The TRUTH About BVR In War Thunder...

[@SeekerHead]

If this comment gets 500 likes I’ll deactivate windows

[@wartheunderbro]

If my comment gets 20 likes I’ll activate windows (I haven’t activated in a year)

[@xx_lightning_xx5781]

And if you activate windows I'll reward you with choco milk 🫕

[@EricThyKaiser]

DEW IT! TURN TO THE DARK SIDE!

[@bestatom0902]

i will use your code on the GAIJIN STORE if you activate windows

[@railgunduck]

Double down, get a more expansive version without activating

[@JULIAN11.]

You know the F-4F ICE is bad when it doesn't even show in the 'cope' side of the thumbnail Edit: Having tried the F4F ICE/KWS it wasn't that bad. Is still a Phantom at (practically) 13.0 but you can stock grind until you get AMRAAMS by rocketing bases pretty easily; once you get AMRAAMS is relatively fun to play. Not the best top tier by any kind of metric but relatively fun to play; at least until people learn how to play in a FOX-3 meta

[@sleepyheadgaming.]

This may be a very unpopular opinion but it's actually usable, I'm a pretty bad player and it's poor performance has actually helped me learn new ways to use the phantom airframe and it's one of the few top tier planes I have an over 1/1 kdr

[@sadfrog5787]

it's completely ass lmao ​@@sleepyheadgaming.

[@janomomo153]

​@@sleepyheadgaming.Of course it's usable, the armament makes the plane at top tier. Doesn't mean that it isn't just objectively worse than just about any other Fox 3 slinger, other than the Harriers, probably

[@sleepyheadgaming.]

@@janomomo153 fair, tbh it's the only fox3 using plane I have.

[@T95man]

F4 ice really isn’t bad. You use it bad. It’s not meant to dog fighter. It’s a great missile platform. Why is that so hard to play

[@arbitercs]

the fucking tree pics are hilarious lmao, i never paid attention to it

[@alextonev3017]

ikr 80 meter tree is absolutely ludicrus

[@remagdak]

It's so nice to know that an F-14 slinging all of his AIM-54 at the beginning of the match is now meta not only because of the fact that you are now forced to use chaff to evade it but also because it now has the best br bracket, 1.3 below top tier. Not mentioning it faces planes like the Su-22M3 with 12 countermeasures.

[@Layd36]

Lol just admit you westerners won with your western propaganda and your nation is going to be the new bvr king like how it was with f-14 top gun maverick 🇺🇸🦅💩🤮

[@-..----.--.-...]

Or J35XS WITHOUT RWR 💀

[@СергейНикольский-я2ц]

@@-..----.--.-...well, Su-22 and early MiG’s (such as 21bis) are not so far from the 35XS, their RWR don’t have launch notification/range and show only 4 directions without showing distance so Phoenix’s just don’t trigger their RWR))

[@contemptordreadnought]

​@@СергейНикольский-я2цThe mig 23 MLA uses the same rwr as the mig 21 bis and it always faces the f14a. It sucks

[@mavor101]

Yea, the BR for tomcat has always been incorrect, but now it's just even worse because it avoids the Fox-3 dogpile completely and get's nearly continuous downtiers with *by far* the best 11.7 missile loadout in the game.

[@vibecu]

I need a Marker with the distances to the ground, not the sea, man I become a boat with the sea when I was a "30m" of altitude

[@LEFTY073]

I know at least some aircraft have radar altimeters in the cockpits that work but yeah it would be nice to have it displayed in 3rd person view.

[@SirCabooseCCCP]

this, it would be so nice if there was an option to show sea level height and radar height, similar to how you can have IAS and TAS shown at the same time having both the altuitude then radar altitude would be a massive help

[@UkeoerD]

Use WTRTI

[@SirCabooseCCCP]

@@UkeoerD huh

[@orinjnanu2924]

​​@@SirCabooseCCCPhuh. its a program that reads and displays other stats for your plane including radar altitude, climb rate, etc. just looked into it

[@Deathsmile69]

activate windows

[@ImplicitFlower]

MASSGRAVE

[@kingghidorah8106]

@@ImplicitFlower came here to say this, thank goodness people know.

[@ImplicitFlower]

@@kingghidorah8106 oh some of us know 🏴‍☠️

[@Anarcho-harambeism]

​@@ImplicitFlowerhar har fiddle de de

[@quackanator166]

its not about massgrave, its about protest

[@TheSIyFox]

I've been preaching the new stock grind terror. This was especially prevalent during my KWS stock grind. You are literally flying an inferior airframe, shooting inferior missiles, with no chaff. Your experience is either spawn, fight, die or spawn, defend, fly around begging for scraps or strafing ground targets. It's actually so demoralizing.

[@dreccasawa9975]

Stock grind is the worst it's ever been now. ... But why would Gaijin change it? Tons of people will continue to GE the new planes and their modifications in the first week of the patch either way. If it gives them money... ... But really, it would be different if that wasn't the case.

[@thatcarguydom266]

@@dreccasawa9975 spaded play is the easiest it’s been in a long time Stock grind is absolutely scuffed though

[@RayBarK1]

Yeah the amount of salt I farm after aim120… hundreds of splashes

[@terraflare2962]

ye when i saw this update coming i pretty much just lost all motivation to keep grinding to the latest su27 or mig29

[@Raiders1917]

The AV8B is in the same boat, really. You are stuck with 2 9Ls until you get to tier 3, and you will always be a subsonic. As soon as I got the AMRAAMs it completely changed the plane.

[@ClankerWanker]

Regarding the splash damage issue, correct me if I’m wrong but every fox 3 missile in the game other than the pheonix uses a continuous rod warhead. There’s a metal ring thats been bent in a zig zag around the explosive charge, and when that charge detonates, the ring becomes superheated and expands in a kind of cone of death, sawing the planes in half. If a missile proxy fuses onto the ground due to multipathing it is literally impossible for this cone of damage to harm the target aircraft. The pheonix is the only fox 3 that actually uses explosive fragmentation because it’s not effective on those smaller missiles, and the pheonix at the end of the day was designed to kill sea skimming cruise missiles. I still don’t think that the pheonix splash should be so large for balance reasons though. This would be something we can bug report

[@SeekerHead]

I believe you’re correct

[@ВячеславФролов-д7я]

Even a traditional missile warhead is a shaped explosive, that launches shrapnel in one direction (like a claymore mine)

[@jaek_898]

War Thunder has modeled Bluetooth fragmentation obviously. The fragments are transferred wirelessly to the nearest aircraft when the missile hits the ground.

[@ClankerWanker]

@@jaek_898 lmfao

[@SuperRameil]

Ya but the missiles are hitting in front of the target so the cone of explosion reflects off the ground and up into the belly of the plane. This is only really apparent if you are hugging the ground say 10m or below and there is plenty of explosive mass for it to rip apart your plane. It's literally a bomb going off under your plane, if it reflects and hits in front you are done. Other times if it hits behind it would do anything.

[@Amtaw08735]

i think that with smaller teams, there will be less missile spam, but also it means that there is potential that one person can shoot fox 3s at every member of the other team which is pretty silly to think about. But being actually able to notch effectively would be a dream!!!

[@SeekerHead]

Having a missile for every member of the enemy team is a good thing. You as an individual could theoretically solo the entire enemy team if you play better. That’s how it should be.

[@AfroAviator626]

Tragic

[@musclife7232]

This game can't handle so much chaos. 10x10 wars and having 2 fox3s in each plane are pretty sweet games. It eliminates unnecessary spam in the air and sidewinders and balls still dominate. My goal is to stay strong at the end of the game, not to see how much I killed in 2 seconds.

[@seductive_fishstick8961]

@@SeekerHeadI agree but I think what they meant is the F-15C and take 8 aim120s so at the start of an 8v8 match every F-15 on your team could fire 1 missile per-person then just RTB. Ofc smaller team sizes would be better, this is just more of an observation

[@chwedcheesebgr]

​@SeekerHead if you solo the enemy team, then your team gets easily soloed with it being a trade indicating a lack of skill and just missle spamming. TTA whether it be AB or RB is a mess rn

[@Loudward__]

Well you used to be able to cope by multipathing while stock grinding or when you have low cm planes.

