The Problems with Jo Martin's Doctor being a Pre-Hartnell Incarnation

We've still got a lot of questions about the Jo Martin Doctor. And we may well have some answers soon. But before we get them I've got concerns that I kind of want to get on the record.
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#doctorwho

[@ClassActJack]

The thing that bothers me a lot about the idea of pre-Hartnell regenerations is that it ignores what happened only a couple seasons ago. Twice Upon A Time is all about Hartnell being afraid to regenerate because he's never done it before and he's worried about who he might become. The idea that he's regenerated before takes a lot of weight out of that, even if his memory of it was wiped.

[@oliverasensio9429]

Another reason to hate the timeless child reveal.

[@JackassJunior627]

YES! Someone finally said it!

[@shahani6037]

Yes!!!! I thought Twelve regenerating parallel to First in Twice Upon A Time was so well done. And then they retconned it with all these previous incarnations. Getting sick of it. If they wanted a Time Lord whose first incarnation was a Black woman, why can't they just create an entirely new character and make them relate to First Doctor smh

[@alicemae9652]

Consistent and frequent uploads? Constant doctor who content? Well explained opinions that are so clear people can't launch stupid misunderstood arguments at you but still allows for open conversation? How the hell did I only find this channel in the last week?? I'm obsessed. You're Fantastic!!

[@Ben-vf5gk]

Once you attend the Council you often find yourself continuing to attend the Council... even when you should be doing something else like working or sleeping.

[@rickynuckles5454]

Hell I found it 2 days ago lol I've watch 7 videos. In one night lol

[@Scroteydada]

Its gonna be years until I work out how to stop people from inferring that I want to end the world

[@puddlel1ama327]

@@Ben-vf5gk Sleep? hahahahahahaha. I haven't slept in weeks. /s

[@maurinet2291]

Yeah, welcome! I was researching the Master for a piece of fan fic because I didn't know anything about Classic Masters. I found his "Rank the Masters" video and that was all it took.

[@nathamiell]

Honestly, it would simply be disrespectful to William Hartnell. That's reason enough for this to be a bad idea.

[@kanebunce3791]

Not to mention completely going against Matt Smith's regeneration speech about how all the people you are before informing the people you will become in the future. That is two doctors being directly disrespected.

[@cathalmckibben7176]

What if she’s Susan would explain not recognising 13 as she last saw the doctor when he was the eighth doctor (canon big finish)

[@desperatemohammedantheworl5833]

Ruth Doctor is the Timeless Child, a non-Timelord pre-Hartnell Doctor. Chibnall's going to go all Lungbarrow on us and not only break the canon but also piss off a lot of fans.

[@josephiajanke9850]

"What about Hartnell's PENIS!?!?" Still not working

[@Payne2view]

The only thing to be "gained" is a smug power trip for Chibnall.

[@puddlel1ama327]

First time?

[@nico2605]

I completely agree with you there. There's nothing being added and it takes away from us being on a journey with this specific character throughout their life over the course of almost 57 years of history. Adding other versions into the mix we don't know just to shock us is not adding anything. With the War Doctor there was that trauma there and the Doctor knew about him and he had a purpose. In this case it would just be for shock value and nothing else

[@Newt.--.Jaeden]

It's the same reason I don't like the concept of The War Doctor. The Late John Hurt is what made me fall in love with it, but as a concept I'd prefer Paul McGann in the 50th

[@RichardM-kv4uu]

@@Newt.--.Jaeden We'd all have preferred either Paul McGann or Chris Ecclestone instead of the War Doctor, but John Hurt was great, and the idea kind of made sense in the end.

[@Cabolt44]

That's also the issue with a character and show centred around "travelling in the fourth dimension." Consistency isn't guaranteed, and each show runner could have the bright idea to retcon well established lore for the sake of convenience. However I'm prescribed to the idea that the 'Ruth' Doctor is from the original 'unaltered' timeline, pre-Timeless Child debarcle. It also fits well with what the Master said "everything we are...is a lie" and also fits with the small comment by Ruth "you really don't." Well either this or Season 6B shenanigans.

[@antonycornell6284]

@@Newt.--.Jaeden that would have made a lot more sense. The only thing making less sense would have been 9 turning up (he has so obviously only just regenerated in Rose)

[@n.s4122]

I love the First Doctor and I don`t want anybody to be a Doctor before William Hartnell.

[@josephiajanke9850]

"I dont want WOMEN!" Got it

[@n.s4122]

I did not say that. I don't want anybody to before Hartnell man or woman. I love Jodie Whittaker as the 13th Doctor. Also, don't just assume stuff about people.

[@kolbayada4938]

@@josephiajanke9850 nice strawman, buddy.

[@bcheeseey]

Here's a couple more reasons Ruth can't be pre-Hartnell 1) She wouldn't have a TARDIS. We know the 1st Doctor stole the TARDIS. Bill talks to him about it in Twice Upon a Time. And even if they make it so she's before the 1st Doctor stole the TARDIS (which would make no sense because of the chameleon circuit thing.) Then they'd still have to deal with problem #2 2) She wouldn't be able to fly the TARDIS. The modern Doctors sometimes miss their targets, sure. But the first and even second Doctors had literally no control over when and where the TARDIS landed. And I do mean _literally_ . 3) She wouldn't be going by "The Doctor" at all. The first time they were called the Doctor was by Ian Chesterton. He called One "Doctor Foreman" and One responded with "Eh? Doctor who?" Ian just calls him Doctor because he has nothing else to call him. It actually takes a couple if eps for the Doctor to actually introduce themself as such. Haven't seen anyone bring this up yet even though it's one of the bigger bits of evidence EDIT: so with the information we have now it seems i was wrong. i still want answers to these questions, _chibnall_

[@HereComesPopoBawa]

Maybe it would be evidence - if causality was linear. (hint - it isn't)

[@carpedm9846]

@@HereComesPopoBawa causality may not be linear in time travel, EXCEPT, when it is. Let me explain. For simplicity sake, lets say there are 3 doctors from different time periods. The 3rd one is also nicknamed Writer, because of an inside joke. The 2nd one is not nicknamed Writer. Thus, the 1st one shouldnt call themself Writer, because if they did, the 2nd one would call themself writer as well. Everything is still "linear" but they all follow different lines thus appear non-linear from other's perspective. Another example to such phenominon. Cybermen. In the future we see them extremely powerful. Capable of turning Timelords into Cybermen and upgrading themselves on spot to go too fast for anyone to see them, or even making an "Anti cybermen" cannon useless within seconds. This is in the far future. Cybermen that were on earth during 2010(ish) have no such power. Cybermen that were on earth during 1990(ish) had no such power. From OUR perspective, it may "seem" "non-linear" because of the fact that we saw Cybermen1990 then far future Cypermen, THEN back to 2010Cybermen. But progress for Cybermen was linear. And it would be dumb if 1990 Cybermen had Super Upgrade powers while 2010 did not.

