The Worst Dragon Ball Debates You’ll Ever See

[@dgriffin3113]

For the "Trunks is the most influential" argument. You could say Raditz is more influential, because all of Z happens. Without Raditz, Goku wouldn't find out he's a Saiyan, Goku wouldn't die and train with King Kai, The saiyans wouldn't show up, Piccolo wouldn't grow as a character, they wouldn't go to namek, Goku wouldn't go ssj, vegeta wouldn't become a better person, trunks wouldnt even exist, ect. Same could be said about Bulma but for everything in Dragon Ball onwards.

[@ImmaDBZvillan]

Instantly had the same thought

[@castform7]

Hell, I could shut down the argument in two simple questions. "Who built Trunks' time machine and who made the medication?" Trunks did neither. The only reason he had either was because of the actual most influential character. *Bulma*

[@shadowfan115]

For real let's not forget she's also the one who "tamed" Vegeta and was the whole catalyst for Goku even looking for the other 6 dragon balls at the beginning of dragon ball

[@anthomarti1105]

He doesn't even think about you know, had Goku lost most of their fights then the earth would of been destroyed, making the timeline a whole lot worse than even the future timeline, think about, had Goku not destroyed the red ribbon army, the earth is shit, had Goku not beaten Piccolo daimao, the earth is shit, had he not beaten Piccolo Jr, the earth is shit, Raditz, Nappa, Vegeta, Frieza (resurrection f), kid Buu, Beerus (even if he lost), Jiren. The only reason that he thinks Trunks is the most influential is because we get to SEE what would of happened had he not gone back in time, but guess what, had Goku lost even to original Piccolo daimao, guess what, the same would of had happened

[@rtrxjack]

what are we doing atp bardock is the most influential cuz he stood up to freiza nd had raditz nd goku lord knows alr about goku nd raditz is raditz

[@SuperSireBoyYT]

Tbf, in super 9/10 the way goku puts people in danger is an entirely unforseen consequence. How was he supposed to know one fight would turn zamasu into a genocidal maniac or that a random tournament would lead to universes dying?

[@Afreakinchicken-rq9fr]

More than that, goku helped cause without him telling The zenos they would have ereased every universe without any chance to bring them back

[@dominiquerobinson8888]

Zamasu aint Goku’s fault. The TOP isn’t but he was warned by Beerus that he shouldn’t mess with Zeno and did it anyway out of selfishness. It was just out of luck that it worked to their favor

[@arachno142]

@@dominiquerobinson8888I wouldn’t say luck. Hell zeno even said before the arc really got going that he thought there were still too many universes. And it’s not like beerus was clear as to why goku shouldn’t mess with Zeno. Considering how Zeno is kinder to goku than he is to every GoD, makes sense why goku wouldn’t see him as bad and scary as the others

[@dominiquerobinson8888]

@@arachno142 Goku absolutely knew it cause they came fresh off an arc where he erased the whole universe lol. It don’t matter if they knew exactly what he was planning, him and Whis already laid out how dangerous he could be and Goku ignored it. The tournament working in the universe’s favor was just luck. Goku unintentionally gave everyone a chance

[@Afreakinchicken-rq9fr]

@@dominiquerobinson8888 yes, but goku didn’t tell Zeno to erase all other universes that lost, so The ereasure Of the universes isn’t his fault

[@GuamGunderthol]

Honestly man the one that bothered me the most was the Ultra Ego debate. It’s almost like they both forgot about how after Vegeta lost to Granola, Vegeta literally said that he didn’t have the mindset that prevented him to use the form to his fullest. It highlights the character progression and affirms that Vegeta is aware of his change and feels how it hampered the fight.

[@Rose_Kxma]

Thank you for pointing it out😭

[@shotgunshogun4707]

People got bored of hating on the buu arc...so now we hating on cell?...lemme guess, next year we're calling super saiyan mid alongside the rest of the namek arc, right?...can't wait for the year where they say " rent a girlfriend is actually more influential than dragon ball 🤓☝️". Wallahi lemonade won't kill u. Make some.

[@GregSmithIII]

Niggas just be yappin with Dragon Ball

[@ucancallmekiy]

If it makes you feel better, even though I still love it, I always thought Cell was the weakest arc in Dragon Ball (obviously not counting GT or Super, just the original manga). I think the Boo arc and Cell arc just aren’t good at storytelling, and they kind of waste the characters they want to focus on. But between both, what makes me like the Boo arc more is the comedy. Cell doesn’t distract me with humor, so it gets the short end of the stick unfortunately. Also, hot take, the Cell Games part of the arc is somehow has the most misunderstood moments and is somehow still the worst part of the arc.

