The REAL Difference Between Calvinistic & Non-Calvinistic Predestination w/

Dr. Leighton Flowers outlines the differences between what Calvinists believe about predestination and what Non-Calvinists believe.
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#LeightonFlowers #Calvinism #Predestination #Theology

[@wesjohnson-sg2dc]

Everytime I hear a Calvinist, I know I am listening to someone who I shouldn't..

[@fed_up_cowboy]

Agreed, I’ve tried to engage Calvinists in meaningful dialogue about their views and the responses seem rehearsed and cult-like in their inflexibility to reason.

[@wesjohnson-sg2dc]

@@fed_up_cowboy They almost remove actual Grace and put in ego..I just shut em down after initial conversations..

[@fed_up_cowboy]

@@wesjohnson-sg2dc very true, I heard a quote recently that echoes your statement: “Christianity + Narcissism = CALVINISM”

[@doulos9828]

@@fed_up_cowboy you can find narcissistic tendencies in every belief system; man is a sinful creature. That doesn't mean narcissism is part and parcel to reformed theology. The monergist believes God graciously saves men. The synergist believes God wants to save all men but not all men cooperate and so He cannot. The former is a biblical view. The latter makes the will of the Creator subordinate to the will of the creature.

[@fed_up_cowboy]

@@doulos9828 I no longer debate Calvinists online, because they misunderstand the synergistic viewpoint completely and because they can only see the Bible through the lens of TULIP and not Calvinism through the lens of Biblical scripture.

[@TheRomans9Guy]

I think the Matthew 22 parable is actually the best story for this. First God elected/chose/invited the Jews, but he also chose to invite the Gentiles. Everyone is invited. Those who humble themselves and put in the wedding garments (grace) that God provides, those are the ones who get to partake in the feast/receive eternal life.

[@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi]

💯 Absolutely! You've even answered the (hypothetical interlocutor) questions asked by Paul in Romans 9. Essentially, God chose Israel, through whom the whole World could come to Him. (Did you know the area that Jesus cleared out in the Temple area was the "Court of the Gentiles"?. Yup. God made provision in the layout of the Temple for the Gentiles to come and worship Him too) But, the Jews rejected God over and over, in many cycles or rebellion- judgement of God- repentance......rinse and repeat. But instead of finally ridding Himself of this rebellious people, He made a way, so that everyone can be saved - through Jesus. God had lemons He chose to make lemonade 😊

[@TheRomans9Guy]

@@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi I didn’t answer the interlocutor’s questions in the comments on this video, are you referring to my little book? Or something else?

[@grizz4489]

The position of some..... Participation in the wedding celebration is an earned reward through works. Eternal life is a free gift through believing in Jesus.

[@TheRomans9Guy]

@@grizz4489 Participation in the wedding feast is not earned through works. The guests did no works to be invited, the host did/does all the work.

[@grizz4489]

@@TheRomans9Guy According to the text, some who were invited ( Israel ) were not worthy. Also the man who was throw out did not have proper attire . As Rev 19 , says. The white garments are the righteous acts of the saints. As vs 14 says, many are called but few are chosen for participation in this event . Also in vs 12, the King calls the man " friend " however he was binded hand and foot. In other words he was restricted from participation in this kingdom privilege.

[@emf49]

Calvinism has so many faces. It’s frustrating. I just started listening to a Reform preacher from Louisville, Kentucky and he’s brilliant. If he didn’t state he was ‘reform’ I’d never know it. He preaches with passion and compassion for the lost. The Piper camp, however, is so locked into its ‘determinism’ that I just can’t listen. It’s really confusing.

[@dw6528]

DW: Wonderful post! And very insightful! Yes - Calvinists have a very high urgency to MARKET the product. And as adults we understand - Marketing language is not designed to TELL THE TRUTH about the product. It is designed to make the produce *APPEAR* desirable in order to induce BUY-IN. Calvinists are very aware of those aspects of the doctrine which NON-Calvinists are guaranteed to reject. Take for example - Warren (Idol Killer) who requested a debate with James White on the subject of infant damnation. James will not touch that subject with a ten-foot pole - because he knows he will have to stand before an audience and argue that Calvin's god creates new-born babies for the lake of fire. That is in fact what he believes. But he also knows that is an aspect of the doctrine which the NON-Calvinist is guaranteed to reject. So that is an aspect of the doctrine he will not advertise because doing so will produce the opposite affect.

[@Jin-n6s]

I mean just look at TULIP its nothing more than an agenda cooked to masked their core doctrine which is EDD.

[@user-im9ov9ud7m]

They stand and proclaim that everything they do is God's will. The only will they know is their own, @@emf49

[@KevinEDF]

I just wanted to thank you again for what you are doing. You have provided an understandable and humble voice to the scholars on the non calvanism side and it has helped me a lot. I never saw the character of God that calvanism portrays but rather the the love and desire for all that provisionism reinforces and I appreciate that you are getting this message out. I would encourage you to rerelease some videos on the main proof texts. I know you already have covered them but I'm sure you have some new things to say and this would make them more recent for search results. May God bless what you are doing to counter the poor picture that calvanism paints.

[@Lost-in-the-EIGHTIES]

Thank you Dr Flowers for being a faithful servant and rightly dividing the word. Your position is so refreshing and uplifting as opposed to the heavy oppression that I have felt when I was a younger Christian particularly when a Calvinist defends predestination…God is so good. I believe Calvinists are saved or at least I hope they are but the message they preach seems a bit arrogant/callused I guess and definitely hopeless. Delivered in love? Idk but I hope their eyes would be opened so they can obtain the freedom Christ paid for. Amen

[@reg7916]

Agreed in Him matters🌻

[@marce.goodnews]

Became Catholic thanks to this channel. Now I go to Society St Pius X, to the Traditional Latin Mass.

