The Truth About Eiji Aonuma's Comments on the Future of the Zelda Series - EP98 Kit & Krysta Podcast

[@diegozcastro1061]

This podcast has really turned into appointment listening for me.

[@Aka-Spade]

Critiques about the Tears of the Kingdom dungeons aside, there were some that were certainly a lot stronger than others. The Wind and Lightning Temples stand out to me as more "classic style" dungeons with their puzzles. I also really enjoyed the Spirit Temple for its unique puzzles in figuring out how to get the Construct Parts through the Depths.

[@Diamond_Aura]

Imo every TotK dungeon was still certainly a step up from BotW Divine Beast style “dungeons”. I would like to see a return to things like Wind Waker Forbidden Woods, Dragon Roost, or Tower of the Gods; or Twilight Princess Temple of Time, Twilight Palace, or even Forest Temple; or anything like Skyward Sword’s dungeons… but TotK still had some cool things that made it nicer in the dungeon department than before

[@Aka-Spade]

@@Diamond_Aura Yeah, for the next Zelda game, I hope they make the structure of each dungeon a little more unique from each other in terms of progression.

[@CrypticMantisTX55]

I'm somewhat surprised by Krysta's answer as far as reviving dormant series, because we've seen a few this gen Advance Wars: Re-boot Camp (which was presumably doomed by the IMO unnecessarily long delay), Famicom Detective Club, Another Code Recollection, F-Zero 99...

[@Dairunt1]

I think she meant AAA big budget revivals. For example, I'd love a Golden Sun remake made by Monolith Soft with the same quality as recent Xeno games, but it's highly unlikely.

[@CrypticMantisTX55]

I think for me when I'm thinking of why the "dungeons" in TOTK are not great compared to old ones, it's something like Old dungeons give me the feeling of making progress, or of getting "deeper" into the dungeon, until you eventually reach the most inner part of the dungeon and defeat the boss. You also usually got a dungeon item, where your exploration in the dungeon might have been restricted, but then you get the item and the dungeon opens up a lot more for you. TOTK, they're all laid out as "activate X amount of things in any order and return to the pedestal", and at best the dungeons feel like 4-5 shrines glued together. There's not really a sense of solving a mystery or unraveling a knot. It's kinda hard to put into words. As far as nostalgia, I understand wanting to avoid just farming nostalgia, but I also think it's valuable not to just dismiss things as nostalgia and actually try to understand why someone might prefer an older way of doing things. Like, even if the older games didn't sell as well as BOTW or TOTK, they were still popular for a reason, and even though a lot of people like to behave as if open-world is just an overall upgrade, there can be downsides to it depending on how it's executed. Probably the easiest thing to point out is story. At least the way TOTK does it, since you can visit any tribe and complete their quest in any order, you have this awkward issue where Link should VERY OBVIOUSLY KNOW the Zelda that's been sighted around Hyrule is sus, but none of the other characters are allowed to know that. So you have all four of these neo champions chasing her around like "wHaT zElDa DoInG????" when Link should just be like "Yeah I don't think that's really Zelda". It's dissonance that sorta stagnates the overarching plot until you finish all four tribes. As a second issue, if you make the world too big, it can start to feel like there is a purposeless amount of space that isn't actually "designed" well. (One of the big issues with Starfield.) I don't think TOTK suffers from this too much, except for maybe the depths. The depths feels really underdeveloped to me. I think they should have had another tribe that lived down there, like the Subrosians, that had problems and would give you quests. Or maybe the Yiga built an entire society down there and would give you quests to do not realizing you were Link, because they're incompetent. I think one last key thing here is, not everyone is going to be able to explain why they like an old thing more than a new thing, but just because they can't explain it doesn't mean it's nostalgia. Not everyone is a professional game reviewer, so they might just say "vibes are off" and not always be able to get to the core of the issue. You might have to read between the lines. So I hope this is something Aonuma and the team understand, even if the interview answers weren't great. I'll just chalk it up to useless interview. That said, I also understand the tendency of people to panic sometimes, because in some of these interviews you get really bizarre info, like that Iwata Asks interview for Paper Mario where they said no one who took the Club Nintendo surveys for Super Paper Mario said they liked the story, therefore they just decided they needed no story in Sticker Star. I'm sure most of these producers and directors are smarter than me but it's always possible they roll a critical fail on their insight check.

[@Shinjiduo]

Nostalgia is not a bad quality, it is one of the best feelings in the human experience. If you associate a memory with a good time, you are going to have a heavy positive slant on it. As far as I know none of us are machines so this false assertion of pure objectivity is a farce. Or that nostalgia, a longing for what is not currently available, but was previous, has little bearing on long time fans arguments is highly disingenuous. Moreover from Aonuma's perspective nostalgia is more of a description than a dismissal. The aggressive 180 certain fans have made since Skyward Sword would be whiplash inducing for Aonuma, Fujibayashi and the rest of the Zelda development team.

[@MegaAustin29]

Keep in mind that when Skyward Sword came out who ever the producer (I think) said that traditional control Zelda games are no more

[@jimmutennodesu]

Great discussion on Zelda. I think from an engineer’s perspective, the idea of going back to decades old software or designs won’t make much sense, which I think is some of where Aonuma is coming from. For TOTK dungeons, I think we read too much in to what they meant by traditional. In full context, Takizawa just said that compared to BOTW’s dungeons, TOTK’s were huge and like older games, each carried their own regional look and feel unlike the shared Sheikah Divine Beast look. He didn’t say anything about linearity or bringing back old conventions.

[@XanderVJ]

It's still a very problematic statement. They also said they did make "huge dungeons like older games" as a response to older fans feedback that the dungeons in BotW felt underwhelming. But instead of fixing the issue, they kinda made it even worse, since the temples in TotK are even more boring than the Divine Beasts, which I didn't think was even possible. Now, I actually blame fans for most of this. Something that rubbed me the wrong way these past 6 years is that, while discussing the Divine Beasts, fans focused way too much on the fact that they all looked the same. Which was a problem, don't get me wrong, but it was the most shallow observation about the Divine Beasts' problems. Things like their level design being underwhelming, the complete lack of meaningful enemies, the way most puzzles were either brain dead or too easily resolved by brute force, and the complete lack of meaningful progression were talked about way less often. That apparently sent Nintendo the wrong message, because all they did was to give the dungeons a different coat of paint to each one and called it a day. Well, it's even worse, since they took away the only element that made Divine Beasts at least somewhat interesting, which was the possibility to manipulate the dungeon layout itself, and substitute them with other less interesting gimmicks that were either fun to use in the lead to the dungeon, but not in the dungeon itself (Wind Temple and Water Temple), so easy to bypass with basic skills it became irrelevant (Fire Temple), or annoying as hell (Spirit Temple). The only gimmick that was more or less well used were the mirrors in the Lighting Temple... which was ripped off from "Ocarina of Time". But hey, it was at least well implemented and it hasn't been used in a Zelda game in over 20 years, so I'll take it. The bosses were pretty much the only real improvement. And even then, not by much, since they also fixated on the aesthetics, rather than on the more foundational issues.

[@Gx3Tri]

What you said was completely valid. More credit to wind cuz I think the lead up to that was fun and interesting with jumping on the air ships and into the storm. It's interesting how small keys are still a thing but only some shrines. I feel like we're missing linear paths in an open game. The problem is that everything can be cheesed. I agree that the lightning temple did it very well, I think if we had 4 of those for example there would be less hate. Water temple really didn't sit right with me, it had no personality and anti-gravity doesn't feel related at all. I also had the expectations that we'd go underwater in a castle like previous entries.

[@dampflokfreund]

The dungeons weren't huge at all, that was a lie. Didn't take me longer than 20 minutes for those. Big disappointment.

[@Drybones2015]

@XanderVJ Your list of Divine Beast critisms that supposedly went under the radar is interesting because from my experience literally all of those critisms were brought up anytime there was discussion about them, not just how they looked bland. When fans have been straight up saying "We want traditional dungeons similar to the older 3D titles back." for the past six years, I don't blame the fans at all. The Zelda team just doesn't want to do it.

[@marcovarius]

Hot take, I love every Zelda game.

[@Shinjiduo]

A true fan... I applaud you!

[@bepis_real]

Every? Even the CD-i Zelda trilogy? Dang, that IS a hot take

[@marcovarius]

@@Shinjiduo thanks, you too

[@marcovarius]

@@bepis_real especially the CD-i games. Those cutscenes are legendary. Lol

[@Watchfa]

Me too, I love every single one. I literally have Tingle’s Rosey Rupee land for the DS. There are no bad apples in my mind.

[@PaulGaleNetwork]

The last podcast of the year. Let’s go! (Great episode and here’s wishing you a very happy new year!)

[@Zveebo]

As ever you guys come in here with the sensible, informed take! Personally, I like Arlo, and don’t think he meant ill with his video - but I think he did over egg a nugget of a legitimate point. I do think it’s unfortunate there hasn’t been an original 2D Zelda for so long - I think a more traditional 2D entry would blunt a lot of the criticism from those who aren’t big fans of the BOTW style.

[@fadec85]

I'm also a fan of fun pronunciations. Thanks to some earlier K&K podcasts I can't stop calling it Bye-yo-net-ta

[@Gaudimann]

Which is actually how we pronounce her in German xD

[@sonic_the_potato]

Happy New Year Kit and Krysta! Thanks for a great year of content, love you

[@gavin5001]

Alan Smithee is a pseudonym used by directors when they want to take their name off the credits

[@matteogagliardi8688]

I think that the pandemic also played a major factor in the duration of time in between the original spider-man and open world zelda games and their sequels.

[@kewu6714]

So true, BoTW is my first Zelda game and Nintendo game, now I’m a fan of Zelda series, as well as many other Nintendo franchises

[@Shinjiduo]

According to long time fans you cannot possibly be a fan because you were not interested in The Wind Waker, Twilight Princess or Skyward Sword! Sorry FAKE ZELDA FAN you are!!

[@kewu6714]

@@Shinjiduo ??? hey, my friend, I don't think you know me and what games I have played...why not let me be my own judge?

[@TheGift137]

Power Stone! yes! I really feel like that game needs to come back

[@DougyFreshGames]

They just need to expand the dungeon count and areas in those dungeons. That’s a start lol

[@TheCrazyShyGuy]

2023 has been an amazing year for gaming, and the same goes for this podcast!