[@shotgunshogun4707]

@ucancallmekiy7578 u can like the buu arc, and i do too. That's completely fair, imo. But, cell arc does have good storytelling, it's cohesive and it flows well in the grand scheme of things, even the cell games cause it's a perfect representation for cell's character and personality specifically in his perfect form. People often confuse characters making in-universe mistakes with the writer making mistakes and poorly handling the story. The cell arc was showing something consistent all throughout and that is the fact that all these people are not perfect especially (but not limited to) goku and vegeta which is ironic cause these very same imperfect people are going against a lifeform that seeks perfection. The mistakes they all made are written into the story intentionally by toriyama to showcase their flaws, and in most if not all cases where these characters have shown flaws, there were consequences. I struggle to see how that could be considered bad writing, but people (I'm not referring to u here btw) get so hellbent on applying real-life human logic to these scenarios even tho it doesn't make sense to do so and thus reduce toriyama's writing in the cell arc to "everyone is trolling". No, they were simply being people...acting on emotion and their own desires and believes, aka being imperfect... just like toriyama intended for them to be when facing the so-called "perfect" lifeform. Once again it's fair to love buu more or any other arc more, but I don't think it's fair to retroactively ignore all the good in the cell saga and then presenting the arc as poorly written. It's not perfect, but it was never meant to be... none of the dragon ball was ever meant to be.

[@markmeeky2651]

@@shotgunshogun4707 Nah that's cope, there are few mistakes (writer makers) that are made in the manga. Trunks specifically calls the initial Androids numbers 19 and 20 . Only reason it was changed was due to editor's comments. That is just a blatant writer mistake. 19 and 20 were supposed to be the original villains and it's pretty widely known. Another one is Cell saying that in his time, Trunks killed Frieza which isn't true, It was Goku. To make it clear, the Cell that steals Trunks' time machine, Goku is the one who defeats the mecha Frieza in that timeline. That isn't a in universe mistake, that is just straight up writer error. I mean it's understand to have plot holes in a story sometime, especially with how Toriyama writes, but to say those mistakes are intentional is the biggest cope I've ever heard. BTW, not hating on the Cell Saga, it's my favourite Saga despite the obvious plot holes, but to say these are only character mistakes is wrong. It has a ton more mistakes but what makes it interesting is it has high highs. In terms of actual writing consistency, it's not the best but entertainment and story wise, I'd say it's one of the best.

[@ucancallmekiy]

@@shotgunshogun4707 Honestly, the characters making things worse isn’t even my problem. I don’t blame Kuririn at all for destroying the switch. I actually like it as a parallel to how Goku stepped on the switch for Number 8. I like Cell as a villain for the most part, my major problems with the arc is how they waste a 3 year time skip, and then add a room that only makes sense if you don’t think about it, and then the entire Cell Games. I feel like Cell could’ve definitely been paced better if they didn’t just waste 3 years “training” with zero results. I would’ve had the 3 year skip happen after 17 and 18 beat everyone for the first time personally, because it’s crazy to me how y’all were training for 3 years and look exactly the same, but go in a magic room for 8 months to a year and you’ve eclipsed everyone else there. The Room of Spirit and Time (Hyperbolic Time Chamber) is so poorly used. Because the only reason why only 2 people can go in at a time is due to the room only having enough food for 2 people to last a whole year. This is the same world where you can fit a fully stocked house with food in the palm of your hand. Why couldn’t all 4 of them just go in at the same time if they were in such a hurry? Just bring capsules! They could’ve easily just have actually took advantage of their actual time skip, but it’s cool. Now my main problem is Perfect Cell, the most interesting and terrifying antagonist yet becoming a diet Piccolo with Vegeta’s ego. The only reason why Perfect Cell fights is to prove he’s the best, that’s a Vegeta parallel, not Goku. And then he starts to panic and get desperate when he’s losing, just like Freeza and Cold. He’s literally a diet version of better villains. And then we have Gohan, who literally gets put up to fight Cell with no other contribution to the story. The characters literally force Gohan out of the story until the very last minute, so this really doesn’t feel like Gohan earned this moment. Like, of course we knew that Gohan has this hidden power inside of him, and it’s at least satisfying to see it unlocked. But what does it resolve for Gohan as a character? He’s more of a tool than an actual character that goes through an arc, and that’s upsetting to someone who had Gohan as his favorite character growing up. He was my favorite in the Saiyan and Freeza sagas, and then he does nothing and is used to beat the bad guy at the very end. The only part of the Cell Games that I actually like is everything past Goku’s sacrifice. I also appreciate the most misunderstood moment in all of Dragon Ball easy, Goku giving Cell the senzu. That moment saved literally all of their lives and people don’t understand the context behind the moment, probably because they haven’t rewatched or read through Dragon Ball. The rest of the arc before the Cell Games has small problems but is overall pretty enjoyable! I still love it, but it’s currently my least favorite arc in the original manga.

[@Absolute_Crimson]

11:34 Bro said Goku was Putting his own universe in danger like Zeno wasn't Going to destroy the Universes until Goku reminded them of the Tournament (That Zeno brought up to begin with) giving at least one universe a chance to survive. Cmon bro even one the supreme kais stated they should be thanking Goku 💀

[@TrippyGhxst]

People make it seem that Bergamo saying to not have a tournament if he wins in the exhibition as if xeno wouldn't take it as, "don't hold a tournament just wipe us out as you wish"

[@AvidCS]

@@TrippyGhxstplus Goku learned of the universe wiping after the fact

[@Ichigo115]

Gt goku still better super goku doesn’t even know what meditation is he’s a joke.

[@samuelbradley3369]

@@Ichigo115 who cares? They both kinda suck

[@Ichigo115]

​@@samuelbradley3369 sure!

[@SavantPete]

People just hate the Cell arc now? WTF?

