The Trouble with Focus Trees

This video takes a short look at focus trees in Hearts of Iron IV and what issues they create.
While focuses have a place in a game like HOI4 that is built around preparing for war as much as waging it, killing time by just waiting for 70 day focuses to complete is a very problematic way to spend time in a video game.
That, and the fact that ultimately focuses create such a dependence on themselves from the player base are good reason to perhaps start rethinking the system and how it works within Hearts of Iron IV.
Unfortunately it seems that Paradox either don't see the problem or don't want to see it as focus trees become larger and more complex, making the problems with them grow bigger and bigger with each new focus tree added to the game.

[@xionkuriyama5697]

The worst is when you burn through a whole branch and *still nothing has happened.*

[@TheIronWorkshop]

At least you got that 100PP you waited 3 hours for :D

[@pillbox2079]

@@TheIronWorkshop I know that that is sarcasm, but it is not as bad as you claim it to be in the video. It is like saying that Research slots are the worst mechanic in the game. How dare they make us wait for new technologies?! :D

[@ayumalani5631]

@@pillbox2079 the realproblem with ficus trees is that you canchange anything and just wait for 70 days for that to happen. Like for example the alt history patg where no gives a shit even though you radically changed tge geopolitics of your nation and potentially affecting the interest or concerns of many other nation.

[@pillbox2079]

@@ayumalani5631 That is the problem with the design of the focus tree, not the system.

[@truwu8177]

@@TheIronWorkshop I would love to see a mod that completely removes focus trees. It would also be cool to see a mod that also removes command power, experience, political power, and a COMPLETE rework of construction, production, trade, and policies/decesions

[@kingo6378]

I feel like focus trees are just an excuse for the lack of dynamic mechanics. For example, instead of simulating a realistic way for someone to demand something from another nation, like Germany did with Poland, Czechoslovakia, etc, they just add a focus tree that does it for them, basically making their work easier, but severely limiting player freedom, and railroading the game. This also makes playing minor nations such a terrible experience, because there are no dynamic mechanics to simulate what nations realistically should be able to do.

[@ScoromX25]

Yea, this is why Stellaris gives you much more freedom, because there are no focus trees. You just use games mechanics the way you like instead of doing a scripted focus.

[@someorclad9738]

You can always mod your own focus tree while playing as a minor, but I agree with ya. Should've done it the way Stellaris did it.

[@SLOKilller]

35 days for a focus should be a standard

[@platinumsun4632]

Absofucking lutely! Chiense tree you can only do 25 focuses by january 1st 42.

[@alexdreFalke]

Yes. Especially the dumb societ Focuses with 240 Days that don't even do shit

[@theimperial_]

The only focus tree where 'you can DO" something is the Great Purge because you can select some generals that die. (not all the time)

[@maerto]

And quite a few mods utilise that as well

[@BlueHawkPictures17]

100% agree. I noticed how focus trees essentially just turn the game into a visual novel. I've been looking for ways to implement dynamic systems that trigger depending on a given situation and designing focus trees that take into account a variety of situations while keeping them short and numerous. Paradox recently noticed this and added focuses that take into account alt history path instead of just assuming everyone will be playing on historical. However at its essence, focus trees suggest that they are a road map of how you "should" play the game. I'm working on a modern day mod that focuses on dynamic systems and realistic interactions such as nations being alarmed when you amass a large army at a border, or the optics of your actions in a conflict (how many divisions you use, where they are, etc).

[@eliasstenman3710]

Honestly Focus Trees are my favourite mechanic. They visualize all the alternate history possibilities. When playing countries without them, even if you do in reality change history quite a lot, it doesn’t feel like it. Focus trees give the aesthetic of an Alternate History timeline with many divergent branches.

[@nuggy8268]

I agree with you

[@TheIronWorkshop]

I agree that for visualization they are a great tool, it's the waiting game I have an issue with...

[@nuggy8268]

@@TheIronWorkshop but I also don’t think instantly giving the benefits of focuses to the player instantly is a good idea. Great video though!

[@lukebeich]

@@nuggy8268 I like a lot the focus trees from mods such as Kaseirreich and OWB because they take only 35 days. They are more dynamic and engaging that way. I rather have two 35-days weaker focuses than one 70-days stronger focus.

[@Victor-el3ul]

@@lukebeich More complex focus tree with shortened timers could make the whole thing more dynamic indeed

If you try to play HoI4 mod without focus trees, literally nothing will ever happen.