[@mickhawk911]

That’s good stuff , I didn’t even know that , thank you

[@Random-cs5om]

Brie Thompson I might be wrong, but didn’t they say the Doctor started going by the the name “Doctor” some time in the Academy. I seem to remember them saying that in The Sound of Drums.

[@bcheeseey]

​@@Random-cs5om I don't remember anyone saying anything about that in Sound of Drums, but it has been a bit since i rewatched that episode, so i wouldn't be surprised. [small rant incoming with some timeless children spoilers if people still haven't seen it yet] And ok now that we (probably?) know the truth behind the ruth!doctor i highly doubt they're going to explain why she goes by the name Doctor. I hope they'll explain the TARDIS chameleon circuit thing, but I wouldn't be that surprised if they didn't (I'd be mad, but not surprised.) The thing is that even though originally the Doctor was supposed to be called that name just after a misunderstanding by one of their first companions (he's a doctor isn't he?) that's been changed multiple times. Moffat tried to make it seem like "Doctor" was a name that they chose before leaving Gallifrey. The First Doctor even responds when Clara's echo calls him "Doctor" in Name of the Doctor, something I only just realized. And I'm sure in the expanded universe other authors have tried to come up other increasingly contradictory stories. The terms "Doctor Who" and "non-contradictory canon" don't go together very well. One of the fun things i always like to say is that you HAVE to pick and choose what's canon to you with Doctor Who because otherwise if everything is true than the Doctor is simultaneously 1) a human/humanoid with one heart [hartnell era doctor who] 2) 100% time lord [most post-troughton era doctor who] 3) half-human [the 1996 tv movie] 4) a reincarnated god [the cartmell masterplan arc in the seventh doctor novels] 5) a practically immortal being from another dimension [the timeless children] so yeah

[@omalleycaboose5937]

I don't care about the Gender of it. However I think it would be disrespectful to Hartnell to retcon him into not being the first

[@CaptRobertApril]

I always took the bit in "The Brain of Morbius" as the Doctor fighting back, and the unknown faces are actually Morbius' past incarnations.

[@Companion92]

same, but I also like the "it's the Other" theory

[@Thunderwing88]

Captain Robert April I take them as random guys the Doctor imagined just to mess with Morbius. If there were his (Morbius) previous incarnations wouldn’t he remember them?

[@CaptRobertApril]

@@Thunderwing88 It was basically a psychic tug-o'-war, first Morbius pushed the Doctor back to his first incarnation, then the Doctor pushed back and we saw Morbius' past incarnations. Simple, no?

[@danielengfer]

I always thought the other faces in The Brain of Morbius were from Morbius, but the writer of that episode said they were meant to be previous incarnations of the Doctor. When The Deadly Assassin was written, which stated 12 regenerations for Time Lords, the show runner (Phillip Hinchcliff) decided to ignore the extra faces in Brain of Morbius, and so they were never canonized as faces of the Doctor. There’s no good narrative reason to do what Chibs is doing. He’s retconning the Doctor’s past for temporary shock and a ratings boost, but the damage he’s causing to the show is permanent.

[@Gokira666]

@@danielengfer None of this has been confirmed though. They could take Ruth being the Doctor in many different directions; this is just one possibility.

[@PadraigG8]

I like you're metric of judging retcons by what we gain vs what we lose.

[@ToonamiT0M]

Another huge problem with a retcon that huge is it's disrespectful to everyone who worked on the show previously. It is the most recent person saying that their version is the right version and the fifty years that came before are wrong. It's ego driven arrogance that spits in the face of the fans and all the creators who laid the groundwork.

[@josephiajanke9850]

"Having WOMEN in Doctor Who is DISRESPECTFUL." Meet Verity Lambert

[@ToonamiT0M]

@@josephiajanke9850 Funny how you quoted something I clearly didn't say, nor even imply. It baffles me as to why you are lying about what I said in my post. Nowhere did I ever come close to implying that having women is disrespectful. That's because I don't believe that. I was talking about the established continuity of fifty years. Yet, here we are, with you making up stuff out of whole cloth, just so you can justify your own, unfounded, preconception about me. And for what? What do you gain from this? I'm truly curious. If you respond, will you acknowledge that your representation of me is not true and unfair, paving the way for you to grow as a person, or will you double down and make up more stuff to justify your closes minded response? I truly hope it's the former.

[@johndent8813]

Just on a personal level, as someone who watched the first show live way back when and has followed the show ever since, I'll be very very angry if Ruth is pre-Hartnell.....

[@lwaves]

I can't quite go back as far as you, I started with Tom Baker's early years, but yeah, I will also be pissed if they make her pre-Hartnell. I'll go with it but happy I will not be. For me though, the very fact that her TARDIS is a police box shows that it won't happen.

[@greghawkins59]

@@lwaves yeah I'm perfectly fine with the showrunners fucking up in their own time, so long as they don't try to shit on the shows entire history.

[@Ruddigore]

Ditto. Hey Chibnal, don't steal my childhood.

[@robinschicha4712]

Nobody can steal your childhood. It’s a Fantasy World, after all!

[@HereComesPopoBawa]

LOL fat lot of good that tantrum will do you.

[@Diveplanwithjim]

Here’s a theory: it’s the (10th) Doctor’s Daughter. She regenerated at some point and forgot who she was, and all that she COULD remember were “the Doctor” and that her TARDIS should be a police box with the circly things inside. It would explain how she matches exactly with the Doctor - she’s a clone so she has the same DNA.

[@Seal0626]

Oh, yes, please. I've been wanting Jenny to come back since she first flew away. She even had round things on the walls.

[@shounenbat510]

That would be a good way to explain things. Doctor Who has never had continuity as one of its stronger parts (where's Susan, by the way, and why did she claim to have come up with the name TARDIS?), but Jenny would be a nice callback as well as a good way to explain some things away.