[@user-im9ov9ud7m]

How come you do not have relationship with Jesus, @@marce.goodnews .?

[@thirdplace3973]

You should say Augustinian predestination vs Pauline. Plenty of non-Calvinists still adopt Augustinian predestination which is not Pauline.

[@Buy_YT_Views_516]

I'm inspired, well done!

[@mickknight6963]

Good rundown of solid Bible, there Bros. ☝️😎

[@kevinhathaway7240]

Why is Predestination and Determinism so very central to Western Christianity? Is it really all that important? Aren't there other things, like being spiritually connected to Christ that are more important? Why so much time and energy on whether Christians have free will? Highest respect for this channel!

[@colmortimer1066]

This was a good debate, and the full video of the analysis was also great. I am not Calvinist and really side with you here, but at the same time, I have a lot of respect for Redeemed Zoomer as a bother in Christ, and even though he is Calvinist he has a lot of good theology, looks at all denominations and treats them more or less fair. I think any Chirstian can find value with his channel, even if you strongly oppose his Calvinist view or predestination.

[@dw6528]

DW: One of the things to note about Calvinists - they have an overwhelming urgency to get NON-Calvinists to find Calvinism acceptable. And they are often willing to paint FALSE pictures of the doctrine in order to achieve that goal. For the Catholic audience - the Calvinist will try to paint a picture of his doctrine he calculates the Catholic will accept. And for the Arminian audience - the Calvinist will do the same. For the Baptist audience he will do the same. Calvinists recognize there are aspects of the doctrine which are so radical the NON-Calvinist is guaranteed to reject it The Calvinist will obfuscate those aspects of the doctrine and justify doing so as being pragmatic. In those cases - it is not unusual for a NON-Calvinist to not be aware that the Calvinist is not being TRUTHFUL about the doctrine. This is because the urgency to get people to accept the doctrine over-rules everything else. This is pretty much a MARKETING strategy. The salesman does not inform the customer about any aspect of the product he calculates the customer will reject.

[@colmortimer1066]

@@dw6528 True but I find if you read the bible yourself in it's entirely, then when done read it again, and keep studying it, you are unlikely to fall for such lies and tactics. Arming yourself with knowledge and understanding of the scripture is the best defense for any false or errant teaching.

[@dw6528]

@@colmortimer1066 DW: The human mind interprets all data in accordance to internal associations. The mind interprets data in accordance to what it already holds as unquestionable truth. For example - there was a time in which people believed the sun orbits around the earth - and they held that as unquestionable truth. Those people were not going to interpret scripture in such a way as to contradict what they held as unquestionable truth. There are even people today who believe the earth is flat - and they interpret scripture to affirm that belief. The Calvinist mind is conditioned to embrace EXHAUSTIVE DIVINE DETERMINISM (EDD) as unquestionable truth. Their minds are not going to interpret anything within scripture which will contradict what their minds hold as unquestionable truth. The NON-Calvinist mind is not subject to Calvinist indoctrination influences. So his mind is not taught to see things within the text which the Calvinist mind is conditioned to see.

[@colmortimer1066]

@@dw6528 Yes that's my point though. If you are non-Calvinist, and arm yourself with knowledge of scripture, you will not accept the Calvinist influences. Though remember not all is lost. Dr. Flowers himself was once a Calvinist. So some can be reached and change their mind. I was talking to a friend just yesterday, that was saying he rejected Paul as an apostle, because he does not buy his vision of Christ, but digging into it a bit it was really the Calvinist interpretations that were causing him to stumble, because to him and I agree, that view does not fit with the teachings of Christ and the books of James and Peter. We had a good civil chat when I agreed with most his objections, but tried to show where Calvinist interpretations seemed to be his issue. He left by saying he needed to research it more. I'm sure he'll let me know how it goes...and I hope i did well enough to show the problem was not Paul, but in Calvinist ideas. This is the danger of Calvinism is, if you reject it you will pull away from the truth. I was lucky that I chose to read the bible then look for a church doctrine. One of the first I gravitated to was Redeemed Zoomer, but I had enough knowledge to reject it. I don't think my friend has read the bible, but I have urged him to, as I think it will help his understanding beyond what he's heard.

[@dw6528]

@@colmortimer1066 DW: Yes! Very well stated!

[@Alan-hw1np]

Predestinate in the Greek text is the word proorizó. Pro is our word pre (meaning before) and horizo is our word horizon. Horizon comes from horus meaning sun and zone, so horizon means sun zone. Predestinate then means to predetermine for the light. When Mary said to the angel that she "did not know a man", she used the word ginóskó, which is the same word that Paul used when he wrote "for whom he did foreknow". Therefore, God predetermined the people he knew intimately for the light so that they would conform to the likeness of Christ.

[@johnknight3529]

Here's some context; "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?" It seems to me Paul is speaking there of God having done some preparation so the very early church would have a successful "launch", so to speak. Choosing some of those elsewhere called the "remnant" of true believers in God, to be given some special attention so as to be able to get Christianity off the ground properly. That He wouldn't do that is nonsensical to me.

[@dw6528]

DW: The NON-Calvinist does not hold to a GNOSTIC conception of predestination.

[@AlexanderosD]

They give a good review of that section, thanks for sharing. It's important that we don't concede the concepts of predestination or election or sovereignty or decrees, to Calvinism. Those terms are all clearly present in a biblical view, they just don't use the Calvinist definition.

