, and with zero work experience here in the States, I worked cleaning, then in a Restaurant and a Factory (currently I am in REAL STATE and own some little properties) BUT I observed something very interesting in some Americans (different colors) that I met over there during those years… ✅I always wondered WHY IF they were born in this country, having all their family and friends here, having all their paperwork in place, and being fluent in English, WHY they were working per years in the same job I was doing being just a new immigrant… and unfortunately, short after I realized why… unfortunately, I received a lot of criticism from this people because I was the only person that always ask for more hours to work, I always went to work doesn’t matter what, besides I was also doing another jobs on the side (I was single with no kids, but it didn’t matter to me, I just wanted to save money and I knew I needed to work) ✅Unfortunately the criticism I received always was the same: “Why you work more, you are going to lose the Government benefits or so and so, you are going to lose help on this…. Or you are making look us bad…” And coincidentally they were always complaining about many things, feeling victims about everything, like if the Government has the obligation of take care of us in every aspect of our lifes🧐🧐🧐… Until now, most of the people that told me this kind of things, they are still working there… and unfortunately they don’t have the eagernesses to get out from there. ✳️THIS IS MY POINT: I came from Latinoamérica being an adult, and I don’t like paternalistic Goverments, because I have learned BY EXPERIENCE that when a Political Party or Politician tell you… “poor of you… you are a Victim… let me take care of you”… that in Translation means: Bigger Government, which means more “Institutions” that hire more friends of Politicians, more legislature, more taxes, and less freedoms. I ran away from that, and because of it, I recognize it and I don’t like it. Keep doing the god job my friend🙌🏼 we need opportunities, yes and we actually have them here in this country, and as an outsider myself I must say, the opportunities are out there, but the people need to look for them, nobody it’s going to knock your door to offer you the opportunities you are not looking for. This equity thing always was an insult to me, and a false act of kindness and pity, but unfortunately a lot of people bite it and believe in it. Keep doing what you are doing, I respect your work💪🏼👏👏👏👏🙏 PS: New Subscriber here, and I am gonna share this.

[@Brian-os9qj]

Thx Glenn N John

[@Bardweiser]

I always enjoy Glenn and John's discussions. Re: Equity/Equality... The best description I've heard is along the lines of "equality is the push for equal opportunity, equity is the push for equal outcomes".

[@davidr9876]

That picture of equity with the short kid standing on a box has a major problem. Height is an immutable characteristic but in practice equity corrects for lack of hardwork and effort. And it only corrects for those shortcomings if you are born the right color.

[@Bruhaha9]

I just watched that appearance with Campbell and Carlin on Maher and you were great, John! I don’t know if you just thought you didn’t speak enough, but no problem. And when you did, it was great.

[@mikegray8776]

Damn, that was a GOOD one!! Both gents were sharp and happy and bubbling - and right on top of their observational game. I enjoyed every thought and every considered judgment. Thanks, chaps - so much uncommon sense, but so thoroughly entertaining.

[@nycsym]

In recent decades there has been quite a bit of diversity and innovation in classical (art) music. Chinese composers such as Tan Dun and Chen Yi, or the Argentinian composer Osvaldo Golijov, or the South Korean composer Unsuk Chen, or the Puerto Rican composer Roberto Sierra and African-American composers Anthony Davis, Tania Leon and Terence Blanchard have made serious contributions to the classical scene. They often incorporate elements of their particular culture into their works --- Peking opera, Jazz, Latin folk music, e.g.

[@teddylovesit]

13:38 wow, this is EXACTLY what it is.

[@0ddsman]

This show is why John's a GREAT "follow" on Twitter. (You're both "that smart"!)

[@srkzfan]

Kinda prefer john’s real-life practical perspective, and acceptance of alternative (often opposing) views even while respecting his good friend (and popular society at large). I so agree with how we aren’t welcome to speak clearly, honestly, and plainly about the real issues at hand. Thank you!

[@MrValentineMusic]

I fucking love these guys. I'm gonna petition, busy schedules notwithstanding, a weekly upload

[@northwards2218]

Gentlemen, as always an interesting discussion. While I understand the focus of these conversations is a juxtaposition to the excesses of progressivism, I would love to hear more about the strengths of my black countrymen. Episodes that praise their true strengths and contributions may also be effective in blunting leftist excesses. Let them try to take on the strengths! Also, joined Substack… looking forward to it.

[@jwf2125]

There’s a podcast called the invisible men, which is about that. Very enlightening and uplifting.

[@ondolite3789]

The focus of these conversations is to exonerate whytes and ridicule the idea that they might not be angels.

[@northwards2218]

No one is an angel…. As to exoneration…. We are living with the residue of terrible crimes. There are still victims, but time has claimed the perpetrators. All the best to you.

[@northwards2218]

Hello, btw…. I didn’t recognize you at first (sorry). Hope all is well.

[@ondolite3789]

@@northwards2218 Yoo have a much calmer spirit than myself.

[@Bidimus1]

Equity means picking winners and losers