[@jamesbailey9936]

Jenny never saw the tardis inside or even noticed the outside

[@willimations277]

As a genuine Hartnell fan (my favourite classic Doctor and 2nd favourite overall), I wouldn't be mad because "he's no longer first". I would be mad because Hartnell had a beautiful character arc of learning to appreciate people and growing softer over time. Over the course of season 2, you see him slowly becoming warmer in so many series firsts and it's great stuff to watch. But if he's no longer the first what happens to the importance, not of the Doctor, but of essential companions and stories to his growth? Ian and Barbara, who taught him to respect humans Susan, who taught him to let go Vicki, who taught him to have compassion for humans Steven, who challenged him on his beliefs Sara and Katarina, the first companions to die What happens to the significance of The Aztecs, The Dalek Invasion of Earth, The Rescue, The Chase, The Massacre and now, I suppose, The War Games? If she's pre-Hartnell...no mercy

[@originaluddite]

Except she seems to have little feeling or even morality so that almost seems grounds to put her before but only if she _stays_ that way for as long as we see her.

[@thefragrantwookiee]

The whole 'everything you think you know about this character is wrong' trope always drives me mad. It basically amounts to writers running out of ideas for what to do with the character so they decide to try to change the character themselves instead, maybe grabbing some publicity by doing so at the same time. If you can't think of something interesting and new to write about a millennia-old alien who can travel across all of space and time without having to rewrite the character themselves, then you are a bad writer. I'll be watching you Chibnall...

[@kevinmerchant2478]

I also think "The everything you think you know is wrong" doesn't really work for an "unknown regeneration" why would the Master get SO upset by a season 6b Doctor?

[@tonk82]

That's the reason i didn't like episode 1 that much.... it was going really well, but that "Everything you know is a lie" killed it for me xD its such a cliché and a weak way to set up a series arc...

[@dalewatts1475]

All totally valid opinions that I respect. Tho I love the idea of everything we thought we knew being wrong.

[@cathygrandstaff1957]

I like the trope when it’s done well, like in Golden Sun: The Lost Age where one of the first things that’s revealed is that everything you thought you knew about the quest from the first game was wrong. But it was also clearly planned out in advance because you could go back and replay the first Golden Sun with the twist in mind and it didn’t contradict anything. With this they clearly were just going for shock value and to troll a fan base that hasn’t necessarily liked Chibnall‘s era.

[@Thomasmemoryscentral]

Has anyone seen MrTardisreviews attempt defending this because I certainly can't imagine sticking up for something that could destroy the fan base more so than it already is already.

[@armyandy]

I can't wait for your review of "The Timeless Children" because boy do i have my feelings on it

[@JonathonPrieston]

My biggest problem with her being possibly being Pre-Hartnell, is that it just sort of feels disrespectful to the man who started this whole thing. For 60 years William Hartnell has always been the very first incarnation of The Doctor, and for them to just say "Nah JK" seems incredibly disrespectful

[@angrybrony]

it's so fanficy.

[@JonathonPrieston]

@@angrybrony yeah, it reads like bad Fan-Fiction

[@benw4409]

It's also why I dislike the Morbius and Lungbarrow theories of pre-Hartnell Doctors. I've ALWAYS hated the idea.

[@tonk82]

It feels like bad fanfiction (there's good FF, better written than what we have now), with Chibnall saying "Now... this is a doctor i've created... and she is called Ruth... and she was one of the 13 previous incarnation to hartnell, am i clever of what?".

[@Scroteydada]

Theres gonna be a Doctor more insufferable than the Muppet at the beginning of the classic show?

[@davidbwoo]

"And so help me God, if they turn this into, 'I dOn'T eVeN kNoW wHo I aM aNyMo--' YES YOU DO!!! You've BEEN here! You've been LIVING! You KNOW who you are!!" YES! This exactly! Well said!

[@WastedPo]

The best compliment I can give you is that I feel consistently compelled to watch all of your Doctor Who videos despite having only watched about three episodes of Who in my life.

[@samuelbarber4154]

The problem with the 6B theory, in the first episode of the Pertwee era, we see him stumbling out of the second Doctor's TARDIS, in the second Doctor's clothes. Also, the Time-Lords stole 2's knowledge of time travel, and yet she knows how to work the TARDIS.

[@callumg3330]

Samuel Barber they could of stolen their memory of this incarnation because the Ruth doctor could of worked for them since the Ruth doctor mentions an employer that she cant get way from

[@historymysteries4134]

Will general fans/NuWho fans care about costuming from that far back?

[@BlueSparxLPs]

Him being in 2's clothes isn't an issue. It's easily explained by just saying that the Time Lords had him return in those same clothes so that the Doctor wouldn't ever know that he'd had a face between his 2nd and 3rd.

[@kaicreech7336]

If the Time Lords were keeping the Doctor from learning about this regeneration, then they could have dressed her in her old outfit. And honestly, if they did 6b and just ignored the costume problem I wouldn't care. They could have regenerated her during 6b and then after they recaptured her, they could have taken her memory and sent her to earth.

[@kevinmerchant2478]

@@kaicreech7336 The Doctor's clothes have regenerated before. Patrick Troughton's clothes were not Hartnell's outfit from the Tenth Planet in The Power of the Daleks, Peter Davison's shoes weren't Tom Bakers boots

[@keelanbarron928]

"I don't know what else to call her" i know someone who thought to call her "the ruthless doctor" if that helps.

[@radic888]

I love how since this channel began, both you and it have changed so much, yet you’ve kept the original logo and musical theme.

[@nilsnoske6460]

The whole series is about alternate dimensions and alternate timelines. It is in nearly every episode. I am pretty sure, that is what this doctor is about, too.

[@shadowjt2]

I love your indepth analysis of Doctor Who and how you really explore each and every aspect.

[@fredfeltz7229]

This type of video is why I follow you. You are awesome thanks for your thoughts.

[@adorkability]

I hope they aren't retconning. I wasn't happy with the conclusion of Clara's whole "Impossible Girl" storyline and how Moffat linked her to saving every past incarnation of The Doctor, essentially saying that she was the most important character ever in the show. And then if that wasn't enough, he then had her talk The Doctor out of using The Moment and made her travel back to Gallifrey to give the child version of The Doctor a pep talk from under the bed. Retconning The Doctor's past before Hartnell would be so much worse than that. Finger's crossed that that isn't what Chibs is playing at here.

[@danielengfer]

adorkability You are soooo right! What Chibs the Idiot is doing now is so much more destructive to the show.

[@Cabolt44]

Nah, that whole Clara saga will still be the worst story arc of Doctor Who, even if they go the pre-Hartnell route. Far more likely they're either going the Season 6B route, or an unaltered timeline/memory wipe/memory restore route.

[@Seal0626]

If Moffat was in charge now, we could safely bet that we would never see Ruth again. By which of course I mean he'd introduce her the same way, let us get fascinated by her and spin theories about her, then just never bring her back or ever mention her again except maybe in several series' time as a throwaway reference to remind us of the fact that we never got any sort of conclusion.