[@JesusIsLord777-lz7mg]

Are the words "adoption as sons" in Ephesians 1:5 specifying justification or glorification? ‭Ephesians 1:5 NKJV‬ [5] having predestined us to👉 adoption as sons👈 by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

[@dw6528]

@@JesusIsLord777-lz7mg DW: Waiting to wit the adoption of the body. The adoption of the body comes sometime in the future as a byproduct of justification by faith - which is what initiates the life of the believer in Christ.

[@JesusIsLord777-lz7mg]

@@dw6528 Those words are in Romans 8:23 but not in Ephesians 1:5. Try again.

[@dw6528]

@@JesusIsLord777-lz7mg DW: The N.T. writers are consistent with themselves - no matter what letter in the N.T. you are reading.

[@JesusIsLord777-lz7mg]

@@dw6528 As I said, those words that are in Romans 8:23 are not in Ephesians 1:5. There's no mention of the redemption of our bodies. Try again.

[@philipatoz]

It's really very simple as to what God predestined: He didn't predestine people's DECISIONS as to whether they freely (per how He created us) either embrace Him or permanently resist and reject Him - He left that decision up to us (which is redundantly shown across Scripture!). But what He DID predestine was that EVERYONE who wouldn't permanently resist His wooing, those with OPEN hearts and minds towards Him who embrace Jesus, He would help and guide them to to the salvation that He made possible and certain for them through Jesus on the Cross. And, of course, God has ALWAYS foreknown those who wouldn't permanently resist him, who would eventually and freely choose Him - as those are the ones Scripture clearly reveals He has always desired to (and WILL) save. GOD is the one who saves, made it all possible, for ALL who will receive Him. But we must receive and commit ourselves to Him! Those who insist God's sovereignty means that we cannot choose Him are perversely defining what God, IN HIS SOVEREIGNTY, has the right to (and DID) mercifully allow us - which is our choice whether to receive or reject Him.

[@JamesBrown-fd1nv]

The entire debate about freewill is this simple. Lucifer of his own choosing exercised his freewill to oppose God. In Isaiah 14:13,14 we learn that he aspired five times to do above what God had "set" him to do. Lucifer was perfect in wisdom, which means he clearly understood through his fearful reverence what his aspirations meant. This rebellion caused Gen 1:2, and that is why Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. We are called by God to submit our freewill and accept his will through Jesus Christ. Freewill is what makes judgement righteous.

[@doulos9828]

Has every single person throughout history had the same opportunity for salvation?

[@jaggedlines2257]

DamonNomad. I love you too, my brother In-Christ.

[@TheMirabillis]

A Question for the Non Calvinist: How do you get a desire to come to Christ if you have no desire to come to Christ ?

[@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi]

I never hear this here. But Jesus said the Spirit would convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgement. Of sin, because they believe not on Me. Part of the Gospel is proclaiming not only His death, burial and resurrection, but first, that all have sinned. It takes the Holy Spirit to convict the sinner. People don't just wake up one day and say, I think I'll try Jesus today. If there's no conviction, there's can be no true and lasting repentance. So no, the Spirit doesn't "irresistably" draw. If a man was convicted of murder, or other capital crime, at his sentencing he's going to he shaking in his prison attire, waiting to hear the sentence, (unless he is a Sociopath). The sinner stands convicted, and condemned, before a Holy God - convicted in his heart and without hope.... But the free gift of eternal life is offered. He can be pardoned of all transgressions in Jesus, if he will only receive Christ. This is the Biblical Gospel.

[@marorey-yc2qx]

His lovingkindness leads us to repentance.Heard of it?

[@TheMirabillis]

@@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi The Holy Spirit can convict People but that still does not mean a Person has a desire to come to Christ.

[@TheMirabillis]

@@marorey-yc2qx So, does God first give People a desire to come to Christ ?

[@CascadianPatriotII]

_Why would_ they, if they figure that they're still damned?

[@josephwolfe8717]

To mirrabilliss. I heard the Gospel ,and God has graciously given me the freedom to accept or reject it. Just as I have the freedom to accept or reject other things. Faith is not the gift, Christ's attoning sacrifice is along with God's grace in providing it. Faith in the grace is a choice.

[@TheMirabillis]

Where does the actual desire come from to come to Christ ?

[@TheMirabillis]

@@YuelSea-sw2rp So, are you saying that you can just automatically get a desire for anyone ?

[@TheMirabillis]

@@YuelSea-sw2rp Nothing in your last post answered the question of how a Person can get a desire for Christ ?

[@Jin-n6s]

@@TheMirabillis from our hearts

[@TheMirabillis]

​@@Jin-n6s So, you can get a desire for anyone if you just will it from your heart ?

[@lloydkennedy7433]

Calvinists are arrogant, proud and abusive to whoever has a different opinion than them. God's love, mercy and grace in the Gospel of Jesus Christ is what they should be proclaiming.

[@marorey-yc2qx]

Actually John Calvin murdered people opposed to him.

[@branver1172]

I know there are Calvinists like that. But there are *many* who are not.

[@JamesBrown-fd1nv]

Lord "willing" 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@grizz4489]

The position of some based on observation....... election in the bible is in reference to service, in service in the future Kingdom of Heaven. Also election in the bible is in reference to born-again believers or to the nation of Isreal but is never in reference to unbelievers.

[@stephenbailey9969]

Jesus' critique of the Pharisees was for their exclusionary tendencies. Calvinists can at times display the same. Christ died for all people, past and present and future. That is the grace we need to take to the world.

[@bg1029]

If I’m a calvinist, do I get to go to heaven when I die?

[@GrahameGould]

Irrelevant. Are you are Christian by the Biblical definition? Have you trusted Christ according to the scriptures, eg I Cor 15:1-4, John 1:12-13, John 3:14-21, Romans 1:16-17, Romans 5:1-2?