[@dragonsigner]

People like me are used to the old style dungeons. With w map, compass, keys, master keys final boss. Mini boss.

[@thelastwindwaker7948]

I understand wanting to go where the money is, but it's a little disappointing to hear that they don't care about the fans who have stuck by the series for so long. I also really dislike the "You're gonna buy it anyway" mentality, but that may be because I've heard it used derisively against Pokemon fans too much. For me I just don't gel with the pure freedom mentality and feel like I don't get anything out of these sandbox Zelda games so my best hope is that they'll keep making smaller, more structured games as stop-gaps. I've heard people say open world is the future of ALL games, and if that's the case I'll have to just wait for indie devs to start making N64/GC era-like games in the spirit of traditional Zelda.

[@Mr_DPZ]

Alan Smithee is a name that directors would use when they didn't want to be associated with a film they made.

[@giuliano482]

No doubt we'll see another 2D Zelda game. Hopefully a new one and not just another remake. New traditional 3D Zelda though... It doesn't seem like they'll go in that direction again. Reminds me of how Tomb Raider changed and now you don't really have proper puzzles you can get stuck on in the main story path, you have to go and find the optional small tombs for something that takes thought. That and games outright just telling you the solutions after 5 seconds like in God of War.

[@greenmoblin3114]

Kid Icarus Uprising is probably what a 3D Smash Bros would be like

[@SecksyMan]

I want actually challenging puzzles, and dungeons like previous Zelda games had. This emphasis on combat difficulty and not challenging puzzles is the wrong direction and just depressing.

[@AREAlhero]

The puzzles were only challenging because you were a child. Play one again nowadays, literally none of their puzzles are challenging.

[@SecksyMan]

I do, I did, what? No, not even close. What are you talking about? The dungeons and puzzles are way more challenging in every single Zelda game except for BOTW. I just played Minish Cap Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword this year. All of those games have better and more challenging puzzles. I don't know what you're smoking other than maybe some copium. You go back and play those games. Get your head on straight. @@AREAlhero

[@AREAlhero]

@@SecksyMan I played literally all those same games this year. I can even recall my exact experience with them and all prior Zelda games in my childhood, where I breezed through them in the course of a weekend. Even Ura Zelda is a cakewalk. If you think those puzzles are challenging maybe you should find a hobby other than video games, they seem way out of your league.

[@Random1567]

Thanks for the reasonable, more mature take compared to some others. I do like Arlo, and I think he’s well intentioned, but I think this is a bit of a problem that keeps coming up for him. Either way, great discussion and I’m glad you guys talked about it.

[@NoonDragoon]

Arlo seems to have a habit of ignoring what developers are actually saying and instead chooses to interpret what they say in a very negative light.

[@chloro8306]

They basically confirm in this video that arlo's interpretation is fully correct. So what exactly is the issue

[@madnessarcade7447]

48:28 I’m glad Pokémon’s dev time is quite balanced 3-5 years is good

[@D3stinySm4sher]

Glad ya'll made the point that it's WEIRD to call out individual specific developers who don't have omnipresent power and influence over something. Like, for SURE Aonuma has a LOT of power over what happens in a new Zelda game. But why have we all collectively singled him out as THE person making the calls? Why is he specifically ALWAYS the one person being interviewed? Why do we act like he's the director of the games when he hasn't directed since Twilight Princess? We don't do this with Miyamoto, as a point of comparison, and yet Miyamoto still acts as an advisor/producer on many games despite barely directing any in a long time. I want to know why Aonuma has been slotted into this specific idol position by Nintendo, the press, and the consumers. I find it really strange. But. I also wanna know who's responsible for why Zelda is STILL not playable/the main hero in a mainline Legend of ZELDA game after all this time.

[@WhyYouWahYoo]

I appreciate you coming at the Aonuma topic with tact, a lot of people over-reacted to Arlo’s over-reaction and went ballistic. As a fan of his for a while now, I do think he tends to look too deeply into things, but the idea that he’s deliberately causing strife is ridiculous. I will say, I’ve never thought about the “single developer” thing before. Whether good or bad, the gaming community does very consistently act like games are the doing of one person, Sakurai with Smash, Aonuma with Zelda, etc. The more I think about this idea the scarier it gets, so I see why you’d point that out. I still love Arlo’s stuff, he’s genuinely well-meaning and is insanely respectful to his audience. I value that a lot, which is why I also love you guys! Heck, half the reason he made this video was because he felt Aonuma was not respecting HIS audience (again, an over-reaction). But he does need to cool it with the interview reactions. I remember a similar incident with Paper Mario’s producer.

[@RuuyG]

I completely disagree. I'm not a classic Zelda fan, and I don't think Arlo and people who agree with him overreacted at all. I really think Aonuma's comments were incredibly ignorant and baffling coming from someone that was there with classic 3D Zelda all the time, now he is basically saying it's "just nostalgia and objectively worse". As a game dev myself, I find this to be a very ignorant view on game design, and really surprising coming from the producer of some of the best games of all time. Kit and Krysta calling their interpretation of the comments "the truth" is very arrogant and disrespectful.

[@fernandoaleta9807]

​@@RuuyG Classic Zelda started to flop and new open world Zelda broke massive records (still is), facts over feelings, numbers don't lie

[@mkjjoe]

@@RuuyG I agree that Aonuma's comment warrants some concern, though that was one condensed transcript with translation so that's even more reason to be patient for a good idea of where they're going. However I don't think Kit or Krysta were being arrogant here, they're only giving credit to the other side of that interpretation using their experience communicating with Aonuma and some of the Zelda team before.

[@WhyYouWahYoo]

Going purely off the quote alone, I totally get why Arlo and other's were upset, which is why I couldn't really blame Arlo for making the video. But a more informed view, such as one from people who've met Aonuma and worked at Nintendo, though it maybe shouldn't have been framed as objective truth admittedly, is really helpful for seeing the whole picture. I don't feel like Aonuma's views on Zelda are as extreme as the quote makes them out to be. He tried to put "Old dungeons" in ToTK, and they're still re-releasing stuff like Skyward Sword and Link's Awakening. Actions speak louder than works, and though the quote is an unfortunate disregard of something that does have real value for the series, their actions speak to it not being that simple. @@RuuyG

[@RuuyG]

@@WhyYouWahYoo but they didn't really say anything that brought in any light at all. They only spoke about how he was probably just sad to get answer that after all of his achievements with the recent games, you don't say, I thought that the second I saw the headline. K&K said some interesting things about Nintendo really not caring for tradition, and how they have had discussions that Zelda was in a bad place before BOTW, but all of that doesn't change the fact at all that Aonuma really did basically say "open world Zelda is objectively better and anyone who thinks differently is blinded by nostalgia". And again, I say this as a non-classic Zelda fans that also agrees that it doesn't make commercial sense to chase after the like 2 million classic fans, even acknowledging all of that his comment is still extremely unreasonable, he could've just said "we are just looking to make games that will appeal to all fans" or something like that. Classic Zelda fans don't want just the old games being remade, and Arlo specifically, but also I think the majority of classic fans, want some classic elements in the new games. So your point of actions speak louder than words misses the point.

[@HoboWithAShotgun]

People need to calm down. First off its one interview that had to be translated, and second, they haven't even started the development of the next Zelda. They'll find a happy medium with the next installment. I prefer the open world freedom of TOTK, but i do enjoy a good dungeon. So in the next Zelda id like at least 7 or 8 dungeons.

[@sirmel11]

One thing I've noticed is that everyone is nerdy these days. People like games. People like anime. Social people, anti social, nerds, jocks, etc.

[@ShallBePurified]

The comment about Nintendo not caring about nostalgia is interesting, because they put a lot of stuff in their games that make people nostalgic. Like putting ruins of Lon Lon Ranch from OoT into BotW, or using all the amiibo throwback outfits into the depths of TotK. People who aren't nostalgic wouldn't care about those things, but they put it in there for long time fans. So while Nintendo themselves don't care about nostalgia, they sure do take advantage of people's nostalgia. Knowing that, it feels so corporate.

[@starscythe2099]

Frozen 1 is a good one. Frozen 2 didn’t hit the same for me but the animation is great. I’m not a Disney guy but Frozen 1 gets my respect.

[@brandonbarnett8069]

Cyberpunk is a style and theme/aesthetic not a character or person. It’s a style and theme like steampunk or solarpunk. “Cyberpunk” is a theme that has been around since the 70s and 80s with the 80s movie “Bladerunner” being an inspiration for the game.

[@Watchfa]

I love Mr.Cyberpunk

[@Zen.Connection]

The first Frozen is excellent and a must-watch IMO for anyone into animated fairy tale type movies. Frozen 2 is just alright IMO (could certainly be a lot worse, but definitely not on par with the first).

[@Dairunt1]

Apparently Frozen 2 was very rushed and had little time to flesh out the story.

[@benkizer9509]

My own personal opinion, but I'm very happy they went in a new direction with Zelda with Breath of the Wild. I was tired and bored of the "formula" by Skyward Sword. It seemed like they hit the wall with the whole "find a dungeon, find an item, kill a boss" format. Not saying I didn't enjoy games in that style. OG NES Zelda, Link to the Past, Ocarina of Time are all classics, but I started finding the whole format stale after a while. I like most of Arlo's videos, but sometimes he goes a bit overboard with his reactions on things, and it seemed he went that direction in the Aonuma video. Again, BOTW and TOTK are my two favorite Zelda games of all time, and other people might prefer the more linear games, and I don't think either opinion is better or worse, but I think for a game designer like Aonuma, it's trying to continue to do something fresh with the series, not revisiting old territory, and that might turn some people off.

[@athorem]

I don't understand saying that TotK is doing something fresh, because reusing the memories system, 'find the five terminal' dungeons, and the same overworld felt very stale after 6 years of Breath of the Wild

[@SamirSingh19-6]

Great episode

[@VinnytotheK]

1:05:52 Krysta casually desribes my life. 🥲

[@dragonsigner]

Can I have the link to the video of the interview with Mr. Aonuma..?

[@jaykebird2go]

I think the interview that spawned this whole discussion was a written interview. Sounds like it was by IGN in the lead-up to the Game Awards

[@Watchfa]

It wasn’t recorded.

[@adamkahmann2937]

Why can't we have both classic, 3D Zelda & modern, open world Zelda? Seriously if they can just combine the two that will be my new favorite game of all time.