[@SeekerHead]

This user watched the video 😎

[@thatcarguydom266]

In such cases it seems you gotta kinda let the BVR jets slug it out and do the clean up act once most of the F3s are used up

[@nikolaideianov5092]

Stock grind has always been shit For an example look at the f14 2 aim9D at 11.7

[@justiceforjeller]

@@nikolaideianov5092 yeah the F14A stock grind is exceptionally bad, i think pre patch it probably took the title of worst ingame but i dont think it even comes close to as bad as grinding a legacy top tier nowadays look at how long an Su-27 needs to grind before even getting a SARH

[@nikolaideianov5092]

@@justiceforjeller i think all planes sould get their best missile stock even if its only 2 of them It would help with all the stock bs They did it for the top tiers at least But for some reason you still need to unlock aim9l for full loadout of them before you can unlock the same thing with aim9m

[@No_Feelings]

Just like the night battle slider, the smaller battles toggle is simply the illusion of choice.

[@Palpatine_e_sua_geminha]

No one is talking about how shit the derby and r-darter is, it's almost impossible to hit anything 15 km or more, and I never hit anything above 20 km, this thing is lofting to space and some people still think the derby is a good missile...

[@FakeVuutor]

Worst fox-3 by far

[@OiOi-Jim]

I’ve been using the Darter at 15 miles and it’s working completely fine for me, just make sure you’re holding lock until the missile reaches its own lock-range, help out the missile as much as possible and it will perform.

[@Palpatine_e_sua_geminha]

@@OiOi-Jim I'm doing it, but in the replay I can see that thing lofting too much, I use the tws lock and it still continues, I tried pointing the nose down but it still lofts to the space

[@OiOi-Jim]

@@Palpatine_e_sua_geminha yeah I will say it lofts way too much at short range as well, like unnecessarily high, but considering it pulls Gs like mad, it still manages to hit.

[@niksonrex88]

Yeah i only got kills at below 10km with it.

[@tedrogers3363]

Completely agree with you but id refuse to play the smaller matches unless they proportionally increase rewards per kill, otherwise you are just shooting yourself in the foot just so you can do bvr

[@TonedVirus3]

I get fucked in normal matches, so having the smaller games could let me actually ground strike in an A10 for a bit before getting raped.

[@Alextz_Gr]

RP rewards are already not dependant on kills but rather activity and time. Most of the time, smaller matches mean longer games, or at least same amount of time (becouse players from both teams would survive more), so RP rewards would actually increase. SL rewards per match might be less tho

[@Hazey652]

I just recently stock grinded my F15C all the way to 120's and let me tell you it was one of the most painful experiences I have had the pleasure to go through in this game.

[@danpurcell404]

Suffering though it with the F-15J(M) rn

[@СергейНикольский-я2ц]

Yeah, F-15C was kinda painful but it became OK with 7M’s (2-3 kills per game) and it gets it almost immediately (2nd mod right after 9L’s) and then I stock grinded the 27SM and god, THAT was a true pain, you can’t DF a thing cause of its FM (not to mention that you have to merge to DF which is rather hard to do rn), 73’s are useful only inside 0.5km range, 27ER is literally the last modification before 77’s. I think the only plane that is more painful to stock grind is the F-4F ICE (I don’t have it yet so can’t tell for sure but I really think so)

[@rodneycook3674]

I hope they fix the wobble on the missiles.

[@jfd9616]

I don't, it looks funny

[@batlax18]

Right? Like the Derby would have a lot more range, but it really wobbles, same for the MICA, and others. And before you say the Derby has bad range because of the lofting, no, the lofting doesn’t do much for reducing it, in fact, it’s the only reason it can hit 20 mile shots right now

[@rodneycook3674]

@@batlax18 yeah the loft is just detrimental right now because of the wobble. It looses all the energy it gains from the loft

[@batlax18]

@@rodneycook3674 exactly! That is the perfect way to say it! And the lofting will actually be an advantage at BVR, so when they update the wobbling it could very well be the best or second best BVR missile, while being more maneuverable and lighter than the AMRAAM

[@JohnWT08]

I entered this update thinking all nations were going to be played now for their diverse missiles, but when i saw that all the teams were just the entire US airforce somethings off because some missiles other nations have should be better than the amraam but the amraam acts like the ace combat missile you cant avoid...

[@alexturnbackthearmy1907]

Yeah, it gets to silly things like AAM-4 (which is close to Aim120C, that was its "inspiration") being worse then *120A!* which should never be the case. Before the update i thought that americans were ripped off with Aim120A. But then gjn decided to buff it beyond belief.

[@areyou0k98]

​@@alexturnbackthearmy1907 I mean amraam is "him." It is the missile that defined how modern jet combat would eventually play out. Every other fox 3 in game is a early to late 2000s missile, wouldn't make sense to have a 80s amraam be crappy having to compete with missiles that are amraam c level.

[@alexturnbackthearmy1907]

@@areyou0k98 It doesnt compete with them. Aim120A, is beating upgraded versions of itself. Its about as good as aim9e being better then aim9d or j somehow, it just shouldnt.

[@Brzzzyexe]

@@alexturnbackthearmy1907 the aam-4 is not an upgraded amraam they're different missiles entirely

[@Tentacl]

It's not just the missiles, USA radars are the best.

[@ZeePanzer]

Gaijin will only listen if phly daily come out and male a video about it, its sad but we are aleays stuck with a mediocre game that we love.

[@Layd36]

Lol you westerners surely only love this game cause western propaganda finally worked for you people after year of being bullied by Russian bias 😂

[@robertgaudet7407]

He’s been bitching about a lot of this stuff too, and good for him.

[@saplingseedsaccrew3143]

The three biggest issues with smaller match sizes is 1. Stock grinding will be harder: If you believe that smaller matches will maximize the effect one player can make on the outcome of a battle then trying to stock grind planes will be even more challenging as you can't hide amongst the larger player counts duking it out giving you ample time to farm RP from ground targets and bases. If you try to fight enemies, good luck with those two IR missiles you have and even if stock radar missiles became a thing to fix this issue you have less cover of ally players using spaded vehicles to distract enemies to giving you an advantage in killing an unsuspecting player with you subpar load out (less or worse stock missiles). Smaller matches yes could reduce the congestion of missiles flying through the air in one match but without the cover of larger player counts you will be targeted by enemies twice as much and be forced to do nothing but go cold. 2. Less rewarding gameplay: Less players means less rewards in a single match making the grind much less rewarding. High kill games will be much harder to pull off and overall you'll spend more time grinding. 3. Everyone is already begging for a feature they don't know how it will handle: Before the update came out people were begging for multi path to be outright removed and even at 60M radar missiles are ultra lethal and now a lot of people are complaining about the multi path changes being unnecessary. "SKILL ISSUE!" the LARPers say as they kill the stock plane just trying to destroy AI ground targets. Point is that before begging for Gaijin to add a feature outright there should be a testing period to get a feel for how matches will be like with less player counts before Gaijin makes it a feature. Unless Gaijin gives players the option to select their desired match making preference: 8v8, 10v10, 12v12, 14v14, 16v16 only matches, its not a good idea to have the matchmaking shifted back to smaller matches unless players have the choice of what they want to play. Some people want 10v10, some people want 8v8, and some people still like 16v16.

[@admiralbimback2062]

Weren't there smaller matches at the dev server at one point? I think most people liked them then.

[@potatouno]

​@@admiralbimback2062Dev server has 5x rp booster, that's why everyone liked it, grinding in it was easy asf

[@No_Feelings]

​@@potatouno​ im on the staff team for 2 mid sized war thunder CCs and the vast majority of the people in their communities preferred smaller matches because it let them feel like their performance impacted the outcome of the match directly. Not a single person paid attention to RP because it was the dev server, so it was completely irrelevant. Im not sure where you got the idea that "everyone" had the same incorrect analysis as you.

[@Rek1emMScar]

man you have point a good one... I remember a lot of CC crying about Multipath and how it was a bad thing... Now they "remove" they see how bad the idea was.. But still trying to make somehow That there its a better way... These same PoS of people was the one that wanted BIGGER map... But now no one like EC trash map that gaijin give us. Well now with fox3 it make sense to have bigger map..back then? nah it was fucking stupid. Its like retard still glorify the old propel meta of side climb that was utterly trash. I was of the idea of EC game mode but with RB control. EC its a fun mode that take a lot of time but it have thing to do for everyone that are way better than the current Team deathmatch. for people that really want 5v5 bullshit they just should ask gaijin for a "competitive" mode. Ala counter strike... Were no stock plane can't enter and pre select plane can enter. Just like in event... so finally these bastard will stop coping.