[@mikejones7990]

Calvinist predestination is such an insult to an omniscient, omnipotent God. They say that without that predestination, then God is not sovereign. *I* say that God is sovereign over billions of free wills.

[@lazarlazar4771]

❤❤🎉👍👍👍👍👍👌

[@djhu306]

I believe predestination is broader than what is being articulated here. An acorn is predestined to be an oak. The genetic coding for bark, leaves, growth, strength, height and reproduction are all found within the seed. The acorn may find a good sunny place to take root or it may find hard ground or it may take root in an overpopulated forest where it couldn't possibly get the nutrients it needs to reach its predestined potential. Perhaps it reaches a polluted water source and thus has its destiny cut short. In the same way, every person is created for His good pleasure with unimaginable potential. Every person is made in His image to reflect His nature. Every person is made for eternity with Him and it has ALL been afforded through the sacrifice of the unlimited Son. But not every person will surrender to the plans and potential intended towards them by our Creator. We know that the callings and giftings of God are without repentance and will never be revoked but these gifts were always intended to benefit the kingdom. Predestination is not a determination but rather the intended purpose for each creature. Shifting the predestination to God's plan for redemption is only half the argument and honestly too abstract for our reformed brothers and sisters.

[@GrahameGould]

That's not how scripture uses "predestined" and the related words. Rom_8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Eph_1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph_1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Predestination only ever applies to those in Christ. Not all humans. And the purpose is to be conformed to the image on His Son. It's not a predestination to the potential God has for all people. It's a predestination to perfection only for those in Christ.

[@djhu306]

@@GrahameGould Romans 8:29: whom did He foreknow? Did He not knit each and everyone of us together in our mothers' wombs? Would you have us believe that God does not foreknow every person? Was He surprised when Jezebel was born? Judas? Goliath? Ephesians 1:5 and 11 -are you certain that He did not intend that every one of His created humans would one day be adopted? Wouldn't that be His good pleasure or am I misunderstanding 2 Peter 3:9? Obviously, God's will is not always accomplished since we know that it is His will that NONE should perish but we also know that those who reject Him will indeed perish. If God's will always manifested in creation, He would not have been sorry that He made man, as in the account of Noah (Genesis 6) or sorry about the anointing of King Saul (1 Samuel 15:35). Please show me the scripture that expressly demonstrates that God has not predestined every human for life eternal. I am not arguing that therefore every human will inherit eternal life. I am saying that every human was created for a purpose with good works laid out in advance for each to do (Eph 2:10) but that every human is absolutely free to accept or reject God and His plans. So while they are destined, they are NOT predetermined to walk in them. Let me articulate this further. I believe that Hitler had a God-given assignment on the earth. He did NOT fulfill that work. In fact, he abandoned it altogether and worked against God's intentions for his life. Because the giftings and callings of God are without repentance (Romans 8), he still was brilliant and charismatic and used those gifts in rebellion against God. He was predestined for greatness and instead chose evil... and he did accomplish great evil. Every celebrity, thought leader, cultural icon, governor was predestined to accomplish God's will. Many rejected the call. But the all-powerful God is not thwarted by rebels and dissenters. Instead, He works ALL things for the good of those who love Him. This is distinctly different than effectually causing all things. The Greek denotes that God works in spite of evil to bring about good for those who love Him. If it was God's design, why would He need to WORK anything out?

[@GrahameGould]

@@djhu306 So you don't know the difference between knowing something and determining it. Okay. "Ephesians 1:5 and 11 -are you certain that He did not intend that every one of His created humans would one day be adopted? Wouldn't that be His good pleasure or am I misunderstanding 2 Peter 3:9? Obviously, God's will is not always accomplished since we know that it is His will that NONE should perish but we also know that those who reject Him will indeed perish." You really love to imagine I'm saying something different than what I said because you don't understand words and logic.

[@GrahameGould]

@@djhu306 And I notice you ignored almost everything I said and how I was responding to your claim. You are ignoring how GOD uses the word "predestine" and creating your own philosophy based on your reason that is looking at reality from a different perspective than what God has revealed.

[@djhu306]

@GrahameGould lol... okay, guy... glad we are resorting to solid arguments like "you don't understand logic" and "I know what God means when He says XYZ but you don't," instead of dealing with the fact that you are, in fact, imposing your own worldview on the scriptures. You are reading your preferred definition of predestined into the text.... as am I. I answered your questions by demonstrating that destined is not necessarily a fixed outcome but rather the potential and intended outcome of those whom He created. Yes... I do refuse to believe that certain figures in history were simply acting out the will of God. I reject the notion that sovereign is equivalent to meticulous determinism. I believe evil is ONLY accomplished in rejecting the will of God... not in acting in accordance with the will of God. However, God is not thwarted by the evil of men or the evil of this present darkness. He continually corrects the timeline to accomplish His good pleasure. He takes that which the enemy intended for evil and brings about the greatest good. There is nothing in scripture that says, "Predestined means this..." There is no holy glossary to which you or I can point to prove the other wrong. However, it seems inconsistent to me that God would exert complete control over creation and history and give us self-control as a fruit of the Spirit. Control and love seem incompatible to me and since God is love (according to the scriptures), then I must conclude that God has chosen to give us actual free will. Meaning every person has the capacity for great works AND great evil. The only thing that determines the outcome is whether or not we surrender to His will. Not because we are greater than God but because our great God has decreed it to be so. I hope you can at least appreciate the logic even if you don't agree with the premise. But if you wish to continue the conversation, please stick to the arguments rather than using rhetoric and ad hominem attacks. Appeal to logic and to scripture... define your terms and why you believe they best satisfy the whole of scripture. Posting a scripture with the word predestined in it is NOT moving the conversation forward unless you can then connect your preferred definition to the whole of scripture while maintaining actual coherence. Lastly, if predestination is indeed equivalent to predetermination, then we are left with the pagan notion of fate. Is that what we believe? If so, why wouldn't we just appeal to Thor and Odin? Perhaps they have a better fate for us...hmmmmmm🤔

[@bradharford6052]

Why is it so difficult believe that God predestined all of humanity that die in Adam to be made alive in Christ. That somehow before or after physical death, everyone will ultimately believe and confess Jesus Christ as Lord to the glory of the Father, according to scripture? This is consistent with an omniscient, omnipotent God that is love, light and life. This seems to me to be the ONLY scenario that fits with Almighty God, who is love. Thoughts?