[@eduardopazhurtado3882]

Tears of the Kingdom combines both, so, there you have your favorite game of all time.

[@adamkahmann2937]

@@eduardopazhurtado3882 It doesn't do it good enough for me. Still a great game, but I only see myself going back to the game for speedrun challenges & whatnot. I don't see myself playing the game casually ever again.

[@mkjjoe]

@@eduardopazhurtado3882 That's a step in places but sticks really close to BOTW's extreme non-linearity

[@XanderVJ]

Because modern and classic 3D Zelda games aren't as compatible, design-wise, as many people think. There are key elements in which they have fundamentally opposed design philosophies that, if you try to implement them trying to appeal to both audiences, you can easily end up satisfying just one group while actively pissing off the other, or worse, satisfying neither. The items are the biggest example. A lot of people think that just including items that open up the world little by little in a lineal fashion inside the open world would be enough to appease the older fans. But I think those people don't realize that would alienate new fans, because open world game fans hate, and I mean HATE gating content under a lineal progress in that way. They consider such system punishes exploration, since whenever you find something in the open world at your leasure, just to find out you can't access it just yet, feels anti-climatic to those people. They want the reward there and then, not having to memorize a place they will have to backtrack later. Problem is, that memorizing where an item is and coming back for it later is PRECISELY what most fans find appealing, since they feel like they are being rewarded for paying attention to their environment. This is an irreconciliable difference in which you just can't appeal to both groups at the same time. And this is only the items. You can say the same about many things in the design philosophy of both styles. You just can't combine them the way most people think. I think the only solution would be to create traditional 3D Zelda games as a separate third branch, made with smaller budgets and smaller teams, maybe even externalizing them to companies like Grezzo. Sure, the loss of status would sting a little, but traditional 3D Zelda fans would take that over the series moving forward while treating 30 years of game design philosophy like a necessary evil due to hardware limitations at best, and as a 30 year long mistake at worst.

[@Christopher-md7tf]

​@@XanderVJThis. Ultra Open World with maximum commitment to player freedom a la BotW and TotK is not compatible with 3D Metroidvania design a la Ocarina of Time. The most you could do is put oldschool, more linear dungeons into the Open World, which a lot of people had hoped TotK would do, but then it really didn't.

[@theteeman]

This is definitely worth listening to, especially when the first episode of the Kit and Krysta Podcast came out. Evolution is a crazy thing. Even though I'm new to Zelda, I definitely feel that I can learn something about Zelda past to present times. Great episode Kit and Krysta. Can't wait for 2024 and the milestone of 100 Episodes! The first Frozen is better than the second.

[@smashdriven1640]

I’m glad to hear you guys still hold Elden Ring in such high regard. You should absolutely try the new Lord’s of the Fallen game. It’s one of the best souls-like games I’ve ever played. It has some of the best boss and level designs out there. Plus the dimension switching mechanic is incredible. It gets a lot of hate for the performance issues which can be bad in a couple areas but overall the game has blown me away!

[@yazeldafan]

Twilight Princess was the best selling Zelda game before BOTW. You can't push a narrative that the series sales had a downward trend with just one game, especially when the previous game broke sales record. The fact is, Skyward Sword sales were bad. But it was Nintendo own fault. They released Skyward Sword during Wii twilight years, made it depended on an accessory, forced motion controls, very linear experience, no room for exploration, new artstyle that didn't appeal Oot and TP fans.... I Nobody pushes the same narrative for Mario games when Mario Galaxy 2 sold worse than Twilight Prinecss and had half of Galaxy 1 sales.

[@MedalionDS9]

The insecurity about gaming and being a "gamer" or how its still viewed as a bad thing by non-gamers is part of the reason why Video Games are not taken seriously everywhere else, and why the Game Awards has to appeal to Hollywood shenanigans over celebrating the games and devs themselves. Don't ask, why is Hollywood all over the Game Awards.. there's the reason why, you guys are not even proud of being recognized as gamers yourselves.

[@soridosuneku]

lol.. that last sentence is certainly a take from someone that likely has barely any connection to the industry

[@theorangecandle]

I mean the term gamer will always invoke a little cringe and I'm not sure if that will change. Getting invested in gaming is still kind of a niche hobby. Most people kind of just casually enjoy COD, FIFA, AC and don't really spend much time thinking about games as art.

[@benkizer9509]

Probably because the stereotype of a "gamer" is that of a lazy, anti-social man child who trash talks people online while snarfing down Doritos and Mountain Dew is still prevalent, even if it's not reality anymore.

[@sirmel11]

I wouldn't call myself a gamer. I don't do that. I say I play video games. I think saying "gamer" sounds nerdy.

[@sirmel11]

I get what they're saying. It's weird. Why would you call yourself a term?

[@NoonDragoon]

I would go a step further and say that I don’t think a lot of people reacting to Aonuma’s comments even actually read the interview. His actual answers were so innocuous and very clearly just his opinion, he basically stated that he personally didn’t quite understand why gamers would want a more limited type of game. But that he does understand nostalgia is a strong factor in wanting older Zelda styled games and he accepts that. It was such a typical interview answer, barely even really answering the question asked, and you’ve got tons of bad faith actors stating that Aonuma said “Old Zelda is dead forever”. It’s so weird to me, and I do think this type of outcry will just lead to Nintendo developers doing less interviews because anything they say will be scrutinized and criticized to hell and back.

[@Christopher-md7tf]

It's just the typical content mill looking for something to latch onto and get engagement. If we all took a step back and admitted to ourselves that most of what gets paraded around as "gaming news" is just oversensationalized, inconsequential nonsense not worth even thinking about, the majority of this whole online gaming landscape would instantly collapse lol

[@MedalionDS9]

Which Star Wars channels/podcasts you watching, Kit? We could be talking shop on Star Wars dude lol

[@pinto5012]

*Star Wars Theory has entered the chat* 😂

[@MedalionDS9]

LOL nooooo!!! @@pinto5012

[@dragonreaperkurisu8113]

People are starting to give criticisms to totk for choices in the story telling and repetitive design and felling tired of the annoying aspects of the game or burnt out, Aonuma and his team can find a legit way to give new life to the open world style in a creative way that adds the best of all worlds, image a open world wind waker style game with steampunk elements with amazing animation and good design that pays tribute to the series in a refreshing way, as long as the games are made good regardless of style then there's nothing wrong with 2d,classic 3d,and open world been made beside each other just like 2d and 3d mario

[@XanderVJ]

There is one misconception: "The Wind Waker" was NOT an open world game. You could technically go to all parts of the Great Sea from early on, but it was mostly an illusion. Once you got to any island, 9.5 times out of 10 you found out you couldn't access it because you still didn't have an item that you had to get following a lineal path. Getting rid of this kind of gated content was one of the main reasons why so many people asked Nintendo to go full open world back in 2011. This is another example of something I said in another comment that mixing up classic and open world Zelda is nowhere near as straight forward as most people think it is. (That being said, I'd still would want them to try. But just doing what TWW did and call it a day is not the solution).

[@dragonreaperkurisu8113]

I was giving an idea for a wind waker style open world zelda game with both of the best aspects of classic 3d and open world zelda design @@XanderVJ

[@mrshmuga9]

People have to "single out developers" because... they're the ones _in charge_ of those series. If fans disagree with their design philosophy, they need to be vocal. Otherwise, nothing will change. It's only an issue if that goes beyond "work" into their personal lives. But I've only seen that with Masuda (complaining or worse on posts unrelated to his work, like his vacation or something).

[@SchoolofRockNRoll]

i heard great praises for the cyberpunk anime!

[@_BootyTang_]

This is one of my favorite podcast episodes, I love how you guys always keep it real and i really do appreciate it

[@FatePokemon]

Nintendo could be anti nostalgia, but it sure does feel like they try to pander to nostalgia pretty often imo

[@mrwho995]

43:00 Love you guys, but I'm not really a fan of this comment to be honest. Obviously it goes without saying that it's good to embrace change. But to me, the comment comes across as dismissing people's opinions on what Zelda has become as just not being able to accept change, when the reality is far more nuanced than that. It's kind of doing the same thing that Arlo was frustrated with Aonuma for doing: not taking the opinion of someone you disagree with as legitimate or thought through, just because you disagree with them. In Aonuma's case it was dismissing that stuff as coming from nostalgia, in your case pretty much the same thing but instead framed by not being able to accept change. The reality of the situation is that it's neither of those reasons, and we just have genuine disagreement on certain design decisions made. So to be completely honest I think that second comment was the exact opposite of a "let's be adults" comment. Also, if it was a comment directed at Arlo I don't think it's really fair, especially given that he made it abundantly clear how much he adores BoTW.

[@Shinjiduo]

Why is nostalgia bad? You right off the rip associate using that word with dismissing of a argument However, you do not focus on what else was said by Aonuma paraphrased: "People tend to desire what they do not currently have." When Skyward Sword was out everyone complained it was too handholdy, too linear, too restrictive, too small / compact and god damned those motion controls! BOTW and TOTK are the perfect answer to all those problems and now you have very loud voices demanding to return all of those complaints to the game sans motion controls. How else do you describe those loud fans behavior?

[@mrwho995]

​@@Shinjiduo The rest of what Aonuma says only further reinforces my point. Again, he is dismissing people who have issues with the game as having illegitimate reasons; whether that reason is nostalgia or wanting what they don't have is completely irrelevant to my point. It should go without saying that different people like different things, and that the people who criticised SS may not be the same people criticising BoTW/ToTK. Also, although I love SS and BoTW, they are pretty much polar opposite in terms of design philosphy. It should go without saying that there can be a middle ground between these two extremes, and it's that middle ground that most of us who have issues with ToTK are asking for. It has nothing to do with nostalgia or wanting what we don't have; it's assessing what was produced on its own merits, and discussing where we think they could have done better.

[@Shinjiduo]

@@mrwho995 Who said nostalgia is illegitimate? Certainly not Aonuma or Fujibayashi. You put context into both of their mouths, particularly Aonuma-San. Here is the problem with the "we can split the difference" argument. As you said, BOTW / TOTK has a opposing design philosophy than Twilight Princess / Skyward Sword which means they are subtractive to one another. If you split the difference between classic Zelda and open world Zelda you are going to end up with a game that satisfies no one. It will be too tight and restrictive for new fans and too easy and "cheesable" for classic fans. You basically will lose everyone.