[@GermanLeftist]

Do people seriously forget that the entire "Clara saved every past incarnation of the Doctor" never happened because of Time of the Doctor? The Doctor never died on Trenzalore, there was no open timestream, the history was rewritten. Only those present still remember that it happened because they were involved. That's it.

[@cja5612]

@@GermanLeftist Somebody is paying attention. The Time Lords erased that storyline by saving the Doctor. That's sad bcoz that means his goodbye to River was also eradicated

[@madelinegreenwood4810]

Glad KZbin decided to put this in my recommended on its one-year anniversary lol

[@t.c.soares2254]

So well presented!

[@avouleance]

For me Occam's razor would be that she is the 14th doctor and it's her memory of her own past that's faulty instead of the show's representation of events. Which is what leads me to my guess/ speculation that this doctor has had past incarnattions removed from her memory/ personality the same way her own identity was. So the memory restoration in episode 5 is incomplete and this leads to a fun fetch quest where each doctor is in a different space jar and Ruth slowly learns who she is by collecting them.

[@timrob12]

Sounds like a video game.

[@timrob12]

@Flashpointer I rather have the future Doctor be an unknown.

[@avouleance]

@Flashpointer old style tardis can be accounted for is she's been backdated and thinks she's doctor 2

[@edwardphilibin3151]

@Flashpointer Could have just reset the "desktop theme" to "Platinum." We know the TARDIS stores all the old versions from "The Doctor's Wife." (And production-wise, we know the reason it's the Hartnell console room is because they have it in storage from "Twice Upon A Time," and they wanted to use a set that both Jodie's Doctor and we the viewers would immediately recognize as The TARDIS.)

[@keelanbarron928]

...how is that Occam's razor? That's a very BIG assumption! (Also, why would they do that if there's nothing new to add? It would just be these episodes again and it would be boring.)

[@CroneoRegion]

she's aware of the sonic she just didn't need it

[@lwaves]

I simply took it as a dig at the current run of Doctors all relying on it a lot, unlike some of the past Doctors.

[@HandofOmega]

@@lwaves I guess it's up to interpretation. When I saw ppl were arguing over it, I went back and rewatched the scene, and it *clearly* says to me, the way it's worded, that she really does not know what "that cute little tube" IS (note also the confused look on her face when 13 names it). But time will tell...it always does!

[@anthonyjones6870]

@@HandofOmega it's a surprised reaction but not surprise due to not knowing of the sonic, but more likely mockingly surprised because she thinks that using the sonic is unnecessary

[@Cabolt44]

@@HandofOmega I've rewatched the scene several times, and Ruth is clearly mocking 13, with "needing" the sonic. She's also a whole lot like 3, in that she's very action oriented. 13 seems meek in comparison (even though she does know Venusian Aikido).

[@HandofOmega]

@@Cabolt44 Ok, took me a minute to get to OnDemand to rewatch, but now that I have...I *absolutely* believe she didn't know what the sonic was! Now, this is not me being stubborn, I freely change my opinion with new data all the time, and I acknowledge I could end up wrong here. But her dismissive comment about the "cute little gizmo" is delivered in such a way, it's clearly a "sour grapes" reaction from someone used to being the smartest person in the room, being confronted with a superior advantage they didn't know about. Well, we'll see soon enough...

[@nicnaknoc]

Can I just say that your look in this video is 100% on point and feels like you are "finally" HOME. you just look so at ease and comfortable in your skin and look

[@percymurphy3113]

My personal theory is that Chibnall is going down a sort of Cartmel Masterplan route, and Jo Martin's Doctor isn't The Doctor as we know her today, but Chibnalls version of The Other. Our Doctor is a rebirth of Jo's Doctor, therefore Hartnell is still the first Doctor in some ways, everything we know still stands, he was just loomed from where Jo's Doctor dies. The explanation for the police box could be that this is from very early in Time Lord society, the Chameleon circuit wasnt a thing yet, the Tardis blends with a simple perception filter. The Doctor (and therefore) the audience saw a police box because that's what she would be expected to see when looking at her Tardis.

[@tonk82]

But... making The Other a traveling Doctor, that calls herself that, with the same wording... its a bit of a stretch, isn't it? xD

[@SirMeowsAlot89]

meguminton well didn’t Matt Smiths Doctor say the name a Time Lord takes is a promise? So maybe they kept the name the Doctor after they were giving the “Hartnell regeneration cycle” and lost their memory of being “the Other”... or had pre regeneration cycles still always calling themself the Doctor to help guide them.

[@percymurphy3113]

@@tonk82 it is in a way, but the Cartmel Masterplan isn't canon yet, so I can see Chibs putting his own spin on it. He is using Cartmels ideas as a baseline and bringing his own vision to it too. Maybe that's making The Other more obviously The Doctor. That name was originally chosen at the beginning because she wanted to help people, Hartnells Doctor chose it again for that same reason, but it's also an echo of who he once was. Even though he doesn't remember it, that life is still somewhere within him.

[@manzanaproductions]

Completely on board with Cartmel Plan.

[@Companion92]

Cool idea

[@MrPJHudson]

Best example I can think of is "The Principal and the Pauper" from the Simpsons, when they just rewrote (and I believe later regretted) a beloved characters backstory.

[@di7770]

My thinking is that she is from alternative Timeline where the Gallifreyans weren't the Time lords, possibly the Kasaavin from Spyfall were. Rassilon took their power but not content with having the power, the Gallifreyan elite use the timeless children to alter history so the Gallifreyans were always the Timelords, The Doctor escaped, presumably landing in 1963 to make the Tardis a police box at some point, eventually becoming a human to escape the Timelords. History changes since she's "metaphorically" dead she's unaffected and a new doctor is born or loomed and history continues as we know it. The work of the Kasaavin, trapped outside of time, and the Master caused elements of the original Timeline to slip through like the Lady working with Judoon.

[@yamum7208]

I hope she is an alternate doctor instead of a past reincarnation

[@firegirl26]

i like that. i heard that ruth is not from alternative timeline per Chibs saying so

[@liamheneghan4977]

I've said it once, I'll say it again. I love the frame of your glasses! Such an awesome pattern 😍

[@austinwoods466]

Welcome back. Reality is harsh. Great video.

[@puddlel1ama327]

I'm rooting for Ruth to secretly be the Rani, who's fooled most of the universe into thinking she's the Doctor.

[@CouncilofGeeks]

It’s never the Rani.