[@Zeff0]

Right, insane 😂

[@LilKingKeith]

Still my favorite saga ten toes down

[@ac2raw]

Madness

[@ClassicallyChristion]

It’s a great/elite arc my only issue with it is that cell despite being a solid villain is my least favorite of the main Z antagonists

[@Tre-g8o]

@@ClassicallyChristionits opinion based though because he might still be my favorite villain

[@dheersharma1756]

Bulma is most influential character

[@GregSmithIII]

2nd most

[@Cyborg_Ninja_13]

Nah she is the most influential. Raditz is 2nd​@@GregSmithIII

[@dheersharma1756]

​@@Cyborg_Ninja_13fr

[@markmeeky2651]

Don't see it, Goku for sure is.

[@dheersharma1756]

@@markmeeky2651 go see video about why bulma is most influential character that why u would understand easily

[@kirkfretty4860]

Trunks wasn’t even the most influential in his own introduction arc.

[@christiancinnabars1402]

In terms of clout, Goku has him beat, period. In terms of effect on the story during the Cell Saga, Bulma made the Heart Virus antidote. In terms of proactivity, Vegeta ran in headfirst at the villains multiple times and forced the plot to happen. In terms of potential, most eyes were on Gohan the moment he entered the Time Chamber. Trunks was the most influential character in the Trunks vs Frieza/King Cold fight. Then Goku stole his influence back the _moment_ he blocked the sword with his finger.

[@josesanchez-rr6rn]

😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅😅 ..,.​@@christiancinnabars1402

[@xXPKRJXx]

Been here since the 2020 Clippers rant. Mans growth and journey been crazy. love to see it. keep pushing bro 🙌🏾💪🏾

[@Smug_K]

I say Goku is the most influential because without Goku saving Vegeta Trunks wouldn’t exist

[@xtackett3728]

Without goku there’s literally no dragon ball lol

[@Mohamed-dx5yl]

​@@xtackett3728 Dont forget Raditz

[@Louis_Guiabern]

And Bulma too, no Time Machine for trunks to go back in without Bulma

[@ChaddyFantome]

Bulma. Respect my girl!

[@Echo-nn8dt]

"I'd argue Bardock is the most influential because it was from his sack that Goku was given"

[@boojaliciousiii3797]

5 good Tien moments in no particular order: 1. His introduction. Him and Chaitzou essentially being swindlers and in league with the monster that was terrorizing various villages that they "saved" was solid. 2. His fight with Roshi in the 22nd BT and the start of his arc to good guy 3. His fight with Goku in the 22nd BT, winning said tournament. 4. His fight with Cyborg Tao and finally turning away from the crane school 5.His fight with Goku post growth spurt 6. Turning triangles into squares vs Cell

[@bryankennedy3719]

Forgot the Buu arc

[@Wintercide]

Tien grows TWO, whole ass, arms out of his back to give Goku more hands than he's ever caught before. Why he doesn't use that at any other point the world may never know, RIP Toriyama sensei. Tien deserved some role in super, more than "oh I'm busy with my school I can't."

[@dbza4107]

The first argument was idiotic at best, bulma is the only reason goku survived the heart virus in the present and made the machine no matter what yall wanna say that and making the db radar has saved them on multiple occasions

[@astrocade9541]

Definitely Bulma

[@Warlord-dc5un]

Exactly like his argument was so flimsy and only relied on ignoring the fact Trunks was just a delivery boy. Goku was already explicitly told to be the most important factor in turning the tides against the androids hence going back in time in the first place. Goku is more influential in the arc because he was the one to even find the solution to beat the androids not Trunks. Bulma we already know was responsible for time travel. Trunks would've died before going to the past if it weren't for Gohan, Gohan was the solution to beating the androids. 3 characters that were more influential in the arc

[@02CH4SE]

Na I think Jesus is the most influential in dragon ball if he didn’t make beerus frieza woulda never blew up planet vegeta and goku woulda been raised a normal low class warrior

[@SSJRadioBluth]

The Trunks argument is close but it's the wrong family member. IT'S BULMA. Bulma literally kicks it off. Goku just tags along on her journey. She's searching for the Dragon Balls. She decides to go to Namek. She unites everybody against The Red Ribbon Army. SHE DISCOVERS TIME FUCKING TRAVEL. That's her whole ass plan. Bulma befriends Whis pays for everything. And gives Earth a literal second chance. Bulma gets no respect. She's been around since Day 1 and is a literal hero to EVERY SINGLE OTHER CHARACTER. Name a non god character Bulma saved their life. Especially in the Super timeline. BULMA THE GOAT of Universe 7.

[@bihn]

I lost it when that one guy went from arguing about Goku's character writing, to arguing about the art-style having more aura🤣

[@Kevinmentell098]

I really wish I was there to debate hot takes. Some of these hot takes I would loved to debate them. Especially the Super Goku and GT Goku argument.

[@daredarrow6704]

Yikes... That one argument was a Dragonball fan vs a Dragonball Z fan. And the Z fan didnt even watch OG. And the take that cell saga wasnt top 5 was a losing battle for the Z fan because he couldnt rebute 3 of the top 5 list of the other guy.

[@icecreamisfood]

Great point, when he said 21st and 22nd tournament sagas were better, i thought that was a good opportunity for the other guy to attack that point, but he can't do that if he didn't watch og db.