[@johnknight3529]

I think that is possible, for "with God all things are possible", but I also think it is possible that some have become too egocentric (proud) to accept that they are in no position to find fault with how God has gone about raising His children, (especially themselves). For example (from Jude); "These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." And some seem to me to have great difficulty with the suffering they have experienced (or more often witnessed), being of little significance in the End. What is sometimes called "the problem of evil" weighs very heavily on their hearts and minds it seems to me. "But it really happened" they insist, unwilling to let God off the hook, so to speak, for what in the long run will amount in even the greatest sufferers, to nothing more significant than a bad dream one had as a small child, I expect. "But it really happened" they insist . .

[@bradharford6052]

@@johnknight3529 Nice to see that some people do actually think about these things. A little side note: I had to laugh out loud at your reference to Jude. What made me laugh is that in my opinion, Justin Peters is the poster boy for a cloud and well without water. Sorry, he makes me laugh any time I see him. But ignorant and blind as he is, he is still our brother. Thanks for sharing.

[@johnknight3529]

@@bradharford6052 Yer welcome. The Book says we're all born of one blood, so, that one is still our brother. Every man is still our brother. . (or sister if someone wants to get pedantic about it ; ) And while a different "poster boy" came a creepin' into my mind right on cue, I am familiar enough with your creeper to appreciate the relevance to my choice of examples. (Laugh if you can, but don't stare into those big doleful eyes too long, I caution with a ; )

[@joshuadavidson7985]

Woah. Trinity takeover!!

[@KISStheSON...]

The ONLY thing standing between the lightbulb turning on in the minds of Calvininsts is their EGO. Predestination has been made CLEAR in this video. It's time to let Calvinism go by LETTING yourself feel the pain of humility by realizing you swallowed and held to a false doctrine that guided you away from knowing and preaching the one true wise God. Calvinism must die so we can UNITE in the body of Christ and the only way for that to happen is to LET IT GO, let it go...but, will you? Proverbs 4:7 “Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore GET wisdom: and with all thy GETTING get understanding.”💡💡💡 Get: come to have or hold (something); receive. Satan LOVES that we are divided over Calvinism because it WEAKENS the body which is why it MUST DIE 🦾

[@doulos9828]

Aren't you sponsoring the division by being a paying member of this channel? Those who attack reformed theology (like LF and his supporters) are simply attacking biblical theology. And if by "Calvinism" you mean the doctrines of grace, then that can never "die" because it is biblical theology. Logical consistency in what LF teaches leads to heresies like open-theism; an ego driven unbiblical interpretation intent on subordinating the Creator's will to the will of the creature.

[@KISStheSON...]

@@doulos9828 With all my mind and heart I am certain that Calvinism must die because it is not biblical. I do believe in the doctrine of grace but not the same doctrine of grace that you swallowed and hold to as truth. I believe in the doctrine of grace that anyone can freely learn and accept unto salvation. This is why we are commanded to practice patience because it can take time for sinners to accept the truth. I will be patiently waiting for you to purge the false doctrine of grace that was built in the imaginations of mankind and fed to creatures with the God-given ability to freely eat of any tree. The doctrine of grace will never die, but Calvinism must die so that the world is not blinded by the false doctrine of grace that Calvinism offers them to freely eat thereof...and many "did eat". I refer to myself as one of the janitorial staff members in the body of Christ because I am willing to walk with you patiently until you willingly purge what you swallowed and I will be there to hold you with loving arms 💌

[@doulos9828]

@@KISStheSON... Reformed theology is biblical despite what your heart and mind may feel and think. That's not the litmus test for truth; the word of God is. I'm curious, what your experience with reformed theology is. Do you know anything about reformed theology outside of how Flowers and his anti-Calvinist friends present it? Personally, I was brought up in arminian/charismatic churches, so I know first-hand what is taught and tolerated in those circles that promote the synergistic view of salvation. That last sentence in your comment is incredibly cringe (actually sounds cult-like), but I would be interested to see you attempt to patiently walk me away from biblical truth. Where would you like to start?

[@KISStheSON...]