[@puddlel1ama327]

@@CouncilofGeeks juSt bECauSe yOuR riGhT, doESN't mAke yOU rIghT!1!1!1!1!

[@grumpyoldman3458]

I was think maybe she was the Rani too.

[@blackphoenix77]

Susan's has a better chance of returning to the show than the Rani does.

[@puddlel1ama327]

@@blackphoenix77 True, but it could be a great reveal, and mean that Series 13 could have Team TARDIS racing around time, piecing together Timeless Child with the Master AND the Rani both on their tail, causing havoc and teaming up with other classic villains like the Great Intelligence.

[@LokiEris]

I have a few stupid theories: 1. The Doctor we know is actually not the doctor, but a time lord who was implanted with the doctor's memories. 2. Same, but Jo Martin's Doctor is the implanted one. 3. "Everything you know is wrong"; There are two Gallifreys in the universe, so each time lord has a doppelganger of sorts. 4. This is an alternate universe situation, but it was stated not to be to try to throw off the fans. 5. This is an alternate universe situation, but in such a way that when they went to Pete's World, they only came back to a universe that is 99.9% the original Doctor Who universe, so there are inconsistencies. 6. Something something something, when the Doctor almost died and regenerated into the War Doctor, he actually had some sort of meta-crisis like event where he regenerated into two separate people.

[@desperatemohammedantheworl5833]

Leaks point to Ruth Doctor being the Timeless Child, a non-Timelord pre-Hartnell Doctor.

[@lotemnahshony-spitz9532]

From what we've been shown, it makes no narrative sense that Martin will turn out to be a pre-Hartnell doctor. I don't know why people keep dueling on this possibility. Also, I seriously doubt that Chibnall is bold enough to do it (which is a good thing; nobody should be this bold). My personal guess is that it would turn out to be some kind of split timleine thing, and she'll be alternative 12/13. 14 is also reasonable, and I could also entertain the season 6b possibility, but this really seems like a stretch (it would would however explain why Ruth would be desmissive towards the sonic screwdriver, as the second doctor's one was pretty much *just* a screwdriver)

[@cathygrandstaff1957]

We keep dwelling on it because a lot of us suspect Chibnall’s enough of a hack to go there.

[@charlottem7758]

Eh, it might have been a bold idea once, but now... The idea's been raised enough that I think it would just be lazy. End of the day, I think the reason fans are so worried about this is they still don't trust Chibnall enough. As such even though it makes no sense, we just can't rule it out.

[@MrCyru24]

My guest it was the Sims Master with the paradox Tradis that started the ball rolling on the alternative time line

[@williamcorpening6132]

My prevailing theory is that Chibnall tossed it in without a single clue how he was going to explain it. When he tries we will ALL be disappointed.

[@jhibbitt2896]

considering no explanation of where the master was in his timeline and Chibnall has always been a shit dr who writer, I think this is horribly likely. this is the first time that a notion has come about that I feel would be so damaging I would stop watching and I hate the idea of that happening

[@lwaves]

@jhibbitt2 The show has often not established where exactly the Master is in their timeline or which regen they are on. Some of it is based on logical assumption, not confirmed fact.

[@jhibbitt2896]

@@lwaves the reason I care so much in this case is because of missy's arc. I don't mind if the master becomes the Dr's enemy again if the story justifies his motives, but I don't want to see that arc get ignored and have the show act like it never happened

[@jayanderson9375]

Hope not, but could be

[@Monty-in-gumboots]

I have that thought to or maybe even leave this for some future showrunner to explain.

[@bgbe7119]

Yep, totally agree with you and nervous about where this is going. Hard, if not impossible, to pull off in the best of hands (if it's going where we think it is), but in Chibbs' hands? Duck and cover.

[@AngelaH2222]

mmmm as River says ,""The Doctor lies"" , I'm thinking Ruth is the Next Doctor,,, who had reasons not to let the current Doctor in on it ,, as, ,,,, Spoilers ....,.....

[@desperatemohammedantheworl5833]

Leaks say no. It's a lot worse than that. Chibnall's doing a Lungbarrow on us. Fuck Chibnall. At least Lungbarrow was a New Adventure novel and as such, despite actually being good, could be quietly dropped from canon.

[@angrybrony]

feels like they wanna cram in all this "first" for the doctor: first female doctor and first black doctor but don't want to wait for this doctor to have her time.

[@teabus1619]

Excellent video, I absolutely agree with all the points you discussed here. Personally I hope the Ruth doctor turns out to be some parallel timeline doctor. The most interesting take would be if she happens to be a future doctor, idk maybe the 14th doctor who had her mind wiped or something, I think that would be really cool if they go that route.

[@odenwalt]

When the 13th doctor started digging up the tardis, it was the same color as the 13th doctor's tardis. The police public call box sign was the same as the 13th doctor's as well.

[@johnsensebe3153]

The retcon would only be back to the early '80s, where stories like "The Five Doctors" and "Mawdryn's Undead" established that the Hartnell incarnation was first. But that's still easily far enough back to be a problem.

[@baldboygrunt]

I would disagree that it was "established". Calling anything in classic Who established is kind of impossible. There really was very little of anything that could be called continuity considering how many times the show contradicted itself, even on major points. And as I said elsewhere, during Hartnell's run it was never so much as implied that he was the first, we all just assumed it because he was the first we saw.

[@johnsensebe3153]

@@baldboygrunt My point was that before the '80s, it was never really implied that there weren't incarnations before Hartnell. The only thing viewers had to go on was "The Brain of Morbius" which implied the contrary.

[@baldboygrunt]

@@johnsensebe3153 Right, I just don't think that it even qualifies as a retcon per se considering that the show contradicted itself so many times, even between those stories and now. How can you retcon a canon that doesn't really exist, y'know?

[@vanillamc1]

Kyle Bourchert In my mind, canon isn’t even the issue. It’s disrespectful to Hartnell, and the creators of this show. He’d being tearing up the foundation the rest of the show stands on.

[@Antifag1977]

So true! Now that it is after the fact we can see how spot on this video was. Personally I am loving the direction they are taking the show and character but as soon as the Timeless Child reveal was made the first thing I (and my BF) did was burst out laughing because we know all over the world there were people going ballistic. But after that the questions started popping up in my head - the whole police box issue, clara in the Doctor's time stream etc.

[@charlottem7758]

I'm positive this won't be resolved until at least end of next season. And even though I don't think it was the original plan, I wouldn't be surprised if they decide the Ruthless Doctor is the 14th Doctor. Anything else, just seems like a problematic meta-narrative - We get the first non-white doctor and she: * Doesn't get to be a proper "numbered" doctor * Doesn't get to be the protagonist of the show * She gets a few guest star appearances, instead of being the main character. Maybe I'm wrong, but the only way I see around this is to make her a future incarnation.