[@dominiquerobinson8888]

That trunks argument was immediately lost just off the fact that Trunks has 0 direct or indirect influence on what happens before the android arc, of Dragonball arc, or events that sent Goku to earth

[@xthatghomiex2939]

How do these people choose the weakest possible statements to defend their arguments?? 'Super looks more cartoony so GT Goku is a better character' Tf??

[@GeorgeWashingtonToad]

11:28 saying this when arguing GT Goku is better than super Goku is wild because GT Goku is a dumbass in battle meanwhile Super Goku kept his battle iq

[@didistone8482]

23:35 I call cap. Vegeta did try to reason with Granolah even as they fought

[@24trn27]

Literally almost the entire fight he’s trying to sway him to stop doing his Fuckery😂 it’s only until granola is about to kill himself and Vegeta when he realizes they’ve been duped😭🤦🏾‍♂️ For fucks sake, he literally tells him he’s doing this for no reason because whatever sins the old saiyans did. Didn’t even matter. this is especially true. When granola finds out that Bardock is the one who saved him and his mom.😂😂😂

[@joshawnthabeast]

This is a prime example of db fans can’t read

[@thatrandomguy5774]

Bulma is literally the whole reason... Dragon Ball went down the path it did, all because she found a little country bumpkin living in the mountains. 😂😂😂

[@Aziruf]

Please more debate videos these are hilarious

[@paradoxtheruler7596]

People Really out here trying to dis The Drink Bro

[@Warlord-dc5un]

I'm sorry but Trunks was as influential as merely a delivery boy, he didn't make the time machine nor the antidote to save Goku. He wasn't the main factor in saving everyone from the android threat because that was Goku hence the entire reason Trunks went back in time because Bulma very much knew Goku could've found a way to turn the tides. He would've died before even going to the past if it weren't for Gohan. The androids exist because Goku, Trunks killing Frieza and King Cold is a none factor because Goku would've done it to begin with whether Trunks stepped in or not. All Trunks did there was flexing unnecessarily. Trunks became a background character very quickly in his own arc.

[@bluestripmatty4906]

ultra ego being a character assassination for Vegeta is a hot take. I didn’t know I needed to hear and I don’t know if I agree with it or disagree with it yet.

[@Codezer0xshinzu]

Trunks was born because goku showed vegeta mercy and compassion thus changing him and furthermore marrying bulma the lil tot didn't even ask vegeta or anyone else for help he went straight to goku multiple times I might add goku is the most influential character in DragonBall history no debate the reason the androids ruined shit was because of goku. The good/Bad things happend in proxy was because of goku what I would argue is trunks represents more humanity than goku judging by his tragic backstory but that's about it and it only makes since trunks is part human an isn't a battle hungry saiyan even tho goku is kind hearted

[@Yakonsupremacy]

I highkey agree with vegeta regressioning, i never really thought about it like that

[@blueduderbest2369]

Thanks 😂

[@justasimplemanworkinghiswa1569]

Hot take: Goku's character development is better than Vegeta's

[@hueyfreeman9094]

That's a flaming take, that's more than just hot, it's melting lol

[@Yakonsupremacy]

I’d say goku is overall better written, but i wouldnt say he has better development, goku changes, but not to such an extent as vegeta

[@theeblackroyal]

Bro tryna be different so bad

[@nivnavion]

@@Yakonsupremacy But more development does not equal better development. Goku's development is more subtle, and has ties to buddhist-taoist philosophical beliefs and the metaphysical ego. It's not spoonfed to viewers the same way it is with Vegeta's where it as good as tells you openly "he used to be bad guy, now he is good guy," of course Vegeta's development has depth and complexity, but Goku's is on par.

[@nivnavion]

@@hueyfreeman9094 It's not even that hot, I am pretty sure Sage believes it too.

[@shadowfan115]

Actually I would argue Bulma is the most influential as she is the whole reason why Goku even started looking for the dragon balls in the first place and the fact like you said she's the one who made the time machine she's the one who got the gang to Namek she's the one who made Goku's heart meds she's the one who befriended Beerus and Whis and she's the one who tamed Vegeta

[@Mohamed-dx5yl]

Then followed by raditz

[@ProJohnson]

Im at 23:45 and im like.... did they read the manga and watch the show?? Vegeta was stated to be good in the buu arc, and in the granola arc, vegeta ligit tells him the truth and granola dosent care, so what are they talking about???

[@ProJohnson]

25:25 nothing to protect and nothing to care about means this arc's stakes not in general

[@24trn27]

Yeah, they definitely didn’t read it. Because that entire fight, Vegeta is trying to sway him into stopping it really gets to a point where granola just stops, listening and wants to kill himself and Vegeta just for revenge😭😭😭 for fucks sake he had to beg Goku to not interfere and it took Monaito revealing that Bardock was the one who saved granola and his mother😂

[@ProJohnson]

@@24trn27 you know about dragon ball fans...

[@childishsloth4164]

Wasn’t ultra ego regressing vegeta’s character the point?….. beerus states the saiyans old destructive past was key to understand and use the destruction technique. The reason why vegeta never won a fight while in ultra ego is bc he can’t go back to the planet conquering mass murderer he was before.

[@lookatcurryman5974]

Exactly

[@kaienglish271]

Nahhh regression was never the point. Beerus said the past of the saiyans has nothing to do with Vegeta and he shouldn’t feel doubtful. Beerus told Vegeta to create a new version of himself but all Vegeta did was try be his old self.