[@mrwho995]

​@@Shinjiduo Nostalgia is an entirely personal feeling, and only effects personal enjoyment; it has nothing to do with the actual quality of something, and that's what is being discussed here. I genuinely don't understand how that is even up for debate; it's just inherently obvious that nostalgia is not a legitimate reason to say something is good or bad. It's a perfectly legitimate factor for personal enjoyment, but that's a separate discussion. I think the argument that there can be no middle ground is very overly simplistic. There is no neat dividing line between 'new Zelda' and 'old Zelda'; its a continuum between Skyward Sword, that fully embraced the concept of a meticulously hand-crafted linear experience, and BoTW/ToTK that embraces exploration and player freedom above everything else. Wind Waker is a beloved game and is probably the quintessential example of a middle ground between the two styles. A Link Between Worlds is a great example as well. Really, pretty much *every* Zelda Nintendo have ever produced have existed somewhere in-between Skyward Sword and BoTW/ToTK, because those two games are pretty unique in how heavily they invest in their respective philosophies of a hand-crafted linear experience and a fully open one. I don't think there's any evidence at all that a mixed approach would end up satisfying no-one, and I don't think even *Nintendo* thinks about it in this way, because it looks like they tried to reintroduce some more classic elements in ToTK, even if in my opinion they didn't do a good job. Anyway, I don't wanna get in a huge back and forth over this (and I'm guessing K&K would rather we didn't as well), so maybe we should just respectfully agree to disagree.

[@mrshmuga9]

@@Shinjiduo You're as blind as Aonuma. "People complain about SS, but now they complain about BotW! They can't make up their mind!" Or, you never paid attention to their critiques and making up a strawman. It isn't that SS was bad for being _linear,_ it's that it was a done to an _extreme._ As in, there's ways of doing it _effectively_ (like many previous games), without going so far to be detrimental (an extreme), but SS took it too far. That doesn't mean the solution is to go in a complete opposite direction.

[@cloudtune.]

If you enjoy video games on a regular basis then you are a gamer. Which isn't a bad thing at all. I think it's a little silly for Kit to imply that he's not a gamer, despite playing video games regularly and hosting a whole gaming podcast 💀 I think the term gamer having a negative connotation is very outdated

[@ritster21]

It’s not a negative thing anymore. However, I don’t think it’s a positive thing either.

[@TreJowy]

I watch movies regularly too, but I don't call myself a "movier" or whatever. Labels are stupid.

[@XanderVJ]

"Gamer" goes well beyond "someone who plays video games regularly" or even "makes video game related content". It's kind of an identity for a lot of people, which I think is what Kit objects to, and he's reluctant to use the name for himself.

[@thespeedyyoshi]

Ayyy Arlo mention ^^ Very good channel fyi.

[@sirmel11]

You can add an actual story mode and more characters. It doesn't need to be changed too much.

[@mrwho995]

It's reassuring to hear you guys say that Nintendo still values the 2D games. It's really hard to believe they still value the 2D games when we went the entire lifetime of the Switch without a single new 2D Zelda, not including the LA remake or NSO stuff, and the last new single player 2D Zelda was over 10 years ago now. I think Nintendo completely failed at adequately filling the gap between BoTW and ToTK, so that faith that they understand the value of 2D Zelda has been lost for me, but obviously you guys know what you're talking about more than pretty much anyone who speaks freely on this, so again it's definitely reassuring.

[@XanderVJ]

43:00 There is a difference between "embracing change" and "throwing the baby out with the bath water". Which is what a lot of fans, myself included, feel is what has happened with BotW and TotK. I really liked BotW, I've completed it 3 times to 100% (minus Korok seeds), once fully in Japanese during the few months prior to the launch of TotK, and it's easily my favorite game of the last decade*. But I'm of the opinion that it didn't feel like an evolution of the classic 3D Zelda formula, but rather a complete change of genre altogether. Or in more crude terms: it doesn't feel like a Zelda game. At most, it feels like a spin-off. And EXTREMELY good spin-off, but a spin-off all the same. It doesn't scratch the same itch traditional 3D Zelda games used to scratch any more than the "Hyrule Warriors" games (which I also liked, BTW). During the last 6 years, traditional Zelda fans have been constantly asking Nintendo to try to bring back at least some elements from previous games to make TotK feel more in line which what made us fall in love with the series. Not to go back to the "Ocarina of Time" template wholesale. Seriously, that's a false narrative. Just to try to blend both styles to some degree so long time fans would feel more at home. This wasn't any kind of fringe movement, this is something pretty much all old Zelda fans where asking. And it's not like we didn't have any reasons to hope for that. "Fire Emblem: Awakening" also created a split in the "Fire Emblem" fan base despite its massive popularity. But instead of throwing older fans away and embracing new fans exclusively, Intelligent Systems started to look for ways to keep both camps moving forward from the very next game. Sure, it didn't work and "Fire Emblem Fates" was a mess, but at least they tried. And they didn't give up after that either. They kept pushing forward with that approach and managed to find a bigger common ground with "Three House". But the pleads from Zelda fans, not only did they fall on deaf ears and Nintendo doubled down on pretty much everything that separated BotW from the rest of the series, but now Mr. Aonuma dismisses those pleads as... just nostalgia? I'm sorry, but Arlo is right here when he said those comments just don't feel right, melodramatic tone non-withstanding (side note: Arlo is ALWAYS melodramatic, so I don't know why people reacted so surprised there). And honestly, this feels to me like a case of the "Shin Megami Tensei" and "Persona" series. The latter started off as a spin-off of the former, but it became so popular on its own right that it ended up utterly eclipsing the original series, to the point that now the spin-off has become the new face of the brand. I think something similar has happened with Zelda. Except..., that Atlus kept making core SMT games after the success of "Persona", while Nintendo seems to consider the idea down-straight absurd. And that's the issue here. That if we take this situation at face value, "embracing change" in this scenario means "we're not gonna play new games from the series we loved in the foreseeable future... if ever again". If that's the case... then Zelda died in 2013 with "A Link Between Worlds" at best, and in 2011 with "Skyward Sword" at worst**. Pretty much the same scenario that, according to you guys, we had had anyway if BotW didn't "save the franchise". And I gotta say it. If this is the case, BotW may had saved the Zelda IP. But it sure as hell didn't save the franchise. * Yes, this means I think BotW is a better game than TotK. A MUCH better game, in fact. And I mean that while comparing those two exclusively, without comparing it to classic 3D Zelda games at all. But explaining why would take me like an entire PhD dissertation, and this post is long enough already, so let's leave it there. ** I'm not 100% sold on the idea that Nintendo will make new 2D Zelda games to appease older fans. If anything, I think they will try to make 2D open world games. But even if they make them old-school, 2D Zelda still has its own flavor distinct from 3D Zelda games. I would welcome them nonetheless, of course, but we'll see.

[@mrshmuga9]

The whole "don't worry, they still value 2D" sounds like a cope because the future for classic fans looks so dour. I mean it took 10 years just for them to make an original 2D _Mario_ game, and Mario is their is the face of their company. Zelda is even less likely, especially if the people in charge have no interest in making more linear games. So who exactly is going to be headlining these games in no one in power is interested? At the very least, Mario at least got 2 Mario Maker games so those devs didn't work on (and fans received) _nothing_ and it was "semi-new" since those objects were used in ways to construct new levels. But Zelda didn't even get that, just a remake of a GB game. They're not even interested in making a Zelda Maker either. So the prospects of some kind of new/semi-new 2D Zelda is very poor, other than the fact that "it's been so long, so maybe you'll get one". And even then, I highly doubt it's going to be some priority as suggested. Likely just "we made a new 2D Zelda... see you in another 10 years, maybe". They're more likely to do 3rd party spin-offs like the Warriors games, Cadence of Hyrule, or something else. We obviously don't know everyone who works there, but it looks like no one with seniority is interested in making 2D Zelda, and with how much these open-world games sell, Nintendo itself likely doesn't see a need to push them out at all/regular basis.

[@mrwho995]

Excellent comment. Fully agreed. Just like you, I loved BoTW, and was so incredibly excited for what it could mean for the future of Zelda. But after Tears of the Kingdom, and especially after that Aonuma interview, that excitement has turned to a deep disappointment, and almost a resignation to the fact that the Zelda I love may be a thing of the past. That may sound melodramatic, but when, despite *making the games*, Mr Aonuma doesn't seem to understand why people loved them so much, it's hard to be hopeful that there's any appetite in Nintendo to revisit what made the old games so great within the new framework created by BoTW. Maybe they can turn things around with the next game, but with Krysta very explicitely saying that Nintendo doesn't care about the core fans (I admire her honesty), and with Aonuma's perspective seemingly being that his own old games don't have merit compared to the new style beyond nostalgia and wanting what you don't have, I'm not hopeful about that any more. I'll be pleasantly surprised if it happens, and on the assumption it won't, I'll look for new franchises that can do what Nintendo doesn't want to anymore.

[@mrwho995]

@@mrshmuga9 Yeah... I mean, the record just speaks for itself. It's been *10 years* since the last single player 2D Zelda, and *even that*, as much as I love it, wasn't a fully new game, because it copied the map from ALttP. Before that we had the DS games, which some people don't really consider 2D Zeldas in the traditional sense either (although I probably would). The most recent undisputed, completely new 2D Zelda was Minish Cap in 2004, which was created by a 3rd party studio. That was almost 20 years ago. In the last 10 years, all we've got is a multiplayer game near-universally considered one of the worst in the entire franchise, and a remake. That's it. It's really hard to look at that and think Nintendo still cares at all about 2D Zelda.

[@AREAlhero]

People need to realize that if a critique includes the phrase "BotW/TotK don't feel like Zelda games they feel like spin-offs" you can immediately discard that opinion for it is already on tainted ground. They feel like Zelda. Straight up, no ifs ands or buts. If you didn't get that, then you quite literally do not understand Zelda on even the basest level.

[@mrwho995]

@@AREAlhero Your argument is so absurdly stupid it doesn't even deserve a response.

[@ArtemiyNizovtsev]

With how much you guys love Elden Ring, you really should try other From Software games. May I suggest Bloodborne? Just like you, I got obsessed with Elden Ring last year and went through all of their other souls-like games since then, and they’re all fantastic! If you got through Elden Ring, you can get through any one of them.