[@potatouno]

@@No_Feelings Proved my point? No one paid attention to RP and no one was able to realize how miserable the stock grind was going to be, simply because it isn't a thing in dev servers.

[@elitely6748]

Thank you I've been trying to play the US F-15A and grind F-15C I had to learn how to noch/chaff then go cold again and it does help a little tbh. But there comes a point where there's simply NOTHING one can do in the chaos of 16v16 when either too many missiles shot at once or a fox3 just got shot at you at 10km. *When you finally finish evading a fox3 you're far from the battle and its already half over* As for why Gaijin keeps taking so much time to add smaller matches, one issue could be the amount of servers they'd need to add which costs *money*

[@Zyglyuk]

Also can help split-s away from enemy and stick to the ground, that all missiles aimed at you will be at you rear half-sphere and likely to end in the ground, somewhere far behind you. I used it many times on AV8B plus, and it appears to be more reliable than notch for me. Helped against several missiles aimed at me, and even few times, when missiles were fired within 5-8km from me, but you need enough altitude for such a trick. If i don't mix anything up, and you've already used it )

[@Brzzzyexe]

don't you love the gameplay loop that forces you to fly defensively for half the match while your team either completely curbstomps or gets curbstomped and you make no progress because you get nothing for flying defensively all game

[@shamgamer3915]

Imagine using a plane like a kfir or something with like 30 countermeasures and only ir missiles 💀

[@cofro3284]

Imagine having a stock MiG21Bis and running into a spaded F14 or F16...

[@maxbebr6709]

@@cofro3284 Infinitely better than having a f16 with 2 aim9ps and no chaff run into fox 3 slingers every other game

[@creepincreepy261]

@@maxbebr6709 12.0 rarely gets uptiers to 13.0.

[@mavor101]

@@cofro3284 There is a reason no-one plays the 21BIS anymore. :D

[@I_amDinosaur]

My viggen has REAR ASPECT missiles and faces F14s nearly every game. Not to mention the 35XS doesn't even have RWR and faces F14s every game. lmao what a joke this update is.

[@die_glocken]

US mains at top tier Air RB are the equivalent of USSR mains at top tier Ground RB.

[@phoenixmapping932]

someone who gets it

[@pliat]

Except ussr isnt good in top tier GRB

[@Brzzzyexe]

@@pliat *cat laughing while pointing at you gif*

[@pliat]

@@Brzzzyexe you think USSR is meta or what?

[@iota515]

@@Brzzzyexe Leopard 2A7 and its alternatives are literally better than any russian tank in literally every aspect except side protection

[@AverageWTPilot]

2:52 Thank god seek, the amount of people telling me to just get good and notch is actually insane

[@SeekerHead]

Elitism

[@thatcarguydom266]

@@SeekerHeadalmost like there’s been people saying that for ages now but only just now is it acceptable to War Thunder Redditors to hold this opinion. We have had similar issues from IR missiles as a result of team sizes and all anybody got told was “skill issue just flare” when there’s OVER 150 MISSILES IN PLAY How is anyone supposed to keep up with that? I’m happy people are finally coming to this realization but hate the amount of bullshit the “prophets” had to go through before the elitists finally got punched in the face with this shit To answer your question about multipathing, yes, absolutely because at least then all SARH missiles would be usable and not exclusively the R-27ER, even if it’d still dominate. Multipath made sparrows completely goddamn useless while the R-27ER could at least use datalink and inertial guidance, so yes, I think multipath should’ve been fixed far earlier. It also would’ve further highlighted the problem with 16v16 matches sooner, and who knows? We might’ve gotten an actual solution by now instead of a toggle that doesn’t even work

[@brokenstarship]

the're absolute idiots

[@T95man]

So true

[@TotallyNotDelta]

It truly is a mystery why the people saying that never provide their own gameplay to show how it's done, isn't it?

[@elkrumb9159]

BVR LARPers doesn’t understand this isn’t DCS and that war thunders gameplay doesn’t work currently with this BVR larp fest that is top tier currently, they can’t it trough their head that 16v16 is not realistic at all, I’ve tried to explain that meshing realistic features with the ace combat furballs we have doesn’t work well

[@nick4754]

I know it's very popular to suggest that the ace combat furballs are a bad thing but I truly believe that if warthunder was to cut its player count to 6v6 for all BRs and get rid of air spotting (bc that's something reddit wants apparently) you'd see a 40% reduction in player count because the casuals that keep a game alive couldn't compete anymore and would just leave There's a reason nobody outside of warthunder and DCS players know about DCS but that most people who play video games have at least heard of warthunder

[@CommanderV5955]

Yh I mean in dcs you have to spend money on a high resolution f-18 or smth, in war thunder you can spend fricking 75$ on a Top tier premium and then you still have to sit there and grind for like 3 days straight (if all you do is grind all day)

[@chrissjduebochsjd3120]

Cope

[@TonedVirus3]

​@chrissjduebochsjd3120 you're the only one being rude here, so I think you're coping

[@elkrumb9159]

@@nick4754 that’s not all what Reddit wants, I’ve been there they don’t want that, Sim exists for a reason, but the problem is that 16v16 is bad for the game, 12v12 is so much better, back when they were testing out severe damage the 6v6s were amazing I was actually dogfighting people it was great, but lowering it would be fine or having an option to chose like 8v8 10v10 etc would also be good and there more than enough people for that

[@H-cranky]

fully agree with you. i cant be bothered to grind for the f15j msip and f4f ice because top tier with current f15j and mig 29g seems impossible to play because everyone has fox 3s except me

[@-..----.--.-...]

First you need to grind 420k rp for a new aircraft, then you will need ~110k rp to get fox 3. And I have absolutely no idea how are you supposed to spade f-4f ice without fox 3...

[@H-cranky]

@@-..----.--.-... same bro. Its so fucking frustrating. Gaijin should really be giving 2 stock fox 3s to every top tier jet

[@derritter3873]

I ended up grinding the F-15J MSIP mostly with my F-15J, and I will say, it wasn’t too bad. (I did NOT base bomb btw). It may have been because other people were doing a lot of base bombing, but all I did was fly high and smack people flying low with Aim-7s because it’s surprising how many people just don’t look up. I only went 80% of the F-15J(M)‘s rp and did the last ~20% with the EJ Kai, and that was a lot more of a forgiving br range now that 13.0 is top tier. Tldr; if you ever do feel like you have the energy and fortitude to grind the F-15J MSIP, use the F-4EJ Kai. With the lower multipathing height, people don’t see the Aim-7s coming.

[@admiralbimback2062]

@@derritter3873 The F15J being only 12.3 kinda saves it.

[@H-cranky]

@@derritter3873 ill try the kai then

[@doorknobsoup]

The reason why nobody talks about multipathing IRL is because its an unreliable method of defeating missiles. I'll make no arguments here against or in favor of multipathing in warthunder, but strictly speaking IRL: In "The Performance of Semi-Active Radar Missiles Against Sea Skimming Targets" by D. Ciampa and D. Bucco, the conclusion states "although multipath returns are impacting on the predicted target position, average behaviour tends to the true target position. Any significant deviations from the true target position are extremely transient and are damped by the missile response time." And also the graphs in the paper only seem to cover the heights 30m, 15m, and 5m. Which would suggest you need to be at most 30m off the ground to take effect.

[@robertgaudet7407]

Modern missiles also filter out the ground reflection automatically,

[@KaptaynAmeryka]

I'd like smaller matches, multipath / multipath fading to work like it does in reality, trees to be fixed, countermeasures to be stock, and the mig29g to be dropped to match up with other SARH-only aircraft.

[@TeamValkyrie2023]

Agreed. 29g needs to go to 12.3 max

[@conmanmedia1739]

I solemnly believe a really cool game mode would be a interception type of game mode utilizing multiple air spawns on an ec map, the air spawns although would only allow two players to spawn at each, allowing players to have a wingman to effectively take down the other enemy wingmen squads by using good teamwork.

[@badasstasticusbadass4908]

Sometimes I wish that War Thunder could implement like a "Muti-option" type of engagement, like... remember the OG Halo games? Where you could play shotguns only, Sniper Rifles only, Rocket Launcher Only and so on. Imagine if you could make a game that only allows R73s or AIM 9s where you have to rely on your dogfighting skills, or matches going full long range BVR matches with no close range missiles.