[@thegreatacky7983]

It was more of reinventing himself like he had to do in the Buu Arc, which fits his character 100%. His ego is what drives him majority of the time

[@24trn27]

Not exactly because during this entire ark was him trying to let go of who he used to be in the past while also still maintaining that edge that he has while fighting. The only reason you see it that way because granola was crashing out the entire time. He wasn’t even trying to hear Vegeta out. It was kill or be killed especially towards the end of the fight when granola was willing to kill both himself and Vegeta

[@mythosinfinite6736]

Istg people think character development is a straight line. It's never like that in real life. Sage said it best with the "WWE promo" stuff, the first time the only character who narrates his own progression gets some kinda nuance, everyone freaks out.

[@lordares7658]

You just have bad debaters. 😂 that's all I see about this.

[@GregSmithIII]

F Tier debaters fr lol

[@TSO_Sage]

chill 😂😂

[@loganm7812]

ngl I should have done better

[@Spiderpro2024]

@@TSO_SageYo sage I don’t know if you have seen my take yet but it is zamasu is stupid. He killed gowasu, which means the destroyer of uni 10 is dead. He could have done the zero mortal plan in uni 10 since no one can challenge him.

[@blueduderbest2369]

I’m coming back stronger next time

[@milesjay2115]

hot take: if GT was redone and slightly revised in 2024, it would come close to super, no cap

[@Crazyhead432]

Ultra ego isn’t regression it’s a reintroduction. His redemption arc has been finished. It’s time to get back to roots

[@arachno142]

While I do think the cell saga is a too 5 arc, one criticism I have with it is with Gohan. For being the “Hero of the arc” and having such a story defining moment, gohan does virtually nothing the entire arc until the Room of spirit and time. And not again till he actually fight cell. That’s where his build up in this arc started. And that’s 3/4s of the way thru the arc by that point. Gohan is really just in the background most of that arc till they leave the time chamber

[@icecreamisfood]

I really enjoyed the build-up of the Cell Saga, especially Goku's new approach to training. Focusing on mental clarity, efficiency, and control by mastering Super Saiyan as a base form. It felt like a refreshing shift from the usual 'get-angrier-to-get-stronger' trope. But then, when Goku coerced Gohan into tapping into his power specifically by getting mad to beat Cell, it felt like Toriyama completely dropped the ball. Instead of continuing the theme of calm mastery of power, we reverted back to rage = power, which contradicts Goku’s earlier strategy. It’s hard to watch Gohan struggle emotionally during that fight and not feel like his victory was more about trauma than maturity. Definitely felt like a missed opportunity. Gohan could’ve been shown as a true hero by embracing emotional control rather than losing it.

[@ashu6305]

"Having a dying character matter"😂😂😂

[@Thatskashhfr]

I’m sick, Gt Goku over Super Goku? And his reasoning is, he risks his family? As if he hasn’t been doing that since the beginning of Z? You ask me? Goku hasn’t changed much, maybe a lil more mature sure, but personality wise? Nah! He still loves and fights for his family! I can’t approve of that message from bro!

[@Thatskashhfr]

Bro ONLY watched GT 😂

[@tajharris8355]

I’m so mad I had my one hot take ready for a whole month and the one stream I miss is the dragon ball hot takes

[@michaelfr6290]

I really dislike these domino effect arguments when discussing who’s the most influential

[@sleepy5120]

Love how the argument for the cell saga was great was just imma say some shit and have you correct me on it so you can’t argue your point

[@Kaizengo-x5h]

15:42 bro did the ishowspeed meme 💀

[@marshallseldon4200]

Been watching TFS reviews on GT and some things they mention about gt goku is: 1. feels like he's there just to beat the main bad guy and that's it 2. had numerous instances where they straight up forget abilities to get them out of a situation (like flying). 3. spends way too much time not going super saiyan to finished the fight and then go though certain fights being in based form.

[@avariciousgaming1695]

There's sections of GT where it focuses more on a being an comedic adventure story than an action one and TFS didn't appreciate those parts if I remember their review correctly. In the moments it becomes more action oriented and serious like Z, he's quick to transform. "Just there to beat the bad guy" feels disingenuous tbh.

[@donnataescoffin9988]

As far as Super 17 is concerned, it could be argued that he had to see the limits of his absorption technique. He was able to overload Yakon with his ki in the buu Saga

[@rae5057]

Bruh put me in one of these, im cookin any of those bums

[@KaioKeigan]

Bulma is easily the most influential. - met goku and kickstarted the serious -created the dragon radar - created a Time Machine - birthed trunks -tamed Vegeta - created the heart virus medicine -replicated the saiyan armor - helped the Z fighters travel to namek and so much more Bulma may not be a fighter, but her contribution to the story should never go unnoticed.

[@SwagIta1019]

how is bulma not the most influential character the entire series wouldn't have started without her

[@ninetails412]

Unpopular opinion future trunks is what shifted vegeta even more to the good side .him seeing pride in his son power level .and attacking cell out of anger when cell hurt trunks

[@Thatskashhfr]

The trunks argument is more so, about impact and not influence I’d say! Influence is more so geared towards the audience

[@BobbyMoore2-mp8wb]

I love ❤️ the Cell Games saga

[@loganm7812]

sorry I failed to defend it

[@xthatghomiex2939]

27:15 in the past, Vegeta didn't care if HIS OWN universe's saiyans were gone,. Saying 'of course he cares about Cabba, he's a saiyan' is invalid because him caring about anything besides himself is progression, not implicit.

