the sniper dot is a lie🤥

[@shounic]

just fyi, with valve flip flopping on the quickswitch thing, it seems like i might as well wait for them to come to a conclusion? so it could be some time until i make the video covering the recent updates :)

[@seronymus]

NOOOO REEEEEEEEEEEEE WE NEED ANALYSIS NOW (apparently from file size a LOT of backend code was reworked)

[@soundwave8475]

I'm more curious about the Pyro finger Polygon, only video I found on it is a meme

[@5spec]

I don't really see what's wrong with this

[@RedxYeti]

Cool, I didn't know about the bug in the first place so i'd love to see your analysis.

[@zack1stplayer]

They didn't flip-flop though, they fixed Quickswap conflicts, but broke some valid options in the process, then fixed the broken valid options.

[@mauroghen]

So the more “jumpy” the sniper dot, you can tell how far the sniper is, neat.

[@oktayyildirim2911]

Oh, that's actually cool to know!

[@nixel1324]

Which in turn can help with estimating their aim! Jumpier dot = safer to run past!

[@thunderspark1536]

Facinating

[@Saad-ih3ys]

Useless actually.

[@oktayyildirim2911]

@@Saad-ih3ys What makes you say that?

[@muffinman9018]

Shounic's gonna one day explain the mechanics of pressing W, how that gets conveyed to the server, and how it is broken

[@lugui]

it actually is an interesting process

[@GardenNomme]

that's probably true lol

[@Not-So-Herman]

He probably already did

[@reddbun-e]

TF2 Steam guides be like

[@frogixon]

Shhh, stop giving him ideas

[@plootyluvsturtle9843]

the looking animations are some of the greatest animation choices ever. the sheer comedy that being able to nod yes and no in such a goofy manor is amazing

[@lamegamertime]

*nods with entire upper body*

[@Ya0w]

@Ramiro And realise that it is even better, hell yeah!

[@Jekler]

every time i see someone violently nod or shake their head i just imagine a rattling sound and its perfect

[@nicreven]

manner

[@lunaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa]

one of the many small reasons it will always be the greatest game ever made

[@TrustyGun2]

ah yes, it only gets inaccurate at long range. good thing you'll never end up fighting a sniper at long range, so this is really never an issue.

[@Helperbot-2000]

*spongebob foghorn*

[@maxlaihc]

yes and of course you’ll always know that they’re there and pretty much exactly where they’re looking by just using your eyes because it’s not like they’ll be hidden somewhere far away where you can’t see them

[@spacegoldfish9481]

one of these days we'll have enough evidence to prove that every sniper headshot ever made was technically a miss

[@spacegoldfish9481]

@Kross yes. including the ones where they were standing totally still

[@davisdf3064]

The sniper rifle was supposed to have random bullet spread, but Valve didn't knew up until now that it's perfectly precise. -jk-

[@bigblue344]

I am not exaggerating when I say this but I have gotten more headshots either by missing my target completely or shooting them in the stomach (aside from the huntsman)

[@TheDragShot]

@@bigblue344 that's lag compensation being a little forgiving.

[@TF2CrunchyFrog]

It only affects the snipper dot in world view, meaning what the other players see of your dot, so your own aim as Sniper isnt affected.

[@samuels1123]

Basically, the sniper dot is projected from a rounded angle, you can use the distance between positions a dot clicks between to get the distance of the sniper, like triangulation

[@DragonaxFilms]

I like the of TF2 players doing geometry to avoid getting headshot, and then probably getting backstabbed while using their graph calculator xD

[@samuels1123]

@@DragonaxFilms just, if a stationary sniper dot jumps a foot across a wall in one frame and returns to stationary instantly, the sniper is at a significant distance

[@vibaj16]

unless the sniper tricks you by manually aiming with those jolts to make you think they are far away

[@TF2CrunchyFrog]

@@vibaj16 Only if the Sniper player is telepathic and can read your mind from potentially thousands of km away to know you know about that sniper dot "feature".