[@PyroBlonde7777]

Gaijin could have given us Enduring Confrentation mode for Air RB. People would be able to respawn as much as they want. That way, if you get splashed by a Fox-3, you can still get out there and do something. The idea of people using modern aircraft to gun-fight seems silly to me. What's the point of flying these planes if you're not going to use their actual weapons? I think players should start playing low BR jets again if that's the gameplay they desire.

[@Creepus_Explodus]

@@PyroBlonde7777 EC was a thing in 2017 or 18. It was removed because people liked it too much. It's much harder for gaijin to sell premiums when people have fun grinding. Also low BR jets have been made near unplayable due to compression imo.

[@PyroBlonde7777]

@Creepus_Explodus I know why Gaijin refuses to add EC. That being said, EC is still playable in Sim mode at least. Can't say I agree with your statement on early jets. The F80 at 7.0 is still excellent. The Sabre vs MiG15 battles are still very fun and balanced. The F104A is the only jet that really beats up on subsonics.

[@MeowMeowMeowMeowMeowMeowMeowww]

@@PyroBlonde7777 Man, Flying F-16 and Mig-29 without there attachable weaponry is still a whole different experience then Saber and Mig-15. Alone the speed difference. Seriously, what you just said is like saying early WW2 Biplanes and late war Propeplanes are the same experience.

[@loneirregular1280]

Thats the thing. There are actually crazy people out there who do exactly like that, going against 4th gen aircraft in by planes, with guns only. The extreme good turn radii and speed of props might prove a bit more difficult to handle for many jets that have quite large turning radii. With the jets you do a variety of boom and zoom against a prop but dogfighting wise, youd be shocked.​@MeowMeowMeowMeowMeowMeowMeowww

[@AverageWTPilot]

Absolute Stellar video that really drives home the changes that need to be made!

[@jman4062]

To me, there are 2 big issues in fixing War Thunder gameplay: A) the Gaijin test team acts like video game modders (from my own experience modding) where you make an incredibly detailed and high-effort mechanic and 'test' it to see it functioning but never actually play the game to see if it is actually fun or engaging - and it is clear from dev blogs and the player revolt they don't really play the game which is understandable since that isn't their job. We are their playtesters and because players are a diverse group many with VERY bad opinions on gameplay they often don't or can't listen to us B) the marketing team is the actual one making the balancing and addition decisions, when Gen 4 planes were added the MiG-29 was the top dog, and for unknown reasons the F-16 was G-Limited and with a worse radar missile and without HMD, this lasted a while then was swapped by the new gimped MiG-29 flight model and an unlimited F-16. Likely a way to generate hype for both planes and drive premium sales for people to rush to get the meta plane. The same applied to Gripen, who was the most meta plane until recently and then slowly nerfed until it was just average. Now with Fox-3s American jets are the meta driving more sales the recent $75 F-20 premium and the good old F-4s and other planes like F-5c, A-10, A-6, AV-8 etc. Pretty sure in a year the American jet meta will magically end and get stomped and people will complain about nationist bias in gaijin again. for your suggestion, I have no real disagreement just notes. Multipath is a real thing the older the radar having higher in BR less affected by it even if it is a flat rate per rank would help better with situations like the F-14, though Gaijin's likely solution for the F-14 is adding the MiG-31/25 with its own early fox-3s to ruin the day for anyone that isn't one of these 2 planes. While smaller lobbies will make the game feel much better in actual gameplay, I do fear the stocks which take WAY too long and are made worse most of the time the planes are a mild upgrade of a plane you already spaded but have to do it again because it has fox-3s this time. Even with separation a fully upgraded plane with have a strong advantage over any stock or near-stock plane thus making their time harder. 1) mod based BRs might help a little bit as a singular mod can often determine if a plane(or tank) is good or not and 2) probably my more controversial opinion of adding point-based limited but hard limited to 3 respawns with MUCH smaller 8v8 lobbies, which to me would at least help with people who take bombers and ground strike aircraft will get an actual chance to bring something useful in air combat even though it would limit how tatical tracking the enemy while giving people more chances to make an impact in a match or planes and mods(and maybe 5 whole premium players will learn how to play the game more often).

[@jinx_rogue]

Defyn made a nice short on a fox3 tracking behind a mountian into the enemy and the tree hight💀

[@AirJordan2787]

On day 1 of this patch, I played 2 games in the F-16C to get the AIM-120, played 1 more game with it, got 3 kills, saw what I needed to see, and will likely never attempt a stock grind under the current meta. I told my friend this on day 1: 1. Rip stock grind. All planes should receive fox-3s stock. Not the whole set, maybe 2. The strongest IR missiles are just not going to cut it against ARH missiles. 2. The 60m multipath feels good, but is exacerbating other problems (like stock planes without BVR). I can fire missiles at a relatively low altitude and still expect it to track correctly, which was one of the most frustrating mechanics I disliked before the patch. 3. Some of these issues can be solved with decompression, which they refuse to do.

[@SteelxWolf]

mfw trees are 75m tall... Trees need to be lowered in height, same density would apply, just the height needs to be reduced. Even then, multipathing wouldn't be without risks... which IMO, before the update it had *almost* zero risk. Trees being more realistic in their height would help with MP but obviously you are also flying just that much closer to the ground. IRL being that close to the ground is a last resort. IDC if this is a game, its still based upon reality and IRL risks still apply to WT, even if its slightly less obvious. This is just another case of Gaijin not preparing their game for new systems, mechanics, weapons etc. MP should have had more advanced in the game well before Fox-3s were on their way. I will once again repeat for everyone... Just because this is a game, doesnt mean that these aircraft, weapons, systems, etc. are not based on reality. flying Mach 100m above the ground 24/7 in 16v16 just isn't a realistic expectation of ARB at this tier anymore. (I mean realistic as in believable.. not actually citing pure realism. For some reason people get triggered at this word even with having multiple contextual meanings.) Compression, lack of meaningful gameplay loop changes, little to no preparation for new game changing mechanics, stock vs spaded gap and many more reasons for why ARB is truly in a dogshit place. It has been for the last 5-6 years. Anyone who didnt see how this would end up is either lying to themselves or extremely ignorant. Good video sir.

[@flxdrv5020]

just L2P man, stop turning your brain off and fly at tree top level, listen to your rwr and learn to notch. these new missile are easy to dodge

[@SteelxWolf]

@@flxdrv5020 you're telling this to the wrong person. believe it or not there are players out there with more experience and understanding of the game than you. I can support the betterment of air battles in general while still maintaining a contradicting playstyle. BVR or not, trees are exaggeratedly tall for no reason. other flight sims dont do this to the same level as Gaijin

[@ic4440]

I dont agree,because the is isnt dcs i think that gameplay should always take precedence over balance and realism, i didnt care multipath was 100m for a significant portion of the game because its a GAME and people forget that this isnt actual dcs larping launching fox3s from 100+km and

[@SteelxWolf]

@@ic4440 then you misunderstood what I said. I clearly make the difference between IRL realism and the fact that the game is BASED OFF OF REAL things. That doesn’t equal 100% realism. WT is based on reality more than just the models. WOT is purely arcade. See the difference?

[@ic4440]

@@SteelxWolf yup thanks for the explanation

[@neobrandeggen]

I agree with every single point, execpt evening out the missile performance, I like that every missile has it's quirks and features, it's more fun having a broad and colorful palate of different missiles, instead of a bunch of missiles with different looks perform the same (or close to the same)

[@justiceforjeller]

What quirks are there again? The darter/derby is bugged and won't hit targets at range flying in a straight line with datalink maintained + the damn thing nearly shakes itself apart. The r77 seems to be regarded as somehow worse than it but I haven't used it. The mica is strong but doesn't have the range to touch an amraam in BVR meaning it will always be forced low. So why would you use anything other than an amraam? Where is the quirky draw?

[@phoenixmapping932]

within acceptable degrees maybe. as it currently stands aim 120s far out range every other fox 3 reliably and its made for some of the worst gameplay ive ever experience in warthunder. If gaijin cant balance out missile preformance than everyone deserves to have the same missile copy and paste

[@zzmuffin2]

Wow someone that is making sense ty for the commentary.