[@blueduderbest2369]

I agree but I’m biased because I was the one that said the point

[@genxvictor1805]

"Super goku is better than gt goku" guy could have used a shoutout to Sage and use the goku promising to revive Freezer in his Hell for the TOP, but him not being able to be revived (unless i'm misremembering the dragon balls)

[@edgysnarfbrownie5778]

Ultra ego is a regression in my opinion, but only for Vegeta as a fighter. Vegeta slowly started becoming a more tactical fighter throughout the series since he learned to read energy in the Namek saga, but ultra ego encourages sloppy fighting and tactics.

[@TG_551]

I think time chamber made more sense then a grand namekian giving boosts to krillin and gohan and the power creep

[@jordanleon4881]

I have a hot take. Outta of all the arcs from every dragon ball show. The tournament of power has the best moments in the anime and the manga. Hands down!

[@didistone8482]

17:30 Thank youuu. Super Goku isn't done developing as a character!!

[@grantjames7504]

Nxt debate I’m getting in cuz these bois just fold arguements I can debate wit the best of em topic don’t really matter what’s the link for the discord it’s sayin it’s expired btw

[@Y_O_U_N_G_T_G_1]

Post the next stream where you’re gonna have db hottake debates cuz promise I got a heater on me😮‍💨

[@gpwinner2551]

Why can't anybody see it. Frieza is the MOST influential character in the DB verse. Without Frieza, Bardok doesn't send Goku to Earth. Without Frieza, Vegeta isn't a bad guy. Without Frieza Planet Vegeta and Sayan women stay around. Without Frieza, Vegeta wouldn't want the dragon balls. Without Frieza, Goku wouldn't have fought for Vegeta on Namik. Like it or not, Frieza shaped the show you know and love. There is no Trunks, Cell or Piccolo Jr without Frieza.

[@carlosmojica-escobedo6731]

So um actually grand zeno is the most influential character 🤓, no I'm kidding (well not technically) but yeah Frieza is actually a great point and I didn't even think about that (my first thought was Bulma cause she literally started Dragonballs story)

[@Mohamed-dx5yl]

​@carlosmojica-escobedo You could also argue raditz

[@lynchiestlynch5442]

Vegeta would still be a bad guy, saiyans were still violent, ruthless world conquerors before King Cold took their planet.

[@amari648]

@@Mohamed-dx5ylbut Frieza sent Vegeta, Nappa and Raditz to earth so he could blow up Planet Vegeta without the em knowing so it can’t be Raditz.

[@jaydenbroussard5084]

​@@amari648 Raditz went to earth of his own choice.....also WAY after Frieza blew up their planet.

[@Nousername0]

With the gt vs super goku debate, I think bro was tryna say gt goku is more like a grown ass man and super goku is more immature and childish.

[@h4ce.]

i think arale is the most influential character cuz dragon ball wouldnt exist without dr slump

[@hvmblx]

To the gt goku being better than super goku i agree to an extent, not only is gokus character not shattered and almodt changed. Also what i dislike about super at this point is transformations are achieved to often i feel. Ssj4 had so much impactul thibgs attached to the form and in gt there arent so many unnecessary transformations In super its just who gets a diferent hair color during this arc, and never how do we plan to stop the next threat, now dont get me wrong i enjoy the transformations in super to an extent (blueevo, and rage trash as hell) but i feel its getting to the point where things cant even be scaled properly. Dbs has not only ruined character but added way to many forms, i miss the days when forms had such a significance and it meant something there was impact behind it and now its just a quick power up in the moment and it can rarely be scaled properly for example we cant even accurately say how much stronger ssg is to ssb or ui, to mui to pui to tui. We cant even properly measure the scales of anything (although my argument isnt entirely based on the scales their power but rather new transformations being earned to easily and how it rarely holds any impact to the viewers, it is another example of how ridiculous this has really become). I feel that as goofy as gt arcs were (ofc excluding the amazing baby arc), ssj4 at the very least means something and it has what i see as a fair means to earn a transformation. Thank you for reading this and ill explain further if you have any questions fir me

[@BucketWasTakenTwice]

this reads more of a cretic of super vs gt rather than comparing the too gokus, but i still agree to a point. super did give us too many forms with such little time to build up to them or let other forms breath but thans in retrospect. currently i say super still has the better froms soley because of ui and ssjg and becuse gt really only has ssj4. ssj4 is overall nice but the power boost is consistent with any sayian from form before ( exception of ssj3) after the transformation theres not really much of a gimick with the form that stands out to me other than surface level looks or lore. i think ssjg and ui can compete or exceed regarding lore and gimicks. plus every ui fight has been a banger so theres my bias showing :)

[@eranshachar9954]

I wanna say about the question between Namek and Cell sagas, for me personally I am team Namek all day. For a start I felt interest in Freeza and why he is doing it, the whole arc was filled with action. You could cut the tension in the air with a knife. Cell didn't gave me the same vibes. I felt like Cell was just a big bully with no real brain.