[@thomaskirkness-little5809]

I swear the creators heard someone mention how the Doctor used to be mysterious and they took that to mean they should erase 60 years of backstory.

[@robertgairey5266]

Interesting points. I understand that Kim Stanley Robinson's novel The Years of Rice and Salt is an alternative history that diverges in the 14th century, speculating what would have happened to the world if the whole of the Europeam population had been wiped out by the Black Death... but you are right, it is very rare to diverge that far back.

[@FlamingoSundew]

You know you should make a doctor who related video! Edit: just the scarf reminds me and the little jodie character in the back

[@Thomas_Fan2024]

April 27th 2020 Ah Memories

[@ChrispyContents]

One theory I made up that I personally think would be cool is that Ruth is the 14th (technically 16th) Doctor and she comes along after Jodie. I'm thinking that perhaps Jodie could fall back in time to before the Timeless Child happened (also meaning this is set long before the Time War) and she becomes apart of the reason that it does and that whatever it is is so bad that even the Doctor is convinced its better to keep it secret so the founding fathers of Gallifrey whipe the knowledge from every time Lords mind, including the Doctor. Perhaps they force her to regenerate then make her forget everything about her life as Jodie and make her believe that she is the Doctor that came after Capaldi. But then the Time Lords send an assassin after her because they feel a mind whipe is not good enough (so they send Gat) and the Doctor is forced to use the chameleon circuit. I think this could explain everything (such as why they don't recognise each other and why Gat doesn't know about the Time War (although it seems that Ruth doesn't either but that was neither confirmed or denied)) except for why she dismisses the sonic. An episode like this may not even happen for a few years and maybe never will but that's just a theory of mine, I don't think it's right but oh well 😂

[@andrewbowman4611]

I remember reading somewhere - Doctor Who Magazine, probably - that Robert Holmes fully intended the Morbius Doctors to be pre-Hartnell; so far, so widely understood. However, it's thought that the 12 regeneration rule is supposed to suggest that the so-called Fourth Doctor was actually the twelfth/penultimate incarnation (8 plus 4 equalling 12). Holmes then followed this idea through in The Caves of Androzani, which he wrote. The lines "Is this death?" and "Might regenerate - feels different this time" perhaps suggesting that the Doctor is unsure as to whether he's reached his limitation. Obviously, it's later confirmed that the Doctor has reached the end of his cycle in the Time of the Doctor, but for a while it was possibly an indication of intent. It certainly gave us ideas like The Other, and Looms, and suchlike. Saying that, I still think the Fugitive Doctor is between 2 & 3, and the previously-believed Stolen Earth cliffhanger ending doesn't actually count. I've never been a big fan of that, in any case.

[@Cabolt44]

Being between 2 and 3 will probably be the most acceptable for the fandom. Also retcons out the meta crisis regen, but no regen situation (I mean how can you regenerate without changing your face?). Also gives some support to why 11 gave some regenration energy to River without much issue.

[@greghawkins59]

The problem with it is there's no explanation that would properly work, it's like they've had an idea and made it a reality before thinking it through.

[@HereComesPopoBawa]

It's not even remotely difficult.

[@greghawkins59]

@@HereComesPopoBawa exactly

[@ghostbomASMR]

First; your hair looks awesome. Second; Thanks for talking about it... it's an iffy topic at the moment.

[@jjk28141984]

Your video also made realize finally, on the deepest level, why this is so troubling for me. Doctor Who came into my life at an important time and helped me understand myself. It was the 11th Doctors Regeneration that sealed the deal for. "We all change, Clara, all through our lives. We gotta keep moving. And thats okay, thats good. So long as we always remember all the people that we used to be." That changed my life. And if all of a sudden, the Doctor just doesn't remember all the people he/she used to be...it really bothers me.

[@stevenpereira2140]

At this stage, I'd suggest everyone relax. We have far too few facts to start worrying about outcomes. Even at the most basic level, we only have the Jo Martin Doctor's word that she doesn't remember Whittaker's Doctor (and what's the first rule with the Doctor? The Doctor lies.). She may not immediately recognize the sonic screwdriver because it doesn't resemble any before it. Let's wait till they give us something substantive -- and then blow up in obsessive fervor. Also - a few good long term divergent history series, not to dispute your point but as exceptions to prove the rule: The Aquiliad series by S.P. Somtow (Set in a present where Rome never fell) and the Lord Darcy stories by Randall Garrett (Set in the present where Richard I didn't die, with magic thrown in).

[@HandofOmega]

Great points! My main contention with the story was why, after the action was over, and the two had some down time before returning 13 home, didn't they Mind Meld and share recent memories? They are clearly both very curious about the others, and Ruth was openly curious about what the Doc showed Gat. At the very least, 13 should have asked her what incarnation she was...But I guess that would have been TOO convenient!

[@lettucehelper]

Another good long-term divergent history novel is The Years of Rice and Salt by Kim Stanley Robinson (divergent point is the Plague wiping out nearly all of Europe; the novel spans from that point to roughly present day).

[@hotdog1214]

@Hand -of-Omega. I know what you mean, after the adrenaline rush had worn off and sat thinking about it, how come they just went their separate ways? If someone claiming to be you just turned up out of nowhere wouldn't you want a tête-à-tête and have a million questions? There was no threat from the Judoon and Gat anymore, so there was time. I know its for narrative purposes to keep up the mystery but a little frustrating from a logical point of view.

[@rinehardt6837]

Spider-Man clone reference was perfect. That storyline is one of the reasons I stopped reading comic books for probably about 10 years. Not just that but that pushed me in that way definitely. So I don't think she is pre William Hartnell but you could sticker her between the second and third that's really the only way to go I I don't think they're trying to rewrite the whole history any more than the 50th Anniversary did. Awesome video as always

[@OMGg4m3r]

Even certain things in the first doctor eps go against canon, like him building the tardis and him only having one heart and those were minor changes considering... and that was small things only a few years later, etc...

[@matygoo1644]

17:48 i like that funky beat

[@MissKashira]

Watching this after the episode aired is so awkward. I feel so bad for past you.

[@XOISHTAR]

My personal theories tend to be either it’s the metacrisis Doctor, a separate timeline Doctor, a regeneration of Jenny or another time lord like the Rani (or maybe a messed up memory version of the master pre-Jacobi) who took on the oath of the Doctor (since it was established in Name of the Doctor that choosing that name was making a promise) The idea that it’s pre-Hartnell doesn’t work within the course of the current timeline and you can use the Clara through time plot point as basis because in the montage it shows her telling Hartnell to take the tardis.