[@gonavygonavy1193]

That means the system itself is badly designed. EU4, Vic2, and Hoi3 don't have these extensive focus trees, and things still happen.

[@nikitasuhina3883]

​@@gonavygonavy1193 Eu4 has the same problem, but not as pronounced as Hoi, because the number of focuses is smaller and the game does not transform in focus tree grind madness (which I saw in Hoi, a well-known Hoi streamer was literally sitting for 3 hours and grinding focuses). I am not an experienced Eu4 player, so my vision is not 100% objective, but yesterday I decided to play Castile and looked at some guides and what I found was literally a click to win focus tree with Castile. In which you gain Pu's on all parts of Spain and Naples, not by playing the game but by clicking 3 buttons and enjoying your "strategic genius". Ps: I would recommend everyone who hopes that this would change in latter games, don't. It's very simple math, I think that around 65% of Paradox player base are casual players who emphasize on simple concepts and a lot of basic flavor, because they are not interested in the game itself, but in emotional satisfaction in a setting with which they are familiar with. And secondly, as a large business a key role plays manpower and resource management. In that aspect, the most profitable concept is to make every hour that an employee works and is paid for, as much profitable as possible. Because a flavor pack is much more profitable than an expansion (it's easier and faster to create a new focus tree, than to create actual mechanics), we will see a gradual increase in the former and extinction of the later.

[@matoman69]

can you do a tutorial on how to make an event where if you capture a city you get land or win the war?

[@TheIronWorkshop]

I can't do such specific videos, you can achieve something like this by using on actions which is a topic I already have a video for. I suggest you go look it up and see how to use it to get the desired effect. Using on actions: kzbin.info/www/bejne/pHPGq4CYqs6Vl5I

[@matoman69]

@@TheIronWorkshop okay thanks!

[@TheRapLiker]

I agree, some focus trees are huge and still have 70 day focuses, you almost finish the game time by the time you finish them. Either others start a war faster, either are stronger because they go through theirs faster, either you go down a political tree and lack behind. Maybe they could insert, just like in BICE with specialized research slots, specialized focus tree slots, being able to complete 2 focuses at once.

[@PhonicArchaeology]

The fridge analogy is so on point 😂

[@beigedman4460]

I agree fully- this is a huge issue with HOI4, that so much time is spent doing nothing to improve your country. Often I just find myself reading descriptions or looking at focus icons. What I think is a good way of dealing with this is custom GUIs. New mechanics can be introduced that are more engaging and respond instantly to player interaction, like America's Congress system. The modding community has really shown what can be done, for example in Kaiserreich the Chinese alignment and coring mechanics kept me engaged while I played, and TNO's many GUIs and decisions allow for more in depth control of one's nation.

[@TheIronWorkshop]

Indeed, I think part of the reason why modding has become such a huge thing around HOI4 is the fact that players were looking for stuff to fill the time between focuses. Credit goes to Paradox for realizing that modding functions can help the community to overcome these issues but it keeps you wondering if Paradox has in a way left it to the community to do the "dirty" job for them of introducing in between focuses mechanics...

[@beigedman4460]

@@TheIronWorkshop Its possible Paradox is letting the community pick up the slack: the HOI4 team is relatively small, and its not like its uncommon practice. Just look at Bethesda for example.

[@user-hk5fo1nm9h]

I really hope VicIII doesn’t have focus trees. Imperator solidified how they really don’t work in an open context. Railroading and the kind of abstraction that hoi focuses introduce is fatal to a game like that.

[@constantinekorkousky3363]

They announced there would be no focus or mission trees

[@jelkrette1955]

Good video

[@thejimster6322]

That time part is very true, I literally never go through parts of the three that concern military development unless I have to (like to get bad of a negative National Spirit) because it takes too much time that could be spent on political bonuses, geopolitical shenanigans, and the economy.

[@HRonac]

YES ! No need for industrial focus : you have an economic system. No need for political focus : you can have a political / govnerment system. No need for research focus : it's just make you memorize focus tree, it's not gameplay. Give durable bonus or malus according to your laws, govnerment, etc. Make missions that's give you bonus & casus belli if you meet certains conditions (like EU4) : so you can have historical or ahistorical branches.

[@Prauwlet213]

no even need for that you have the justify wargoal button

[@BlueSpiceSpace]

I agree 100%, it also gives an easy out for DLC "look we have 3 new focus trees" like that doesn't really expand or change the game in any meaningful way

[@TheIronWorkshop]

I think that Paradox tried that but the backlash that followed made them change course. Players aren't stupid and they know that they can get new and quality focuses from mods so paying for a focus only DLC rightfully became a notion that players rejected.