[@Bakar1025]

If we gonna call Trunks the most influential because he started everything. Then the real most influential character is Bardock because he put Goku into his mother in the first place

[@ra-neter6662]

Lol, the rebuttals to the claim were equally stupid. Yall need to learn what influence means. How does trunks fading to the background mean hes not influencial?

[@48krabkakes]

1. Trunks isn't even in the top 5 of his arc let alone the entire DragonBall universe... 2. Goku caused the cell arc not Trunks... All Trunks did was progress the plot by giving the villian a reason for existing in the story at that point...

[@QuestxonDat]

Trunks can't be the most influential when Goku is the sole reason why dr.gero even makes the androids. Goku indirectly got trunks plot going.

[@KXA23]

4:36 it’s the same argument for bardock he sends his kid away from death and trunks does the same with the medicine

[@larrylobster9174]

The most influential character is gine she let bardock hit and she kept the child 💀

[@rubenbrito4166]

Cold take: the future timeline was underused and arguably more interesting than the main timeline

[@nickalas666]

😂😂😂no

[@jdcreator4477]

Hot take, but ultra ego should have been introduced in the tournament of power instead of Super Saiyan blue evolution. But, gives a huge strain to Vegeta since this is his first time tapping into this power and gets eliminated due to loss of stamina.

[@daredarrow6704]

With the Trunks argument... If you replace Trunks with Bulma you instantly get a stronger argument. His line of thinking even gives a character like Grandpa Gohan instant top tier influence in-verse as if he didn't take Goku in... Nothing in the dragon ball verse happens.

[@buchii8710]

impact on the verse and influence is 2 different things. if it was impact on the verse then yes trunks in terms of literal scale or changing universes/ if you count xeno trunks its just a wrap. but influence nah thats goku

[@pr1nctine]

Super vs GT goku coleslaw vs potato salad

[@Telarius]

Yo the disc link is expired

[@YungShaun170]

Most influential is MR SATAN ; let’s really, really talk about it

[@mrhopadopalus]

I will never understand why you guys get on trying to argue your point, but will admit defeat on every point you perceive yourself losing. FIGHT BACK!! or just ignore those points and talk about yhe ones you can counter

[@MegaMachiOnline]

GT Goku promised to visit Pan, but doesn't recognize her at all in those 5 years, so I don't think we should be arguing how much he loves anyone

[@bladysante2903]

First of all, he turns into a Kid so literally his whole world gets shrink and he has been training with Uub for a long time so when he sees than the little girl has grown up to the point she’s taller than him…yeah but fine if thats not enough he literally protects and cares for Pan the whole entire anime. He destroys Eis because he messed up Pan

[@MegaMachiOnline]

@@bladysante2903 Goku made his promise as an adult and can sense ki. If people are gonna hold Super Goku accountable for not knowing a toddler, then I’m not letting that slide. But both Gokus ultimately would spin the block for a loved one getting harmed. The only difference was the foe they tried to beat down

[@Giji01]

49:55 Trunks changed the timeline. Regardless of what happened in the future, Trunks was a kid and wouldn't know of everything that went down. Maybe those androids would be taken down. The sole reason there's more androids is a consequence of time travel

[@Sb1frosty]

How can I join the discord it says I need a invitation link

[@comradelade5524]

What was bro on about in the begining? Handful of people more influential than Trunks: Goku Bulma Grandpa Gohan Vegeta

[@burbusburbus8782]

For "ultra ego is regression", i feel like the guy is forgetting that, after the second round with granola, vegeta says that the "powers of destruction are not for a novice like me", he's literally saying "im not built for this", in his first use for it. Also, he DOES try to talk it out, and in fact, drops the BIGGEST evidence that they shouldn't be fighting, granola just doesnt accept it. Also, what i will say, is i think the granola arc itself sort of regresses vegeta a tiny bit, but ultra ego had nothing to do with it.

[@24trn27]

I would say, it didn’t regress him at all. he’s literally the same exact character. He was in the march the tournament of power, Goku black and resurrection of F. He just realizes his mistakes from the past more. Even the granola arc is evident of that. Old Vegeta would’ve tried to kill him frame one. But during the actual fight, he’s trying to sway granola into realizing that he is in the wrong, but granola is such a crash out that he wasn’t even trying to hear it. Which is why Vegeta begs Goku to let him fight him.

[@burbusburbus8782]

@@24trn27 I meant the regression where he's like, so adamant to fight granola, he just straight up hits Goku. With frieza in resurrection F, id argue it makes a bit more sense because Vegeta has personal beef with Frieza, but past that, if given the opportunity, Vegeta and Goku throwing hands together was never something he's upset about. Again, a *tiny* bit, because yeah he's always preferred it, but to straight up hit Goku because of it feels...idk, odd. But ultra ego, (as someone in the yt shorts pointed out), is a result of beerus teaching Vegeta to not be weighed down by the sins of the past, which Vegeta outright FAILS to do in the fight with granola, someone who's only fighting BECAUSE of the sins of the Saiyan's. Not character regression. If anything it's more like a "regression wall", where they're explicitly stating "no, Vegeta can't go back to being that guy"

[@24trn27]

@@burbusburbus8782 so that wouldn’t be a regression wall. That’s just a wall on his character that won’t ever come down. This is evident in the Moro saga when he starts taking responsibility for the murder of those on planet Namek. And the only reason he hit Goku while fighting granola was because he realizes that granola is crashing out and how Goku is trying to fight isn’t in line with what Vegeta was trying to achieve. he was trying to save that boy, but ultimately granola crashing out led to Vegeta being this relentless fight merchant because granola wasn’t listening to words. Even in that example you just gave Vegeta literally tells Goku almost begging him to not interfere vs Just beating the shit out of him.