@@doulos9828 "Reformed theology is biblical despite what your heart and mind may feel and think. That's not the litmus test for truth; the word of God is." Amen, the word of God is....therefore we must FREELY EAT! 2 Timothy 3:15 “And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.” Proverbs 4 7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore GET wisdom: and with all thy GETTING get understanding. 8 Exalt her, and she shall promote thee: she shall bring thee to honour, when thou dost EMBRACE her. 9 She shall give to thine head an ornament of grace: a crown of glory shall she deliver to thee. "She" brings us to faith in the Son. God first GIVES "her" to enable sinners to GET "her" and with all thy GETTING we GET understanding and understanding brings faith in God's word, and by faith, we stand in God's grace.....and as we stand in God's grace we are then SENT to WALK IN THE SPIRIT towards sinners who are outside of this grace to SERVE them the word of God to enable them to GET and with all their GETTING get understanding being made wise unto salvation. The law will not make a man wise unto salvation because the law was for the knowledge of sin so that the world may become GUILTY before God, but there was MORE for Israel to learn after that but they SET their minds on LEARNING THE LAW which made them become ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. It really is simple if you let yourself see it and when you do the reformed theology you hold to will be forced out of you and you will no longer be clouded by it. I will inform you that the theology you freely ate builds an idol inside you and it is you who has the responsibility to be open to purge it so that you can become a profitable member in God's house. This theology you bring in makes a big mess for us janitors to clean up and if weren't for having the best Boss, I would have quit long ago because he reminds me that you are my brothers and sisters and we need each other for strength in this present evil world and bot is he right as usual 💌 "But in a GREAT HOUSE there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. If a man therefore PURGE HIMSELF from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes." Even in God's house, there are vessels of dishonor because they freely eat false doctrines of devils and bring them in. Oh, what a mess we must clean up because so many refuse to remain on a strict diet of the pure wisdom of God because she is so darn plain Jane but she keeps the house uncluttered and tidy, but that other woman LOVES to clutter the house with worldly trophies and it becomes cluttered with worldly wisdom. Proverbs: 5 18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. 19 Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love. 20 And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and embrace the bosom of a stranger? ....House keeping with a smile 😁

[@KISStheSON...]

@@doulos9828 P.S. I'm glad you purged yourself of the Arminian and Charasmatic church doctrines that you freely ate from your youth. I purged the Roman Catholic doctrines that I freely ate from my youth, I must be honest it was painful as it was coming up because I realized what a fool I made of myself sticking around with my companions for so long even as I was filled with doubts. Proverbs 13:20 “He that walketh with wise men, shall be wise: but a companion of fools shall be destroyed.”

[@thirdplace3973]

This guest thinks Election and Predestination are synonymous words. They are not, that’s Calvinist/Arminian error.

[@meyo6154]

The title of this video needs to be changed…it’s not “non-Calvinist“ predestination, it’s Biblical predestination!

[@jamesjohnson8918]

Acid test. Does this bring glory to God?

[@user-im9ov9ud7m]

Man trying to figure out God, ranges from humorous to dangerous. Full complete faith in Jesus. Fairh full.

[@jaggedlines2257]

Wow. I wasn't expecting such a harsh backlash to my post. I am a brother In-Christ to most of you who replied. Obviously there are many anti-calvinists amongst you. Does than mean then, that Calvinism is not a legitimate christian theological belief? I shudder to think that some of you believe it. If you are content to believe in arminianism, ( subjective christianity ) who am I to try and convince you of something different. You must fulfil the destiny given to you. At least allow me to defend the theological position of Calvinism in the following biblical interpretation of scripture: We are saved by GRACE, not faith. Ephesians 2 verse 8. " For by grace you have been saved through faith, and not of yourselves; it is the gift of God " Saved by grace first, not by faith first. Faith, therefore is a GIFT from God. It is NOT something that comes from within us. " It is not of ourselves" We must not put the cart before the horse. We are saved by GRACE, because we are first and foremost SINNERS before God. It is because of Adam's Original sin that God sees all humanity as SINNERS. We are NOT innocent people. We are rebels who do not want anything to do with God. There must be a spiritual intervention by God to humanity that reveals who Jesus Christ really is. Romans 5 verse 8 " But God demonstrates His own love toward us, IN THAT WHILE WE WERE STILL SINNERS, Christ died for us. " Therefore we are saved by the GRACE of God first, not by our faith in him. I hope you understand this. We sometimes believe that OUR faith saves us. This is synergistic thinking. Faith is a GIFT from God. Therefore regeneration precedes faith. We MUST understand the concept of SIN, to fully comprehend the concept of GRACE. If we have a poor understanding of the concept of SIN, we will never understand the concept of GRACE. We will always return to the man-centered understanding of scripture. This leads us away from Christ. Savation is ALWAYS, let me repeat ALWAYS, about what God HAS DONE In-Christ. It is NOT about what man does and can do FOR Christ. A lack of understanding SIN, finds us lacking in understanding GRACE. That is the difference between Arminianism/semi-pelagianism and Calvinism. Total Depravity means mankinds total incapability of saving himself, because he is a sinner. If you are not preaching SIN, you are NOT preaching the Gospel. Calvinism preaches sin and grace. That is why it is called Calvinism. God bless.

[@johnknight3529]

I have no idea why you think the concept of "SIN" and the concept of "GRACE" are in any sense peculiar to Calvinism. "...preaching SIN" as Calvinists do, it seems to me, by attributing the commission of every bit of it to God, via His alleged total predetermination of it, is the reason I am anti-Calvinism. "We are rebels who do not want anything to do with God." I believe you, but may God bless you nonetheless . .

[@DamonNomad82]

Funny how when you begin your post with, and I quote: "This is so man- centered semi-pelagianism on steroids" that the replies aren't exactly full of sunshine and rainbows. It's not unlike a child on a playground running around hitting other kids and acting shocked and offended when some of them hit him back. If I were to go on a Calvinist channel and open a comment with something incendiary about Calvinism like it "being more Manichean Gnostic than Christian" or about it "believing in a 'god' that was morally indistinguishable from the devil", I would at least have the good sense to expect a swarm of very angry rebuttals in response to it, and the self-awareness to realize that those rebuttals were entirely self-inflicted by making an incendiary comment, no matter how true my statements might be. If you decide to go up to a hornets' nest and give it a good kick, don't be shocked when the result is more than a few stings...

[@marorey-yc2qx]

And John Calvin did not only preach but murdered people who are opposed to Him in the name of God no better than the crusaders so you think such a man is worthy to be followed?