[@BlueSpiceSpace]

Absolutely, big difference between La Resistance and Death or Dishonor

[@ghiffaribara2949]

I don't like vanilla focus tree, waiting for 70 days for a small reward is a pain. I like focus tree when it has a lot of branches, with a good description and an event that comes out after finishing it. But i hate waiting 70 days or more (great purge) just to finish it. Good thing that a lot of other mod that overhaul game set the focus duration are usually around 7 to 48. Sometimes i thought that it'll be good to have a 2 or more focus slot (like research slot), one for politics one for economy and perhaps other for military with a reduction time too but reducing the time means expanding the tree and it's a lot of work

[@qazdr6]

dang dude you really got me on that fridge thing.

[@TheIronWorkshop]

We all do it :D

[@Arranus]

I have multiple ideas on how to improve foucs trees, but one of them I want to shear the most. one Idea is to make them aims instead of focuses for example instead of foucses cliaming latvia you as the player have to claim Latvia to complete the focus and get reward for doing that if you don't do a focus in order the reward will be smaller and if the player completes it too late the reward will be smaller.

[@PhonicArchaeology]

The reliance on epic focus trees is real. I put off playing the ULTRA mod because the focus tree looked essentially the same as vanilla. I can now honestly say it’s one of the best mods I’ve ever played.

[@privateman5274]

Have you reviewed Kaiserredux: A Kaiserrich Expansion? And if not I do recommend it. It is one of my favourite total conversion mods for HOI4.

[@TheIronWorkshop]

Interesting, will take a look. Thanks :)

[@AhhLewis]

you playing rt56 in background?

[@SkYHawK2600]

I think most of the paths are just a straight lines you follow of your choosing. Shat I mean is that, let's look at the Spain. First you gotta pick 2 sides of the paths, then split them in to 3 paths and follow that path till the end. Looks incredibly detailed from outside but it's actually pretty shallow. You just follow the path of a visual novel that gives you different endings. Remember those books, yeah, something like that. I would change this by splitting them to different categories and make them actual "focus" like bunch "political, internal, external, industrial, military, naval, air, innovation" and maybe even more focuses. I would also keep them short and separated much as I can, so no following a path. For example "how do you want to deal with this problem, like this or this", "How do you want to improve your industry, like this or this". No long paths to follow and priority is up to you. Maybe I wanna focus on my internal affairs and economy, maybe I wanna focus on my navy and industry etc. If I wanna get those civilian factories I don't want to get "radar boost" first or if I want that research slot I don't wanna build AA and military factory.

[@afaultytoaster]

What are some focus trees that are done well, in vanilla or otherwise

[@Pan-be3vv]

I feel like making the focus trees bigger and more in depth BUT with shorter time needed to finish them (35 days each for example) is the way to go? The game becomes more dynamic that way. Also I think that the focuses themselves are not the problem - it's rather the absence of something to do while they are being researched. If the game had some other missions and (entertaining) mechanics to take care of, then I couldn't care less about 70 day focuses.

[@literallyagalaxy7789]

I agree with you. I have a weak laptop and playing Hearts of Iron IV is just a waiting for me. A focus tree system rework would be very good.

[@MetoFulcurm]

Hey, what mods can you suggest that doesn't have a big dependence on focus trees?

[@manst8079]

I agree especially on the internal politcs, even in mods with great focus trees, they all amount to "do you want more stability or more PP?" (looking at you KR). And speaking on the broader scope of national focuses, they are effectively decisions with a set requirement but a delayed payoff (the waiting game you speak off), this was fine at realease since HOI4 didn't have decisions at all, but now that they're here, and they're AMAZING (seriously, the way decisions work in this game is perfect, you can do so much!), you could easily convert more than 50% of NFs to decisions, expand them with the added functionalities they bring, and you would have already improved the game a lot. Also pls pdx make a proper politics and improved factions systems so at least all the wacky alt-history stuff can work properly and not be derailed 6 months into the game.

[@ellingweme]

Which mod is this in the background??