[@burbusburbus8782]

@@24trn27 on the first part, I meant it as more of, not a wall of regression, but a wall that *prevented* regression. On the second, I understand the reasoning, and yes before the second fight, Vegeta begs Goku. The first time, it's all about "I'd rather die than team up with you." Which...i mean doesn't *not* line up, but considering the broly movie, where, Vegeta jumps in, to help, because Goku "clearly can't handle him on his (Goku's) own." Broly was strong and maybe you could argue it was for Bulma, but broly never showed any danger to the earth, just to Goku and at one point, Vegeta. Idk it feels a tiny bit inconsistent, but not to the point where im complaining, just noting

[@24trn27]

@@burbusburbus8782 yeah bro that’s just not inconsistent at all lol. You even mentioned resurrection of F where Vegeta fights Goku because they’re not taking it seriously that’s different from Vegeta telling Goku “please don’t interfere… I need to do this not just for myself, but for granola as well.” You’re forgetting the fact that Vegeta was trying to be his old self while also trying to be this newer version of himself and those two ideologies can’t coexist with each other based on who he is as a person and where he’s from

[@Kingzeeop]

Where can I catch this live

[@victorampo1137]

Most influential character in the series is Bulma

[@bleeptroop2779]

Yo how can I join the discord these discussions seem like fun

[@GregSmithIII]

2:22 How many times has the verse thanked Goku for opening their eyes or for them or shaping them into the people they are today? Or simply reminiscing about the things he's done for them. Trunks NEVER got any of that. Examples: Vegeta's speech during Goku's fight with Kid Buu Everyone remembering the great things Goku has done after Cell was defeated. Everyone talking about Goku's effect on people during the fight with Jiren in the TOP The countless time Goku's effect on people was mentioned by the Kais during the U6 tournament arc. Goku's charisma even reached the angels and the damn Omni King for crying out loud and the ENTIRE multiverse. Goku even had an impression on Beerus. Trunks was inspired by Goku his damn self. Zamasu only did what he did because he lost to Goku, Trunks jumping through time was just another excuse for Zamasu to use. Goku beating his ass in that sparring match is what set Zamasu off originally. These are just off the top of my head. That Trunks take was kinda glazing and I like Trunks but Dragon Ball as whole will aways be Goku's show even after he's gone.

[@hueyfreeman9094]

Love how people hate vegeta when he gave goku his biggest praise speech at the end of z

[@glowbies9416]

14:00 Completely shit argument that’s only based on the T.O.P and even then he didn’t know the consequences

[@RysGameZ]

I probably should have mentioned that to be honest.

[@glowbies9416]

⁠@@RysGameZyou did great man, thinking on the fly is tough and you still blasted him. Though him arguing a goku that looks and acts like a child definitely made it easier

[@RysGameZ]

@@glowbies9416 thx

[@Nousername0]

Piccolo is easily the most influential.

[@karsnstiwis]

i agree gt goku is a lot better but his arguments were nearly as good

[@astrocade9541]

I would argue that with the screen time Tien has he is pound for pound top tier.

[@manuellopez22]

I’m sorry but when u say “u get me there” that’s it u lost 😂

[@Thatskashhfr]

Ultra Ego definitely isn’t regression, it’s ultimately about balance, which life is all about! Creation and Destruction! Can’t have 1 without the other! Vegeta was so caught up in repentance, that he COULDNT progress! That’s what beerus was telling him! Ultra Ego doesn’t make him less good!

10:34 is def the most influential

[@jacebeleren9290]

Yeah if they went down the Bulma rabbit hole far enough we reach the idea that if Bulma didn't go looking for the Dragon Balls and dug Goku out of the woods we wouldn't even HAVE Dragon Ball, much less Trunks and time travel and all that other shit. That said my most influential character outside of her is Commander Red hands down and I will defend that take

[@kopacreations]

Trunks isn’t even the main character in his timeline he had to bring goku and vegeta to his to win

[@DJKmoneydog]

Bro turned you into a clean sage 🤣

[@24trn27]

27:14 I guess he casually forgets that Krillin is the one, who between him and Tien,…Krillin is the only of the humans who actually could’ve KILLED Nappa if he didn’t dodge the Destructo Disc…while Tien got outsped, his arm cut off, and BARELY did any damage to Napa even with a tribeam…

[@vivid_vibesss7456]

Trunks doesn’t exist if goku doesn’t let vegeta live, trunks doesn’t go back in time if goku didn’t die, trunks dies if gohan doesn’t kill cell, trunks dies if goku doesn’t call xeno, trunks is influenced not and influencer

[@Kingshit69]

Honestly i wanna agree with his Trunks point. But id say Bulma

[@kopacreations]

But if it wasn’t for trunks giving goku the antidote for the heart virus there wouldn’t be anymore goku that is his point goku is obviously the #1 influential character in all of db