[@sharkhunter6447]

I could watch this a thousand times and I couldn't agree any more. For context I finished a non premium grind to the mirage 4k as I'm not a fan of spending money on the game. I got the plane last this week about 1 or 2 weeks after the update I can't remember exactly and it has been hell. For number 1 the Mirage 4000 on Wikipedia is stated to be able to carry 8-14 advanced aams, which according to Wikipedia classify as AMRAAMs. Number 2 when playing at 9.7 w no flares the su25 is able of carrying R60MKs which it wasn't capable of carrying irl. This shows the proof of russian favouritism as they gave this plane missiles to compete with the A-10 and won't give the mirage 4000 it's proper missile loadout. Number 3 realistically the AMRAAM missile is traveling abt Mach 2 meaning it's proxy fuse would for the explosion into the ground, and anyone who knows any physics knows the explosion creates a sonic boom which at most will slow the shrapnel from the missile down to Mach 1 before hitting the ground, so other than a bit of dirt flying up there should realistically be no damage to the aircraft. Finally I wouldn't find AMRAAMs half as bad if they were being used for actual BVR combat and not to pick off the stock players tryna hug the invisible deck. Obviously this is entirely based on gameplay and not game mechanics so gaijin can't changed this but both me and my mate having ground this game for a few months straight have had the fun killed by the AMRAAMs and much preferred it before. In addition I believe the multipath limit or whatever the 60m rule is called I forgot (sorry) would have been a good addition for the SARH missiles but implementing it with a new spam missile and not even giving players the chance to go 60m or below because of poor game design is actually sad. Thing is everyone who argues for AMRAAMs is just sniping the stock players and making easy money because I can't see how that is fun for anyone.

[@brokenstarship]

I can't play my lovely 11.3-12.0 planes anymore because it's fucking spamraaam or phenixspam that much much harder to avoid while idiots on f-14s use zero brain cells to make their kills. There was enough room to kill people using SARH missiles even with 100m multipath and now stock planes or planes without arh missiles suffers even more than before, great gameplay!

[@GeoDracu]

Very good points sir. I feel like the first change that needs to be reverted is Multipath or changed to 80m, or trees fixed or whatever. The second most important one would be 8v8 or at most 10v10 matchmaking. These two would fix the majority of the issues and make 12.3-13.0 tolerable even if you are stock.

[@andrewwillard5625]

These higher tier planes just need like one or two Aam120s off the rip or 2 9M’s and opposite for Russian side but starting with no range to grind out the tech tree is legit misery just have to buy it out

[@thatboydre7585]

I would think they would rlly give everyone fox 3’s withought having to grind for them cause if the cancer that it would cause but noooo I feel bad for whenever I see with just fox 2’a on there plane in 13.0 😭😭😭

[@firestar7890]

Another thing I think you failed to mention was NATO/Western digital RWR's compared to soviet equipment still quite common from 12.0-12.7, namely the spo-15. Target identification and the MSL indicator gives NATO planes a much larger advantage to their counterparts. Also, even with chaff, some planes simply do not have enough countermeasures in this Fox-3 meta (I'm looking at you MiG-29G). Overall good points were made in the video.

[@ponchoremerize5508]

I literally just got done explaining some of the exact same thing as what you said. I commented on another video by this "DCS" player and let's just say I got "hushed." Keep on spreading the Truth brother!

[@SeekerHead]

DCS players are something else man. It should be a case study

[@TonedVirus3]

You'd think they would, idk, play DCS lmao

[@ponchoremerize5508]

@@TonedVirus3 We mean that there are a FEW that are very Elitist and all "We are the ONLY true pilots."

[@TheTISEOMan]

Literally I made this point awhile ago and someone called me an idiot for it. This is an issue of Gaijin's raycast model for Radar. The simplified effects of ground clutter has lead to issues like what we have with multipathing. Realistically Gaijin needs to overhaul ground clutter, it's visual representation, and it's behavior as they're having to play hot or cold when they just need to bite the bullet for the more complex fix. They need a minimum "missile won't track height" maybe 45-55m might work. But that's not the important part. They need to heavily rework how the missile will behave at certain altitudes based on what's there and how effective the seeker head is and what physical objects are around you and attitude compared to the missile. This will in turn also help fix jets that don't have pulse doppler by giving the more detailed visualization of ground clutter besides the stupid hazes we get in game.

[@zayf1760]

So far I've only played the M2K-5F in the new FOX-3 meta and I didn't feel that the AMRAAM users had an overwhelming advantage. Sure they outrange you but it's rather easy to defend until they get within range and allow you to fire back. I 100% agree on the other points, especially player amount and stock grind, I really don't want to start grinding the F15C.

[@sniper_gamer_55]

I gave up on the f-15c after unlocking the AIM-9m ,by the way why should I unlock the AIM-9L while I have 2 stock AIM-9m ?????

[@DarkderiVeR96]

The problem is when your range is 2km 😂

[@sniper_gamer_55]

@@DarkderiVeR96 yup but what im saying is that you pay extra 15k of RP for no reason

[@skycookie3169]

I personally didnt mind multipathing last updates since it makes you have a reason for IR missiles but now i just use my Fox 3 as a makeshift sidewinder

[@KitsuneSuper]

I think you should maybe activate windows

[@SeekerHead]

500 LIKES

[@ferrariman7695]

@@SeekerHead its 500 likes now go activate it

[@BlissfuLRade]

@@ferrariman7695yeah

[@Rojek-ls3dl]

For stock vehicles especially jets, i think that stock jets should have access to all loadouts, those should be simplified to offer basic of every weapon available for said plane. Then researching each weapon opens up ability to use them in custom loadouts.

[@skytron22]

Literally just need 8v8 every match, boom top tier made 90% better. If nothing else, gayjin doing this would make the BVR spam more bearable

[@musclife7232]

Problems cannot be solved without reducing the number of missiles per person

[@T95man]

Or give people plane respawns. So people are actually able to gain RP.

[@nikolaideianov5092]

​@@T95manjust give us ec

[@skytron22]

@@nikolaideianov5092 Absolutely this. Having actual targets that arent just players would help even out the amraam spam, and help ease up the stock grind. Combined with 8v8, this would decongest top tier battles big time.

[@BlackSSCat]

I haven't played much Fox3 yet, but I've noticed a significant improvement in my performance with the MiG-29G in this update. I've always enjoyed flying at very low altitudes, and now I find it much easier to score kills with my Fox-2 missiles while avoiding being targeted myself. I do agree that the trees seem overly large, but after playing most maps a few times, I've discovered some common routes that generally shield me from both Fox-3 and Fox-2 attacks. However, I'm not suggesting the game is flawless. Personally, I think the trees should be made smaller so that there are more accessible areas on maps for players who don't rely on Fox-3 missiles. This adjustment would also benefit less experienced players who prefer flying low without crashing.

[@GotsHank]

I agree with most of what you pointed, but the r27 argument for multipath is not a good argument. You'd have to consider that there were grippens kissing the floor to get to you 100% of the time and then mostly win because they simply have a better flight model with no consequence, no need to defend, simply hugging the deck and we all know how it felt to play when sweden was on the enemy team.

[@SeekerHead]

The Gripen is its own issue I agree, but I’d much rather have that than R27ERs have no counter play to them. At least you can just choose to not engage a gripen.

[@Narsheo]

As far as splash damage goes, I agree. For the Phoenix, I have no problems with it; either go cold or bleed off energy a bit and turn hard. The maps and game modes, imo, need a significant change, especially on GRB, literally, right after you spawn, you can already launch ARH missiles at everything in the air. For ARB, teams can go 8v8, but the game modes need to change. For example, if 3 players get 2 kills, that leaves 2 other people alive for 5 players. So, if teams are going to be smaller, then Gaijin either needs to create more objectives, like destroying X ground units or the new radars they added, etc. This would be similar to sim in a way (maybe even let people respawn? I’m not sure about that, because then you would have spawn-killing issues like in sim). Real aircraft loadouts should not be touched, reducing the quantity of certain missiles it can carry would make most different planes redundant and mostly the same, except for the airframe. Trees 100% need to count. As for the AIM-120 meta, I don’t really know what to say. Nerfing its range would be weird; I don’t think it’s THAT much better than its counterparts plus, with anything new added in War Thunder, there’s always an imbalance whenever new things get added, like the Phoenix, the R-27s, etc. So, I think that's just how it's going to be until new things get added. Just like how in GRB, Russia absolutely dominates air control because of the Pantsir, while nothing else gets a counterpart to that.

[@EpsilonGaming7]

What are you opinions about having an enduring confrontation sim mode in air RB? Like with respawns and everything. I know this will never happen, but if it could, would you like to see something like that implemented?