[@vibaj16]

@@TF2CrunchyFrog so you have to read someone's mind to be able to mess with them?

[@unholyserpent7942]

It was always weird to spectate snipers, as their dot usually was pointed below enemies' head, registering a headshot after a shot.

[@TheRoboKitty]

I love the irony that this is only a problem at long ranges, on the only long range class. At the same time, from a gameplay stance, I don't think this is a problem. The dot tells you a Sniper is aiming at you just in general, and that tells you more than enough

[@bruschetta7711]

and at those ranges no competent sniper would hold too long i do bodyshot on purpose on those ranges because it's funny to see their reaction of getting hit from miles away

[@TF2CrunchyFrog]

Also, it's only an issue in world view (what other players see of your dot, what the host server tells them), it doesnt affect your own POV (client view).

[@Margen67]

Flareon needs HUGS

[@TheRoboKitty]

@@Margen67 feel free

[@calcutt4]

@@bruschetta7711based, I love bodyshotting tryhardy snipers especially and watching them rage

[@ghost_ship_supreme]

So does this mean every time I’ve been staring next to a doorway to hide my sniper dot, it could’ve just been in the doorway on the wall the whole time?

[@budowniczypylonow7026]

Yes

[@drucy.]

Only if you start aiming in the doorway and then, move to the side of it. Otherwise, it would be more hidden.

[@SSM24_]

@@drucy. If the problem is rounding the current angle, then I'm pretty sure how you actually got to that angle doesn't matter - looking at the same position would always put the sniper dot in the same place.

[@drucy.]

@@SSM24_ Nah, it seems that the dot basically trails of and snap AFTER where you aim, so it follows the same pattern, just snapping between places instead of smoothly going to each.

[@vibaj16]

@@drucy. no, it snaps but smoothly goes between the positions

[@IBeforeAExceptAfterK]

I can't believe it. A system where floating point numbers are used where floating point precision _isn't_ the cause of the problem. Amazing!

[@IBeforeAExceptAfterK]

I mean you're not wrong, but I was referring to the precision problems that arise when performing floating point arithmetic.

[@chri-k]

@@rishiishere. that’s not what “floating point imprecision” means though

[@macslash5833]

Truly is impressive, makes you think about if the creators of the floating point standard regret not making the mantissa larger because they knew precision problems would absolutely occur

[@sourestcake]

@@macslash5833 The IEEE 754 floating point standard does have multiple sizes. 32-bit and 64-bit formats are the most common, but it can go up to 256 bits at least. It's just that hardware support for anything beyond 64 bits is unportable, like the 80-bit format of the x87 FPU. Applications that need insanely large numbers use arbitrary precision libraries.

[@macslash5833]

@@sourestcake I know theres multiple sizes for floating point numbers, I know about 128 bit value types which are probably coming at some point in the future when people realise 64 bits wont cut it for everything (obviously works for a lot of things though) its just an interesting thought

[@deck_gaming]

I would join a class which just talks about how tf2 works

[@swedneck]

that would be cooking class, discussing the making of Source Spaghetti

[@SireForseti]

@@swedneck mamma mia, that's a spicy meatball

[@yarknark]

@@SireForseti the meatballs are the chapters imagine class starting with "so today we're gonna be getting into meatball 7: Source server and client discrepancies"

[@smokeyplane3285]

@@yarknark what would the final project for this class be

[@yarknark]

@@smokeyplane3285 Combine all your knowledge to effectively improve a certain aspect of the Source engine in some way. Whether it be fixing the rarest and most irrelevant bug in half life source to revamping the entire physics engine

[@Thornskade]

I had no idea. I thought the reason the dots jumped like this was because either people were lagging or just moving their mouse quickly

[@doctortwilight]

When you look up or down it's not exactly 90°, it's actually 89°, as said by commands cl_pitchup and cl_pitchdown. If you look perfectly 90° up or down your controls invert.