[@johndoe-ln4oi]

So God predestined this Christian to reject Calvinist predestination. Amazing isn't it?

[@johndoe-ln4oi]

@@johnknight3529 I agree. Saying sin and grace are unique to calvinism is a straw man argument.

[@gojohnnygo3209]

The bible says those He knows He predestined: those in Matt 7:21 are examples of those He never knew. All Christian says they are in Christ: but really, maybe you're/we are one among those in Matt 7:21.

[@multiwebinc]

This definition of predestination doesn't make sense to me. If you are only predestined to conform to the image of Christ, but not predestined for salvation, that means that being conformed to the image of Christ and being saved are not necessarily the same thing and therefore there could be people who are conformed to Christ's image that are not saved and people who are not conformed to Christ's image that are saved. And Ephesians 1 makes this definition even more confusing v5: "In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ". Using the same logic, this would mean there are people who are predestined to be adopted sons of God that will end up in hell, and sons of Satan that are never adopted as a son of God that will end up in Heaven. The only definition that makes sense and is consistent with all scriptures is "And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified." All of the people who are predestined will eventually be called, justified and eventually glorified (i.e. have eternal salvation). Nobody gets lost along the way and nobody gets added in half way through the process.

[@TheRomans9Guy]

God predestined to choose/elect to forgive all people. Importantly, no one is not elect. All people are elect.

[@JesusIsLord777-lz7mg]

The names written in the Book of Life are in the PERFECT tense, passive voice, and indicative mood. It was completed in the past. Strong's: G1125 English: were written Code: V-RPI-3S Long: Verb - Perfect Passive Indicative - 3rd Person Singular Speech: Verb 👉Tense: Perfect👈 Voice: Passive Mood: Indicative Person: 3rd Person Number: Singular

[@TheRomans9Guy]

@@JesusIsLord777-lz7mg Sounds about right. Doesn’t change the point though. All people are elect.

[@JesusIsLord777-lz7mg]

@@TheRomans9Guy What verses state that all people are elected for salvation?

[@wolfwatchers]

I go the complete opposite way here ! any time the word ''THOSE'' is used its for a specific group of people not ''all'' those that like grapes , select grp not everyone , those who love dogs, select grp , all over scripture its ''those'' he predestined = a select grp , how are we saved in the body of christ ??? Ephesians 1:13-14 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. we hear the gospel revealed to Paul WE BELIEVE it we are saved sealed and justified! now lets take Paul for instance did he believe the gospel? he was persecuting the followers of christ the Lord appeared to him knocked him down and blinded him , he received the spirit by laying on of hands , long story short Paul is one of ''THOSE'' predestined by God the rest of us have to believe the gospel !!!! only a select few are predestined like Paul

[@grizz4489]

​@@TheRomans9Guy Every usage of election in the bible is in reference to either born-again believers or the nation of Isreal and NEVER is in reference to unbelievers. Also , election has to do with service , sometimes in this life and sometimes in the future Kingdom of Heaven.

[@YANI_578]

The question really boils down to is if the object of predestination is either a plan or a people. If it's a plan that is being predestined in Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 then Provisionism is correct. If people are the objects of predestination then Calvinism is correct. Reading both passages it is clear that people are the objects. There's really no way around this.

[@johnknight3529]

Do you actually believe that by leaving off any reference to those being your personal assessments, conclusions, interpretations, etc., you are somehow tricking otherwise intelligent people into thinking they are not? Let me "fix" that comment for you; ``I say the question really boils down to is if the object of predestination is either a plan or a people. I say if it's a plan that is being predestined in Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 then Provisionism is correct. And I say If people are the objects of predestination then Calvinism is correct. Reading both passages as I say they should be read; it is clear that people are the objects. And I say there's really no way around this.`` See how that makes things more realistic? Less like you are a Prophet of God or something, speaking to us mere bystanders as you proclaim what the mind of God has to say about these matters?

[@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi]

False Dichotomy It's neither Bottom line You err in you're Biblical definition of predestination. Therefore, your soteriology could not possibly be correct. Nor can you know WHY neither of your two choices are incorrect.

[@YANI_578]

@@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi Tell me what the object of the verb "predestined" is. Please enlighten me on your definition of "predestined" as well.

[@YANI_578]

@@johnknight3529 Not sure what adding "I say" to what I'm saying makes much difference. Feel free to address my actual argument if you want.

[@johnknight3529]

@@YANI_578 - - " Not sure what adding "I say" to what I'm saying makes much difference." I can see that, and that's why I said something about it. It's a rhetorical device that I've seen very many Calvinists employ, this just stating what they think is true, as if it is what logicians call 'a given'. Which effectively shifts the "burden of proof" away from the speaker, and onto anyone who does not see things the way the speaker does, to put it briefly. You don't have to make a case for what you proclaim is so, with this tactic. But those who might challenge what you say have to, or the "discussion" would immediately devolve into this; ``You are obviously wrong. . . No I'm not, you are . . . NO, you are . . . etc. etc. etc. And since reasonable people don't want to get into such a situation/"discussion", the employer of the tactic essentially "get's away with" taking the first shot, in just that sort of situation/"discussion", unless someone calls them out. Like I did.

[@JesusIsLord777-lz7mg]

Ephesians 1:5 predestined us to adoption AS A. Sons = sonship B. Redemption of our bodies ‭Ephesians 1:5 NKJV‬ [5] having predestined us to adoption 👉as sons👈 by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, Do you see where it reads, "AS SONS"? A. is the correct answer ✅️✅️✅️

[@andrewtsousis3130]

All Ephesians 1 is saying, is the concept of adoption was Predestined (Ie the fact that those who believe will be predestined to be adopted as sons), it is not saying God has predestined certain people to adoption. How do we know this? Because later in vS 13 Paul reminds his audience how they were actually saved. Ie when they believed the gospel. “And you were also included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of salvation. When you believed, you were marked with a seal the Holy Spirit”.