[@Cabolt44]

Maybe the Valeyard will show up, since he stayed on as The Doctor during the Time War? Wishful thinking I know...

[@andnowawordfromoursponsors4439]

The chameleon circuit actually broke the first time the audience saw him travel in it when he was trying to scare Barbara and Ian, so intent he was on scaring them he wasn’t fully paying attention, I don’t even think he intended going back in time, I could be wrong, but I think he just wanted to make it move so Ian and Barbara would be scared, run off and therefore stop questioning him about Susan.

[@RayVision3D]

I've managed to watch all of the classic Doctor Who episodes back to back (thanks to Pluto TV here in the States) and I noticed something odd. Every regeneration of the Doctor has been shown onscreen EXCEPT between the second and third Doctor. It has also been shown that the Time Lords can force regenerations. Therefore because there is a way for Jo Martin's Doctor to have existed and not have any impact on canon because she came after the Second Doctor, lived a full life, then was force regenerated into the Third Doctor. Nothing Jo Martin's Doctor did was seen because she was a fugitive following the events of the War Games storyline and having a regeneration forced upon her means she "didn't happen" and explains why the Third Doctor fell out of the Tardis rather confused, more so than usual. Just a thought.

[@shounenbat510]

Kudos for your undertaking! It took me forever, but I finally got through them all and loved every second of it.

[@danielbroome5690]

Youre entirely correct

[@kannathraymaker]

Has anyone considered the idea that “Ruth” might be Susan. I wouldn’t put it past the Time Lords to monkey with her memory and put her in another type 40. It’s also be brought up a number of times that there are three Time Lords responsible for the establishment of their entire culture: Rassilon, Omega, and trickster who is currently the Doctor. Unlike the first two the trickster isn’t immortal, but the geneloom always produces him when his current life is done. Hell, that would account for why the Doctor was granted more regenerations. If she is another iteration of the trickster, then she is indeed the Doctor! Just not the Doctor that started with Hartnell and is currently at Jodie.

[@pious83]

Alternatively, Susan (or Romana) could have adopted the moniker, when enlisted into working for the Timelords. Mention of both has always been conspicuously absent when referring to the Time War.

[@chrisrusso6541]

I think I would like it to be Susan

[@pious83]

@@chrisrusso6541 If Ruth turns out to be Susan, I think fans would be really onboard with that.

[@chrisrusso6541]

@@pious83 and Romana knows about the Sonic screwdriver

[@pious83]

@@chrisrusso6541 Indeed. Yet doesn't use one. Which would lend to the idea Ruth could be her also.

[@lachieechoecho]

I personally like the take that Ruth is a regeneration between Doctors Two and Three.

[@rjwalker1726]

My best case scenario is that our doctor fell into another universe at some point. Everything is explainable that way I think. It also fits with the glowy guys from Spy Fall being from another dimension/universe. My next best scenario is a split into alternate realities at some point. My absolute worst is the pre Hartnell doctor. I don't THINK that'll happen but the one thing that worries me is the 'Everything you know is a lie' line. However, if they are in another universe it could have been that this Master thought he was talking to his Doctor so that could be about something in that universe (but hopefully having impact on our Doctor because otherwise what's the point). Keeping my fingers crossed :/

[@lwaves]

Or that universe, at least parts of it, came into our universe. Not only the glowy guys but the Master was put into another dimension after Spyfall (the Doctor couldn't find him) and the 'gods' from last week where also from another dimension. That's several mentions of other dimensions in one series. I keep reminding people of the "Everything you know is a lie" line but it mostly gets ignored. The fact that Ruth's TARDIS is a police box shows to me that she isn't pre-Hartnell.

[@rjwalker1726]

@@lwaves Totally agree, I think either way round we have two colliding universes here. At least I hope so :/

[@lwaves]

R J Walker Yeah, I mean last week we literally had two very similar planets being pulled into each other, with the prison being the thing that stops that happening. What if the planets represent the two universes/dimensions and the Timeless Child is the thing in the middle?

[@rjwalker1726]

@@lwaves Hmmm, nice idea

[@Companion92]

same

[@unbothered78]

I'm so ready for them to blow the lore up as long as they coming up with something good.

[@gregf9160]

Apart from the Tardis never being a Police Box before Hartnell, where is Susan, his granddaughter, in all of this? It is clearly made out that Susan was originally with him all the way after leaving Gallifrey (until he kicked her out in apocalyptic London). I honestly think they're not dumb enough to go with this.

[@johndoe-dj6hg]

Well the timelord could have gave the doctor a new set of regenerations which lead to heartnell being the 1st in the cycle again and he had twelve lives before that. Or as the master told us, somewhere between the doctors 13th and final regeneration we get the valyard :) Maybe she's the start to the alternate doctor line leading to him :D

[@hiccuphufflepuff176]

I had never considered the possibility of Ruth branching off at 11's regeneration. That makes a lot of sense. Our Doctor "chose" 12's face based on Capaldi's Pompeii character, so maybe he was the anomaly and Ruth represents what the Doctor is "supposed" to be.

[@lanceuppercut3498]

Well if Chibnall (and I wouldn't put it past him) does give the middle finger to continuity with her being before Hartnell then this it will not go down well and the backlash will be severe and vicious on scale that will make the Sonic The Hedgehog debacle look like a nothing. And like them if Chibnall goes trough with this nonsense, don't care if it's a mind wipe or whatever bull crap is used, I may have to think hard if I will continue from then on watching this show I love so much. To be honest it's a struggle now with Whittaker's poor Doctor and bad episodes. .

[@danielengfer]

Lance Uppercut I agree completely.

[@Cabolt44]

The storylines for Whittaker's run has been poor, and this has contributed to the cold perception many fans have of her. In hindsight Ruth's take on the Doctor was well received, because she acted like what we expect of the Doctor. If Chibnall goes through with this his run on Doctor Who will be over, and the next showrunner will have to retcon that as some sort of feverish dream, or alternate reality situation.

[@desperatemohammedantheworl5833]

@@Cabolt44 I've wondered if Jo was actually considered for the part of 13 and Chibnall didn't have the balls to cast a black woman, who ironically it appears would have made a better Doctor than Jodie. As for who Ruth Doctor is, everything points to pre-Hartnell and the backlash from a significant percentage of fans (myself included) is going to be huge, though I'm sure on the other side of the coin we're gonna see #LOLDoctorWhoHasNoCanonButthurtFanboyManchild trending come Sunday evening.