[@O5MO]

You cant look directly 90 and -90 in default game (though you can with cheats), but what the shounic wanted to say is that the server does support looking directly up. Its just not possible normally, but if you do it with cheats, server will be operating normally. (Maybe it will detect that you are cheating but that's another story)

[@bubbleman2002]

@Shinterpuff you can definitely look up or down more than 89.9º, aim punch.

[@MetalX34]

legit was wondering how some snipers camping sightlines had such robotic movements when sweeping out of boredom

[@genghisdingus]

This would actually be a really cool tweak in tf2. Snipe dots tend to be hard to see because theyre stationary when they shouldnt be.

[@rixarlin]

Always saw this in demos povs of snipers, very nice to know.

[@cysipy]

its so weird seeing the 16 bit sniper dot compared to the 8 bit one because we are all used to that

[@richardwatson1254]

what i expected from this video: explanation for sniper's dot inaccuracy what i got: what 8bit and more actually means

[@Nightmare_52]

i always liked the sniper dot being on like a grid pattern instead of 100% accurate, you really just need the rough area where they are looking

[@unrevoked7137]

Video idea: Heavy rocket jumps further and higher than any other class, and the other classes have the same idea but at different levels

[@DarkPortall]

that's just heavy insanely op...

[@unrevoked7137]

@@DarkPortall no im saying thats already a mechanic in tf2

[@unrevoked7137]

@@DarkPortall in randomizer it's something i noticed. I want shounic to go specifically why it happens

[@itsasecrettoevery1]

@@unrevoked7137 soldier is the only class to have a "weight" heavy takes less knockback from everything, but hes technically the same weight as every other class except for the soldier, who is the "heaviest" what being heavier just means that you take lesser knockback from your own explosives, thats why in randomizer you get launched way higher as other classes with the rocket launcher

[@kaeruKola_]

@@itsasecrettoevery1 so that might explain why engineer is sent flying when sentry jumping, and not just because "four rockets = more knockback"

[@tulsatrash]

Sadly a lot of people still have internet connections that haven't improved since 2007.

[@DeskFan]

i have such a shit sense of humor the pyro spinning around at 0:45 is so hilarious to me for some reason

[@youtubeuniversity3638]

"Perfect" accuracy would take 27 bits just for vertical. 16 seems sufficient.

[@le9038]

To be honest, slight inaccuracies in the sniper dot don't matter as long as 1. You know it's there 2. You have the survival instinct to not want to get shot.

[@TriggerzConnors]

Thats the reason why I went out the open and the dot was few away from my head. I thought he's not gonna hit my head and he did.

[@robinrai4973]

lovely video and explanation as usual!

[@lightningkitten]

it'll be funny if they fix it, seeing distant snipers conveying emotions or little messages with their sniper dots (seeing an angry sniper shake his crosshair in frustration at someone ducking behind cover, for instance), or scoping on the same spot as them to communicate with them. it would make the class slightly more interactive and funny.

[@Vhie05]

or a sniper trying to "write with the dot". Funny if two snipers at 2fort can mutually communicate this way

[@lightningkitten]

@@Vhie05 exactly

[@probablyjohn5589]

This is an extremely detailed explanation. Thank you, shounic.

[@Hydrant749]

**THE DOT IS A LIE** **THE DOT IS A LIE** **THE DOT IS A LIE** -Doug Rattmann

[@dexuspillarmen7703]

until now, i was so scared of snipers, then i play sniper at 2fort, and notice, yeah, they can be scary, but no thing can defeat a kamikaze soldier, so now, sniper spoted, ill just go full rocket jump to unplug his power

[@Wheagg]

They could also start using "looking at xyz" to eliminate the problem completely and have the same error margin regardless of distance, but that might be overkill.

[@Name-ot3xw]

Fallout 3 had that bug too, but worse. Your bullet followed a vector that started from the bottom center of the screen causing issues with people trying to snipe outside of VATS.

[@eviethekiwi7178]

i love that those compressing things at 1:49 are immediately recognizable as the hydraulic press from Hydraulic Press Channel 0

[@Matheus-gc5fn]

when the 64 bits update came out the only thing i tough was "wait, that means the dot is now acturare"

[@Treblaine]

[sees dot moving unnaturally] "OMG teh snipre iz haxxing!"