[@Blackp1324]

Before there was, but for some reason they removed it, it was so good game mode in my opinion 😢

[@MrXsMisery]

>Put Fox3 in the game and let them face cold war planes >People get sick of playing against it start grinding US tree >Game is still impossible to play once you unlock any Fox 3 capable plane since it's the last tier of upgrades People are gonna spend tons to unlock the planes and missiles themselves. This isn't getting "fixed" any time soon. It's likely intended

[@_S1mba]

9:37 - 9:57 got me dead lmao

[@AJ_on_One1]

YESSS, Stock grinding the AV-8B, F15C, and F16AM damn near made me break a glass desk, lol. We need stock stock BVR missiles now, 2 stock short range ir missiles is not enough, its pitiful

[@sealboyy6584]

I've given up on top tier air for a while now, and I'm in general pretty informed, but I thought that the AIM-120 was the worst ARHM we were getting, so how is it the best one? I might just be stupid but is it due to DL tracking for US planes being mich higher than their counterparts?

[@actualsize123]

Gaijin just nerfed the rest of the missiles until they were worse than the aim120. The best example is the aam4 where they just removed the sustainer for no particular reason.

[@areyou0k98]

Every other missile in game is amraam c-5 level. Obviously it doesn't make sense to add all these crazy missiles and just leave USA with a crappy amraam A model lol. The other missiles will get better with time.

[@actualsize123]

@@areyou0k98 then why didn’t they just add the amraam c5… they have it in the files.

[@areyou0k98]

@@actualsize123 cuz that's not how gaijin does it, I can't make them make sense, but it's tough to give everyone fox 3s because each country got them at vastly different times

[@Layd36]

Lol westerners being mad that their tech isn't made even better than it already is, surely more western propaganda is needed

[@braedynhoward3644]

I basically only have fun in the first 4 or 5 mins of the battle... climb, find the outlier enemies who are also high, get kinda close, fire, do BVR, end up with 1, often 2 kills (most don't defend properly) and then BAM, your entire team is pretty much dead, 6 enemies of all altitudes and directions are shooting ARH missiles at you. You are out of ARH missiles... with no chance to get back to base to rearm... or, you do have missiles left, but you can't multipath or notch effectively against more than one enemy, and they simply chase you down. It's no fun after the initial 1 or 2 kills...

[@n1coR]

1:35 1 in 3 or 1 in 5 you get a match with less people? I played hundreds of matches since the update and got a maximum of 3-4 small matches???????????????????????????

[@SeekerHead]

Experience may vary it seems lol

[@brokenstarship]

​@@SeekerHead i was in the 8x8 lobby once, but after a minute it became 18x18 :D

[@RienRocks]

So far in about a week of playing I’ve gotten 4 12v12 matches

[@vladxd6652]

Totally agree specially about the trees the MUST BE accounted and like right now. And fix the grind issue

[@Ragan247]

I will let you in on a little secret i have been doing. I rarely get hit by 120s anymore and it does not matter where you are. When you notch them correctly to where they are travelling from, your RWR will start to grey out the "MSL". 90% of the time you dont need chaff. The horizontal plane works the same with the 120s as it does with the F14s radar. You start to not show on the radar. Only caviate to that is. Unless they have you hard locked. If they soft lock and fire and move on to another target, and that missle starts to use its onboard radar and not data link you can notch it with ease under 16 km. Test it. It will change your expierence.

[@justiceforjeller]

how to i do this with SPO-15?

[@robertgaudet7407]

Yup. I dunno what he’s talking about with missiles coming from three directions. At match start, they’ll largely come from the front. If their whole team is intent on chasing you and dodged all your missiles, I’d just try to drag them into my team. But I tend to fly right to start so as they fly left they eat my fox 3s head on. Then I can crank or notch to the left and always drag chasers into my team, who also always fly left.

[@DJRaffa1000]

Gaijn actually implemented the stock fox3's (2 of them but thats a huge boon) and they rebalanced all fox3's, with now roughly 3 categories. 1) short range, maneuverable -> Mica and after buff the R77 are deadly below like 15km 2) all rounder -> R-darter and the derby perform well in all ranges but dont excel in one particular 3) long range, low drag -> aim120 and aam4, now take longer to start maneuvering and reaching max overload to turn but due to low drag are faster and longer range in true BVR scenarios (up in the stratosphere and lobbing missiles at 35+km) + there was a BR decompression. All "standart" fox3 launchers are now 13.7 while the inferior ones like the german F4F ICE are at 13.3 (and the AV-8B+ at 13.0 for whatever reason). i haven't tried 12,7 or 12.3 matches a lot, but the now the 12,7 mirage 2k s4 doesnt get spammed with fox3's every game since the top bracked pulls the 13.3s away into top tier matches. sadly, the matchmaker is still shit as the lower size lobby option gets less and less impactful (for me its like 1 every 20 matches now)

[@verzache-]

How is the mig 29smt compared to the F-4F ice, it feels like they are in a similair boat

[@guvyygvuhh298]

They are the worst top tier jets. 29smt gets 6 R77s which are not that good, max effective range in game is ~20km and F4 ice gets 4 much better spamraams but the airframe is garabge (well it kinda is for the mig too), its slower and slower to accelerate than any other jet at top tier

[@Layd36]

​@@guvyygvuhh298 lol cause western propaganda at hand here, it's like the f-14 days have come top gun maverick 🇺🇸🦅💩

[@seananderson6245]

The stock j8f grind was by far the worst I’ve ever encountered. For just two PL12s😭

[@EroBE14]

Even as a DCS-Who-Do-Not-Play-DCS-Because-Skill-Issue Larper You're 100% right and Gaijin should implement the things you've said. - 6 VS 6 or 8 VS 8 at most - Chaff and ARH/SARH missiles stocks but in limited quantities - No splash damages from AIM-120 that can just kill you - Trees counting for multipath or lowering them (I think the 1st option will be easier for Gaijin) - Balancing all the FOX 3s, because god damn the AMRAAM is just the most OP shit I've seen I don't even want to play Russia or China anymore with their shitty R-77 and PL-12

[@Layd36]

Lol imagine westerner being this mad about other countries cause US is number one 😂

[@kkkkkkk6668]

worst experience is air spawned, stock, and 5 sec into match you're already tracked

[@Adrianricky004]

The problem is playing fox 3 missiles in rb, sim is the move

[@issakawalit490]

I've never played sim, can u tell me whats the difference

[@redgroyp]

Still doesn't change that the 120 is the only competitive missile

[@saxondiehl2682]

@@issakawalit490pretty much just stuck to first person and the can’t track enemies or there red markers don’t show up so getting a visual on the aircraft your trying to kill is essential to avoid friendly fire but iff is a lot better on top tier aircraft so it’s not really an issue but I love sim because you can respond and it makes the maps actually a big size so you can play the whole map it’s not just one big fur ball

[@rampageTG]

@@issakawalit490no makers until very close like (.1-.2mi), your stuck in cockpit view. Spotting relies on picking out dots in the distance or using a radar if you have it. Identifying planes comes down to knowing the silhouette of the plane or using a radars IFF if your plane has it. Generally you play on much larger maps. 3hr mission timer but most matches end in around 1hr 1/2-2hr due to ticket bleed. Lots of changing objectives all across the map. Multiple respawns. Full realistic controls (no mouse aim like rb or ab). You can leave a match whenever with no penalties.

[@Adrianricky004]

@@issakawalit490 biggest difference is no 16v16 most games are usually in the 6v6

[@galacticdragon9841]

The only thing I have complained about is the stock grind, cause when stock, you straight up can only survive amraams by shoving it into a mountain, and guess what, only like half the time the map will have decent mountains. Also, being forced into the ground by fox-3s while you cant fight back is so annoying, then they have all the position and you just cant win if the enemy has fox-3s left over. To add onto this, because of how this works, the only people who can actually get kills are people with fox-3s, if you don't got fox-3s, every kill will be taken before you can start winning a fight and get a sever damage in.

[@magicianGOD]

R27ER mains here, we still winning vs aimbot-120, but we have not enough chaffs and flares

[@kingghidorah8106]

a couple of large caliber flares are enough to deter gatewidth irccm from behind, and a three flare flower to deter an aim9m.

[@kylecoolage4251]

I cant wait to deal with this problem in 3 years when I finally reach top tier

[@user-bm2xf6io3c]

W thumbnail man.