[@mrbraziliam]

I agree with you, but the irony is the most fun part of hoi4 modding is the focus tree

[@coconutgaming9931]

NICE the worst is proggraming those

[@theendoftheworldhasbeenqui2485]

when focus trees are good, they are really good. but, so often many focuses are just here is some free PP, here is 2 infrastructure, here is 1 free off map factory, and although they do feel good to get as bonuses they're just kind of there, and bland as fuck. I like focus trees that deal a lot with the internal politics, which paradox really does seem to be focusing on a lot more these days (though lets not get into a debate about alt history monarchist paths jesus christ). for instance the spanish civil war and the build up to it, taking those focuses really feels like you're guiding the nation and prepping for shit to go down. I agree when you say that focus trees are railroaded, but frankly with a ww2 game you kind of want that. a little alt history here and there adds spice to the war you already know, but when I play France I don't want to just be sitting around twiddling my thumbs wondering if Germany will ever attack, I am there because I know Germany will attack me and I know historically France fell so I want to try and subvert that. the focus trees are a way of doing that, and a clear branching system that allows not just for the AI to be directed to act out this grand complex game of geo politics that frankly no game AI is advanced enough to do yet, that's just the reality here, but it's what you want to see with some bounds for deviation that you can turn off.

[@Transtiraspol]

Always hated focus trees. It makes people not play the actual game. Now, it could be a good tool to simulate things that there are no mechanics for, however, they have a critical flaw in their linearity. A better implementation, though still linear, are the instant bonuses in EU4, where you can see conditions you should try to fullfill in gameplay, this can highlight certain fun possibilites. However I can imagine it is more demanding for the AI.

[@muse5722]

I know this sounds dumb but I think having both missions and focuses would have helped. Like, a remilitarize rhineland focus followed by a rebuild army mission? idk

[@antaresone2323]

I usually like focus trees I agree that time is an issue especially when it is 1943 or something when my computer starts slowing down and it feels like an eternity

[@nikomylnikov4540]

focus trees do have their flaws but this is what the game needs to run, just look at mods without focus trees developed, nothing actually happens

[@TheIronWorkshop]

Well that depends on mods now doesn't it?

[@nikomylnikov4540]

@@TheIronWorkshop yes but the point im trying to make is that without focus trees (i do agree that they can be time consuming) nothing would happen

[@sirpixeli]

Hello there, could you please help me with my hoi 4 mod i've created, its working when i want to play it but when i upload it o steam or paradox interactive, in wouln'd work anymore. Could you help me with this? Thank you

[@TheIronWorkshop]

If your mod works on your local machine no reason for it not to work via Steam, I suggest you try to recreate the mod files (launcher ---> create mod) put the files there and try to reupload. If it still doesn't work than it is a launcher/Steam issue and you should contact their support to solve this problem.

[@sirpixeli]

Thank you

[@rekordny1215]

Hi, I have some questions about modding, where can I find your contact?

[@TheIronWorkshop]

You can join the Iron Workshop Discord and ask questions there: discord.gg/sSCU3WS

[@MetoFulcurm]

Maybe the focus tree should be like the research tree which means you can have focus slots. It doesn't make sense to make a choice between political and industrial or military actions. I think things should be handled more with decisions.

[@thenumbers2916]

Some of them are really game changing or move the game forward, while others are basically research options with extra steps

[@rosameltrozo5889]

I can't agree more

[@pillbox2079]

I am very much liking the focus tree system. The problem is that Paradox is not utilizing it properly. There has been some shift in how they use them from DLC to DLC but overall they fallow the same patern. Your nation is weak, fix it, increase your industry, gain some wargoals/make a faction, go to war. That can be just the time period the game is set it. I think a political and economic system similar to Victoria II would be amazing and it will reduce the need for kick ass focus trees that take months to do them properly. But, is the system gonna be historical for all nations if it is implemented? Focus trees provide you with a strict historical path and give you events, decisions and politicians to choose from to make your gameplay as you wish. I don't think they should remove the focus trees, just utilize them better.

[@someorclad9738]

For me personally, while I agree a new system should be used just like Stellaris did, I honestly enjoy focus trees very much. To me, they provide extensive roleplay mechanics, and if you create a custom nation or a huge fan of anime like me, the focus tree can be transformed into a very good story telling mechanic. My own personal mod uses the focus tree to tell the story of a Japanese Caesar conquering China, slaughtering the Americans and taking the fight to the West Coast, and finally seizing control of the Imperial throne, before the empire of the Rising Sun was put into a second Sengoku Jidai. His story is detailed in every part of the tree, from his legion fighting against the Soviets and earning exp, subduing a Chinese fortress and earning pp and compliance gain as a result, political infighting with various factions thus reducing stability, and many more. His story is basically a combination between Grifith from Berserk and Char Aznable from Gundam. Focus tree are very good roleplay, especially if you make your own. But yeah, gameplay wise, its a load of shit. TLDR: While flawed, focus trees are awesome.