[@cyberrb25]

I remember one Nintendo developer on Twitter saying he doesn't like that he's said to be making art. As we're talking about, I'ma refrain from singling him out, because we might end up having some backlash because of it.

[@Shinjiduo]

The developer is right. Games are from inception a commercially viable product. Art is something that is conceived with emotion and passion exclusively initially, but then becomes commercially viable as time progresses and said product has time to enter the cultural consciousness. Are games a creative pursuit, yes. However, games are too infected with the profit motive over emotions to be art.

[@King_Luigi]

Hiding who said something makes that statement meaningless.

[@Shadowninja8]

People might not agree with me but i got into zelda with breath of the wild. The idea of having to collect all these heart pieces was something i just didn't like so them getting rid of that kind of made me more interested. 43:06 embracing change is something gamers absolutely refuse to do. Everything always has to be the same. Every time nintendo does something new and different people get mad.

[@King_Luigi]

You realize you're still doing that right? Spirit Orbs/Light of Blessing are the same thing. 4 of them will get you a Heart Container, just like the 'pieces' did in older games. They just turned it into a "currency" that can also be exchanged for Stamina.

[@Shadowninja8]

@King_Luigi that's true. I guess the the only difference is that you don't have to play minigames to get them.

[@kroberjam1081]

Thank you guys for the insightful talk Kit and Krysta. Im happy you two talked about this current discourse going around with the Zelda series and recent interviews with Aonuma and Fujibayashi. Like you guys said i really wish people would stop trying paint anything said in these interviews in a negative light. Its baffling that people think for some reason there will never be another 2d zelda game especially when links awakening was just released this gen as a stop gap between botw and totk. Also like Kit said @ 40:01, i wish people having these discussions about video games would be adult and not demonize and villainize these singular developers/game makers. It happened with Miyamoto during mainline Mario and Mario sidegame discussions, Neil Druckman with Last of Us, its happening with Aonuma now, and during the Wii U era i noticed happening with Iwata and Reggie. And while I understand the intention of Arlo's content and his videos isnt to single out and villainize a certain dev, alot of times that mentality is propagated from it. Because i do like hearing insight and thoughts of developers and it would hurt me if Aonuma or Fujibayashi stops giving interviews because people are being immature and overly reactive to anything they say in interviews. But thank you guys for discussing it again, hopefully people chill out and learn to have more mature and respectful discussions.

[@dragonsigner]

How can you say Nintendo doesn't care about the past. When they release old games on newer systems or make remakes of older games. that's a prime example of the honor of their past.... A Japanese thing to honor your ancestors. While progressing towards the future.. balance in all things that they can

[@geschnitztekiste4111]

Also during the 3DS era all they did was reference SMB3 lol

[@sirmel11]

Good episode!

[@goldmemberpb]

Arlo stating that Zelda series is going in a wrong direction after only two games would like if people got tired of the old 3d formula after just Majoras Mask. Maybe let the formula actually exist for a good while before deciding that. it also does not help his argument when the new open air style made zelda way way more popular than ever before on top of not diluting the game quality at all. If any thing, BoTW and Totk are some of the most complex controlling zelda games to date.

[@oddishu]

Every time I hear the word "gamer" and I get a flashback to my junior year high school psychology class where we had a guest speaker come to class, she was about 25-30 years old and she stopped in the middle of speech to ask the class, "where are my gamers at? Raise your hands". I guarantee you, at least half my class played at least some type of games and NO ONE raised their hands which leas to an awkward silence. It was soo awkward and cringey. That word is so cringey.

[@norellireveron3670]

My first Zelda was BOTW and is my favorite game ever. In the last few years I played OOT, ALBW, OOA, SW and TOTK. I love all these games for different reasons. They all have the essence of a great adventure. I will eventually go back to as many Zelda games I can get my hands on and I believe I will love them all. However I want the franchise to evolve, to go forward, to try new things, they will not always get it right, many things they tried in SW were fully realized in BOTW. If they keep making the same formula or go back, sorry but the franchise will disappear. See what is happening at Disney with Marvel, as successful as they were they far exhausted the formula. Also, as professionals, and as a development team that has been doing Zelda games for decades, they have the right to want to explore new ways to make these games, if gamers were tired of the same formula, imagine how tired the people making them were, employees at Nintendo don’t rotate that much, so these guys have made a bunch of zelda games. I think people should have patience and see what comes next, a lot of what they did with the past two games were first tries or second tries. They listened to a lot of people’s comments on BOTW on TOTK they are not obtuse but also they can’t design a game that does what every single fan wants. I trust them to do right by the franchise, in my opinion, they have so far, even from things they didn’t fully accomplish completely they have learn and make better in the next game. I also think that people project their own feelings on other people to find validation, i saw a video where someone said that only a very small group of players cared or engaged with ultra hand that “real zelda fans” didn’t care but I find it hard to believe that you can sell 20 million copies of a game in a few months if most people have no interest in the main mechanic of said game. Of course some people don’t like this new format it’s normal, not everyone would, but they wouldn’t have been as successful if most people didn’t love them.

[@lesliealvarado3257]

Hey! Playing games by yourself is not lame! ☹️☹️☹️

[@simoncucho]

Oh my god but Kit not using cyberware implants on his first playthrough of Cyberpunk is like playing a fantasy RPG without equipping armor/accessories LOL. Also I'm afraid to say that the Life Path you choose (Corpo, Street Kid, Nomad) affects little to nothing in the story. The ONLY thing it really affects it's the first 30 minutes of gameplay and then dialogue options you get with people through the game, but the story doesn't really split, if anything, it starts separated and then just unifies, which is something all the Cyberpunk community agrees is a bit of a shame, since it sets expectations that are never really met. Also, might I add, the updates and overhauls are very drastic to the game, but after not playing it for a year or more, I do understand that they don't "feel" impactful because honestly, who remembers the old skill trees and progression system? Thing is with skill trees specifically is that they made A LOT of new gameplay styles viable. Wanna be a katana wielding merc that can double jump, do air dashes and enter bullet-time at will? You can! Do you want to be an expert netrunner that can clear out a building just through security camera hacks and fry people's cyberbrains? You can! Do you wanna drive a giant combat vehicle loaded with rockets and jump out of said vehicle crashing it into an enemy area while taking out your sniper rifle midair a la Fortnite? You can! Very excited to hear Kit's thoughts once he reaches the expansion part of the game! They do new and different things and you can really tell they were thinking how can we mix up what we have, instead of just delivering more of what the game already offers (which is already great!).

[@PokemonLucas100]

I feel like BOTW & TOTK were such brand new concepts that too so long to make, that the veteran LoZ fan base was in shock to have to wait so long for new games. I personally also felt like the “dungeons” in TOTK were a familiar concept similar to previous dungeons, I’ve played before, but with TOTK’s own twist. this has been such an experimental time with the franchise that it’s understandable that not everyone is taking it well, but we have to be understanding of the changing times as well.

[@coolguychecker7329]

I saw the Aonuma interview but not the backlash, which is disappointing. I appreciate your level-headed discussion of it, as that's just not very typical in the gaming space but very much needed. It does feel like that people forgot that, before Breath of the Wild, Zelda was trending downwards. I loved Skyward Sword, but most people I knew couldn't get past the Kikwi hide and seek. A Link Between Worlds and Breath of the Wild really shook things up in a really needed way, and definitely brought back Zelda fans they had previously lost in addition to expanding their audience. What worked so well for Ocarina of Time definitely didn't continue to work in Skyward Sword, and I think the sales show that players more or less agree with that. So I don't quite understand the call for Zelda to return to this era of diminishing appeal. However, I think Tears of the Kingdom did try to cater to this crowd, but clearly the Zelda team's conception of traditional Zelda differs substantially from this crowd's. In the way I experienced the game, Tears of the Kingdom was very much a return to classic 3D Zelda, it felt kind of like playing Twilight Princess or Skyward Sword inside Breath of the Wild. Much of that was to its detriment. Even though I loved the old 3D Zeldas, I think the series would benefit from ignoring these calls and continue to switch up the formula to fit the new mechanics as much as possible. I think Tears of the Kingdom would have benefitted not just from leaving Ocarina of Time in the past, but Breath of the Wild as well. Shrines, blood moons, Korok seeds, and all the progression tied to them, in my opinion, didn't provide the best structure to really elevate the new mechanics to the level they deserved. I think there was a way to reuse the map without those things, that would have leaned better into these new ideas and avoided this whole conversation about traditional Zelda altogether.

[@uncario]

Gamer is a loaded term that no longer purely means “someone who games as a hobby” or “likes to play games”. For better or worse, that ship has likely sailed for good.

[@SanjiGenial]

You know, about Zelda, sales are one thing. I am a "core Zelda fan", I buy pretty much everything about Zelda, I bought the Collector's Edition, the Switch OLED Zelda edition, the controller, the official guide, amiibo... Does it mean that I think everything is perfect in BOTW / TOTK? No, absolutely not. As creators, I guess that they always want to make a better game, a game that everyone love. BOTW / TOTK are great games. Really. And yes, making Zelda a open-world was a good thing abviously. BUT it can still be much better, they don't have to make everything free to explore, everything breakable (and no, I am not talking about our arms). You don't even have to think anymore to solve a puzzle, the dungeons are small, simple, pretty much all the same game design (activate this, and this, no real progression). Oh and also, you get all the tools at the beginning of the games, it means that you will not discover new "objects" or tools to play with. And the bestiary is just too small for a big OW like this, after like 20 hours you don't discover new ennemies, which is a shame. They don't have to go back to the old formula, but you can still take things from the old formula and make it work on the open-world game. We all thought that they took 6 years to make TOTK because the dungeons would be big and great, but no. We all thought that the world would change a lot... well, there is the sky and the underground, but the Hyrule we knew was pretty much the same. They sold me TOTK, and I think that it is great, but still, of course people will ask them to improve the formula. I am a Zelda fan, I bought everything for 30 years and I know exactly what I like and what I don't like in a Zelda game. There are many things that I don't like in BOTW / TOTK, and I think that people are talking about it because I am not the only one to think like that. Aonuma san is the producer, of course he can be proud about what they made, about his work. But his job is also to understand that, no, if we like the old games it's not only because of nostalgia. Tbh, it doesn't matter if the interview was for Game Awards or anything else, it was a really bad way to respond to the question and bad communication.