[@Layd36]

More like L thumbnail western propaganda 🇺🇸🦅💩

[@ixcenturion3464]

i like your idea for missiles. and honestly how all ammo unlocks should work to include tanks. you get a very small base quantity but after unlocking you can change quantities.

[@kittyrusher242]

Gaijin should give the aam4 and the pl12 the performance it had irl

[@pigs2001]

PL12 buff would be nice, slinging them with the J8F is fun

[@Twife_]

Would that make them better or worse

[@apo911]

@@Twife_ much better

[@Layd36]

Making things about irl will only promote propaganda pretty simple

[@apo911]

@@Layd36 but its stupid to have one missile closer to its irl performance and not other missiles

[@Colonel_Maple]

Most non-bvr planes are now forced to take loads of drop tanks, fly to the side for a long time and pretty much wait for the spam to end (three scenarios happen in this case: A. Your entire team dies and you can't win, B. Your team kills all of them, C. You only get to kill 1-2 stragglers.) Which isn't gonna give you a lot of rp. Hope things change :(

[@Rek1emMScar]

You forgot the 4 case. Some enemy still have Fox 3 and you're instead death the moment theyr radar have a glimpse of you.

[@BikZom]

perhaps more people will hop onto simulation battles and because of that gaijin will give more resources to develop that mode

[@ferrous3262]

nah its even more boring than naval

[@TonedVirus3]

nah, too much learning curve for the average person lmfao

[@TeamValkyrie2023]

Sim air is boring. Add enemy markers at the range that the crew level can see and all for it, but until then team killing keeps me away. Don't want to waste sl to play then die 5 times to a dumbass

[@pliat]

They would make it worse if ppl started playing it, not better, lol. Ground SB used to have a normal matchmaker like RB and it was incredibly popular, but they didnt like that, so they made it this stupid daily event thing and now nobody plays it.

[@jakalantheman3402]

i painfully started the stock grind yesterday, i now have the r27er and this just got so much better

[@alexturnbackthearmy1907]

Yeah, now no one can hide near the ground from it.

[@commanderkris93]

But when people complained about R27ER they said we coping lmao. Any powercreep is bad, no matter if it's US, USSR, Sweden or hell, even France.

[@Layd36]

Lol coping sounds more like propaganda

[@Squood]

If you’re trying to use the Mirage F1 as a fighter, have fun trying to get in range to launch a Magic 2. Its radar can’t see past 37km in MTI mode and even if it could, you’re not hitting shit in BVR with the 530F’s unless the other guy is missing his frontal lobe because the damn thing uses a pulse seeker.

[@kaidestructor7350]

You literally sayd everything I sayd to some of my friends. They are US mains. I'll let you figure it out how it went. I usually play russia, I was alwayst against having R-27ER as it was way better than AIM-7F, but now that I say AIM-120 is OP I'm saying it becouse I'm a russia main, even tho I have the hole UK tree and half US and France. Anyway, brainrot aside, good video, completely agree. Either multipathing should come back (not ideal) or balance Fox-3 and in general radar AAMs.

[@T95man]

Doesn’t Russia get something like a fox 3 but pulls 50 Gs instead of the 35 g of the aim120

[@kaidestructor7350]

@@T95man that's france, the MICA EM

[@T95man]

@@kaidestructor7350 I checked Russia does have a 50g missile.

[@kaidestructor7350]

​@@T95man R 77, yes, Fox 3 with about 30% less range than AIM-120. But hey, thanks for proving my point Just for the laughs, I will teach you something about WT. Statcards are incomplete numbers. AIM-7E has a 25G turn. I guarantee you will kill nothing with it. Why? becouse it turns after about 2.5s, which is a lot of time. AIM-7E-2 has the same stat card, but it pulls at about 0.5s, which it doesn't say anywhere in the statcard. Also, Red Top recently got nerfed from 16Gs to 12Gs, but the activation time got reduced to 0.3s and drag got reduced. All in all it was a buff, even tho it was a statcard nerf. The example I have RN. R-73 has a 40G turn while R-77 has 50G turn. Then why can I almost hit a plane behind me with the R-73 but not with the 50G one? Simple, becouse that 50G peak pull is at speed while the R-73 has thrust vectoring, so the 40G is almost instantaneous. MICA EM, the one i though you were saying does have thrust vectoring, that's why it also can do 180º shots, while R-77 will never. You should know better than reading a statcard and basing your opinion about some randon numbers Gaigin decided are relevant.

[@T95man]

@@kaidestructor7350 R77 moron

[@clankplusm]

Agree on pretty much everything, but here’s an idea: How about we actually support realistic missile loadouts and jamming… You know, the Su-27’s entire doctrine of salvo firing an R, T, and P at a single target for a high pk that is relatively unchanged by jamming and notching? (Defeatable by specifically deactivating your ECM, flaring, then turning to notch while pulsing jam) It would actually be interesting seeing the millennial era fight of AMRAAM centric doctrine clash heads with the salvo fire doctrine, just as in the currently used era we have the interesting millennial BFM competition of 2C Energy theory vs 1C+1st gen HOBS+HMD “kill the enemy fast” supermanouverability theory Both were eventually solved, but we sit at a potentially interesting point where they weren’t yet Also why is the AAM4 worse the AIM-120A…

[@Layd36]

Lol westerners want everything to be realistic but their realistic data is hyper exaggerated and doesn't even work irl

[@Layd36]

Ofc u agree on everything westerners as obviously your propaganda machine worked

[@clankplusm]

@@Layd36 ethnic Ukrainian, cope more z tard Also lol when I propose a massive su27 buff and you say I’m eating western propaganda

[@clankplusm]

@@Layd36 uh, what? I’m agreeing with the state of balance in war thunder, the AMRAAM being dominant unfairly, the chaff stock issue, the ARH vs no ARH issue, and so on, where the hell does that have to do with propaganda? Not to mention I guess you literally didn’t read the rest of the comment where I proposed to bring su27 up in capability we get the equipment modeled like jammers and the -P missile as well as the Su-27’s salvo fire AAM selector so we have the mechanics for the 90s-2000’s doctrine the flanker was practically built up on instead of the Su27SM trying to play the BVR Fox-3 only game (in essence, the Su-27 is trying to play the American hyperspecialized fox-3 doctrine right now, which is not what it was built for nor good at) Heck the thing I hate most about this update was yak141 missing both its R73 and R77 still. R60 was out the window but the time it flew let alone would have received weapons. But hey, apparently an ethnic Ukrainian proposing soviet aircraft buffs… Is a westerner propaganda koolaid drinker, how’s the invasion going Z coper? Cause holy hell that’s a projection and a half.

[@Layd36]

@@clankplusm lol western propaganda trying to gaslight others into believing that "invasion" wasn't just done for literally avoiding NATO expansion, which btw NATO is an aggressive authoritarian force which seeks to subjugate other countries into its whim like they did with Ukraine in 2014 with US diplomats like Victoria Newland directly supporting the maidan coup, stop justifying yourselves westerners and just admit that western propaganda is at play and many of the "military progress" that the western Empire has is superficial and overtly expensive, you talk about the "invasion" yet Ukraine still is sitting without advancing any further that they did a year ago 😂😂

[@sawiszcze3878]

I absolutely love the double standards that are at play here. When R-27ER was the best missile the whining was unending, despite it being easily defeated by multipathing and overall not that hard to counter, but the whining led to wildly unrealistic flight model nerfs, because USA has to be best in everything. But now, when AMRAAM is undodgable missile with rage you cannot compete with, its all fine. Theres no point of researching any top tier plane that doesn't have AMRAAM, because you will be at disadvantage no matter what you do. And community is okay with this, this is absolutely insane.

[@Layd36]

Cause it's pretty simple it's all propaganda

[@Layd36]

Cause it's simple it's all western propaganda

[@407fitz8]

As a top tier US main I wholeheartedly agree with you

[@Տիգրան-ժ1է]

Just wait for R-77-1

[@ForwardKinematics]

The IRL tactics were made for large scale engagements. Problem is people aren't real fighter pilots and haven't trained for 2-ship tactics, and above so it doesn't scale because your expecting people with no experience to work as a fluid machine and that just doesn't work.

[@ItzCPU_]

Fun fact: you can double click this comment to like it.