[@jose.d7666]

to be honest i'd rather have a complex diplomatic and politic mechanic than focus trees. Hoi 4 is a fun game but it's oversimplified in every aspect that is not war (at least if you don't want to spend double the price of the base game on DLC's). With more control over your political views (maybe similar to vic 2) where you can decide on a few laws and views on the world the game could be more fun and along ideology it could be a very simple way to start developing a real diplomatic system to interact with other nations, it could be similar to how traits work in CK2 or CK3 adding penalties or bonuses to the opinion of other countries depending on your laws and views. For example: autarchich economy VS free market, expansionism VS pacifism, progressivism VS traditionalism...these are just a few examples but you could make the system as complex as you want, because every view can be deconstructed in more basic ones: you can be a traditionalist country but pacifist, or a democracy with a party in power that only grants basic rights to women, a expansionist communist regime or a secluded one (similar to NK or Albania)...the list is infinite. Just imagine how a system like this one could improve replayability and "what if" scenarios. XX century was a time of changing political views and brutal fights between ideologies, it's sad that the first one isn't well represented in the game

[@chrisgaming9567]

I just hate how many focuses are mutually exclusive, especially when there's no reason for them to be

[@TheIronWorkshop]

*cough* replayability *cough*

[@marcellommunoz]

To me the biggest problem with Focus Trees is that they need to be created for each country and they give a lot of bonuses, if you play someone with a generic tree and someone with unique tree they are on a completely different level. IMO, they should've reworked the generic trees to be better and fit the majors instead of trying to rework every country tree but now that they've almost did it for the entire world it's too late.

[@mooripo]

This exactly what made me cheat since I no longer have the time to play as much as I do now that I work and can barely manage 2 hours daily !

[@sohrabroozbahani4700]

Well in the wise words of her highness Kamea Arano:" a hero, sacrifices more, compromises less..." HOI4 for definitely is not a hero between all the fabulous paradox games, it does a lot of compromises to circumvent technical difficulties instead of thoroughly dealing with them and focus trees are a monumental example of that, instead of spending time and money to build a descent AI to actually deal with the myriad of political priorities that is supposed to motivate the countries toward certain actions, they just preprogram few storylines for each country and not even all of them and dice their path through, it takes absolutely no processing power and simplifies the AI decision making, what it gives away as a mechanic to players you may ask? Freebies and eye candies... as if games like Victoria 2 or EU3 didn't work fine while really making your grey ones rev...

[@eggisfun4217]

I like focus tree's

[@JamazVu]

I dont agree with this or atleast with the first part of the video and the "Focus tree are a time killing device"... FT are literally research (for your country, similar to technologies, maybe something like political or government research?) and research takes time, ingame and IRL too, so why is that something to complain about? . I can understand its a "waste of time" if you play a minor or very small nation ,but if you play a mid or big nation, you wont have time to micromanage so many aspects of the game (unless you play in speed 3 or less)

[@wytzevanderveer6351]

I definitely wish politics wasn't so contingent on focuses; if you "played" as a political party onstead of as a nation, it would provide both acceptable railroading while not locking you 100% into a perfectly fixed trajectory.

[@johnjoe592]

based chad

[@user-hk5fo1nm9h]

God I hate the espionage system.

[@captain_tess]

I understand what your saying but I almost feel like asking for some sort of political system you can use all the time is asking to much, that is an entire system that would need to be heavily balanced as well as I can not name a single game where a.i. are actually good at politics, the focus tree fixes that problem, not entirely, but it at least means that the a.i. are trying to do something logical, rather than relying on an a.i. which would end up being annoying. As well as that the focus tree is there to tell a story, which is why I think people like it, or at least that is my reasoning. If you left it up to even the best a.i. I feel like the game would just look like a mess. Sorry for the long comment but the video got me thinking.

[@generalisofficial]

Focus Trees are absolutely horrible, decisions are great.

[@benismann]

Why i personally hate focus trees is cos its railroading. HOI4 is THE MOST railroaded grand strategy (except maybe stellaris coz i have no idea about it) and this is boring

[@Arvidus89]

Focus trees should be more dynamic. TNO-mod has a good spin on the mechanic, where more and different options are presented as the situation changes for your nation and the world. Otherwise; being able to see far down in your tree is sort of a spoiler. The one strength of focus trees is that they can act as long-term planning, in combination with events and decisions of which can act as the short-term counterpart. With further development and fixes, focus trees can work much better.