[@Mexican00b]

never played TF2 but i always stumble over some kind of videos like this one or those crazy animations fans do... its amazing how this community works hahaha

[@artemking4460]

Thing is, the amount of bits allocated for these two is so small simply because it was inherited from older versions of the source engine. Maybe even quake era, who knows. Its just that this is sent in svc_PacketEntities(i might be wrong but the name is similar), and i assume that it just uses the same thing as for all objects, so im pretty sure all object orientation is that way. And i remember looking into clc_Move, and yes, they do send raw 32 bit floats for player camera angles, so i guess thats right

[@JTBJacksdeadasschannel]

Shounic talking about how the server sends all these different commands to your computer in a split second makes me wonder how powerful my computer really is

[@Marioiscool246]

up and down look value is actually clamped to 89.0 (cl_pitchup/cl_pitchdown cvar setting) if you set it to 90, you cannot move if you look directly down

[@mikec670]

I think it might have to do with tangent. Some kinda trig that causes that.

[@sauli01]

But the server still counts the values going up to 90 so the accuarcy is still what is said in video. Just cant go past 89 with mouse movement

[@ShinyQuagsire]

technically if they wanted, they could get more resolution out of the 8-bit quantization by using a nonlinear mapping. For example, aiming directly in the sky or at your feet is relatively uncommon, so those values could get reallocated to the center of the FoV.

[@Catcrumbs]

1:00 Yaw is rotation about the vertical axis. 1:24 Those are all rotational co-ordinates. In order, they are pitch, yaw and roll.

[@Yay295]

World of Tanks actually has an option to display the server's reticle on top of your own, so you can know where you're actually aiming. Though for World of Tanks the issue is more due to potential lag than due to numbers being rounded.

[@andrewponder3855]

It's only a problem at greater distances? Well that's fine, snipers aren't a long range class./s

[@deadweightnero]

hey guys at 1:44 turn on auto gen captions english

[@cgguto]

Lmao

[@whoknows7384]

Funny.

[@Big_Iron_Tomkus]

That was a really good and easy to understand explanation of bits.

[@bekda4963]

Whenever I read your titles I'm like "Dafuq you mean dude" then after watching I'm like "oooooohhh ok"

[@JDubTheFamilyGamer]

great video! thanks Shounic!

[@joshyaash]

Wow, your explanation on bits was really well done.. nice

[@Da_Random]

Wait, wouldn't raising the amount of bits available for rotation data ALSO produce more accurate spectator views? I think some people would stop accusing legitimate players for cheating just because they don't know the technical aspects and quirks of the game. OR at the very least, it would make demo playbacks look nicer for sniper montages, I suppose lol.

[@lychy645]

Yes

[@epicgamerzfail4575]

3:28 well it's a good snipers aren't good at long range then

[@RonZhang]

Yes, I like it when you cover discrepancies of TF2 in deep detail.

[@MrBrax]

Huh, i swear i never saw this when I played tf2 years ago. Felt like it always moved smoothly

[@JouvaMoufette]

I think they're talking about how others on the server perceive it. Locally it may look fine, but not so much when transmitted to other players

[@MrBrax]

@@JouvaMoufette yes my own dot would look fine, meant when looking at other players dots

[@derekc.7689]

it's probably better described as imprecise than inaccurate whatever though, great explanation of bits and nice graphics work as always!

[@helmetluigi]

Can you cover this High Five Taunt quirk? 1. Face a wall, try using the high five taunt, won't let you 2. Face away from the wall just enough so it appears it should let you use it, try using it, won't let you 3. Now don't move your mouse, just jump in place once, try using the taunt now, it let's you use it! Seems like the player model doesn't update its direction unless the rotation rate is bigger, or if the player jumps

[@TheTehnigga]

I'm learning so much about programming with these in depth TF2 videos!