[@mrshmuga9]

Having the main tools at the start can work. And you do find Zonai throughout the game that while not necessary, do make things more interesting (or manageable, like the control stick). It's just that they never really take advantage of it. The benefit would be the developers knowing what baseline tools every player has, and be able to build puzzles that utilize most of them, most of the time, and in more unique ways. Instead, the uses are very basic and not really used in conjuction with each other. You use one tool to do the one obvious thing to solve [problem], then another. You don't really have to use them at the same time. Granted, there's plenty of classic dungeons that didn't use items in tandem (moreso with Skyward Sword), but these new games are also changing that so it should be better, not the equivalent or worse. Otherwise there wasn't a point in doing it.

[@SanjiGenial]

@@mrshmuga9 Yup I agree with your comment, I thought that the Zonai devices were a way to still discover new mechanics to specific areas. They made it a little in TOTK... but just not enough, and most of the time you don't even have to use it, you always have "another way" to solve a puzzle. But still, I really love in the old games when you get new tools and you think "ah, now I can do that, and find what was the secret at this place, or go here...". Of course it never happens now. It's also a problem because the games are big and very long to finish. When you play 100 hours, 150 or 200 hours, well, it's a little bit boring to just use the same tools that you got at the beginning again and again. What do you get when you finish a dungeon? Annoying friends with you (thx for the framerate). 😂 At least the goron helps for mining and the rito is ok. I still find it not very exciting as a reward.

[@HoboWithAShotgun]

To be fair about the six years thing. There was also covid during like half of that, which certainly contributed to it

[@absolutespider3532]

Definitely appreciate your discussion on Aonuma's comments. Feel like I can understand his comments a bit better now that I have more context. I can certainly understand why fans who don't like the new direction were disappointed by what he said, but I do feel like some Zelda fans are overreacting. At the end of the day, the Zelda team has proved that they do listen to and try to address criticism and I don't think anything Aonuma said suggests that they are going to stop doing that. I read his comments as him saying that they don't have any interest in going back to the Ocarina of Time formula and I think that's fair if that is how the dev team feels. I'm sure the dev team wants to please old fans if possible, but it also seems like they are very excited by what they've been able to do with Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom and honestly I just hope they are able to keep making games that they feel legitimately passionate about, even if I do have some problems with BoTW and ToTK. Could Aonuma have worded his answer where talks about understanding the "nostalgia" for the old games a bit better, sure, but some people seem to be acting like that answer is tantamount to him insulting all long time Zelda fans, which I think is being a bit overdramatic.

[@FatePokemon]

I don’t think Arlo necessarily meant it to single out Aonuma, but if you take the words from that interview for what they are it’s hard to not be disappointed as a long time Zelda fan. I think that’s all Arlo wanted to express with that video. Also it’s completely fine to talk about that being your opinion. I don’t think he, or the general public, shouldn’t express their opinion and just accept the change without being able to talk about it. Just my two cents, not that they mean anything LOL

[@TheBreadPirate]

You're right! It is fine to air out opinions. It's also fine if people disagree on opinions. Arlo did nothing wrong. Neither did Aonuma.

[@FatePokemon]

@@TheBreadPirate yeah that’s fair!

[@Christopher-md7tf]

The main problem I have with "taking the words as they are" is that all we have to work with is the translation into English. There have been several instances in the past where it turned out after the fact that poor translation was to blame for misunderstandings.

[@hokut3n]

For me, personally, I'd like a return to the classic Ocarina of Time style of Zelda. I miss having a weapon that didn't break, I miss a more epic OST and I miss thematic dungeons a lot. Just my thoughts though. I LOVE BotW for what it was but Tears of the Kingdom was just an expansion of BotW. It wasn't as revolutionary.

[@Drybones2015]

Twilight Princess was the best-selling title in the series prior to the success of BotW and the Switch overall. So I'm just confused how the series could have been considered on the down slope just because they released a controversial game with controversial controls on a system that people stopped caring about by the time it was released. What I think irked people so badly about that interview was how condescending Aonuma's response felt to the idea of people still wanting games with the classic 3D Zelda structure and maybe even preferring it over BotW, basically diminishing their opinion down to just nostalgia. I don't think it's an impossible task to implement what old-school Zelda fans think are missing into the new open world formula. People (and Nintendo) seem to forget that Wind Waker was essentially BotW before BotW, but a scaled down version. The Zelda team has already done open world + classic 3D Zelda structure.

[@IAmHermaeusMora]

Art and artists are subject to criticism, and criticism itself is conducive for improvement and free expression. While your insights regarding Nintendo's internal operations are appreciated, perhaps you cross a boundary when trying to speak for what Aonuma may or may not feel, which seems belied by a bias from your personal relationships with him and Nintendo itself. As I recall, you two often mention the late Satoru Iwata cautioned Nintendo's staff not to rest on their laurels and thus become complacent, and with that in mind, Aonuma and other developers should not be surprised by criticism or potent feedback lest they fall prey to hubris. Arlo is not incorrect in charging Aonuma as being akin to an auteur, especially when he is so evidently dismissive of critical feedback. As for Nintendo itself, it should change its "mentality" (as Krysta put it) because this contempt for its core audience can lead to demonstrable and irrevocable damage. Both Aonuma and Nintendo should accept criticism with grace and understanding, even if they disagree in principle.

[@Christopher-md7tf]

There is no "contempt" lol, Gamers with a capital G are just entitled and oversensitive AF. Funny how vocal minorities always seem to think of themselves as the "core audience", but that means very little when the games sell like hot cakes and are are among the most critically acclaimed of all time. I see no reason why Aonuma should rather listen to the opinion of a chronically online minority than to the overwhelmingly positive mainstream feedback. Also, calling Aonuma an auteur is a little ridiculous when he didn't even direct or write those games we're talking about. As K+K said, he is a producer, concerned with big picture stuff. An auteur, on the other hand, is somebody who gets involved with every part of the process and exerts a lot of control on every single element. The stereotypical video game example would be Kojima: For example, Death Stranding lists him as not only producer, but also director, designer, and writer. I mean, the dude was so fed up with the creative constraints of working inside a big, established publisher, that he founded his own studio in order to be able to do his own thing. It is very hard to imagine Aonuma ever doing that.

[@chloro8306]

​@@Christopher-md7tf I think this kind of response to mild criticism is extremely oversensitive. Feeling entitled to exist without criticism while levelling these accusations against others is a bit hypocritical

[@Christopher-md7tf]

@@chloro8306 Huh? Neither I or Mr Aonuma feel "entitled to exist without criticism", no idea where you got that from. It's actually insane to me how many things people read into his comments that he didn't actually say. What I mean by "entitled" is what I already explained, automatically thinking of yourself as the "core audience" for some reason and apparently thinking that the series needs to appeal to you and people who think like you first and foremost, which just isn't the case, no matter who you are. Nintendo doesn't owe anybody anything, no matter how big of a fan you are and how long you've been following the series, they are going to make the games that they want to make and that's it. Criticize away as much as you want but stop making up nonsense like "Nintendo has contempt for their core audience" (lmao) or a supposed inability to take criticism just because one guy made one remark in one interview that rubbed a content creator who does a puppet show for grown-ups the wrong way.

[@chloro8306]

@@Christopher-md7tf Your over the top reaction to simple criticism betrays the entitlement.

[@Christopher-md7tf]

@@chloro8306 Me explaining and arguing my point is an "over the top reaction" now? Lol ok little buddy. How about you come back to this discussion when you've got something a little more meaningful to contribute than "no u"?

[@LoopHole101Z]

48:20 the way to fix it, imo, is by having less new open world games, thereby saving money on asset development, and also not aiming for the most realistic graphics. Instead, developers should focus on the game aspect. They should ask themselves, is the game fun to play? Does the story of the game leave an impact on the player? Is the game too long or too short? Does the game perform properly? These are the kind of questions developers should be asking. Not, "how big can we make the world, and how should we occupy it?", or "How can we make this game look as good as possible, performance be damned?". No, first, craft the main part of the game, and keep polishing it until its blinding, and then polish it again. I don't care if the main part of the game is the only part. Hell, I don't even care if that's the only part and its short. As long as it's well made, is fun, and engaging. Sidequests could be added later, maybe by a seperate team. But the main quest should be what the main team focuses on, to give the most engaging and fun time possible. Basically: quality >>>> quantity. Open worlds arent the "solution" to gaming, and its a mistake to think that zelda was the first one to do open worlds. Theres nothing wrong with linear games too. The only reason Zelda switched formulas was because of dev burnout (at least thats what it seems like) and lack of sales. But lets be clear here. Theres other ways to solve this problem, without changing the formula entierly. One idea is to straightup promote all devs that were there since Ocarina of Time to supervisor roles. Hire new blood, from a new generation of zelda fans, and let the old staff teach the new generation how they developed a Zelda game, and let the new gen go wild (under supervision obviously). Sometimes, actaully many times, the newer generation has fresher and more interesting ideas than that of the old staff. And its not like this such an unheard of concept, even in Japan, where seniority is very important. The anime industry, at least back in the day, was all about this. In-between animators were trained in house, to eventually become key animators and to exhibit their own styles and ambitions. Then, they become animation directors, and then storyboarders, where they can show off their understanding of what they want the viewer to see. And finally, to the kantoku role, or episode director role, which is qn even bigger role, and lets them showcase they're directorial methods, deciding how the viewer should emote and feel in the epsiode. One of the biggest examples of breakout directors in the past year or two is Megumi Ishitani, of One Piece episode 1015 fame, who studied under a different experienced director at the studio, and learned a lot, and eventually showed off her vision when she became a director herself. Thats what training new blood does - it harvests and brings out the freshest ideas and concepts.

[@RoboticEdward]

I feel "not caring about nostalgia" is not really accurate. From a CREATIVE standpoint, sure. They definitely are wanting and needing to move forward. From a BUSINESS standpoint though...that's just not true lol. If they didn't care about nostalgia a lot of moments in recent Nintendo games where they're like "remember that?" wouldn't be such a sticking point. Plus with the amount of remakes that have been announced and will be announced in the future, I think Nintendo NEEDS nostalgia, at least from a business perspective. As I said from a creative standpoint, I understand wanting to make something knew, but I feel we're at a point where TotK is the "new Skyward Sword". Not from a sales perspective but rather how a lot of people felt about it, and a lot of people feel strongly towards it, myself included. I never finished it because I just got bored and rage quit after not being able to figure out how to get to the water temple. I didn't bother finishing it because I just didn't care. In all fairness as you said, Aonuma can only say so much in an interview setting like that. I just wish we were able to get into the root instead of trying to be all wishy-washy about the whole thing and act like there isn't a potential problem.