[@marky437]

you know what they will do - it won't get mentioned again until some point when season 13 airs lol

[@almighty9539]

I think Jo Martin Doctor fits better with the season 6b theory, but I also have an idea that possibly that she is the Valeyard

[@michaeljones7465]

At the end of "The War Games", the Doctor is shown a choice of incarnations; one has a dark face.

[@scouttyra]

I like that you have started having your hair down more recently, it suits you. (And are you wearing lipstick? (You've mentioned before that people have thought you do on videos where you don't, but I think you do here) It suits you too! Nice colour.)

[@CouncilofGeeks]

For one, yes. I am.

[@scouttyra]

@@CouncilofGeeks I know I mentioned it in my original comment, but it is a nice colour that suits you.

[@petermills5052]

I don't pretend to know who the Ruth Doctor may be...but if you remember "Spyfall" and the name of the company run by Lenny Henry's character... it was VOR. This has to be an important factor as it was never explained. Let us presume it stands for Valeyard, Omega, Rassilon and that part-human Henry was working for the Timelords. Just saying that whoever the Ruth Doctor turns out to be it is all a teaser for the return of these three characters. Maybe not this season, but next...

[@edwardphilibin3151]

Ah, for the halcyon days of 2 tears ago when the "Ruth Doctor" was the biggest retcon we had to worry about.

[@derrickbracy6930]

I'm thinking that she's an alternate dimension Doctor from either the Transalor death/reverberation, or the bargain made after Zygion invasion. This way she kinda sets in motion a timeline where we get future Doctors from, and ours finds Gallifrey permanently and rewarded with a clear conscience, and possibly memory wiped.

[@petemarkey626]

I could easily agree with everything you have said. However, the line from the master that everything you know or think you know is a lie, really does mean all,bets are off.

[@ZombieWrangler_]

I heard a theory that the timelords re-wrote history because of something that happened with the timeless child and Ruth is the doctor from the original history. It could make sense because we know nothing about the timeless child or Ruth really and the doctor did say she felt as though time was swirling around her so there could be something more going on

[@mrshannonite4016]

Open theory here...those dials are a one purpose use only device, a second use you take at your own risk...the real doctor there was the companion and we saw him get killed. When they used the disk to wipe memories it affected them both. So, when Ruth pulled that lever she got some of the Doctor's memories but not all of them. This explains the Tardis and why she can't remember being Jodies Doctor and why her brainwave patterns says she IS our Doctor.

[@evo_is_confused]

Maybe what they'll do is have it so the Master figured out how to remember the pre-generations and that's his big secret. So then at the end the Doctor also remembers her pre-generations and the pre-generations then have value.

[@yonghominale8884]

After watching last night's episode, I have to agree with fandom menace. Chibnall has no idea on how to write Doctor Who. Poor Jodie Whittaker COSPLAYS the Doctor, that's why Jo Martin made such a strong impression. Her Doctor always acts confused and it feels like the situation is going over the rails until some magic with sonic screwdrivers happens. Clara acting like the Doctor was a better Doctor.

[@aliciamiro9529]

Not trying to be creepy or weird, but I wanted to say that the Tardis blue on your shirt looks really nice on you!

[@whitneymohrhauser8753]

My problem with Dr. Ruth of Jo Martin is that she is more of who Dr. Who is than Jodie Whittaker. When I felt Jodie Whittaker is more companion feel that Jo Martin gave Doctor vibe. I honestly I want to see more Ruthm

[@Traykartheswift]

I kinda wish we got Jo Martin as the main Doctor with Whittaker as the bonus mystery box Doctor

[@pigtailsboy]

I appreciate your fairness on this all. I'm not invested anymore but it's good to see those left are trying to be objective about what stories and changes are being made. I don't like much of it over a length of time. It's too modern a product and too referential and too reactive to what we're experiencing. I feel like the present viewership would not be against more primal moral challenges and a slower pace. the short serial episode structure might be out of date but there could have been a compromise on filling the seasons with more two parters. But even then when compared to how people are supposedly absorbing media now short clips of a single plot line could work. We are all watching a variety of content on youtube and other new sources. sectioned up and spread out I believe audiences would be willing to endure the old structure especially if they're able to watch them all in a whole or partial swath. I'm not going to see any of my wants realized I'm certain so I'll leave it at that.

[@theagg]

Given what just transpired in the finale, is all that stuff about the problem with a memory wipe/wipes you articulate around @14:00 going to feature in your review of episode 10. We wait.. (I can certainly see a increasing number of inconsistencies now arising across those 50 plus years of episodes given Chibnall's massive retcon tonight.)...with baited breath !

[@MegaJamesification]

I would love it if she turns out to. E between 2 and 3. Hopefully that could leave an opening for her to regenerate into 3 on screen, and have Sean Pertwee play his father.

[@mickhawk911]

It would explain the gap between the chameleon Circuit of the tardis and the sonic screwdriver

[@ericanderson7454]

I have been thinking about this one. Then I remembered something. The 11th Doctor (Matt Smith) rebooted the Universe and in doing so almost erased himself, if it wasn't for Amy Pond remembering our Doctor would stop to exist. Now follow me when the Universe rebooted so did Gallifrey. So yes they are from two separate Universes... pre reboot and after reboot. Ruth could be the current Universes first Doctor Clara fell into the Doctors Tardis Timeline... the pre re-boot universe. So we have two Gallifreys the reboot one and the old one. It makes the most sense.

[@ericanderson7454]

As far as the Police Box... somethings in time are not changeable.

[@ericanderson7454]

I also have to say with this theory she is the same place as Hartnell and after Hartnell.

[@spetsnatzlegion3366]

If they do that, everyone’s gonna rip so hard into the directors that they’re gonna have to bring in either a competent writer or a permanent bodyguard for Chibnall.

[@JustcallmeDavner]

I have a theory that Ruth is a Doctor from the rebooted Big Bang Two Pandorica universe. And the reason why there is two doctors, is because Ruth would've been any regeneration from this new rebooted universe, and Amy remembering 11 brought him into this new universe that he didn't necessarily belong in.

[@AnonymousTwoPointO]

I'm digging the series 6B theories, if Chib did one thing right, it might be this.

[@maxstone3779]

I havent heard the idea about Ruth being the Doctor's daughter. From the espiode where the two sides are cloning themselves in a war. We havent since that character in awhile, and that is technically the doctor in a sense.

[@johnkelley9687]

Very good criticism...