[@danger2236]

shounic turned from a funny bug museum guy, to a white hat playtester/bug finder

[@TheBreadPirate]

That 16 Bit dot is 👌

[@nerro984]

I think a simpler and quicker analogy is that less bit means bigger "grid" of the possible positions

[@umbree6407]

0:45 I have noticed that the game steps the entities rotation in the Yaw axis to use "Pose Parameters" more closely. Albeit it isn't a hard set to be stepped, as once you start moving its mostly the same direction you are facing.

[@ReshyShira]

With you discussing how models change their facing, does this affect the backstab hitbox? I'd be kinda curious to see what the server considers to be the backstab hitbox and if it has any weird rounding issues that causes it.

[@irregularassassin6380]

That might help explain some of the slightly questionable facestabs.

[@thatrandomcrit5823]

@@irregularassassin6380 "slightly"

[@mrbooboostankReal]

Months late but backstabbing is based on angles and the positions of the spy and his victim: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nZmYd5prmcSoeLc

[@zk.2095]

YO WAS THAT QUANCHALE DINGALINGHEEHOO IN THE THUMBNAIL???😱😱😱

[@william3371]

1:55 I love that you literally proceeded to just explain how binary code works here for the sake of the video

[@CapemanProducti0ns]

16 bit lasers look so uncanny wtf

[@MagyarGaben]

The entire programming community: "Why can't you just be normal?" TF2 code: KnNjcmVhbXMq

[@baronvonwhinsectown2454]

Me waiting for shounic to release the scream fortress content drop showcase video

[@stapleboy7462]

brave enough to say it

[@EnderBuilder]

Shounic should make a video about TF2 weapons that were "balanced" to the ground and maybe the contractor at Valve will help us.

[@jkerman5113]

Beautiful explanation

[@nick-playercharacter8583]

This is an interesting quirk. On the one hand, it's not really begging for a fix since the dot is only there to warn the other team that the sniper is scoped on an area. Knowing the exact spot they're looking at isn't that important. On the other hand, implementing the fix wouldn't be that difficult nowadays and the meager downsides can only further fade with time. We'll just have to wait and see if Valve does anything about this.

[@wisedredd8203]

babe wake up, new shounic video dropped

[@VestedUTuber]

I know this may seem like something broken, but this also basically prevents the dot from desynching due to small movements.

[@noskalborg723]

mmmmMMMMMmmmmm Shallaaaan! deLICious liesssss!

[@Homer_Noobson]

That thumbnail is genius.

[@ZyphonyTF]

Shounic's excuse be like when he gets called out "a shit sniper":

[@purplehaze2358]

I watched this all the way through and I’m no closer to understanding what causes this oddity. Not because it’s poorly explained, but because my brain is too small to understand it.

[@mr.m2675]

thank you for being the rare kind of internet people that can show their imperfections

[@userPrehistoricman]

you should be named Dr Dim

[@OGUnusualHat]

Instead of labeling the 3rd value in setang as 'rotation', it should have been labeled 'roll', as the first two values are the pitch and yaw, and together the 3 make up the 3 axis of 3d rotation.

[@chickennugget6684]

ah that explains a lot of clips where the dot doesn't line up very well somehow i feel like this being broken actually is a positive jank thing since it makes the person viewing it not know *exactly* where the sniper is aiming

[@Strange_med]

I have a idea for a experiment, what if you could use all of a class’s items at once? Maybe like if you were playing demo with your primary stock weapon out and you pressed a button and your stock primary would switch to a iron bomber, and if you pressed it again it would switch to another demoman primary. Would this make certain classes over powered?