[@SimpCity2000]

I don’t know. I feel like Nintendo’s philosophy of innovation first is going to just keep bringing them to open world. BOTW and TOTK aren’t interesting beyond ultra hand, and even then too much of that is just annoying to deal with. I miss narrative-focused Zelda with limitations and a truly great experience not these mile-wide but inch deep worlds. Ocarina of Time, Twilight Princess, Majoras Mask all much more fun and replayable than the switch Zelda games to be honest.

[@sirmel11]

The games barely having stories made them quite boring for me.

[@HoboWithAShotgun]

The gameplay in TOTK is better than any other Zelda. I get missing the story, but have you played skyward Sword? It takes forever to get to the first area, then you still have to go through the kikwi garbage, sooooo irritating. The constant (uninteresting) dialogue and heavy handed attempt at making me "realize" how epic the story is was beyond irritating... The dungeons were great though

[@mrshmuga9]

Twilight Princess sold over 8M, not 2M... if that (and thinking something is only a success if it sells 10's of Millions of units), no wonder you have a warped view that the fanbase was this niche thing. Granted, it likely wasn't as big/growing as Nintendo had hoped, but it was by no means small. Might as well say the Kirby series is "dying" because they only sell 1M units or less per game. I guess Kirby needs to be upended now.

[@quezcatol]

I started with Zelda back on the NES in 1991 and I do think open world zelda is the future, however, the dungeons for ex in Skyward sword was so much better than BOTW or TEARS. Either improve and expand dungeons, or remove them all together, and make Zelda just an open world action adventure game. I have a feeling the reason why dungeons are losing its importance is because... people dont like getting stuck, its what most player hated or left zelda games from, so I get Nintendo- but dont lie and say you will have dungeons in Tears this time and then do "that". But yeah, if zeldas future is just more action and less "thinking" its fine by me, but that Zelda soul is then gone. FF16 was a great game, but I miss the old FFs. Now it became a DMC with FF clothes and I get why people didnt like it.

[@chooongusbug724]

"less thinking" my guy, by the time Skyward Sword came out, the two previous 3d entries and SS were spoiling puzzles with the companions and holding your hand. You gotta take off the rose tinted glasses, I love all these games as much as the next person but to say "less thinking" just isn't true and it's a very dismissive statement towards what the open entries are going for...Which is play how you want and figure it out in your own way.

[@quezcatol]

@@chooongusbug724 I didnt get stuck on one puzzle of the "main story" in tears of a kingdom. not one. where I had to think for a few minutes. not one. that is a joke.

[@chooongusbug724]

@@quezcatol ok? that means nothing. I didn't get stuck in the classic 3d games due to all the handholding and Fi, Midna, KoRL, etc. spoiling puzzles for me. Not to mention WW, TP, and SS having very linear dungeons it was impossible to get stuck. These games are made for people of all ages, don't act like the older 3d entries were any harder. And if you mention Water Temple in OoT? Skill issue

[@AREAlhero]

@@quezcatol This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what a puzzle is. A puzzle where you intuitively get everything immediately is a well designed puzzle; quite literally the archetypical perfect puzzle.

[@quezcatol]

@@chooongusbug724 If you dont think the issue of zelda has always been that people getting stuck at some point and later bored, then you are free to believe so. this game was way too easy for me, if they wanna appeal kids this time around- thats fine, but dont call it going back to the "dungeons" when not really offering them.

[@stephenduble1901]

Really liked this episode...a lot more grounded than a lot of the sensationalist takes we get over and over again online (I do understand how sensationalist takes means more interest...but perhaps we've become oversaturated with them). Great talk and really enjoy the podcast~

[@eduardopazhurtado3882]

Who the hell would even state that Aonuma is taking Zelda into "the wrong direction"? That's such an ignorant statement, facts alone showcase that Zelda has never been on a better momentum. The old style just doesn't work anymore, and this comes from someone who played Twilight Princess on GameCube for years. That feeks staled, and sales alone speak that, despite what the very vocal minority of "Zelda Fans" say, if TP and WW would release on Switch now, they would barely do better than their Wii U counterparts. Zelda has found a new audience, and now it's even on the level of the main Mario games, in terms of sales and success. Edit: The dungeons in TotK are awesome, closer to the "classic" style, but there's no need to go back to a "traditional" dungeon.

[@sirmel11]

Lol

[@pikzel08]

What makes you think TP and WW would sell less on Switch than on the Wii U? If anything, Skyward Sword proved the opposite, it actually sold more on the Switch than on the Wii, despite the negativity on social media regarding its price point and the fact it still is a very divisive game among Zelda fans. This is more impressive when you consider that releases/remasters usually sold less than the original release. And I don't agree with you at all on dungeons in ToTK, and I'm saying that as someone whose first zelda game was BotW. The utter insistence on "player freedom" means that dungeons in BotW/TotK lacked the feeling of mystery and of slowly unravelling the layout that older Zelda games had, since every corner of dungeons (save for the boss room) is accessible from the beginning. They felt like 4/5 shrines stuck together, with TotK's Water Temple being the worst offender.

[@eduardopazhurtado3882]

@@pikzel08 you forgot yo mention Link's Awakening, that sold very well, but you could argue that it was because of a hunger for more Zelda games, after BotW, and Skyward Sword doing better than the Wii, clearly showcased that game is among the best. But, sum it all, including the sales of WW and TP as they are, and they're not even half of the sales of BotW and TotK combined. Those two games got rereleased twice, and did less than when they were originally released. The case of TP is worse, since it was released alongside the Wii, that sold like hotcakes, but few people picked TP, and that was supposedly the most awaited game of its time, it should have sold more, but it didn't. Old Zelda was not bringing a new audience to keep the franchise alive, BotW and TotK did bring a new audience, that will buy the games. They're a company, they need to make money, period. And, the Water Temple in TotK is INCREDIBLE! The whole built up to it is just fantastic. And the fact that the temples have that freedom of roaming added to them, makes much more fun going through them, instead of the old "go from A to B" formula, that feels stale and boring now.

[@madnessarcade7447]

Nintendo haters always say Nintendo games are always nostalgic cash grabs so to hear u say they don’t care about nostalgia is pretty funny 😂

[@Usagi2380]

I prefer the open world Zelda games I like to play the game how ever I want

[@sirmel11]

I don't want huge Zelda games until the end of time. They get boring. Some people lost interest by the second game, not everyone is highly praising it.

[@radiorah768]

Sales are not an indicator of quality. Sales are tangible evidence that a product is resonating with an audience but merit and audience engagement are two different things. The two shouldn’t be conflated. With that said, Nintendo has always been a wildcard company in the console space. Sales of the Zelda franchise have always been up and down since OOT. Nintendo console sales have also always been up and down so it’s hard to prove that going open-world was the lone trigger to it performing better. BOTW/TOTK’s advertising campaign has been the strongest in the series to date + the Nintendo Switch is the 2nd highest selling Nintendo console of all time. All first-party releases are generally going to perform better than previous generations just for simply releasing on the Switch. For example, Kirby and the Forgotten Land, Metroid Dread, and Pikmin 4 are the most successful games in their respectful series to date. It’s only natural, the mainline Zelda series would follow a similar trend no matter what form it took. If Nintendo released a new F-Zero or Donkey Kong for Switch, it will also likely have a similar trajectory. Any game titled “The Legend of Zelda” will automatically be compared to its previous entries. That’s just how years of established branding works. Sales should never be an argument from a consumer standpoint to justify the merit of a thing. Sales are for the suits, not for you and I. The quality of the product we receive for our money should be the only concern and if the criticism is well-founded (and it is), thats a more authentic method of evaluating the status of a franchise. Baldur's Gate 3 couldn't have been GOTY by "trying new things" to the point to where it's unrecognizable. It's not what people go to a series for. People want creativity and innovation through the merits of game design that made Zelda special and fun to play. More player freedom by definition means there’s less game design because the designers are relinquishing their role in curating the experience to the player. It only makes sense at this point to take some of the intricate purposeful design of the traditional games such as key-item progression, dungeons, story-telling, etc. and combine it with the open-world like many are calling for. Lower the scope if they must but it’s about striking that perfect balance between freedom, structure, and reward systems. Games like Elden Ring, Tunic, and Hollow Knight did this exceptionally well.

[@AREAlhero]

Game designer of a decade here, "more player freedom by definition means there's less game design" is incorrect in every single way. The opposite is quite literally true, you need to design your game more to accomplish player freedom. This is extremely simple to prove; a player cannot in any way create an interaction where this none. Every interaction on the players side has code behind it driving it. If the code isn't there, the game ends. Thus every interaction is accounted for by the developer. A hypothetical game where only the developer's singular way to proceed is accounted for will thus have one designed interaction. But to account for every option a player could take, you have a multiplicative relationship between interactive elements. That's at the bare minimum, on a code level, before you even get into more macro design goals. At minimum, games with no player freedom have a linear amount of interactions and games with player freedom have a multiplicative relationship. Furthermore, you fail to properly evaluate many of the games you describe here as being "exceptionally well". Elden Ring, as an example, has a famously terrible reward system. Weaponry are so build-centric, with a ton of 'strictly better' relationships, that you have an even worse version of the BotW/TotK "weapon problem" that people cite.

[@radiorah768]

@@AREAlhero When it comes to intricate purposeful design, what i mean is being guided organically through the world structure and having reward systems tied to a form of progression. For example, if I obtain the hook shot, it should make me think about "Where can I use the hook shot?". I obtained the bombs -> where can I go to now? I received the arrows -> where can I go to now? Every item has a purpose and the world is structured around that. There’s this feeling of the world "opening up" as you progress. Dungeons were similar in a sense with small keys and the key-items you receive in the dungeon. That deliberate design is what open-air Zelda is missing. People should be allowed to be creative and go off the beaten path but there also should be a subtle guiding hand. Free design as they implement it comes with the inherent flaw of making things feel trivial - letting a player completely skip a puzzle just because the physics allow it is impressive on a technical level, but that doesn't mean it will remain fun forever. Since most of your tools are given to you at the beginning, it takes away the “game” part. The Metroidvania aspect these games use to have. Weapons aren’t your only reward in Elden Ring. There are many items in that game that serve a purpose and impact the world around you. You’re also able to change your build at anytime after defeating one of the major bosses.