[@JesusIsLord777-lz7mg]

@@andrewtsousis3130 I can't believe the truth for you. All I can do is post it on here for you. Your interpretation is false ❌️

[@JesusIsLord777-lz7mg]

@andrewtsousis3130 "It is not saying God has predestined certain people to adoption." That's exactly what the verse is saying. That He predestined us to SONSHIP which happens when we believe. Predestined TO sonship. The word huiothesia is used. It's definition specifies justification and omits glorification. Strong's Definitions: υἱοθεσία huiŏthĕsia, hwee-oth-es-ee'-ah; from a presumed compound of G5207 and a derivative of G5087; the placing as a son, i.e. adoption (figuratively, Christian sonship in respect to God):-adoption (of children, of sons).

[@andrewtsousis3130]

@@JesusIsLord777-lz7mg If this passage is proof of reformed theology, (Ie your definition of “Predestined”) then why does Paul specifically refer to the audience and their Salvation later on in the passage? Vs 13. “And you were also included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of salvation. When you believed, you were marked with a seal the Holy Spirit”. Ie he has just spoken about them being predestined to be apostles for service, and then says “and you were also” inferring he is reminding them also about their salvation. Clearly the two are separate topics. Not only that, but notice the definition of Salvation, Ie they heard the gospel, they then believed, and received the Holy Spirit. There is no reference to having to be regenerated first in order to believe, if anything this passage refutes reformed doctrine, it certainly doesn’t prove or support it in any way.

[@JesusIsLord777-lz7mg]

@andrewtsousis3130 Now you're trying to change the question to whether we are regenerated before faith or after BECAUSE you can't deal with the definition of huiothesia and the context in verses 6 and 7 which are CLEARLY ABOUT JUSTIFICATION, NOT GLORIFICATION. Ephesians 1:13 doesn't mention regeneration. It says you were sealed WITH the Holy Spirit OF PROMISE. The seal is not the spiritual birth. It is a guarantee upon believing BECAUSE the spiritual birth has already occured. Because the spiritual birth has already occurred we believe and are sealed with the Holy Spirit OF PROMISE. There is NO PREPOSITION in Ephesians 1 13

[@jaggedlines2257]

This is so man- centered semi-pelagianism on steroids. Did you notice how it was said that ( we can choose Christ ) Really? This is a synergistic understanding of salvation. Our faith is somehow a guarantee that we are saved. Really? Either God chose us in His Son, or we choose Christ. Which one is it? The biblical understanding of salvation is that we cannot contribute ANYTHING. This includes our faith. On the contrary, we are NOT saved by OUR faith. We are saved by GRACE. This is from God. Therefore any faith we have is a GIFT from God. It is not about OUR FAITH. This is man-centered heretical theology. The moment we say that we are saved by OUR FAITH in-Christ, is the moment we believe in arminianism. A SUBJECTIVE interpretation of scripture. Calvinism believes in what Christ has done for us. ( objective ) Arminianism believes in what we can do for Christ. ( subjective ) Either God chose us or we choose Christ. Which one is it? The slippery slope of arminian/semi-pelagianism or the Calvinistic by GRACE alone biblical understanding of salvation. May God bless you as you seek the truth.

[@grizz4489]

Your premise is wrong. You said " Either God chose us in Christ or we choose Christ." May i point out that a person does NOT choose to believe something and that according to scripture, the gift of everlasting life is received through BELIEVING IN Jesus. Belief in Christ is the issue not choosing Christ. How can an unbeliever choose Christ if they don't even believe in Him. Also you said that faith is a gift. May i point out that the definition of faith is " to be convinced that something is true ." So are you saying that unbelievers cannot be convinced that something is true ? That is simply not true. I know hundreds of unbelievers and they all are convinced that there are things that are true. They all have faith, the objects of their faith may be in different things but they all have faith. Also, there are no scriptures that clearly say that faith is a gift.

[@mikekukovec4386]

I'm confused by your statement "Our faith is somehow a guarantee that we are saved". What do you do with verses like John 3:16, Romans 10:9, and Mark 16:16 that seem to imply this is exactly how we get saved? Not a youtube troll, just a truth seeker trying to understand. Thank you.

[@DanielM-kl3bv]

Ruth 2:12 The Lord recompense thy work, and a full reward be given thee of the Lord God of Israel, under whose wings THOU art come to trust. Matthew 8:10-13,26 When Jesus heard it, he MARVELLED,and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as THOU hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour. 26 And he saith unto them, Why are ye fearful, O ye of little faith? Then he arose, and rebuked the winds and the sea; and there was a great calm. Matthew 9:22,29 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; THY FAITH hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour. 29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you. Matthew 21:21-22 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, IF YE HAVE FAITH, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. 22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.32 For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him

[@johnknight3529]

"Either God chose us in His Son, or we choose Christ. Which one is it?" Neither, in my case anyway. I chose to ask a God I didn't believe existed at the time, to "alleviate my ignorance if that is your will." And to my amazement, He did, by way of a few weeks long, series of very strange "coincidences", all clearly having to do with a certain Book. I just chose to ask, He chose to make me a believer in Christ.

[@johnknight3529]

PS- I consider Calvinism to be a horrific set of disgusting accusations against God's character, and Creative abilities. And if you're a believer in total predeterminism, why are you here complaining about beliefs you supposedly believe God wanted people to hold?? (Take it up with your "God", I suggest, if you dare ; )

[@ggductor1511]

Waste of time