[@AGrayPhantom]

This explains why I still get shot even though it didn't look like the dot was on me on my screen! 😲

[@gordonf5553]

welcome to another episode of 8bit gaming

[@Darksides-Realm]

hell so this is why my aim seems to always be off when i play sniper and sniper alone, hella good shot with med's crossbow and engi's rescue ranger, but always had issues aiming with sniper

[@l2_linksklix]

Ok, and thats why the 64 bit update is important

[@robrucki6695]

shounic out here giving kids free comp sci education

[@shigee]

is that also why when spectating a sniper, when they only scope in, it looks super weird and jumpy? ive seen snipers aim completely fine when they're unscoped, but when they scope in, the aim looks all weird and choppy, just like the sniper dot

[@randomcatdude]

correct

[@bidoofus7921]

Kinda pogged a little cuz right now I'm studying numerical analysis in Uni, which is exactly related to this topic

[@spurzz]

You should do an event with every player’s LOS visible, I wonder how classes like sniper would change

[@SpunkMayo]

They did that already

[@twin_towers_destroyer]

spy… zzzzz….

[@RdTrler]

He already did that with Snipers, but you're talking about *all* players. Spies would totally get the shaft because they'd be drawing some seriously sussy lines from disguises.

[@003Jetfire]

At first I thought the title was saying the bullet doesn't go where the reticle is pointing. I play a lot of huntsman, and even ignoring arrow drop the arrow doesn't always go where the reticle is pointing. Similar to the soldier, the arrow does not fire from the sniper's camera / eyes. This means at close to medium range, you can miss headshots because of this, which is quite frustrating.

[@swe223]

Yeah at point-blank you need to aim much over their head and a little bit to the left. It literally became second nature for me after playing a lot of huntsman.

[@SpunkMayo]

Meanwhile my internet is the same as it was in 2007

[@Sivves]

the more he does this the more insane these bugs go his future videos will explain why recording using obs on tf2 breaks it by giving you infinite speed

[@Aelfraed26]

Yeah they could improve the accuracy of the dot by raising the bits available, but I don't think it's that big of a deal.

[@furryplayboicarti]

I always thought something was weird.

[@258thHiGuy]

My first guess is that its easier to see a static dot than one that's constantly moving slightly as the sniper adjusts the aim

[@irregularassassin6380]

Humans are programmed to notice motion, especially in our peripheral vision. As far as I know, a moving object is always easier to see than a stationary one under otherwise equal conditions.

[@specific4017]

So that's why whenever I spectate a sniper their aim looks like they were aiming with keyboard arrows

[@mino2123]

BANGER thumbnail

[@greenlemon9155]

i thought the dot was an edict with his network datatable had the float precision flag set to his position, or is this just for hl2mp ??

[@Zodaxa_zdx]

this has gotten me banned on a couple sweaty servers due to the "proof" of my laser dot being "no where near the head". I always knew the dot was not always accurate but the first person view says otherways so bleh. Thank for ammending this 8 years later

[@pixdie]

LETS DO A LITTLE MATH to imagine how inaccurate it is and how accurate can be with few bits: imagine a infinite vertical wall at 100 meters away with target in the eye level. aiming parallel to to ground( cot(0) ) will be exact at center. if you move it enough to just a jump 1 step with 180/256(2^8)info which is equal to 0,703125 degree, 100m * cot(0,703125) is equal to ~1.22m. So minimum jump that dot can do with 8 bit info at 100m is 1.22m. about the height of 7yo boy. but if you use 16bit instead of 8bit; if you move it enough to just a jump 1 step with 180/65536(2^16)info which is equal to 0,00274658203125 degree, 100m * cot(0.00274658203125) is equal to 0.00048m. about the height of 4 paper stacked. So minimum jump that dot can do with 16 bit info ~2550 times more precise.

[@fabiopauli420]

this is what happened a few days ago to me than, i was seeing the sniper dot and it looked like the sniper wasnt aiming at headhight, i thought if i jump no was he is gonna do more than bodyshot me even with a flick but nope, instead hs, i was convinced that guy was probably cheating, now turns out, sniper dot is just missaligned

[@Sealysleepy]

why do i find just a pyro looking around to be so funny

[@eyitsaperson]

ask yourself

[@flowerpotmadeofclay]

The gas mask probably

[@abicto]

idk pyro in general is just goofy to see

[@55ziomal55]

This is one of those things you don't need to dig into game's code to discover. If you play TF2 long enough, especially as sniper this becomes very noticeable.