[@blessthismessss]

One tiny little thing that goes unnoticed, rockets and missiles that still have fuel to burn will actually count that fuel towards explosive mass when detonating, meaning the more your missile has left to burn, then the more splash damage it may have to an extent. i notice this with R-27ERs, as an ER directly after launch has enough fuel to contribute to explosive mass that it could tag me with shrapnel even at the old 100m multipath height. basically tl;dr with more burn time left in the missile, the boom becomes ever so slightly bigger

[@CratePTFS]

activate windows and learn to play

[@SeekerHead]

500 likes

[@ItzCPU_]

I completely agree with your set of decisions at the end, the only slight disagreement might be making multipathing easier. Don’t get me wrong, I want realistic trees but be carful when making multipathing easier because it might make radar missiles useless. Great video 💪

[@ferrous3262]

multipathing didnt make radar missiles useless

[@ItzCPU_]

@@ferrous3262 no, it did

[@pliat]

@@ItzCPU_the R27ER (radar missile) was meta when multipath was 100m.

[@INeatFreak]

You can't seriously compare AMRAAMS vs R-77 we have right now to Sparrows vs R-27ER we had over a year now. Fox 3's are way more competitive between each other and AMRAAM having more range isn't practical since it hardly even kills anything at long range, more range also means more time to dodge them and it's slower than some other Fox 3's. These missiles really shine at mid-close range where enemy don't have much time to dodge, thus speed and manevourability matters way more. AMRAAMS isn't overpowered, not even close to how much R-27ER were with more range, more pull, more speed and having IOG+Datalink. And also F-16 was carrying 2 Sparrows at max, while Su-27 had 6x of them, any hilly map or dogfight above 100 meters was basically a death sentence. I do agree with other points, stock grind and multipathing needs to be changed!

[@SeekerHead]

You’re one of the people I reference in the video who seem to forget that the game isn’t just fox 3s at 13.0. There’s an entire BR bracket of planes that have to fight FOX 3 carrying planes that are using SARH missiles that are kinetically inferior in every way, AND are required to keep a lock to get a kill. THAT is what’s worse than Sparrow v ER. NOT AMRAAM v R77. At least with sparrow v ER you could nullify either with multipath. Now if you’re sparrow v AMRAAM, cope.

[@INeatFreak]

@@SeekerHead I didn't argue otherwise in that topic, you said USA / NATO fox 3's are Overpowered and that's what I was responding to.

[@pigs2001]

@@INeatFreak The gap is absolutely the same, in fact its worse as there is no 100% defence against an Aim120 while you could simply go below 100m to stop the ER.

[@Rüdiger-o9q]

The other aircraft types should also be rewarded for their tasks, strike fighters should get more rewards for ground targets and ground targets should contribute more to the decision of the round

[@goobersnake]

Honestly the best luck I've had is to turn and burn as soon as the missile warning goes off

[@josephthebig2889]

And R60Ms still have to fight with planes with Fox3s so cool gaijin :). Also I agree with everything you said, R77s are so bad because of its low range and speed compared to the Aim120s and I haven't died to a MICA yet so I just assume no one plays them for a reason. I would honestly just use ERs on the 27SM because of the greater range and speed compared to the R77, I have never gotten a long range R77 kill as of yet and I always get dunked on if a AIM120 is locking on to me because if I try to evade it and notch it, it has a tendency to come with a second one or the notching just does not work with the amount of chaff a Russian plane gets, and the splash damage on ground level makes it so painful to fight them at all, but really funny to see when a player thinks they are safe from an ER doing the same thing.

[@juansolo7485]

Top tier fighters no stock chaff is like if low tier bombers were forced to research their gunners before they unlocked them.

[@ymroo8299]

I think the problem also that some planes which would have a chaff and flare pod IRL doesnt have it and it would be nice to finally have ECM which some planes like the mig21 have to counter or help againts Radar locks or missiles

[@derritter3873]

I agree with the stock grind issue. With this newest update, it really highlights the issues that come with stock planes. When I finally got the F-15J(M), I just ended up GE’ing the countermeasures as it was just incredibly difficult to do anything without the ability to counter AMRAAMs. Also, while I did use the regular F-15J to grind most of the way, when I used the EJ Kai the last steps of the way, and man, they really have to do something about tue Tomcat issue. They are being spammed out right now, especially the F-14A, as they just have way better flight performance and weaponry than literally anything else in its br range. How is the EJ Kai the same br as the F-14A. And here I was thinking this update would mitigate the tomcat phoenix spamming menace, but it only made it 10x worse.

[@loneirregular1280]

Im okay with the multipathing currently in the game. But! You have a point with the trees, and also the stock grind at the moment os horrendous, although some worse than the others. The Su-27SM doesnt get a single radar missile until T4. If someone wants to snipe you from a long range, you are basically a sitting duck. At least the F15C has 7Ms at Tier 2.

[@simon2493]

Mig-29 does perform well, you just need to use it's wide radar angle and speed to outrun Aim-54.

[@simon2493]

Most of my games in Mig-29 end with 1-2 kill one of which is more often than not form BVR.

[@michaelneumiller2448]

I agree with most things you've talked about, especially the stock grind of hell. Free chaff is needed and it's normally the first mod I unlock now. As someone who has been playing a lot with both the aim120 and r77s I'm not finding such a huge gap in those two missiles. To me it feels less than the gap that was between the r27er and the aim7s and my view may even change further when I get the r77s unlocked on my su27sm. The r-darters though, are not very good unless you are well below 20km away, but I haven't had to much trouble getting in their range, however I haven't tried them enough for a good review. Also, we might have to challenge ourselves with a new playstyle, I've found people using r27et fired from below when I am doing bvr is a nasty tool because I don't even know the missile was launched and bam I turned into a fireball out of nowhere, and since I recently have unlocked the r27et on my su27sm I've been learning to incorporate that tactic. I haven't found a good tactic yet for my M2000-5F that is nearly stock though. Even with chaff it has so few countermeasures for br 13, and even though it has my favorite fox2's I haven't found a strategy yet that I would call working. So I can't speak to the MICAs yet, though I hear they are amazing as long as you are going fast enough for launch, and it will be forever before I can speak about aam4s, because my Chinese tree is not very far along. The Harrier B Pluss though has been a difficult jet to grind, on most top tier maps, even with chaff unlocked, going for bases is normally off the menu because of teammates bombing them while you are making *pretend sonic boom sounds* and by the time you have entered range to attack the ground, either the entire enemy team has died or your team is mostly dead and now you have 6 fox3s headed your way from all sides. I find the jet fun to fly, but not in game currently, unless you are top tier in it, but even then the game is over before you get to do much of anything.

[@apro_zbruh]

The problem with rb is not the player size. It’s the map size it don’t matter if it was 2v2 players will always spam missiles making the game worse. If you increase the map size let players spread out and actually look for the targets instead of constantly looking at the same spot it will fix it 65 percent of the problem. Sim and rb Enduring maps prove that

[@kampsie1841]

I think the Air RB maps should be modified like how the Ground maps are 2 Runway spawns on opposite ends, Make the map WIDE like EC but SHORT like anything else Wide maps + 2 runways will provide the breathing room for two ~8v8 matchups in the same map instead of half the team splitting up, and then getting destroyed in a headon with 16 enemies Shortening the maps is a quality of life improvement, All increasing the distance does is increase the time I spend tabbed out on youtube waiting to fly to the battle

[@bamole]

I think you are exactly right about the stock grind becoming even worse but this may be by design or at least a favourable coincidence for Gaijin. It simply allows for more frustration and more rage spending. Players without Fox-3 may as well be AI because they are defensive and largely can’t effectively fight back until the aggressor runs out of missiles or loses interest

[@shatteredskull7221]

6:30 100% agree with everything man, that's exactly what I said in a Mat video, bro really said that this was the "most balanced" update and I commented that it was just as we were with the 27er. Aside from that, not only trees are stupidly large, but there are maps where the sea level is in fact below sea level lol, Golan heights being the greatest offender, so not only is unreliable but also inconsistent between maps.

[@maraxussrafhael]

This guy sounds really like the narrator of the "Ancient Aliens DEBUNKED" documentary. Really good documentary btw.

[@fireblizzard195]

Yeah I feel like the lack of skill expression is a huge issue especially for people who have grinded through all the rank, back when I first got the f-16a, 90% of lobbies were doing the same over and over and over, hugging the ground, shooting off aim 9's as quick as possible and then dying cause you yourself were being targeted by at least one or two of them and I constantly felt like my immersion was just watered down to hyper arcady plane shooter instead of actually trying to develope a way of approaching and engaging targets with your team. Of course everyone sees Air Battles and its sense a bit different but I wish it would become something more than just what it is now