[@AREAlhero]

@@radiorah768 Again, just blatantly incorrect. First off, "intricate purposeful design" is not a real, tangible thing like you claim. This is because all design is intricate and purposeful. In BotW/TotK you are still being guided through the world organically. In fact, the same progression you crave is still available in TotK; as you still do get permanent rewards for clearing dungeons that themselves are the keys to certain puzzles. The "opening up" you describe literally happens in both BotW and TotK just all at once; after you clear the tutorial that is then when the world opens up. Just because it happens at a different point, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And again, there is literally the same guiding hand approach being done in BotW and TotK that nudge players to find the routes the devs still wanted them to encounter. Just because you didn't notice you weren't being guided doesn't mean you were not guided. You analyze the effectiveness of a reward system by analyzing every reward. Yes Elden Ring has some better rewards occasionally, but overall the reward system is fundamentally the weakest part of the whole package. Your design analysis skills are lacking, and none of what you have proposed holds any validity

[@kanohu8983]

Something I always thought would be interesting is.. a Zelda game set in a time and setting like ours. But that won’t happen 😔

[@windfish1986]

How are dungeons "not" back in TotK? I feel like it goes down to nostalgia bias when we say that. Like they could've literally just copy pasted OoT's spirit temple in there and it would still "not feel like a Zelda dungeon" somehow.

[@tbishop3342]

The consensus seems to be the new dungeons are shorter and less complex than how they traditionally have been designed. Are there dungeons in TotK that you thought were as well made as in OoT? I haven't played the dungeons in TotK yet but BotW had some relatively simple dungeons with not a lot of variety or difficulty.

[@sirmel11]

His answer very much came off as he think he's right and people asking for the older games are wrong. I don't get the obsession with open world. Not every game needs to be open and big. I don't want freedom. There's linear games for a reason still because they work.

[@athorem]

I think Nintendo is taking their legacy Zelda fanbase for granted. Sure the old fanbase is small in comparison, but without them BotW wouldn't have sold as much as it did. Nintendo is alienating them when all they really need to do is throw them a bone. The risk of old fans losing their love for the franchise is more real than they may realize And on the topic of embracing change... Sure, embracing change is a great thing for real life, but we're talking about Nintendo products here right? There's no reason for someone to keep buying a thing that they don't want

[@RuuyG]

Honestly, I'm always baffled when I see how detached Nintendo devs are. Like, BOTW is the first Zelda I really loved, and I think it doesn't make business sense for Nintendo to go back to classic Zelda if It's done in a way that alienates the new, bigger fanbase, but even I can see how his comment about how "linear is just objectively worse if you still like it it's just nostalgia" are very ignorant. Especially coming from him who went through all of this journey since the 90s, that's really baffling. I understand that it must feel pretty disappointing for Mr. Aonuma to have this great financial success, but not the full recognition from classic fans, but I still think his comments are very questionable from a game design perspective.

[@NoonDragoon]

He never once said the comment you are quoting. He stated that he personally didn’t fully understand why players would want to go back to a more limited type of game but that he does understand nostalgia for those old era games is strong and it is valid to want games of that style because of nostalgia. Your comment is just another point in how internet discourse gets so detached and toxic because of bad faith actors. Aonumas fairly innocuous comments have been twisted and spit out over and over to the point that you now have comments like yours falsely quoting something that he never even said.

[@RuuyG]

@@NoonDragoon he said he doesn't understand why people want to go back to a formula where you have less freedom, and that he only understands the nostalgia aspect. That is saying open world is objectively better than linear in his mind, and that wanting the more limited classic Zelda is just clinging to nostalgia, he sees no value to it. I'm not falsely quoting at all, its paraphrasing. You're just not willing to see what he clearly meant and behaving like you're Drax.

[@NoonDragoon]

@@RuuyG if you can’t see that you are explicitly adding your own definition to what he said then it’s just not even worth talking to you. You added words like “only”, “objectively” and “no value” when none of those were ever used once in the interview. It’s also pretty arrogant to believe you understand what he meant when you were no where near him when he said these things and likely don’t even speak the language he speaks. Maybe instead of interpreting what he said you could just listen to (or read) what he actually said? I know, what a crazy concept. If you have to create artificial context or add your own definitions to a quote to get mad about it then you’re literally just another internet troll getting mad at something that no one said.

[@RuuyG]

@@NoonDragoon that is called interpretation. If you can't read more than the exact words you're seeing, you really are not ready for the world. I hope you're a minor. Your whole comments are ridiculous, this IS what he said, you're just nitpicking and discussing semantics minutiae.

[@DanielMonteiro87]

That make up makes Krysta look like a John Wick movie character.

[@sirmel11]

I understand you used to work for Nintendo and have respect for the people you worked with. The game sold well, so what? People have complaints. Sells aren't everything and it seems like Nintendo doesn't care about all complaints. People want a more linear experience with a more focused story and actual dungeons.

[@linkheroofwinds]

Sales reflect what people want. Like they say in the video, this is mainly the core fans who are complaining while the new style is attracting millions of new fans. I’m a fan of the older style more too, but going this direction is better for the health of the series and it will continue to evolve

[@sirmel11]

@@linkheroofwinds Sales also reflect what was marketed well. Cyberpunk sold well. Seems like people didn't want that. I don't like his smug answer being defended. If Nintendo was a smaller company, I feel like complaints would be taken more seriously. If this is just a new type of Zelda game, that's awesome. But if this is only what the 3D titles will be, that's depressing.

[@RagnelFox]

Yeah labels can be annoying sometimes but also why care about what other people think, losing face? Come one now 😅

[@darrentg6]

I'm sorry, but hiding behind so-called "dwindling sales figures" to justify ditching the Zelda formula just doesn't fly. Twilight Princess was THE Zelda formula to a tee and it sold great comparatively overall. Skyward Sword changed the formula and controls & suffered for it even though it was good. But that is no justification to condescendingly brush off the preferences of longtime Zelda fans, Nintendo has the $ to do a regular 3D Zelda every 5 years along with an open-world one. Aonuma is being a douche and needs to retire.

[@sirmel11]

I wouldn't call myself a gamer. I don't do that. I say I play video games. I think saying "gamer" sounds nerdy.

[@MagillanicaLouM]

I would say the current direction isn't even bringing in new Zelda fans. Many who started with botw it totk have been loud about how they really have no interest in the series at large. They just wanna play an open world game with a pretty anime elf boy as the main character. And with so many older fans feeling alienated since 2017 and even moreso after these interviews, not sure how this'll really be long term beneficial going forward but we'll see. Edit: well YOU GUYS will see i should say. Like you said, writings on the wall, series is changing but I'm not obligated to just sit down and consume. I've accepted I had to part ways with 3d Zelda unless it's a port or something already.

[@Shinjiduo]

But that is Nintendo's goal: to bring in people who had no interest in Zelda before. Fact is when you change anything you are going to lose long time fans however, literally in this case if you bring in 4 to 5 new fans how can you expect Nintendo to throw them away for you? Their "filthy casual" money is just as good as yours.

[@mrshmuga9]

@@Shinjiduo I'm not surprised by Nintendo's choices, but it's also unwise to say "casual money is just as good as yours". It's very short-term thinking. wherever

[@Shinjiduo]

@@mrshmuga9 You have to get fans onboard before you can retain them long term. That is the ultimate in long term thinking.

[@MagillanicaLouM]

@@Shinjiduo but again many aren't fans. They're just passing by to follow hype or are only invested in this specific iteration of Hyrule which it sounds like the dev team is planning to move on from. They aren't guaruntees to stick around either. I mean there are already folks that started with botw that are saying totk was a massive downgrade or disappointment in what they enjoy about this new formula. Yeah it broke sales records at launch but so did the newest Pokemon games but those aren't exactly shining examples of quality. Just looking at good sales figures and ignoring or in this case acknowledging but dismissing critiques of what was your most loyal consumer base I doubt will go over well in the long term. And hearing "well Nintendo doesn't care much for history or legacy in general anyway, but it's fine" isn't exactly an encouraging statement to a fan that does lol. That's just more reason to not have hope a series already going in a direction I don't care for will ever throw a bone my way in the forseeable future. Why should I sit around and just go "ah well, still Zelda have $70" when what I like about Zelda has pretty much been gutted and the devs and former employees of the company are telling me to expect to never see them again? They can chase newbies all they want, I can't stop em but I don't gotta support em.

[@Shinjiduo]

@@MagillanicaLouM Long and short... The long term Zelda Fan base is not big enough and fan / consumer growth was not forthcoming about a decade ago. I never said Nintendo will keep everyone whose attention they catch but if Nintendo was going to grow the Zelda fan base a wider net needed to be cast. If you think the Zelda development team is looking backwards for inspiration for the next title you have no idea how hungry Aonuma-San and Fujibayashi-San is to never see Zelda underperform on sales again like they did from continuously 1994 to 2017. You might of loved all those games but they were just a big niche product sales wise, Zelda is funded and supported like a tent pole franchise like Super Mario or Smash Bros. If not for the franchise being Miyamoto-San baby it would have been pushed out of the spotlight a long time ago. Also a lot of long term fans like the new formula, that group is not all in it together. Nintendo will not lose as many long term fans as you think they will. Fact is if you are not willing to lose some you cannot gain any. What is the term? "You can not make a omelet with breaking a few eggs."

[@alexisxg]

Talking not identifying as a gamer imagine how stupid would be saying “hello my name is …. And I’m a gamer” now think about hello my name is …. My pronouns are 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡

[@alexisxg]

Why soooo many people think they have this AMAZING idea for a game when is CLEARLY NOT!!! I don’t know why but apparently so many people think is easy to make a game that people really like and SELL!! Let me tell you IS NOT EASY!!!! That’s why people ask stupid auto Aonuma and that why Kit is reading someone idea to an Awful 2D game. Yes Kit and Krista won’t say it but I do!

[@thawhole9]

Man i love when k&k straight up dunk on the drove of nutbag nintendrones that effectively hate watch their podcast anymore (yes even the paying ones) when they can't wrap their brains around certain Nintendo news. Such a great episode, looking forward to more non-Nintendo content on here in 2024

[@AREAlhero]

Looking forward to seeing how your court case goes in 2024, your child deserves their safety and freedom from your abuse!